Latest / So That's Why / Why Do We Cry When We're Sad?

Transcript

Why Do We Cry When We're Sad? · So That's Why

0:04
Jen: Welcome to the So That's Why podcast, where we unpack the
0:07
science behind everyday questions.
0:09
I'm Jen.
0:09
Chris: I'm Chris.
0:11
Matt: And I'm Matt.
0:12
Jen: Okay, so today we are answering the question: why do we cry when we're sad?
0:17
So researchers track real crying episodes.
0:21
When they track it, they find one emotional thread running
0:25
through them more than any other.
0:26
So give me some of the ideas of the most likely guesses.
0:30
Matt: Sadness.
0:31
It's in the title, Jen, uh, but it does feel a little bit like a trap
0:34
that I've just walked straight into.
0:37
Chris: Yep, similar.
0:37
It's gotta be sadness, right?
0:39
Or loss.
0:39
Something with proper weight behind it, like, um, when Nemo
0:43
loses his parents in Finding Nemo.
0:44
Matt: Oh, that is- Oh … proper sad.
0:47
Jen: Yeah.
0:49
But they're both wrong.
0:51
Chris: Surely not, though.
0:51
I mean, Nemo- Nemo's
0:53
Jen: not wrong … he can't, no.
0:53
And this is exactly why we're doing, answering this question.
0:56
So the most common thread, um, isn't sadness, it's powerlessness.
1:03
Matt: Which is not what I expected, actually- Mm … as
1:06
the answer, if I'm honest.
1:07
Chris: No, and it kind of reframes the question, doesn't it?
1:10
Um, so today, if you agree, I think we should dive into what sets a cry off-
1:16
Jen: Mm
1:17
… Chris: the circuit that produces it, what's in tears, and whether crying
1:21
actually makes you feel better.
1:23
Jen: Okay.
1:23
So an honesty note, emotional crying has only really got, like, serious scientific
1:29
evidence in the last few decades.
1:30
So some of this is solid and some genuinely isn't, but we'll say which.
1:35
And
1:36
Matt: no doubt you will, Jen.
1:39
But let's go back to powerlessness.
1:41
Powerless, that's right, yeah.
1:42
Uh, is sadness not involved at all?
1:45
Jen: Almost always, but rarely on its own.
1:48
So it turns up with, like, blended with anger, fear, frustration,
1:54
or disappointment, and the common denominator underneath it is not
1:58
being able to do anything about the situation you're in about it.
2:03
Chris: Yeah, that's right.
2:03
And, um, there's one psychologist that puts it as the tipping point being the
2:08
moment that, um, psychological demands exceed your sensory effective threshold.
2:14
So meaning that the emotion has outpaced whatever coping mechanism
2:19
you had available in the first place.
2:21
Matt: Okay.
2:22
So it isn't then about how bad the thing is, it's the gap, I guess, between that
2:28
and what you've got left in the tank.
2:29
Jen: So it looks that way, yeah, and the triggers people report
2:33
are smaller than you'd assume.
2:35
You know, loss and breakups, but also conflict, criticism, rejection,
2:41
and minor personal failures.
2:44
Chris: Yeah, which is, the interesting part, isn't it?
2:45
Because if, um, asked hypothetically, people reach kinda straight for
2:50
loss and bereavement and tragedy.
2:51
Jen: Mm.
2:52
Chris: But if you were to keep crying diaries… That's a great album
2:55
name, actually, The Crying Diaries.
2:56
Crying
2:56
Diaries.
3:00
It's like a Morris- it's like a Morrissey album-
3:01
Matt: Yeah, it is … surely on the, the species.
3:02
It is.
3:02
Yeah, yeah.
3:03
Um, yeah.
3:03
Or The Cure.
3:03
Yeah.
3:04
Chris: If you were to keep crying diaries that, and you look back,
3:08
the- they would say otherwise.
3:09
Mm. They would say it's not always about the loss and bereavement.
3:11
It's probably a lower part, and it's often something else.
3:13
Matt: Minor personal failures, I think, is the standout phrase for me.
3:17
But I can confirm the last time I cried was actually at my son's wedding.
3:21
Jen: So yeah, so that's the other half because crying isn't
3:24
only a negative emotion thing.
3:26
People, like you Matt, and lots of us cry from joy, gratitude, love, relief,
3:32
and watching someone do something selfless, and these tears have got a name.
3:37
Researchers call those sentimental or moral tears.
3:41
Chris: Yeah, so the wedding effect, it is a recognized scientific category.
3:44
So I think we should definitely play the wedding video and see you kind
3:47
of- … slowly sobbing away in the corner.
3:49
Jen: And keep a crying diary.
3:50
Chris: Absolutely, yeah.
3:51
Absolutely.
3:51
Matt: Writing in my
3:52
crying diary at the wedding.
3:53
Well, the good news for everybody, uh, 'cause you, you do not wanna see
3:56
that, I was behind the video camera, so I was recording the wedding.
4:00
Jen: I mean, I'm no better.
4:01
I can well up at a park run watching a stranger finish their first 5K- … when
4:05
they've graduated from couch to 5K.
4:07
Chris: Yeah, I, I tend to cry at park runs, but it's normally
4:10
before I've started doing one.
4:11
That's a, that's a different story.
4:13
Yeah.
4:14
Um, and let's be honest, we've all kind of used the, the something in my
4:17
eye excuse when, you know, th- things start setting us off, haven't we?
4:21
Matt: We have, and I, I love the fact that nobody ever challenges
4:23
it, which I think is possibly the kindest thing we do as a species.
4:27
Jen: Yeah, definitely.
4:28
Okay, so let's chat about what ha- actually happens in
4:32
the body then when we cry.
4:33
Chris: Okay.
4:34
So it begins in the brain's limbic system, uh, which is responsible for
4:38
processing em- emotions, and the amygdala helps determine how intense an emotion
4:44
feels, uh, while the anterior cingulate cortex helps you recognize, make sense
4:49
of, and respond to those feelings.
4:52
Matt: Okay.
4:52
So for, if I'm understanding this right, one part turns up the emotional
4:56
intensity, and the other part figures out what you're actually feeling.
5:01
Jen: Yeah, it's a good way to think about it.
5:03
Um, and from there, the signal travels to the pons in the brainstem, and
5:09
the pons activates the tear glands through a facial nerve, which is
5:13
what causes the tears to flow.
5:16
Chris: That's right, and at the same time, another region called the periaqueductal
5:20
gray coordinates the physical expression of crying, so this controls the, um,
5:25
the facial muscles and the vocalizations that produce the crying face and those
5:30
characteristic sobbing so- sounds.
5:31
It's not a, a Snapchat- filter that my kids always
5:37
put on Make videos look like you're crying.
5:39
Matt: Fair enough.
5:40
Uh, I can't- I don't know about Snapchat, Chris, as I've- Well,
5:42
Chris: me neither.
5:43
It's probably completely the wrong platform.
5:46
Jen: You know, I-
5:47
Chris: I've got no idea.
5:47
It sounds right.
5:47
No idea what the youth of today use.
5:49
Matt: No, no, uh, me either.
5:51
Um, a long time.
5:52
Anyway, so the face then, uh, and the noise aren't, uh,
5:57
a side effect of the tears.
5:59
They're driven separately, um, off the same event maybe.
6:02
Jen: Yeah, they are, and the tears, um, come from the lacrimal glands,
6:07
uh, above each eye, and there's three distinct, like, tear types
6:12
Chris: Yeah, so basal tears, they keep the eye surface lubricated all
6:16
day, whereas reflex tears respond to an irritant, which is basically the
6:20
onion episode in a single sentence.
6:22
Matt: Yeah, an episode that I'm still recovering from.
6:25
Uh, the onions still keep winning the battle.
6:28
Jen: And then you have emotional tears, and they are triggered by feeling, so
6:33
it's the same glands, but a different trigger, and no rigorous evidence
6:38
that any other species produces, like, the third kind, the emotional tears.
6:44
Matt: So we're unique.
6:45
Jen: We are unique.
6:46
Matt: Okay, so what's happening then at, uh, in the eye when tears
6:50
start running down your face?
6:51
Chris: Yeah, so the glands produce fluid faster than the tear ducts can drain
6:55
it, so the drainage is working fine, it's just been outpaced, so the surplus
7:00
goes over the edge and down your face.
7:02
Jen: So think about it like a sink with the tap on harder than
7:06
the plug hole can cope with.
7:08
Chris: Yeah, that's better than the way I put it, to be, to be fair.
7:11
Um, and so the lacrimal glands are activated by acetylcholine and by
7:17
vasoactive intestinal peptide, which is a signaling molecule with a very misleading
7:22
name because it has absolutely nothing to do with the intestines or the stomach.
7:27
Matt: That's good to know because the names, uh, they're not, all
7:31
these words, Chris, just don't help in your explanation really.
7:34
Jen: They're going in, Matt.
7:35
They might just come out one day in a conversation.
7:37
You'd be like, "Where did that come from?"
7:39
Matt: Yeah.
7:40
Jen: So the other part involves the autonomic nervous system, which has
7:44
got two branches working together.
7:46
So when crying begins, the sympathetic activity rises, so your heart
7:52
rate increases, skin conductance changes, and the body shows that
7:57
classic fight or flight pattern.
8:00
Chris: It does, and then at the same time you've got the
8:02
parasympathetic, um, activity.
8:05
So this is the system involved in calming and recovery, and that
8:08
initially decreases, then rises again as the crying episode comes to an end.
8:13
And it's that rebound that may help explain the sense of relief that,
8:17
or calmness that some people feel after a kind of crying episode.
8:21
Jen: Mm.
8:22
Matt: Okay, so the calm isn't at the start of the cry.
8:25
Maybe it's, uh, on the way out of one.
8:27
Jen: Yeah, and that leads us to the next question: what are
8:31
emotional tears actually made of?
8:34
Um, and this is where we need to be careful about how
8:37
confidently we frame the evidence.
8:39
Chris: Yeah, we do.
8:40
So some studies have reported higher levels of prolactin and
8:45
adrenocorticotropic hormone, and these are two stress-related hormones,
8:51
and alongside compounds like, um- Leucine enkephalin, uh, potassium and
8:57
manganese in emotional tears compared to fa- uh, basal or reflex tears
9:04
Matt: I have to say, are all these words you have just said not actually wanting
9:08
to make you cry when you say them?
9:10
Chris: I think if, if I've got the pronunciation right, I'll probably
9:12
cry- … a few tears of joy.
9:14
You never know.
9:15
When I wa- when I watch it back, I've probably got none of them right.
9:18
Yeah, you rehearse- Tend the tears will flow … over and over.
9:20
Matt: Yeah, yeah.
9:21
Chris: I need some more cue cards behind you.
9:22
That, that'd be nice.
9:23
Matt: Yeah, yeah.
9:24
Jen: So the important thing you said is some studies.
9:27
So these findings still need, you know, stronger replication.
9:30
So they may turn out to be accurate, but we shouldn't treat them as settled fact.
9:35
Chris: Yeah, and it's really important, isn't it?
9:37
And it matters because those chemical findings are part of the foundation
9:41
for one of the most popular ideas about crying, and that is that tears physically
9:45
flush stress toxins out of the body.
9:47
Matt: Yeah, and that's something I have definitely heard.
9:50
Jen: Yeah, most of us have, and it's an appealing idea, isn't it, that
9:54
a t- you know, tears can flush out stress toxins, but it hasn't stood up
9:59
well under scientific scrutiny, and one of the influential early studies
10:04
supporting it wasn't successfully repeated by later researchers.
10:10
Matt: So if I feel better after a cry, it's not because I've
10:12
emptied some kind of emotional toxin out of my bloodstream then?
10:17
Chris: I mean, m- maybe not necessarily definitely that, but you know, you keep
10:21
telling yourself- … it's all fine.
10:22
Yeah.
10:22
Yeah.
10:23
Um, but there is real biology happening here.
10:25
It's just not necessarily a detox process.
10:28
So crying involves, uh, chemical signals linked to stress regulation
10:32
and social connection, and it's, um, substances including oxytocin,
10:38
there's vasopressin, and there are endogenous opioids like the enkephalins
10:43
and prolactin I mentioned earlier.
10:45
Jen: So the chemistry points at connection and stress, not detox,
10:50
which turns out to be a bit of a theme.
10:52
Matt: So the variation between people is enormous, though, isn't it?
10:55
I mean, I know people who cry weekly, um, and I guess there's people
11:01
that I've never actually seen cry.
11:02
Like, my wife would say she's never seen me cry.
11:05
Jen: No, 'cause you were behind the camera at the wedding.
11:07
Matt: That's true.
11:08
Jen: Yeah, the variation is enormous, and it's biological,
11:12
psychological, and social all at once.
11:15
So testosterone appears to raise the crying threshold, holding back
11:21
the tears, while prolactin, which is higher in women, appears to lower it
11:26
Chris: Yeah, can we just say if anyone else has got any footage
11:28
from Matt Sutton's wedding?
11:31
I, I just wanna see if anybody caught you.
11:33
You know, just one angle of you sobbing- Yeah, yeah … into the camera.
11:35
Matt: My wife would like to
11:36
see it too,
11:36
I'm sure.
11:38
Chris: Um, so another thing is personality, and it, it
11:41
comes into this a lot too.
11:43
So, uh, people who are high in, uh, neuroticism or empathy, they cry more.
11:50
Um, dismissively attached people cry less and suppress more, and securely attached
11:54
people cry in a more regulated way.
11:56
I guess none of this is particularly surprising, right?
11:58
Matt: No.
11:59
No.
11:59
No.
11:59
And I guess the same event doesn't mean the same thing or happen in
12:04
the same way in two people, right?
12:06
It's not necessarily that one's trying harder than the other.
12:08
Jen: Yeah, not at all.
12:10
Um, and the difference between genders is one of the most
12:14
consistent worldwide as well.
12:15
So women crying, um, they cry roughly two to four times more often than men.
12:22
So there's one classic estimate puts it at, which I love this, 5.3 times a month
12:29
for women against 1.3 times for men.
12:32
Matt: I love that, the 5.3 and the 1.3.
12:35
So there's people out there who sort of get .3 of the way through a cry, 30%,
12:40
and they stop because the quota's filled.
12:42
Jen: Yeah, that's enough.
12:43
Stop now.
12:43
Not a full cry today.
12:45
Chris: Yeah, I'm fine.
12:46
I'm still cry- I've got it under control.
12:47
Don't worry.
12:48
I'm just 30% of the way through.
12:49
I'm fine.
12:50
Matt: No, it doesn't, Chris.
12:51
It doesn't.
12:52
You can't, especially if you're watching Finding Nemo or E-
12:55
or ET.
12:55
Chris: If I'm watching Finding Nemo, that quota's going up- Yeah.
12:58
you know, significantly.
13:00
Okay.
13:00
It's very, it's very distressing, you know?
13:02
It is.
13:02
It is.
13:02
I mean, I know he, he finds him in the end.
13:03
No, l- let's not talk about it.
13:06
Pixar have got a lot to answer for.
13:07
Matt: They have.
13:08
He, he still doesn't get his mum back though, does he?
13:09
That's outrageous.
13:10
No.
13:11
Jen: No.
13:11
Stop it.
13:12
You'll set him off.
13:12
I
13:14
Chris: f- I'd forgotten that bit.
13:16
Jen: Okay, moving on.
13:18
Right.
13:18
So the gap isn't uniform either.
13:20
Women cry more in conflict, men re- relatively more at positive events
13:26
and for loss, Nemo, and rejection.
13:30
There's, there's a very little gap though at all.
13:33
Chris: It's good you said Nemo though, 'cause you said
13:35
loss, then started laughing.
13:36
I
13:38
thought that's- … it's a, it's a bit harsh.
13:39
Yes, it's a bit harsh.
13:39
Matt: Yeah.
13:39
It's like, what's going on here?
13:42
Jen: I meant the loss of his dad.
13:43
Poor Nemo.
13:46
Chris: It isn't purely about biology.
13:48
Wealthier countries with greater freedom of expression, they show
13:52
larger gender gaps when it comes to crying, while in some lower income
13:56
countries where the gap is much smaller, and this is because the norms can
14:00
discourage emotional display generally.
14:02
Matt: Which feels sort of slightly counterintuitive, doesn't it really?
14:05
'Cause you'd assume more freedom would actually close the gap and not widen it.
14:09
Jen: You would, but your own threshold moves day to day as well, so you've
14:15
got, like, which, which adds to it.
14:17
You've got sleep deprivation, alcohol, stress, and your
14:21
mental health all lower it.
14:23
Matt: Which explains why Finding Nemo might do nothing on a Tuesday
14:28
and completely finishes you, especially you Chris, on a Friday.
14:31
Jen: Or a Monday for Chris maybe.
14:34
Chris: I know.
14:34
Same clownfish, different effect.
14:36
What can I say?
14:38
Um, and things change across our life sto- stages too.
14:41
I don't mean in terms of movies, but if you think of infants, I mean, they
14:46
cry from birth, but that's acoustic.
14:49
They don't actually produce visible tears until roughly four to eight weeks old.
14:53
Jen: Yeah, and the, the frequency of, like, crying episodes, that,
14:57
that, like, gets less from infancy through to, you know, adolescence.
15:01
Um, physical pain dominates in childhood, but that becomes a
15:06
more minor trigger in adults.
15:08
Um-
15:09
Matt: Yeah, so the reasons change completely, I guess, as we grow
15:12
older, but not just the amount.
15:15
Jen: Mm.
15:15
Chris: Yeah, that's right.
15:16
I'd say they broaden.
15:17
So adults move, um, lar- from largely egocentric triggers towards empathetic
15:22
kind of pain for others and feelings about fairness and injustice,
15:26
which is not a bad thing, right?
15:27
Jen: No, not at all.
15:29
Um, but older adults, they cry at more positive, meaningful
15:32
things as well, like weddings- Mm
15:34
like we've chatted about, reunions, milestones, possibly reflecting
15:40
a stronger sense of connection to their family and their community.
15:44
Matt: Yeah, which is the classic dad, isn't it?
15:46
He's gone sort of from stone face to welling up at Nemo or ET or something.
15:51
Jen: Mm.
15:52
Chris: Yeah, so when it comes back to the kind of question we're looking at
15:55
today, the honest answer is it depends, which I know is a bit annoying and
15:59
hardly a great conclusion, but there, there are so many parts to this- Yeah
16:02
aren't there?
16:04
Jen: No, but we can start with what people believe, because it's overwhelming.
16:08
So over 70% say crying makes them feel better, and mental health
16:13
professionals broadly agree with that.
16:16
Matt: Yeah, and that's about as close to a consensus as you're gonna get on anything.
16:20
Jen: Mm-hmm.
16:21
Chris: You'd think so, wouldn't you?
16:22
But then the controlled lab studies say the absolute opposite.
16:25
So people who cry watching sad movies, um, report feeling
16:29
worse immediately afterwards.
16:30
Jen: Think I'd cry watching a sad movie in a lab
16:35
. Chris: That's a good point, yeah.
16:36
Matt: It's not a great place to watch a sad movie, is it?
16:38
Jen: Yep.
16:38
Matt: So it can't be then that the research tells us that we're all wrong.
16:42
That can't be where this all ends, surely.
16:44
Jen: Yeah.
16:44
No, it isn't.
16:45
And the resolu- resolution seems to be timing.
16:49
So one study tracked mood at several points after a sad film.
16:53
So the criers felt worse right after, um, recovered within 20
16:58
minutes, and by 90 minutes they were better than before the film began.
17:03
Chris: Yeah.
17:03
And that pattern wasn't seen in people who didn't cry.
17:07
So
17:08
Matt: the lab studies then weren't wrong, they were measuring, I guess, at the worst
17:13
possible moment, directly after the film.
17:15
Jen: Yeah, that's it.
17:16
Though a daily diary study of women found about only 30% felt
17:22
better after crying, 60% had no change, and roughly 9% felt worse.
17:28
Matt: So even at its best, it's not reliable, is it?
17:31
So what describes then which group we're in?
17:34
Chris: Yeah, so it almost entirely comes down to context.
17:37
So, um, social support is the biggest factor.
17:40
Crying while being comforted by a close friend or a partner predicts a mood
17:44
improvement, whereas crying alone in an, like, an unsupportive environment doesn't.
17:51
Jen: And whether the cry led anywhere matters too.
17:54
So if it produced new understanding or resolved the
17:57
problem, it feels more relieving.
18:00
Um, and crying about a positive event beats crying about
18:05
someone else's suffering.
18:07
Chris: Yeah, and people who are depressed rarely report any improvement at all,
18:12
which is worth knowing if you've been told that a good cry will improve things,
18:16
and for you it just consistently doesn't.
18:18
Jen: Mm.
18:19
Matt: Yeah, there's a real permission in that, isn't there?
18:21
You're not actually then doing crying the wrong way.
18:25
Jen: No.
18:26
You don't need to try harder.
18:27
Um, but there's another variable, and this one's my favorite.
18:32
People tend to feel better crying alone or with one other person, but with
18:37
two or more it makes them feel worse.
18:40
Matt: Oh, yeah.
18:40
Think about crying in the office, 'cause, you know, you cry, one
18:44
colleague, that's a human connection.
18:46
The second person comes along, turns it into a bit of an incident.
18:50
Someone third comes- a third person comes along, you've got someone
18:53
fetching a chair, like, I don't know, maybe you've fainted or something.
18:55
Jen: Yeah.
18:56
Chris: Yeah, and on top of all of that, you end up managing everyone else's
18:59
concern they've got for you instead of thinking about the thing you were
19:02
actually upset about in the first place.
19:04
Jen: But one thing, um, just worth noting is crying isn't
19:09
universally good for you physically.
19:11
So there was two studies in 2022 that found it doesn't relieve physical pain and
19:17
may actually lower your pain threshold.
19:19
Matt: So crying because someone or because something maybe hurts
19:24
doesn't help with the hurting?
19:25
Jen: Not according to that work, no.
19:28
Um, and excessive crying unrelated to an emotion, that has an actual proper
19:34
name, epiphora, and it's treated as a medical issue rather than a benefit
19:39
Chris: It is, and as is persistent crying linked to migraines,
19:43
linked to, uh, multiple sclerosis, to brain injury or stroke.
19:48
So just to do my Captain Sensible bit for a moment, if I may.
19:51
Matt: Dun,
19:51
dun, dun,
19:52
dun.
19:52
Chris: If- … crying has changed for you and it just isn't tracking at all
19:57
with how you feel, it is something worth keeping in mind, and may- might
20:00
be something worth getting looked at.
20:01
Jen: Which people probably never think about.
20:03
Matt: No.
20:04
No, it's, uh, it's not something, is it, you would
20:07
Jen: track?
20:07
Go to your doctor and say, "I'm crying too much."
20:09
It, like- Or I'm crying
20:10
Matt: differently.
20:10
Jen: Yeah.
20:11
Matt: Yeah.
20:12
Jen: Mad.
20:12
Matt: It is.
20:13
And I guess never apologize for this useful bit, right?
20:17
So, um, don't apologize for the, the crying and the good
20:20
bits, but what are tears for?
20:24
Jen: Okay.
20:24
So the lead in account is that they work as a signal to other people, and
20:29
there's a clever experiment behind it.
20:31
So researchers took photographs of faces and digitally removed the tears.
20:37
Chris: They did.
20:37
So it was the same faces with tears visible, and what happened is they
20:41
were judged as sadder and more in need of help, and people reported
20:45
greater willingness to comfort them purely because of that appearance.
20:48
Matt: Mm-hmm.
20:48
Yeah.
20:49
It's interesting, isn't it?
20:49
So same face, same expression.
20:51
The only difference then is the water on the face, and that changes
20:55
how much help you were offered.
20:57
Jen: So the thinking is that tears actually strengthen, like, social bonds.
21:02
They prompt that caregiving and reduce aggression in whoever's watching.
21:07
So an extension of what a baby's crying does.
21:11
Chris: So the tears aren't really for me then, uh, even at my son's wedding.
21:15
They're for whoever's in the room and not videoing it.
21:18
Jen: Which is why context decides how you feel afterwards.
21:21
So a signal only works if there's somebody there to receive it.
21:25
Okay, so why do we cry when we're sad?
21:29
Chris: So it's because sadness we can't do anything about pushes the emotional
21:33
load beyond what we can handle in that moment, and the, um, the limbic system
21:39
passes that to the brainstem, which tells the lacrimal glands to produce more
21:43
fluid than the tear ducts can handle.
21:46
Matt: And the guess we both got wrong at the start, in fact, was the whole answer.
21:51
It was never really the sadness, it was the powerlessness, uh, underneath it all.
21:57
Jen: And the tears are a signal read, um, by other people as a request for help.
22:03
So a good cry isn't a system failing, it's a message going out, and
22:08
whether you feel better depends far more on who's around to answer it.
22:14
So that's why.
22:16
That is it for this week.
22:17
Make sure you hit that subscribe button.
22:19
We're unpacking the science behind everyday questions.
22:23
Tell us in the comments what you'd like us to explore next.
22:28
Thanks for geeking out with us.
22:30
But for now, that's it from me.
22:32
Chris: That's it from me.
22:33
Matt: And that's it from me.
22:34
Jen: Bye for now.