Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / The Language of Behavior with Charle Peck and Josh Stamper
Transcript
- Ross Romano: Welcome everyone. You are listening to the Authority Podcast here on the Be Podcast Network. Thanks as always for being with us. Pleased to have you here for this conversation, which will be a nice companion to our previous episode. And it'll dive a little further into topics around school culture, student behavior, and compassionate school communities. My guests are Charle Peck and Josh Stamper. Charle is the co-author in addition to the book we're discussing today. She's also the co-author of a book called Improving School Mental Health, thriving School Community Solution, A Revolutionary program to Optimize Student Learning outcomes and Wellbeing. She holds an MS in education [00:01:00] and an MS in social work, and it's a 20 year veteran of K 12 education. Her unique lens. As a high school teacher turned clinical therapist and her work with adolescents and families in crisis makes her stories relevant and captivating to those struggling in today's system. We hope to hear some of those today. And Josh is the dedicated educator, speaker, author, and creator of Aspire to Lead. The rich background in teaching and school administration. He brings invaluable insight into the challenges and opportunities within the education system. His personal journey as a struggling student combined with nine years of experience as a middle school administrator, fuels his passion for creating supportive and Transformative learning environments. Their book that they've co-authored, the focus of today's conversation is called The Language of Behavior, A Framework to Elevate Student Success. It is. Winner of the 2025 Firebird Educational Book Award, and let's get into it. Charle and Josh, welcome to the show. Charle Peck: Thanks for having us. We're so glad to be here. Josh Stamper: It's [00:02:00] great to see you again, Ross. Ross Romano: Yes, great to have you both. Great to see you. And excited to talk about this book. And as I kind of referenced a little bit in the intro there I just. I had an episode with Dr. Bill Penal and he is co-author of a book called Creating Compassionate Change in School Communities. And your book also refers to a compassionate approach to school culture and student behavior. So would love to start by talking about that word, compassion, what it means to you. How it's foundational to your approach, right? And just like getting our listeners in the mindset, I think for a lot of what we're gonna talk here about today. Charle would love to start with you and Josh, you can certainly add to that. Charle Peck: Yeah, what a great word. Honestly, compassion just means we humanize people. We make them just realize that we're all in this together. Just trying to get through life and find some joy and understand that we'll go [00:03:00] through all the emotions, but I. We all experience that as humans. I mean, that's what we have in common. So we have to be compassionate about what's going on with them in the moment in order to what we do, I say this as a therapist all the time, is meet them where they are. And so compassion is really the foundation, truly, of any kind of way that we're gonna engage with other people. Josh Stamper: Definitely. And I would say that in addition to compassion is empathy with some of the things that we've written in the language of behavior and really this lens of understanding what's truly going on underneath. Because a lot of our students are coming in every single day and. They're in survival mode. They're just trying to get through their day. Education is really not the top priority for them. And when we look at the word discipline and the root of it, it really means a disciple, someone that's learning, and unfortunately through the discipline matrix or the pre procedures that are constructed in most. Traditional school settings. What we're seeing is that it's more about the punishment than actually looking at the restoration of what's going on and getting to the bottom of it, and then also teaching the [00:04:00] appropriate behaviors that we want from our students. So, we've got our three tenants that we've kind of constructed to help. I. Really find an easy way for our educators to have compassion, have empathy, and then also just some additional strategies that they can be proactive. But then also when students unfortunately do make mistakes, they have the tools to make sure that they're teaching the appropriate behavior moving forward. (ad here) Ross Romano: So, Josh, you've just done the relatively rare thing here. I mean, we have lots of tremendous guests with lots of great ideas, but it's not too often I think that somebody, shares a simple concept that I've never thought about before. And the connection between discipline and the word disciple is one that I never thought about before. So there you go. And would love to dive into that a little bit more. And I have. You know, a note here, you write about some of the outdated disciplinary practices in schools and now thinking about the [00:05:00] connection right between that word and you know, how it might connect to our outdated, model of what the relationship between educator and student is, what a student's supposed to be and how those practices, then we would understand why they need to be updated based on updating that, that understanding. Right. And so, would love to spend a little more time on that. First, like what are I guess what is. What should the understanding of those roles, educator, student, right, teacher, disciple and you know, what should that be? And then how does that inform our understanding of disciplinary practices and why they're outdated? Right. And that it's not, simply a matter of just wanting to do things differently, I guess, right? Or or just changing for the sake of change, but [00:06:00] that the practices need to evolve with our evolved understanding of the people that are in schools and what they're there to do. Josh Stamper: Charle, you wanna take that or you want me to take it? Charle Peck: Yeah. Well, I know you'll have a good practical answer and then I'll follow up. Josh Stamper: Okay. Yeah. Well, so Ross, looking at the data, I mean, we have a ton of that specifically in the beginning of our book in regards to looking at why, what we usually have in our tool belt, which is what detentions and suspension, outsource. Suspension, even expulsion obviously for the higher level and alternative programs for those high level. Infractions the discipline shows and John Hattie's probably got the one that I'm, that's comes to mind first is just, it looks at factors that are in the schools in regards to what can we do as educators to help increase learning. It's very simple as far as the data, and he is got a plus minus, well, one of the worst ones that we do as educators is. Outta school suspension and expulsions for obvious reasons, right? If we're taking 'em out of the educational environment, of course we're gonna see a lack of learning. And [00:07:00] the kids, unfortunately, that need our assistance and our support the most are the ones that are getting kicked outta classes left and right. And so for myself as an administrator, specifically a very young first year administrator, I was fed up, I was thinking, I am not making a difference in the lives of my students. My, my discipline data was going up every single month and. Really the relationship between my students and my teachers were only getting worse. The relationship between myself and the students were getting worse, and I kind of just threw up my hands and was like, I need to find something different. I need to do something that is creative, like you said, Ross, that is going to improve the relationship that I have, the improve the idea of I want to go into this classroom, or I want to go into this school. And then also that they're gonna learn the appropriate. Things to move forward, not just to be successful in the classroom, but be successful adults. And I think that's where we were lacking was we were just shoving them in a room or sending 'em out into the community. And what was happening was we just got this vicious cycle [00:08:00] of our students making poor choices in the school, but then also not getting the skills that they needed. So then they were making mistakes out into the community. And of course we know what that looks like if they're making. You know, poor decisions in the community. And so police were involved. We had a lot of neighborhoods and apartment complexes that were upset with us because they're like, why are you sending your students out into the community and you know, having students make poor choices. So for myself, that was kind of looking at not only the data, but then also my own experience as administrator, just feeling like a huge failure. Charle, do you have any other concepts as far as like why traditional discipline's failing us? Charle Peck: Yeah, I mean the simple reason is punishment isn't teaching them the skills they need to thrive. I mean, they really need those, and I mean, we gotta link it back to the adults. So educators are really struggling. I mean, we have a school mental health system that is in chaos. We're reactive. We're just so unstable there, and nobody seems to know exactly what to do, but everybody's [00:09:00] trying. I will tell you, Josh, I mean the people we work with. They're trying so hard. And so Ross, I know the people that are listening would love practical skills and tools themselves. I mean, that's what people want. They want to walk away with that. That's why we wrote the three Tenets framework, because we're addressing that as a systemic issue to give tools and strategies. And so we talk about how, like, of course, behaviors, communication, a lot of people already know that, but we try to say it, it's like. You know, look at it like it's not threatening. It feels threatening. Trust me, I know it. I've been on that end of it as a teacher. But really they're just, they're little people. They're little nervous systems sitting in your classroom and they're not as skilled as we are. Actually, I will say too, a lot of teachers are not skilled the way they want to be. It's not just even that they need to be, because we've changed in education, like we don't know how to respond effectively to kids' needs, and so they're acting out. But we're acting out because we are dysregulated. I know [00:10:00] firsthand I was there, and so teachers are asking us. To be equipped and not to be therapists. They don't need to be therapists, but they do need some more skills that they're asking for. And so what that will do is help with teacher retention problems that the system is seeing. So we don't have to always have the punitive approach. We actually have a better way of doing it. And then also it re-energizes teachers and it makes them confident so anybody knows. When you're confident, you just respond more effectively anyway. And kids know when you're not confident versus when you are that firm voice versus that shaky voice goes a very long way. So those are just the practical ways we're addressing it, not only as a system, but looking at the human. Going back to the compassion really is about the human standing in front of all those kids too struggling. Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. And to this point of, behavior as a form of communication that relates to students, of course, relates to everybody, relates to parents, communities. And I'm thinking about the [00:11:00] kind of macro picture and kind of understanding and responding to that first to create an environment where the individual. Behaviors can be responded to. So for example, like what are school leaders doing to absorb and respond to and act on the behaviors and reactions and attitudes they're getting regarding the relevance of the learning that's being provided or the things that they should be communicating to parents and families about objectives that they have in their school programs. They're investing in, why they're doing certain things. A lot of the things that teachers end up fielding a lot of those agitations and complaints because I. Nobody is out there talking about it. Right? And then if those things are taken care of and that gives everybody a [00:12:00] better starting point in their relationship to the learning, then can the teacher better attune to and respond to individual student behaviors, understanding maybe having a better understanding of what might be. The causal factors, what are some of the you know, responses and interventions or just relationship building techniques, et cetera, that can improve them if we are kind of working in concert in that way. So, Charle, like having come from role as a teacher, then a clinician and then Josh is from the school leader perspective. Maybe you can. Talk about those dynamics a little bit and the need for you referenced of course, the things that teachers are doing and can do, but I think it's really important that they not be left alone to do it right. And it makes it unmanageable when you have a couple dozen different. Questions and thoughts and feelings coming your way and nobody has gone about [00:13:00] the context setting for what even are we attempting to do? What's the vision here? Are we designing you know, an environment that is built around students and their needs and their interests? Charle Peck: Yeah, and if you look at the whole community as a system and everyone's in it together, working together. That it is so powerful, that's when you're gonna influence the positive school climate. But it does come from each individual having a willingness to get skilled, to understand, open their mind, to have that compassion and not point the finger. Probably most importantly, not point the finger and blame other people, because the real changes we all know comes from within ourselves. It always goes back to that no matter what. And parents are feeling it too. I mean, parents definitely could use some skills and they could. They could shift perspective as well, but so could we. All of us can. Even kids, I mean, we can give kids ownership too, but when we're all doing this thing together, that's when it's helpful. And so that environment really does drive [00:14:00] behavior. They're seeing a system where we've been trying to give kids SEL skills for over 30 years now, since 1994, and those skills are so important. We have to keep following that model. The problem is we haven't equipped the adults. So we keep telling the kids, we'll just go back into those stress stressful environments with those burned out teachers and those parents who are overwhelmed. But you need to function well. Well, they're seeing others not functioning well. So it's really tough. But systemically we can do it. We just have to work together. But I know it's a trust issue as well. So Josh, we'll have some really great things to add here Josh Stamper: Yeah, so Ross, as far as the admin lens, like we really did try to. One, make a decision based on the data, right? I already talked about like how our data was going up and up every single month and a lot of times when we were looking at the referrals, it was real low level infractions that students were being sent out for, right? It was a disruption or disrespect, and so I. We didn't wanna put it all on the teachers because obviously they needed support. But when we went to them [00:15:00] and asked 'em we found that the number one deterrent for them was time. They wanted to have that conversation with the student, but they also had 28 to 30 other students that were in the classroom that they also needed to attend to. And so, they didn't want an audience. They wanted to have like one-on-one time. So one of the things that we wrote about in the book was this thing that we implemented, which was called the push and model. And the push and model was the opportunity for the teacher to have that one-on-one time with the student. So someone would. Relieve them when they call for a push in. So they call the front office and maybe it was a counselor or a coach or it really could be anyone that is off. And we had a schedule for that. So they go in and relieve the teacher for three to five minutes and allow the teacher to go out with that student and just get really a bottom line of, Hey, what's going on? Right? There's something that's off, or they can give some specific examples, but really finding the underlying reason for the behavior. And it was so important because a lot of things happen One. The student wasn't kicked out, right? There wasn't a fracture in that relationship. Two, they were getting time with that student to build more trust and a stronger relationship. But three, they were [00:16:00] also getting an understanding and reconfirming the expectation about. Are you going to follow the expectations to get back into the educational environment? And so by doing this push and model, what we found was the teachers loved it for one, but two, we were also getting a ton of time back into the classroom and way less time in either the front offers or the access room. And so because of that, we saw a direct relationship, obviously with grades, but then also our state testing. So we literally gave our teachers time, but we also gave our students thousands of minutes back into the classroom. Charle Peck: Yeah. Yeah. I, let me, I'll add to that too, because it really is a, that team approach is so critical and Josh and I talk about this a lot. One of the first things that we address is the student referral process, because what we're finding is that teachers feel like they're completely alone, and loneliness underlies so many issues in mental health, not only with kids, but clearly with adults as well. I mean, it is so polarizing too. It feels. Just don't function at your best. And so that student rep [00:17:00] referral process, what happens is we learn to communicate and the teacher learns to pass the kid off with people who are more skilled. And now the therapeutic or the school counselor or the social worker, they can take care of those skills. But here's what I found when I was teaching. I had a student that I, if I had a student that I was really concerned about and I referred them, I sent an email or I verbalized it. I didn't know. Anything was happening with them. I couldn't trust that anything was happening with them. So I didn't refer them. I took that on myself because there wasn't communication back. So strengthening that student referral process is huge because it, the communication is good. The kids don't get lost. It goes to the right, they go to the right people for help it with the right skills. But then the teacher also. Participates. We just have to make it so easy to do so that they'll do it. But that's those kind of skills and tools have to be in place just like, looking at the environment inventory, for example. When we're working with teachers, we say, okay, let's do this checklist. What's going on in the [00:18:00] environment that might be contributing to those behaviors that you're seeing? Where the relationship inventory that. Josh, it was awesome. Josh came up with that. I love it. We use it all the time. So those tools are so tangible and practical, but they've gotta be used together. Ross Romano: Yeah, absolutely. And. Right. And as a collective right to know if I, like, I know what my job is and what I can do, I know that the next person knows what they should be doing, and we're all kind of trying to do this together. Nobody feels isolated or like I'm the only one who's attempting this and I'm supported in it. If I'm a teacher that, that when I am use judgment to respond in the way that. We feel is effective that decision will be supported, that I'll maybe get help if needed, but also just have backup to say, yes, this is what we're supposed to be doing here. Right? We're on the same page regarding what we believe. Discipline should [00:19:00] be and shouldn't be. And we're trying to be effective with that. You, so you've referenced your the three tenets. So let's talk about those to make sure that we're filling the gaps here. Who wants to take Josh, maybe you wanna just give the list out of what the tenants are and then we can dive in more specifically, but that'll sort of start to sketch out the framework. Josh Stamper: Now of course I'll give the three tenets and I'm gonna have Charle start with the first one because she does a brilliant job of. Of working through that. But three te is consider your environment exploring the breakdown. And the third one is responding intentionally. But I'll pass it off to Charle as she's gonna talk through the first one. Consider your environment. Charle Peck: It's so important, right? As a therapist, I'm considering the biopsychosocial model and environment is a huge piece. That I look at I always look at the kids as a little nervous system, like I always say to Josh, but the environment is going to elicit some feeling, some security or insecurity. And so we've gotta consider our physical space and our social space. And [00:20:00] so the physical space, the sensors, like what? What's gonna make my sensory go off or be overstimulating? And so I might look around the room and think, wow these walls have lots of great stuff on them. It might be a little cluttered. It might actually overwhelm our kids or the lighting, those kinds of things that we typically think about or the space that we're in. We're setting up the desk. We always think of those things. But what about our social space? How are we positioning ourselves around our kids? Are we hovering? I mean, I always say, even with our 18-year-old students, we've got to get down to their level. They actually hate when we invade their space or hover over them, and they will respond very well if we just. Swing back a little bit, one step back and get down to their level tone of voice, the way we look to them, if we consider what that might look like. And then sometimes Ross, oh my gosh, these kids may be set off by something that happened at home or the day before. They're coming into your class. They hear a word, they smell a sound. Smell a smell, hear a sound. Or hear your tone of [00:21:00] voice or a look on your face, that just sets 'em off and they don't even know why. So there's so much to consider and we say consider because we don't want to add more to the workload. We just want it to be a consideration so it doesn't feel so big. Josh Stamper: So the second one is exploring the breakdown, and that's really looking more at communication and more so too, like non-verbally. And so Ross, I'll give you an example. I got called on the radio to go to a classroom. There was maybe. A minute left before the bell was about to ring. When I walked in, the student was sitting down and they were stiff as a board. I could see their fists were balled up, eyes were glossed over, and it looked like they were about to explode. I mean, you could see just red in their face. And so the teacher was gonna go and talk to the student and then just. Quickly, it just was like, just let's give it a minute. So the bell rang and all of the students exited, and thankfully it was this teacher's off period, the next period, so no students were coming back into the classroom. And so I just literally just went [00:22:00] through all of the things I listed off with her and I said, what is that communicating to you? And she was a younger teacher and so she didn't really have an answer. She just wanted to go and communicate more to the student and have that conversation. And I just had to let her know like, Hey. There's nothing going into this child's brain right now. Like they're completely shut down and it's gonna take 30, 45 minutes before they get regulated to the point where we can actually have a conversation with them. And so that's really what that chapter is all about. And that tenant is exploring the breakdown is really talking through just how a lot of our students are they've either had chronic stress or they've had trauma to the point where, what Charle was talking about before, they had these triggers where they're just in survival mode and they just shut down. And so. Sometimes it's not just a shutdown, but it's the fight, flight, or freeze mode. And our teachers a lot of times don't even get this training in their licensure programs to understand what the behavior equates to. And so when we're working with either at a conference or working with teachers at a school, like we actually go through [00:23:00] and work through, okay, if you see this. This is the mode that this child is, and we have to like decode the behaviors to understand where they're at. And so a lot of times we have to just give them space. But then also that teach piece, right? We talked about this with the word discipline is making sure that we get them to understand the emotions that they're feeling too. Because a lot of our kids. Are not equipped to know what the emotion is, how they're feeling, but then also how to regulate themselves. And so we have to teach that to our students also. And so a lot of times as an administrator I was in that teach piece in the office with my students. And then the last one is responding intentionally, which is more about the restoration of. Poor behavior. Obviously, like I said, our kids are gonna make mistakes every single day every day. As an administrator, there was some behaviors that I had to work through, and it's that teach piece, but then also the restoration of what happened. So them understanding and taking ownership of what they did, who it affected, but then also repairing the harm and building [00:24:00] that accountability. So sometimes people think of like words like restorative practices. They think, oh, they don't get any consequences. There's no punishment with that. And that's not true at all. It's just that it's hand in hand with that teach piece and that restoration of either a relationship or maybe it's something that they broke or maybe it's something else that needs to be restored. And so being creative in how we handle that and that process. (ad here) Ross Romano: Like, what is accountability in this? Like, what does it look like? Who who are the different people that have that are accountable? Right? What And 'cause just as the students are gonna make mistakes, I assume the adults are gonna. Make mistakes and Right. You know, nobody's perfect in how they are identifying causes or responding or you know, but also, so there's that, the self-compassion piece and like understanding that kind of the, a growth mindset, right. Keep trying to get better but not [00:25:00] meaning that, that doesn't detract from accountability to try to get it right and to, you know. Correct. Mistakes, same way presumably that you're working through with students. But but yeah. How do you hold students accountable? How do you hold yourself accountable? So on. Charle Peck: Yeah. Josh Stamper: I mean, as far as that goes, like it, yeah. Everything. I mean, people, human beings are human beings and so we're talking and I think. Charle mentioned this before I made this, what you're gonna say, Charle, but you know, the things that we're discussing are for all ages. Some of our teachers are going through some really tragic things. I mean, I can think of a hundred different times when someone came into my office and told me about something just horrific that's going in their lives. And as an administrator going in the classroom, I wouldn't have ever understood that or knew that something was going on in their lives because they put a smile on their face. They made connections with their kids and. The kids were learning in the classroom, they're doing phenomenal things. But you know, for myself, I needed to use the same practices with them to figure out what was going on in their world, what resources they needed, and then also have [00:26:00] compassion, empathy as a leader to make sure that they could get through this tough time to get on the other side of it. Charle Peck: Absolutely, and they will be accountable when they feel confident in your space that you've got their back, that you're not trying to judge them. I mean, that's one of the underlying problems we have is that polarization. And the unfair judgment, it's okay to judge, but when we judge people unfairly and don't catch ourself making the assumptions that are often just so wrong based on big fat lies, then it's hard to feel like we can be accountable. We just feel like we can keep getting beaten down and unheard and invalidated really. And that's not a good place to work from. I mean, that's not a good place to live from. So these kids will become accountable and so will the adults that you work with and lead. When you create that space for them to do that securely. Ross Romano: What do you do when the other adults are unaccountable? What's that? I mean, I mean, truly right. If you're an individual in the building, you're trying to do. All the things you're [00:27:00] supposed to do and you're not getting that mutual accountability or that support like how do you navigate that? Charle Peck: From my perspective and my experience, it's a, it's going really closely linking to compassion because educators who are in buildings now. It is extremely rare to have somebody there who doesn't care about kids. Now, I'm not saying in the moment they're showing that they care, but they don't stay there. They don't, they just they're not staying in education because the system is working for them or their pay and all of that. They really do care about kids and change and helping kids get to where they need to be, and so. If they're not being accountable there's something there that they haven't worked out. There's someone in that system or something in the system that has let them down over and over and over. And so I think just trying to reach them and maybe not trying to fix them, just trying to say, listen, I don't really know what's going on, but again, I'm gonna meet you where you are. You're doing this for a reason. If they're crossing lines with [00:28:00] kids, absolutely not. We're not gonna allow that. But it goes back to support and compassion. Like, how can I help you? What's going on? What are you, what do you need that can help you do your job better? That I can help you with? Keep it really simple. Josh Stamper: Yeah, the key to behavior transformation for adults or for students, it's connection before correction. So we need to make sure that we're connecting with our adults if we're talking about that as far as our staff, to make sure that. There's something else underline, like we talked about the language of behavior. I mean, our adults are no different. And so I can think of a staff member that was late consistently and had to have a crucial conversation with that person. And then one, unfortunately we uncovered a ton of anxiety and mental health problems. And so for myself as a leader, I mean, I could have easily just started to write the teacher up and have more of a punitive. Approach to it. Instead, we started to look through, okay what's some alternative things to make sure that this person's feeling safe is getting the support they need with their mental health? And is that time off? Is that to go see a professional? I mean, there's a lot of [00:29:00] things that we could do, but having that compassion like we talked about and making sure that that person is their best version to come and then support the kids. Because obviously if this person's not getting the resources needed, I mean either they're not gonna show up or they're gonna be. Kind of a hot mess in the classroom with our students and that, and neither of those options are great. So for myself as a leader, obviously we made sure we got the support needed for the student, or I'm sorry for the staff member. And thankfully it did get better. It was a valley for that person and they were amazing in the classroom for the rest of the school year. Ross Romano: Are there any differences in what this may look like in practice across different? Grade levels, ages, at the very least. You know, between the two of you, you have middle school and high school experience, and so there's the or I mean, is it really going to look pretty much the same? Are there things that might be more important or more you know, common to need to attend to? As kids are a little [00:30:00] younger, a little older? Charle Peck: It's just their developmental level. I mean, it is applicable across K through 12, and even we work with. New teachers who are going into buildings fresh too in the teacher programs, it is absolutely applicable, but you just change the language, right? If you're working with kids on any level, you just understand what their developmental skills and deficits are and cater to those needs and understand really the brain. I. Development. That's huge. Like one of the best things I ever did as a teacher was taught my adolescent students about how their brain is working. So we can teach that to kids too and just use the appropriate language, but also sharing that information with parents too. I mean, it's important to, to get them involved too. So we're all sharing the same common language. I know Josh will have some great information here too. What would you say, Josh? Josh Stamper: I and Charle, we just had someone that reached out to us and is implementing this at a young elementary building and. And they're saying that they're excited because it's working with that, but we've also got people in secondary also that have given us the same feedback. So I do [00:31:00] think you have to tailor it to, obviously the, like Charle said, the development where they're at. I know some boce too in special education are using it. Obviously there's a large level of abilities there too, and so it does require obviously the teacher or administrator to make sure that it's appropriate for the child and where they're at. All these skills, it doesn't matter. I mean, these are all things like we're talking about emotional regulation, well, it doesn't matter your age. That's a skill that you can use for your entire life. Restoring a relationship with someone that's something that you can do. Even my 3-year-old at home I'm still, I'm starting to teach that. So it, it really doesn't matter the age, it's a matter of the language that we're using to tailor to the appropriate level that they're at. Ross Romano: Are there any like common or just. You know, significant, important mistakes that you see made when educators are attempting to put this into action or challenges that they come to you with and say like, I think I'm doing this, but I'm still [00:32:00] having this issue, or This continues to happen. What am I doing wrong? Charle Peck: I see it when people try to fix kids when that's their approach is just. I need to fix this kid or shipping, shipping them off to the school counselor, for example, to say, fix this kid. Or trying to take a power position over kids. It, we are an authority figure. Absolutely. We're not saying that has to be diminished, but when we do try to engage through a power approach, then we're gonna shut them down immediately. It just doesn't work. That doesn't work. Josh Stamper: I think the quick fix, you know that I'm frustrated with these behaviors. I want it to change. Tomorrow, and this is something that we're investing in our kids and sometimes, often it's not something that we see until they're out of our building. I can think of many times that our high schoolers would come back and they were functioning so much better. They were successful, they had jobs and they were going to college and all these things. And it's like, I wish I had that version three, four years ago when I had you. But it really took the [00:33:00] time and all of the effort. From the teachers, from the administrators, the counselors, and doing this work to see the benefit later. And that's the frustrating thing for a lot of our teachers, that they don't get to see the end product. And so they think they just kind of throw up their hands and, oh, I guess it didn't work. Right. But no it's things that for the long game, this is a marathon. And unfortunately sometimes they want that hundred, a hundred yard dash to get that. Finish line as quickly as possible. So I think just the frustration of time and not seeing the dividend right away. The other thing too is like when we're emotionally unregulated or maybe it's a stressful situation, sometimes we default to what we experience as a child, and that's that traditional model. And sometimes we are inconsistent, which is extremely frustrating for the child who's on the other end of it. And so just trying to. Teach that consistency piece, and then also just the understanding that you can be creative. Like you're not bound to a discipline matrix, like you have [00:34:00] flexibility in the way that you're working with the child and every kid's different, so mold it to what they are versus just having a standard set way of doing it for all students. Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would think that as far as potential sources of. Resistance. One of them would be the difficulty of sometimes separating. Like what is from, what we wish was or something, right? Like, like the times when a teacher feels like I just, I wish I could just teach like, like I have this thing that I want my kids to learn and I, why can't I just do that right now? And not have all these other things happening and not because I don't. Care about having a positive influence on it, but because it just feels like there's always an additional thing that is drawing energy and attention [00:35:00] away from the way I set my goals when I woke up this morning. Right. Or what I believed the objectives were. And sometimes too, I mean, it does. Feel as though and not exclusively in schools, although it certainly comes up in schools, but it comes up in all areas of development in communities like a, an inaccurate view of how things. Are now compared to how they supposedly used to be. And you know, things like, well how can we, this is how we used to do it in school, so we should do it that way. And like that may not even necessarily be so, or it might be, well yes, there were things that were neglected and overlooked right. And that we. Kind of forget about what were the negative outcomes of not paying attention to certain things, right? When there was no intentional approach maybe it felt easier, but you know, what we've learned over time is that we're not okay with some of those outcomes with students either. Not [00:36:00] completing school or getting into trouble or having negative outcomes in, in other areas of their life or ha you know, having mental health difficulties that go unaddressed. Right. But I guess to kind of form it into a question what what can some of those conversations look like? Maybe it's a, an educator seeking out. Somebody to talk to and talk through those frustrations. Right. Or just kind of wrap their head around. Okay. Right. This is the, I'm having this challenge here and it really feels like it's making it difficult to accomplish this other thing. Right. To your point Josh, about we can't always see the end product, like you can't control. You can't control what happened in the years prior to those kids getting into your classroom. Right? You of course can't control all the things that are happening outta school, but you also can't control if. You know, if they're behind academically when they get to your [00:37:00] class, or if they are having other behavioral issues that have gone uncorrected and unaddressed, and you're having a starting point that feels more difficult than what you would've hoped for that helping them to make as much progress as you possibly make doesn't necessarily mean that by the end of your time with them. You've accomplished everything that you wish would've been accomplished, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't really important. But I guess how do you know, how can educators support one another? Seek out those conversations, right, for themselves to kind of have the resilience and perseverance to make it through those difficult times. When there's a lot of things that they have to that they're challenged by. Josh Stamper: So Ross, I'm gonna talk about something that Charle and I work with districts on, specifically at the school level. But something I used to implement and really at every campus was a relationship action team. And this group was a small group of individuals that came together exactly for what you're talking [00:38:00] about. One, it was to learn about new strategies. Two was to implement and three was to support others that were in that group. And it was always a small group to begin with, but we had some rules about the relationship. Action team one, you, when you enter the door into the meeting, each meeting I. You had to make sure that you left all your biases at the door, right? We always come with stuff through our experiences or things that we have as far as our belief system, and so we wanted to make sure that everyone had an open mind. Two was everything that we learned and that people brought to the meeting we had to implement in our classrooms. It was a safe space. You could fail at it or you could be successful if it was successful. We wanted to make sure that you continue to implement it every single day within your classroom. And last thing was, once it worked, we wanted you to share it out with a neighbor, a peer. And so our teachers did that often, whereas something was working, they would share it out to someone else and then they would invite them to the relationship action team. So with every. Relationship action team that's [00:39:00] been built. It always is a small group, but it ends with a very large group by the end of the school year. And the reason for that is for, I mean, our teachers are struggling. They wanna know, okay. What are you doing in your classroom with Billy that I'm not doing where you're seeing success and I'm not? Right? And then that other piece is I'm frustrated and I wanna make sure that I'm in a community that's healthy and helping other folks. And so typically I know from my own experience I. It was usually more than half the staff by the end of the school year. That was a part of this relationship action team. So it was really easy as far as we're talking about campus culture of shift, shifting that campus culture to be open-minded, trying new things, and then keeping the things that are working for our teachers and our campus and our students to then push it so that it's campus wide. Because the majority of folks are within this mindset and the majority of folks are working and implementing these things. Charle Peck: Yeah, and it's like having the dream team, right? It's the team approach. Then you're never doing anything alone. It's just never, we talked about that before, that loneliness is [00:40:00] crucial, but also that's why we need training to align to what education is now and in the future. It's just not the same. Everything's changing so rapidly and so we've gotta adapt to that. And the best thing I, one of the other best things I did, 'cause I already said that about teaching kids about their own brains, is I chose to facilitate my classroom a little differently instead of just being up there teaching all the time. I facilitated the learning and I put a lot of it back on the kids, and the message to them was consistently, I believe in you. You can do this. Let's figure this problem out. I got a lot of training and critical thinking, which was awesome because it helped me have the confidence to kind of flip it and say, look, here's the problem. How do you solve this? Now I got to teach about social issues and mental health and wellbeing and that, that kind of thing. But really you can do this in any classroom. Put it as a. A problem that they need to solve and make it relevant to their lives and actually get them thinking about how they're going to engage in the world as they learn and grow. I mean, it just, [00:41:00] it makes sense. Like we have to just shift how we're looking at education and I'll tell you another thing here is we've gotta also tell kids that we believe them. When we have a good relationship with them, that not only do we believe in them, but we believe them when they, when we're developing that trust that I believe you, the way you're talking to me now, I believe you. 'cause they need that validation when you do believe them. So there's a lot, there's a lot of trust building within the system as a whole. Ross Romano: So what's your you know, hope and your vision for. If this framework is implemented and used consistently for how it will shape, what's the common education like, you know what school communities will observe in their outcomes and you know what's the ultimate goal there? Charle Peck: I think we're gonna create. A place where kids actually want to be. We're gonna retain teachers. People are going to truly thrive as a whole community together. That's the transformation. I know [00:42:00] we can do it. We're seeing so many results already. It's truly one kid, one school, one community at a time. I know it's there and it's, there's tremendous hope for our future of education. Josh Stamper: Yeah, I'd say the same as far as hope I think a lot of our teachers are feeling pretty hopeless right now. I know it's the end of school year and they've gone through a lot during that time span. But also just giving 'em permission to do things that are different than what they've done before. And with that, hopefully it's empowering them to then feel like they have the strategies. To be successful. One with the learning that's occurring, but then also to build stronger relationships and make sure that they're giving a student the abilities, the fun functions, the the practices that they need to be better adults. And I think that's really what every teacher wants. I know Ross, that most folks go into the profession because they're passionate about a subject matter. We also want what's best for kids. That's the other component of being a teacher [00:43:00] and to have those strategies and those tools in our tool belt, obviously we're gonna feel much better every single day going into that school building, knowing that we have the tools, the strategies, and the practices to, to make sure that kid is being changed. Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. The two most common things that I have seen and heard come up repeatedly when it comes to teachers leaving their job or leaving the profession or or leadership. And that's always gonna end. I feel that I cannot be successful or effective. And certainly that all applies here in if I cannot overcome some of this, or I'm feeling like consistently we're not able to get to teaching and learning or we're not having any kind of an organized plan around. Developing relationships, improving and addressing behaviors like having kids ultimately exit [00:44:00] school with knowledge and prepared for positive outcomes. Right? Then why do it if it's not working? And so, critically important for schools to have. An approach here for individual educators to have tools as well and to all the things that facilitate effectiveness and make it possible to get to those. You know, those higher level objectives. Listeners, we are going to put the link below to where you can find the book. And we also are going to put links below to the respective websites and other resources. Josh and Charle, do you have anything else you'd like people to check out either on your websites or any other projects? Charle Peck: I just think that if people want to start this conversation, a lot of people want to have a tangible resource. So if they get the book we gave them we give you an opportunity to have a free book study kit. If you'd like to start that conversation with a group of people who really wanna take. Charge and make change and have case studies to look [00:45:00] at and just talk about these strategies so they can implement it. So we'll put the link there too. But they can just get a free book study kit. It's got even emails to invite people. So, and the reflection questions and worksheets and a facilitator guide, it's all there available. Josh Stamper: All right, so Charle, your website's Thriving educator.org. Mine is josh stanford.com. But if you go to josh stanford.com/language of Behavior, that's where our podcast is held. And then we also have a bunch of free resources there, and then obviously the book and then how we support school districts and school campuses. So, all of the things that we do are also on that page. So if you're looking for a one stop shop you can go to either one of those websites to learn more about all the things that we do. Ross Romano: Excellent. We will put those links below listeners so you can visit those websites, check out all those resources, find the book, and continue your learning on this topic here. Find some practical ideas and resources that you can put into practice and start. I. Where you are. Start with the thing that [00:46:00] you're feeling challenged by right now and address that and then build from there, I think is a really good place to start. So we'll put all of that where you can find it. Please also do subscribe to the authority if you're not already. We'll have more interviews with authors coming your way weekly, or you can visit B podcast.network to learn about all of our shows. Charle and Josh, thanks so much for being here. Charle Peck: Thank you. Appreciate it. Ross Romano: Yeah.