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Deep Fakes 101 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I come to Steph.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: I never told your production of iHeart Radio, and today
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: we are once again thrilled to be joined by the brilliant,
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: the lovely, the loquacious brigiad I wrote here.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: I want like, I want to like tape that I guess.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: I guess it's a podcast. I couldn't play it back.
• 0:34
  Speaker 4: And I want to get one of my like morning
• 0:36
  Speaker 4: affirmation to the introductions y'all give.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I feel like she's now going through like a thesaurus
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: to pick out the war.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I try not to use the same words again, but
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: it's hard, so I do, but I try to add
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: in like a kind of like underdog word.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: I love that because they're all true, Like everything she
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: says is true about you. But then like the fact
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: that she's trying to, like, you know, mix it up
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: a bit, I'm like, what is she going to say
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: to day? Is a surprise for me too?
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: We gotta mix things up well, Bridget. We do always
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: love having you. And the last time we spoke with
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: you were we were kind of talking about sort of
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: the New Year's blues. How how have you been? Have
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: things changed? Anything going on?
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Uh?
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: So that's right.
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: I think when we last talked, I was like deep
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: in the midst of that part of January. You're like,
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: the holiday's over, I hate everything. Things were kind of
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: we're kind of turning a quarter. I'm much more of
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: a February girl than a January girl.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: I feel okay.
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: I feel like it's easier to sort of get the
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: swing of what's going on, get in the rhythm. The
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: weather is a tiny bit better. Yeah, how are you
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: all faring at this time of year?
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I'm good.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm still in the strange. Oh wow,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: February is almost over, which I know is like not
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: a unique take. A lot of people have that, but
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: that's sort of where I am. But I do do
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: a lot of like tent pole traditions so I can
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: mark the passage of time. So there was a lot
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: of them recently, like Lunar New Year and then the
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Super Bowl Marti gra like, so I have done a
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: lot of fun things around that that are mostly food related.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: But it does feel just feels kind of like a
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: slog I guess where I'm still The New Year part
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: of like I want to do something different hasn't left me,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: but the like tired. Part of the past year also
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: hasn't left me. So it's sort of like.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: A battle you're winning. I feel like you're winning the
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: battle trying well.
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: I have to ask, did you all want speaking of
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: like moments of tent poles.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: Did y'all watch that Super A halftime show?
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're from Atlanta, we have to.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: I was gonna say, oh, a couple of weeks for
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: Atlanta media right, like a lot going on from Atlanta
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: happening right now.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yes, some good, some bad. But yeah,
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: I've I've really enjoyed watching all the videos of like
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: older people watching the halftime show and being like.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: It when you we were talking to older people, we
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: were talking about me trying to be like, oh, we
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: know these moves, we got this. We're still we're still
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: creaking out these moves.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: Don't start.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Don't start with me, Annie, I still got it.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: It was. It really was peak millennial like you.
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if you were of a certain age, you know
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: those moves, you love those moves. Those moves have never
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: left your blood, you know.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Luna came out, Yes, going down.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: I was screaming. I got up off my couch and
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: was like.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: When everybody thought, you're Maine depre se lo a little sad,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: a little sad about that that moment, but we love
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Germaine to pre come on, and so yes, I think
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I'd explain because my partner was like Selatt's like, no,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: that's Germaine to pre. How do you But understandable because
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: then everybody was like, who is this? But yeah, essentially
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: like Elena celebrating also watching all the trial stuff with
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Fannie Willis who like she's becoming. You know, I have
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of opinions when it comes to Fulton County
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: so pre your cord and they all of that, But
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: she's proving herself. I think she's making herself a kind
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: of an icon now at this point, whether she wanted
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: to or not. Bless her, but uh, yeah, there's a
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: lot of things happening here. So I think that's the
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: theme of all of us, is like a lot of
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: is happening, yeah, and we're just trying to keep up
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: and enjoy the good things and laugh along with it.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: What else can you do?
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess on the flip side of though,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: this topic that you're bringing today, Bridget is something that
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: has for a long time been something I've thought about
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: and the technology has only made it something I think
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: about more and I know we're going to get into it,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: and I have like episodes that we have done. That
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: episode we did about journalism in India sticks out in
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: my mind. But like on the lesser side, even just
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: like someone like Carrie Fisher being in a Star Wars
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: movie after she dies, there's no she never gave She
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: didn't know that was gonna be a thing, so she
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: never gave her permission for it. But it's like a
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: huge technology thing that is impacting a lot of our
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: lives and a lot of sectors. So with that, what
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: topic did you bring for us today, Bridget.
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's really time to have a deep
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: dive into deep fakes AI generated and not AI generated
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: as well. But you know, by now, folks have probably
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: heard about those awful Taylor Swift AI generated deep fake
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: images that circulated on social media. Unfortunately for all of us,
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: Taylor Swift was not the first person to be targeted
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: in that way and most certainly will not be the last.
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: And I know it's one of those issues where, like
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: it's easy to think of it as a celebrity issue
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: because when celebrities are targeted for non consensual deep fake images.
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: It gets big, splashy headlines rightly so, but it's important
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: to remember that non celebrity women and girls like children
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: have also been targeted. And it's an issue that does
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: not just impact celebrities like Taylor Swift and in fact
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: impacts all of us, even those of us who are
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: who have not been targeted by this kind of thing.
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: And so, just as a bit of a housekeeping you
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: probably hear a lot of words around deep fakes like
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: deep fakes and cheap fakes and AI what does it
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: all mean? So the distinctions can be kind of confusing,
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: but I think that they are important. So when we're
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: talking about deep fakes, we're talking about non consensual images
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: that depict nudity or sexualization. Before the rise of AI,
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: people would make these by like old school style, just
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: simply photoshop in somebody's head on somebody else's body. If
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: you've been on the Internet for as long as we have,
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: I'm sure y'all have seen some iteration of this where
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: you're like, this does this is something about this image
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: doesn't look quite right. I don't think that this did
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: happen the way They're trying to get me to think
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: it did happen.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: Have you all ever encountered those.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Yes to say did you did you make one?
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: I cross it and I thought it was real, and
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: then my friends were like, that's definitely.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, okam, like did you do a Ryan gossling.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: Thing that we don't know about?
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Like I don't, I'm just asking. The way you reacted
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: was so like shameful. I needed to know. But you know,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know why, but I always think about the
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Parkisan reg episode, maybe because I'm Asian, but like the
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: councilman who was obsessed with Asian pictures would like put uh,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: like christi Amaguchi's head on random baiting suit picture and
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: it was it was almost like it was not even photoshop,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: that it was like cut out of a magazine, but
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: it was supposed to be photoshop. I think of those
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: for some reason, like that's what pops in my head.
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: Some of them are so bad like that where it's like, damn,
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: the skin tones don't match, like I think Scarlet Joe
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: Hansen has a sleeve hat.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Here we are yet here we are.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: So so Even before the Rise of Ai and we
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: were all talking about AI, those kinds of images were
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: all over the Internet. Scarlett Johnson and Emma Watson were
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: two celebrities who've talked about being targeted by those specific
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: kinds of images for decades, so this is not new.
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: There's also what you think of as cheap fakes. That is,
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: when an image itself is like technically real and not manipulated,
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: but the context is like intentionally misrepresented. A good example
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: of a cheap fake was a few years ago somebody
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: was passing around an image on social media of a woman,
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: like a picture that from her perspective of her in
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: a tub vaping, and if you zoomed way in on
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: a blurry reflection on the faucet, you could see part
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: of her topless body. And so this picture was going
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: around people saying that it was like a blurry nude
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: image of a semi nude Alexandria Ocasio Cortez in the tub,
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: But in actuality it was not aoc It was actually a.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: Real image of Sidney Leathers. You might remember her.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: She was the woman who was involved in that texting
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: scandal with former US Representative Anthony Wiener. So the image
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: itself was real, it was a real image of Sydney leathers. However,
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: it being mislabeled as AOC is what makes it a
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  Speaker 4: cheap thing, right, So it's exactly it sounds like a
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: cheaply manipulated piece of content trying to mislead you.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: So I say all.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: Of this to say that, like, even though we're having
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: this conversation because of the rise of AI, it has
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: existed before AI.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: But AI has.
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: Really made the whole situation a lot worse because with
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: things like new toify apps and AI platforms, anybody can
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: make a pretty convincing deep fake of anybody, Right Like,
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: if you wanted to make a cheap fake of a
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: girl in your class to extort her, it probably would
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: take a lot of work to come up with a
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: cheap fake, or to photoshop her head on somebody else's
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: body in a way that's convincing.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: That's no longer the case with AI, and so it's not.
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: New, but the speed at which, and the ease at which,
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: and the effectiveness of doing it, that part is new.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: And that's why it's such a We're in such a
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: dangerous spot for it right now.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: I remember a couple of years ago, there was kind
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: of an app that was supposed to like tell you, oh,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: if this is a fake image or not, and then
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: it turned up that was fake as well. So it's
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: just become really difficult to navigate our reality and what
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: is real. And as you said, that was already a problem.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: It has already impacted so many people, but with AI
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: and with these newdify apps, it has gotten worse. But
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: can you kind of expound upon those newdify apps for example.
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I mean it's so gross to think, but
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: newdify apps are apps that promise to generate non consensual
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: nude images of anyone.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: These are commercially.
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: Available, like they advertise, you can go on and you
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: pay money to buy them. And yeah, those apps are
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: unfortunately available and surging and popularity. In last September alone,
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: twenty four million people visited undressing websites, according to the
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: social media network analysis company Graphica. In Graphica's analysis, it's
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: actually very interesting they talked about how we've really seen
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: this shift where these kinds of undressing apps on dressing websites,
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: they used to sort of be these niche, custom underground
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: things where it's like a small handful of creeps would
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: would would traffic in them and they would have this
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: like kind of underground fringe network. Now these are fully
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: monetized online businesses, complete with advertising. So in Graphica's analysis,
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: they talked about how we've really seen this shift where
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: these kinds of apps have moved from like niche underground
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: custom markets with like creeps asking and paying for pictures
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: of people. Now they are fully monetized online businesses, complete
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: with advertising.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: And so that's really part of the problem too, is.
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: That how mainstream these apps have become right now.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I know we're about to get into this,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: but that's one of the things I was thinking about
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: with this is like it's bizarre and horrifying to me
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: how this has become such a weapon. Like I feel
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: like if it happens to men, it still sucks. It's bad,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: but it's not like, oh God, your career is ruined
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: or oh god this your family is so upset, And
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: there's not really a way, as I said, to prove
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: like this isn't real, And these platforms are making money
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: off of it in some cases and in other cases
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: they're just not doing anything about it.
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I mean so I hate to say this,
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: but a lot of platforms are just kind of allowing
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: it because you know, again with this being more of
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: a like fully monetized business, think about all the different
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: platforms and institutions that have to be in for someone
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: to make a purchase of a new Tofy app, a
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: payment processor like PayPal, an app store like a Google Play,
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: a social media platform like a Twitter or a Facebook
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: that advertise that app, and all of these social media
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: platforms have unfortunately advertised for these new Toify apps. And
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: so and I'm also sad to say that, you know,
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: as you said, like we are talking about something that
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: can ruin people's reputations, that can mess up their careers,
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: that can create chaos and havoc with their family life,
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: their romantic life, their civic life, their public life.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: And so I hate to say this, but so.
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: Far it is the kind of thing where platforms, for
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: the most part, will try to do something and act
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: after the fact. But when you're talking about something that
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: can be so impactful, reactively taking action after the damage
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: has already been done to me is not enough. And
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: so what I would want to see is more are
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: proactive measures to keep this kind of thing from happening,
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: as opposed to like, oh well, once there's already non
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: consensually AI generated images depicting what is oftentimes essentially like
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: child sexual abuse material. Then we'll take it down and
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: it's like, well, everybody in our school already saw it.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Everybody in our school has it on their phone.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: That's not really in my book, it's not really a
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: reasonable response.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Right, with all this conversation about censorship, with TikTok especially
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: and things like that, you would think apps like this
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: that actually create porn, let actually create some things that
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: are as what we need would say were porn, that
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: there would be conversation about how to regulate that, and
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: also that this would be a conversation about what the
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: power of AI can do. Before Taylor Swift like, there's
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: so many people, as you've already said, who have gone
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: through this. We know that there was an incident that
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: happened with Twitch, with a lot of fallout with a
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: couple of women creators that were targeted by other creators
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: who just thought it was funny or had their own
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: needs or whatever. I've that in quotes and using that
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: against them and almost like in ruining these women and
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: to the point that they felt like they had to
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: hide even though it had nothing to do with them.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: They did nothing, but no one's really paying attention to that.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: To this point.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: I remember the Twitch incident, and something that really sticks
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: out at me was, boy, do we need to have
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: a real cultural conversation and a cultural attitude shift about
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: the harm that this can be associated with?
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Because I still.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: Saw people responding with, well, but it's not really her.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: Why does she care if it's not really her, it's
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: just a picture that's fake. It's just pretend who cares?
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: And you know, being a millennial, all of us probably
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: remember how we culturally treated when someone's images got leaked
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: or got hacked. It was such a shameful thing, right,
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: And so it's wild to me that people would go
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: from like twenty ten photos being hacked and released and
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: being like, oh, they shouldn't have taken those photos.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: That's so shameful, blah blah blah.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: And then here in twenty twenty four be like, it's
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: not a big deal, they're not real photos. And so
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: I would say that the Twitch incident to me, really
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: shows that we need to have a cultural conversation and
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: attitude shift that's like, no, this is real. This is
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: people's real lives, the real reputations. At the end of
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: the day, if you don't consent to be depicted in
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: these images, it is a sex crime. And so it's
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: a very serious thing. It's not something to just brush off.
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: And the women and girls targeted should not be brushing
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: it off, and we shouldn't be reinforcing this attitude that
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: it's not a big deal because it's a violation.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Right, And that's kind of that conversation, is that obviously,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: because the government hasn't caught up with what could be,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: is gonna get worse.
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: Oh, yes, this is something that like I will probably
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: say this five million times in this conversation. Currently there
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: is no federal legislation criminalizing non consensual.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Deep fakes, which.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: To me is staggering when we've already it's you know,
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: I often am talking about tech harms and I'm like, oh,
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: this could be a harm, or like down the line,
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: this could be a harm. It's a harm already. There's
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: already been several reports, both in the United States and elsewhere,
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: of girls children not just being humiliated by non consensual
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: AI deep takes, but sex stoarted where boys in their
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: class will say, if you don't pay me money, I
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: will release these non consensual AI generated deep takes of
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: you to the whole school. And so the fact that
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: we're still sort of, I don't know, spitting our wheels.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: There's been a couple of lawmakers that are trying to
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: get legislation off the ground. The girls who have been
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: targeted have been very loudly and clearly advocating that we
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: need more legislation and our kids are at risk, Like,
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: we are really deeply failing our kids in such a
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: serious way. And I just can't imagine being thirteen fourteen,
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: a middle schooler and having to just shoulder the burden
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: of this kind of violation, a sexual public humiliation, and
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: the lawmakers that are meant to keep us safe are
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: just like sbit in their wheels.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: It's really sad.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it points to a lot of
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: like because again I was thinking about this, and I
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: was thinking about, like, what does it say if these
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: images get leaked for girls and women? And it's so devastating,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: but what if for men? It doesn't necessarily equate to that?
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Again it can, but like also it does lead to
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: things like self harm and even death. Like, this is
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: a really serious thing, and I think we should examine
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: both why it's happening, but both why it is so
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: serious for girls and women. But you also have numbers
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: about how it's a unfortunately growing it's a worsening as
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: a problem.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think part of why it's worstening is
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: because we haven't done that examination. We haven't really gotten
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: serious about legislation. So it's just like people like me
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: are like, oh, this is a problem, and then the
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: girls that had happened to are like, this is bad,
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: and everyone's like, yep, we agree it's bad, and then
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: no one does anything and it disc gets worse. So,
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: according to research from independent analyst Genevieve Oh, the number
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: of new pornographic deep fake videos has already surged more
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: than nine fold since twenty twenty. At the end of
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, the top ten sites offering AI generated
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: deep fakes hosted one hundred and fourteen thousand videos. And
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: as you were saying, Annie, just to be clear, like
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: women and girls are not the only folks who are
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: impacted by this, but it is overwhelmingly women and girls
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: who are shouldering the impact here and the burden of
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: the harm that it causes. According to a study from
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: deep trace Labs, ninety six percent of Deep thinks are
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: non consensual sexual depictions of women and girls. And so yeah,
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying that men are not dealing with this.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: And you know, there's plenty to say.
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: About the way that technology is harming men and boys,
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Like there's been a lot of developments in terms of
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: like bad actors chatting with boys, the teen boys especially
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: and then sex storting them and being like, oh, actually
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: I am a bad actor in the Global South, and
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: if you don't give me money, I am going to
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: release these images I took of you to all your
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: friends and family.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: That is a growing problem.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: And so certainly, you know, the intersection of sex crimes
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: and technology is something that harms us all. But when
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: it comes to deep Thinks, we're really talking about women
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: and girls. It is a gender justice issue, and I
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: think it's one of those issues that really shows how
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: technology and gender can intersect in ways that really keep
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: women and girls from being able to fully and safely
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: show up.
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: In online spaces.
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: And increasingly, showing up in online spaces is the same
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: thing as showing up in civic and public and democratic life.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: And so if you aren't able to show up fully
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: online without being at risk.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: Of like AI generated deep fikes.
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: You are not able to safely and meaningfully show up
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: in public and civic life, right.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: You know, we actually talked about this a little bit
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: with our AI episode. The fact that AI specifically, when
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: it comes to prompting, goes off of what's on the web,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: goes off what was up there and available and even
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: innocent prompts, because that's how people often create these images
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: turn out to be ridiculously offensive and oftentimes very like
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: sexual in nature and graphic of women and young girls.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: And it's not because that's what they prompted. It's because
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: that's what's available and has been out there and most
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: likely to be the most popular or whatever whatnot. And
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: that's a conversation in itself of like how twisted is
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: the Internet and how twisted have we made this Internet?
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I say this very only, but that that's what is
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: immediately seen and immediately brought up, even though that's not
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: not be what they meant to say or what they
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: were intending to do, which can take you down to
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: a whole different rabbit hole in itself. I remember real bad,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: real bad example, but like being younger, loving in sync
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: and I googled something in sync and I misspelled the word.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: It took me to a porn side. I was like,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: what what is this? And I was so confused as
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: a teenager, but like stuff like that being prompted when
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: something is not even like that harmful of a prompt
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: and it pulls that stuff up. Because that's so much
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: of the content that's available and that's allowed on the
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Internet that's not been regulated. Everything else could have been regulated.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: We're not going to talk about you know, rights conspiracy
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: things right now, necessarily, but there's so many things that
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: you would think would be innocent. But because of the
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: way we may have trained the Internet, and again the
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: people who are in charge and allow the stuff that's
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: on the Internet that comes up, And that's part of
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: the problem in itself, that there's too much available content
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: that the people who controlled it have allowed this to
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: be where we are.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: If there is one thing that I want people to
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: take away about AI and what it all means from
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: this episode, it is that it is so easy to
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: think of AI as hyper intelligent robot computer brains and they're.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: Just thinking on their own. That's not true.
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: AI is built by humans, it is trained by humans.
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: Everything that AI does, it is learning from us and
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: the content that we put out there on the internet,
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: from what we see, say, from what we think, from
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: what we do think about the humans that you know,
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: humans are biased, humans have foibles, humans have flaws, so
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: all of the things that you know humans can have.
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: AI is simply reflecting all of those all of that bias,
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: all of those shortcomings back at us because it learned
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: it from us.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: And so yeah, that's like the like AI is not neutral.
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: AI is just spitting back the same biased stuff that
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: we put out there, and so that doesn't surprise me.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: It's like the same reason why when if you are
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: if you ever use one of those AI headshot generators,
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: they'll often if you're a person of color, maybe it'll
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: lighten your skin, maybe it'll narrow your features, maybe it'll
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: make you look thinner, or make your make you bustier,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: or make your hair longer, because it's like, oh, we
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: this this this program has been trained on what's out there,
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: and what they think is like, oh, you want a
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: pretty picture of yourself. That means you want to look
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: like this, right, It's not like AI. AI is just
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: getting that.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: From us, right, Yes, but one of the interesting things
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: that you put together in this outline is some people
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: have tried to stop this, like we've tried to come
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: in and make sure that certain things can't happen with
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: AI or with deep fakes in general, but people have
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: found their ways around them.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: Oh yes, when you have like motivated creeps who have
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: a lot of time on their hands and are good
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: with technology, they will find a way. And so that's
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: actually how those Taylor Swift images originated in the first place.
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: Those images originated on an alternative messaging platform called Telegram,
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: and this specific Telegram channel was actually kind of like
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: a marketplace for celebrity deep bakes, where users were like
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: requesting and trading deep images of celebrities since last year.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: And so most commercial AI generators do have some safeguards
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: in place to prevent abuse.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: So like if you.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: Were to ask an AI generator to be like, oh,
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: make me an image depicting a child, it's not supposed.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: To do that. However, the people in this particular Telegram group.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: Their whole thing was I mean, I hate to say it,
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: but like almost like the sport of getting around those guardrails.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: And so four or four Media did a lot of
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: digging into this and found that like, basically the people
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: on this telegram platform were like trying all these different
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: ways to get around the guardrails that were in place
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: in the in Microsoft's AI creation tool called Designer in
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: order to generate deep fakes of specific celebrities. And so
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: if you were to be like type in Taylor Swift,
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: it's not supposed to generate an image of Taylor Swift.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: That's supposed to be a guardrail. However, these crates found that.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: If you you put.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: It an input that's like tailor singer Swift, that it
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: will right. And so it's also not supposed to generate
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: images or images that depict sexual activity. But if you say, like, oh,
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: generate an image of Tailor singer Swift eating a hot
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: dog or something like that, something that's like not sexually
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: explicit but could look kind of sexually explicit, there.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: Are all these little ways of getting around it.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: And yeah, basically, if you are motivated and a creep,
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: you can get around these guardrails pretty easily.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: And none of this is terribly surprising.
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: It's the same kind of thing that people have been
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: warning is really easy to do for a long time.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: And even after the Taylor Swift deepstakes really blew up,
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: Microsoft tweaked their guardrails to make this kind of thing
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: less possible. And on that telegram platform, all you had
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: was people being like, oh, well, let's continue, let let's
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: continue to figure out a way to keep doing this,
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: Like this is like a support for them. They this
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: is something they enjoyed doing. The guardrails are only for
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: whatever reason, like motivating them to try to figure out
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: ways around those guardrails to continue generating this kind of content.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Right, And I remember when this happened because I had
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: I feel like Twitter has sort of become my Facebook,
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: where people contact me through dms on Twitter, and that's
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: like the only time I go to Twitter anymore. And
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: I saw it trending and I was like, oh my god,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: what has happened. And that's how I sort of learned
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: about this whole thing. And then I read about how
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: they handled it, and it wasn't great.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: Right, I hated how they handled it. So I guess
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: Twitter realized like, oh my god, these images are everywhere.
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: Taylor Swift is a huge figure. We ought to do something.
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: And so what they did was they tried to block
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: people from being able to search Taylor Swift's name temporarily,
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: although just putting quote marks around her name allowed people
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: to search the name, so they didn't even do that
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: very even the method of dealing with it that I
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: thought was so bad, they didn't even really do that effectively.
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: So hated that. But I even kind of bigger than that.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: The reason why I hate this approach.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: Is that it makes it seem like Taylor.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: Swift has done something wrong. Right now, Taylor Swift is
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: a billionaire, she's huge. I don't think people are like
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: forgetting who she is, if she's not, if you're out
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: of if you're not able to search her name on
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: Twitter temporarily. But because just because she has been the
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: target of this like sexual humiliation campaign, why should she
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: have to have her name blocked on social media search?
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: And what if this happened to somebody who wasn't just famous?
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: Right, It's basically like saying the only way to keep
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: you safe in these online spaces is to obscure your
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: presence there. And as I said, participation in online platforms
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: is like pretty much linked with how people show up socially, politically, civically, democratically.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: In twenty twenty four and so.
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: Saying that like, oh, need to obscure your presence there
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: is basically marginalizing women in these online spaces where we
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: are already marginalized.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: And so I just really don't think.
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: Like philosophically, I feel like I have a problem with
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: that as a way of handling.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: It, and specifically on Taylor the fact that twenty percent
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: of conservatives believe that Taylor Swift is a plant by Biden.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Monmouth, I believe that's how you say it.
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: Just released a poll last week that it was one
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: out of five people. Really, that's eighteen percent, So your
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: numbers aren't far off.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, percent of people believe that she.
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: Is being propped up, right, I guess to help.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: The Democrats win. Like I'm not even try I kind
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: of lose the thread.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: And this is what I saw today. The headline was
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: a twenty percent believe that Taylor Swift is a Biden plant,
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: specifically for the election year. And I'm like, she's always existed.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I don't understand what's happening. Not always, but like for
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: the last thirty five years she's been here. Well, I
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: don't understands.
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: Would have taken for the Biden administration, and he's only
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: in a first term, like the foresight it would have taken.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: So it makes me wonder how far will they go
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: to try to keep our all social media if she
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: was truly if they truly believed this about her? And
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: is this gonna be my conspiracy theory that the right
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: is trying to get rid of Taylor before the season.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: So I'm with you.
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: So first of all, people need to know that, like
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: this is not just like fringe, like fringe people who
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: are saying this, people as big as former Republican presidential
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: candidate Ramaswami. He took to Twitter to like amplify this
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: conspiracy theory. Right, So this is obviously something that like
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: people not just like strandos on the.
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: Internet are saying.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: But I do think like it's hard to talk about
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: because they don't want to like give the images more oxygen.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: But when I did an episode on The Deep Things,
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: I had to confirm if they were still like available
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: on Twitter and so I could say, like, oh, as
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: of this taping, they're still up. So I looked for them.
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: I had to see them, and I can tell you
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: that the image is their football themed.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: I guess I'll put it that way. They depict Taylor
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: Swift at.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: A football game, and so you know, everybody on the
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: planet knows that she's dating the player from the from
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: Kansas City kind of like, don't even get me to
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: try to talk about sports.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: But and so, and she's been in.
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: The news for like being at the games and the
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: games cutting to her and blah blah blah. And so
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: I believe that the reason those images to picture at
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: a football game is that it's they're meant to not
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: just sexually humiliate her, they're meant to like take her
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: down a peg as a person.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: And so I think that there's clearly something.
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: Going on with Taylor Swift to have these conspiracy theorists
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: be targeting her in this way. But those images really
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: solidified something for me that like, oh, whoever made these
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: it is about humiliating her and taking her down a
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: peg because of something that she represents, right, Like, I
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: can't get into their head, So I don't know what
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: it is exactly, but like those the images, it was
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: very really clear to me that somebody was really leveraging
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: visual rhetoric to make that point.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's very interesting in general when it
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: comes to AI because the level of opportunity that people
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: take to make the worst possible things that you just realize, like,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: what's what's the point in this? And with that, because
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: it crosses such boundaries that things that exist that would
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: be art and that you know, nudity in itself is
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: not porn. We don't like if we need to be
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: very honest, like when we have this conversation about loving
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: our bodies and being open with our bodies, and why
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: are we like discriminating against women's breast versus versus men's chest,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: you know, like stuff like that. Those are real conversations
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: that have to have. But because of these boundaries that
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: get crossed, that you have to ban all of it,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: and so it makes it feel like everything is dirty
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: once again. It's like that old problem of trying to
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: differentiate now this is a violation versus this is a
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: personal right. Like it's such a hard place totally.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: And I can speak to that because as we're having
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: this conversation about using AI to take women's clothes off
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: non consensually, there's also a conversation happening online where right
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: wing trolls are using AI to do the reverse to
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: women who consensually want to show up online, you know,
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: wearing bikinis or being in various stages of undress. They
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: are taking their youth, taking those images and using AI
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: to put clothes on them, to remove their tattoos, to
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: remove their like purple hair and give them more natural
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: hair color, to put children around them, to sort of
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: demonstrate like, oh this is And unless you're thinking, you
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: might be thinking like, oh, they're doing this to to
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: affirm these women, to be like, here's what you would
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: look you would look so beautiful like this.
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: It is very even if that's what you thought that
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: would be picked up. But that's not what they're doing.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: They're doing this to shame and humiliate these women. And
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: so ultimately it is really not even really about the
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: nudity and the sexuality. It is about taking away women's agency,
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: taking away their autonomy over their own body, reinforcing the
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: attitude that says women cannot be trusted to or do
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: not deserve to have their own choices about how they
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: depict their own bodies. And so even if you're someone
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: who wants to show up nude online, they will take
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: that choice away from you. So ultimately, in my book,
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: this is really the nudity and the sex is like happenstance.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: The real thing here is like taking away the agency
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: and humiliating the woman in the.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Process, right right, And again the fact that it's this
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: has been happening, and this continues to happen to people
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: every day, and it's not just Taylor. It just happens
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: to be Taylor was the biggest name that people could
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: focus on, right.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: Exactly, So this actually happened Before this happened of Taylor,
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: it happened to teen Marvel star Social Gomez and so
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: before the Taylor Swift deep things made the rate of Twitter, Gomez,
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: who is a minor, was also targeted with deep fake
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: images that flooded Twitter. And so the sad part is
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: it's like it sounds like to me, Twitter just didn't
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: do anything. And I hate to say this, but like
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: it sounds like that because Gomez isn't as famous, she's
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: a woman of color, it sounds like they just didn't
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: really do anything. In a podcast interview, she said, it
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: made me word it out and I didn't like it.
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: I wanted it taken down. That was my main thought process,
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: take this down, please. It wasn't because I felt like
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: it was invading my privacy. More like, it wasn't a
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: good look for me. This has nothing to do with me,
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: and yet it's on here.
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: With my face.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: And what's really sad is that she basically was like
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: I talked to Twitter and they didn't do anything. And
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: she's basically had to like make personal peace with the
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: fact that the images are out there and that they
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: always will be out there. They're out there now, right,
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: And so she said, nothing good comes from thinking about it.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: I put my phone down, do some skincare, I go
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: hang out with my friends, something that will help me
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: forget what I saw.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: And keep in mind, she is seventeen, she is a minor.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: This is a legal.
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: Child sexual abuse material on Twitter, and nobody is doing
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: a thing to take it down.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: It's still up today.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Going back to your point about like we have to
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: exist online for so many things. You know, if you're
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: in a movie. She was in this big Marvel movie,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: and then a part of being in that is promoting
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: online and then this is what happens, and like why
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: would you want to participate in that? Why would you?
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: And that damages your career prospects, Like the publicity of it,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: the promotion of it, but it's also like who could.
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: Flavor like yeah, yeah, And the data is really clear
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: that this kind of threat is keeping women out of
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: public and so whether it's a movie, whether it's running
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: for office, whether it's being a teacher, whether it's working
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: at the polls, this kind of thing, women are smart
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: enough to be like, if this is what it's going
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: to mean, if this is going to be the cost
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: of being participating in civic and public.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: Life, I don't want to pay that cost.
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: And that's so when I say that it's not just
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: about celebrities or it's not just about a listers or whatever.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: It is harming us all because we will not have.
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: The representative democracy that we all deserve if women and
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: girls cannot fully show up in public and civic life.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: And the data is very clear that threats like this
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: are keeping them from doing exactly that right.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: And you have some examples that are pretty heartbreaking about this.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: Yes, it is so heartbreaking, Like this is really just
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: an issue where we the adult and the people who
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: are supposed to be in charge are just failing our kids.
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: So this is only a handful of time. As the
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: has happened across the country and across the globe. It's
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: happened a lot, and so if I was going to
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: list every instance, we will be here all day. Unfortunately,
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: but this year, a school district in Aurora, Colorado, released
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: the names of schools involved in a sextortion investigation, which
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: included two middle schools children. The police say that in
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: six instances, students reported being the direct target of sextortion
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: schemes after being contacted by the suspect or suspects through Instagram.
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: In dozens of others, students received unsolicited invitations to pay
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: to join a close Friends list on Instagram where sexually
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: explicit material had been posted. So essentially, what they're describing
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: is a marketplace where kids are either being invited to
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: join this close Friends list to see sexually explicit AI
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: generated Deep think content, or being extorted to keep that
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: content from being shared. Earlier this year, New Jersey high
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: schooler Francesca Manny, a teenage victim of non consensual sexually
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: explicit Deep thinks, joined Representative Joe Morell to share her
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: story and to advocate for a bipartisan bill that would
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: criminalize the sharing of such material at the federal level,
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: and so at her high school boys in her school.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: They made these deep fake images of about thirty other
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: girls in her class, and she was like, Nah, I'm
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: not having this, and so has been advocating for legislation
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: to change this. The bill called the Preventing Deep Fakes
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: of Intimate Images Act, was first referred to by the
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: House Judiciary Committee back in December of twenty twenty two,
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: but so far no further action has been taking. So
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: this bill would criminalize the non consensual sharing of sexually
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: explicit deep fakes and create a rite of private action
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: so that the victims depicted in these images would be
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: able to sue the creators and distributors of that material
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: while also remaining anonymous. Under this law, the damages of
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: sharing deep faked images without consent could go as high
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: as one hundred and fifty thousand dollars an imprisonment of
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: up to ten years if sharing these images facilitates violence
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: or impacts the proceedings of a government agency.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: Francesca's story is really heartbreaking.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: Again, these boys in her class were generating and trading
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: these deep faked nude images of her at about thirty
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: other students back in October twentieth and Manny has been
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: really advocating and telling her story. She says the issue
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: is pretty black and white. No kid, teen or woman
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: should ever have to experience what I went through.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: I felt sad and helpless.
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: I'm here standing up and shouting for change, fighting for
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: laws so no one else has to feel as lost
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: and powerless as I did on October twentieth. The glaring
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: lack of laws speaks volumes. Our voices are our secret weapon,
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: and our words are like power ups in Fortnite. My
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: mom and I are advocating to create a world where
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: being safe isn't just a hope, it's a reality for everyone.
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: And I really it's hard for me because Francesca sounds
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: amazing and sounds incredible, and I applaud what she's doing,
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: But she shouldn't have to be doing this child She
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: is a kid. She should be getting ready for prom
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: and like making Taylor Swift bracelets or whatever, and or
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: like you know, having fun with her friends. She should
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: not be having to advocate with lawmakers to get laws
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: on the books that don't exist to keep kids like
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: her safe. And so we are really failing our kids.
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: We are taking away their childhood. We are saying this
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: is an we are normalizing this as something they have
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: to shoulder.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: Meanwhile people are getting rich off of it, people are
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: making money from it.
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: It is so heartbreaking to me, right, And I feel
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: like for you know, us from a different time. I
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: remember you just post things on social media and you
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: didn't think like one day this could be used. You
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: didn't think one day this could ruin my life or
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: I'm going to have to be fighting for some kind
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: of legislation.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: So I think it's ridiculous that we expect to younger
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: people to because I've seen that argument before. I like, well,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: just don't post anything like well.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Right, And then we talked about the families who put
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: their children on not thinking about this. I know this
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: is maybe not the like they they did this very
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: like innocently, just talking about their children, because they don't
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: think about the perpetrators that are out there, the perverted
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: individuals who will take whatever image they may find and
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: use it to the way they please. And that's part
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: of the problem is that because people didn't realize this
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: could be a thing, and now here we are and
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: there's all this content available for them to use and manipulate.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: For people who just wanted to share joyful moments.
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I hate it. Like I having researched this a lot,
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: I know the very real dangers involved in posting minors
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: on social media, even if you're doing it innocently, And
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: so I would really urge anybody who is a parent
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: or a guardian of a child, if you are a
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: grown up of a kid, really do some deep research
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: into the threats that exist. Doesn't mean that you don't
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: have to that you can't share your kid, your pictures
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: of your kid with their friends and family. There are
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: ways to do it safely. I would urge anybody to
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: do a deep look into that. And if folks want help,
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: I am happy to help. I don't I don't want
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: to make it seem like I'm appreciating or blaming, so
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: reach out to me. I'm happy to help. But the
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: point is, it's like, it sucks that you would have
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: to do that. It sucks that you cannot innocently post
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: a picture of yourself or your kid without this happening.
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: And so I will be the first person to agree that, like,
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: you shouldn't have to be thinking about it that way.
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: And when you show up online, whether you're posting selfies
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: or whatever. You shouldn't have to wonder if your innocent
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: selfie is just another data point for somebody to misuse
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: and create an image of yourself that you didn't consent to.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: It is such a messed up dynamic that we But
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: my worry is that as messed up as it is,
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: it is becoming, it is becoming quickly the norm. And
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: I don't want to fast forward ten years later and
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: have you know it be a rite of passage for
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: a high school girl to have boys in her class
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: circulate non consensual, deep fake images of her, but she
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: had nothing to do with I don't, and I'm worried
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: that that's what's gonna happen in ten years time. It's
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: just going to be another milestone. And now is the time,
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: actually the time to pump the brakes and examine. This
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: was about ten years ago, but we can still do
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: it now and it's not too late to figure this out,
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: and I worry. So I just really worry that we're
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: not doing it because and that teenagers like Francesca are
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: going to have spent their teen years advocating for something
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: and no change will happen. We owe it to people
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: like Francesca to actually do something, do not have her
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: spend all of this energy at her young age and
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: have that beef for nothing.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And again, like this impacts so much because it
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: impacts all of us who are not in any way famous.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: But it also, as we talked about in that episode
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: about journalism and India, it impacts like what gets reported
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: because people get threatened. It impacts like people showing up.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: It impacts people wanting to run in politics, like it is.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: It's something in the back of our minds and it
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: shouldn't be like that shouldn't be a thing, but it is.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: But there are things that listeners can do, Yes.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: There are. So this is a tough issue.
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: It's one of those issues where I get very frustrated
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: because I'm like, I am not a lawmaker.
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: What can I do? I'm a podcaster.
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: All I can do is make podcasts that are very
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: shouty about it, and boy do I But and so
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: I don't want it to be all deep and gloom
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: because there are things that folks can do. I would say,
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: make sure that you're following people, a lot of whom
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: are women and women of color, who have really been
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: advocating to make AI sayer for a long time, like
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: doctor Joe Bolawi, who we just did an interview with
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: on my podcast, there are no girls on the internet
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: who has been talking about the threats that AI poses,
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: specifically to marginalized people for a really long time. Check
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: out her advocacy organization, the Algorithmic Justice League, and so.
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: And also know that there is movement on this right
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: because of the advocacy of people like doctor Joe Bolamwini.
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: You know, the Biden administration released that executive order putting
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: some guardrails.
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: On AI a couple of months ago.
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: And as I said, lawmakers like Representative Joe Morrell and
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: Representative if At Clark have legislation and have introduced legislation
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: that would criminalize deep fakes. And so there is some movement,
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: like people are trying to do stuff. But I would
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: also say, like, really see this issue as a real issue,
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: Like I think this is an issue where we where
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: it's going to take legislative solutions and policy solutions and
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: platform solutions, but also cultural solutions.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: Right, don't normalize this.
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: Really, if some one you know is being targeted or
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: it comes up like if someone you're talking to you
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: is talking about those together swift deep fakes, make sure
• 49:07
  Speaker 4: they understand that it is a violation, and it is
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: a it is a sex crime, and that it's not
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: just a funny picture to be laughed about or looked
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: at or traded around. I think that we, in the
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: absence of lawmakers kind of getting it together and moving
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: on federal legislation, we can institute cultural change the same
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: way that like the Me Too movement really got people
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: talking about gender based violence and sexual violence, the same
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: way that Black Lives Matter got people thinking about racial justice.
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: We need to have the same kind of cultural shift.
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: In how we talk about these kinds of technology facilitated
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: harms like deep fakes.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, once again, Bridget, I have so many other
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: things I want to talk to you about.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: Well, I'll come back anytime.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: Oh alas, yes, oh so many things. Our time is
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: for now, though, But how can the good listeners find you?
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: Well, you can listen to my podcast. There are no
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: girls on the internet. You can find me on Twitter
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: at Bridget Marie and on Instagram at bridget Marie DC,
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: and on TikTok at Bridget makes Pods.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, and again, listeners, if you have not done those things,
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: please go do them. Thank you so much, Bridget. We're
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: still trying to hang out in real life.
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: And do it.
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: Thank you, listeners.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, in the meantime, Listeners. If you would like to
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: contact us, you can or email is steffaniea mom stuff
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: stuff When Never Told You. We have a tea public store,
• 50:42
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• 50:44
  Speaker 2: get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: Christine Are, executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Ever
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Told You's fiction by heart Radio. For more podcasts or
• 50:54
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• 50:55
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• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah