Latest / psychophobia* podcast / Episode 05: Fierce Compassion - Mystification, and the Living Lineage of R.D. Laing

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Episode 05: Fierce Compassion - Mystification, and the Living Lineage of R.D. Laing · psychophobia* podcast

• 0:05
  What if the institutions designed to help us understand the
• 0:09
  human psyche are
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: actually afraid of them?
• 0:12
  Hosted by Dr.
• 0:13
  Michael Montgomery,
• 0:15
  this podcast explores the uncomfortable questions.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Together,
• 0:19
  we'll examine how the mental health systems meant to heal us
• 0:22
  instead perpetuate
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: cycles of dependency.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Psychophobia Podcast.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: How are you, first of all?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'm here in Maui.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's a beautiful day.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're not surrounded by snow like we are then?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're lucky?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to ask you a question.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Are you ready?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: What does this mean to you?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: The book?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you laughed.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: What was the first thing that comes into your mind?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: It was such a profound impact on my early 20s.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I laughed.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: It changed the course of my life when I read it.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I stumbled on it accidentally.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: I was traveling around Europe.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: I was in Rome.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: And there was a bookstore that had books in English.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'd already read other things by him,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: but that one really just kind of shook up all my molecules.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the book,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: in case people don't know,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: it's already lying,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: The Divide Itself,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: which is very much still in print.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: And elements over probably,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's a classic in many ways,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: but you've been a little bit coy,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: aren't you?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because you actually spent a lot of time with Ronnie.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I did.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: And partly that was because of reading that book.
• 2:23
  I knew I was going to be in the UK for three or four months,
• 2:28
  like 1970,
• 2:29
  might've been 71.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, wow, this is fascinating.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: I was not a psychology student at all at that point.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: I had been to college in the U.S.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: and I went to a college that allowed for foreign travel and study.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: It was a hippie college back then.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought, what the heck?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: I had read Politics of the Family, one of Lang's books.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's actually a little later one.
• 3:11
  But I'd read it,
• 3:12
  and I was very much into political activism and philosophy.
• 3:17
  I'd never really heard,
• 3:21
  seriously,
• 3:21
  I'd not really heard about therapy at all.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I knew people went, but I didn't know anybody about therapy then.
• 3:30
  So anyway,
• 3:30
  I thought,
• 3:30
  well,
• 3:30
  I'll just call him when I'm in the UK and go talk to him.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: It was a little arrogance of innocence.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I love that.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're just following your bliss in a way.
• 3:44
  So when you phoned him,
• 3:45
  did you actually get to speak to him himself or was it like
• 3:48
  a...
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: No, because he was in India.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that year he took out?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: However,
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: there was an organization of sorts around the Philadelphia Association,
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: and they had gatherings.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: They had what they called a study program.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: And the guy I talked to was Paul Seale.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: And he was close colleagues of Lange's.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: And he said,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: all right,
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  SPEAKER_03: why don't you just come around to one of these study groups,
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: these gatherings in a basement somewhere in North London.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I did.
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  SPEAKER_03: And that's how that got started.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I never met him that time.
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  SPEAKER_03: I was hooked, though, hooked on the whole thing.
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  It was the political scene around recognizing that the
• 4:45
  psychiatric movement was one
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  SPEAKER_03: of the biggest oppressors of people.
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  So I had come out of kind of marching against Vietnam and
• 4:56
  marching for feminism and all that.
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  And now I was just fascinated because I realized that the
• 5:02
  oppression starts in
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  SPEAKER_03: nuclear families and that it's not talked about.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_03: And he was the first one.
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  SPEAKER_03: I read that talked about it.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, now there's millions of things written about it.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: But he laid it out, how we're mystified.
• 5:20
  And when I read Divide Itself,
• 5:24
  I didn't think that I had a mental health diagnosis.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: But I did think, oh my God, this is so familiar.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: This is what I go through.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: This is how I've been
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: I now have that word, by my families.
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  And then I started going to these study groups,
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  and they were just fascinating that I was done.
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  SPEAKER_03: I went back to America,
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: back to my college for a bit,
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  SPEAKER_03: and then arranged to do everything else in London.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: So then I moved back to London and spent the 70s, and then Lay was back.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: So then I got to know him.
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  I got involved very heavily with households that grew out of
• 6:16
  Kingsley Hall,
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  SPEAKER_03: which was Lang's original household.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it was a place where people could come.
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  Many people came out of mental hospitals with pretty intense
• 6:31
  psychiatric abuse and diagnoses.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then some of us,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: like me,
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  sort of stumbled into it from originally more of this yearning
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  for truth about who
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  SPEAKER_03: am I.
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  SPEAKER_03: And also,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: and I say this carefully,
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: a misguided belief that I could help other people.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: So then I thought, I can help these poor disadvantaged people.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's a whole other story.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: I got disavowed of that arrogance.
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  SPEAKER_03: That was one of the outcomes of being there.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: But I was mostly driven by my own confusion and depression.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, real, pretty serious depression.
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  SPEAKER_03: Thank God my parents weren't paying attention or I'd been locked up.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: So that's how I landed there.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got to wait three hours worth now to talk about it.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I should say I'm going to work from the front and work backwards.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think I only got disavowed of that delusion until you took me through a
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Breathworks experience.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
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  And I had a transformative experience in how I relate to what I
• 8:00
  am doing and who I
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: am and who the other person was.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we'll get into that on the second half.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really profound.
• 8:09
  So it was like a mix of somebody you thought was potentially a
• 8:14
  knowledge holder.
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  And then it sort of dovetailed into where you were in your own
• 8:19
  experience and your own life.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So when you actually met him, he had finished the year in India.
• 8:30
  Because I've read what he wrote about himself when he was in
• 8:32
  India and he had quite
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: a,
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: he categorized himself in quite a significant way.
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  SPEAKER_01: He referred to himself as an Arahant,
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  SPEAKER_01: which would indicate in traditional Buddhist categorization,
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  SPEAKER_01: it would mean he's at a significant level.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's certainly what he believed that he was.
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  SPEAKER_01: So did you ever talk to anyone about what he was like before and after?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Did people notice a difference in that year?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: I obviously didn't know him before.
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  SPEAKER_03: he had a lot of almost contradictory things he said about that year.
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  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_03: and I'm going to characterize it from what I can remember,
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  SPEAKER_03: but he got disillusioned in India also.
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  SPEAKER_03: He's always been a studier of spiritual mysticism, you know, and then
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: taught me a lot about early Christian mysticism, early Jewish mysticism.
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  SPEAKER_03: In fact, Freud was a student of
• 9:52
  And he was very enamored with a variety of religions that came
• 9:58
  out of India.
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  SPEAKER_03: And this is pretty simplistic.
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  SPEAKER_03: I'm not the expert on laying God out of India.
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  But what I heard him say is that the everyday person in India
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  just wasn't very enlightened.
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  SPEAKER_03: He kind of had this idea that we're going to be enlightened.
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  And he felt there was just as much mysticism in families and
• 10:26
  gaslighting as there
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  SPEAKER_03: anywhere else.
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  SPEAKER_03: And that was one of his biggest focuses.
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  SPEAKER_03: So that was a bit of his disillusionment.
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  And as far as him being a high being,
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  I have to say I can't argue with that too much.
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  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
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  SPEAKER_03: He was not just intellectually brilliant.
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  SPEAKER_03: He was plugged into something that most people aren't.
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  SPEAKER_03: That was, I don't know, if I call it transcendent.
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  SPEAKER_03: It was certainly deeply compassionate and incredibly open-minded.
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  SPEAKER_03: a wider view of existence than just ordinary consciousness gives people.
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  So I think after India,
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  in a way,
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  he was more grounded because I think that he...
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: was enamored in spirituality.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think, again, these are just, I was in my 20s, Michael.
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  I mean,
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  I don't,
• 11:40
  this is only grounded in personal experience and my reading of
• 11:43
  them.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: But that was my experience.
• 11:46
  He got kind of into these body-based things,
• 11:49
  ferry into yoga,
• 11:51
  really brought yoga back.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_03: That was like central.
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  If you're going to be involved with him and his people,
• 11:58
  you're going to do yoga.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then he got into, just to touch lightly on that, to rebirthing.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: Stan Groff spent some time there in the early days of holotropic.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_03: I thought before it was what it is now.
• 12:16
  He got involved with a lawyer from France who was dedicated to
• 12:21
  birth without violence.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: He was very interested in prenatal life.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then the stages of development.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: So compared to the body, it's kind of interesting.
• 12:36
  Because,
• 12:36
  you know,
• 12:37
  a lot of these traditions,
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  yoga is nearly absolutely part of it.
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  And I think one of the things that I witness is it kind of
• 12:45
  stops people getting too
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: much into their mind.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if they're doing this sort of bodily work,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: and I think what's been unhelpful is this term mindfulness.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: I prefer the word awareness because it takes in the whole body,
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  SPEAKER_01: whereas some Westerners,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: they get into this idea of mind and mindfulness,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: and I think something's lost.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I notice in a lot of the traditions,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: even the stronger mind traditions,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: they always have a yogic component.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So even Dzogchen, where it was very, very focused on mind,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there is accompanying sort of yogas that one can do.
• 13:24
  My experience of Ronnie was going into the mental health world
• 13:32
  as a change of
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: career and being horrified by what I was witnessing.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: This is in like 2006, I think.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then very luckily, Adrian Lang had re-released his biography.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I just picked it up off the shelf and I'm reading.
• 13:53
  I was slipping into this deep despair because I just couldn't
• 13:57
  understand why,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: this was in London,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: why people were being treated the way they were.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I saw people who were completely presentable and then three months later,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: they were physically unrecognizable.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: I knew it was the medication.
• 14:10
  Everyone else seemed to be in denial of this and we're just
• 14:13
  sort of so stuck.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I read his book,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: it was like Ronnie was whispering and he was saying things like,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: this is not the side effects of the medication.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is the effects of the medication.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: That was like...
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I was halfway through the book and I lived in East London.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: I literally threw it down and walked to Kingsley Hall.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's how inspired I was from my land or wherever it was.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: But jumping back,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: there's great parallels here with what I would call a ram raid on the
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: transcendental.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you get people with,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: and it's not a criticism,
• 14:51
  but have a limited base of experience or spiritual practice or
• 14:55
  any sort of
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: practice.
• 14:56
  And then they maybe take a psychedelic and they have an
• 15:00
  experience that sort of
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: shatters through,
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: but there's no foundation with which to hold.
• 15:06
  So I think that the fact that he was going to India and
• 15:08
  immersing himself in these
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: quite heavy insight practices without a foundation,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: and able to come back, and it seemed to have some degree of integration.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think that speaks a little bit to who he was.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: For people who are only tuning in,
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: we're talking about Ronnie Lang,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: who's a very famous psychiatrist from the sort of 60s and 70s,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: who certainly still features large in my life,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: and I think yours too,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: because you...
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: what is it, 11 years now you've been running a symposium on Ronnie?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: 13.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: 13.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to say a little bit about that?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'll go back to that in a second.
• 15:55
  I just wanted to add about mindfulness and then the notion of
• 16:03
  my body,
• 16:04
  right?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a full separation,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: but in addition to yoga,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: Ronnie turned me on to get acupuncture treatments regularly.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_03: And so, and of course in England, that was somewhat mainstream.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: Homeopathy was mainstream.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: So all I knew was that you treat the whole body.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I was in psychotherapy.
• 16:37
  something I didn't think I was going to do,
• 16:39
  but once I was there,
• 16:40
  that's what you did.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I was in psychotherapy four times a week and getting acupuncture,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: doing yoga,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: just to say it was phenomenal.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: for a variety of reasons,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: I left the UK and kind of pulled away from the scene around the lane.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: First off, he died pretty soon after I was gone.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: But my main mentor,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: analyst,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: training analyst,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: the person I really looked up to is a man named Hugh Crawford,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: the psychiatrist himself,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: very close friend of Ronnie's.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: And he did die before I left.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I came back to America.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't really remember the entire trajectory.
• 17:34
  I got very much more involved in getting back to what I think
• 17:37
  was kind of my roots
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: and started studying shamanism.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: We'll talk about that later.
• 17:45
  But I was going back and forth to the UK again because I spent
• 17:48
  about four years in Cambridge.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: Another long story.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: So it's going back and forth.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And my close colleague,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Michael Thompson,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: said to me,
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 18:01
  we're going to do this weekend in New York to honor the 25th
• 18:04
  anniversary of
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Ronnie's step.
• 18:07
  And we're inviting everybody who used to be involved with him
• 18:10
  or still involved with him.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't you come?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: And honestly, I hadn't thought about playing much.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I thought about it.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: I was so imbued with all that that it just was part of me.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that's how it started.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: We did a weekend.
• 18:28
  And a lot of people hadn't seen in years that I'd been in
• 18:31
  households with,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: that I'd been in training programs with and all that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: It was phenomenal.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: You could just, it was fair to blame back.
• 18:41
  This was a weekend symposium,
• 18:44
  people delivering papers,
• 18:47
  but it was like a love fest.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's precisely because those were the two sides of Lang,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: sort of deep,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: compassionate love and understanding and high intellect.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: And, um,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: Michael invited Fritjof Capro,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: who had been a colleague of Lang's,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: that I'd never met,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: because kind of parallel lives,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: but I was obsessed with the Tao of Physics,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: his main book.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: So from that weekend, I felt like I saw this awakening of, oh my God.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: We have got to bring this knowledge that people need to understand.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: Ronnie Lang has this profound impact on the mental health.
• 19:37
  And I will add that when I came back to America,
• 19:40
  I went to work at psychiatric hospitals.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: for a while and became a therapist.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I was really intent on changing the system.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know how well that goes.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: But I had a little success.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, that was started.
• 19:56
  And then I said to Michael,
• 19:58
  but Michael,
• 19:59
  we need to bring body-based practices into this.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: This is all talking heads.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: And Ronnie was as much about
• 20:09
  performative and body-based and rebirthing and traveling and
• 20:16
  altered states of
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: consciousness as he was about theoretical
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: philosophical and psychological according principles.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that's when I said,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: first off,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: we're going to bring it to East Coast,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: to Esalen,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: where Ronnie had been in his early days,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm going to do a full day of breathwork practices.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: And my sole intention for that was to help practitioners understand that
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: That you could go in and out of altered states.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: You can understand altered states from an experiential place in order to
• 21:01
  essentially be a better therapist and to understand extreme
• 21:04
  states consciousness.
• 21:06
  That may have been more information than I wanted,
• 21:08
  but that's what happened.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then we did it for 10 years or whatever at Isla.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: Now, now, it's still a mom.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I need to unpack.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I need to unpack a lot because it was so much.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: So let's speak to the symposium.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's still going.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been 93, so it's going to be my fourth year.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely incredible bunch of people.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: But your breath works that we'll get into.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's nearly a whole day event, isn't it?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: So for 13 years, it's been a big part of people's experience.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: But before we get to that, let's go back to the body-mind.
• 21:45
  So I'm fascinated by this because I hear a lot of people using
• 21:49
  the word somatic.
• 21:51
  And they're using the word somatic like talking therapists
• 21:55
  aren't necessarily
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: working in the somatic.
• 21:58
  But for me,
• 22:00
  when I think back to Freud,
• 22:01
  Freud started off in the somatic era.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: That was the presentation.
• 22:04
  So if you said,
• 22:06
  what are a couple of the characteristics of the most complex
• 22:10
  people you see?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: A somatic presentation would always be there at the top,
• 22:16
  which means there's always a conversation about the
• 22:19
  relationship or the lack of
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: relationship with one's body.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: But you're taking that
• 22:28
  a stage further by actually getting people to totally focus and
• 22:34
  perhaps movement
• 22:35
  and then the breath works where do you think it's going wrong
• 22:41
  if you do think it's
• 22:42
  going wrong in terms of you know you made the comment about
• 22:44
  Michael and you know
• 22:45
  it's very heady and talking where do you think the disconnect
• 22:48
  is because I don't
• 22:49
  experience that when I'm with somebody I feel I'm working with
• 22:53
  the totality and the
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: body is very much in there
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: I actually don't think Michael,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: and certainly not you,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: but others don't experience a disconnect either.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yet,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: the vast majority of what we're grinding out as therapists,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: and I don't mean to disparage the field,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: but really does focus on more of a cognitive,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: take maybe an emotional connection to the cognitive.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes...
• 23:27
  Now we're even doing dialectical cognitive behavioral therapy,
• 23:32
  which brings in some spiritual.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you can,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: because we're not separate mind,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: brain body,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: mind bodies,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: you're going to have somatic experience no matter what.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's kind of what you're saying.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:50
  I just think it's important to bring in these more body-based
• 23:57
  practices to even if
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: all you're going to do is stock therapy,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: but as a practitioner,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: it will enrich and deepen how you relate to people.
• 24:10
  I'm not saying you have to do a dance session in the middle of,
• 24:14
  but that would be great.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: Or a yoga session.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: But, you know, Lang essentially said that.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: He said, you know, you've got to do all this stuff.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that what I've noticed at these seminars,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm so thrilled you started coming,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: Michael.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
• 24:37
  Just to say,
• 24:39
  I could talk a lot about you,
• 24:41
  which if you'd let me,
• 24:42
  I would.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: But you've been in a really important, particularly because...
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: You weren't with us,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: but you've totally embodied it,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: what I consider a profound ability to be with you.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: So at Esalen,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: what I noticed,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: first year,
• 25:05
  and it was a little risky because the format was all day kind
• 25:13
  of living to stay.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: It was like being at any conference.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Very intelligent, well-run people for delivering papers.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: They were beautiful.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: And they were coming from a place of compassion and all that.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: And then we did the breath work.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: And what was noticed right away,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: what the participants were saying,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: was they were so much open to the theoretical after that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_03: Having experienced that.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: what this theory was about.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I've actually do the breath a little earlier in the process now,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: but it still may be,
• 25:55
  the theoretical was so wonderful and the community that was
• 26:00
  formed around sharing
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: the ideas was profound.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I will say,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: as much as I'm talking about Lang and body-based,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: it was an amazing experience to be around people
• 26:15
  for those 10 years who were talking from an intellectual place
• 26:21
  about ideas and
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: theories and figuring things out.
• 26:24
  I mean,
• 26:26
  I came back to America and after 20 years,
• 26:31
  I was able to go back to London.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: That was the first time and I saw some of my language friends and
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: We had a gathering and I was blown away by the depth of intensity of the
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: conversations at dinner that I hadn't experienced in a long time.
• 26:51
  And I think that's one of the things that we created with these
• 26:54
  symposiums.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's beautiful.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's definitely a sense of community.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the greatest appeals.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: On top of all the smarts and the insights and the experience,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: just that sense of a beautiful community.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're like a thoroughbred.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to stop galloping because you get so...
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: I buy to your experience and your knowledge,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: but it's just so much to get into.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So going back to the body and the somatic,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: so my experience has not always,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: but nearly always been
• 27:29
  Someone will come to a first session and they'll nearly say
• 27:33
  what the core issue is.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: So somebody could say, I was horrifically abused as a child.
• 27:41
  And I feel that one of my core functions is to help the person
• 27:48
  find the emotional
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: equivalent to the intellectual understanding of
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I see that movement as one that goes from a mind,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: like a cognitive appreciation of maybe what has happened into a bodily.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, yeah, I was horrifically abused as a child.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's session one.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a year later, it's like,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God, the depth of the ramifications of that experience.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that could take a long time to go.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: But it's nearly like someone has an idea and they can hold it.
• 28:22
  But that movement,
• 28:23
  I think,
• 28:24
  from sort of intellectual,
• 28:26
  cognitive into emotional is very somatic.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's nearly shown in how they...
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: how they hold themselves in session and in group.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Are you saying that that can be accelerated,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: do you think,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: through alternatives like movement,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: like breath works,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: dare I say it,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: psychedelics,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: although I'm not recommending it,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: although we have talked about it a lot on this.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: I believe you can accelerate.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm riffing here, but a parallel, and this is off the top of my head.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So in meditative traditions,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: if you take,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure whether it's the same in Neo Vedanta,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: but in sort of the Pali Canon Buddhism,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: they very much focused on the dhyanas,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: the higher states of consciousness.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 29:20
  So you get a lot of meditators who are seeking great conditions
• 29:24
  so that they can go
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: up into higher.
• 29:27
  So they start off into a concentrated state and then an
• 29:29
  absorbed state and then carry on.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: but the actual higher states are not necessary for insight.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: So what they would need to do,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: if they could do it,
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: what they do is they go up into a higher level,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: but then come down to do more reflective or insight practice.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I just drew a parallel there.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: So both are on stage two.
• 29:53
  But are you saying that the movement and the breath works
• 29:56
  basically goes up into
• 29:57
  higher levels that will support the level two work in a way
• 30:03
  that perhaps is faster?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: That could happen.
• 30:11
  When I think of it in terms of indigenous Shani practices and
• 30:17
  the concept of lower
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: world,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: middle world,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: upper world,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: Jung talked about this a lot.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: what can happen in breath work is you might journey to the lower world,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: which is...
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: it's still...
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: In some ways,
• 30:37
  you could say that is going up into a level of transcendence
• 30:41
  because you were
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_03: having a transcendental experience,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: but it might be one that is filled with discomfort.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it might be...
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: reviewing your biography from a painful place.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: It might be plugging into the pain of other people around the world.
• 31:06
  Or sometimes people have very convinced of what they call
• 31:11
  awkward world experience.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: So they feel like they've seen God or angels or the universe.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or flying around to Esalen like an eagle.
• 31:20
  Yeah.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: People become animals.
• 31:26
  But,
• 31:26
  you know,
• 31:28
  and sometimes people lay completely still during growth work.
• 31:32
  And other times they're moving their body to kind of mimic that
• 31:36
  flying like an
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: eagle kind of thing.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: But either way, it's imaginal.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's imaginal.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the imaginal is an important thing to talk about.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: that our brain,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: our physical brain,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: as you probably know,
• 31:55
  doesn't know the difference between an imaginal experience and
• 32:00
  an actual physical
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: 3D experience.
• 32:04
  I.e.,
• 32:04
  that's how athletes practice imaginally and then improve their
• 32:10
  sport.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's the most implicit version of it.
• 32:13
  But I think that these imaginal experiences,
• 32:16
  altered states of conscious experiences,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: can shift how we hold and what we believe about ourselves,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: what we believe about the world,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: even our story about our past.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a lot to unpack there.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So let's take the athlete.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: So on one level,
• 32:44
  if you take a professional basketball player and ask them to
• 32:47
  throw at the hoop and
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: ask them to miss,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of them will struggle to do it because they're,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: they're,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: they're so tuned in and,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: and practice.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: But also what I was told was there's a visual component.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: So they're,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: they're kind of like visualizing the,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: the,
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: it going into the net and they have,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: they can't sort of unvisualize it.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I, I thought how much of that is, um,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: what I would call a subtle body.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like,
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: not like they're present and the subtle body is their,
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: their mind is totally present and embodied.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: The two have come together.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the, the,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'll diverge quickly.
• 33:34
  So it would be like somebody walking across a high bridge that
• 33:38
  everyone knows is
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: structurally solid,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: but they get sort of a quarter way across and then they panic,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: the fear.
• 33:47
  So their subtle body is out of sync with the physical body
• 33:52
  because the subtle body
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: is about the fear of falling and all the rest of it.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: if you did the work with them,
• 33:57
  you might be able to get the subtle body to come back into the
• 34:00
  physical body and
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: then they realize,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: let's see if I can walk across the bridge.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: So do you think it's somewhere in that sort of area where the, yeah.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get into Breathworks a little bit.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to plug your book as well.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Soul Whispering, The Art of Awakening Shamanic Consciousness.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think of you as a,
• 34:26
  I have to choose my words carefully because sometimes you tell
• 34:28
  me off using the wrong words.
• 34:31
  I think you're probably one of the best in the field in
• 34:36
  Breathworks and you've got
• 34:37
  an incredible reputation and that's partly why we're going to
• 34:40
  Ireland together to
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: share that.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to us about what is Breathworks?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 34:49
  it's interesting because these days that term has been kind of
• 34:54
  co-opted and used by
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: a lot of people.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: And what I've seen is it's used to talk about a deep breathing exercise.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of yoga teachers use it.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: And they sometimes put music to it.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: So what I know for it to be
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: came originally from Stengroff.
• 35:21
  And he was looking for ways to let people go into altered
• 35:26
  states once psychedelics
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: or LSE became illegal.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of how it started.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: And he designed this method that goes like this.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: You lie on a comfortable mat.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: He puts on
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: or this is what you do,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: you put on music that has been put together,
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: usually without any words,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: to move you through a journey.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's very intentional.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: It starts with what you might consider more low chakra music.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's very tribal, heavy drum beating, kind of moves up into power center.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: There's harp music, and then in the end, there's music.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the music.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: These journeys last anywhere from one to two hours.
• 36:20
  I have found over the years that people are more open to these
• 36:25
  kinds of journeys.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: I used to always do two hours.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: We need to do an hour these days.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's an interesting shift in consciousness.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_03: So you have the journey.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: Typically,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: there's a person laying,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: doing the journey,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_03: and there's a person sitting next to them.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: So just hold space.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: Make sure they don't bang their head on something.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: take care of them,
• 36:49
  but also hold an important role of holding psychic space and
• 36:54
  paying attention to
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: that person.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's one or two people.
• 36:59
  that are usually trained and skilled at this that are working
• 37:07
  the whole floor and
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: might come over to a particular breather,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: pay some attention to them.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I could give you a lot of details about those kind of things.
• 37:18
  And then people come out of it and then we do some kind of
• 37:25
  circle where we do some
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: integration work.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Jacqueline Small,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: who worked with Stan Groff at Essendon for years,
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: she brought more of the psychological into it.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: So there's processing.
• 37:41
  So it's not just the journey because people can have very
• 37:47
  extensive journeys.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: flying like an eagle, going back to when they were a baby.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's whatever is in the cellular memories that's up for healing.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, people go into it often with intention.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to decide what my next career is going to be.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the journey doesn't seem to relate to that at all because our body,
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_03: our psyches are going to take us where we need to go.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: And what makes it different from using psychedelics is that,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_03: you're not,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: it's not as out of control.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 38:27
  you're not just taking this psychedelic and now you're in for
• 38:31
  eight hours or five
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: hours,
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: whatever.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's like a dual consciousness.
• 38:36
  I mean,
• 38:37
  you're very present,
• 38:38
  ordinary consciousness at the same time,
• 38:41
  the altered state.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: But I do want to say that the
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: What's so important to me is the processing and integration.
• 38:53
  And I would extend that further to say that it can be a
• 38:57
  starting point to more
• 39:00
  long-term work in therapy with someone who can work with you
• 39:04
  and the material and
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: so forth.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm not a big believer in...
• 39:10
  just doing it or the insights because if we don't integrate the
• 39:15
  insights it does
• 39:17
  you know it does some good i mean i i know people that profound
• 39:21
  healing from one
• 39:23
  psychedelic journey it's just not what i do um and i i believe
• 39:28
  we're hardwired we
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: don't don't really need the substances
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Let's come back to that.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's a big point.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a great explanation.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like therapy, this is a broad space.
• 39:46
  There seems to be more and more people saying they're offering
• 39:51
  breathworks and it's
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: different from Groff's approach and it has value.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's just different.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 40:02
  The other reason I really wanted,
• 40:03
  there's a lot of very traumatized people in Northern Ireland.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: In my naivety, I grew up there.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I went back and I did a trauma workshop and in my naivety,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: I just hadn't worked out that all that,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: I knew my own trauma.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I hadn't realized that the history is living and breathing.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm standing in Ibiza with this people associated with charity.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got a person on this side who's talking,
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: they're a child of someone who started the provisional IRA.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the other side, I've got someone who was a police man.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's peacemaking at its best.
• 40:53
  It would be like somebody from the IDF standing in the same
• 40:56
  party as somebody from
• 40:57
  Hamas and they both are aware of each other and they know
• 41:00
  what's happened in the
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: past and they're trying to reconcile.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: But extreme experience of loss and death and all the rest.
• 41:08
  So I really wanted to gift them you because I think you really,
• 41:13
  really do it well.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Going back,
• 41:15
  my experience at Esalen was I was in the famous hot tub and
• 41:19
  someone said to me,
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: you should definitely do the breath works.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's like taking five doses of ayahuasca.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I just burst out laughing.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought this was the most ridiculous thing that I'd ever heard.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I entered it as a complete skeptic.
• 41:33
  And I think,
• 41:33
  I don't know if you remember,
• 41:34
  but I said,
• 41:35
  I'm pretty skeptical.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: About five minutes in, I was off.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a journey.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very aware, you know, you create a wonderful space.
• 41:47
  So you set up something that felt very sacred and very deep and
• 41:52
  very special.
• 41:54
  Usually I would run from that because drums and stuff is like,
• 41:59
  this isn't really my bag.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I let myself drop into it and...
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of went on a journey and I got a teaching that,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: as I said before,
• 42:09
  changed how I saw myself and what I thought my role was in the
• 42:12
  world in terms of
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: therapy.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: But in terms of integration, I don't know whether I said this to you.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: I spent a year reading up about some of the things I'd experienced.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I had this sort of
• 42:25
  initiation from what it felt like an initiation from an
• 42:30
  indigenous tribe from
• 42:31
  Esalen and I was very embarrassed about it because it sounded
• 42:34
  like such a cliche
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: but I ended up,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: part of my integration was this natural propensity to read up
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: About the history of,
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: and it was nearly like,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: not that I was told to do so,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: but it felt I had to.
• 42:48
  It came up as part of that integration and it gave a real
• 42:53
  roundedness to it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: So as you say,
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: it wasn't just like this big experience because it wasn't for me,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: it was a huge experience,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: but it was like a year of trying to make sense of that.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: in small ways and in big ways.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: What sense do you make of that?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: How much of that was suggestion?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: How much of it was unconscious?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: How would you categorize it?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: Your experience?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: Or your desire to follow it up for a year?
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: My experience,
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: the sense of it was like,
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: so I've done it a few times since,
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: and it felt like I was chasing the dragon.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like I'd been given an experience that had a beginning,
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: a middle,
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: and an end,
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: and it was like,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure I could do other stuff, right?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: But it was like, it was so profound that anything after it was great.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: It was useful.
• 43:54
  I did have,
• 43:56
  I accessed things,
• 43:57
  but it didn't have that same sort of completeness.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: But going back, how much of it was suggestion?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because you were playing...
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: music that sort of matched what I was kind of experiencing and seeing.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: So there was tribal sounds and music and I should say it's very loud.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like quite intense.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a juxtaposition between sort of this sacred space and it's like,
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: but it's actually sensory wise,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: it's quite full on.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think the role of the music,
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_03: first off,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: is to get you out of your ordinary cognitive mind.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: And that music is,
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: or the use of it,
• 44:36
  the way it's put together is well-researched based on how it
• 44:41
  hits us in different
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: parts of our body.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: What I've seen over the years is that people will...
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: you can have 10 people or 20 people in the room,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: they're going to experience things differently.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: One person is going to say, oh, that piece, what was it?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: That changed everything.
• 44:59
  Somebody else was for somebody else because I think it hits a
• 45:04
  place in your body
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: and your psyche.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_03: and it's important not to separate them, that's up for healing.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_03: They're where there's something, something to explore.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: So that's one thing about the meaning.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, there's a lot of artificial suggestion.
• 45:20
  I mean,
• 45:21
  you can draw acid or ayahuasca,
• 45:25
  and there's always a set and setting.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, because we're humans, we need ritualism.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: We need ceremony.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: We need containers to, I believe, give us the freedom to open up.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I've done this thousands of times with at least hundreds of people.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I've done the birth experience myself many times.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: Never the same.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's never what I expect.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: My journeys are wildly different.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, the first time I did it is very memorable.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: It was initiatory.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's just kind of how it is.
• 46:12
  And the fact that you spent a year kind of working that for
• 46:17
  yourself is brilliant.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I wish I would be able to do that.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: I certainly encourage people to continue to follow up.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: I like people to lead the
• 46:28
  integration processing circle time with a nugget of what does
• 46:34
  this mean about your life?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: How does this apply?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it also plugs us into the collective consciousness,
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_03: Fijong would say,
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: or just the shared humanity.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: I had an experience right after 9-11.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I had done a lot of breathwork at that point,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: so I was kind of used to the place I went and how to work it.
• 47:11
  But I remember intentionally almost asking my psyche to help me
• 47:18
  understand how
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: someone could be like Hitler or Ben Laden,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: beyond the kind of obvious stuff I can think of.
• 47:26
  And my psyche complied and took me to almost like I felt like
• 47:32
  you'd embodied.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_03: At that time, it was Bin Laden.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: It could have been Hitler.
• 47:37
  And I could see,
• 47:38
  oh,
• 47:40
  I'm as capable of that kind of great,
• 47:43
  vindictive harm as anyone is.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that was interesting enough.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: But I think the more profound piece...
• 47:53
  was when some I had to wear with them all to ask myself and all
• 47:56
  that alter state in
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: that journey,
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: where in my life am I already being callous,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: unthinking,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_03: selfish,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_03: causing harm,
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_03: any harm?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that took me to a place that was really hard to look at.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because while I'm not out doing men's murder,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: My psyche gave me a vision of all the little tiny microaggressions,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: you might call them,
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: microharm that I'm doing.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it changed me.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: It set me on a path of understanding microaggressions, microharm.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_03: So, I mean, I'm sharing that.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know why I'm sharing it,
• 48:49
  but partly because you can use these kinds of experiences to
• 48:55
  dig a little deeper,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: to really look at how is it in your life,
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: rather than they're the bad people,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: I would never be like that,
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good,
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: self-righteous,
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: whatever.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_03: It can cure self-righteousness.
• 49:15
  So I felt overwhelmed there with emotion when you were
• 49:20
  describing that because I,
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: and I probably won't be able to put this into words,
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: but I've had a very similar experience.
• 49:26
  I wouldn't use the word collective,
• 49:27
  I would use the interconnectedness of all things.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: And the experience I had was,
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mean this in an egotistical way, probably the opposite.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: I am responsible.
• 49:40
  So when I look out into the world and I see all this terrible
• 49:44
  stuff that I want to
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: fix,
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: actually,
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_01: unless I do what you just said,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: it's not going to change.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than me look abroad about what's not right,
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: what's right in front of my nose?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: What is the conflict?
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: Where am I lacking in compassion and my responsiveness?
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: You used to be beautiful, these sort of microaggressions, right?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I see it in activism.
• 50:13
  You know,
• 50:14
  I see people who perhaps are very,
• 50:16
  very angry and they're screaming and shouting.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't feel,
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: and this isn't everyone,
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: there are some folks I don't believe is coming from a place of love.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's coming from a place of perhaps hate.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think you can be very angry and rageful in a performative way,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: but it's coming from a place of love.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I want things to be different.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: But this idea that...
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't want to go too far into this,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: but it was a sense of,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: of absolutely,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: don't point the finger.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: because actually there's four fingers pointing back at you, right?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: Focus on what you can do in your immediate.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: You brought in Hitler,
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: so I had this sort of trip on Hitler where it was like,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at the integrative sort of approaches to different levels,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: and if you think of Hitler as in a state of tribal consciousness,
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: I looked at Hitler as he'd peaked.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: So what is the peak?
• 51:22
  If you were at the peak of that consciousness that all I can
• 51:25
  see is the tribe,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 51:27
  you're going to wipe out anything that gets in the way of
• 51:30
  weakening the tribe.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's like... And then I got into this levels where I couldn't unsee it.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take racism...
• 51:42
  so somebody points to someone as a racist so if they have
• 51:46
  transcended their tribal
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: consciousness and they're more in an expansive consciousness or a global
• 51:51
  consciousness they can see that racism just doesn't fit into
• 51:54
  that and they might
• 51:57
  have an aversion to someone who's a racist but the next stage
• 52:02
  of consciousness is
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: to bring them with you
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a lot of people stuck.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: So this isn't political, but it's political.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: When Hillary Clinton called the Trump supporters deplorables,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: I knew she was stuck on that stage.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: So she's transcended racism.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: She's sort of on a more global progressive consciousness.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: But she was missing the point, you have to bring them with you.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because actually,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: and I've had this many times,
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: there are different types of tribal consciousness and sometimes it can be
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: ignorance.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: People haven't actually had the exposure to the conversation.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of a situation where someone was very homophobic.
• 52:51
  But they were allowed to have a conversation with a couple of
• 52:54
  gay men who basically
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: unpacked that homophobia.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I was witness to this.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: It came from,
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: how they were raised,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: what they thought of the Bible,
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: their ideas around sexuality.
• 53:09
  But they had the opportunity to shift their consciousness
• 53:12
  because they were able to
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: have a difficult conversation.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think we,
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: and this is a bit of a rant,
• 53:20
  I think we are regressing into a more primitive state of mind
• 53:24
  where all good is
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: here and all bad is over there.
• 53:27
  I think we need to get into the space of having difficult,
• 53:32
  uncomfortable conversations.
• 53:34
  Like the conversation that must have initially been difficult
• 53:38
  for those two men who
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: were listening to someone saying,
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: your existence is wrong.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to go to hell or whatever because of what...
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: But when he was allowed to engage and they were able to hold that space,
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: he transformed,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: his consciousness transformed.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think of that in terms of where we're at?
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think we're going backwards a little bit.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: I agree.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_03: There's a polarisation that's happening currently that... I think it's...
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: kind of a backlash to a lot of things,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: but more importantly,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: it might be a stage in human evolution from the big picture.
• 54:26
  That very simple having a conversation with someone who you
• 54:34
  think is a they,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's profound.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's one really.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's why reconciliation work is profound.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's why restorative justice is worked.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: And at the risk of sounding too reductionist.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: Oh boy, I'm going to tread on this lightly too.
• 54:55
  It is really true in my whole experience that we have more in
• 55:00
  common than we don't.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_03: I have seen this, just like you described that situation.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: I've seen this in real time in safe containers,
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: bringing people together who are from opposite ends of whatever.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe the shift isn't dramatic, but it's there.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_03: And then, if you'll allow me to draw up another realm, which is
• 55:33
  for people to be able to do the work to look and find inside of
• 55:38
  themselves their
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: internalized racism,
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: their internalized homophobia,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: for lack of better work.
• 55:48
  I have done a lot of work with people in diverse groups and
• 55:54
  situations that are
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: feeling marginalized.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then who...
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: do some of this kind of altered state of conscious work,
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_03: whether it's breath work or psychedelics or it's,
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: dare I say,
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: the whole process,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: who come to this realization that their anger,
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: all that's addressing them is a reflection of
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: of their internal state as well.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_03: I want to be very clear.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_03: I am not suggesting that racism and oppression isn't real, and it is.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's just another way, as you're saying, we do the work ourselves.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's how we can then be of service to work with others, to heal others.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a lot with those stories.
• 56:53
  So one of the things I really,
• 56:55
  I use the word,
• 56:57
  I think you use it too,
• 56:58
  social phenomenology.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really into the phenomenological experience.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to find out,
• 57:06
  so I moved from what's wrong with you to what's happened to you
• 57:12
  to what is that
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: like for you.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you made a great point, not at the exclusion of the context,
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I might talk to someone about what their racial experience is,
• 57:25
  but not in isolation of society and the life that they've been
• 57:32
  throwing it into.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'd make a parallel,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: which has come up many,
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_01: many times,
• 57:36
  that someone who's in an abusive relationship may not know
• 57:40
  they're in an abusive
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: relationship.
• 57:41
  I've worked with people who have been...
• 57:44
  They've thought they've had a partner...
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: and the partner was really manipulating them to be sex workers.
• 57:57
  it took a long time for them to realize that wasn't your
• 57:59
  boyfriend,
• 58:01
  right?
• 58:01
  So it has to be,
• 58:05
  what is that like for you,
• 58:07
  but in the social context,
• 58:10
  right?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's an important distinction to make.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think, what would be the accelerator?
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you mentioned altered states.
• 58:26
  do you think that's the accelerator to bring people I mean
• 58:29
  because not everyone can
• 58:30
  have those conversations not everybody wants to pause that I
• 58:35
  want to tell you
• 58:36
  something first I was asked to it was actually by a pastor he
• 58:40
  asked me could I help
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: his church talk to their enemies because I was doing a lot of peace and
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: reconciliation work so this was in Chicago and
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I went along and what it was,
• 58:52
  was they had an environmental group and they wanted to talk to
• 58:56
  climate deniers.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: I said, oh, this is fascinating.
• 59:00
  So I went away and thought about it and then I came back and I
• 59:01
  did a presentation
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: and I talked as I do.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then my big reveal was, how do you talk to people who are fearful?
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was like pulling back a screen.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: They then asked me to do it for the whole of Illinois.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: So all the stakeholders in these environmental groups.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it's such a simple idea.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought, I looked at their enemy and I thought, what do they need?
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: What is their core need here?
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: And their need was fear.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: They were fearful for change and fearful for this and that.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the change in the room from,
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to help us to talk about our enemies,
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: these climate deniers,
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: it's all their fault.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, they're fearful.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the connection was because we share that need.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you go, okay, you know, my need is to protect the tribe, right?
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: I can relate to that need.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: But we need to talk about the strategy.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take that to the max,
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: I came from a society and you get the two sides around the table.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what do you need?
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: We need their people to stop killing our people.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: What do you need from them?
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: We need their people to stop killing our people.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great, great, great, great.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: So how have you been going about achieving that in the last 30 years?
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: We've been killing their people.
• 1:00:27
  So it's like the conflict is always,
• 1:00:30
  I believe,
• 1:00:31
  on the level of strategy to meet the need.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: But there's no conflict in the need itself because we all share them.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mightn't be able to meet your need.
• 1:00:39
  But I can resolve the conflict if you can acknowledge that need
• 1:00:44
  in me and I can
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: acknowledge one need in you.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: That was Marshall Rosenberg taught me that.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: It could take a year.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_01: It could take 30 years to get us around the table to go,
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: I need your people to stop killing our people.
• 1:00:58
  Because for 30 years,
• 1:01:00
  my strategy has been to,
• 1:01:01
  you kill one of mine,
• 1:01:02
  we'll kill one of yours.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 1:01:07
  How do we de-trigger people so they're not constantly in battle
• 1:01:13
  mode and they can
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: put on ears where they can go,
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: they are also human,
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: they have also needs,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: but there's a tragedy here in how we're going about to meet those needs.
• 1:01:27
  Going back to what you said,
• 1:01:28
  which is we've potentially more in common than not.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_03: That's beautiful, Michael.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_03: Brings up a lot for me.
• 1:01:44
  And you're having them both at the table,
• 1:01:47
  both sides,
• 1:01:48
  and they're saying what they're saying.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think there has to be a period of having them nod to the table, right?
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_03: And each side of the equation
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_03: being given the opportunity to do their own personal healing.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_03: What's the fear?
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_03: Fear is very much at the bottom, and it's acknowledged.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_03: it's beautiful just acknowledging that it is profound,
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_03: that it's covered up with anger,
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_03: or it's covered up with defeat and sadness.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: But fear...
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's our limbic system.
• 1:02:34
  And now you walk through the forest,
• 1:02:36
  you see a stick on the ground and you think it's a snake.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_03: But we're just...
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_03: So helping people on wire,
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_03: mentally,
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_03: emotionally,
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_03: physically,
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_03: from fear does not create a world where things aren't scary.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't create a world where everything is okay.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: It creates resilience.
• 1:03:06
  And it's a good thing when you're walking through the forest
• 1:03:10
  that you look at a
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_03: stick and think it might be a snake so that you can assess.
• 1:03:16
  It's certainly better than being a snake and you think,
• 1:03:19
  oh,
• 1:03:19
  it's just a stick.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'll pick it up.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's what a two-year-old will do.
• 1:03:23
  So I think one of the fundamental psychological problems is
• 1:03:27
  we're trained out of healthy fear.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_03: We're trained out of healthy fear.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_03: We're gaslit out of it.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_03: And we're taught to go to anger because it's more functional.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: We can do something.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: Or sadness because then you can collapse.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_03: So that's profound.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_03: The fear piece.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine if a politician came on the news and went, I'm really fearful.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: Are you?
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, where are we going here?
• 1:03:57
  I think that,
• 1:03:59
  I don't want to get too technical,
• 1:04:00
  but you mentioned about the same room.
• 1:04:02
  You know,
• 1:04:03
  if you take the Northern Ireland peace process,
• 1:04:04
  a lot of it was proximity.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you came to the peace talks,
• 1:04:08
  but one group in one room and another group in another room and
• 1:04:13
  before you could
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: get them in.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think similar things happen in...
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: in Qatar with Russia and Ukraine.
• 1:04:21
  The only issue with that is that it's wide open to manipulation
• 1:04:24
  because I could go
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: into your room and go,
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: Nita said that she'd be willing to do this.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: Would you be willing to do X?
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they go, yeah.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I go into you and go, yeah.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, there.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a little bit of an ethical component to it.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: But again, a lot of...
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is just me free associating.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of couples,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:04:43
  going back a long time when I've seen couples and I'm
• 1:04:47
  witnessing two people who
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: want the same thing.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: They want the same,
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: they both have the same needs,
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: but they've fallen out on the level of strategy to meet the needs.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_01: And what's preventing them move is both are hurting.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: So someone needs to make a move,
• 1:05:05
  but neither will do it because he hurt me or she hurt me or
• 1:05:08
  they hurt me to the
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: point where I'm not going to make the move.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say, people might say, well, why should I make the move?
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: I always say, because you're the one who's aware.
• 1:05:20
  you're hurting and you know that if you say this you could
• 1:05:23
  diffuse it well why
• 1:05:25
  should I because you're aware that you could do it I'm sorry
• 1:05:30
  but you're the one who
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: can see it because you can see it you're kind of responsible
• 1:05:35
  But it's so painful to witness that two beings or a group of
• 1:05:39
  beings actually want
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: the same thing,
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_01: which I would say most people in America want the same thing.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's controversial.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_01: They want peace and connection and their daily bread.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just got into this current state where everyone is...
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's a climate denier or whatever pejorative they want to use.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: But underneath that,
• 1:06:04
  I think you're pointing to what would happen if we got below
• 1:06:07
  the strategy and just
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: talked about what we need,
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: which I'm going to make a plug here.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_01: So in 2027,
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm going to do the encounter 2027,
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: which was to bring five Democrats and five Republicans to Belfast.
• 1:06:27
  for an encounter group that would be filmed and just say it
• 1:06:31
  went well then take the
• 1:06:34
  video back to America and ask people to have viewing groups
• 1:06:40
  where they invite
• 1:06:41
  people here from a different political side and then they watch
• 1:06:44
  the encounter group
• 1:06:45
  of what happened when these people met and connected so you
• 1:06:50
  sound enthusiastic so
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: are you up for helping with that?
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I definitely.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_03: You touched on something really important.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_03: There's the fear that I think we're trained out of,
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_03: and I think we're also talking about unresolved pain and hurt.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_03: And the fear of sounding like a victim.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've seen that in people.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want to be the one to say I'm hurt.
• 1:07:21
  and make them look because that makes them be less than,
• 1:07:24
  maybe the powerful one.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_03: So that, and that hurts just festering, festering so deeply.
• 1:07:32
  So I think there's something to be said for working with
• 1:07:37
  unresolved trauma and hurt
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: pain as a step.
• 1:07:41
  And generationally,
• 1:07:43
  not the current generation who's very,
• 1:07:47
  talks a lot about,
• 1:07:48
  um,
• 1:07:51
  victim consciousness and you know I think I listen to people
• 1:07:56
  sometimes talk and
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_01: they would have no idea of what I've experienced in terms of
• 1:08:02
  discrimination as an Irish,
• 1:08:03
  young Irish guy in England,
• 1:08:06
  been spat out,
• 1:08:07
  called a patty.
• 1:08:09
  You know,
• 1:08:10
  because it's deemed in America,
• 1:08:13
  you know,
• 1:08:13
  you have these categories,
• 1:08:14
  right?
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_01: When I was growing up, you didn't think of yourself as white.
• 1:08:19
  You thought of yourself as a second-class citizen to the
• 1:08:22
  English because they'd
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: colonized Ireland for hundreds of years.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_01: But at that time, you just sort of sucked it up.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_01: There was nowhere really to talk about that.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: They used to have, in the 70s, no dogs, no blacks, no Irish.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: They used to put it on the bed and breakfast, the accommodation.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm fumbling this,
• 1:08:51
  but there's something in it when you were talking there of
• 1:08:53
  there's trauma and then
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: there's trauma.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: and there's underneath whatever that all that is there is
• 1:09:05
  a level of unexpressed pain and suffering that is perhaps
• 1:09:11
  getting acted out in ways
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: that are really,
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: really unhelpful.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_01: But who's going to make the first move?
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: you go back to the couples,
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_01: who's going to say,
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really hurt,
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_01: but I want to try and make,
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: hold my hand out to see whether I can connect despite that hurt.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: Despite the fact that I think perhaps you hurt me,
• 1:09:29
  I'm still going to try and put my hand out and see if we can
• 1:09:35
  come together.
• 1:09:36
  Well,
• 1:09:38
  I think that's one of the ways that you can process and resolve
• 1:09:42
  her.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_03: You speak it.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the other way is to do it without the other person in the room.
• 1:09:51
  And I work with people a lot,
• 1:09:54
  doing experiences where we encourage people to go into all
• 1:09:58
  their
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_03: and to express and speak out the rage,
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_03: the hurt,
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_03: the pain in a contained,
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_03: safe environment with the path to forgiving.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_03: You can't forgive what you haven't processed or admitted has hurt you.
• 1:10:20
  You can't forgive until you can be honest about it and get some
• 1:10:25
  healing around it.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_01: What's hurt you?
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So because of the work done in Ireland and the area of forgiveness,
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: I made a distinction between forgiveness and acceptance.
• 1:10:42
  Because what I felt I discovered was forgiveness is really
• 1:10:47
  messy and it's not
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: necessarily linear.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I might forgive you today, but tomorrow I might wake up and like not.
• 1:10:55
  Whereas acceptance as a starting point,
• 1:11:00
  you know,
• 1:11:01
  I can't undo what was done.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I can't give you back what I took from you.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or I can't give you what I didn't give you at the time.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: But we can work together to accept.
• 1:11:16
  That is a stage I think is really important before you get to
• 1:11:21
  the messiness of forgiveness.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: To me, spiritually, ultimately, forgiveness is the gold standard.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: if I really want to mess with a murderer,
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I go and see them in prison and tell them I forgive them.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well...
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I can be slightly vindictive.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it's like, that's not the person.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I've witnessed this.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the person's intention.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's not why they're doing it.
• 1:11:51
  But it can wreck the perpetrator because it's nearly worse to
• 1:11:56
  be forgiven.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because then they have to live with that.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's nearly easy to be hated for what I did than to be forgiven for it.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, whoa.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's totally true.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_03: that's the work of restored injustice in prisons,
• 1:12:09
  is you've got to let the perpetrator have their container for
• 1:12:15
  healing and the
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_03: victim have their container for healing and then bring them together.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because it is really hard to hear, I forget you for killing my son.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_03: And to mean it.
• 1:12:27
  And what I mean about forgiveness is closer to what you're
• 1:12:30
  talking about,
• 1:12:30
  acceptance.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about forgive and forget at all.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's like walking with it.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like what we're forgiving others for is that they're human.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_03: They did things out of unconscious, screwed up, whatever.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_03: We're forgiving for being human.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_03: Not for the acts, not condoning the acts.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_03: And you don't have to be over it.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, you might wake up tomorrow morning.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm still pissed off about that.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:05
  You know,
• 1:13:05
  because people can be sort of re-triggered back into it for
• 1:13:08
  whatever reason.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I learned,
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have to drop in her name and her book,
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_01: but she started the Forgiveness Project,
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_01: which was a mix of restorative justice.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things she taught me was forgiveness can come prematurely.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:34
  So she made the example of perhaps where an atrocity has
• 1:13:39
  happened to say a
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Christian church,
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And because they're Christian, we forgive, but it's actually premature.
• 1:13:48
  And actually what might be more helpful is to get into the hurt
• 1:13:51
  and get much deeper
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_01: into the acceptance of it.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I make that distinction.
• 1:13:59
  I've had these lovely experiences where I've brought someone to
• 1:14:04
  the point where
• 1:14:06
  they can get to the point of acceptance and they can get to the
• 1:14:13
  point where they've
• 1:14:13
  brought in their victim consciousness into their awareness and
• 1:14:18
  they've seen the
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: offer of shifting into survivor consciousness and they've actually said,
• 1:14:25
  So what I brought into their awareness is their victim
• 1:14:28
  consciousness is part of their identity.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: They wronged me, they hurt me, they did this.
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_01: How else could I live my life than this way because of what's been done?
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they go through all this work and then they realize,
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_01: oh yeah,
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: I can accept,
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: I can see the potential of moving into survivor consciousness,
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't want to.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_01: I want to stay with my...
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I had so much respect for that because to me there,
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_01: there's an agency in that because it's all,
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_01: it's all in,
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_01: in awareness,
• 1:15:00
  but they kind of know themselves and they're deciding that's
• 1:15:03
  much better than,
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: than being in it and not kind of in a way realizing that you're in it.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I think it's a, a place that you can choose to be.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 1:15:18
  And I would like to encourage people to take that next step and
• 1:15:24
  move beyond letting
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_03: that hurt define you.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I get it.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's an identity.
• 1:15:31
  I used to work with adolescents that were ending up in
• 1:15:36
  psychiatric hospitals,
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_03: so they were pretty,
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_03: been acting out and whatever.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say to them, you know,
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_03: What are you afraid of if you step into your authenticity?
• 1:15:52
  Response is often,
• 1:15:54
  well,
• 1:15:55
  you know,
• 1:15:56
  letting them off to help me out with the authority.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_03: And there probably is some truth in it.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so this is really important.
• 1:16:07
  Just because I accept what was done doesn't mean someone stops
• 1:16:12
  being a jerk.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:16:14
  Or someone,
• 1:16:15
  just because I accept what was done doesn't stop someone being
• 1:16:18
  a horrific abuser.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really important distinction.
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's very important.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's very important to say you're not condoning it.
• 1:16:27
  It's very important to acknowledge that I think forgiveness
• 1:16:33
  primarily is for me to let go.
• 1:16:38
  And there's a difference between forgiveness and justice and
• 1:16:43
  accountability.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's also important.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_01: And those are important, very important components.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_01: But there's something really empowering about someone who realizes,
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_01: and I keep using this as an example,
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_01: that by accepting,
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: not forgiving,
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_01: but accepting the abuse of
• 1:17:07
  stops the abuse because some people are continually abused by
• 1:17:13
  the abuser because
• 1:17:14
  they haven't actually accepted very difficult territory because
• 1:17:19
  I think if people
• 1:17:19
  are listening to this they might be like throwing things at the
• 1:17:21
  screen so it's just
• 1:17:22
  a reiterate just because you accept doesn't mean you forgive
• 1:17:26
  doesn't mean that the
• 1:17:27
  person stops being the person that they are but the point about
• 1:17:33
  acceptance is I
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_01: can't change what happened anyway
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So usually a lot of the difficulty is I want it to be other than it is,
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_01: but you can't change what happened.
• 1:17:45
  So by accepting it,
• 1:17:47
  you free yourself from the continual re-traumatization.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Change the story.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're changing the story.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Of who you are.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Change the story of who you are.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_03: You've been defining yourself by that trauma, that abuse.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_03: What if you didn't?
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_03: doesn't mean you're denying the opposite.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's a real conscious move.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: it still dovetails in,
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: sort of extreme complex trauma and substance use.
• 1:18:23
  And,
• 1:18:24
  you know,
• 1:18:24
  so when I've been working in groups,
• 1:18:27
  I haven't really talked about substance use.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_01: I've just focused on the complex trauma.
• 1:18:32
  But for some people,
• 1:18:34
  they quickly realized that the substance use was
• 1:18:41
  self-medication.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the problem with some of the substances is,
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_01: so if you take alcohol,
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: I realized that alcohol preserves a wound.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you're pouring it in and it stops it.
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of stops it in that moment, but it preserves it.
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_01: So when you stop drinking, it's still festering, it's still there.
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that when people make that connection,
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_01: the substance use starts to take care of itself.
• 1:19:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's really profound.
• 1:19:17
  But again,
• 1:19:17
  it's this idea of it's only an informed choice if you're
• 1:19:20
  informed.
• 1:19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:19:24
  You know,
• 1:19:25
  some people have not made the connection between the substance
• 1:19:27
  use and the trauma.
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_01: So they can't make that informed decision.
• 1:19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, right.
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's a problem in our culture.
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:19:36
  SPEAKER_01: My father beat me and abused me and was an alcoholic.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_01: What else could I have done?
• 1:19:43
  But then someone else who's lived a very different life with
• 1:19:46
  different choices
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_01: might also say my father was abusive and what else could I have done?
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's back to,
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_01: it's not so much what happened,
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_01: but then how we choose to deal with what happened.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_01: So going back to, you'd mentioned Breathworks and you felt that
• 1:20:09
  I'm paraphrasing here that perhaps that you don't need
• 1:20:13
  mind-altering substances
• 1:20:14
  SPEAKER_01: because Breathworks can do a lot of the same thing.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_01: But we're in,
• 1:20:18
  SPEAKER_01: you took a big sigh there,
• 1:20:19
  SPEAKER_01: we're in a space where psychedelics have really come back in a big way.
• 1:20:27
  I just published The Good,
• 1:20:28
  The Bad and The Ugly on sort of ketamine therapy.
• 1:20:32
  So I can see a lot of the really exciting bits,
• 1:20:34
  but I'm also one of those people who...
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_01: when it goes really badly,
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_01: you come and see,
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:20:40
  people who have had major psychotic breaks when they've been
• 1:20:43
  doing ayahuasca or LSD
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_01: or whatever it is.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it really is, and I don't know what it's like in...
• 1:20:53
  Hawaii but certainly in Massachusetts it is huge and the desire
• 1:20:59
  to go on ceremonies
• 1:21:02
  the desire to use it recreationally I have a colleague who
• 1:21:05
  talks about for some
• 1:21:07
  people it's like taking a chainsaw out of the psyche some of
• 1:21:11
  these people are doing
• 1:21:12
  this work with no integration or support or they're just
• 1:21:16
  blasting what are your
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_01: thoughts on that and what has your experience been?
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's so complicated, isn't it?
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, what people want, what they say, what they do.
• 1:21:29
  I think it's all,
• 1:21:32
  if I might say this,
• 1:21:35
  it is a desire for a different kind of consciousness.
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 1:21:39
  the world's full pottery for spirituality and for a higher form
• 1:21:44
  of love and
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_03: connection.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um...
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_03: We live in a culture that in America,
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_03: certainly in a lot of the world,
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_03: where we're looking for quick fixes.
• 1:21:59
  We're looking for something outside ourselves to do to
• 1:22:03
  ourselves that's going to
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_03: make something happen.
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Whether that's love, sex, drugs, psychedelics.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_03: So it's complicated.
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I...
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_03: I personally spent a lot of years working in the addiction field.
• 1:22:22
  And so I wanted something that didn't involve substances that I
• 1:22:28
  could bring into
• 1:22:28
  SPEAKER_03: the addiction treatment center and work with people.
• 1:22:34
  And it was so powerful for people who were doing ultrasates
• 1:22:39
  work who had more
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_03: recovering from addiction.
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_03: as you might imagine.
• 1:22:45
  I mean,
• 1:22:46
  there's been some powerful work done with all Austin,
• 1:22:49
  all the game with addicts.
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't disparage that at all.
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's just personally, I don't do it.
• 1:23:02
  SPEAKER_03: It can go wrong.
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_03: It can go really wrong.
• 1:23:04
  Well,
• 1:23:07
  you made the point that,
• 1:23:08
  you know,
• 1:23:09
  a lot of these drugs have a lock-in.
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Even MDMA, LSD, you're locked into the experience.
• 1:23:18
  Have you seen Waves and War about the special forces who go and
• 1:23:25
  take ayahuasca and aubergine?
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 1:23:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's a film?
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a film, and part of the footage is in Stanford.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_01: They did a controlled experiment.
• 1:23:39
  So you see these folk and they're being interviewed and there's
• 1:23:45
  a deadness in their eyes.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's one guy,
• 1:23:48
  they left the room and the camera was still rolling and he was
• 1:23:52
  holding his head and
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_01: he was talking about these headaches he's been having for 10 years.
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as he said it, I knew it was somatic.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_01: So he went to Mexico with the troops and had this experience.
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Then they show you them on camera
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the deadness in the ice is gone.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_01: His headache went.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_01: No surprise.
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_01: But it was profound.
• 1:24:15
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is set, set and setting.
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_01: They were with their colleagues.
• 1:24:21
  SPEAKER_01: So some of them were at the end of their rope,
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_01: their families were at the end of their rope,
• 1:24:25
  SPEAKER_01: but they were kind of bringing each other into this space.
• 1:24:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't like just going off and doing it randomly.
• 1:24:32
  SPEAKER_01: One of the issues I have is expectations.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if you take psychedelics, you take even open dialogue.
• 1:24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Families and people who are in difficulty, they read these things.
• 1:24:48
  And then they think,
• 1:24:49
  right,
• 1:24:49
  I'll have that big experience in the same way.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's problematic,
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:24:54
  because they're entering into it with a desire for something
• 1:24:59
  that might not be
• 1:25:02
  their turn to have that big experience because perhaps they're
• 1:25:07
  not at that point.
• 1:25:09
  I've seen people fly around Esalen like an eagle and then I've
• 1:25:16
  seen people these
• 1:25:18
  experiences don't have anything near Groff might have said they
• 1:25:22
  were blocked I
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_01: think that's a bit
• 1:25:24
  a bit unfair but people are at different stages but that's not
• 1:25:27
  really factored in
• 1:25:28
  when people say oh 79% of people can get off psychiatric meds
• 1:25:32
  if they do or you
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_01: know PTSD is eradicated.
• 1:25:36
  For some people they can have that big experience but I don't
• 1:25:41
  think they're in the majority.
• 1:25:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I agree.
• 1:25:47
  Maybe people are going to do what they're drawn to do and
• 1:25:54
  seeking relief from pain
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_03: and suffering.
• 1:25:58
  SPEAKER_03: And sort of, at times, it's a misunderstanding.
• 1:26:03
  It's almost like,
• 1:26:04
  I hear this a lot from addicts,
• 1:26:07
  recovering addicts,
• 1:26:08
  that
• 1:26:11
  In addition to some real suffering,
• 1:26:13
  and listen,
• 1:26:14
  you know,
• 1:26:14
  Godborn Watte talks about that.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody,
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_03: if we're working residential treatment,
• 1:26:20
  every single person who's ended up in a residential treatment
• 1:26:24
  for drugs have
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_03: childhood trauma.
• 1:26:27
  SPEAKER_03: There's no, it's not accidental.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, the relief from that is what people are seeking.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I've had so many people, and Rick Calvary's saying,
• 1:26:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it was just a mistake to use drugs.
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Now, psychedelics sort of snap people out of that in a beautiful way.
• 1:26:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's,
• 1:26:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:26:53
  that's what it takes to recognize that ordinary life is boring
• 1:27:00
  and is suffering,
• 1:27:01
  SPEAKER_03: as the Buddhism is saying.
• 1:27:04
  SPEAKER_03: So people tend to beat themselves up if they're suffering.
• 1:27:08
  SPEAKER_03: There must be something wrong with me.
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not happy with you.
• 1:27:12
  SPEAKER_03: No, everyone suffers.
• 1:27:15
  SPEAKER_03: And let's attend to the suffering.
• 1:27:16
  I'm trying to mask it because you think on top of the
• 1:27:19
  suffering,
• 1:27:20
  you're wrong for suffering.
• 1:27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
• 1:27:23
  SPEAKER_01: It totally does.
• 1:27:24
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I was in my early 20s and I read The Road Less Traveled.
• 1:27:33
  and the first line in it was life is suffering he had a little
• 1:27:38
  asterisk and
• 1:27:39
  explained it because life is suffering because in Buddhist
• 1:27:41
  terms but it was
• 1:27:43
  literally I remember it like it was yesterday I read it and
• 1:27:45
  went oh I thought it
• 1:27:48
  was meant to be not suffering and I'm suffering because I think
• 1:27:51
  I'm meant to be not
• 1:27:52
  suffering and when I leaned into the fact is life is suffering
• 1:27:56
  it was like oh wow
• 1:27:59
  SPEAKER_01: that was just such a simple
• 1:28:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a relief.
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I talk to people about,
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Freud talked about moving from a neurotic misery to everyday misery.
• 1:28:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I talk to people about like,
• 1:28:12
  SPEAKER_01: come and join me in existential hell in the sense that,
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_01: you're mediating
• 1:28:20
  the existential givens and the challenge of everyday existence
• 1:28:23
  through a lens of
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_01: exaggerated psychosis,
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_01: depression,
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_01: anxiety,
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Come join us without that and we still have to deal with loss,
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_01: with politics,
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_01: with the grind,
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_01: but we're not doing it through those lenses or indeed substances.
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so many people...
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_01: They understandably turn to the substance to self-medicate,
• 1:28:52
  but there's a period where it shifts where the substance is now
• 1:28:55
  the primary
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_01: problem.
• 1:28:57
  And it's incredible when people take a break and they watch
• 1:29:02
  their anxiety,
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_01: their psychosis,
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_01: just drop down because the substance has actually been exasperating it.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's very powerful to witness.
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:29:19
  I mean,
• 1:29:19
  we had talked for hours about addiction and detoxing off the
• 1:29:23
  substances.
• 1:29:24
  SPEAKER_03: And once you're detoxed off the substance,
• 1:29:26
  SPEAKER_03: you're at ground zero for having to look at your pain and trauma.
• 1:29:32
  And you said something a minute ago about looking through the
• 1:29:35
  lens of suffering
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_03: should disappear.
• 1:29:43
  SPEAKER_03: We also tend to meet our lives with
• 1:29:49
  SPEAKER_03: with coping strategies who developed when we were three,
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_03: four,
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_03: and five years old to survive in our families.
• 1:29:58
  And getting people to really grow themselves up with love and
• 1:30:03
  compassion and take
• 1:30:05
  SPEAKER_03: responsibility,
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_03: which you talked about at the beginning of this,
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_03: it is so liberating,
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_03: but you're going to give up the
• 1:30:15
  SPEAKER_03: the,
• 1:30:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know,
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_03: for lack of better words,
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_03: emotional child in you that's trying to run the show.
• 1:30:21
  SPEAKER_03: That in itself is kind of addictive.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep, yep, yep.
• 1:30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I'm riffing off what you said.
• 1:30:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lovely story.
• 1:30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sharon Salzberg was with the Dalai Lama.
• 1:30:35
  SPEAKER_01: A bunch of other people think it was 1990.
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she asked the Dalai Lama, what are your thoughts on self-hatred?
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the way it was told to me,
• 1:30:45
  there was a bit of a kerfuffle and there was like a lot of
• 1:30:47
  mumbling back and
• 1:30:48
  SPEAKER_01: forward.
• 1:30:49
  And people thought it was perhaps a translation issue that the
• 1:30:52
  Dalai Lama didn't understand.
• 1:30:54
  And what sort of came out of it was the Tibetans didn't really
• 1:30:57
  have a concept of self-hatred.
• 1:31:00
  SPEAKER_01: And what I learned from that,
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_01: which I think is very fundamental,
• 1:31:03
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of Buddhist teachers coming from Tibet,
• 1:31:08
  they began teaching with the basic assumption that people were
• 1:31:11
  starting from a
• 1:31:12
  SPEAKER_01: basic sense of okayness.
• 1:31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:31:16
  So if I'm sitting with a basic sense of okayness,
• 1:31:20
  I still have to deal with suffering and life.
• 1:31:24
  SPEAKER_01: but I have a degree of positive emotion and embodiment and awareness.
• 1:31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of these teachers had to go back and rethink.
• 1:31:37
  They had to come up with teachings that brought the average
• 1:31:41
  Westerner back into
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_01: their body,
• 1:31:43
  SPEAKER_01: back towards a sense of being and...
• 1:31:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have to do the work that makes sense of the suffering,
• 1:31:54
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_01: life is suffering because of our attachment,
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_01: this type of thing.
• 1:32:00
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing,
• 1:32:01
  SPEAKER_01: and this is aside,
• 1:32:01
  SPEAKER_01: but I wanted to throw it in anyway,
• 1:32:03
  the other thing that I witness is badly taught in the West is
• 1:32:08
  people are not taught
• 1:32:09
  SPEAKER_01: the reintroduction of movement.
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So people meditate and they get some degree of peace and awareness.
• 1:32:18
  But then if they're on a meditation retreat and somebody's
• 1:32:20
  making noise over here
• 1:32:21
  SPEAKER_01: in the corner,
• 1:32:22
  they get very agitated because they become attached to a state
• 1:32:27
  of mind that is
• 1:32:29
  SPEAKER_01: aware without distraction.
• 1:32:31
  But if you can recognize awareness,
• 1:32:33
  distraction and movement can come back in.
• 1:32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's coming back in through the view of presence and awareness.
• 1:32:44
  So like the sky,
• 1:32:46
  the clouds come and go,
• 1:32:48
  but the blue sky is always there.
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there is an issue of spiritual materialism.
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_01: Trungpa used to talk about it in the West.
• 1:32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it comes back to this idea of things should be other than they are.
• 1:33:02
  when actually there's more value in starting off from the point
• 1:33:07
  of things as it is
• 1:33:11
  that was a bit of a side I'm conscious of time I wanted to
• 1:33:17
  before I ask you a
• 1:33:18
  little bit about you I wanted to ask you about Hoffman you
• 1:33:21
  mentioned it do you want
• 1:33:24
  to say a little bit what that is because you're a big wig in
• 1:33:27
  that aren't you
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_01: You love my turn of face, big way.
• 1:33:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not even politically correct, big way.
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:33:37
  But you're a significant person in the Hoffman organization,
• 1:33:40
  but you have been for many years.
• 1:33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is that fair to say?
• 1:33:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:33:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:33:47
  It's a week-long spiritual personal growth retreat that has the
• 1:33:53
  tagline of a series
• 1:33:54
  SPEAKER_03: about change.
• 1:33:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it...
• 1:34:02
  The beginning of the week really focuses very much on a deep
• 1:34:05
  dive into connecting
• 1:34:07
  SPEAKER_03: back to the child you were.
• 1:34:09
  SPEAKER_03: We take these experiences, guided visualizations, some cathartic work.
• 1:34:16
  SPEAKER_03: Go back,
• 1:34:16
  look at where you develop what we call patterns or coping
• 1:34:22
  strategies for life as a
• 1:34:24
  SPEAKER_03: five-year-old when aren't serving you anymore.
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Allow you to really
• 1:34:32
  SPEAKER_03: look at the family large,
• 1:34:36
  SPEAKER_03: where you fit in,
• 1:34:37
  SPEAKER_03: where you didn't fit in,
• 1:34:40
  SPEAKER_03: and also in a cultural context.
• 1:34:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then to move into a place of
• 1:34:47
  kind of burying that letting it go letting it go because you're
• 1:34:51
  able to really
• 1:34:51
  express those hurts we were talking about trusting the hurts
• 1:34:55
  and at the same time
• 1:34:57
  connecting to self-love so i was fascinated what you were
• 1:35:01
  saying about the defense
• 1:35:04
  not having that self-hatred and that things should be other
• 1:35:09
  than they are because
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_03: that's the first few days of the process
• 1:35:13
  SPEAKER_03: Getting past that.
• 1:35:15
  SPEAKER_03: Getting past this is life.
• 1:35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Let's come from places.
• 1:35:20
  SPEAKER_03: Self-love, self-possession, resilience.
• 1:35:23
  SPEAKER_03: And then, yeah, you got to deal with life.
• 1:35:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's a lot of work on origins, but also then...
• 1:35:37
  SPEAKER_03: At the same time,
• 1:35:38
  SPEAKER_03: connecting to this core of who you are,
• 1:35:41
  that there is an aspect of each of us that isn't covered over
• 1:35:46
  with strategies and
• 1:35:48
  SPEAKER_03: patterns and all that.
• 1:35:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's really solid and it's you and it's always been there.
• 1:35:56
  SPEAKER_03: So we give people exercises to get to that.
• 1:36:00
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:36:01
  SPEAKER_03: that we look at some really difficult aspects of being human,
• 1:36:06
  SPEAKER_03: some of which we talked about,
• 1:36:08
  SPEAKER_03: the tendency to be vindictive and self-righteous,
• 1:36:13
  SPEAKER_03: how that comes from hurt.
• 1:36:16
  Let's really look at that hurt in order to move into a place of
• 1:36:20
  acceptance,
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_03: as you would call it,
• 1:36:23
  SPEAKER_03: compassion for the human condition.
• 1:36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 1:36:27
  And people come,
• 1:36:29
  they spend six days and nights in a residential setting.
• 1:36:34
  They turn in their devices so there's no connection to the
• 1:36:38
  outside of the world.
• 1:36:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's not like they're locked in a room.
• 1:36:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, somebody needs to talk to their family member.
• 1:36:47
  SPEAKER_03: But basically digital detox, which is profound.
• 1:36:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's intense.
• 1:36:52
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very safe and it's done in community.
• 1:36:58
  groups of people that are all there in the same intention and
• 1:37:03
  bring in all kinds of
• 1:37:04
  SPEAKER_03: different histories and cultures into one room.
• 1:37:08
  SPEAKER_03: And what I've seen are people from all over the world.
• 1:37:11
  SPEAKER_03: I've had people from every economic strata possible,
• 1:37:16
  from multi-billionaires to some workers who barely could pay
• 1:37:21
  for their own
• 1:37:23
  SPEAKER_03: scholarship.
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_03: And
• 1:37:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's why I can say people are basically the same.
• 1:37:31
  And we just helped a group of people from China to start a
• 1:37:41
  Hoffman crossing to China.
• 1:37:42
  SPEAKER_03: And they all came and trained.
• 1:37:44
  SPEAKER_03: They own China, trained in America.
• 1:37:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I kept hearing from other people like,
• 1:37:50
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:37:50
  they're going to have to change the process because the culture
• 1:37:53
  is different.
• 1:37:54
  SPEAKER_03: And they even thought maybe they'd have to.
• 1:37:57
  At the end of the day,
• 1:37:58
  they're saying,
• 1:37:59
  you know,
• 1:38:02
  we're all looking for the same thing.
• 1:38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:38:05
  SPEAKER_01: I lived and worked in Malaysia for about four years,
• 1:38:08
  and obviously many of the family constellations and culture and
• 1:38:13
  things were very
• 1:38:15
  SPEAKER_01: alien to my own.
• 1:38:16
  SPEAKER_01: But under that crust...
• 1:38:20
  SPEAKER_01: were the same needs, the same fears, the same desires.
• 1:38:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a really powerful... It's powerful, isn't it?
• 1:38:28
  SPEAKER_01: ...to experience.
• 1:38:30
  But the difficulty is,
• 1:38:31
  I think,
• 1:38:31
  to have that experience,
• 1:38:32
  you need to get up close and personal.
• 1:38:35
  And we're in a culture that's McDonaldised and very fast and
• 1:38:40
  wants results.
• 1:38:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do you, because it's like, was it five, seven days, five days?
• 1:38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Six and a half.
• 1:38:48
  SPEAKER_01: How do you get that up,
• 1:38:51
  SPEAKER_01: because it sounds like you do get up close and personal to do that work,
• 1:38:54
  SPEAKER_01: how do you manage to cultivate that in such a short space of time?
• 1:38:58
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 1:39:00
  SPEAKER_03: there's groups,
• 1:39:01
  SPEAKER_03: in California,
• 1:39:02
  SPEAKER_03: there's groups of 40 participants in Canada,
• 1:39:06
  SPEAKER_03: in Connecticut,
• 1:39:07
  SPEAKER_03: where they also have centers,
• 1:39:08
  SPEAKER_03: there's only 24,
• 1:39:08
  SPEAKER_03: but
• 1:39:11
  SPEAKER_03: For every eight people,
• 1:39:13
  there's a certified facilitator teacher who's gone through
• 1:39:17
  extensive training in
• 1:39:20
  working with people and holding space for people and allowing
• 1:39:23
  people to go into
• 1:39:25
  SPEAKER_03: deep places.
• 1:39:28
  SPEAKER_03: So while it is done in groups, there's...
• 1:39:34
  SPEAKER_03: There's the container of the whole group.
• 1:39:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like if there's 40 people, there's going to be five facilitators there.
• 1:39:41
  But each facilitator also has a small group of eight that we
• 1:39:45
  meet with via Zoom
• 1:39:47
  SPEAKER_03: prior to the process.
• 1:39:48
  SPEAKER_03: We offer all kinds of follow-up with people on the tube.
• 1:39:51
  SPEAKER_03: But during the week,
• 1:39:53
  I'm paying all the attention and tracking these people and
• 1:39:56
  really supporting them.
• 1:39:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it's highly structured, highly structured.
• 1:40:02
  SPEAKER_03: So the experiences in the exercise build on them.
• 1:40:09
  SPEAKER_03: to get to this place of integrating and letting...
• 1:40:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:40:14
  SPEAKER_03: it's oversimplifying,
• 1:40:16
  but kind of letting go of the past and integrating into what's
• 1:40:20
  my life going to be,
• 1:40:21
  SPEAKER_03: not that I'm in a place of authenticity.
• 1:40:24
  SPEAKER_03: And nobody comes out of there perfectly transformed.
• 1:40:28
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, this is my personal bucket.
• 1:40:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's regulatory, it's initiatory.
• 1:40:36
  And a good starting place for therapy and other work that will
• 1:40:40
  keep you working at,
• 1:40:41
  SPEAKER_03: just as we're talking about with you.
• 1:40:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's probably a difficult question.
• 1:40:49
  What would be the qualities you see in the people who really
• 1:40:53
  get the most out of it?
• 1:40:54
  SPEAKER_01: What makes them different?
• 1:40:58
  SPEAKER_03: Well, self-love.
• 1:41:03
  having dropped the self-hatred and therefore not having to
• 1:41:07
  reject the self-hatred
• 1:41:08
  SPEAKER_03: out on the world,
• 1:41:09
  SPEAKER_03: a compassion for themselves and for others,
• 1:41:15
  SPEAKER_03: for just being human.
• 1:41:18
  SPEAKER_03: We're all in this together, doing the best we can kind of quality.
• 1:41:21
  A greater sense of responsibility for their own life and a
• 1:41:30
  sense of having grown up
• 1:41:34
  SPEAKER_03: growing themselves up with love and compassion to be a resilient adult.
• 1:41:41
  SPEAKER_01: So this is fascinating.
• 1:41:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I've fixated a bit on trauma,
• 1:41:47
  SPEAKER_01: but complex trauma,
• 1:41:50
  SPEAKER_01: the most horrific things that have happened to people,
• 1:41:56
  SPEAKER_01: it's never talking about that that causes them the emotion.
• 1:41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:42:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's always the question or,
• 1:42:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:42:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm paraphrasing,
• 1:42:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:42:06
  SPEAKER_01: you give so much to people around you in your life,
• 1:42:09
  SPEAKER_01: but you seem not to be able to love yourself or forgive yourself.
• 1:42:13
  It's like people will,
• 1:42:15
  they'll just,
• 1:42:17
  the depth of the pain comes up on that.
• 1:42:21
  SPEAKER_01: Not on what happened to them,
• 1:42:22
  SPEAKER_01: but actually often the self-loathing is because of what happened to them,
• 1:42:28
  SPEAKER_01: because I must have been a bad person for that to have happened.
• 1:42:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:42:35
  SPEAKER_03: You're talking about something that's really central.
• 1:42:39
  SPEAKER_03: to a lot of things,
• 1:42:40
  but certainly the hop in the process is there's a point in the
• 1:42:44
  process where we
• 1:42:45
  give people the opportunity to look more closely at the shame
• 1:42:51
  that they're doing,
• 1:42:53
  SPEAKER_03: what they believe about themselves.
• 1:42:56
  SPEAKER_01: That must be a big session.
• 1:42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because, and again, it is critical.
• 1:43:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm riffing here, right?
• 1:43:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gendering it.
• 1:43:07
  But my experience of working with men particularly is very
• 1:43:13
  often they'll present,
• 1:43:16
  SPEAKER_01: eventually they'll present with something that's happened to them.
• 1:43:21
  And it's nearly like a diversion because it'll take us another
• 1:43:26
  six months to really
• 1:43:28
  SPEAKER_01: talk about what has happened.
• 1:43:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's often so steeped in shame
• 1:43:36
  that it takes six months to even admit what is happening and so
• 1:43:43
  many things so many
• 1:43:43
  of the really complex things that I've witnessed over the
• 1:43:47
  decades in different
• 1:43:48
  countries isn't talked about publicly so in the UK they're
• 1:43:53
  talking a lot about
• 1:43:55
  SPEAKER_01: birth trauma as a guy I have witnessed so much medical trauma and
• 1:44:05
  mutilation all these different things but the shame is so heavy
• 1:44:10
  that it's like a
• 1:44:11
  room within a room in a room to get to the point where people
• 1:44:15
  can talk about that
• 1:44:16
  but some of the things that like for instance abuse of men by
• 1:44:20
  women for instance or
• 1:44:21
  within the family that seems to carry a particular shame for
• 1:44:25
  the man right um
• 1:44:29
  But the reason I went there,
• 1:44:30
  so I'm thinking,
• 1:44:31
  how do you get there in a week?
• 1:44:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:44:33
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm talking about six months for someone to...
• 1:44:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 1:44:40
  SPEAKER_03: Michael,
• 1:44:42
  SPEAKER_03: I recommend you come and find out there some...
• 1:44:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah?
• 1:44:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's pretty difficult to explain it.
• 1:44:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:44:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's a lot to do with the really safe container.
• 1:44:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think digital detox...
• 1:44:57
  SPEAKER_03: It has a lot to do with it.
• 1:44:58
  It's a residential setting where you're beating all your meals
• 1:45:02
  you're provided.
• 1:45:03
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to think about any of that stuff.
• 1:45:07
  SPEAKER_03: Where are you going to sleep?
• 1:45:08
  SPEAKER_03: When are you going to sleep?
• 1:45:08
  SPEAKER_03: What are you going to eat?
• 1:45:11
  SPEAKER_03: So that helps.
• 1:45:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's a set and setting.
• 1:45:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then some tried and trued experiential pieces based in some
• 1:45:27
  SPEAKER_03: ancient teachings.
• 1:45:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Bob Hoffman was hanging out with the Sam Groff.
• 1:45:36
  SPEAKER_03: He was hanging out with all the neurological, basically did the integral.
• 1:45:42
  SPEAKER_03: A bunch of those people in those days.
• 1:45:45
  SPEAKER_03: So he took bits and pieces and just put it together brilliantly.
• 1:45:54
  SPEAKER_03: But there's
• 1:45:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's dealing with shame.
• 1:45:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's dealing with indignity.
• 1:46:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's dealing with parental...
• 1:46:04
  SPEAKER_03: People carry so much anger at their parents,
• 1:46:06
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to admit.
• 1:46:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of embarrassing for all of us.
• 1:46:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, really?
• 1:46:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm 50 and I'm still pissed off at my parents.
• 1:46:13
  SPEAKER_03: But what you're pissed off at
• 1:46:15
  SPEAKER_03: is this mythical internalized parent of your childhood.
• 1:46:21
  SPEAKER_03: That human being,
• 1:46:22
  they're just doing what they do because of their generational
• 1:46:26
  trauma and so forth.
• 1:46:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the important piece,
• 1:46:34
  SPEAKER_03: and it really comes down to it,
• 1:46:36
  SPEAKER_03: is the way you can get to all that in a week.
• 1:46:40
  SPEAKER_03: is quickly connecting people to their own self-love,
• 1:46:43
  SPEAKER_03: their own self-process,
• 1:46:44
  SPEAKER_03: to listen to their own voice that they've been trained out of.
• 1:46:50
  SPEAKER_03: They've been told is bad and wrong.
• 1:46:52
  And to distinguish between that deep,
• 1:46:56
  authentic voice or guidance and this weird,
• 1:47:03
  unconscious...
• 1:47:06
  it's not shadow,
• 1:47:07
  it's not union shadow,
• 1:47:09
  but just this kind of outdated survival thing.
• 1:47:16
  SPEAKER_03: rhetoric we listen to.
• 1:47:17
  SPEAKER_03: You're a bad person.
• 1:47:18
  SPEAKER_03: You're not going to be weak if you do this.
• 1:47:20
  SPEAKER_03: You shouldn't do that.
• 1:47:21
  SPEAKER_03: You must be this or this.
• 1:47:23
  SPEAKER_03: You're that.
• 1:47:26
  SPEAKER_03: If you stop and listen to that voice, it's terrifying.
• 1:47:30
  And so we do a lot to teach people to quiet that and listen to
• 1:47:34
  an aspect of
• 1:47:35
  SPEAKER_03: themselves that's authentic and real.
• 1:47:39
  SPEAKER_03: I know that makes a lot of sense.
• 1:47:41
  SPEAKER_01: It makes a lot of sense.
• 1:47:42
  SPEAKER_01: The word that popped up was bringing people to a place of wholeness.
• 1:47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:47:49
  SPEAKER_01: I've never seen anyone hold a room
• 1:47:53
  SPEAKER_01: like you hold a room.
• 1:47:54
  I've never seen anyone hold people in states of distress with
• 1:47:57
  such groundedness and
• 1:47:59
  SPEAKER_01: compassion and love.
• 1:48:03
  SPEAKER_01: You must be a big part of those groups just by your presence.
• 1:48:06
  My experience of you is I want to be a better person just by
• 1:48:10
  every time I meet you.
• 1:48:11
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to be more and do more.
• 1:48:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that's without you actually saying anything.
• 1:48:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's just, I think you have a very...
• 1:48:20
  SPEAKER_01: You've something,
• 1:48:21
  a combination of the work that you've done yourself and
• 1:48:26
  obviously your vast
• 1:48:27
  SPEAKER_01: experience,
• 1:48:28
  SPEAKER_01: but what are your plans?
• 1:48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know that you're pulling back a little bit.
• 1:48:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to say a little bit what you're going to do next?
• 1:48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, why should I be talking to you in the first place?
• 1:48:37
  SPEAKER_01: I forgot to ask you that.
• 1:48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Who do you think you are and why would I even want to talk to you?
• 1:48:43
  SPEAKER_01: Answer both those for us.
• 1:48:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know why, but I don't think it, you know.
• 1:48:51
  I don't know,
• 1:48:52
  maybe you'll talk to me because I had the most amazing
• 1:48:56
  teachers.
• 1:48:58
  SPEAKER_03: And I think I was so fortunate.
• 1:49:00
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you talk about that part about holding space.
• 1:49:04
  SPEAKER_03: I learned from the best.
• 1:49:07
  Ronnie,
• 1:49:07
  there's a lot of things you've offered were a lot of things to
• 1:49:10
  what they were.
• 1:49:11
  SPEAKER_03: Deeply compassionate and fiercely compassionate.
• 1:49:17
  SPEAKER_03: These were always nice people.
• 1:49:19
  SPEAKER_03: They knew when to...
• 1:49:22
  SPEAKER_03: Bring the hammer down.
• 1:49:23
  SPEAKER_03: They knew all that.
• 1:49:26
  And I lived in households in my toys with people who otherwise
• 1:49:33
  might be in mental hospitals.
• 1:49:35
  SPEAKER_03: I was chased around the room in excellence.
• 1:49:38
  SPEAKER_03: There was no medication.
• 1:49:40
  SPEAKER_03: There were no padded rooms.
• 1:49:41
  SPEAKER_03: There was no safety.
• 1:49:44
  SPEAKER_03: The only safety I discovered early was to get into my authenticity.
• 1:49:53
  SPEAKER_03: because nothing would get called out faster than inauthenticity,
• 1:49:57
  SPEAKER_03: any arrogance,
• 1:50:00
  SPEAKER_03: any way I was trying for self-protection.
• 1:50:05
  SPEAKER_03: I had to get authentic, and I had to see shared humanity.
• 1:50:10
  SPEAKER_03: Just sometimes to survive physically, that was rare.
• 1:50:15
  SPEAKER_03: Mostly it was to survive psychologically, emotionally.
• 1:50:20
  SPEAKER_03: And my future plans, why you should want to sit down all that.
• 1:50:24
  SPEAKER_03: I spent time with Ronnie Lanning and you like him.
• 1:50:29
  SPEAKER_03: We have a lot in common.
• 1:50:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:50:33
  I have come back just this week I stepped down from being
• 1:50:37
  director of faculty and
• 1:50:39
  all that handed that off I'm teaching far less of the week long
• 1:50:46
  and I think it's
• 1:50:47
  the way they share and future plans are this is the first time
• 1:50:52
  I've said yes to go
• 1:50:54
  and do something with you because I have a little more time and
• 1:50:58
  freedom I also have
• 1:51:02
  SPEAKER_03: wonderful grandchildren, grandchildren, do a lot more than that.
• 1:51:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't have a long-term partner anymore.
• 1:51:11
  SPEAKER_03: Long-term now is, eh, what am I doing?
• 1:51:13
  SPEAKER_03: I think I'll do this.
• 1:51:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'll go to Ireland.
• 1:51:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to go to Munich.
• 1:51:19
  SPEAKER_03: Then I'm going to go with my grandkids.
• 1:51:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is great because I've got lots of plans for us.
• 1:51:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm drawing you in slowly to see whether you like it or not.
• 1:51:33
  SPEAKER_03: You're the first first.
• 1:51:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this I don't need to sound.
• 1:51:39
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of people ask me to do things.
• 1:51:42
  SPEAKER_03: And honestly, for the most part,
• 1:51:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's just kind of done it.
• 1:51:46
  SPEAKER_03: But there's something about,
• 1:51:49
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 1:51:49
  certainly the idea of reconciliation work and healing that kind
• 1:51:56
  of trauma that
• 1:51:57
  SPEAKER_03: absolutely politically.
• 1:51:58
  SPEAKER_03: And it takes me back to what took me to language first place.
• 1:52:04
  SPEAKER_03: Politics.
• 1:52:06
  SPEAKER_03: Politics of the family.
• 1:52:08
  SPEAKER_03: Politics of experience.
• 1:52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:52:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:52:12
  I did have an epiphany doing the work in Ireland that I
• 1:52:15
  realized this is really
• 1:52:17
  SPEAKER_01: peace and reconciliation.
• 1:52:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd gone into it more with a,
• 1:52:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:52:21
  SPEAKER_01: in the trauma focus and I realized,
• 1:52:22
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 1:52:23
  SPEAKER_01: this is peace and reconciliation in action.
• 1:52:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad.
• 1:52:27
  Yeah,
• 1:52:27
  I think it's going to be very different than it's going to be
• 1:52:31
  broad in that sense.
• 1:52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Just going back to one point you made,
• 1:52:36
  I think the other issue that I saw in the Western integration
• 1:52:42
  of Buddhism is they
• 1:52:43
  SPEAKER_01: took a lot of the wrathful forms out.
• 1:52:45
  So we don't talk about the wrathful energy,
• 1:52:48
  you know,
• 1:52:48
  like Kali in the Hindu tradition...
• 1:52:52
  SPEAKER_01: or the wrathful forms of deities,
• 1:52:54
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of,
• 1:52:57
  SPEAKER_01: not a lot of,
• 1:52:57
  SPEAKER_01: but some teachers thought the Westerners would be confused,
• 1:53:00
  SPEAKER_01: a bit like yabyam,
• 1:53:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:53:01
  SPEAKER_01: when you see a figure in union,
• 1:53:04
  they may think it's just purely sexual when it represents
• 1:53:07
  something totally else.
• 1:53:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's something lost in this idea of
• 1:53:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, fierce compassion.
• 1:53:13
  We don't actually talk a lot about idiot compassion,
• 1:53:17
  which I see all the time.
• 1:53:19
  SPEAKER_03: All the time.
• 1:53:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I thought of.
• 1:53:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:53:24
  SPEAKER_03: I do.
• 1:53:26
  SPEAKER_03: But fierce, you know.
• 1:53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Fierce.
• 1:53:30
  SPEAKER_03: I have a big Durga statue here.
• 1:53:34
  SPEAKER_03: She rides into town on a tiger and slates demons.
• 1:53:39
  SPEAKER_03: Demons that are in authenticity and envy, self-hatred.
• 1:53:46
  SPEAKER_01: My understanding of Lang,
• 1:53:48
  he actually got into Kali a little bit and then when he came
• 1:53:50
  back from India,
• 1:53:51
  SPEAKER_01: he was told,
• 1:53:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:53:52
  SPEAKER_01: you mustn't,
• 1:53:54
  SPEAKER_01: there was like an aversion or something.
• 1:53:55
  SPEAKER_03: He talked about it.
• 1:53:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:53:57
  SPEAKER_03: I learned a lot about it.
• 1:53:59
  calling from him and he another guy that was around was francis
• 1:54:04
  cuckley oh
• 1:54:06
  cuckley's son yeah so he um he brought in a lot of the tribal
• 1:54:13
  shamanic experiences
• 1:54:15
  and the importance of that kind of fierce wrathful uh ceremony
• 1:54:20
  and so forth so i
• 1:54:23
  SPEAKER_03: got it's part of the influence yeah
• 1:54:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm very conscious of how much time I've taken up.
• 1:54:29
  SPEAKER_01: What haven't I asked you that I should have asked you, do you think?
• 1:54:37
  SPEAKER_03: Why would I want to talk to you?
• 1:54:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great one.
• 1:54:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 1:54:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think the reason I am doing this is,
• 1:54:48
  SPEAKER_01: and the whole psychophobia brand,
• 1:54:50
  SPEAKER_01: liberating minds,
• 1:54:51
  SPEAKER_01: is because after 20 years,
• 1:54:54
  I've come to the conclusion that the very systems that are
• 1:54:56
  meant to liberate people
• 1:54:58
  SPEAKER_01: are actually making them dependent.
• 1:55:02
  SPEAKER_01: from the psychiatrist.
• 1:55:03
  SPEAKER_01: You can talk about suffering, Medicaid suffering, thereby suffering.
• 1:55:07
  I was picking up on people talking about,
• 1:55:10
  they were fearful of their own minds.
• 1:55:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then that made me think,
• 1:55:15
  what are the systems that are meant to be liberating people
• 1:55:18
  doing if people are
• 1:55:19
  SPEAKER_01: still afraid of their own experience?
• 1:55:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized that
• 1:55:23
  SPEAKER_01: When I used to start off a session,
• 1:55:26
  SPEAKER_01: I used to say to people that my job is to make myself redundant.
• 1:55:29
  SPEAKER_01: I actually don't want to be a therapist.
• 1:55:30
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to reduce pain.
• 1:55:34
  And then I realized through research,
• 1:55:36
  that's not what everybody else was doing.
• 1:55:38
  What other people were doing was making people feel comfortable
• 1:55:42
  and getting paid for it.
• 1:55:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that wasn't the conscious approach,
• 1:55:51
  but it certainly came out in research where people were making
• 1:55:54
  people comfortable.
• 1:55:55
  SPEAKER_01: And my job is not to make people comfortable,
• 1:55:58
  SPEAKER_01: but actually to help people face the pain that the symptoms is masking.
• 1:56:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of revolutionary.
• 1:56:05
  And I thought,
• 1:56:05
  my brother said,
• 1:56:07
  don't swing a sword until you have enough room.
• 1:56:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I've waited 20 years before I've come out swinging.
• 1:56:15
  So the reason I wanted to talk to you is because I feel I'm in
• 1:56:20
  the lineage of RD
• 1:56:21
  SPEAKER_01: Lang,
• 1:56:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:56:22
  SPEAKER_01: very much yourself and Michael Thompson.
• 1:56:24
  And I feel that,
• 1:56:25
  you know,
• 1:56:25
  I'm trying to carry on in many ways that tradition.
• 1:56:30
  One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was really under the
• 1:56:33
  umbrella of alternatives.
• 1:56:35
  SPEAKER_01: You did that very beautifully.
• 1:56:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily all about talking therapy or about medication.
• 1:56:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's movement,
• 1:56:41
  SPEAKER_01: there's breath works,
• 1:56:42
  there's alternative states of consciousness that can bring us
• 1:56:48
  into an encounter
• 1:56:50
  SPEAKER_01: with a less limited sense of self.
• 1:56:54
  SPEAKER_01: and that in itself can be liberating.
• 1:56:59
  So I'm very excited and honored that people like yourself are
• 1:57:04
  willing to take the
• 1:57:05
  SPEAKER_01: plunge and talk,
• 1:57:06
  SPEAKER_01: because I don't really know what I'm doing here at all,
• 1:57:09
  SPEAKER_01: as you've ever saw the technology.
• 1:57:10
  SPEAKER_01: But what I wanted to do was,
• 1:57:12
  SPEAKER_01: we have talked many times,
• 1:57:13
  SPEAKER_01: and I thought,
• 1:57:13
  SPEAKER_01: oh God,
• 1:57:14
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to record this,
• 1:57:15
  SPEAKER_01: because something comes up,
• 1:57:19
  SPEAKER_01: not what I thought would come up.
• 1:57:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:57:21
  SPEAKER_01: the things that we talked about today,
• 1:57:23
  SPEAKER_01: it wasn't,
• 1:57:23
  SPEAKER_01: that wasn't really,
• 1:57:24
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't set out to go there.
• 1:57:26
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know where it was going to go,
• 1:57:27
  SPEAKER_01: but I felt it was really,
• 1:57:28
  SPEAKER_01: really rich and I'm learning all the time.
• 1:57:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to have to integrate what we talked about.
• 1:57:34
  So if people watching can get a little bit of a flavor of that,
• 1:57:38
  I think that could be exciting.
• 1:57:40
  I did one on alcohol recently and alcohol-free and I let
• 1:57:43
  someone who was struggling
• 1:57:44
  with alcohol watch it and he just sent me this picture of an A4
• 1:57:48
  sheet where he had
• 1:57:49
  SPEAKER_01: all the bits,
• 1:57:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:57:51
  so it was trying to reach a wider audience than I could reach
• 1:57:55
  on a one-to-one or in
• 1:57:56
  SPEAKER_01: a group or at a conference.
• 1:57:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the motivation.
• 1:57:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's beautiful.
• 1:58:01
  SPEAKER_03: You said something that really made me smile.
• 1:58:06
  SPEAKER_03: The part about if you're doing your job,
• 1:58:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know, you'll be out of a job.
• 1:58:12
  SPEAKER_03: You're not there to make people comfortable.
• 1:58:16
  And I'll never forget one of the most influential things anyone
• 1:58:20
  said to me was Hugh
• 1:58:21
  SPEAKER_03: Crawford when he said to me,
• 1:58:24
  SPEAKER_03: look,
• 1:58:26
  SPEAKER_03: if you do this well as a therapist or a teacher,
• 1:58:31
  SPEAKER_03: two things will happen.
• 1:58:33
  SPEAKER_03: Your students or your therapists will leave you.
• 1:58:38
  SPEAKER_03: Don't leave you.
• 1:58:39
  SPEAKER_03: They will do much better in the world than you do.
• 1:58:43
  SPEAKER_03: And they will forget that they learned any of it from you.
• 1:58:46
  SPEAKER_02: I like that.
• 1:58:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's a sign.
• 1:58:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:58:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm all about that.
• 1:58:54
  Let's get people out in the world that have embodied their own
• 1:58:58
  what's doing.
• 1:58:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 1:59:01
  I think the change for me from what I got from that breathwork
• 1:59:05
  session was the
• 1:59:07
  SPEAKER_01: profound understanding that people have the potential within them to heal
• 1:59:13
  SPEAKER_01: themselves.
• 1:59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:59:15
  SPEAKER_01: And my job was to put them in touch with that.
• 1:59:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not the healer.
• 1:59:18
  SPEAKER_01: They're the healer.
• 1:59:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the mirrorer.
• 1:59:22
  SPEAKER_01: to help them,
• 1:59:23
  SPEAKER_01: perhaps the destroyer in part of the self-hatred,
• 1:59:29
  SPEAKER_01: but underneath the self-hatred is this well of potential to heal oneself.
• 1:59:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a bit of a shift.
• 1:59:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you used the word to me, it's like authenticity.
• 1:59:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's that, you know, what can AI not do that we can do?
• 1:59:45
  SPEAKER_01: I asked AI this, what's the difference?
• 1:59:47
  SPEAKER_01: Authenticity.
• 1:59:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's many things we share.
• 1:59:53
  SPEAKER_01: One of them is we're going to die.
• 1:59:55
  SPEAKER_01: This body is going to do whatever you think happens afterwards.
• 1:59:58
  SPEAKER_01: That should be enough in common for us to go,
• 2:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: whoa,
• 2:00:01
  we're going to just pause on that and connect on the depth of
• 2:00:07
  what that means.
• 2:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for coming on.
• 2:00:13
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Michael.
• 2:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: We will.
• 2:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I could just keep going.
• 2:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just conscious.
• 2:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: I could just keep going.
• 2:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't anywhere near the end.
• 2:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think that might be a two-parter if you're up for it.
• 2:00:26
  But thank you so much for your generosity of spirit and for
• 2:00:30
  giving it a bit of a bash.
• 2:00:33
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for yours.
• 2:00:35
  SPEAKER_03: I just love talking to you and being with you.
• 2:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful.
• 2:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Michael.
• 2:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I will see you, well, we'll chat.
• 2:00:42
  We need to catch up on what we're doing in April,
• 2:00:45
  but that's going to be exciting.
• 2:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be great.
• 2:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of very excited people in Ireland about you coming.
• 2:00:55
  Yeah,
• 2:00:56
  and you know Coramila is a sort of center of peace and
• 2:00:59
  reconciliation.
• 2:01:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I get that newsletters now.
• 2:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:01:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's wonderful.
• 2:01:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the people are really... I'm so looking forward to it.
• 2:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're the real deal up there.
• 2:01:10
  SPEAKER_03: I so admire the work you do in the world.
• 2:01:13
  SPEAKER_03: You make me want to be a better person.
• 2:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: So at least we share that.
• 2:01:19
  SPEAKER_03: Wonderful.
• 2:01:19
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 2:01:20
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 2:01:21
  SPEAKER_03: Have a wonderful rest of your day.
• 2:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you.
• 2:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.
• 2:01:25
  SPEAKER_03: Bye for now.