Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / Album 7 Track 17 - Elevating Your Brand Through Music w/Jesse Kirshbaum

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Album 7 Track 17 - Elevating Your Brand Through Music w/Jesse Kirshbaum · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. I'm giddy. I'm giddy, Brand Nerds. You all know that. We name each of our seasons an album. We're in album seven now, and each of our podcasts, we call them tracks. That's intentional Brand Nerds. Y'all know that. It's because the name of our podcast is Brands. Beats and Bytes B-Y-T-E-S. The Beats is for the music and lt. You know that I would not be sitting here before you today. Without the music brother, listen it. I do not. No, go. Go ahead, lt. Go ahead. LT: It's your backdrop. Like that's how you got to college even. Yes. With your yes. You know, drums and percussion scholarship. So yes. DC: I'm not here. I'm not in the business. I'm not doing marketing. Who knows what I would be doing in the streets of Detroit without music? I love music Brand Nerds. It is in everything that I do, in some form or fashion, and even in the music that you don't hear, one of my favorite quotes is from Miles Davis. For you Brand Nerds who don't know Miles Davis, you need to go check this brother out. Rest in power. Listen to kind of blue, an iconic seminal record album record. He has a quote, this is not exactly it, but it's close. And he said, LT. Music is the space of silence between the notes, not the actual notes. And I am elated today Brand Nerds because in the building we have someone who understands marketing, they understand the the, the business and branding of it all. I'm gonna skip over beats for a moment. They understand the tech and the bytes, but this brother has lived his life on the beats LT, LT: Yes, DC: on the beats and Brand Nerds, i'll just say this to you. In this world of ai, high technology, social media, it is my belief that by and large, some of us in humanity are losing our souls to tech. The way to ensure, one of the way to ensure that we don't lose our souls LT is through Music, brother. 'cause music is pure LT, please let the Brand Nerds know who we have in the building today, who's going to bless us on the brands, the beats and the bytes. LT: Oh dear. What a great setup we have. Jesse Kirshbaum in the house today. Welcome, Jesse. Jesse Kirshbaum: Thank you so much for having me. DC What an amazing intro LT, long time coming. Long time in the making. It's an honor and a privilege to be here with you. Two fine gentlemen. LT: Well, that's like the A part, right? Which is a great setup, Jesse. Now we walk, have to walk the Brand Nerds through your incredible background. So Brand Nerds, we are so excited to have Jesse on the podcast, as you can tell already. The funny confluence of life is Jesse has an influential, very cool newsletter, Beats and Bytes, Sound familiar? Maybe later Jesse can tell us a little bit more about the name and how he found out about us, but with that as a precursor, DC: Well, hold on, hold on. Larry, before we move any further, uh, can you just let our attorneys know to send to cease and desist right away? Okay. Right, right away. Jesse Kirshbaum: Yeah, we've already lost like the opportunity to launch a podcast and a book under the name Beats, Bytes and Brands. I have a web series that I did with Adweek, beats, bytes, and Brands, and what prevented us from going to the next level was there's this already prominent, super successful, super relevant, amazing, creative podcast that already exists each week in rotation on Spotify, on Apple Music, and preventing, this, uh, brand to grow from beats and bytes, to beats, bytes, and brands. So we're living good as a beat and byte, but you guys got it all with the name. DC: Thank you. Thank you, Jesse. All right, LT. Yeah. Run down my man's credentials. LT: That's a great precursor. It really is. Yeah. And, and so, uh, let's go keep, let's keep going. So, Jesse attends University of Wisconsin where he earns his BA in International Business and marketing his first job. It's a really special opportunity where he is actually Assistant to the President for Marvel Entertainment. Now, please note this is prior to Disney purchasing Marvel in 2009 that said, what a great place to start. From there, Jesse goes to his first real job post-graduation, and it is office manager for Logic Records, which is part of BMG Group. And yes, this does include lots of coffee runs. From there, Jesse moves to American Talent Agency where he spends two and a half years, eventually becoming VP of Artist Relations. Jesse's next move is to join Gizmondo Studios, a computer gaming company as their Director of Entertainment Marketing. Okay, brand nerds. Please notice still in his twenties, Jesse has gained great experience in music, entertainment, and gaming. With this great foundation, in 2007, Jesse starts the Nue Agency, and Jesse and his team say Nue is a creative music agency for a new era. Nue is an award-winning creative music culture and entertainment marketing agency positioned at the center of brands, technology and entertainment. Named by Inc. Magazine is the third fastest growing entertainment company in the world with revenues of more than $40 million. Prominent clients include Diageo, GE, Nestle, Amazon to name a few. Jesse and his agency's superpower is the ability to find trends early and create strategic revenue generating partnerships. Their work helps brands make more deep, meaningful relationships with their consumer through leveraging the power of music. While still CEO of Nue today, and while new has been super successful, Jesse has also dipped his toes into some other areas, namely spending a year post pandemic as CMO of Dream Stage Inc. Dream Stage was an integrated streaming ticketing, merchandising fan data platform for live music performances. Live streaming over 120 successful events including artists such as Polo G, Yo-Yo, ma Trane, Josh Groben to name a few. These are acquired Dream Stage. Emerge the company with live streaming agency Drift in September, 2022. Also since 2021, Jesse is a venture partner at HL Ventures, where they build an ecosystem supporting mission-driven founders as their path to creating and growing valuable companies. Since its founding in 2009, HL Ventures has forged a new way to build companies at the nexus of growth, impact, and diversity, if that isn't enough. Since 2023, Jesse's an adjunct professor at Kogod School of Business at American University, where he teaches the streaming revolution, covering the history of streaming the current landscape and where things are going next, and obviously, Brand Nerds. We mentioned that already, that Jesse is or has an excellent online newsletter called Beats and Bytes. You can tell from where the, what he's done and what he's doing. He's also on the brand side. He has the brand side covered too. Really looking forward to this one. Welcome to Brands, beats and Bytes, Jesse Kirshbaum. Jesse Kirshbaum: What a thorough and fantastic intro. Uh, obviously still a lot more to cover in between the notes. That's is where the music lives. Mm-hmm. But I will say that that really sets the stage for who I am and how I got here. DC: Excellent. Larry always does this immaculate job of going through the background of our guest, Jesse. I enjoy watching our guests hear about themselves told through someone else. And I, uh, I liken it. This is gonna sound a bit morbid, is not waiting until your obit to get your obit, that you get your flowers while you are still vibrant. These are your flowers, brother, and you planted and watered them all. So congratulations on a wonderful career. With that, I will go into the Get Comfy section. Jesse Kirshbaum: Great. DC: As I said, as I said, oh, bless you, Larry. As I said, uh, at the beginning, Jesse, uh, I'm, I'm a music dude. I'm, I'm a music dude, so I don't often get a chance to do this podcast with my music brethren and sistern. That's why I mentioned the word giddy. So let me get to this Get comfy thing. When I listened to Lt mention a few of the artists that you worked with, there was a range that's unique to many. When you are a music person, you're a music person. It doesn't matter what genre of music, you appreciate great artistry and great music, but when you go Polo G, Yo-Yo Ma, Train. I think Josh Groin was the other one you mentioned. Larry and Jesse. I start thinking Polo G, rap Star Yo-yo ma Bach cello suite number one. Prelude Train, Drops of Jupiter, Josh Groin, I think it's called you, you bring me up. No, you raised me up. You raised me up. The, these are, these are artists and songs y'all that are just like outstanding. And it reminds me a little Jesse of another music dude that I know you know of and maybe has, uh, worked with is Rick Rubin. He has range, he starts with the hips and the hops. He does run DMC, the Beastie Boys and LL Cool J. He then does, uh, the, the Red Hot Chili Peppers production Rage Against the Machine. And then he does Adele, like this kinda range. So Jesse, I'm now as my mom rest in power. Gloria Cobbin would say to me when I would drone on and on, Jesse, my, my, my, um, uh, mother, uh, Gloria Cobbin would say, baby, are, are you arriving at a point? So, Jesse, yeah. Yes. I'm arriving at a point. I'm arriving at a point here. Here's my point, Jesse. Given how deep you are into music and the breadth and depth of where you've been around music and how you use it, where did that come from from you? Where does that spring from? How do you have such significant range in music, brother? Jesse Kirshbaum: It's versatility from growing up in New York and being in the melting pot as that is to just falling in love with music at a pretty early age and realizing that this could be a business that I end up working on and it matches my personality. You follow creativity, you follow curiosity, and all of a sudden it's no longer a business of genre like it was DC: Yeah, Jesse Kirshbaum: back then. You know, in the early days of my careers you were a hip hop agent. DC: Yeah. Jesse Kirshbaum: Or, you know, you did country. But DC: Yeah Jesse Kirshbaum: when we're talking about the 2020s and this era of genre agnostic and vibe and feeling really being what is driving the playlist culture of kind of how we listen, it's a totally different sport. You can put these acts on a playlist. You could put these songs on a playlist. You could take all of these different sounds and make it make sense. DC: Hmm. Jesse Kirshbaum: And, and so I, I think it's really about just, you know, to quote great musicians. there's two types of music in this world. There's good music and there's bad music, and I feel like I gotta write that one down. That's good. I like the good music, so that's good. That's kind of how I've chosen, but you know, when you're doing things like what you mentioned, that kind of depth of, of, of artistry, that was for. Dreamstage, that was for a live streaming business that I stepped in as a CMO in the middle of the pandemic. Mm-hmm. And what we wanted to do was tell stories and help artists connect to consumers and create revenue generating opportunities and sell tickets to online shows. So we had to test the market. It wasn't, you know, one versus the other. We didn't know what was gonna work. They all have fan bases. So we're out there scouring for artists that want to take a chance and do a live stream show and sell tickets on our platform and bring brands to the table and figure out the red thread of how we connect all of those dots. So that is just like one small component of, uh, you know, that's an era. That's a chapter. Yeah. That was a project. But it does resonate when we're talking about. The music that I'm working with today, the artists that I'm working with today, the campaigns that we're doing, um, you know, even the day-to-day life of running an agency, you've got nine plates spinning at all times. How do you go from talking about, you know, music, AI to CPG, to coffee brands, to um, you know, lip liquid to lips and, and soft drinks? Yeah. It requires, as a modern day marketer that really understands culture range. So I think it hit, I think you hit the note on the head. Um, and it's just the way that I approach everything is like there's not one box to fit into, uh, as somebody that's really passionate about different facets of culture and, and knows that music is the universal language that kind of connects us all. DC: All, no matter the language, no matter the, the, the place. Hmm. LT: And, and Jesse, from what you're, the way you described that too, you know, there's brands that have an idea of where they're going and they may, may come to you. I would imagine for your expertise and you being who you are, understanding music as you do, as the cultural force that it is, you might, I'm sure steer people into directions that they didn't know was maybe best for them. Given your outlook, uh, uh, am I, am I correct in that? Jesse Kirshbaum: Yeah, sometimes the strategy sessions lead to doors that they didn't know that they absolutely understood once we explained it to 'em in a way that like, this is the, the path forward to, to creating relevance or to selling product or to, you know, making a deeper connection to my consumer. But usually there's a level of, Hey, this is the direction I want to go. This is how I wanna get there. These are the parameters that we've got. These are the brand guidelines. Like, where do I do this? How do I work with this artist? How do I create this version of a song? Um, so I think, you know, you gotta give brand marketers, especially at a high level, uh, a lot of their kudos because they know their brand, they know where they're going. Mm-hmm. LT: They better. Jesse Kirshbaum: They wanna be, Exactly. LT: They better. DC and I have been in that seats and you better know your brand and DC obviously. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm sure you know this with Sprite was really, that was the first brand to utilize hip hop as the foundation for the whole brand. Not just for one part of the culture, but for everything. And because it, it all emanated from, uh, a consumer, um, all, all emanated from the consumer of where, uh, DC understood that urban youth was the epicenter to helping grow that brand and it took off from there. So we love having these conversations. Jesse Kirshbaum: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It like music is a big component and a driver and a connectivity, but it is really like, music isn't gonna only be the the way to do this, right? Like music is, is what I believe a part or should be a part of every brand strategy. The same way that they'd be thinking about web or social or different components, but it's not the only brand strategy. There is an overarching brand strategy that they've gotta be pulling from that, that they tap into experts like us to help them to really navigate the complicated, confusing, dynamic world of this industry. DC: So Brand Nerds, when Larry mentioned Jesse's company Nue I wanna spell it for you 'cause you may think it's a typical spelling. It is not. It is NUE. NUE. So that's number one. Number two, Brand Nerds pay very close attention to what Jesse just said. He talked about music as a strategy. He said just before that when he talks, when he and his team talk to clients, they have a strategy session. Brand Nerds, if I had a dollar for every time I've seen what I'm about to say to you, I would have far more than I than I own right now. Oh, uh, this is coming from a client. Oh, yeah, yeah. Uh, I want such and such artists because I think they're cool or I, I like to, to license such and such song because I think it's popular. That's not a strategy. LT: Nope. DC: That is not a strategy. It's really hard. Once you get clear about your brand and you talk to someone like Jesse and the team at Nue they can guide you strategically to the right artist, to the right music, to the role that music can play in your brand. There's a lot of strategery involved with music. It's not just listening to something that's like cool. So I want you to know, Jesse, I do see you, brother. I, I see you. I see you. Jesse Kirshbaum: Look, sometimes the hunch might be right to DC: Yep. Jesse Kirshbaum: Get an artist or to get a song. Yeah. But the other component is there's so many ways to level up if you understand the strategy and what artist is thinking about and coming at this, or how the music could connect in different ways. So just having a hunch of, I wanna work with this artist, doesn't give you the robust opportunity to really no, maximize that partnership if it is the right artist or song or concept to go with. There's still so many great tangential in this industry that you want to be able to tap into as you are launching a successful campaign. Like everybody knows it takes a village. LT: I know we have to go to the next section. I just wanna say one thing before we move on. Um, that's why I asked the question, right? My, my first follow up was question was, I, I, I know that D, we've seen them, that there's brand folks who come and they already have a preconceived notion of what you just said. Oh, there's a really hot new artist, or a really cool song and they wanna glom onto that. Yeah. And it's right to the tactics, right, to, you know, the sugar high, so to speak. And it doesn't go to the foundation of the, what the brand positioning is about and the five senses, right? One of the senses is listen is hearing. Mm-hmm. And Jesse said it, man, you better have a, a music strategy. You're there, there should be, um, there should be music that is in such an integral part of who your brand is, right? It's the soundtrack of what your brand is. There should be a soundtrack for what your brand is brand, or is that what that's what we're saying. Go ahead, D. DC: Thanks, Larry. Next section. Jesse. That was good, brother. That was good. We call it five questions. I hit you with one. We go back and forth, Larry and I, until we reach the number five. I am in the batter's box like the big dumper in Seattle, hitting many home runs right now. Okay, Jesse, take yourself back. In your mind, go back to when you had a branding experience. Your first one, Jesse. It was a branding experience that you had. Either you were engaged with this brand, you bought this brand, you spent time with this brand, you and your your peoples, you all got down with this brand. You loved this brand, Jesse, like it was the first love for you. What was this brand or brand experience? Jesse Kirshbaum: Well, when I was a kid, the brand that got me, early, early on, and you can't say that Budweiser isn't marketing to kids when they have Spuds Mackenzie, right? Yes. I'm five years old. I'm in Brooklyn. I get a dog. I'm like, my parents say, we're, we're moving to the suburbs and you're gonna get a dog. And, and what do I call that dog Spuds. Why do I call that poodle? That black poodle spuds. Because of the marketing and falling in love with the brand Budweiser and what, how they were positioning that brand on football games or on baseball games or whatever. I was watching at that young impressionable age. So I understood that. Like I've always been susceptible to brands and brand marketing and I'm just a fan of it. Like I'm, you know, loving these different things. If it's Dubai chocolate or lab boo boos this summer, like I just labu boos, I gravitate towards these type of marketing exercises because, um, and then they impact me like viscerally and culturally and like human wise have had an impact on me, like seeing that I named my, you know, childhood pet after a Budweiser commercial. So that would be like the early memories of me seeing a brand, of being like, I get it. I love it. I don't even understand what beer is, but I understand marketing and, and how it can affect people. Um, are we talking more about like a project or would you want to hear about like, when I pivoted my business? DC: Wherever you want to go. That was fine by the way. That answer you gave, that's fine. If you want to elaborate on something else, feel free to do so, but that was dope. LT: Yeah. Jesse Kirshbaum: Awesome. I mean, I think that's the early days of me and branding. Right. Cool. And again, I can go into projects from changing my career from representing artists to representing brands and how we launched with brands and kind of built out diverse, robust programs. Um, I do love when a brand thinks long term. Mm-hmm. I do love when a brand is not just looking for immediate ROI, but also has a vision for building brand through culture and understanding that like, doing this the right way is not gonna be as effective in terms of tracking as like a Facebook ad would be. DC: Mm-hmm. Jesse Kirshbaum: When you embed yourself in culture and you become relevant and you tap into the way that you're helping artists or helping, um, consumers see, um, content in a new and fresh way, like you ultimately over time will have a much bigger opportunity to shift the dynamics of what your brand stands for. So I love it when a brand thinks beyond, um, you know, a scope and understands we manage to the scope, but is thinking about how to build something that's actually gonna impact and embed themselves bigger picture. And, and so I've done that with a couple brands and, um, you know, understanding from the Sprite perspective DC like that's the business, right? That's the real, um, business of marketing is when you're thinking about this beyond just like a stunt. Yes. But, you know, stunts are us, and if you need one, we can still figure that out too. DC: All right, Larry. LT: Yeah. No, I, I, as I'm going to that question, Jesse, I love that you told that story of, of, of when you were f because clearly that's been an, a integral part of the way you've thought. Um, so next question. I think it's a good segue. Who has had or is having the most influence on your career? Jesse Kirshbaum: Yeah. I've had so many different muses and inspirations, and I've had so many different chapters of who I am kind of as a business person in this space. Like, I came up as an agent and for the first, you know, couple years. And then when I even first started my company for seven years, I ran it as an agency with a certain particular focus. And then I shifted my business model to this kind of creative force. So, and, and now it's a, you know, culture marketing agency that's just done differently, not your grandpa's agency. Um, a lot more entrepreneurial, a lot more tapped in. And so I, I think the person that's been with me through thick and through thin. Is my business partner and my brother. And so I'd like to say that there's lots of inspirations and muses and, you know, books. LT: What's your brother's name? Jesse Kirshbaum: But my brother's name's Alex, Alex Kirshbaum He goes by K-bomb. Um, and he had, I have been dreaming about working together when we were young and I think it makes our parents very happy to see us, um, you know, looking out for each other in, in, in a complicated world. And he's been with me doing this, I've been doing Nue Agency for 17 years and he's been with it for probably, um, 14 of them. Wow. So he's, uh, he's the one that day in, day out, you know, good and bad. I'm in the trenches with. Um, and it's so nice to be able to work with somebody that really understands your sensibilities and comes from, you know, in a lot of ways the same cloth as you, but also has different skills and different, you know, tolerances for the parts of this business and, and different passion points. So in a lot of ways I could feel very comfortable saying, Hey, I'm not gonna be at this Alex will and feel like I'll get the download from him. It might take a couple weeks, it might have to end up being at the Thanksgiving dinner table, but eventually I'll get the scoop. And the other thing is to know that um, there's somebody there that, uh, can not only do what you do, but also bring things to the table that you can't, or, or has passion points that I don't. And so I think probably the biggest influences is the guy that you work with every single day. Mm-hmm. That happens to be the guy you've known his entire life. And, um, you know, can, can really, like, in a lot of ways we have our own language code switch from, you know, talking with my parents and or his kids on vacation, you know, this summer or, um, you know, being in the boardroom and, and, and trying to, you know, walk through the talking points or pitch points of, uh, of, you know, a game changing presentation. LT: That's a blessing. Is he younger or older by the way? Jesse Kirshbaum: He is younger. LT: Okay. Alright. Jesse Kirshbaum: So yeah, I mean that also kind of works well and it's a lot in our dynamics and our personality. We just got very different but very complimentary, um, you know, brotherly love, so he's fully committed to this business. He loves it. I think the two of us, um, have found something that we, uh, you know, matches our personalities, matches, matches our passion points. Um, and it's just again, there's nothing more fun. Than working in the music business and working with creatives and working with musicians and all day long talking about music and listening to music and going to music shows and figuring out influential ways to use music to, you know, tell stories. Um, so I, I think both of us share that dynamic, um, love for this space. And it's also, you know, it's, it's interesting to have a, a business together. So, um, you know, I, I think that he's, he's the, he's the one that probably has the biggest influence on, um, you know, my career span from here. LT: That's super cool. That's a blessing and, and a awesome in every way. Uh, D, you ready to go to the next question? DC: I am. Brother Jesse, you don't do what you do in the music business, which is highly competitive. Highly, highly competitive. You don't get there. Uh, to do what you do and have done for years without being really good and having a lot of Ws, a lot of w, a lot of, a lot of wins. A lot of wins. This next question has nothing to do with any of your wins and only to do with your biggest l the biggest f up that you, it was your thinking. You made the mistake, Jesse, not my little brother said, do this, and I went along. No, no, you made the mistake, Jesse. It was a big F up. And more importantly, what you learn from it. Jesse Kirshbaum: Yeah, that's, uh, you're really touching on a nerve over here, but I guess we'll relive some of these, uh, these Ls because if you're not learning and you're not lo, if you're not losing, you're not learning. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I. When I rebranded my company as an agent, I was, you know, finding and developing talent. When I was 23, I signed a group called Clips at a company that I worked at, um, Pusha T and Malice. So they were produced by an artist named Oh. DC: Oh wow. Okay. Jesse Kirshbaum: It went at number two on the pop charts. It was. DC: Oh yes. Jesse Kirshbaum: A different era of my, uh, career. Yes. And so I built a relationship with DC: Shout, Virginia Beach, Jesse Kirshbaum: the Star Trek label and DC: Yes. Jesse Kirshbaum: Um, and, and you know, was there very, very early on with Pharrell and Clips and, you know, we toured the world together. Mm-hmm. And, uh, as I was building this next iteration of my company, uh, and we were representing brands, one of my clients was Mondelez's, which was a snack company. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Split off Kraft Uh, we were doing Sour Patch Kids Program. It was a big kind of influential music program. And, um, and then, uh, the Oreo team, uh, reached out to me, you know, once you're in the building, you hear from another executive. And, uh, Oreo, one of the executives was at a conference and ran into Pharrell. Pharrell, um, had mentioned that he really liked Oreos and wanted to turn all of the manhole in, uh, New York into instead of the steel, you know, subway portals. He wanted them all to look like Oreos, and he'd been thinking about that. LT: Jesse, I just want quick interruption for the Brand Nerds. DC and I have seen this firsthand and we've done this firsthand. When brand people have people like Pharrell coming up to them, telling them how much they love their product brand, people get giddy about that, especially when it's, when it feels genuine like that. So, go ahead, Jesse. Keep going. Jesse Kirshbaum: So this is like early iterations of Pharrell doing brand partnerships. Mm-hmm. He hadn't, you know, he had his company around him, but he wasn't the, you know, creative director for Louis Vuitton. He's a lot more well versed in this and probably a lot more willing to do things and not thinks, but he. Wanted to work with Oreo. Oreo calls me up and says, Pharrell wants to work with us. How do we get in touch with him and like, can we see, uh, what he wants to do? He would be a perfect partner for us. Mm-hmm. And so I got Pharrell on the phone, I got his team on the phone, and, um, you know, explain the story and they say, oh yeah, Pharrell definitely, uh, likes Oreos. He, he thinks this is a great idea. Um, and so, uh, but before he'd engage in anything, he'd like to see where the Oreos are made. And so we had to take him to, you know, I called Oreo and said that, and they were like, well, you know, we've got a bunch of different lines of cookies. Mm-hmm. And we're, you know, we're a house of brands. Like, it's just not that glamorous. Like I'm a little confused on what he wants to see or where he thinks he's gonna see. And they were like trying to skirt away from that idea, but it didn't matter. He wanted to do that if we wanted to have a conversation and they wanted to see where the conversation went. So we set up our first kind of formal meeting at the factory where they make Oreos. And LT: this is incredible. DC: This is, this is awesome. LT: De can you see Pharrell with the Oh yes. Brand. When you go into a factory CPG factory, you gotta put on all kinds of equipment and, and, and hats and you know, nets and whatnot. So I'm just picturing Pharrell like that. Go, go ahead. Jesse Kirshbaum: I've got that picture. Oh, and his nine woman team, including his wife that rolled up in a Mercedes like turtle top van and all of them pop in and we tore the, LT: Where is this by the way? Is it in the middle of new, like in Jesse Kirshbaum: middle of New Jersey LT: Exactly. That's what I was just gonna say. Rural New Jersey somewhere. Jesse Kirshbaum: Right. And we have Farmington, I think it's called, and we tore the Pharrell factory. You know, we do the factory tour and again he is got the fishnet hat and the, you know, lab coat and we're eating Oreos off the conveyor belt. And you know, everybody in the factory is just like elated. They've never seen something like this. Like, holy cow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like the, you know, Mr. You know, hits maker is for some reason walking around our factory, like with the, you know, his team. And so if Pharrell's feeling it out, and he's kind of enjoying the fact that like, he's getting to see how it's made, we end up into the, you know, conference room right at the end. Mm-hmm. And Pharrell is like, okay, like, let's get into this. What are we doing? Like, what is the idea? And Pharrell is like, I definitely don't wanna be in the commercial. I just don't feel like holding the cookie is who I am and what I want to do. Mm-hmm. So we were like, well, okay, you know, we kind of had an idea that we were gonna do the Pharrell cookie, whatever that meant, but like, what could the idea be? And he was like. Everybody here is so happy. It's like this creative haven. I wanna design the uniforms for everybody that works in the factory. And you know, I'm trying to make this thing happen. Like I'm looking at this as like, well, you know, we could design uniforms if that's what you wanna do. And Oreo executives don't wanna piss anybody off. Right. Like they, they're not gonna be like telling Pharrell no. Right. So we leave the conversation, Pharrell gets in his van, and the Oreo folks turn to me and they're like, there's no way we're letting him design uniforms. 20 brands in here. He is gonna do Triscuits and Chewy's and Chips Ahoy. Like this doesn't make any sense. We, this is not like they were happy because Pharrell was here. They weren't happy because like, this is the happiest place in the world. LT: Exactly. Jesse Kirshbaum: So it didn't. Connect. So then it was like, so, but we wanna do something and we need to move on it now. Right? Like, welcome to the gate. The strains are there. You gotta have the idea. We gotta, we gotta, like, we're either doing this or not. We're committing our budgets for the next year and like morale has the shot at it, what are we doing? So then. The period of trying to figure out what the idea is. DC: Mm-hmm. Jesse Kirshbaum: Really started to set it. And I was new to the kind of creative agency world. I was representing artists. I knew how to get them right to, you know, see the big picture, but I didn't know how to necessarily build robust campaigns around ideas and package my ideas or package their ideas as well as I do, you know, 10 years later, right? Mm-hmm. And so what happens, we try to figure out the idea, Pharrell's willing to meet with you, you know, one week at the Beverly Hills Hotel at 9:00 AM And so like we have this fancy creative director from, you know, the brand team flying in and presenting, you know, the idea of Pharrell and the Oreo of camouflage for, and I kind of stayed outta the creative process and I just let like. The belief that we were gonna land something, even though Pharrell was throwing things out there that were not realistic and also just not what the brand wanted to do. And the brand was bringing things to Pharrell that he just immediately thought was corny and whack. Yeah. Yeah. And I stayed out of that process and ultimately we got like, you know, a couple really good face-to-face encounters and got so close to doing something and the money was on the table and the impact was there and the interest was there. But we didn't get the deal done. We couldn't come up with the idea. Mm-hmm. And from then on I just was like, damn, that was the one that got away. That was such a big deal that, you know, everybody kind of felt like you brought us together, we all wanted to work together. What are we doing? Like figure that out. And I just didn't have that kind of understanding that that was kind of. Part of what I needed to do. LT: Right. Jesse Kirshbaum: And so that deal never happened and Pharrell and Orio never worked together. And I lost that deal and kind of like ultimately like got everybody feeling like that was exciting, but you know, you wasted time because we couldn't get it done and you didn't come up with the idea. Mm-hmm. And, but it hurts still to this day. I could have been LT: Sure. Jesse Kirshbaum: You know, I think like it would've been a Hall of Fame type play. Sure. And probably very influential for Pharrell's life and his career and maybe, maybe not. Definitely for Oreos brand identity. You know, they've gone on to do fine. They got Post Malone, it was a lot easier to get him to hold the cookie, but ultimately I was left feeling like I'm never letting that happen again. I am always going to have the idea. I am not just bringing the start of the table. Like, we'll let everybody riff. But I am going to do whatever it takes to come up with the idea to wrap the, the partnership with strategy and, and opportunities and creative. And so the lesson was, um, you know, it sometimes it just doesn't happen naturally to just put everybody in a room and see it land. And so now I come to things with just 2, 3, 5 steps ahead when we're in these conversations because, uh, you can't just have faith that, you know, money and, uh, the hope and will to work together is gonna be enough in this world when everybody's speaking two different languages. So, um, you know, the deal, losing the deal hurts, but taking the lesson that from now on we're packaging everything moving and, and at least living, giving the flexibility and the structure to, um, you know, find something that's gonna land. Uh, was the, was the, was the real lesson. LT: That's a great story. DC: Excellent, excellent. LT: I know you have thoughts. DC: My thought is ideas above everything, and this is what Jesse learned. Appetite to want to do a deal is good. It's necessary on both sides, but it's insufficient today, even more so than back then. Jesse, I think you'll agree with me. The artist largely now dictates the type of deal they're going to do and how they're going to show up. Back in the day, brands could put a bag of money on the table and say, we want you to do this. And artists looking at the bag, salivating might do it. Not, not anymore. That you gotta have the idea. And secondly, the idea, if it's a creative idea, and typically it is, if I'm betting on either the creative director of agency, fill in the blank. Or another creative, uh, person along with Pharrell. I'm betting on Pharrell to have the better idea. That's what I take away from it, and I have, uh, I have tried to honor the idea of the artist for my entire career when working with artists. That's my takeaway. LT: Yeah. I, I have a couple reactions before we go to the next question. One is, Jesse, you played matchmaker and you, what happened was, and, and this is a, a count, right? Like you p played matchmaker, and then you, and, and you. Brought everybody together and you thought, okay, my job is done. When in reality you had to continue to make sure that everybody was cool and to keep them together. And again, we all agree. I I, it emanates from the idea, but I would also suggest it also emanates from the strategy, understanding the strategy of Oreo, and then, then you having the ability to then come up with ideas that Pharrell, to DC's point that would really not be corny. That would be a true manifestation of who he is and optimize where he's going in his career. And that's where, that was your job to bring those folks together. You know, you didn't do that. You learned an a, an incredible lesson that you're clearly not gonna make that mistake again. So, um, while it still hurts at the end of the day, it was one of those things that you had to learn and, you know, you're, you're gonna be better for it. Um, so that's you's my take. Um, I'm gonna hit the next question now. So next question, Jesse. Uh, you know, man, this is excellent for you, uh, regarding technology and marketing. Uh, can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech, or tell us areas that you think they should be leery or simply avoid? Jesse Kirshbaum: I've really believed in, kind of built my company on the thesis that technology is the savior of the music business. I started my career, like when I was in college, Napster was this kind of like new era and DC: Sean Fanning, Jesse Kirshbaum: it was so freaking cool as a music lover to have thousands of songs in your, um, you know, CD player or on your computer. And so as a music fan, I knew something was great here. And then as I got into college, I watched this business that was making, you know, all of this profit on CDs fall apart. And it was a pretty quick, um, transition where music was at the forefront of the digital revolution and just kind of decimated as an industry, as in what it was first. For about five, six years, it was kind of flailing and piracy was rampant and Limewire was the next iteration. And both ultimately the music business, um, wasn't what it was. And there was a lot of anger towards the tech founders and there was a lot of anger towards, um, you know, technology and, and, and kind of stepping away from it. So I did a different approach and that's why I called the company new. 'cause I wanted to do things in a new way. I focused on two markets. I focused on the college market and finding and developing and breaking artists in the college scene. And I focused on the tech world and befriending the tech. Founders and companies and like honoring, you know, them with an award show that I'd done called Flash Forward, or doing, you know, weekly conversations called, uh, sound Control, where we would have these live panels and we'd bring artists and tech executives together to talk about, um, you know, kind of important things happening in the space and showcasing and really honoring and amplifying the tech business. And got to work with companies like Spotify. When they were launching in the US I was doing their college marketing, and so I really, oh. Found and learned to befriend the tech industry. And that's kind of stayed with me through different iterations if it was finding and breaking artists with social media to, um, then moving into kind of investing and partnering with founders and tech companies and helping them get artists partnerships or artists, investors and selling in the space. So I just continued to see this, like I've seen every iteration of this kind of digital revolution from Napster to where we are now. Right. We are in such an exciting place right now when it comes to AI. It is the next evolution of the internet. Like people are trying to claim crypto as Web3. I get it. They grabbed that name first and the moniker, but actually the next iteration from the original internet to the kind of mobile and app and um, social world, that was kind of like the 2010s to where we're at now is this Web3 Boom, which is AI. AI is revolutionizing all facets of the business, and there's so much opportunity, and again, music is at the forefront of where things are going. It could be, um, synth, it could be music creation, it could be music ideation, it could be lyrics, it could be, you know, some of these new platforms, some of the platforms you haven't heard about yet. I think we're in a golden era where this is gonna be a huge boom of income for artists and rights holders, and I think it's gonna be a huge growth in industry when it comes to amateur artists and being able to be able to create, and I think it's gonna be a, a premium for the real big artists. So to me, I feel like I'm having so much fun in this kind of AI space and being in the music side of it. I can think that like, we are seeing some awesome examples of how music is going to voice and audio and audio and video and visual is, is changing the entire landscape of culture and distribution and creating context. So I do think that this needs to be, to some extent, regulated. I do think that like we've gotta do things the right way with rights holders. I do think that, um, you know, you've gotta navigate this space. Carefully because it's caught a lot of potential to get outta control, but it is so freaking cool, um, from somebody that loves the tech and brand and artist space as like this is the next great opportunity in front of us as, uh, an industry. And again, I think that like there's so many interesting, cool, fun ways to play with it. So I'm having a ball, um, as a creative and as a content creator and as an agency, um, and as an investor and, and, and as just a fan of like that new, new cool hot, um, LT: Hey Jesse. So totally see it all. And just so you know where DC and I are coming from, ever since AI became, you know, real came, became really prominent with chat, GPT becoming live to the world and DC and I have taken the approach. Independently and collectively lean in. We, and, and you can go back two, three years to the show and hear us say that, so we're right with you. Lean in. Um, but what would you say to the folks, because it's scary now to a lot of people. There's artists who see the, and, and as you mentioned, there needs to be some regulation, but there's artists where, you know, the, that your voice and or your music can be easily replicated by AI. So what do you say to the pe to the people who see this as the boogeyman, you know, that are re, that are really scared by that? What do you say to those folks? Jesse Kirshbaum: Don't worry about it. Everybody thought that, you know, the drum machine was gonna destroy drummers and that LT: Right. Jesse Kirshbaum: Uh, you know, the TV business was going to, you know, it was gonna destroy the newspaper and, um, LT: the movie business. Jesse Kirshbaum: Yeah. LT: Yeah. Jesse Kirshbaum: Like we've seen this movie before. It's very cyclical. There's a lot of, uh. Understanding on why you're scared and this change is coming, but also like, again, embrace it and have fun with it. I don't think, like, there was no drummers that ended up, like drummers are still at a premium. Like yes, the drum machine birthed new, new genres and became made music more accessible and made you sounds, but it didn't like ruin the drummer or, or take from the drummer. Like, there's still amazing drummers and people still want drummers and they're still like, uh, you know, it just brought more opportunity and ammunition into the business. So I, I think that, um, artists that are scared, uh, I understand, but I think like. You know, you don't have to put your music into AI. And if people are using your voice and cloning your voice, um, it will be regulated, it will be changed. You can't just like steal some people's ip right. And not think that there's gonna be some repercussions. But I think you wanna be a part of this conversation. Um, because you could also say, I don't wanna be on social media. Right? I don't wanna make, I don't, you could say you don't wanna have a website, you know, you don't wanna be googleable. All of that is your prerogative to some extent. Um, but I think for the most part, like this is something that's fun and creative and I don't think it's taking anybody's jobs like I am, making AI music avatars and, um, playing with different capabilities, vibe, coding, different stacks of, of, of hacking together, all these different ideas. It is not perfect by any means right now, but it is. So fun. And also like you can tell stories better. So figure out where and what is your lane. And I would recommend people to, you know, just understand that the, you know, toothpaste is out of the tube and we're not going back. Um, so, uh, you know, you could be a curmudgeon and take your music off Spotify and, um, you'll quickly, you know, maybe miss, uh, a big opportunity for, you know, what's the zeitgeist talking about right now. So I I, I, I think that we got some great things going in technology, and I think AI is like the, the golden goose. I like crypto too. I mean, I, I don't think that I, I'm disappointed by the promises that were, you know, left un right, un unanswered or untold, you know, on the last cycle. And I think it's, at this point, it's in a lot of ways like a, a gambling game, but there are so much potential to, you know, help this business and, and do things the right way and reinvent fan club and ticketing and um, um, you know, even like digital goods that make so much sense. So I am always in the, you know, from my career, always in favor of technology and understand that like the people that are trying to innovate with technology, um, should be having dialogue with artists because it might be two different conversations and two different agendas, but, uh, at the end of the day, like there's so much complimentary energy between artists and, um, tech founders and in a lot of ways, like, LT: and you've done it, you've, you've brought a lot of them together, which is cool. 'cause you, you said technology's a savior. I love that you took a different approach than a lot of people in the music business. When Napster was happening, they were scared shitless by it and, and sorta didn't react or reacted like a deer in the headlights. So, D you have any thoughts to this question before we head to the next question? DC: We are going to the next question. Next question. Thank you, Jesse. What are you most proud of brother? Jesse Kirshbaum: I think with all the wins and the fact that I've had my own company for 17 years and it's been these multiple iterations of representing artists, signing artists like J. Cole and Wale and Big Sean, and Pusha T and Logic and White Panda, that then Spawned Griffin and um, you know, a whole series, Mike Posner and Chitty Bang, all these great acts that I used to represent. And those were all great moments and there's been so many great things with them. Or even these brand campaigns and awards and all that, all of that is great. But the agency model is like, you know, you just always feel like you're only as good as your last or your next. And I think that the, probably the thing I'm most proud of is that I've remained independent. And that I'm still in business. I, I, you know, pinch myself sometimes, right? Yeah. That like, I get to do this and like, I thank God that I'm still in business, right? Like, it, I survived pandemics. I've survived so many ups and downs and, um, you know, running a business is not necessarily like my strong suit. I love creativity. I love connectivity. I love making things come to life. But, um, the fact that I have been able to keep the lights on and the engine humming and everybody's health insurance paid, and, um, mm-hmm. Been able to stay in business like, you know, month after month, week after week, um, I think is the thing I'm most proud of. I, I know how hard it is to run a company. I can't believe that, um, you know, we, we wear all these different hats and have been able to keep this business up and running and, and still going. Um, so I think that the most thing I'm most proud of is the fact that I'm still here. And, uh, in a lot of ways, feel like the best is yet to come. DC: Congratulations, brother. Congratulations. LT: Love it. Jesse Kirshbaum: Thank you. LT: All right, D, should we hit the next segment? DC: Let's do it. LT: All right. Uh, so Jesse, we're moving on to the next section, and this is what we call what's popping. What's popping? D what's popping? Jesse? DC: What's popping? LT: So, Jesse, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. And I know you had a couple of of topics you amusing for us. So, uh, we're gonna throw it to you to come up with the best one. Jesse Kirshbaum: Well, look, the biggest thing that happened is the fact that Coachella is back. Coachella announced a very eclectic, very. Cool lineup. Um, early, right the past couple years, I felt like Coachella was more interesting to me than Coachella. And now we're in a world where, holy cow, you can put a bill together, talk about range. David Byrne clips, uh, Kenny, uh, Carol G uh, sway Lee. Um, you know, Chloe Chalet, like so many great different artists are now all on this one epic playlist and it's, they're gonna keep the momentum with two weeks and it's just all of a sudden, like Coachella always sets the tone. It's always the first festival of the new season. Uhhuh and summer music festivals are very, very important to the livelihood of this industry. And the fact that Coachella came out swinging with Justin Bieber and like all of these different great acts and, and just have it be this really eclectic, wide ranging mainstream playlist. And they announced it so early this year. They took their learnings, they got in front of it. They even beat the Super Bowl, which is, you know, the biggest punch of, you know, the biggest stage of all in 2026. They beat them to the punch. Yeah. I, I feel like we're, um. Looking to a really, really exciting 2026 live music space. And, uh, I think, again, this is just a, a huge door opener to brands coming to play or brands coming and doing the surrounding events or music fans checking this out, or, um, even just like what we're gonna see across the board from the boutique artists festivals to the, uh, other big mainstream festivals to, um, where things go from here. Uh, they now have set the tone that like 2026 is gonna be a big year for live. And I think that feeds a lot of the other facets of the business. LT: That's super cool. When do they, uh, because I'm not familiar with when they u when do they normally announce? How much earlier is it this year? Jesse Kirshbaum: November, December. LT: Okay. Jesse Kirshbaum: Like, you know, right before the Grammys. LT: Right. Jesse Kirshbaum: Um, you know, and they, it's really been a, a conversation that doesn't happen before. Super Bowl before, uh, in September. And, and you know, they had a run where they were able to sell out before they even announced the lineup. The brand was that strong. DC: Oh yeah, that's right. Jesse Kirshbaum: It's not that anymore. Right. And like, you gotta, you gotta put together the amazing package and then the artists come and they show out. This is the place to bring the technology. This is the place to have the Tupac hologram. This is the place to have all your guest surprises that you've never seen. Like this is the ultimate smorgasbord board of, of tastes and, and flavors and, um, you know, they really do it right. So I, I think like I was starting to be like, not that excited about Coachella not that excited about even the live experience. Like, I can watch it all from home. I can watch it all from a computer. I don't need to, to to, to be there to experience it. And then. It came out swinging. And I think it, like, you know, sets the tone that like, again, we're gonna be IRL and we're gonna be in real life and, and live shows are still gonna be, um, extremely important and relevant. And, uh, and, and, and so that's exciting because it's like, now we know what I love getting new information and like, this felt like a download. And some people don't like the lineup. Some people are a little disappointed. Some people feel like it's not indie rock enough, it's not punk enough. I get it. But I think that they basically showed that this business is all about range and um, put together the eclectic vibe that is going to have something for everybody. And, uh, you know, by coming in early and coming in strong. Now, um, now everybody else is kind of like, again, playing follow the leader. So again, Coachella, they call it the Coachellation of the US Open. It was an amazing event a couple weeks ago. DC: Ah, okay. Jesse Kirshbaum: It's again, now becoming more of a verb, more of a zeitgeist. Um, it, it, they, they show that they didn't lose a step, in fact, that they, that they're gonna continue to define what, uh, festival culture looks like here in America. LT: Good for them. Jesse Kirshbaum: So that's what's popping. LT: That's awesome. D, any thoughts? DC: Uh, I do, I wanna give respect to the Coachella fam. They fell off a little bit. They fell off a little bit. I mentioned upfront about you, Jesse. Interesting to me, and all due respect is the fact that you've got this range and Coachella has come back to leveraging the range and exposing different genres and audiences to one another and bringing them together. You mentioned Justin Bieber is one of the headliners. There might be some of the Coachella faithful that might turn their nose up to that Bieber's a star. Carol G, you mentioned Carol G. Most of the world became aware of her three years ago when she was in a Corona ad. Before that they didn't know broadly, they didn't know Carol G. And then this year's lineup, the range of. The Strokes, Moby, Major Laser, Sexy Red and Atlanta's own, Young Fuggery, young Fuggery. That's, that's a, that's a range of a lineup. And I recognize that in Coachella. And I say thank you to Coachella, to going back to your roots of boldly proclaiming range. That's what's popping for me. LT: That puts a capper on it. That's awesome. That's, Jesse, that's a great, what's popping. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you brother. We're moving. We're moving to the learnings. Jesse, this is what happens, man, when we have great shows like this one, they move so fast and all of a sudden we're at learnings. Um, so DC and I are gonna posit our learnings and, um, and it, we will go from there. So I, I have some really deep ones, but they're only four of 'em. And, but they're awesome. So number one. There's two types of music, good and bad. I love that one. That's number one. Number two, music should be a part of every brand strategy. Each brand should have a soundtrack that is a music extension of that brand strategy. That's huge. Brand nerds. If you're not doing that, you need to be thinking about it and not just thinking about it, but acting upon it. Number three, find your brother. Alex, may not be a sibling like it is for Jesse, but find someone who you can trust, know she or he has your back, and three has complimentary talents to yourself. And four, like Jesse did from the get go, he talked about technology is the savior of the business as it relates to music, so he's completely leaned in from tech when he was in college. Uh, this goes to people in the music business, but this goes to marketers and anyone who's touching culture and doing the things we're doing. You need to embrace tech and change and lean all the way in and figure out your lane of where you fit. Those are mine. DC: Excellent. Larry. Jesse, I only have one regret going through this podcast, and that is, I wish I'd known about you many, many moons ago. There's a dear friend of mine who unfortunately is no longer with us, so I'm gonna posthumously give him his flowers because you all remind me of one another. And that's Rob Stone of Cornerstone and Fader and John Cohen. Also my boy. What they did in music. And they also, as you know, were, uh, really close and business partners with Pharrell and many other artists. I wish I'd known about you because I am certain we would have worked together before. Uh, now, and now that I know you, I am bullish on the fact that we're gonna work together after this. This is the part of the program, Jesse, where I attempt to connect what I have heard you say to what I believe are some of your most important gifts that you have shared with us on this planet. And I'm gonna attempt to do that now. When you were answering the question about tech and marketing, you said you were attempting to focus on two markets and bring them together, the college market. This is what had me think about Cornerstone and Fader and the technology market. I'm thinking, oh yeah, that, that, that, that's a, that's two markets coming together that, that's really dope. Then I thought about your answer to the question of your biggest F up and you talked about Pharrell, and while you weren't able to make that deal happen, Jesse, the attempt was still an, and it was the artist in music of Pharrell and a uniform, something unexpected, or the artist in mind of Pharrell and, and with Oreo and an Oreo as a subway, uh, top. So you still had an, and there, and then finally you talked about, uh, your brother. And your brother is, this is a Jesse Ann and Alex. KBA or more specifically stated, a Jesse and a Kbo. It's an and for you, and you bring together things that are unexpected. You don't expect brothers to work together for 14 years. You expect that to happen for a few years, and then they get tired of one another and go their separate ways. You don't expect to still be in business with the Pharrell or Eclipse after having a deal go sideways. You don't necessarily expect a college market and tech to go together when you were doing it. It's an and for you, and your ands are unexpected. Which brings me to what I think you are. When I was a kid, Jesse, in Detroit, there was a DJ that was known around the world. His name was the Electrifying Mojo. The Electrifying Mojo. He instilled in us as young radio listeners. Yes. Brand nervous. It was radio back then, young radio listeners, was this range that you are about range unexpected things. So we would listen to Parliament Funkadelic, and then we would also listen to techno with Juan Atkinson. We would listen to both of these things in the same four hour block, Jesse, and that's you. And there's a artist that is under recognized, but they are no doubt one of the best at bringing together music and tech and they were the originators. What you do is new in NUE These artists were new in NEW and NUE and that is this, you are the craft work. WERK craft work, makers of the song Trance Europe, express of the marketing and music game. That's what I think you are. And if you're not familiar with craft work, brother, check them out. Check them out. You will understand why I am saying this about you. LT: How's that landed, Jesse? Jesse Kirshbaum: Wow. That is just so beautiful. And what a amazing recap you both bring to this. It's like, I, you could send this into chat, GBTI wonder what they would say of the learnings. Yeah, I think you, you both nailed it and mm-hmm. You know, the, the rhythm and the cadence of how it came from the talking points to then like, drawing this kind of super, uh, animated kind of diagnostic of of, of who and what this means. I've never heard. I've been the craft work and, um, I just love that I, uh, honestly, I'm touched by it and I, I might have to make that my alter ego or, or, you know, one of my, you know, kind of super DNA vibe, um, AI expressions because, um, that means so much, uh, to, to hear that from both of you in, in this perspective. Like, it, it really, when you started the conversation talking about obituaries mm-hmm. When we reread my bio. Uh, I felt like, look, my obituary, I gotta talk to my therapist because I've written a completely different obituary for myself, you know, if I wanted to kind of project where I'm going. Yeah. Um, and you know, this kind of allows me to, to ground in, in what, what I've done so far and, and the lessons and learnings, even though I feel like in so many ways. I think like all of us, that, um, there's a world of, of opportunity and, and, and ways to leverage our experiences and, um, knowledge and relationships to compound to enjoy the fruits of our compounding now and in the future, it'll only keep getting better. LT: That's it, man. Uh, that's a wrap. That's a Jesse, that's a wrap, man. This has been such a great time. Uh, Jade, we're hitting the show close. Uh, thanks for listening to Brands, Beats and Bytes The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darrell d DC Cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom Dero, DC: The pod father. Father, father. LT: That's, that's him. Father. Father, if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share and for those on Apple Podcasts that you are so inclined. We love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast, and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.