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BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:07
Speaker 2: Two bodies found in the search for two Kansas moms
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Speaker 2: who disappear en route to a children's pickup and birthday
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Speaker 2: party for in custody after pools of blood found next
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Speaker 2: to the missing mom's empty car. I'm Nancy Grace. Thank
0:23
Speaker 2: you for being with us. I'm Nancy Grace and this
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Speaker 2: is crime Story again. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: In the last hour's breaking news, two bodies have been
0:44
Speaker 2: found in a rural area. We believe at this hour
0:49
Speaker 2: they are the bodies of two missing Kansas moms. The
0:54
Speaker 2: two moms go missing as they are en route to
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Speaker 2: pick up children for a children's birthday party. What more
1:01
Speaker 2: do we know?
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Speaker 3: Take a listen to this.
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Speaker 4: Fifteen days after Veronica Butler and Jillian and Kelly are
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Speaker 4: reported missing, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announces the
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Speaker 4: recovery of two bodies. The identity of the remains has
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Speaker 4: not been confirmed as of yet, but we do know
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Speaker 4: the remains have been sent to the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's
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Speaker 4: Office for identification as well as the cause and manner
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Speaker 4: of death.
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Speaker 2: Those two bodies waiting to be identified at the Oklahoma Morgue.
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Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
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Speaker 2: what we know right now. We are also learning that
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Speaker 2: at this hour four people in custody.
1:36
Speaker 3: What more do we know?
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Speaker 2: Lauren Colin is joining US investigative journalists, host of Outlier
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Speaker 2: podcast at laurenconlin dot com. Lauren, thank you for being
1:45
Speaker 2: with us. Tell me about the discovery of the bodies,
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Speaker 2: and we will get to the four defense behind bars
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Speaker 2: in a moment. But first, these bodies. Do you believe
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Speaker 2: they're the two Kansas moms?
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Speaker 5: Unfortunately, Nancy, I believe they found the bodies of Veronica
2:02
Speaker 5: Butler and Jillian Kelly. They did say they found the
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Speaker 5: bodies in Texas County. Three of the people arrested are
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Speaker 5: from Simmerin County. I did find that one of the
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Speaker 5: men arrested. I know you'll get to it. He does
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Speaker 5: own some land in Texas County, a place called Texahoma, Oklahoma.
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Speaker 6: So I guess we'll see.
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Speaker 5: But as soon as the news broke on Saturday that
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Speaker 5: they believed the pools of blood were possibly from the.
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Speaker 6: Women being shot, immediately when they found these bodies, I
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Speaker 6: thought it was them.
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Speaker 3: Well, here's the other bombshell.
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Speaker 2: In addition to four people being behind bars, right now
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Speaker 2: in connection with the discovery of the two bodies. One
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Speaker 2: of those people is one of the women's mother in law, granny.
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Speaker 3: That's right, a mother in law behind bars after her
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Speaker 3: daughter in law.
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Speaker 2: We believed body is found en route to a kid's
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Speaker 2: birthday party. Joining me renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, opioid
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Speaker 2: treatment expert, and author of American narcan doctor William Maroney.
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Speaker 2: Doctor moroney, if these two bodies, and again, everybody, we're
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Speaker 2: going to get to the four people behind bars right now,
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Speaker 2: one of them being one of the victims of mother
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Speaker 2: in law. I mean, I know a lot of mothers
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Speaker 2: in law don't get along with the daughter in law,
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Speaker 2: but really, now the child is going to be raised
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Speaker 2: without a mother at all. Any mothers better than no mother,
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Speaker 2: many people would argue, But doctor Moroney, I want to
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Speaker 2: get to the bodies, because doctor Moroney, this is the
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Speaker 2: key to solving this case. What do you make of
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Speaker 2: what Dave mac just reported that authorities do not believe
3:48
Speaker 2: the two bodies had been exposed to the elements for
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Speaker 2: the entire two weeks the women were missing. What are
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Speaker 2: they talking about?
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Speaker 7: The first thing they're talking about is temperature and humidity
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Speaker 7: we call weather. If you put a body in moderate weather,
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Speaker 7: it begins to bloat and dry out, and there's insect activity.
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Speaker 7: So the lack of bloating, the lack of drying, and
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Speaker 7: the lack of blowflies suggest the bodies were indoors, They
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Speaker 7: were hidden and maggots. Maggots take over in four to
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Speaker 7: five days at sixty to seventy to seventy five degrees.
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Speaker 7: Maggots can take a full body down to near skeleton,
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Speaker 7: something that looks like an Egyptian mummy. If you have
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Speaker 7: a body and you have facial recognition and you have
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Speaker 7: big muscle mass, that body was in a cooler, that
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Speaker 7: body was in a shed, that body was in a trunk,
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Speaker 7: or that body was wrapped in plastic.
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Speaker 2: Annie, I say, you have a guest with you today.
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Speaker 2: I believe that is Willow.
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Speaker 3: Why why can't you tell us with Willow?
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Speaker 7: What I want to tell you about with Willow is
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Speaker 7: the emphasis on pools of blood in a gunshot. You
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Speaker 7: have a penetrating injury that when you have blood, you're
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Speaker 7: going into the body deep. We're talking six seventy ten inches.
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Speaker 7: That's how you get enough blood out of a body
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Speaker 7: with gunshot. If you had to stab a box with something,
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Speaker 7: you'd need thirty or forty of these, and you'd have
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Speaker 7: to get people in the groin here, under the arms,
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Speaker 7: or in the neck. Even if you had a larger knife,
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Speaker 7: you still need twenty or thirty deep wounds to create
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Speaker 7: pools of blood. Two gunshots can give you pools of blood.
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Speaker 2: Now, you just pointed to willow, and you pointed to
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Speaker 2: three separate locations. I assume that you are referring to
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Speaker 2: the carotid, the femeral, and the arm.
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Speaker 7: The arm arteries large vessels. That's the only way you
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Speaker 7: can get pools of blood with a knife. With a gun,
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Speaker 7: you can get pools of blood with just two shots.
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Speaker 2: Now, that would be the femeral, which is down on
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Speaker 2: either side of your crotch. It's your leg major major artery,
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Speaker 2: as big or bigger than the carotid artery. That's why
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Speaker 2: you know you get shot in the leg, you can
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Speaker 2: bleed out just as quickly as you can with the
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Speaker 2: carotid artery. The carotid artery, of course, everyone knows, is
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Speaker 2: uh the artery leading I would say, as a layperson
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Speaker 2: from the heart to the brain, right right, right, Okay,
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Speaker 2: And then what was the arm one called a brak
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Speaker 2: you'll artery, what is that called?
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Speaker 7: Yes, the brachial artery. The breakial complex veans nerves and arteries.
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Speaker 7: But your big vessels are going to be femeral and
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Speaker 7: in the neck.
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Speaker 3: Guys.
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Speaker 2: The reason we're going into this is because multiple large
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Speaker 2: pools of blood were found around the missing Kansas mom's
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Speaker 2: empty vehicle.
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Speaker 3: Listen.
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Speaker 8: Initially, police said there was evidence of suspicious circumstances in
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Speaker 8: Veronica Butler's car. That evidence was a small amount of
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Speaker 8: blood inside the vehicle. Police have now released new information.
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Speaker 8: The vehicle was found on a dirt path one thousand
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Speaker 8: feet off Oklahoma State Highway ninety five, and near the car,
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Speaker 8: police find multiple puddles of blood, leading investigators to conclude
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Speaker 8: the women were shot before they were abducted.
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Speaker 2: So to you, doctor William Moroney, I want to talk
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Speaker 2: about what evidence we can get from, and we both
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Speaker 2: fully believe these are the two women's bodies. Okay, you've
7:59
Speaker 2: got two women missing. Two bodies are found not too
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Speaker 2: far away in an area where Lauren Colin pointed out
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Speaker 2: one of the defendants we think owns property nearby.
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Speaker 3: And then immediately after the two.
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Speaker 2: Bodies are found four people are arrested. Hold on with me,
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Speaker 2: doctor William Moroney, renowned medical examiner. We're very honored to
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Speaker 2: have him on today. Also joining me right now, Tim Janssen.
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Speaker 2: He's a high profile former federal prosecutor and analyst for
8:31
Speaker 2: the Tallahassee Democrat, and today he has a special insight
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Speaker 2: on mothers in law that kill. He has just finished
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Speaker 2: an extensive analysis regarding the Dan Markle murder and behind
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Speaker 2: bars right now as the let me say, puppet master
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Speaker 2: of all that is Missus Adelson, the mother in law.
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Speaker 2: You know, Tim Jansen, I don't believe I've ever seen
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Speaker 2: anything a lot where mothers in law are so enraged,
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Speaker 2: very often over the grandchild. Remember in the Markall case,
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Speaker 2: Dan Markle, the Florida professor, refused to move so his
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Speaker 2: wife could take another job or relocate near her mother
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Speaker 2: down I believe it was in Miami or South Miami,
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Speaker 2: and next thing you know, he's dead and mother in
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Speaker 2: law is behind bars.
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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's bad.
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Speaker 9: It seems like these parents are grandparents and now going
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Speaker 9: to the second parental stages where the grandchildren are more
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Speaker 9: important than anything in their lives. Looking at this booking
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Speaker 9: photo looks like a very troubled, hardened woman who had
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Speaker 9: a difficult life, who had these grandchildren.
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Speaker 3: Well old, Oh wait a minute, Wait a minute, you're.
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Speaker 2: Taking one look at her skin care and you're saying
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Speaker 2: she had a hard life, because I am not buying
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Speaker 2: into that one minute. And I don't care how bad
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Speaker 2: her upbringing, her life was, for trying to know nothing
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Speaker 2: about yet, that does not excuse double murder.
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Speaker 3: Just no, Tim Jansen, I'm very surprised you would even
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Speaker 3: say that.
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Speaker 2: No, No, I'm not she's having a hard life because
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Speaker 2: she's got wrinkles.
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Speaker 3: Well, they were all up the creek without a paddle.
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Speaker 2: No.
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Speaker 9: What I'm saying is, I've seen lots of photos like this.
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Speaker 9: It's clear that no one should kill anyone. She should
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Speaker 9: turn over the kids. It's clear that the bodies were
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Speaker 9: moved because lack of decompensation, and the police are gonna
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Speaker 9: figure it out. They're going to leave some DNA residue.
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Speaker 9: They've got the suspects. It's not a coincidence that these
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Speaker 9: people were missing. They were shot in the car, large blood.
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Speaker 9: It's clear people kill people who they know. This is
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Speaker 9: not a serial murder. And I'm not giving any judgment
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Speaker 9: on whether she did it or didn't do it, I'm
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Speaker 9: just saying that's not a very nice booking photo.
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Speaker 3: Guys.
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Speaker 2: In the last hours, Ellie law enforcement speaks Listen.
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Speaker 10: We received a call on March thirtieth of an abandoned
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Speaker 10: vehicle missing with persons missing from the vehicle. Deputies immediately
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Speaker 10: responded to the area when they received When they arrived
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Speaker 10: on scene, they found some things that just weren't adding up,
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Speaker 10: So we established a crime scene and then notified the
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Speaker 10: LSBI to have them come and assist us with this
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Speaker 10: and to actually take lead on the case. We established
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Speaker 10: a search party made up of the Gamment Fire Department
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Speaker 10: and several of the volunteer fire departments in the county,
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Speaker 10: and we searched the area around the crime scene for
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Speaker 10: about a mile in each direction.
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Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Two bodies found in the hunt for Kansas moms who
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Speaker 2: vanished two weeks ago, police arresting four people for murder
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Speaker 2: and kidnap after quote pools of blood were found next
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Speaker 2: to their empty car. Doctor William Maroney are NOOW medical
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Speaker 2: examiner and author of American Narkian on Amazon dtr Moroney
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Speaker 2: back to the three arteries femeral caroateid braki'al. Large pools
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Speaker 2: of blood, multiple large pools of blood, and it brings
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Speaker 2: to mind Dr William Maroney Jennifer Dulos that missed the
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Speaker 2: Connecticut missing mother of five. Cops thought into her garage
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Speaker 2: and I'm like, yes, she's dead because there's so much
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Speaker 2: blood found in her garage. There's no way she could
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Speaker 2: be alive. Now, how does that happen? How much blood
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Speaker 2: does there have to be for you to know the
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Speaker 2: victim is dead.
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Speaker 7: Here's example from one of our local barbecues. This is
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Speaker 7: a gallon, sorry, this is a leader of iced tea.
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Speaker 7: You can survive, you won't be able to breathe, and
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Speaker 7: you'll have low blood pressure. But this is the limit.
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Speaker 7: This is the threshold of how much blood you have
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Speaker 7: to lose, demonstrated as iced tea from my barbecue shop.
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Speaker 7: Something would absolutely call you would call exanguination that you're dead.
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Speaker 7: Would be two full leaders A two leader.
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Speaker 2: Okay, can you hold on just a moment, plays Doctor
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Speaker 2: William moriamie. Can you please speak imperial, not metric, not
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Speaker 2: milli leaders. Okay, So it's my understanding that one US
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Speaker 2: gallon is point two six ' four leaders, Okay, so
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Speaker 2: point to six.
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Speaker 3: About a close to a third.
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Speaker 2: Of a leader okay, a third of a gallon? Okay,
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Speaker 2: that's a half a gallon. And you're saying you will
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Speaker 2: not exeguinate with a half a gallon? How much do
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Speaker 2: you have to bleed to be dead? A full gallon?
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Speaker 7: You'll pass out really close. What do I have on here?
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Speaker 7: Just a little between two and three quarts and you'll
14:23
Speaker 7: pass out and you'll die eventually because you can't get
14:25
Speaker 7: enough oxygen your brain. So that's the limit is less
14:32
Speaker 7: than two quarts. You'll lose consciousness, but you won't die.
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Speaker 7: Two to three quarts you can't function. Your heart will
14:43
Speaker 7: go into a schemia and you'll have a stroke and
14:45
Speaker 7: your brain won't work.
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Speaker 3: Okay.
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Speaker 2: Straight out to James shell Nutt joining US twenty seven
14:51
Speaker 2: years metro major case and former SWAT now high profile
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Speaker 2: lawyer joining US out of Alabama.
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Speaker 3: James, thank you for being with us when.
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Speaker 2: We here a long line of Texas County sheriffs, SWAT
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Speaker 2: and the OSBI. What does that tell you from your
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Speaker 2: time with SWAT, Well.
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Speaker 11: It tells me two things. Number one, it tells me
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Speaker 11: that they're not going out to do an interview. They've
15:15
Speaker 11: got a warrant in hand. They're going out to put
15:18
Speaker 11: a pair of handcuffs on somebody that they believe is dangerous,
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Speaker 11: somebody in this case who has murdered someone, and somebody
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Speaker 11: in this case who they fill is a threat even
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Speaker 11: to law enforcement.
15:28
Speaker 2: As a SWAT a former SWAT member, what do you
15:32
Speaker 2: do in this kind of situation.
15:34
Speaker 3: You're arresting four people.
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Speaker 11: So what you do here is number One, you gained
15:38
Speaker 11: some intelligence on where you're going to You gain some
15:41
Speaker 11: intelligence on the people, including the backgrounds of these people.
15:45
Speaker 11: Do they have any prior offenses or are they known
15:48
Speaker 11: to possess weapons, which obviously a weapon was involved in
15:52
Speaker 11: this type of crime. So you get some intelligence both
15:55
Speaker 11: on the people you are going to arrest as well
15:56
Speaker 11: as the locations that they may be. And you come
15:59
Speaker 11: up with a game plan and come up with a
16:00
Speaker 11: plan on what each team is going to do and
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Speaker 11: how each team is going to secure the perimeter of
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Speaker 11: the home, and then a plan on the actual entry
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Speaker 11: if indeed you have to make an entry into that home.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting about what you're saying. Jim James,
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Speaker 2: Tim Jansen with me, a former federal prosecutor analyst Tallahassee Democrat,
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Speaker 2: is the level of violence that a grandma slash mother
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Speaker 2: in law will exceed in order to get that grandchild.
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Speaker 2: Because in both Markel where the Florida State law professor
16:35
Speaker 2: was murdered with the grandma the mother in law pulling
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Speaker 2: the strings, and now in this case where the mother
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Speaker 2: in law slash grandmother is arrested, all it was that
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Speaker 2: day is mommy was picking up the children at a
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Speaker 2: designated location the Four Corners Trading Company to go to
16:54
Speaker 2: a kid's birthday party.
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Speaker 3: That's all that was happening. Why do you have to
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Speaker 3: shoe two ladies did one? You don't even know why
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Speaker 3: over a birthday party?
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Speaker 9: Well, you know, in the Markel case, it appears that
17:07
Speaker 9: the grandmother was the one initiating the violence and get
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Speaker 9: her grandkids back. We don't know enough yet in this
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Speaker 9: case how this transpired, but we know a violent crime
17:17
Speaker 9: occurred in the car, the bodies were moved, and they
17:21
Speaker 9: were secreted somewhere for some time period, and then the
17:24
Speaker 9: bodies were placed where they were found. So we don't
17:27
Speaker 9: know exactly what the grandmother's role was, but clearly she's
17:31
Speaker 9: involved in this just likes Miss Markela, I mean Miss.
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Speaker 3: Ailsen, was you know another issue here?
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Speaker 2: You have two locations. This is significant and I want
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Speaker 2: to go to you again. James shel Nutt, twenty seven
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Speaker 2: years Metro major case and SWAT Now lawyer shelle Nutt.
17:53
Speaker 2: We just saw and Sean Puffy comes aka Diddy, simultaneous
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Speaker 2: raids going down on two sides of the country and
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Speaker 2: it was just very heavily orchestrated.
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Speaker 3: And planned ahead of time by the FEDS.
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Speaker 2: In this case, You've got at least two, if not
18:12
Speaker 2: three law enforcement l units together and they raid two places,
18:18
Speaker 2: make four arrests in two locations. That is a lot
18:23
Speaker 2: of planning and precision timing.
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Speaker 11: Absolutely, and what they're trying to do is they're trying
18:29
Speaker 11: to maintain the element of surprise. You know, when you
18:32
Speaker 11: go to one house where one group of suspects is
18:35
Speaker 11: at and then there's another group of suspects at another house,
18:38
Speaker 11: you know, you have to anticipate that somebody may call
18:40
Speaker 11: the second group and say, hey, we've got police here,
18:43
Speaker 11: which will give them time enough to possibly are themselves,
18:46
Speaker 11: possibly time enough to escape. And if it's not the
18:48
Speaker 11: group of suspects, you know, people tend to know their neighbors.
18:51
Speaker 11: Often they have each other's numbers and way to get
18:53
Speaker 11: in touch with each other. So yeah, it's critical both
18:56
Speaker 11: for the safety standpoint of law enforcement serve of these
18:59
Speaker 11: warrants as well as to make sure that the suspects
19:02
Speaker 11: you're looking for were't tipped off and escape.
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Speaker 2: Lauren Colin joining me, investigative journalists, host of The Outlier, Lauren,
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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Explain to me how
19:11
Speaker 2: the arrests go down to simultaneous arrests in two locations,
19:16
Speaker 2: so four in all.
19:18
Speaker 5: So Tad Cullum and Tiffany Adams, they were dating and
19:24
Speaker 5: they were together. He is a known associate of her.
19:27
Speaker 5: I think we all saw this coming from the beginning.
19:30
Speaker 5: And then Cole and Coorra Twombly they are also friends.
19:35
Speaker 2: Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait wait cal
19:39
Speaker 2: Earl Twombley and Cora Twombley.
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Speaker 3: They're more than friends. They've got the same last name,
19:44
Speaker 3: they're married.
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Speaker 6: They're friends with Tiffany and.
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Speaker 2: Tad, friends of Tad Colum and Tiffany Adams.
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Speaker 3: Got it, Okay, yes, exactly.
19:52
Speaker 5: And so I want to add something that there was
19:56
Speaker 5: a scheduled hearing for custody on April sevent teenth, twenty
20:00
Speaker 5: twenty four, where Veronica Butler was petitioning to have overnight visits,
20:06
Speaker 5: unsupervised visits, and overall increased visits with her children, and
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Speaker 5: it was very clear Tiffany Adams did not like this.
20:14
Speaker 6: She actually had.
20:15
Speaker 5: Her son relinquished parental rights and threw her son under
20:20
Speaker 5: the bus and saying, look, Veronica took advantage of the
20:23
Speaker 5: fact that my son was into partying and drugs and
20:27
Speaker 5: didn't seem to care about caring for his children anymore,
20:30
Speaker 5: so she swooped in and all of a sudden, one
20:33
Speaker 5: of these additional visits.
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Speaker 2: Hey White, well, why I want to hear more about
20:37
Speaker 2: what you're saying, Lauren Colin joining me investigative journalists. You're
20:40
Speaker 2: saying that grandma, grandma's Tiffany Adams age fifty four, also
20:46
Speaker 2: mother in law to one of the victims of Veronica Butler.
20:50
Speaker 2: This is the mother in law and when her own
20:53
Speaker 2: son was fining for custody, she swoops in backstabs her
20:58
Speaker 2: own son, so she the grandma, can't get custody.
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Speaker 5: Yes, and let me point this out. This could be nothing,
21:05
Speaker 5: but I thought the timing was very very odd. So
21:08
Speaker 5: when she is filing emotion or I think it was
21:13
Speaker 5: it was November fifteenth, she filed emotion for continuance. The
21:17
Speaker 5: next day, her son is booked and arrested on a
21:22
Speaker 5: firearm charge having.
21:25
Speaker 6: A firearm after committing a felony.
21:27
Speaker 5: And I thought to myself, did she turn her own
21:31
Speaker 5: son in so he wouldn't have to be a part
21:33
Speaker 5: of any of this? That occurred to me. Is she
21:36
Speaker 5: that calculated? Is she that devious? And I think she was.
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Speaker 2: Doctor William Moroney, now medical examiner joining us. I'm not
21:46
Speaker 2: sure I'm buying into the theory the bodies had not
21:49
Speaker 2: been exposed to the elements. We're not going to really
21:53
Speaker 2: know anything until we hear from the medical examiner. If
21:58
Speaker 2: the bodies had been exposed to the elements. And I
22:01
Speaker 2: believe it was fifty four degree weather, but it fluctuates.
22:05
Speaker 3: What would you expect to find, doctor.
22:07
Speaker 7: Moroni, fifty four degrees is the lower limit of almost
22:12
Speaker 7: normal ambient outdoor. You would definitely see blowflies and maggots
22:18
Speaker 7: eating away at masses of protein and muscle. They start
22:22
Speaker 7: in the mouth, they go to the ears, they come
22:24
Speaker 7: out of the eyes. You'd lose the heads right away,
22:28
Speaker 7: and then they kind of go to the groin, they
22:32
Speaker 7: go to the rectum, and then they eat upwards and
22:35
Speaker 7: the rest of the body would bloat. At fifty four degrees,
22:40
Speaker 7: maggot activity might go on for a week. At sixty
22:44
Speaker 7: five to seventy degrees, maggots will take the body down
22:48
Speaker 7: the skeletal within two or three days. After that, then
22:54
Speaker 7: it's large insect activity. And if it's cold and there's
22:59
Speaker 7: no maggot activity, you'll still get bloating and decomposition and
23:05
Speaker 7: the body will be dry, hard decomposition, more like a mummy.
23:14
Speaker 7: And when it gets really hot, it's too hot for magots.
23:18
Speaker 7: So you have to be you have to have this window.
23:23
Speaker 7: So we'll see. If these bodies come back with maggot activity,
23:28
Speaker 7: then they've been working on them for a long time.
23:31
Speaker 3: You know.
23:31
Speaker 2: Another issue is how are the bodies going to be identified?
23:35
Speaker 2: I guess if they have decomposed to a certain point,
23:38
Speaker 2: they'll have to be identified by either dental records like
23:42
Speaker 2: cavities in a certain spot, implants, braces, or DNA.
23:50
Speaker 3: Also, if the bodies are decomposed.
23:53
Speaker 2: And this is very critical, doctor Moroney, how will you
23:55
Speaker 2: figure out coeod cause of death.
23:57
Speaker 7: I guess what you're looking for is full body X
24:01
Speaker 7: race to look for rounds shotguns forty fives nine millimeters.
24:08
Speaker 7: And the what we've been leaning with with our local
24:13
Speaker 7: Michigan State Police is that DNA is good, but it
24:17
Speaker 7: takes a long time, and if you've got a good
24:19
Speaker 7: forensic dentist, you can identify a body in a day
24:25
Speaker 7: or two. So dental records, which people always thought was
24:29
Speaker 7: kind of slow and archaic, actually are very fast, and
24:35
Speaker 7: they are a lot faster than DNA. DNA is precise,
24:38
Speaker 7: but it takes a long time. So these are young people.
24:42
Speaker 7: These are young people in situations where they'll have fillings,
24:48
Speaker 7: or they'll have other dental work, or you know, maybe
24:52
Speaker 7: some bridges or some veneers. Very popular things now are
25:01
Speaker 7: the treatments and the cosmetic dentistry is so much more
25:05
Speaker 7: involved now than it was twenty years ago.
25:07
Speaker 2: So you can absolutely identify through dental records. And another thing,
25:11
Speaker 2: if the bodies have been decomposed to such an extent
25:15
Speaker 2: that you're describing.
25:16
Speaker 3: You recall Gabby Petito, who had.
25:19
Speaker 2: Been her remains lying out and dispersed camping out west.
25:23
Speaker 3: So much animal activity had occurred.
25:25
Speaker 2: They identified her originally by the sweatshirt that she was wearing.
25:31
Speaker 2: So sometimes we're at that point until we can get DNA,
25:35
Speaker 2: doctor Moroni.
25:36
Speaker 7: Yeah, what we've seen in bodies that have been exposed
25:39
Speaker 7: for more than two weeks with animal activity is that
25:42
Speaker 7: sometimes you have to be careful that marks on bones
25:46
Speaker 7: and the skull are animals knowing and not assault. But
25:54
Speaker 7: the dental records they're so solid. If you can get
25:58
Speaker 7: back and look at she needs dental records and other things,
26:02
Speaker 7: they last for a long time and they're so much
26:05
Speaker 7: faster than DNA.
26:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, the temperaturers went up, I believe into the seventies,
26:11
Speaker 2: So I don't know what effect that's going to have
26:14
Speaker 2: on the bodies, but once animal activity is factored in,
26:19
Speaker 2: is going to be really hard. So what more do
26:22
Speaker 2: we know about potential motive? Take a listen to Crime
26:26
Speaker 2: Onlines Dave.
26:27
Speaker 4: Mac news report say. Ten days before the moms went missing,
26:31
Speaker 4: Veronica Butler filed a court petition for full custody of
26:34
Speaker 4: her children. Currently, Butler's former mother in law is the
26:37
Speaker 4: children's guardian. Crime Stories has not yet been able to
26:40
Speaker 4: independently verify the petition. KESNTV also requested the document, but
26:44
Speaker 4: we're told the document is now sealed. The order sealing
26:47
Speaker 4: and restricting the case was sealed after the women went
26:50
Speaker 4: missing to quote, protect the integrity of a criminal investigation
26:53
Speaker 4: and to protect minor children. The information on who asked
26:56
Speaker 4: for the document to be sealed is also sealed.
26:59
Speaker 2: Jans shell joining us from the shell Nut Law firm,
27:02
Speaker 2: along with Tim Jensen joining US out of Florida. James
27:07
Speaker 2: shell nutt the timing here the records regarding those custody
27:12
Speaker 2: issues were sealed when the mom and her friend go missing.
27:19
Speaker 2: I find that very probative. It proves to me that
27:22
Speaker 2: that is the motive they're sealing the custody records. I
27:26
Speaker 2: believe because that's the motive.
27:28
Speaker 11: Absolutely well. It's a basic statistical fact that most people
27:32
Speaker 11: are killed when they're victims of homicide by people that
27:36
Speaker 11: they know. And then you look out of the people
27:38
Speaker 11: that they know that are closest to them, and you say, okay, well,
27:41
Speaker 11: who has a motive. You know, it doesn't get to
27:43
Speaker 11: be a much stronger motive than finding over custody of kids.
27:48
Speaker 11: We've seen it time and time again.
27:49
Speaker 2: Four people now behind bars in connection with the disappearance
27:52
Speaker 2: of two Kansas moms on their way to pick up
27:56
Speaker 2: children for a kid's birthday party. These are the four
28:01
Speaker 2: to whom I am referring Tim Jansen joining me, high
28:05
Speaker 2: profile former federal prosecutor now analysts with the Tallahassee Democrat.
28:11
Speaker 2: Tim again, the potential motive of custody, but not from
28:16
Speaker 2: a parent, from.
28:18
Speaker 3: A mother in law.
28:20
Speaker 2: I find that very unusual that you would resort to
28:23
Speaker 2: murder double murder to keep custody of your grandchild.
28:27
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's troubling that a grandparent would assume and commit
28:32
Speaker 9: crimes to keep custody of a grandchild. You know, there's
28:36
Speaker 9: lots of reasons why they could be financially benefiting, if
28:39
Speaker 9: the kids are getting Social Security, or if they're getting
28:42
Speaker 9: child support, or if it's just the grandmother has grown
28:46
Speaker 9: a fond of these grandchildren and they'll revert to anything
28:50
Speaker 9: if they think they're going to lose a court case
28:52
Speaker 9: or if they have lost a court case. It clearly
28:54
Speaker 9: shows a motive and the timing is not just a coincidence.
28:59
Speaker 9: It's very true.
29:00
Speaker 2: And Tim Jansen, you just covered this in the Markell
29:04
Speaker 2: case where Dan Markle was murdered with the mother in
29:08
Speaker 2: law pulling the strings along with the brother of the
29:12
Speaker 2: mom and what it boiled down to you and these
29:14
Speaker 2: are highly educated, rich, wealthy people down in Florida. Long
29:20
Speaker 2: story short, money and education doesn't matter when it comes
29:24
Speaker 2: to custody. And in that case, the grandma thought she
29:28
Speaker 2: was absolutely a better guardian than the father, the biological father,
29:33
Speaker 2: who wanted desperately to be with his children.
29:36
Speaker 9: Well, Donna certainly wanted her daughter and her grandchildren to
29:39
Speaker 9: move to South Florida. On all the evidence proves, or
29:42
Speaker 9: at least an alleged, she pulled the strings and had
29:45
Speaker 9: her son, Charlie commit the crimes by hiring lesser to
29:48
Speaker 9: dos to commit the crime. Now her son's been convicted,
29:52
Speaker 9: the murderers have been convicted, and now Donna is waiting
29:54
Speaker 9: for trial in September.
29:56
Speaker 2: Guys, in the last hours Ellie law enforcement speaks.
30:00
Speaker 3: Listen.
30:00
Speaker 12: On Friday, the informations were filed and they were filed
30:05
Speaker 12: under seal. The reason they were filed under seal was
30:08
Speaker 12: to protect our law enforcement officers and to try to
30:11
Speaker 12: keep the children out of harm's way. We were successful,
30:15
Speaker 12: no shots were fired and the children were kept out
30:17
Speaker 12: of harms way. Our district judges sues an order this morning,
30:21
Speaker 12: and those files are now unsealed, so you can get
30:24
Speaker 12: the informations at the courthouse. You can get the affidavits
30:26
Speaker 12: at the courthouse, which will give you give you the
30:30
Speaker 12: facts that we were working off.
30:32
Speaker 1: Of crime stories with Nancy Grace.
30:46
Speaker 2: Joining me now is a renowned psychologist, TV radio trauma
30:51
Speaker 2: expert Karen Stark. You can find her at Karenstark dot com.
30:56
Speaker 2: That's Karen with a C Karen Stark. Grandparents, mothers in law,
31:03
Speaker 2: the bad blood between the mother.
31:05
Speaker 3: In law and the daughter in law.
31:08
Speaker 2: I've never seen anything like it, And as you know,
31:10
Speaker 2: I'm super blessed because my mother in law was a saint.
31:15
Speaker 2: Can you believe in all the years, we never had
31:20
Speaker 2: one crossword ever, not even once, Karen start Apparently not
31:26
Speaker 2: the case here.
31:27
Speaker 13: You are very lucky, Nancy, because we know so many
31:30
Speaker 13: stories about mother in laws and their daughter in laws
31:34
Speaker 13: and the conflict that they get into or with son
31:37
Speaker 13: in laws. There's been a lot of in law problems,
31:41
Speaker 13: but this case is extreme because you have a mother
31:43
Speaker 13: in law who is obsessed with the children. In some ways,
31:48
Speaker 13: she's delusional, Nancy, because it's as though these are her children,
31:53
Speaker 13: as though she gave births to them, and she will
31:56
Speaker 13: do anything like a mama bear to protect them and
31:59
Speaker 13: make sure that their mother or their father can't get
32:03
Speaker 13: their hands on them. And that is not what you
32:06
Speaker 13: normally find. So you know that there's a problem, there's
32:10
Speaker 13: something with this woman. And think about the fact that
32:13
Speaker 13: she was able to in some way enlist the aid
32:16
Speaker 13: in a way of these other people to help her
32:20
Speaker 13: and convince them that she had to have these children
32:25
Speaker 13: without a doubt they had to be under her care.
32:29
Speaker 13: That's as extremist I've ever heard. As extremists, you can
32:31
Speaker 13: get true obsessions, you.
32:33
Speaker 3: Know, Karen Starr, you're bringing up a really good point.
32:35
Speaker 2: It's not just the mother in law, the grandma to
32:38
Speaker 2: the children, Lauren Colin.
32:40
Speaker 3: Karen Stark is right.
32:42
Speaker 2: If police are correct, this mother in law had to
32:47
Speaker 2: convince three other people to help her commit double murder.
32:54
Speaker 3: Who are these people?
32:55
Speaker 1: Yeah?
32:56
Speaker 5: Absolutely, so I want to go back to twenty twenty two.
32:59
Speaker 5: Tad Cullum used to employ her son, Wrangler Rickman, on
33:04
Speaker 5: his farm, and Tad spoke on behalf of Wrangler in
33:08
Speaker 5: twenty twenty two when he was trying to get his
33:10
Speaker 5: children back. He said, this man is amazing to his kids.
33:14
Speaker 5: He's a great father and he deserves to have them back.
33:17
Speaker 5: At this point, Tad had never been arrested. I did
33:21
Speaker 5: see that there was an arrest in twenty twenty three
33:25
Speaker 5: for feloniously pointing a firearm and going.
33:29
Speaker 6: Over to Cole Twombly.
33:31
Speaker 5: He also served eleven months at the Department of Corrections
33:36
Speaker 5: in Texas for a deadly conduct charge, which is a misdemeanor.
33:40
Speaker 5: So it's really sad that this woman seems to have
33:45
Speaker 5: this power over these people. I don't know their level
33:49
Speaker 5: of intelligence. I don't really know much about them besides
33:53
Speaker 5: their job. The one thing that I find to be
33:57
Speaker 5: very calculated by Tiffany is that I believe.
34:01
Speaker 6: This was planned.
34:02
Speaker 5: She had one court, a pointed supervisor whose name is
34:05
Speaker 5: Cheryl Brune, that was basically had not missed a visit
34:09
Speaker 5: with these children in months, and then all of a sudden,
34:12
Speaker 5: on March thirtieth, Cheryl Brune maybe is told not to come,
34:18
Speaker 5: or maybe you know, she calls in sick. I have
34:20
Speaker 5: no idea, and then Jillian Kelly steps in. So it's
34:24
Speaker 5: completely heartbreaking.
34:26
Speaker 3: This is what I understand.
34:27
Speaker 2: We're wondering how the grandma exercised mind control over the
34:32
Speaker 2: other three. I know that the grandma, Tiffany Adams, was
34:37
Speaker 2: in a love relationship with tad Bert Collum.
34:43
Speaker 3: The two romantically linked. What do we know about that?
34:47
Speaker 6: Yeah, they've been dating for a while.
34:49
Speaker 5: And I do have some local sources that say that
34:54
Speaker 5: Tiffany is scary and it's very well known in that town.
34:58
Speaker 6: I believe you mentioned.
35:00
Speaker 5: It's a really small town of twenty thousand people. So
35:03
Speaker 5: she does exercise this control over many, including her boyfriend
35:09
Speaker 5: Tad Cullum.
35:10
Speaker 6: So I have no doubt she was able to course
35:13
Speaker 6: him very easily.
35:14
Speaker 5: And my local source also said, and I chose not
35:17
Speaker 5: to report on this because I didn't have a police report,
35:20
Speaker 5: but my local source says she witnessed with her own
35:22
Speaker 5: eyes in twenty twenty one, Tiffany Adams actually shove Veronica
35:27
Speaker 5: Butler against a car at a children's sports game.
35:31
Speaker 3: Wow, no love loss there.
35:33
Speaker 2: And now the victim Veronica Butler aged twenty seven, and
35:37
Speaker 2: friend acquainted as Jillie and Kelly age thirty nine, the
35:40
Speaker 2: preacher's wife.
35:41
Speaker 3: Both dead. You know, I'm thinking.
35:44
Speaker 2: About to James shell Nutt the fact that these four
35:49
Speaker 2: had been booked on.
35:50
Speaker 3: Suspicion of murder.
35:53
Speaker 2: Once DNA comes back, I'm pretty sure those charges are going.
35:58
Speaker 3: To be upgraded to murder.
36:00
Speaker 2: What type of evidence are police looking for to upgrade
36:04
Speaker 2: that book in charge to murder? Of course there's going
36:07
Speaker 2: to be an indictment, But until then, what kind of
36:10
Speaker 2: evidence are they try to glean to upgrade this kick
36:14
Speaker 2: it up to full on murder?
36:15
Speaker 11: One, Well, there's a smaller sports of evidence that they
36:18
Speaker 11: can rely on, you know. Number One, they could rely
36:20
Speaker 11: for forensic evidence. You know, whose prints were in the
36:23
Speaker 11: car if you were recovered? Was there any DNA transfer?
36:28
Speaker 11: Whose property were these bodies found on?
36:32
Speaker 7: You know?
36:32
Speaker 11: One of the things that I would be doing as
36:34
Speaker 11: a detective right now is I'd be looking at the
36:37
Speaker 11: person most likely to flip in this scenario and turn
36:40
Speaker 11: on the others. I think that that would be a
36:42
Speaker 11: great route for law enforcement to proceed if they haven't already.
36:45
Speaker 2: Guys, in the last hours, Ellie law enforcement speaks Listen.
36:50
Speaker 14: We received several tips throughout this entire process, the public.
36:55
Speaker 14: I mean, I know that we had faked what that
36:58
Speaker 14: our local law enforcement agencies that they were able to
37:00
Speaker 14: help us and throughout this search, but the people here
37:03
Speaker 14: throughout this area have done a tremendous job of reaching
37:06
Speaker 14: out to us the original press release that we had
37:08
Speaker 14: put out on March thirty first, in regards to searching
37:12
Speaker 14: for these two women, we constantly received several tips and
37:16
Speaker 14: had used those throughout the entire fourteen day process in
37:20
Speaker 14: order to find these two bodies and then also discover
37:27
Speaker 14: and find those who were responsible for this crime.
37:31
Speaker 2: Four people arrested in connection with the disappearance of two
37:34
Speaker 2: Kansas moms.
37:36
Speaker 3: Straight back out to Jameis shell Nut, twenty seven.
37:39
Speaker 2: Years Metro major case, former SWAT, now high profile lawyer
37:44
Speaker 2: at the shell Nut Law firm, James shell Nut, you
37:48
Speaker 2: said you believe that one of the four defendants is
37:52
Speaker 2: going to be flipped. I say, hgbl No, I wouldn't
37:57
Speaker 2: take a deal, even though I firmly leave.
38:00
Speaker 3: Sometimes you got to go to hell to get your
38:02
Speaker 3: witness to put the devil in jail.
38:04
Speaker 2: Not this time, oh no, Because from what I'm hearing
38:09
Speaker 2: from doctor William Morony, this crime scene is going to
38:13
Speaker 2: be rife with evidence.
38:17
Speaker 3: There is gonna be a lot.
38:19
Speaker 2: Of planning text messages because this was an agreed upon
38:24
Speaker 2: pickup by the bio mom for a kid's birthday. Party
38:28
Speaker 2: she was gonna throw for her child. This was planned
38:32
Speaker 2: a long time ago. You know, there's gonna be text messages,
38:36
Speaker 2: phone calls. Those cell phones are going to be traced
38:40
Speaker 2: right back to the area where the women, the two
38:43
Speaker 2: victims were either murdered or where their bodies were disposed.
38:47
Speaker 2: I would not take a deal from any of them.
38:50
Speaker 2: You say, flip is the word. I say, Stu, what do.
38:55
Speaker 3: I mean by that? I would put all.
38:57
Speaker 2: Four of them and the same pott shall not.
39:01
Speaker 11: Well, I agree that that's exactly what that is. Or
39:04
Speaker 11: you know, one of the dumb things that criminals do
39:07
Speaker 11: sometimes is talk. And you know, when the police get
39:10
Speaker 11: them in there the tech to start talking with them.
39:13
Speaker 11: You know, it's not always that they have to promise
39:15
Speaker 11: some type of deal to get a statement. You know,
39:19
Speaker 11: people talk to the police all the time, People give
39:21
Speaker 11: confessions all the time. Sometimes they want to downplay what
39:24
Speaker 11: their role is, and so there doesn't always have to
39:27
Speaker 11: be a deal on the table for suspect to talk
39:30
Speaker 11: in a homicide investigation.
39:31
Speaker 2: Joining me or now psychologists Karen Stark joining us from Manhattan.
39:35
Speaker 2: Karen Stark, He's right, loose lips sink ships. Thank Heaven
39:40
Speaker 2: for prosecutors. Another thing that I love is when defendants
39:46
Speaker 2: talk on the jail phone because all of that's being recorded.
39:53
Speaker 2: Just recently, Karen, you and I were talking about the
39:56
Speaker 2: Crumbley case Ethan Crumley, a notorious school shooter.
40:00
Speaker 3: In a historic jury.
40:02
Speaker 2: Decision, both of his parents were held libel, convicted on
40:08
Speaker 2: houtside for enabling their son to be a mass shooter.
40:13
Speaker 2: And of course you hear the father behind bars on
40:16
Speaker 2: a phone call going f the prosecutor. I'm gonna f
40:20
Speaker 2: her up at making plans to get back and seek revenge,
40:26
Speaker 2: possibly kill the lady prosecutor, the elected district attorney.
40:31
Speaker 1: Keep talking, man.
40:33
Speaker 2: And then of course we saw on video in color
40:38
Speaker 2: top Mom Casey Anthony completely cursing out her parents.
40:43
Speaker 3: When they yeah, when they dared.
40:45
Speaker 2: To say, hey, where's Kelly, and she tore them a
40:50
Speaker 2: new one. And in that jurisdiction, which was Florida, you
40:53
Speaker 2: have not only the audio, you could see top Mom
40:58
Speaker 2: Casey Anthony at much differently than the facade she presented
41:03
Speaker 2: in court. Karen Stark, so talk, Yeah, they're talking.
41:08
Speaker 13: And I think these people, without a doubt, You're right, Nancy,
41:11
Speaker 13: they will talk because they have a previous history with
41:15
Speaker 13: the law, and even though they've been influenced by this woman,
41:18
Speaker 13: brainwashed to some extent, they are not wise enough. They
41:24
Speaker 13: love to be in trouble in a way. That's their lifestyle.
41:28
Speaker 13: They will talk, I have no doubt about it. They
41:31
Speaker 13: will reveal what happened, even though it gets them in
41:35
Speaker 13: trouble because they can't shut up. They really can't. So
41:40
Speaker 13: either they'll do it on the phone or with the law.
41:43
Speaker 13: They're going to talk to somebody.
41:44
Speaker 3: I'm convinced we wait as justice unfolds.
41:49
Speaker 2: Let's stop to remember American hero police officer Jorge Ignacio
41:54
Speaker 2: PASTOREI just thirty eight, shot in the line of duty.
41:59
Speaker 2: Austin the story leaves behind his wife Kim, step children Connor, Trevor,
42:06
Speaker 2: and Taylor. American hero officer Jorge Ignacio Bastore Nancy Grace
42:14
Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend.