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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: One-On-One with Nancy Grace and Joseph Scott Morgan · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Bodybacts with Joseph Scott Morgan. In my opinion, at least,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: life is a series of intersections. You go down this
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  Speaker 1: road that you know, you just think that you know.
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  Speaker 1: Everything that happens in your life is kind of this
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  Speaker 1: benign event. You never know, however, when you cross paths
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  Speaker 1: with somebody, how that person might change your life. Today
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  Speaker 1: is a very special edition of body Backs because I'm
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  Speaker 1: joined by one of the dearest people in my life,
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  Speaker 1: my good friend Nancy Grace, and today we're going to
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  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the importance of education in
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  Speaker 1: forensic science. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Nancy,
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  Speaker 1: wellcome to Jacksonville State University.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I've got to say thank you number one. It's
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  Speaker 2: a beautiful campus and I'm so knocked out by yourn
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  Speaker 2: Forensics building. I think, of course, you'll never admit this.
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  Speaker 2: I think a lot of this has to do with you.
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  Speaker 2: I really do. You have brought the Jacksonville State Forensics
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  Speaker 2: studies to the forefront and you should really be proud
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  Speaker 2: of that. Yeah. Now, let me think, how did we
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  Speaker 2: first meet.
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  Speaker 1: You were still to the DA's office in Atlanta, and
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  Speaker 1: that would not happen, and I was with the EMMY
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  Speaker 1: and look, everybody, everybody in my world, in the medical
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  Speaker 1: legal world, because you know, we're a lot smaller.
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  Speaker 2: Here we go down the garden path.
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  Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's your new title.
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  Speaker 2: Down the garden path, Joe Scott Morgan. No, well, get
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  Speaker 2: to the point for Pete's safe. Be direct.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, this is bodybags, all right, So here we go. Responsible,
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  Speaker 1: we take our time. She is a responsive, okay, so
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  Speaker 1: here we go. So yeah, you know, the medical legal community,
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  Speaker 1: when you think about the forensic practitioners like forensic pathologists,
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  Speaker 1: the EMMY investigators, and even people there at the State
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  Speaker 1: Crime Lab, we're much kind of smaller group than your
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  Speaker 1: everyday police officers that you're going to have coming in
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  Speaker 1: and out of the DA's office.
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  Speaker 2: Prosecutors all elite and special. I'm sure they want I'm
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  Speaker 2: sure they're happy to hear about that.
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  Speaker 1: Now. I don't know that we're a lead. As a
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  Speaker 1: matter of fact, I stayed in the field, probably too
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  Speaker 1: long because I didn't have good enough good stints since
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  Speaker 1: to get away from all these dead bodies. But I
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  Speaker 1: did wound up here at Jacksonville State and it has
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  Speaker 1: absolutely been a blessing, and you're a big part of that.
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  Speaker 1: You had mentioned how I'm a part of this.
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  Speaker 2: I believe your honor objection non responsive. I will have
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  Speaker 2: you declared a hostile witness across examine. How did we
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  Speaker 2: first meet? Can I be any more clear?
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  Speaker 1: Jo? Yes, we met. We met actually Nancy on a
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  Speaker 1: telephone call, and that's really all I'll say about it.
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  Speaker 2: Say the rest.
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  Speaker 1: No, we met on a telephone call. And it was
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  Speaker 1: at that point that you were looking for something that
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  Speaker 1: you were missing from the medical examiner's office. What was
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  Speaker 1: I can't remember. It had something to do with an autopsy,
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  Speaker 1: and I think it actually had to do with a
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  Speaker 1: toxicology report.
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  Speaker 2: Oh hell, yes, it's okay.
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  Speaker 1: So medical examiners never the forendsic. Pathologists don't take phone calls.
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  Speaker 1: It's the investigators that take the phone calls. And so
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  Speaker 1: I was on the receiving end of a bit of
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  Speaker 1: your fury at that moment. Tom said, well, I don't
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  Speaker 1: think I need anything to do with this woman. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: actually did, but that's okay. So we started in conference.
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  Speaker 2: Wait, I hung up on you because you what told
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  Speaker 2: me you didn't know where it was? How can you
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  Speaker 2: have an autopsy and declare COD not mod COD if
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  Speaker 2: you don't have the toxicology report.
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  Speaker 1: Well, exactly, and I'm sure that that's the question you
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  Speaker 1: were asking. But if you knew how things operated at
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  Speaker 1: the office at that point in time, it would not
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  Speaker 1: be completely a surprise the Fulton County, that's right.
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  Speaker 2: Oh you're gravy. Yeah, everybody there would hide under their
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  Speaker 2: desk and they saw my beat up pond.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't care if anybody walked through the door. I
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  Speaker 1: was a friend to all attorneys, all comers, but I
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  Speaker 1: always knew that I had to take everything with a grain.
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  Speaker 2: Of salt, a bag of salt box.
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  Speaker 1: And here's why. And this is the first forensic point.
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  Speaker 1: The reality is this is that we particularly I can
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  Speaker 1: only speak in my practice in medical legal death investigation.
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  Speaker 1: We try to stay right in the middle of the road.
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  Speaker 2: And self respecting medical examiner investigator would tell me the
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  Speaker 2: DA the ADA that you don't have the toxic cology report,
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  Speaker 2: yet somehow you have the manner of death. That cannot
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  Speaker 2: be because until you have that toxicology report, you don't
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  Speaker 2: know what happened. You might think you know, but until
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  Speaker 2: you find out what was in the system, you don't.
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  Speaker 1: Know, you're absolutely right. But here's the thing. You're here.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: What's happening here? Dave? Mac take up? Dave, I see
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  Speaker 2: you at the distance on remote. Do you hear him? Oh?
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  Speaker 1: Every day?
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  Speaker 2: It's hurting right now?
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  Speaker 1: She This is assuming that I knew what the cause
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  Speaker 1: of death was at that point. You wanted the damn
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  Speaker 1: Talks College report and it didn't exist, and I couldn't
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  Speaker 1: pull it out of my There you go, there.
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  Speaker 2: You go, And that's how it all started.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: That's how it all started. And you know, and then
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: you follow our relationship and the fact that you would
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  Speaker 1: even consider having me on when you were certainly with HLN,
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  Speaker 1: and and then I couldn't resist. I could never say
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  Speaker 1: no to you. And I was still at my previous
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  Speaker 1: academic post wound up here in Alabama, and you're actually
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I came here, because, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: because the administration had seen me on your show and
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: they were like, you keep popping up on HLN and
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  Speaker 1: you were with Nancy and I had a relationship with
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  Speaker 1: them anyway. I've been teaching the police academy here for
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  Speaker 1: years and years, and it's like, yeah, I appear on
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  Speaker 1: Nancy Show, and I appear on this show and that
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  Speaker 1: show and this show, and I was like my other institution.
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  Speaker 1: They give me a hard time. They asked me things like, well,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: are you going to be here for your office hours
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: and the entire time? Go on the shows? You would
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: mention my other institution. I came to Jacksonville State and
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: you would proudly say Jacksonville State. And they saw the
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  Speaker 1: value in that.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: What was your old place.
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  Speaker 1: University of North Georgia, North Georgia College up in Delanga, Georgia,
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  Speaker 1: and I helped establish the forensics program there.
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  Speaker 2: You know, when you think about what you do and
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  Speaker 2: what medical examiners do, Joe Scott or do you insist
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  Speaker 2: on being called Joseph Scott?
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  Speaker 1: You can call me anything you want. Joe Scott is
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  Speaker 1: really my norm to gear with you.
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  Speaker 2: Though, Norm Grett really.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: De g Well, we are at a universe.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, Look at Dave. Mackie's actually holding his head down.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: He's trying to say my special name that you call me.
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  Speaker 1: There you go. You don't want to know what Dave
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  Speaker 1: calls me, but go.
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  Speaker 2: Ahead, because and I'm not altogether jesting when I say
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  Speaker 2: people would hide under the desk when I would pull
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  Speaker 2: into the medical examiner's office because you know how long
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  Speaker 2: medical examiner reports are. They're extremely detailed, as they must be.
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  Speaker 2: But a jury, nor can I tolerate. I want to
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  Speaker 2: hear it fast and furious hard. Now give me the
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  Speaker 2: bottom line, because you don't want grrs like drifting off
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  Speaker 2: during the middic of medical examiner's testimony. So and also
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  Speaker 2: every line would be a minefield for me because I
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  Speaker 2: did not understand all of the language or the implications.
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  Speaker 2: So if somebody said, oh, when we were talking about
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  Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg the other day, Okay, if Ellen Greenberg died
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  Speaker 2: in the space of the time of one workout, let's
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  Speaker 2: just say one hour, and she was in ambient ambient
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: temperature in her apartment. Yes, there was a blizzard outside,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: but they had the heat cranked up really hot, and
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  Speaker 2: she was in the kitchen. Then how were her fingertips cold?
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  Speaker 2: So in one line of the medical examiner's report, it
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  Speaker 2: might say something like the fingertips were culled to the touch. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: see that right. There is an element of proof that
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  Speaker 2: tells me about fifty things. So you would have I
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  Speaker 2: would have to go through each line of the medical
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  Speaker 2: report and say, what does that mean, what does that mean?
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  Speaker 2: And the doctors thought their time was too valuable for that,
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  Speaker 2: and they're right. They're the physicians. They've got tons of
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  Speaker 2: dead bodies, They've got to analyze tons of reports to
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  Speaker 2: turn out they don't really have that kind of time.
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  Speaker 2: But when you're preparing for a jury trial, you have
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  Speaker 2: to be able to catch every nuance in a medical
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  Speaker 2: examiner's report. So the way you speak on the air
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  Speaker 2: makes it so understandable. You have a certain way of speaking,
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  Speaker 2: and that's valuable bedside manner.
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  Speaker 1: Well, one of the things you got it with Mese.
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  Speaker 1: I take exception what you said as well. There should
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  Speaker 1: always be time for as I know that you would
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  Speaker 1: agree with this, for all the victims and.
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  Speaker 2: Just because victims, yes, but not all the prosecuting.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know you're the voice for that, and
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  Speaker 1: we should, even more so in the medical legal community,
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  Speaker 1: be the voice for the dead. I mean, we physically
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  Speaker 1: have possession of the remains. We literally and this is
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  Speaker 1: I don't want to get off and be too melodramatic,
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  Speaker 1: but we hold the hearts of the families, you know,
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  Speaker 1: because one of the big questions they always ask me,
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  Speaker 1: you know, when I would go make a notification. I'd
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  Speaker 1: made like two thousand in my career in person, and
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  Speaker 1: so when I would you know, the first question families
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  Speaker 1: always asked me was after they after I'd established the
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  Speaker 1: person that died, they would say, where are they? Because
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  Speaker 1: we're tactile, we want to experience that, we want to
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  Speaker 1: hold on to them, and so we tell the tales
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  Speaker 1: of the dead through the science. And many times there's
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  Speaker 1: a detachment with forensic pathologists where they behave as though
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  Speaker 1: that they don't have time for other people. And this
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  Speaker 1: is the most human of all pract desist because you're
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  Speaker 1: telling the tale of what happened to this person. If
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  Speaker 1: you can't make yourself available for that, and that goes
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  Speaker 1: back to objectivities too, you know, you made me thy.
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  Speaker 1: Think what's up?
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  Speaker 2: I've been thinking about my finances murder a lot during
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  Speaker 2: the last forty eight hours because I had an hour
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: sit down with Steve on Solvs. Yeah, Kelly Gonsalvas's father.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: If you don't know who Kelly Gonsalvas is, google her.
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  Speaker 2: She was one of the four beautiful victims of the
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  Speaker 2: Idaho murders. I believe at the hands of Brian Coburger
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  Speaker 2: that's yet to be proved in court. And when I
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: say beautiful, yes, I'm referring to Ethan as well. When
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  Speaker 2: I look at the four of them, they're just so beautiful,
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  Speaker 2: full of life, full of potential, vitality, stars in their eyes,
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: the dreams of their futures. Anyway, speaking to him, and
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  Speaker 2: he was talking about having to go to the trial
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  Speaker 2: and what that was, hardship, it was going to be
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  Speaker 2: on his family. Yea seven and a half hour drive
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  Speaker 2: one way. It just reminded me of so much of
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  Speaker 2: what I went through. But when Keith died. But do
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  Speaker 2: what you're saying, the Medical Examiner report, the CEO d
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  Speaker 2: the MOD is highly highly sensitive to crime victims' families.
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  Speaker 2: Do you know to this day I've never read Keith's autopsy.
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  Speaker 1: That doesn't surprise me. And if you, for whatever my
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  Speaker 1: advice is worth, I would advise you not to.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not I don't want to because you know what,
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  Speaker 2: Joe Scott, it took me a really long time to
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  Speaker 2: come out of that horrible place. Years. I think that's
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: you know what delayed me so long and marrying to
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  Speaker 2: the point where I almost lost Lucy Lucy and almost
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  Speaker 2: died in childbirth when I was old trying to get
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  Speaker 2: past that. I've never read the autopsy report. I've never
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  Speaker 2: gone to the same of the crime. I've never read
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  Speaker 2: the Appella transcript because I don't want to go to
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  Speaker 2: that spot. My children need me to be whole.
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  Speaker 1: They do. And one of the you know, one of
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  Speaker 1: the things if you remember the old and they do
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  Speaker 1: it all the time on television, where they take they
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  Speaker 1: take family members into a viewing room and they pull
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  Speaker 1: the sheet back and the family gasp and there's some
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  Speaker 1: ghoul looking guy that's you know, pulling the sheet back.
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  Speaker 1: You know it is, it's it's really assaulting. And most
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  Speaker 1: modern medical examiner's offices have gotten away from that. And
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  Speaker 1: the reason why is that the family's already going through
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  Speaker 1: enough and you further traumatize the family by doing that.
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  Speaker 1: In order to achieve positive identification.
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  Speaker 2: Should be done in so many different.
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  Speaker 1: So many different ways.
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  Speaker 2: I did not even want to see Keith in his casket,
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  Speaker 2: and I remember, and I went into the funeral home.
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  Speaker 2: I happened to look off into a chamber where he
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  Speaker 2: was at a distance. I finally saw a tiny slice
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  Speaker 2: of his face. Yeah, and Joe Scott, I passed out.
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  Speaker 2: My mind just could not take it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's something that's burned into your mind for it.
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  Speaker 2: It really is. I'm so glad to hear that practice
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  Speaker 2: is out.
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  Speaker 1: Not so.
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  Speaker 2: My point is medical examiner's death investigators. The impact you
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  Speaker 2: have on proving cases is amazing.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I think that it is in our world. And
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  Speaker 1: one of the things I try to convey to my
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  Speaker 1: students here is that my kind of investigation is completely
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  Speaker 1: separate from what the police do. Police are interested in
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  Speaker 1: finding a bad guy, locking somebody up and getting to
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  Speaker 1: the prosecutor and they can be prosecuted. My interest begins
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: and ends with the body, okay, and whatever they can
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  Speaker 1: do with that data that we produce, which is I've
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: got we not I but we have enough to process
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  Speaker 1: without getting into this mindset of getting outside of our
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  Speaker 1: lanes relative to the job. We have enough on our plate.
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  Speaker 1: You talk about cause of death, manner death, identification of
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  Speaker 1: these people, notification of family. And so that's why in
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: a you know, in a the world that I inhabit,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: I welcomed all attorneys, for instance, whether it's a defensive prosecution,
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  Speaker 1: and just lay it out before them. And plus it
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  Speaker 1: would give us a sense of what to expect when
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: we got on the stand, you know, because each each
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: one of you guys are probing for something different. But
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you something real quick here, particularly
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: considering that we're in this academic environment at jack State,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: looking back through your the lens as a prosecutor and
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: having dealt with so many forensic scientists and practitioners and
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: field personnel. If we could, I'm interested, first off, very broadly,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: what what do you see if you can kind of
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: come up with one sentence answer relative to the biggest
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  Speaker 1: need as a prosecutor, what do you want to see
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: from a forensic practitioner that's going to walk through your
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: door as a prosecutor, that one element may be characteristic
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: that is really going to help you as a prosecutor
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: to do what you have to do and help the
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: courts too.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: The number one thing, to put it in a nutshell,
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: the single most important thing is be prepared.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, do not come.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: In my courtroom without knowing your case backwards, get forwards.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: I will have already been to the scene myself, yeah,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: without the police or anybody else with me, So I
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: can understand that is important as it relates to the body.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: For instance, you can give me the trajectory path of
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: a bullet, but unless I've been to the saying, it
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: means nothing, as in laboratory conditions, So you must be prepared. Also, secondarily,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: you have to be able to communicate your knowledge in
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: a way that's easy to understand. Nobody went to medical school.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Nobody wants to hear your Latin phrases or your French phrases,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: not to give may that's to be okay, So long
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: story short, you have to be able to communicate, and
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: that is a problem with a lot of doctors because
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: they're so smart and they're so educated, it's hard for
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: them to break it down in a simple way to
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: make everyone understand. But when you're talking about different scenarios,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: not necessarily for the medical examiner, but possible for the
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: death investigator, and the importance the critical nature of crime
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: scene analysis. Yes, you were talking earlier before we took
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: to the airwaves about various cases. One you mentioned is
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Chris Watts may he write in Hell, who totally totally
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: disregarded the value of his wife, Shenan Watts, their children,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Celeste and Bella, Nico and Nico. Yeah, baby Nico yet
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: to be born. Yeah, he murdered all of them. He
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: was a pos in technical legal terms, cheating, going on
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: websites just for hookups, while his wife, you know, worked
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: to bring in the money and had the children and
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: raise the children. And I remember it broke my heart.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: I looked in their home. She had a lamp just
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: like a lamp in our guest bedroom, and I remember
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: looking and looking for the right thing came then I
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: suddenly saw it and yay, it was on sale. I
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: think it was at Peer one. And I thought, I
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: wonder how long she took to decorate that home herself,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: because I immediately recognized that we had gotten the same
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: thing and make everything just right. And I looked back
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: at the children's pictures before he murdered them. They were
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: often matching outfits and their hair was always done. And
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: you know that was her, Shenanne, doing all that.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Absolutely she was.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Nothing to him. Now to the crime scene. Now you've
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: got the home, of course where Shenan Watts was murdered.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: But the disposal sight and you and I you really
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: opened my eyes to the excruciating aspect of their disposal
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: was out where he worked, and uh, and a dark
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: something I'll think of the dark. Yeah, refiner refiner fields
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: out in the middle of nowhere. Now it's significant to
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: me because he had worked there or worked near there,
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: So that was a place I would immediately look a
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: place where he had lived, a place where he had worked,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: a place he passes his haunts, because think about it,
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: if you're going to hide out, you don't have to
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: blurt it out. Joe's gott think to yourself, where would
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: you go hide? Well, I guarantee you it's a place
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: that I could find you because it's going to be
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: a place familiar to Okay, so that's there. He goes
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: an a dark oil fields that is an open area.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I got to tell you one of the things,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: you know, and as it goes to that that particular question,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: we're in a very rural area here at Jaxell State
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: and we have a lot of well, we have a
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: lot of kids that come from Metro Atlanta and Chattanooga
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: and Birmingham are student bodies that way, but we have
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of kids that come from rural places and
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: guess what they're going to wind up going back to
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: rural places. And you know, people will hear bout my
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: career and they'll say, well, you worked in New Orleans
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: with a corner and you worked in Atlanta with the meme.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: You've seen everything. No, I have it. I've never seen everything.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: You've never seen everything. And you know what, when you're
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: a rural practitioner, you're going out to do forensics, it's
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: actually probably a tougher job because you have to be
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: all things to all people. I was just teaching a
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: class the other day and I was telling my kids,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: these young kids that think they want to go into forensics,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: and I was like, look, when you were all on
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: a scene. If you're in a twenty you've got like
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: a twenty person police force, you might have to be
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: the crime scene photographer, the crime scene tech. Oh and
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: by the way, you're also the beat unit that responded,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: and then maybe you might have it bad.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: I always took my own photos. I would look for ballistics.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I would visit every scene, witnesses, canvas in the neighborhood
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: all by myself.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I know, but you know now, and you know
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: this when you walk into a courtroom, though. The first
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: thing that you know when it comes to forensics. They
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: claim they don't you like it when they claim, but
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: it is claimed that jurors what they really they want
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: to hear about DNA. And when you start to get
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: up into that skill level and you're in these areas
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: of rural isolation, you know, how is it that that
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: practitioner their background has to be so thorough relative to
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: what they've learned prior to showing up on a scene
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: like out there in Anta Darko. You know, at the
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: oil fields out there, the day to prepare is not
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: the day of the scene. It's months and months in advance,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: having done all of the training. And who could you know?
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: You think about this is the thing that always interests
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: me about that case and case is similar to it.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: We always think about big city with mass violence and
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: all these things. And I don't think that people people
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: in up in Idaho didn't think those four kids were
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: going to get butchered up there, and that you've been there, Nancy.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: That's an isolated place. You think about Chris Watt's isolated place.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: They don't have the same resources. So I think, for me,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: if you were prosecutor in that area, how do you.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: It's not like you're walking into an apartment in a
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Manhattan high rise where you've got four walls around your
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: crime scene and you can do blood spotder analysis in
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: the comfort of the air condition and bring in photography.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Oh no, you are out in an oil filled and
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: you discover by deduction that the children have been forced
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: into cylindrical oil repositories that are so narrow it pulled
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: the skin off their arms. I believe you said, d
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: armed gloving, degloving.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Well, you see the thing.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: I learned that turn from you, And you know that
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: makes me think of a fox glove, flower or gloves
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: I wore as a girl scattered to cotillion de gloving.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: It what it is is it tore the skin off
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: their arms as he stuffed them down into that cylinder.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: And now here comes an investigator. You got to look
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: at all the dirt in the surrounding area, all the
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: potential DNA fingerprints on those cylinders. How do you open
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: the cylinders? Is there a crank? Is there a handle?
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: You have to dig into the dirt. You have to
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: bring out the dogs. And of course they found sNaN
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: watts in a I would say shallow gray nearby. She
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: didn't get an oil coffin, yesff and birth.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Well, here's the other thing. That danger was a real
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: part of this too, because folks don't realize that that
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: was unrefined petroleum in there, so you have things like, oh,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: you had things like toluene. So when they went in
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: to cases, yeah, I mean, so you're talking about literally
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: something you could clean metal with. These people that had
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: to go work that scene, they had to drop the
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: hatches on the side, put on rebreathers, and completely suit
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: up just to go in there and to retrieve those
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: bodies because if they had stayed in there, it would
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: have killed them too. That's what he introduced everybody in
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: that area too. So you can't anticipate what is going
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: to happen. You have to prepare for it, you know,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: and try to understand that. You know, when you you
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: see a case like this and you think, well, how
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: am I ever going to get to the point where
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be up and running and functioning as
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: an independent investigator out in the field, all of these
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: things come flooding in and I can promise you don't
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: think that lightning is going to strike. You don't think
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: it's going to happen, And buddy, it happens. It's it's
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: going to be delivered to your doorstep. Even in the
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: most isolated places.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, think about every blade of grass. It's a
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: potential source of DNA or evidence. And there you are
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: looking at an oil field and you have to process
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: the scene.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I find that to be the most difficult scene
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: is the outdoor scene. It is I mean from your perspective,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: it is that.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: And Dave and I were actually recently talking about this jeez,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: what's his name, the little boy Simon that we just
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: taped on the other day and out of Savannah, out
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: of Savannah, Georgia, and you know the mama had thrown
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: him away. Well, he wound up in landfill down there
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: in Chatham County. And those let me tell you something,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: kudos to those police officers and FBI. They went in
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: there and removed all that garbage landfill. It's the worst
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: cases you can work.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, They're so hard to do.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Hard to do, yeah, absolutely, and so it will. Absolutely
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: it's soul crushing sometimes when you look back, it's like
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: looking for a needle in a stack of needles.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Hold on, I just posted a picture. I mean, for
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: anybody listening right now. Joe Scott says, Hey, guys, surprise
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: for you. I'ment Oh goodie, what could it be? I
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: come here, I said, is it me sitting down and
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: doing your show for you? And he goes, yeah, you ready, Dave? Okay,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: So I posted his picture. Cheryl McCollum has already spotted
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: and said this is yes man.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Hey, Cheryl, shout out to you. We're glad to have
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace here join us at Jacksonville State University here
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: at the Ramona Wood Hall, which is now home to
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: criminal justice and forensic investigations. It's something we're going to
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: do kind of a tour show Nancy around today, but
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: just some of the elements here.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: I talk about one more case. Yeah, absolutely, jdi Arius okay,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: can I tell you why? Jodi Aris? Okay? Obviously the
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: bathroom was important where Jody Arias stabbed Travis Alexander all
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: because they have been dating. They broke up because she's
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: crazy and a wack adoodle. Not in the legal sense.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I think. If I have to listen to that woman
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: singer Christmas Carrol, you know I'll play that.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Every time we cover it. I have to hear, oh
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: holy not. Make sure she can still hit the high note.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: America's got talent behind bars. So obviously where she killed
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: him in the bathroom and outside the bathroom are the
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: critical areas. But leave no stone unturned because what's in
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: the washer? Idiot left her digital camera in the sheets
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: she took off the bed, which were covered in DNA,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: and the digiKam is in the washer. And what's on
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: the didg you cam a picture of her foot during
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: the murder and wearing pants that were found in her
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: dresser drawers? I mean, how can you fight her foot
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: is near the body?
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and for so long, you know, because that's act
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: to look in the washer. That's actually the first case
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: that you and I covered to go really yeah, going
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: back back to then, you mean after.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: I hung up on you.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, after you hung up when you were at HLN.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: This is a long after that. Uh and and so
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: that and uh In Trevon Martin. Those were the two
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: that we were covering. But anyway, with Jody Arias, that
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: was fascinating because you know, evil, pure evil, and.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: Plus you shot a burden at me in the courtroom,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: so you know it's personal.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is personal. Well, it sounds like it's personal
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: because she's got all these people that are after.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Her for mess. Okay, I am not interested in another
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: man good, I raised one. I don't want to raise
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: another one.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you though, with with Jody Arius
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: uh so much time had a lase between the time
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: that she murdered Travis and the time he was found,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: and we find ourselves in these positions as death investigators
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: many times. I still remember those photos from the crimes
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: in Nancy. I know you remember them, and from the
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: autopsy too. He was in a moderate state to advanced
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: state of decomposition by the time. And so one of
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: the things that we have to teach our students, and
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: one of the things I work on here at Jacksonville
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: State is walking through post mortem changes and just those
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: base elements that a lot of people don't think about,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: but when we're trying to establish time for people to understand,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: particularly from your perspective as a prosecutor, time is one
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: of those elements that might be one of the most
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: important points along the continuum of the investigation because if
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: you don't.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Have a time frame, yes, I need a tod.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely the.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Whole thing because with the correct time of death, I
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: can rule people in and out very quickly. If I
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: have the wrong time of death, I'm.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Screwed right, And we've got a couple of times associated
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: with death. And just so folks understand, you have time
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: of death, which is an actual scientific or semi scientific.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: People think we can do it, like we can get
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: it down to the minute. We can't. That's a fallacy.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: And then you have time pronouncement, and that's a legal
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: thing that's like you know they're dead forever and ever, Amen,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: they're pronounced dead. Those are two separate things of time
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: of death. What Nancy's talking about here is all of
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: these elements when we're assessing riger mortis and libra mortis
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: and postmarnal avidity and stomach contents and all of these
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: changes that are taking place in the body. We have
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: to be able to again this idea, how do we
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: communicate that effectively to you as a scientist so that
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: you can utilize it because your job is not to
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: talk to the judge, not to talk to the defense attorney.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: But those twelve people in the box, how do you
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: communicate that to them? And what tools do you need
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: from the forendsic.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Science be strought back. So I remember being in court
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: every day for so long, and it would be like
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: a tennis match when I'd either be questioning the witness
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: and I look at the witness and look at the jury,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: look at the witness, look at the jury, look at
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: the witness, witness, witness jury, And when the witness would
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: be on cross with the other side, I look nowhere
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: but witness, jury, witness jury. To just say, it was
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: like nothing else existed, and I would be so extremely
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: irritated when the judge would suddenly, usually a man, no offense,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: gentleman would jump in and say something like what what
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: what do you want?
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Right? Right?
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: So it's so important, you know, how you communicate this
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: to a jury.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: How how would if if you had a perfect forensic
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: witness on the stand, what would be your preference as
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: far as let's start off with level of detail and
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: how how to effectively communicate. I know that's very broad,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: and I apology for that. But if we're if we're
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: forensic practitioners and we're trying to explain one of these complicated,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: complex scientific constructs about the mechanism of death and all
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: of this, it's hard for us many times to rain
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: ourselves in all right, And I can, and I do
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: this with you on the air. I know that you're
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: doing it with me, because your brain is like screening.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: Get to the point, get to the point, get to
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: the point, and that's hard for us to do. And
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: to have an effective witness in the forensic round. For you,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: what are you looking for for that person to be
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: able to communicate somebody you've called to the stand that's
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: going to be testifying for the prosecution.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Number one, I would never put up a witness cald Okay,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: I would have gone through I always wrote out my hand,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: not a computer. Yeah, hand written questions that I would
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: go through with the medical examiner after I had gone
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: through his or her report line for line. Yeah. I
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: think the best thing to do when it comes to
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: medical examiners is the district attorney should stand right with
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: the jury with the report in your hand, true, and
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: go through it line by line first, ask general questions
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: and then let the medical examiner cannot help himself herself,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: they have to expound. Yeah, So it's like asking a
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: lawyer to be brief. So in that vein you got
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: to let them go, but you will have to interrupt
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: quite often to clarify.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and to get you know, get to the point.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I found it fascinating. I'm glad you mentioned Ellen's case,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Ellen green Burk's case. That autopsy report, which you and
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: I have both reviewed. A lot of that stuff is
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: what we refer to as boilerplate. You go in there
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: and some of those things and just here's a big
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: industry secret in case people aren't aware of this. Lots
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: of times when and I've heard them say this, forendship
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: pathologists will say they're talking, they're they're taping right, dicta dictating,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: and they'll say standard documentation, standard documentation. And what that
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: means is that each one of the sections that's actually
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: their boilerplate statement, and the person that's typing this thing up,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: it's going to be the standard. You can look at
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: these reports and they all look the same until they
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: get to the finer point stick.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: In the right height and way the way.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: That belongs to this and then you do injury descriptions.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: You said something really interesting just a few moments ago.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: I hope I'm not going to.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: Death come forward, But you said a different time of
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: death and the pronouncement of death. Because that autopsy, if
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: my memory starves me correctly, he put the time of death.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Ellen's time of death is when they filled out the
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: death certificate. I'm like, Okay, that's not her time of death. No,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: she died several hours before that. That's what I'm counting
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: on you to figure out. Man.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a scientific ape, didn't didn't he? Yeah, it
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: seems like it's something like that. But because I found it,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: I found it very It was so ridiculous, and you
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: you think about that, and you think about what and
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: maybe I don't know. I look at this now with
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg and I think, well, you know what, maybe
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: and this loops back to what we were saying. Maybe
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: they didn't see this coming. But baby, let me tell
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: you something. You've got to see it coming all the time.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: You don't know when you're going to walk into a scene.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: I was going to be reading that autopsy report going
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: this doesn't make any sense.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: And that we're going to be talking about it all
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: this time later. This poor beautiful young woman whose life
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: was literally ripped to shreds, and her parents now up
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: in their years and just the ongoing three o the house.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: It doesn't surprise me they had to sell their house
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: because they've sent their life savings about eight hundred thousand
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: dollars into fighting the suicide ruling.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking about Josh and Sandy the beautiful huh
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, and lovely people. How many times have we
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: been on the air with them over and over and
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: over again, talk to them and just trying to cancel
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: them from me.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Saying the same thing over and over. But I can't
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: get past that suicide. Really, twenty stabs to the back,
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: the neck, the back of the head.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: No, it doesn't make sense. And then you've got a
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: neuropathologist that's saying that, a neuropathologist that's actually was hired
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: by the Emmy's office there that actually made the comment,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: you know that post mortem, I don't see any kind
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: of injury here, So that can you imagine getting that
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: information as a parent. And then all of a sudden,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: it's like a glimmer of hope. Oh, they're saying that
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: there's a post mortem injury now that proves something to
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: us in their mind.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: That she didn't do it after she was dead exactly.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: So it's going to be I'm all in on following
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: the case. Continue to follow in the case.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: You asked me about three cases, Jody Arias, Chris Watts, and.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: One of your favorite cases of all.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, Scott Peterson.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to credit Dave with this because it
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: seems to be a pattern that is developing with this case.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Was he or I'm going to ask you, Nancy Grace question,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: yes or no? Was he or was he not on
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: death row? Nancy Grace?
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: And is he still on death row? No? Okay, So
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: if you follow that line of logic logic, it seems
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: like his life is gradually improving. Here. What are the odds?
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: What are the chances that they're going to be able
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: to find something after all these years? Because this thing
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: is cycled innocence.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: I just remembered something.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what's that?
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: I found a picture? Yeah that I forgot to work
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: into our program we taped today. I found a picture
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: of the inmates having a luau at Mill Creek Pen
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Dave Matt, Can you believe we did that? I am
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: so mad. I going to shoot my toe aluau for
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Pete's sake? A luau? I'm getting We're doing Scott Peterson again,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: so I can use that picture. Why is he I'm
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: not having a luau? Why is he having a luau?
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Why you luau? Okay, never mind, go ahead. What about
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: the crime scene well, I blame you, Dave Max.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that after all of these years, after
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: all these years, how in the world, because you know
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: they're talking about that, you.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Should really make this a simul cast because I'm watching
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: day It's hard.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: He's distracting, isn't it. He's a lovely man?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Okay? Now what about the claim.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: That they've encountered or recovered new evidence as a result
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: of this effort on the part of the Innocence Project and.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: The La Innocence Project.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: The La Innocence Project. And I'm just curious, what do
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: you what's the potential here for this case moving trial?
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: And this is what I think. The judges just made
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: two critical rulings. One she is allowing allowed, it's done.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: The con duct tape that was found on Lacey's body
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: has already been tested and the results are under seal.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Now let's think that through the duct tape on Lacey's body.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Is it duct tape that was placed on her body?
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Is it some other item that have you ever seen?
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Like those six pack what do you call those things?
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Get those things that hold them together floating in the water.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: I have that her body intersected without in the water.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: So any that that place is a cesspool. It's not
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: like it's crystal springs. No, it's all sorts of fisher people, gasoline, debris, waste,
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: all sorts of DNA is out there. So what could
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: be on that tape? Now, best case scenario in my world,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Scott Peterson's fingerprints would be that tape or his DNA
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: on the sticky side of the tape. Is that going
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: to happen? Probably not maybe, but any number of foreign
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: DNA debris cells are going to be on that tape.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: It was down at the bottom of San Francisco Bay
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: where she was weighted down with weights. Okay, that's already
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: been tested. The second thing the judge allowed is testing
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: as it relates to a burned out van that had
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: a mattress in it in the area that they think
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: was blood. It may not even be blood. And I
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: don't think it's going to relate back to Lacy Peterson. Well,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: you know, I was going to tell you the fear
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: they have all new discovery, which you know discovery is
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: the state turns over items that they are told to
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: by the law, such as scientific reports that would be
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: medical examiner, crime lab, ballistics, all that that's scientific reports,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: statements of witnesses, names and addresses and phone numbers if
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: you've got them of witnesses Brady versus Maryland. Evidence which
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: is evidence that tends to exonerate the defendant or help
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: the defendant in the sense that one of your witnesses
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: has changed their stories, something about one of your witnesses
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: that could help the defendant. All that has to be
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: given to them. Now what I think is going to happen.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: They've got wide discovery that occurred at the time of trial,
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: and they're going to see every avenue of investigation, which means,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: let's go back to Travis Alexander. Okay, first, I'm sure
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: they looked at the roommates. Yes, of course they looked
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: at the roommates. Did one of them do it? Now
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: they're going to see, aha, didn't you investigate Travis Alexander's
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: roommate because at one point you thought the roommate may
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: have done it? And the CoP's going to have to go,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: well yeah, and that's going to be spun out. Just
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: every person they investigated is going to be a specter
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: in this case. I think that's what's going on.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: So it's just going to be almost like total chaos.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: It's going to be unleashed. Yes, yeah, well, I don't know.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people I think it at minimum.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Do you think that he'll be granted a new trial.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: I think it's possible.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: However, if discovery is relegated to the new scientific testing. No,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I do not think that what's found in that van
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: is going to help the defense in any way. The
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: only way the duct tape found on her body could
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: help the defense is it may show some other debris. Yeah,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: that occurred in the water met as you say, intersected
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: with the tape in the water. What they can do
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: with that, I don't know.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going to be really hard. And here's the
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: other thing, because I know you've spent a lot of
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: time in evidence rooms over the years, and if there
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: is still any any retained evidence from this case, because
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: this case has been previously disposed of.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: I told you about the case. Yeah, how'd this go,
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: mister Slayton.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my boss, mister Slayton.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Now I remember great great DNA, great great district attorney.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Excuse me, call me to his office and he says,
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: we got a reversal. Nancy, I'm okay, And I thought Oh,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: dear lord, Plea said, don't let it be one of
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: my kidses had got to be retried.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: It was not.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: It was the case. It was actually tried when I
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: was in law school, and it went all the way
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: up to the Fifth Circuit, one step below the US
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court. And I can't believe the prosecutor did this.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: And I know him, and he's a really good prosecutor.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: He had he tried both defendants at the same time,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: and they had interlocking statements, like they pointed the finger
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: at each other. That's disallowable under the US Constitution, because
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: what if say, you and I rob a bank and
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: we shoot somebody in my statement, I go, Joe Scott
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: did it that idiot? You go, Nancy Grace did it
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: that idiot? If we both come to child together and
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: both the first statements come in and you don't take
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: the stand, I can't cross examine that statement. And the
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: defendant under the sixth Amendment has a full right to
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: cross examine all witnesses against him. Oh see what I mean?
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: So interlocking statements. No, they brought in interlocking statements. That
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: was the reversible error. So I got one of the
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: defendants to retry I go to the crime scene, I mean,
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: excuse me, I go the evidence locker. Yeah, there was
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: one X ray it was not of my murder victim,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: who was the little brother of an Atlanta PD. Okay,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: so you can screw this up. And a baseball hat
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: that said kiss my bass. I'm like, what do these
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: two pieces of evidence have to do with this case?
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: That's the physical evidence that was left. That was it.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know when we're training people to be
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: even an occupation called evidence custodians, you know they are
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: in charge and they controlled the infamous chain that we
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: all mad. Oh yeah, you really could, and all the
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: little potholes along the way that you can run a
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: foul of you over and over again. And it's not
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: just physically securing the evidence, but how do you document
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: security of that evidence? And here's the other thing, when
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: do you know to dispose of evidence? Because if you
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: look at a Scott Peterson case, everybody thought that that
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: thing was over done and done. Oh my god, if
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: they call out for.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: More in custody, can't stress enough? Yeah, okay, another story.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: I'll try to be brief. I had a serial killer.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: I could get him on one murder. One I needed
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: his DNA. We got his DNA. We chanced to the
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: crime lab. It matched, okay to what I wanted. It
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: wasn't DNA from this scene, but it was DNA some
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: other item, but I still needed it. The APD homicide
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: detective had just lost his wife and he forgot to sign. Oh,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: dear Lord and heaven now where you know? He took
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: the guys DNA. He put it in a sealed envelope.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: He took it to the crime lab. That person that
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: accepted it signed it. But this was like a week
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: before trial, and I saw his signature was not on
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: the envelope. So my chain was broken. I went back
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: to that lab and to the jail that day, and
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: I stood and watched through a glass window the jail
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: nurse take his DNA. I had her sign it, didn't
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: touch it. I watched her give it to my investigator,
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: and we drove it to the crime lab and retested it.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, a serial.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Fact, the fact that you were able to But you know,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: you think about that, and here's stuff that will keep
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: you up late at night. It does me at least,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: What did I miss? Is there something along the way
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: throughout my career and I know that I have. I
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: know that I have over the course of the years,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I probably out of all the cases I worked in
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: New Orleans and Atlanta, and they were homicides. I often think,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: you know those homicides in particular, was there a serial
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: perpetrator that was involved in this? And probably something that
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: I missed along the way or my colleagues missed something
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: we didn't pick up in But I'm saying all this
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: to make the point that you never can predict the future.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: The only thing you can do is truly when it
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: comes to the field of forensics. And I would say,
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: I would say in the law as well, you have
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: to be prepared, and you do, and as rude as
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: it is, you have to expect the worst.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: You another difficult crime saying what's up an arson?
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Saying yes it is, it is, And the reason it's
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: very you have to. And the thing that I take
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: exception to is that many people, I think, for whatever reason,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: they don't include arson investigators among those of us that
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: are forensic investigators. Many times, and I submit that arson
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: investigators are the most skilled forensic investigators that are out there.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: It is and when you walk into a.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: Scene that I developed an expertise in arson.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to it is it's very difficult
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: because when you go out to one of these scenes, Nancy,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: even if there's a dead body there, everything looks the same.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: It's all charred. It's all either charcoal color or darker
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: charcoal color. All you can make out of shapes and forms.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: And these people are amazing that work because they can
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: see things that we know. Our dog yeah, yeah, I
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: sure have so amazing. Yeah, to check out to see
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: if there's any accelerants at the scene and the things
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: that they.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Can find smell accelerant underwater.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they can. They can actually Cadaver dogs allegedly can
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: smell cadavers.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: And I meant to ask them. We actually had John
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: Buehler on today, who worked with bro Kinney on the
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Scott Peterson case. Investigator. I meant to ask him about
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: the scent dog because I'm pretty sure in Lacy Peterson's case,
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: a dog tracked her from Covena where the house was.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: I thought that I'd heard that.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: I was all the way to the marina, the boat launch,
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: and then along the tree line and then out to
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: the edge of the water and it stopped. That's amazing.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: It truly is because their spectrum that they're on the
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: dogs watching a dog. I know, it's amazing.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: That's witness I ever had I heard that dog?
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they're.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Not can't do much with him on cross examination.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: No you can't. But you know, I've seen forensic pathologists
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: who can't do much of it on cross examination either.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so with in and you know, and there's
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: so many different areas that we that we cover in forensics,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: and I think that one of the things that that's
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: very curious anytime somebody says, anytime somebody says, well what
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: do you do and you say, well, I'm a forensic scientist,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: the next the next question should be, well what kind
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: of forensic scientist are you? Because it's like, if you
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: have a broken leg, you're not going to see a psychiatrist,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: hopefully you can go to an orthopedic surgeon. Well, if
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: you're a forensic scientist, you have to state and understand
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: who you are. And that's the biggest thing. There's a
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: lot of people that believe that they are that they
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: are in fact an expert in every field. And that's
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: you know, when you watch television, for instance, that's one
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: of the biggest disparities. They will take one person and
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: make them an expert in multiple fields. And I know
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: you've run across this, Nancy, because so many people.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: You maybe remember something funny. People always come up to
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: me and want me to write a will for them.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I might listen, either get killed or kill somebody, then
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: come talk to make goodbye.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: I know precisely what dark thing about a will. However,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: you are constitutional experts, so I'll go with you on that.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: If I have constitutional questions.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Will like three in my life, they were always like extremes.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: They worked out.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, I was hoping after this taping, could you help
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: me establish an LLC. Well, look, Nancy, we're gonna shut
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: it down.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: Don't we have a ribbon cut? Yeah?
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: We do. Oh look there you go, Nancy. It has
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: been just a pure joy to have you here. And
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: actually this is our this is our first tape.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: I believe you got to go to Crime con UK.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: I know, isn't that something a little weasel? I love
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: being over there. I love going to UK and got
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: there is not there's not. I'd rather be, as they say,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: as I often say, I'd rather be Alabama comfortable than
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: La Rich any day. I love to be here. I
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: love to come home to my people here. But over there,
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: we're trying to establish relationships with universities at our kids
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: here in rural Alabama can go there and go study
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: because there ain't no there ain't no better teacher than
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: travel as far as I'm concerned. But we're going to
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: shut it down for the day. And I got to
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: tell you, Nancy, what I.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Build out jos Gotte Morgan again, never ends, never ends.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: D send me the build Nancy.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: Right, So coming Dave Matt, make me sound young and
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: glamorous and make him sound old and decrepit. Can you
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: do that? No?
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, let's close this thing out. Coming to
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: you live from Jacksonville State University, the Gem of the Hills.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: This is Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Backs.