Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #517 Jason Flom and John Grisham with Jamie Snow

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#517 Jason Flom and John Grisham with Jamie Snow · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: It was eight pm on Easter Sunday nineteen ninety one
0:06
Speaker 1: when a Bloomington, Illinois gas station was held up and
0:09
Speaker 1: the eighteen year old attendant, Bill Little, was fatally shot.
0:13
Speaker 1: The police made a composite sketch and questioned men in
0:16
Speaker 1: town with criminal records, including twenty five year old Jamie Snow,
0:21
Speaker 1: but neither the physical evidence nor the composite sketch were
0:25
Speaker 1: a match. Anyway, They approached Jamie again two years later
0:30
Speaker 1: and he was cleared by a polygraph. Then five years
0:35
Speaker 1: after that, almost eight years after the crime had taken place,
0:38
Speaker 1: two new detectives developed the theory involving Jamie Snow's then
0:42
Speaker 1: pregnant sister in law driving a getaway car. Rather than
0:48
Speaker 1: take a sweetheart deal to trade false testimony for freedom,
0:53
Speaker 1: she instead took a Sophie's choice and opted to give
0:56
Speaker 1: birth to her baby in jail and rolled it down
1:00
Speaker 1: on a trial that could have resulted in her spending
1:03
Speaker 1: the rest of her life in prison. All of this
1:06
Speaker 1: instead of agreeing to lie on the stand. Luckily, her
1:11
Speaker 1: attorney was able to expose the state's case for what
1:14
Speaker 1: it was and she was acquitted, While Jamie was not
1:17
Speaker 1: as fortunate. This is wrongful conviction. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction.
1:28
Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lava for
1:30
Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing
1:34
Speaker 1: to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back
1:45
Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction, where we've got a case out of
1:48
Speaker 1: Illinois that features numerous jailhouse niches and incentivized witnesses who
1:53
Speaker 1: are either coerced or threatened, whose testimonies have all either
1:58
Speaker 1: since been recanted or been proven to be false. We've
2:02
Speaker 1: got police testimony that refutes the state star witness. There
2:06
Speaker 1: was a ton of physical evidence in this case, but
2:08
Speaker 1: none of it matched the suspect. Jamie Snow our guest
2:11
Speaker 1: today who's calling in from an Illinois correction institution where
2:15
Speaker 1: he's been for almost a quarter of a century, and
2:17
Speaker 1: welcome to Ronful Conviction. All.
2:19
Speaker 2: I appreciate you guys given me a voice and joining him.
2:23
Speaker 1: One of his appellat attorneys from the Exoneration Project, Carl Leonard,
2:26
Speaker 1: welcome back. Thanks for having me and to help us
2:29
Speaker 1: tell this story. Today we have my friend, a legend
2:34
Speaker 1: in the innocence community. Sorry if I embarrass you. John,
2:36
Speaker 1: a guy who's written a few books in his life,
2:39
Speaker 1: including the most recent one, his second non fiction book, Framed,
2:42
Speaker 1: number one of the bestseller lists, which profiles numerous cases
2:46
Speaker 1: of people who were framed and who were actually innocent.
2:49
Speaker 1: John is on the board of Centurion Ministries as well
2:51
Speaker 1: as the Innocence Project. And without further ado, John Grisham,
2:55
Speaker 1: Welcome to Ronful Conviction.
2:56
Speaker 3: Happy to be here. Jason. This case, You've got terrible
2:59
Speaker 3: police misconduct and took them eight years to make an arrest.
3:02
Speaker 3: You've got misconduct by the prosecutors, judges who are asleep,
3:06
Speaker 3: You've got jurors who are easily convinced. You've got a
3:09
Speaker 3: very innocent man who's now spent twenty four years in prison,
3:12
Speaker 3: and you've got a murder that will never be solved
3:14
Speaker 3: because the cops screwed up the case.
3:16
Speaker 1: But let's go back to before this case began, to
3:19
Speaker 1: Jamie's childhood in Bloomington, Illinois.
3:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, I grew up in Bloomington. I had a pretty
3:25
Speaker 2: decent childhood, went to a Christian school up to about
3:28
Speaker 2: seventh grade. My mom and dad were divorced, so they
3:31
Speaker 2: had a really good step dad. I never gave him
3:34
Speaker 2: the credit he deserved. Until I had already grown up
3:37
Speaker 2: and had kids of my own, and then I recognized
3:39
Speaker 2: the sacrifice that he had been making for me and
3:42
Speaker 2: my sister. But my mom developed cancer and died by
3:45
Speaker 2: the time I was seventeen, and that drew me off
3:47
Speaker 2: into a dark path. I guess, you know, I was
3:49
Speaker 2: acting out, doing a lot of dumb shit, eddy thefts
3:53
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. You know, I started running around
3:55
Speaker 2: with the wrong people. I mean, I never had any
3:58
Speaker 2: violence in my history, but it was the juvenile delinquent.
4:01
Speaker 1: Despite that pass, Jamie soon turned his energies toward fatherhood
4:05
Speaker 1: and had taxed kids with his wife, Tammy.
4:08
Speaker 2: My dad also died by the time I was twenty one,
4:10
Speaker 2: so I feel like I was plugging all them holes
4:14
Speaker 2: in my heart with my kids. You know, if I
4:16
Speaker 2: hadn't gotten arrested when I did, I'd have probably had
4:18
Speaker 2: a baseball team.
4:19
Speaker 1: And speaking of arrest, Jamie nearly got dragged into a
4:22
Speaker 1: different case just before this one, a February nineteen ninety
4:25
Speaker 1: one arm robbery that his friend had committed while they
4:28
Speaker 1: were out together with a larger group.
4:30
Speaker 2: Everybody that was in the car of the night that
4:32
Speaker 2: he did. Nobody knew what he was doing. It was
4:35
Speaker 2: my wife's birthday, February eighteenth, ninety one. The next day
4:39
Speaker 2: I got the newspaper and now went over and I
4:41
Speaker 2: asked him tell me that this wasn't you, and he
4:44
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, don't worry about it. You know, which
4:46
Speaker 2: you don't know won't hurt you. Obviously it can't hurt you.
4:50
Speaker 2: But the guy fled guilty to it and testified to
4:53
Speaker 2: the grand jury that he didn't give you the money
4:56
Speaker 2: up with anyone.
4:58
Speaker 1: And this guy was also an alternate respect for what
5:00
Speaker 1: had happened on Easter Sunday, March thirty first, nineteen ninety one,
5:04
Speaker 1: a little after eight pm, when an eighteen year old
5:06
Speaker 1: gas station attendant named Bill Little tried to stop an
5:09
Speaker 1: arm robbery and was fatally shot.
5:11
Speaker 4: Mister Little was killed while he was at work. It's
5:14
Speaker 4: a relatively small area behind the counter of that store.
5:18
Speaker 4: The stool that he would sit on was knocked over.
5:21
Speaker 4: There was a fair amount of blood. By all accounts,
5:24
Speaker 4: there was some sort of a scuffle here. The scene
5:26
Speaker 4: reflects that mister Little had previously said if someone tries
5:30
Speaker 4: to rob the store, he will fight them, and there
5:32
Speaker 4: were fingerprints that were recovered some of the fingerprints are
5:36
Speaker 4: Bill Little's, which one would expect, and there are unknown
5:41
Speaker 4: fingerprints that have never been identified at all. None of
5:44
Speaker 4: the fingerprints have ever been matched to Jamie. There was
5:47
Speaker 4: never any physical evidence tying Jamie to this, and.
5:50
Speaker 1: With DNA testing in a more primitive state, they didn't
5:53
Speaker 1: test from multiple contributors to the crime scene, blood or
5:56
Speaker 1: DNA on the bullet casings or Bill Little's close now.
5:59
Speaker 1: First officers on the scene, Paul Williams and Jeff Pilow,
6:02
Speaker 1: were responding to a silent alarm and they saw a
6:06
Speaker 1: young man named Danny Martinez filling up his tires on
6:09
Speaker 1: the east side of the gas station lot. Martinez later
6:12
Speaker 1: claimed that when he finished with his tires, he walked
6:14
Speaker 1: toward the office and saw someone backing out of the door.
6:17
Speaker 1: Then he heard two pops and turned back to his car,
6:20
Speaker 1: thinking that it backfired, and when he turned back around,
6:24
Speaker 1: he claimed that he found himself face to face with
6:27
Speaker 1: the assailant.
6:28
Speaker 4: Bloomington police officer responded to the scene was observing the
6:32
Speaker 4: goings on at the store before entering, saw Danny Martinez
6:36
Speaker 4: and saw Danny Martinez leaf and is absolutely certain that
6:41
Speaker 4: Danny Martinez never encountered anybody leaving the store.
6:45
Speaker 1: While this officer Jeff Pilo and his partner Paul Williams,
6:47
Speaker 1: said as much in the tape recorded interview, more attention
6:50
Speaker 1: was paid to Martinez a statement in which he described
6:53
Speaker 1: someone wearing a zipped up waistlength coat and a ball cap,
6:56
Speaker 1: standing five foot seven. I'll remember Jamie six' to one
7:00
Speaker 1: was also wearing a cast on his arm at the,
7:02
Speaker 1: time and none of the eyewitnesses mentioned a, cast including
7:06
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old, Neighbor Carlos, luna who lived about
7:09
Speaker 1: two hundred feet down the street to the, east who
7:11
Speaker 1: had claimed to have seen the assailant leaving the, scene but,
7:14
Speaker 1: strangely he didn't see the cops Or Danny.
7:18
Speaker 2: Martinez if you look at the layout of the station
7:22
Speaker 2: and where the air pump, Was Carlos luna would have
7:25
Speaker 2: had to look straight Through martinez Car Danny martinez described
7:29
Speaker 2: seeing somebody come out of the store with his coat
7:32
Speaker 2: zipped all the way, up backing out of the store
7:34
Speaker 2: like he was leaning into the door with his hands
7:37
Speaker 2: in his, pocket And Carlos luna described someone coming out fay,
7:41
Speaker 2: forward opening the door with his left, hand wearing a
7:44
Speaker 2: coat all the way down to his. Ankles just the
7:47
Speaker 2: way this person exited the building tells you that they
7:50
Speaker 2: did not see the same, person.
7:52
Speaker 1: So luna must have been looking out of his window
7:55
Speaker 1: at a different. Time and then there's an alleged third eye,
7:58
Speaker 1: Witness Gerardo, gutierrez who claimed that he had put three
8:01
Speaker 1: dollars worth of gas in his. Car now remember this
8:04
Speaker 1: was nineteen ninety.
8:04
Speaker 4: One he's the person who says that he had gone
8:07
Speaker 4: into the store and paid for his, gas and that
8:10
Speaker 4: there was Attendant Bill little and somebody else who looked
8:15
Speaker 4: shifty or.
8:15
Speaker 2: Something he described a one inch scar on his chin
8:20
Speaker 2: that was so fresh you could still see the holes
8:22
Speaker 2: from the, stitches and he had an ear ring in his,
8:25
Speaker 2: ear AND i don't have a scar on my chin
8:28
Speaker 2: or earring in my.
8:29
Speaker 1: Ear gutierrez added that the man was six foot two
8:32
Speaker 1: with shoulder length blonde or brown, hair wore a motorcycle,
8:36
Speaker 1: jacket and lit up a cigarette in the. Office, again
8:40
Speaker 1: it was nineteen ninety, one and he said that after,
8:42
Speaker 1: paying he went home and returned when he heard about the.
8:45
Speaker 1: Shooting so it appears that all three witnesses made differing
8:49
Speaker 1: observations at what had to have been different. Times either,
8:53
Speaker 1: way they were brought in to make.
8:54
Speaker 4: STATEMENTS a police department sketch artist met with the three.
8:58
Speaker 4: Witnesses the sketch artists said that he spoke To luna
9:02
Speaker 4: and that there just wasn't enough information there to even
9:04
Speaker 4: make a. Sketch the composite sketch was based on descriptions
9:08
Speaker 4: provided By martinez And, gutierrez.
9:11
Speaker 1: Who described different, heights different. Coats neither of them mentioned a.
9:16
Speaker 1: Cast martinez said there was a ball, Cap gutieri said long,
9:20
Speaker 1: hair a fresh, scar and an. Earring and likely since
9:23
Speaker 1: the first responders didn't see Who martinez allegedly, saw they
9:26
Speaker 1: chose The gutierrez composite to publicize along with a, reward
9:31
Speaker 1: and we know how that can. Go, meanwhile both were
9:34
Speaker 1: showing books of.
9:35
Speaker 2: Mugshots well the night of the, Crime martinez picked out
9:38
Speaker 2: two guys and there were people that he. Knew one
9:40
Speaker 2: of them was the same guy That gutierras had picked.
9:43
Speaker 2: Out and what we didn't, know and we just found
9:46
Speaker 2: out when they turned over these thousands and thousands of
9:49
Speaker 2: pages of documents that they was held from us for twenty,
9:52
Speaker 2: years was that the dude that they had picked out
9:55
Speaker 2: was a suspect in an earlier robbery a month earlier
9:59
Speaker 2: at the same.
9:59
Speaker 1: Cast that Was Charles. Renfrold the other guy Was steve
10:03
Speaker 1: Van note and who knows why they were cleared or
10:07
Speaker 1: if either of these witnesses had seen the actual. Assailant,
10:09
Speaker 1: meanwhile a kid Named Randy howard was seeking the reward
10:12
Speaker 1: money related to The february eighteenth armed, robbery and he Named,
10:16
Speaker 1: jamie who was then.
10:17
Speaker 2: Arrested when they came to pick me, up one of
10:20
Speaker 2: the detectors walked up and he looked at my, chin
10:23
Speaker 2: looked at my ears or to See i've had a
10:25
Speaker 2: scar on my chin.
10:26
Speaker 1: Or ear brings in my, ear which he did. Not
10:29
Speaker 1: and While jamie was questioned about This february eighteenth robbery
10:32
Speaker 1: that he also had nothing to do, with they began
10:34
Speaker 1: asking About march thirty, first nineteen ninety, one.
10:37
Speaker 2: The night that had. Happened it Was Easter, sunday spent
10:40
Speaker 2: the day with her family when the crime, happened though
10:43
Speaker 2: at eight o'clock at, night we were sitting in the.
10:45
Speaker 2: House worst place in the world you can ever be
10:48
Speaker 2: is in the safety and security of your own. Home
10:50
Speaker 2: if someone wants to try to put a case on.
10:53
Speaker 1: You so they asked him to appear in a.
10:55
Speaker 2: Lineup originally it had agreed to stand in the lineup
10:58
Speaker 2: in my attorney at the time came to me and was,
11:00
Speaker 2: like the prisons are full of guys that have been wrongfully.
11:05
Speaker 2: Identified and he, said my, advice you just don't do.
11:07
Speaker 2: It AND i WISH i would have just did, it
11:10
Speaker 2: because the fact THAT i didn't want to do it
11:12
Speaker 2: was something that they used against me WHEN i went to.
11:14
Speaker 1: Trial so, meanwhile in addition to the publicized, reward there's
11:18
Speaker 1: the unspoken one among those facing their own. Charges and
11:23
Speaker 1: one of the first false statements may have stemmed from
11:25
Speaker 1: an encounter Between jamie and a guy Named Ed.
11:27
Speaker 2: PALOMBO i knew that him and this other guy had
11:31
Speaker 2: been out to an armed robbery and he had passed
11:33
Speaker 2: me on the. Street you, KNOW i was just being
11:36
Speaker 2: smart about, it you, KNOW i was just, like you,
11:38
Speaker 2: KNOW i read about in the paper to what. Happened
11:41
Speaker 2: it wouldn't give you the, money and he gave me
11:43
Speaker 2: a really weird. Look he drove.
11:45
Speaker 1: Off at this Point ed's, Girlfriend shannon was in the
11:48
Speaker 1: passenger seat and initially came. Forward at the end Of
11:51
Speaker 1: april nineteen ninety, one perhaps to cash in on the
11:54
Speaker 1: reward while helping Out ed with some unrelated armed robbery. Charges,
11:58
Speaker 1: together they flipped the narrative of this drive by, encounter
12:01
Speaker 1: With jamie.
12:03
Speaker 2: That he had passed me on the street and THAT
12:06
Speaker 2: i had told him did you read about me in the?
12:08
Speaker 2: Paper the gun went off or something and he died
12:12
Speaker 2: from along the. LINE i think that he was trying
12:15
Speaker 2: to get out of the trouble that he was. In
12:17
Speaker 2: he was able to get the cocharg TO.
12:19
Speaker 1: VIP ed had also Named jamie in four other, robberies
12:22
Speaker 1: including the one to Which ed had, confessed and maybe
12:25
Speaker 1: to try to corroborate this highly motivated, Witness jamie was
12:29
Speaker 1: again asked to stand for a live, lineup and he
12:32
Speaker 1: finally agreed In may nineteen ninety. One, strangely, though they
12:36
Speaker 1: called In Carlos, luna who couldn't even describe the assailant
12:40
Speaker 1: to the sketch.
12:41
Speaker 4: Artist When luna viewed the, lineup he said that he
12:44
Speaker 4: tried to imagine each of these people doing, it and
12:47
Speaker 4: that he tried to find the person who looked closest to,
12:49
Speaker 4: it and that there were a few who might have
12:51
Speaker 4: been the person that he says he. Saw he's later
12:55
Speaker 4: given an affidavit saying that he assumed that the police
13:00
Speaker 4: had the guy and put him in the, lineup and
13:02
Speaker 4: so he believed his job was to pick out the
13:04
Speaker 4: person from the menu of options who'd best fit what he,
13:08
Speaker 4: remembered which he based on what he said was the
13:11
Speaker 4: shape Of jamie's face and the shape of his.
13:13
Speaker 1: Hair and they knew from the distance To luna's house
13:17
Speaker 1: from the gas station that this was not a reliable.
13:19
Speaker 1: Id they needed Good tiers Or, martinez both of whom
13:24
Speaker 1: had already passed Over jamie in photo arrays and the live.
13:29
Speaker 2: Lineup AFTER i did his lineup and my lawyer came
13:32
Speaker 2: in there and, said, okay, man you're. GOOD i thought
13:34
Speaker 2: that was. IT i turned the page on, it, man
13:36
Speaker 2: AND i forgot all about. It my in laws were
13:40
Speaker 2: moving To. Florida they had friends that lived down. There
13:42
Speaker 2: so and that was in ninety one when we first
13:45
Speaker 2: moved down.
13:45
Speaker 1: There as the investigation plotted, on witnesses with ulterior motives
13:49
Speaker 1: continuously came, forward like a guy Named Steve, shiel who
13:52
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one was looking for reward, money and
13:55
Speaker 1: he said That jamie had confessed to a woman Named Molly,
13:59
Speaker 1: feaster and Then shield was arrested on unrelated charges and
14:03
Speaker 1: Said jamie had confessed to him while at a party
14:07
Speaker 1: At Molly feaster's, house who they tracked down in nineteen ninety.
14:10
Speaker 2: Three she originally, SAID i haven't Seen jamie in five
14:14
Speaker 2: to six seven years or something like, that you, Know
14:16
Speaker 2: and this was in like ninety, three so it would
14:18
Speaker 2: have put it way before ninety. One and she's, LIKE
14:21
Speaker 2: i don't even know if i'd recognize him IF i
14:23
Speaker 2: saw him, again.
14:24
Speaker 1: So that thereby Discredited shiel for. Now, Meanwhile gutierres had
14:30
Speaker 1: always said that he bought three dollars worth of gas
14:32
Speaker 1: around eight, pm but the only three dollars purchase in
14:35
Speaker 1: the register was at six fifty FIVE. Pm but when,
14:38
Speaker 1: Confronted gutierrez changed his. Story he said that after seeing
14:41
Speaker 1: the person and paying for gas at six fifty five,
14:44
Speaker 1: pm he met with a friend and then stopped in
14:46
Speaker 1: again when he saw the cop cars at the gas
14:48
Speaker 1: station on his way. Home so two years into this,
14:51
Speaker 1: saga his composite was scrapped and they switched to The
14:55
Speaker 1: martinez composite with the ball, cap which described an assailant
14:59
Speaker 1: that the first responders should have, seen but simply did.
15:02
Speaker 2: Not and he have said something, like AS i was
15:06
Speaker 2: pulling in the, LOT i saw somebody coming. Out that
15:08
Speaker 2: would have. Flew but for him to say that while
15:11
Speaker 2: he was down putting air in his tires he saw
15:13
Speaker 2: someone coming out of the gas, station that doesn't, fly
15:16
Speaker 2: because at that point you've Got Paul williams watching the,
15:20
Speaker 2: door and you've Got Jeff peeble Watching Danny. Martinez that
15:23
Speaker 2: couldn't have.
15:23
Speaker 1: Happened so in nineteen ninety, three this new fraudulent composite
15:26
Speaker 1: was floating around And jamie came back To illinois From
15:29
Speaker 1: florida when he was approached again by Lead Detective Charlie.
15:32
Speaker 2: CROWE i had a traffic ticket one day AND i
15:35
Speaker 2: came out The law And Justice center In bloommeton And
15:38
Speaker 2: charlie crow was standing there waiting for, me and he's, like,
15:41
Speaker 2: man can we go and sit down and? Talk and
15:43
Speaker 2: me and him said at a picnic table for a good.
15:45
Speaker 2: Hour he's, like, well why would people say that you
15:48
Speaker 2: know you visit or that you know who did it or?
15:50
Speaker 2: Whatever And i'm, like where are they?
15:51
Speaker 4: At?
15:51
Speaker 2: Man are they in? Jail and he, said, yeah you,
15:53
Speaker 2: know some of them are in. JAIL i said that
15:54
Speaker 2: answers the question right. There and he was just, like
15:57
Speaker 2: why don't you take this polygraph so we can ruin you,
15:59
Speaker 2: in going to rule you.
16:00
Speaker 1: Out now we know how polygraphs can be unreliable and,
16:03
Speaker 1: misused But jamie was desperate to prove his.
16:06
Speaker 2: Innocence WHEN i passed the, POLYGRAPH i, said now do
16:10
Speaker 2: you believe? Me he, Said i've never thought that he did.
16:12
Speaker 2: IT i just think you might know who did. It
16:14
Speaker 2: AND i, said, man IF i knew who did, IT
16:17
Speaker 2: i promise YOU i would tell you THEN i WOULD
16:20
Speaker 2: i wouldn't be doing life for somebody. ELSE i can
16:24
Speaker 2: promise you. That the ninety four we ended up moving
16:42
Speaker 2: back To florida AND i was doing tree. WORK i
16:45
Speaker 2: had a plan AND i was going to build the
16:47
Speaker 2: best tree service In Canola's. COUNTY i was living my
16:50
Speaker 2: best life ever down. THERE i couldn't believe THAT i
16:53
Speaker 2: could make so much money AS i was. Making life
16:56
Speaker 2: was really, good he really.
16:57
Speaker 1: Was and that's how it went for three long years
17:01
Speaker 1: With Charlie crowe at The, helm but his Underlings Dan
17:04
Speaker 1: katz And Rick barkas were out trying to Save gutierrez
17:07
Speaker 1: as a willing, eyewitness and they found a man facing
17:10
Speaker 1: his fourth or FIFTH dui Named Bruce, rowland who had
17:13
Speaker 1: never Met, jamie but said That jamie had confessed to,
17:16
Speaker 1: him saying that he had been at the gas station
17:18
Speaker 1: twice that, night the first time just before seven, pm
17:21
Speaker 1: on his way to a party hosted by a guy
17:23
Speaker 1: Named Brian.
17:24
Speaker 2: Whitmer bruce, SAID i recently went there to get some,
17:27
Speaker 2: cigarettes but THAT i didn't have any, money SO i
17:31
Speaker 2: left and went down to The whitmer house to a,
17:34
Speaker 2: party and THEN i went back to get some, CIGARETTES i,
17:38
Speaker 2: guess and that's WHEN i committed the. Crime and he
17:41
Speaker 2: said THAT i told HIM i got a couple of
17:43
Speaker 2: carts of cigarettes and there were no cigarettes. Missing but you,
17:47
Speaker 2: know the Whole Bruce rowland. Thing had they have done
17:50
Speaker 2: their due diligence before they tried to Get Bruce roland
17:53
Speaker 2: to create this story to cooperate, gutierres they would realize
17:57
Speaker 2: That Brian whitmer was in jail that, night was no
18:00
Speaker 2: party down the, street.
18:01
Speaker 1: Not to mention That jamie And brian had a falling
18:04
Speaker 1: out in nineteen eighty, eight and then to add doubt
18:07
Speaker 1: to an already dubious. Statement roland created a getaway driver
18:12
Speaker 1: out of thin. Air, remember no one had ever mentioned
18:15
Speaker 1: a getaway driver. Before and this alleged getaway driver was
18:19
Speaker 1: none other Than jamie's Friend mark, McGowan, who by the,
18:22
Speaker 1: way denied, it as did his Girlfriend. Karen and get,
18:25
Speaker 1: This mark didn't even have a.
18:27
Speaker 2: Car bruched the first one to Put mark's name into,
18:30
Speaker 2: it and then other people start putting his name into.
18:33
Speaker 2: It it's just like this rumor was going around town for, six, seven,
18:38
Speaker 2: eight nine years man and it morphed into what it.
18:41
Speaker 1: Was But Charlie crowd never bought. It so when he
18:44
Speaker 1: retired In june nineteen ninety, Seven marcus And katz went
18:47
Speaker 1: back to The roland, narrative but Since mark McGowan wouldn't,
18:51
Speaker 1: flip they replaced him With jamie's sister in, Law Susan.
18:54
Speaker 2: Claycombe at the, time my wife when she told me
18:58
Speaker 2: that they had Pulled Michael defending over In tennessee and
19:02
Speaker 2: had given her a subpoena to the grand jury because
19:05
Speaker 2: they think she was the one that was driving the.
19:07
Speaker 2: Car you, know we both laughed BECAUSE i don't think
19:10
Speaker 2: anybody would allow her to drive him somewhere unless it
19:12
Speaker 2: was like a kid and they had no. Choice but
19:14
Speaker 2: if you were an, adult you were not Let susan
19:16
Speaker 2: drive you.
19:16
Speaker 1: Anywhere but they'd found a friend of hers, Name Julie,
19:19
Speaker 1: knight who had a substance abuse issue and had lost
19:22
Speaker 1: custody of her, kids and she had agreed to cooperate
19:25
Speaker 1: in a number of, cases including this, one to get
19:28
Speaker 1: them back And john to add more insult to, Injury
19:32
Speaker 1: susan was pregnant at the.
19:34
Speaker 3: Time it smells to me like it's a very, awkward
19:38
Speaker 3: misguided effort by the police to find some other way
19:43
Speaker 3: to put pressure On. Jamie and we'll put pressure on.
19:46
Speaker 3: Her she's expecting a. Child all these factors go into,
19:49
Speaker 3: it and if it, works he's. Dead he's, Nailed.
19:52
Speaker 1: Okay at this, Point susan And jamie were arrested And
19:55
Speaker 1: susan Clay comb's defense, Investigator Martin, foster visited the, witnesses
19:59
Speaker 1: Including Dani, martinez who told him that he'd Seen jamie's
20:02
Speaker 1: picture in the paper and that he was not the.
20:04
Speaker 1: Assailant so the prosecutor's office went to meet with this
20:08
Speaker 1: defense witness as well as to Offer susan a deal
20:11
Speaker 1: which she courageously.
20:13
Speaker 2: Refused they offered her, probation they told her that they
20:17
Speaker 2: to charge it against. HER i mean they pressured her
20:21
Speaker 2: for a year and a half to try to get
20:24
Speaker 2: her to testify AGAINST i, MEAN i wish you could
20:25
Speaker 2: talk to, her, MAN i wish you could have met.
20:27
Speaker 2: Her she's probably the strongest Person i've ever.
20:31
Speaker 1: Known she's a bona fide. Hero she gave birth in
20:35
Speaker 1: jail while facing her own. Trial incredible, woman all of
20:41
Speaker 1: this to stand up for the. Truth and may she
20:44
Speaker 1: rest in.
20:44
Speaker 2: Peace AND i think once they realized That susan was
20:48
Speaker 2: not gonna play ball with, him that's When Danny martinez
20:51
Speaker 2: all of a sudden hit his Miraculous.
20:53
Speaker 4: Tiffany and now eight years, later When jamie is arrested
20:58
Speaker 4: and he Sees jamie's pick sure in the, paper now
21:01
Speaker 4: his memory is crystal clear that it Was. Jamie and
21:04
Speaker 4: now he will never forget those. Eyes even though right
21:07
Speaker 4: after the fact he was not able to Identify.
21:10
Speaker 2: JAMIE i know they Had Bill little's mom calling him
21:13
Speaker 2: on the phone and stuff like that before he ever
21:16
Speaker 2: made an.
21:16
Speaker 1: Identification Before susan's, trial her, Investigator Martin, foster Revisited martinez
21:22
Speaker 1: to ask why he'd completely switched his, story And martina,
21:25
Speaker 1: said it's my understanding that they have a lot of
21:27
Speaker 1: evidence against this, guy so he must be the right.
21:29
Speaker 1: Guy So martinez was called to the stand At susan's.
21:33
Speaker 4: Trial So Danny martinez says that he was at the
21:36
Speaker 4: station filling his tires and that he heard two bangs
21:43
Speaker 4: and then came face to face with somebody exiting the.
21:46
Speaker 4: Store that it Was Jamie snow who did.
21:49
Speaker 2: It he justified At susan's, Trial come about eighty five
21:53
Speaker 2: percent sure that's the.
21:54
Speaker 1: Guy susan's attorney put On Martin foster and some Of
21:57
Speaker 1: Danny martinez his coworkers who said That danny had told
22:00
Speaker 1: them That Jamie snow was not the. Assailant they also
22:03
Speaker 1: raised how he'd identified other people along the, way and
22:07
Speaker 1: Then Bruce rowland trotted out the theory that added the
22:10
Speaker 1: getaway driver and Made gutierres into a viable. Witness But
22:13
Speaker 1: gutierres was shredded by the defense over the time. Discrepancy
22:17
Speaker 1: and Then Julie, knight who testified at the grand jury
22:20
Speaker 1: and got her kids, back, well she didn't testify a,
22:23
Speaker 1: trial So susan was not ideed as a getaway, driver
22:26
Speaker 1: and none of the other witnesses even supported the existence of.
22:29
Speaker 4: One pilo did not see a getaway. Driver martinez did
22:32
Speaker 4: not testify about a getaway driver or ever say that
22:34
Speaker 4: he saw a getaway. Driver luna did not see a getaway.
22:37
Speaker 4: Driver so the story that they've concocted from these really incentivized,
22:43
Speaker 4: individuals none of the story matches the actual evidence or
22:46
Speaker 4: the evidence that the state's own witnesses put forward as
22:49
Speaker 4: to what they saw happen at the.
22:51
Speaker 1: Scene So susan was, acquitted Giving jamie's Attorney Frank, pissel
22:55
Speaker 1: at least a partial blueprint for success a. Trial in
22:58
Speaker 1: two thousand and, one there was a far longer list
23:01
Speaker 1: of jailhouse snitches and other incentivized witnesses that the detectives
23:04
Speaker 1: had accumulated over ten, years Which john it seems like
23:08
Speaker 1: leaning on these, witnesses these vulnerable, witnesses had to be
23:12
Speaker 1: the state's.
23:12
Speaker 3: Strategy when there's no physical evidence linking the defendant to the,
23:18
Speaker 3: crime no, video, nothing, nothing no physical, evidence no, fingerprints no,
23:24
Speaker 3: bootprints NO, dna no, bloodstains no. Nothing that's a huge
23:28
Speaker 3: red flag and that's where the prosecutor should stop right
23:31
Speaker 3: here at the very beginning to, say wait a, minute
23:33
Speaker 3: we don't have any. Evidence and that's where a really
23:35
Speaker 3: good criminal defense lawyer would tear up the prosecution's. Case
23:39
Speaker 3: you've got snitches on the witness stand, lying and they're
23:42
Speaker 3: also fun to attack when you're on cross, examination but
23:46
Speaker 3: not so much.
23:46
Speaker 1: Fun when there was no damn many of. Them There's Ed,
23:49
Speaker 1: Palumbo Ed, Hammond Ronnie, Wright Steve, Shield Kevin, Shall Jody,
23:54
Speaker 1: Winkler Bill, Moffatt Bruce, Rowland Bill, gattis And Bridget, logsdon
23:59
Speaker 1: all of whom that they were receiving nothing for their
24:02
Speaker 1: testimony and needed to be investigated and.
24:05
Speaker 4: IMPEACHED i Think jamie had a difficult opportunity to defend
24:09
Speaker 4: himself at trial for a couple of. Reasons, one he
24:12
Speaker 4: had a lawyer who just did not do what a
24:15
Speaker 4: defense lawyer is supposed to, do did not engage in
24:18
Speaker 4: the investigation that he could have engaged, in and did
24:20
Speaker 4: not Represent jamie the way that he should. Have but
24:23
Speaker 4: also whose hands were in some ways tied by the
24:26
Speaker 4: fact that the state withheld a ton of evidence from.
24:29
Speaker 4: Him so you had an ineffective lawyer with an insufficient
24:33
Speaker 4: amount of evidence that should have been disclosed to.
24:36
Speaker 1: Him and we'll start with a witness who had available impeachment,
24:39
Speaker 1: Evidence Randy, howard who initially stated that a few days
24:42
Speaker 1: after the crime that he had Called jamie for a
24:44
Speaker 1: ride And jamie. Confessed, now, One jamie didn't have a
24:48
Speaker 1: car or a phone at the, time and, Two randy
24:51
Speaker 1: was an habitual reward seeking tipster, who for five hundred
24:55
Speaker 1: dollars a week after this alleged, confession Misidentified jamie in
25:00
Speaker 1: The february eighteenth, robbery yet failed to cash in on
25:03
Speaker 1: what he allegedly knew about The march thirty first. Robbery
25:06
Speaker 1: it's highly Unlikely howard also threw in a tidbit That
25:11
Speaker 1: jamie would tuck his hair under a ball cap to disguise, himself.
25:15
Speaker 2: Which you know fits the composite. Drawing you know the
25:19
Speaker 2: guy was wearing a ball, cap.
25:20
Speaker 1: But when presented with his statement on the, Stand howard
25:23
Speaker 1: wouldn't commit to. It so even though his impeachment evidence was,
25:26
Speaker 1: available it wasn't raised next At. Palombo as we mentioned
25:31
Speaker 1: back in ninety, one he and his Girlfriend shannon twisted
25:34
Speaker 1: a real encounter With jamie into an alleged, confession And
25:37
Speaker 1: ed got some charges of his own. Dismissed. Well as trial,
25:40
Speaker 1: approached the girlfriend recanted and they Revisited, ed who was
25:44
Speaker 1: locked up for something, else and those old charges resurfaced
25:48
Speaker 1: he was in.
25:49
Speaker 2: PRISON i think they was basically, like, look, man you
25:52
Speaker 2: gave this, statement we're going to call. You if anything
25:56
Speaker 2: other than what you said in the, statement we're going
25:58
Speaker 2: to charge.
25:58
Speaker 1: You Ed palumbo has also since. Recanted and then There's Ed,
26:02
Speaker 1: hammond who claimed to have done time With palombo And,
26:05
Speaker 1: jamie not true by the, way and had also initially
26:08
Speaker 1: identified some guy Named Troy, mays but then as trial,
26:11
Speaker 1: approached he Named, jamie who was later revealed that he
26:14
Speaker 1: had gotten a deal on an armed robbery in exchange
26:17
Speaker 1: for his. Testimony next Up Steve. Schiel as we, mentioned
26:20
Speaker 1: he'd initially said in ninety one That jamie had confessed
26:23
Speaker 1: To Molly, feaster and, then when faced with his own
26:25
Speaker 1: charges in ninety, three he changed. It he Said jamie
26:28
Speaker 1: confessed to, him Not, molly at a party At Molly feaster's.
26:32
Speaker 4: House what we know now Is shiel had taken a
26:36
Speaker 4: polygraph and told the polygraph examiner That jamie never confessed to,
26:40
Speaker 4: him never said he did. It this also wasn't disclosed at.
26:44
Speaker 4: Trial of, course he testified That jamie did confess to.
26:47
Speaker 1: Him and then Came Molly, feaster who had originally said
26:50
Speaker 1: in ninety three that she hadn't Seen jamie since before
26:53
Speaker 1: the crime, happened but she changed her tune on the
26:56
Speaker 1: stand in two thousand and.
26:58
Speaker 2: One they put her on this and to Cooperate Steve.
27:02
Speaker 2: Shield her whole thing was just, that you, KNOW i
27:06
Speaker 2: was at the. Party we've talked to her husband since
27:08
Speaker 2: and he said there were never no parties and that
27:11
Speaker 2: he would have never Let Steve shield in the house.
27:12
Speaker 1: Anyway Steve shield also later, recanted saying that he'd made
27:16
Speaker 1: this statement for leniency in ninety, three but then as
27:20
Speaker 1: trial approached he was threatened with solitary confinement if he
27:23
Speaker 1: didn't testify. Accordingly Ronnie wright was another witness who, recanted
27:27
Speaker 1: saying that he'd made a statement Against jamie over at
27:30
Speaker 1: jailhouse gambling, dispute but that wasn't known at trial. Either
27:33
Speaker 1: and then there was two guys who Knew jamie And,
27:36
Speaker 1: Florida Kevin shaw And Jody, winkler who had initially said
27:39
Speaker 1: That jamie never discussed the crime with, them but, later
27:42
Speaker 1: when faced with their own, charges they agreed to testify for. Leniency,
27:45
Speaker 1: similarly there Was Bill moffatt who'd made a statement in
27:48
Speaker 1: ninety five when facing aggravated battery and then again in
27:52
Speaker 1: ninety eight when facing three counts of. Rape only those
27:55
Speaker 1: deals were never. Disclosed and we've already Mentioned Bruce, rowland
28:00
Speaker 1: who was facing his fourth or FIFTH dui and alleged
28:03
Speaker 1: That jamie had told him about this timeline that in
28:06
Speaker 1: turn Saved gutiera as a witness involving a six fifty
28:10
Speaker 1: five pm cigarette run followed By Brian whitmer's supposed party
28:14
Speaker 1: and the eight pm return to the gas station with
28:17
Speaker 1: a getaway.
28:17
Speaker 4: Driver roland had taken a polygraph about his story and
28:21
Speaker 4: the conclusion was that he was. Lying, nevertheless he went
28:24
Speaker 4: on the stand that wasn't disclosed to the.
28:26
Speaker 2: Defense Rick rowland couldn't even identify me in court state Tourney,
28:30
Speaker 2: anton you sign the, courtroom and he's looked at the
28:33
Speaker 2: thing when he's like the ile seam and she went
28:36
Speaker 2: over and stook right next to the. Table she got
28:38
Speaker 2: right here at this. Table he seen sitting, here and
28:40
Speaker 2: he looked me, like, NO i don't recognize him. Yet
28:43
Speaker 2: this is some dude That i've known all my life
28:46
Speaker 2: and would confess the murder to.
28:47
Speaker 1: Him as a REPEAT dui. Offender instead of a heftier,
28:51
Speaker 1: Sentence Bruce rowland received an even lighter sentence that ran
28:55
Speaker 1: concurrent with the time he was already, serving and to Rebutt,
28:58
Speaker 1: roland the defense Called Brian.
29:00
Speaker 2: Whitmer he just testified number, one he would have never
29:03
Speaker 2: had me to his house for a party because we weren't,
29:06
Speaker 2: friends and that the night that the crime, Happened brian
29:10
Speaker 2: was in.
29:10
Speaker 1: Jail, additionally before the state had swapped In Susan klaycombe
29:14
Speaker 1: as the getaway, Driver bruce had previously Named jamie's Friend Mark,
29:19
Speaker 1: dowen so years earlier they Approached mark's Girlfriend Karen strong
29:23
Speaker 1: before she married another.
29:25
Speaker 2: Guy in her first, statement she, said you, Know mark
29:28
Speaker 2: didn't have a, car so you, know if him And
29:30
Speaker 2: jamie wanted to hang, out they took off walking because
29:33
Speaker 2: they didn't have a. Ride and then she said that
29:35
Speaker 2: sometime in nineteen ninety, ONE i came to her house
29:38
Speaker 2: looking for a place to, stay and then when she
29:41
Speaker 2: came to, trial she changed that up to she remembered
29:45
Speaker 2: it was on the night of the. Crime it was
29:47
Speaker 2: between the hours of ten and, midnight AND i saw
29:51
Speaker 2: the front of the car and he had on a ball,
29:54
Speaker 2: cap and that her Boyfriend mark had told, Her, yeah
29:58
Speaker 2: he was involved in that murder at the gas. Station
30:01
Speaker 2: we called him as a. Witness he denied it never.
30:04
Speaker 2: Happened and she's married to some dude Named. STRONG i
30:06
Speaker 2: know that he had some charges. Pending the day that she,
30:09
Speaker 2: testified they dropped all the charges against her, husband.
30:13
Speaker 1: And Karen strong wouldn't have even been involved if not
30:15
Speaker 1: For Bruce rowland's lives about the getaway driver And roland
30:19
Speaker 1: originally said that his information came from another, Inmate Bill,
30:22
Speaker 1: gattis who couldn't Pick jamie out of a photo, array
30:26
Speaker 1: but was called to the stand anyway to talk about
30:28
Speaker 1: the time he'd walked into a room full of, men Including,
30:31
Speaker 1: jamie who had all been crying Over jamie's involvement In
30:34
Speaker 1: Bill little's. Death but none of those men in this
30:37
Speaker 1: alleged group corroborated this made up and hard to believe.
30:41
Speaker 4: Story, today In, illinois the state would have to prove
30:47
Speaker 4: at a pre trial hearing that these witnesses were, reliable
30:50
Speaker 4: and that was not required back. Then there's a good
30:53
Speaker 4: reason that we do these extra steps with jailhouse informants
30:57
Speaker 4: because they are notoriously. Unreliable they have reincentive to. Lie
31:01
Speaker 4: and that's what happened, here.
31:02
Speaker 1: A point that was corroborated a trial in part by
31:05
Speaker 1: a correctional officer Named Mary Jane, burns who had Told
31:08
Speaker 1: jamie in jail that she was being pressured to find
31:10
Speaker 1: informants for his trial and became a defense. Witness but
31:14
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden made a statement that she
31:16
Speaker 1: and three inmates Overheard jamie say that he knew who did.
31:20
Speaker 1: It but, then despite threats and, deals when none of
31:23
Speaker 1: these three corroborated her, Statement burns recanted on the. Stand
31:27
Speaker 1: then the defense Called jamie's wife to testify about his,
31:30
Speaker 1: alibi and in, rebuttal the state called another incentivized, Informant Bridget,
31:35
Speaker 1: logsdon who said that she'd Overheard jamie's wife talking About
31:39
Speaker 1: jamie's guilt in a. Bar the Deal logsdon had made
31:42
Speaker 1: for her own charges it wasn't disclosed, either and once
31:45
Speaker 1: Again jamie's attorney had not found the impeachment witnesses in
31:49
Speaker 1: time to Refute logsdon's. Lie since, then anyone Who logsden
31:52
Speaker 1: said was there has said that this never. Happened so
31:55
Speaker 1: without all of this really important, context the jury heard
31:59
Speaker 1: from the alleged eye, witnesses starting With Carlos luna And Gerardo.
32:03
Speaker 4: Gutierrez gutierrez testified about seeing the attendant and somebody else
32:09
Speaker 4: in the. Store the attendant appeared nervous and so did
32:13
Speaker 4: the other, person and the situation felt very suspicious to.
32:17
Speaker 4: Him Mister gutierrez never made any identification Of jamie in
32:21
Speaker 4: court or previous to, court or at any, time.
32:24
Speaker 1: And the details from the composite were also raised because
32:27
Speaker 1: now the composite didn't contain a fresh scar on the
32:30
Speaker 1: chin Like gutierrez had.
32:31
Speaker 2: Described the state's attorney was trying to characterize it as
32:35
Speaker 2: a just a. Scratch this guy just had like a,
32:38
Speaker 2: Scratch but when you read the police, reports if it
32:41
Speaker 2: was more than just a, scratch then Game Carlos.
32:44
Speaker 4: Luna Carlos luna testified about having looked out his window
32:49
Speaker 4: and seen somebody walking from the, store possibly with the
32:54
Speaker 4: cash register trey insert where the money would.
32:57
Speaker 1: Be luna didn't make an in court identification, either and years,
33:01
Speaker 1: later he also recanted his nineteen ninety one live LINEUP
33:04
Speaker 1: i D but the most consequential eyewitness was yet to
33:07
Speaker 1: Come Danny, martinez who claimed to have seen the assailant
33:11
Speaker 1: from one to three feet.
33:12
Speaker 2: Away and It's susan's. Trial he, said you, Know i'm
33:15
Speaker 2: about eighty five percent sure that's the, guy But danny
33:18
Speaker 2: changed it To i'm one hundred percent.
33:20
Speaker 4: Sure Danny martinez testified that he would never Forget Jamie snow's.
33:24
Speaker 4: Eyes that's what he remembered most, clearly that the eyes
33:29
Speaker 4: of the person that he encountered walking out of the
33:31
Speaker 4: store Were Jamie snow's.
33:33
Speaker 2: EYES i, Mean Frank fitzel he did Ask, danny, well these,
33:37
Speaker 2: Eyes he'll never forget what color were? They and he's,
33:40
Speaker 2: LIKE i don't.
33:41
Speaker 1: Know so this is Where jamie's, Attorney Frank, pissel could
33:44
Speaker 1: have Called Danny martinez his coworkers Or susan Clay comb's,
33:47
Speaker 1: Investigator Martin, foster but he just fucking, didn't Which john
33:52
Speaker 1: as a former defense, Attorney that's that's an unforgivable, sin.
33:55
Speaker 3: Right this is a pretty extreme case because the lawyer
33:58
Speaker 3: later went to prison for cheating an old lady out
34:02
Speaker 3: of her. Money he was a heavy, drinker he had mental,
34:06
Speaker 3: problems he was under tremendous, stress and his performance at
34:09
Speaker 3: trial was. PATHETIC i read these trial transcripts often And
34:13
Speaker 3: i'm just shake my. Head you look at, it and you,
34:16
Speaker 3: say some of the lawyering here is really really.
34:18
Speaker 1: Bad with the failure to investigate these witnesses and the
34:21
Speaker 1: lack of information shared by the, state as well as
34:24
Speaker 1: the failure to even present the witnesses From susan's, Trial
34:27
Speaker 1: jamie's fate was.
34:29
Speaker 2: Sealed, yeah the courtroom was, full and it seemed, like
34:34
Speaker 2: all of a, sudden all the lights got like a
34:37
Speaker 2: million times. BRIGHTER i could feel my heart, beaten AND
34:41
Speaker 2: i could hear it beat in my, ear you. Know
34:43
Speaker 2: but when the judge read the, verdict it was LIKE
34:45
Speaker 2: i didn't fully comprehend what it was that he. Said
34:49
Speaker 2: AND i leaned over To frank AND i, said what
34:51
Speaker 2: did he? Say And frank, Said i'm. Sorry After i've been,
35:10
Speaker 2: convicted the detective cats caught me in the hallway in
35:14
Speaker 2: the county jail one day and told me that IF
35:17
Speaker 2: i would give them this other guy that they believed
35:21
Speaker 2: was involved in the, case IF i would give them
35:24
Speaker 2: him that the state's attorney would agree to forty, years
35:28
Speaker 2: which at fifty, PERCENT i would have done twenty years
35:31
Speaker 2: in the. Now and WHAT i told him was so,
35:33
Speaker 2: basically you want me to do to him what you
35:36
Speaker 2: just did to. Me you want me to make some
35:39
Speaker 2: shit up for. You he's, like, no we don't want
35:41
Speaker 2: you to make none Une AND i, said, WELL i
35:43
Speaker 2: don't know who did, it, MAN i didn't do. It
35:45
Speaker 2: and the detective, said, well think about. It it's crazy
35:48
Speaker 2: BECAUSE i just told HIM i didn't know anything about,
35:51
Speaker 2: it and he's, like we'll just think about.
35:53
Speaker 1: It jamie refused and was sentenced to life without the
35:57
Speaker 1: possibility of.
35:58
Speaker 2: PAROLE i knew THAT i was going to go to
36:01
Speaker 2: one of the worst prisons in the state Of. Illinois
36:04
Speaker 2: STATE i got. Lucky they put me in a dell
36:07
Speaker 2: with a good. Guy he kind of helped me get
36:12
Speaker 2: on my. FEET i. GUESS i couldn't buy so toothpaste or.
36:16
Speaker 2: Nothing and this guy really kind of took me under his,
36:20
Speaker 2: WING i, guess and helped me navigate all of the
36:25
Speaker 2: landmines that were. Around that is a good. Guy he
36:29
Speaker 2: always claimed that he was innocent being locked. UP i,
36:32
Speaker 2: mean he made my time a lot easier than it,
36:36
Speaker 2: was SO i got, lucky.
36:38
Speaker 1: But he was not so lucky on his direct, appeal
36:40
Speaker 1: and as he moved on to post conviction, motions it
36:43
Speaker 1: appears that his cellmate also knew his way around the law.
36:46
Speaker 2: Library he helped me get my original post conviction pro
36:51
Speaker 2: se post conviction, together and he had a life sentence
36:54
Speaker 2: to and sure, enough, man he didn't get. Exonerated but
36:58
Speaker 2: he had a. Choice you can go home, now take time,
37:01
Speaker 2: served or you can keep on. Fighting and he probably
37:05
Speaker 2: would have been, exonerated but he'd been locked up for so.
37:08
Speaker 2: Long he just wanted to go, home and he took.
37:10
Speaker 2: It AND i don't blame. Him he'd had a son
37:12
Speaker 2: that had gotten, murdered and he had another son that
37:14
Speaker 2: was out on the, streets and he just wanted to
37:17
Speaker 2: get home to his, family and he struggled with. It
37:19
Speaker 2: tomorrow's not guaranteed to, anybody but that is a good.
37:23
Speaker 1: Guy does this good guy have a? Name Carl. Williams
37:27
Speaker 1: our audience might Remember. Carl we're going to link his
37:29
Speaker 1: interview in the episode, description so please check it, out
37:32
Speaker 1: in which our guest, host a previous guest on the
37:34
Speaker 1: show is a dear friend Of, carl's one of his
37:37
Speaker 1: fellow legal, Eagles Patrick. PURSLEY i Know.
37:40
Speaker 2: Patrick patrick helped me put my post conviction together as.
37:43
Speaker 2: Well very. SMART i MEAN i stood On Patrick persley's
37:47
Speaker 2: door four hours talking about my case and he never
37:52
Speaker 2: tried to run me. Off he never said he was.
37:54
Speaker 2: Busy he would sit there and he would listen to,
37:57
Speaker 2: me that he would give me all the advice that
38:00
Speaker 2: he could possibly and you, know he was fighting his own,
38:02
Speaker 2: thing but He, yeah he's a good, dude, man he really.
38:06
Speaker 2: Is there's very few, people, man That i've met Since
38:10
Speaker 2: i've been in here THAT i will absolutely get out
38:13
Speaker 2: and go look up IF i ever get a chance
38:16
Speaker 2: In carl And patrick are definitely two of.
38:18
Speaker 1: Them and we hope that reunion can one day become a,
38:21
Speaker 1: reality and maybe it will be as a result of
38:23
Speaker 1: some of the work that they did together In stateville
38:26
Speaker 1: while Writing jamie's first post conviction, motion for which in
38:30
Speaker 1: two thousand and, four they ordered the evidence that was
38:32
Speaker 1: available to his trial counsel and found police reports with
38:35
Speaker 1: corresponding tape recorded interviews of the two officers on the,
38:39
Speaker 1: Scene Paul williams And Jeff, peelow and it seems that
38:42
Speaker 1: the police reports didn't reflect an important. Reality in, addition
38:46
Speaker 1: That jamie's attorney must have never listened to the tapes
38:49
Speaker 1: but simply read the, reports because these two officers described
38:53
Speaker 1: Watching Danny Martinez philip his, tires turned to walk into the,
38:57
Speaker 1: station turned back to his, car then back to the,
39:00
Speaker 1: station and this is the moment That martina is alleged
39:03
Speaker 1: that he nearly bumped into the. Assailant so if that's,
39:06
Speaker 1: true why didn't they swoop.
39:08
Speaker 2: In this cop was standing across the street watching him
39:11
Speaker 2: the whole, time and there was never anybody.
39:13
Speaker 4: There, yeah there's actually an affidavit From Officer pelow saying
39:17
Speaker 4: from the TIME i arrived across the street to the
39:19
Speaker 4: TIME i entered the gas, station my gaze was never
39:22
Speaker 4: off the front of the station for more than a few.
39:24
Speaker 4: Seconds and he goes on to say that he's absolutely
39:27
Speaker 4: positive that from the TIME i arrived to the time
39:30
Speaker 4: THAT i eventually entered the gas, station no one other
39:33
Speaker 4: Than Bill little was either in the gas station or
39:36
Speaker 4: entered or exited the gas. STATION i had a, clear
39:39
Speaker 4: unobstructed view of the gas station door and was focusing
39:42
Speaker 4: on the.
39:42
Speaker 2: Station there is no way that somebody could have came
39:46
Speaker 2: out of that gas station and came face to face
39:49
Speaker 2: With Danny martinez in the parking lot And Jeff peelin
39:52
Speaker 2: Or Paul, williams the other police officer on the, scene
39:55
Speaker 2: not see the guy come out of the gas. Station it's.
39:57
Speaker 2: Impossible it couldn't have, happened and the state knew. It.
40:01
Speaker 1: Man not only did they know it from the, officers
40:04
Speaker 1: but also A foyer request revealed That martinez hadn't just
40:07
Speaker 1: passed Over jamie in those early.
40:09
Speaker 4: Lineups back, then the defense team knew about the non
40:12
Speaker 4: identification at the, lineup but the fact That martinez when
40:16
Speaker 4: he viewed the, lineup he affirmatively said it was Not
40:19
Speaker 4: Jamie snow that was never.
40:20
Speaker 2: Disclosed that's the thing that just is so disgusting about
40:25
Speaker 2: what they, did, man as they know that they put
40:28
Speaker 2: that dude on the stands to make an identification when
40:30
Speaker 2: it could not have.
40:31
Speaker 4: Happened jamie subsequently files several pro says post conviction, petitions
40:37
Speaker 4: all of which are, tonied and eventually The Degeneration project gets.
40:42
Speaker 4: Involved around two thousand and, eight amends one of his
40:45
Speaker 4: post conviction petitions and continues to try to litigate it.
40:50
Speaker 1: And that amended petition and subsequent petitions Included Jeff peelow's,
40:53
Speaker 1: affidavit as well as recantations from jailhouse snitches Like Steve
40:57
Speaker 1: shield And At, palombo who had threatened with more or
41:01
Speaker 1: worse time in prison to stick with their original. Statements
41:05
Speaker 1: Ed palumbo added that the, Prosecutor Charles, raynard had told
41:09
Speaker 1: him that they knew someone else had done, it but,
41:11
Speaker 1: quote since they couldn't get that other, Person jamie would
41:15
Speaker 1: have to do end, quote which is, corroborated by the,
41:19
Speaker 1: way by the Offer jamie got From katz before. Sentencing
41:22
Speaker 1: And Ronnie wright also.
41:24
Speaker 2: Recanted Ronnie wright reaked out to us and was, like,
41:28
Speaker 2: LOOK i feel bad about WHAT i did and it's
41:31
Speaker 2: really mess up with my conscience AND i just want
41:34
Speaker 2: to do the right. Thing we didn't even reach out to.
41:36
Speaker 2: HIM i, mean we've been looking for, him but he
41:38
Speaker 2: actually reached.
41:39
Speaker 1: Out to uh right said that he had testified Against
41:42
Speaker 1: jamie because of some jailhouse. Disagreement Carlos luna has also
41:46
Speaker 1: recanted his live LINEUP I.
41:47
Speaker 2: D but in, addition what we finally three boy requests
41:51
Speaker 2: was that there was a memo a sergeant in The
41:53
Speaker 2: Bloomington Police. Department Thanks Geene irving saying this isn't an.
41:57
Speaker 2: Identification this kid couldn't make an identification if he wanted.
42:01
Speaker 2: To he, SAID i was there that. NIGHT i was
42:03
Speaker 2: looking out that, window And i've seen people who were
42:07
Speaker 2: running around in the parking lot AND i couldn't identify,
42:10
Speaker 2: them and they were people THAT i.
42:11
Speaker 1: Knew so that's four, recantations Plus palumbo's Girlfriend shannon before
42:15
Speaker 1: trial And Mary Jane burns And Randy. Howard understand, well
42:19
Speaker 1: that makes a total of.
42:20
Speaker 2: Seven, well we don't have recantations for all of, them
42:23
Speaker 2: but we have either that or we have Like Bill
42:28
Speaker 2: moffatt was one of the, informants and we got an
42:31
Speaker 2: affidavit from somebody that was in prison with him that
42:33
Speaker 2: said they knocked ten years off of his sentence for.
42:37
Speaker 1: Testifying and for those who couldn't be similarly. Discredited there
42:41
Speaker 1: Were foyer requests which unearthed much of what was hidden
42:45
Speaker 1: From Frank.
42:45
Speaker 2: Pissel my Friend Ray, wilson who's a retired chief of,
42:49
Speaker 2: police had been filing These foyer requests for, years hundreds of,
42:54
Speaker 2: them and we come to find out that they had
42:57
Speaker 2: actually withheld eight thousand pages of document From frank so
43:01
Speaker 2: he didn't know a dozens of alternative suspects in police
43:05
Speaker 2: reports and statements that could impeach the, witnesses.
43:09
Speaker 1: And that included two failed pre trial polygraphs For Steve
43:12
Speaker 1: shield And Bruce, roland both of whom had also hidden
43:15
Speaker 1: their motivations for.
43:16
Speaker 2: Testifying Bruce rowland claimed that he wasn't doing it for any.
43:20
Speaker 2: Deal we find these letters that are going back and
43:23
Speaker 2: forth between him and the state, attorney and that's not
43:26
Speaker 2: what was going. On he was definitely looking to try to.
43:30
Speaker 1: Get a, deal and as we, mentioned he got, one
43:33
Speaker 1: and The foyer requests revealed that he wasn't alone At,
43:36
Speaker 1: Plumbo Steve, shield At, Hammond Kevin, Shall Jody, Winkler Bridget
43:40
Speaker 1: Logsdon Julie. Knight they all receive. Deals who's Left Bill
43:44
Speaker 1: gattis with the story about the fucking crying that. Guy
43:48
Speaker 1: and in addition to running all this down over the,
43:50
Speaker 1: years The Exoneration project has also been trying to get
43:53
Speaker 1: the crime scene evidence.
43:54
Speaker 4: Tested one of the pieces of testing that we're looking
43:57
Speaker 4: for now is to run those fingerprints through the much
44:02
Speaker 4: more advanced system that exists today and even THE, fbi
44:06
Speaker 4: which maintains the, database suggests on their website that fingerprints
44:12
Speaker 4: that were run in the past should be rerun using
44:15
Speaker 4: the new. Technology and we know that there were other
44:20
Speaker 4: suspects in this, case and we also are looking to
44:22
Speaker 4: have testing done on some of the other evidence from the.
44:26
Speaker 4: Scene there were bullets. Recovered we have a lab who
44:30
Speaker 4: can test those bullets FOR dna to see if THE
44:34
Speaker 4: dna from the person who loaded the gun is present,
44:37
Speaker 4: there and that's been done in other cases. Successfully we've
44:40
Speaker 4: also sought to have testing done on Mister little's. Clothing
44:44
Speaker 4: there's every reason to believe that there was a physical,
44:47
Speaker 4: struggle and if that's the, case the OFFENDER'S dna would
44:52
Speaker 4: likely have been left behind on Mister little's clothing and
44:57
Speaker 4: the blood that was recovered at the, scene which no
44:59
Speaker 4: doubt Mister little's blood is, there but it could also
45:02
Speaker 4: be a mixture of the assailant's blood and his, blood
45:06
Speaker 4: and we'd like to have that tested to determine whether
45:08
Speaker 4: it's a. Mixture at a hearing that we did, recently
45:12
Speaker 4: A dna expert testified about how the testing is available to,
45:15
Speaker 4: do how they would do, it how they've done it
45:17
Speaker 4: successfully in the, past and it's testing that Mister snow's
45:21
Speaker 4: defense team would be paying for, this there's no cost
45:24
Speaker 4: to the, State so, nevertheless they've opposed. It we had
45:27
Speaker 4: a hearing where we put on witnesses and the judge
45:30
Speaker 4: denied the. Testing so the current status is that we're
45:33
Speaker 4: on appeal from the denial of that post conviction forensic.
45:36
Speaker 2: Testing everything that we're asking to tests forensically is exactly
45:41
Speaker 2: what they would do right now if they didn't have
45:43
Speaker 2: me already in, prison serve and time for the crime
45:45
Speaker 2: in this case has just happened. Today everything that we're
45:48
Speaker 2: asking to, do they would, do and it's only going
45:50
Speaker 2: to do one of three. Things it's either gonna do,
45:53
Speaker 2: nothing it's gonna include, me which it, won't or it's
45:57
Speaker 2: gonna exclude me and it's gonna point the finger at
46:01
Speaker 2: the person who was in the gas station that. Night
46:03
Speaker 2: so it's a win win situation for the prosecutors no
46:06
Speaker 2: matter what, happens it doesn't make any stip why they're
46:09
Speaker 2: finding so hard not to do the.
46:10
Speaker 1: Testing, WELL i know myself And John gisham are pulling For.
46:14
Speaker 1: Jamie i'm Sure Carl williams And Patrick pursley are as,
46:16
Speaker 1: well AND i hope our audience will join.
46:19
Speaker 2: Us so they can go to Free zamisnow dot. Com
46:22
Speaker 2: they can go To snowfiles dot. Net that's our. Podcast
46:25
Speaker 2: that's where we pretty much just lay it all. Out
46:28
Speaker 2: they can find the truths about the. Case we got
46:31
Speaker 2: a petition on.
46:31
Speaker 3: There you can, sign go to the, website bring yourself
46:34
Speaker 3: to speed and then lead of the, governor talk to your,
46:37
Speaker 3: friends get your friends to write. Letters these guys are,
46:39
Speaker 3: politicians and when the mail starts getting pretty, heavy somebody's
46:43
Speaker 3: gonna notice.
46:43
Speaker 4: It Jamie snow has been in prison now for decades
46:47
Speaker 4: for something he didn't. Do there's never been justice done
46:50
Speaker 4: in this. CASE i think somebody knows something about who
46:53
Speaker 4: really did, it and any information that people have could
46:57
Speaker 4: potentially be, helpful and we would definitely appreciate hearing from.
47:00
Speaker 4: You our website Is exonerationproject dot org and you can
47:04
Speaker 4: get in touch with us through.
47:05
Speaker 3: That and if you got a few, bucks you're not
47:07
Speaker 3: talking about big. Gifts unless you get a lot of,
47:09
Speaker 3: money make a. Donation there's never enough, money and there's
47:12
Speaker 3: a very direct correlation between the amount of money you
47:16
Speaker 3: have to spend for exoneration cases and the number of
47:19
Speaker 3: people you can, free and there are thousands of innocent
47:22
Speaker 3: people in.
47:22
Speaker 1: Prison well, said and we're going to have the websites
47:24
Speaker 1: and action steps linked in the episode. Description and with
47:27
Speaker 1: that we're going to closing, arguments where First i'm going
47:30
Speaker 1: to Thank John, grisham the one and, only for his,
47:32
Speaker 1: support and both of, You jamie And, carl for joining
47:36
Speaker 1: us here. Today and Now i'm just gonna kick back
47:38
Speaker 1: in my, chair close my eyes with my headphones, on
47:41
Speaker 1: and listen to anything you feel is left to be.
47:43
Speaker 1: Said let's start With, john Then, carl and Then. Jamie
47:47
Speaker 1: you take us off into the.
47:48
Speaker 3: SUNSET i can't really think of it that he's been
47:51
Speaker 3: left un. Said there's a whole lot we could talk
47:52
Speaker 3: about these cases. Forever that's WHY i wrote the, Book.
47:55
Speaker 3: Jason these cases are so. INCREDIBLE i Wrote The Innocent
47:58
Speaker 3: man this in two thousand and, six sort of jumped
48:02
Speaker 3: into that case and researched. It and the More i've,
48:05
Speaker 3: learned the worst Of. GOD i couldnot believe what, happened
48:08
Speaker 3: and SO i wrote this book and that really took
48:11
Speaker 3: me into the world of wrongful. Convictions And i'm still
48:14
Speaker 3: there right now and over the years with you In New.
48:17
Speaker 3: York at banquets and things like, that you meet some
48:19
Speaker 3: of these ex, hoonareies and they're remarkable, people men who
48:22
Speaker 3: have survived nightmares if the rest of us cannot begin to,
48:25
Speaker 3: imagine and they come out steal in one. Piece most of.
48:29
Speaker 3: Them they have their, dignity they have their, Pride they're
48:31
Speaker 3: tough as. Nails they survived and they don't want to
48:35
Speaker 3: talk about. It they want to do something good with
48:37
Speaker 3: their remaining. Time but just you fall in love with
48:40
Speaker 3: these ex. Hogneries that's Why i'm still trying to help
48:42
Speaker 3: people Like jamie and still believe in the cause of
48:46
Speaker 3: exonerating innocent. People but, more even more, importantly is to
48:49
Speaker 3: pass laws and change procedures that will eliminate virtually all wrongful.
48:54
Speaker 3: Convictions it can be, done if we would just do.
48:57
Speaker 4: IT i Think jamie's case is a union weekly tragic,
49:00
Speaker 4: one but also all too. Common AND i definitely thank
49:04
Speaker 4: you and your listeners for your interest in this type
49:08
Speaker 4: of injustice and all the support and trying to remedy.
49:11
Speaker 4: IT i really am, appreciative and all of us, are
49:14
Speaker 4: AND i Know jamie, is for the attention that you've
49:16
Speaker 4: paid to his case and to so many other cases
49:18
Speaker 4: where people have been wrongfully. CONVICTED i know that it's
49:23
Speaker 4: been very hard For jamie and obviously very hard on his,
49:26
Speaker 4: family but he is a very strong. PERSON i admire
49:29
Speaker 4: him a great deal AND i look forward to one
49:33
Speaker 4: day seeing him on the. Outside there's a long, ROAD i,
49:36
Speaker 4: think in an uphill, battle but with support from people
49:40
Speaker 4: like you and your, LISTENERS i think we'll get there for,
49:42
Speaker 4: him hopefully sooner than.
49:43
Speaker 2: Later, yeah, MAN i appreciate, You John. GRISHAM i Appreciate
49:48
Speaker 2: doll giving me a, voice AND i hope that this
49:52
Speaker 2: creates some pressure on someone as somebody who's got the
49:55
Speaker 2: how to make a. Difference here's it and does? Something
50:00
Speaker 2: sent me a quote a long time ago From Martin
50:02
Speaker 2: Luskin junior and justice anywhere is a threat to justice.
50:06
Speaker 2: Everywhere and that's the Truth, smith it really.
50:09
Speaker 1: Is thank you for listening To Wrongful. Conviction you can
50:18
Speaker 1: listen to this and all The lava For good podcasts
50:21
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50:24
Speaker 1: For Good plus On Apple. PODCASTS i want to thank
50:27
Speaker 1: our production, Team Connor hall And Kathleen, fink as well
50:30
Speaker 1: as my fellow executive Producers Jeff, Kempler Kevin, wartis And Jeff.
50:33
Speaker 1: Kleiber the music in this production was supplied by three
50:36
Speaker 1: TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow
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50:42
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50:52
Speaker 5: One we've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported
50:54
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50:57
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51:00
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51:02
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