Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / Jason A. England on The Impact of 1995 on Hip-Hop: A Deep Dive into the Evolution of Rap | 11.18

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Jason A. England on The Impact of 1995 on Hip-Hop: A Deep Dive into the Evolution of Rap | 11.18 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the right time, a wave original.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: My name is Beaumont Jones. Thanks for listening wherever you
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: get your podcast. Thanks for watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: a hater. All right, we are trying something new here.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: We are going to do a series for the year
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: 1996 in rap for 2026. You can do a little
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: bit of math. 30 years, celebration of sorts. Got a
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: lot of episodes, planned out ideas. It's going to be
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a little different than last time. When we did 1994,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: we went through specific albums. When we're going to do 1996,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about like more albums, but also
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: just kind of where we were at the time. So
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: a little bit more of a study than just a rundown,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: but it dawned on me while doing this. We always
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: talk about 1994. We always talk about 96. In between, quietly,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: is the.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Banging year of 1995.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: So to join us for the episode of Running Through 1995,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I should have asked how to introduce him before we
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: got here, but he is a brilliant critic of culture.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: If nothing else, some of the other stuff, I'm not
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: sure legally how much I can say, but Jason Englund
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: coming to us live from Pittsburgh.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: What's going on, man?
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: What's going on? I got my Pittsburgh Pirates jersey, Sean Price.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: In theme for 1995. Pleasure to be here. You know,
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: cultural critic, I guess. A writer, generally. A former college
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: professor of, I think, about 15 years. And, you know,
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: happy to be kicking it about rap with you.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: No, you actually go to those Pirates games. That's the
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: thing to be very clear about.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: BNC is one of the best ball series in America.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: You don't even have to watch the game.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: I have this thing now where I'm getting to that
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: age and because of the inclinations and shall we say
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: the eclecticness of my taste.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: The way black people feel when they see white.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: People wearing them NWA t-shirts and stuff like that, I
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: kind of feel that way when I see somebody on
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: the train down 125th Street with a Pink Floyd t-shirt on.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: You don't know nothing about no.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Pink Floyd, but it's the opposite of the way that
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: black people typically say that. But no, you are not
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: doing that with your baseball jersey. You really be out
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: there watching them lose.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do. I mean, born and raised a Yankees fan.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: Don Mattingly was white Jesus for me. But I always
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: had a soft spot for the Pirates. I was a
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: big fan of baseball history. Bill Mazeroski, you know, those
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: Willie Stargell teams, the We Are Family teams. But that
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: was the last time that they were really relevant. So
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: you go for the good seats and the view of
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: the city and you go for the right field bar.
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: You want to talk to my homegirl up there, Mel.
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: She'll get you right.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Also, no, they were relevant when the Braves were beating
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: them in the playoffs. That was my favorite era of
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: the Pirates.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: Dan Slyke and Barry Bonds and Terry Pendleton years.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: That's right. And I did like a sparkle quiz.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: The Pirates, I mean, this will be, this will change
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: with the LSU cat, but they have not had a
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Cy Young award winner since Doug Drabeck in 1990.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Just throwing that out there.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Everybody does something since then.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: But the year it wrapped, 1995, you and I come
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: from this from similar but different perspectives.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: I was growing up in Houston. You were in New York.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Two places that are fairly insular about their hip-hop, but
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: we were two people that were inclined to kind of
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: branch out and get into more. But I do say,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: looking back on it, the insularity is not necessarily the
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: bad thing they could often feel like at the time
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: because what we're talking about, especially for people younger who
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: can't quite catch this, is this is.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: the mid nineties is when we're starting.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: To see this dwindle a bit, but we're still squarely
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: in a very regional era of what rap was. And
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: I don't mean that yes, in a way it was provincial,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: but in a lot of ways that was very, very
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: good because we had very distinct scenes in different cities,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: like scenes within cities, but also just very distinct scenes
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: across the country that every now and then overlap. But
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: there was something kind of charming about the fact that
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: the lines were drawn a little bit more clearly.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I think there was a less of a flattening of, of, um,
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: of I guess the personality and the slang in hip hop.
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: And the other thing was, I think it was more
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: of a charm to hearing things from outside of hip
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: hop and people were emceeing as an art. And that's
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: something I went back and I listened to maybe two,
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: three hours of music, just to get re-familiarized. And I
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: felt like I was back being in my teens and
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: early twenties again, man, it was beautiful. But something that
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: was very distinctive was the creativity. And there's something about
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: rappers I don't want to go too far back and
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: say in the last 20 years, but certainly in the
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: last five to 10, where they had this feel about them,
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: like people who described themselves as creatives. You know, I
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: don't really know if you have a talent for any
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: craft or mastery of any craft. You just kind of
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: have this catch-all phrase that you're an MC and it
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: means something very different now. So it was really refreshing
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: to go back and listen to like an Andre 3000
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: or a CeeLo for the first time when they just
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: blew my mind, right? Or the Wu-Tang when they came.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: You're talking about regional. New York itself was regional within
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: New York. You know, it's like, right. Brooklyn versus, well,
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: not Harlem. We barely ever produced any MC.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: It is inexplicable how that turns out.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: But yeah, Brooklyn and Queens. And then suddenly you have
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: these people coming in from Staten Island that, you know,
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: as they said in succession, you might as well be
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: busting in from Cleveland at that point. Right. And you
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: have one of the greatest groups of all time emerged
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: from there. And that was fascinating. You know, and I
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  Speaker 3: do think that.
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  Speaker 1: We can say this off the top, and I understand
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: why these things offend younger people when they hear it,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: but the truth is, they was rapping better back then.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: There's kind of no way around it, in part because
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: you had the technology, or like thereof in some ways,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: almost made it such that you had to be rapping
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  Speaker 1: better back then. To do this or want to do it,
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  Speaker 1: you also had to love it in a different way
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: because the promise of a payday did not exist, or
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: the dream of it rather than the promise did not
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: exist in the same way. And when you go back
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: and listen, it is a far more literate music, I
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: would say. And it is definitely, like you said, a
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: different era of creativity.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And there's a love of it culturally that stems
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: from it being a local culture, right? People are breakdancing
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: and beatboxing before they started pretending that Lin-Manuel invented these things.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: Everyone was doing this. So my friend Shaka King, director
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: who did... Why am I forgetting this movie?
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Jews and the Black Messiah.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. He tells this great story about when him
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: and our friend Justin would go to Knitting Factory in
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: Wetlands and the Roots would just rock. They would do
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: these jam sessions for like an hour or two. And
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: this rapper from Brooklyn Half a Mill would show up.
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  Speaker 3: Like a street dude would be there just in there
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  Speaker 3: proving his skills. You know, this was like, you might
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: be a drug dealer, you might be a thug in
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: people's eyes, but you came there to be an artist.
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  Speaker 3: And that was very different back then. And it was
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: in a way that I did not appreciate until, you know,
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: 10 years later, 15 years later.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: And specific to what you're referring to, because all you
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: guys are from New York. And I do think there's
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: something interesting about the fact in that time. And I
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: don't know if you could fully pick up on it
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: while growing up there.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: But by this time, you would begin to move out
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: in the world a little bit.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: New York itself was a character in rap. Like what
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: New York meant to rap, it's not just simply, oh,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: it's the birthplace of rap. By now, okay, California has
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: established itself. The South is beginning to rise and it really,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: really gets going in 96 like that. But going back
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: at this time and thinking about just some of the
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: records that came out of New York in 1995, right?
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  Speaker 1: Like we start the year with The Shining, Smith & Wesson.
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  Speaker 1: You get the infamous from Mobb Deep a little bit later.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Three Wu-Tang albums, and we'll get more into that. Like,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: the gritty, grimy New York sound. We got AZ Door
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Dot comes out this year. KRS-One puts out the album.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: It's got MCs acting like they don't know, and others
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  Speaker 1: on it. Like, New York is still, in 1995, a
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: clear titan in rap. But what is interesting, really going
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: back on it, is the idea that, oh, this is
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: also music that is very clearly made for New York.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: They ain't really tripping too hard on what nobody else
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  Speaker 1: is doing.
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's accurate. And I think that when
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: you look in retrospect, some of what I couldn't see
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: at the time was how little that would matter to
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: everyone else. So The Shining you bring up, it's just
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: a classic album in New York. And Smith & Wesson,
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, there were probably five singles off that that
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: ran the streets. Sound Boy Burial is one of the
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: greatest New York anthems ever in terms of just capturing
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: the feeling of the city at that time. Back then,
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: people were debating whether or not Boot Camp Clip or
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: Wu-Tang was the better crew. I mean, there was a
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: real argument that Black Moons into the stage was as
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: good of an album as Wu-Tang into the 36 Chambers, right? Now,
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: in retrospect, it's a laughable concept. And that was kind
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: of because we had, you know, my friend talks about
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: people on the West Coast having West Coast ears and
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: their love for certain things. like DJ quick to an
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: extreme that people in New York never could have, but
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: we had East coast ears. You know, we, we loved
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: bootcamp in a way that the rest of the country
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: never could. They could never understand why we heard them
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: that way. I mean, we even love some of us
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: Tim dog in a way that certainly no one with
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: any other kind of ears could.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Ever feel that way.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: So, you know, I did, I do understand that much
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: better now and I could understand it a bit back then.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: But I think it's interesting though, that because of, I mean,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: New York still was the center of the media world
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: and specifically the center of the media world and rap.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: So they're really until vibe comes out.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: And I want to say vibe comes out around like 94,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: 95 in that space. But the source was the Bible
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: for all of these things. And the source was guidance
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: in terms of what was or was not supposed to
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: be dope.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: It was kind of the source.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Yo MTV raps and rap city. We're kind of beaming
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: in for you. And so we got these insights on
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: these things. And so in the South, especially for the
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: places in the South that rap did not catch on immediately,
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: like rap caught on immediately in New Orleans. It caught
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: on immediately in Atlanta. I would argue in Houston, rap
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: did not catch on immediately in that way. Once Houston
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: got its own rap scene, people in Houston got into that. Now,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: there were some of us that were a bit on
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: our own. kick, and we were there for what the
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: New York rap was. And so amongst our crews, like
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Smith & Wesson was still going, right?
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: They were still hitting.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: You were interesting because you were in New York, and
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: you actually were able to get an ability to appreciate
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: and feel the rap, especially that was coming out of
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: the South and starting to rise in this time.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I went down to North Carolina and I linked
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: up with my homie James, R.I.P. James drove a lowrider
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: Ford EXP and he was blasting Compton's Most Wanted and
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: he was blasting Outkast's first album. And I had all
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: the tapes he had never heard. The Diamond D tape
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: blue was mine. I remember that. He was like, what
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: the hell is this? I had Biggie before it came
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: out because my cousin was a sound engineer. He had
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: an early copy of it. And I'm sitting there. It
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: reminds me of my close friend, my point guard in
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: high school. He went to Santa Clara. I was down
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: in North Carolina. And I told him I had run
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: a scrimmage with Vince Carter. And he told me he
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: had run a scrimmage with the best guard he had
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: ever met. I'm like, well, who the hell is this
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: at Santa Clara? I'm telling you about a guy named
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: Vince Carter in North Carolina. And he was telling me
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: about Steve Nash. And at the time, I was like,
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: who cares about Steve Nash? And this was how it
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: was with James. It's like, I thought I had all
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: of the tapes. And then James plays me the outcast.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, whoa. And then my other friend plays
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: me the eight ball in MJG. And that was like,
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: that was back when we looked at the source and
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: it was like, who's the fat dude on this ad,
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: you know, looking ridiculous, leaning against the car. And I
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: was like, oh, he's nice. And his partner, MJG, might
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: be nicer than all the New York rappers that I love.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: But to this day, I still argue with people from
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: New York. I'm like, man, y'all slept on MJG. Dude
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: was crazy. And it was that expanded my mind for sure.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: But I was always very open-minded and I hate group think.
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: I grew up in New York, never rooting for the
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: local teams except the Yankees. And that was only because
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: I read a history book about them when I was young.
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: I'm always trying to expand my horizon. So it's a
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: beautiful thing to watch these rap groups coming up.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: And I think that 95 and rap out of New
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: York really is defined by two things. Queens, Mobb Deep,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: The Infamous. And the three Woo albums that come out
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: that year. Old Dirty Bastard, Return of the 36 Chambers,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Only Built for Cuban Links from Ray Kwan, and then
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: to close out the year, Liquid Swords with the GZA.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: And so there's something to be said about the fact
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: that the defining music of that time was so gully
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: and so hardcore. But for those who were not there,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: I don't know how possible it is to explain what
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: a big fucking deal the infamous Mobb Deep record was.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, sonically, it stands up, right? At
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: the time, I'd never heard anything like it. We're all
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: just coming out of this stupendous hangover of Illmatic, thinking
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: that that was the best thing anybody ever heard in
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: New York. And the infamous drops from the same exact neighborhood.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: And it's like, I don't want to say this sounds
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: better because that seems blasphemous, but this is kind of
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: sound better. And you got Q-Tip with his fingerprints and
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: his DNA all over it. I think Mobb Deep was
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: saying that one of the things that Tip had to
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: give for is he could make a record sound Huge.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: He just had a way sonically with drums and texture
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: where suddenly your music, the beat you made just sounded
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: much bigger. Like it should be in a club, in
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: a stadium. And every song sounded like that. And Prodigy
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: was just a genius rapper. And I think over the
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: years he's been acquitted. You know, I think a lot
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: of people just thought about him making these hardcore raps
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: and like, he was kind of like pretty good. No, man,
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: he was singularly talented. His influence is all over MCs.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: You know, Clipse is not my favorite group, but every group,
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: like clips will tell you like, hey, Prodigy was an
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: emcee who inspired me, right? So you have this incredible
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: rapping over great sonics, and then you go over to
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: the RZA side of things, and I'm not sure that
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: New York's ever had a more brilliant producer. I say
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: that as someone who loves other producers more. I love
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: Prime Premier. I love Madlib. I'm not saying he's from
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: New York, but those are my favorite producers. I think
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: Q-Tip's a singular genius in hip hop history. but I
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: don't know anyone did what RZA did. When you hear
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: RZA's beat flips on Liquid Swords, on Only Built for
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: Community Lakes, and you find the sample sources, you still
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: don't understand how he made the beat. And to me,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: that's the mark of a great producer. That's a visionary.
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: Like I still, it's like, wait, you took that sample
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: and you did what with it? I still have no
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: idea how you came up with that beat. Living in
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: the World Today off Jizz's album is one that comes
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: to mind. Criminology comes to mind. I don't know if
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: that's a lot of drugs. I don't know if it's
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: a lot of vision. I don't know if it's too
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: many kung fu movies. But I still have never heard
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: soundscapes like the ones he created. And they did blow
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: my mind. And no one was ready. The underground was
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: not ready for that. A lot of people have this
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: historical revision that everyone thought these albums were classic. I
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: remember listening to Stretch and Bobbito religiously. And when only
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: Built for Cuban Leagues came out, they thought it sounded good.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: And they were very thrown off by the lyrical content
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: and didn't like it all that much. It took them
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: a while to warm up. But that thing was just
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: so overpowering as an album. It was so dope and
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: so raw and so new. It sounded like it was
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: from outer space and it just took over. There was
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: no critically, no stopping it on the ground. It set
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: a new standard for rap. It totally changed New York rap.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Now, one thing I'll say real quick, we don't have
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: to belabor is that the technology and the means of
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: distribution at the time made it much easier for something
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: to be something that you could warm up.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: To, right?
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Like you were not required to like it immediately or
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: otherwise that you moved on because you pay $ 17 or
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: however much it costs you to get that tape. I'm
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: going to find out if I like it. Now with
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the Mobb Deep, to me, both with the sound and
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: the lyrics, it was so evocative, right? And it was
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: so easy to, And a lot of ways to picture
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: what they were talking about to the point where people
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: were shocked to find out not only were these guys
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: like five feet tall, they were also like 18.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: If you didn't know that part already.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Because and this is something that's interesting.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Also, you don't really get that many 18, 19 year
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: olds that get to that space, you.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Know, as as they had with that record.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: But especially after I moved here, somebody told me it
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: was Elena Bergeron who told.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Me who was like, hey, man.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: You're going to have one of these cold, wet, rainy
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: days that you got to walk through to get to
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: the train no matter what. Throw that mob deep on then.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: And if it didn't make sense to you before, it
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: will now, right? And so now the Queensbrick Projects, the
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: largest projects in the United States, it should be noted,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: are kind of an epicenter of where rap has gone.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Illmatic has come out in 94. Nas is on this record.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: It's kind of the Queen, and I don't want to
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: say the Queen's resurrection because it's not like they just
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: completely went away, but you're right.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Q-Tip, who always had... You made this point to me
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: that I didn't realize.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: Q-Tip got more street respect than one might have thought,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: given what the type of music was that they were doing,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: even with that music. So now he's coming in and
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: putting these grimy beats on top of it. Plus, Havoc
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: himself is making this thing bang. And then you look
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: up and it's like, oh, okay, like... It's as New
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: York in a good way as any record had ever been.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Then you go to Staten Island.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: And what I thought about the RZA was the RZA
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: was also similarly evocative, except I felt like Mobb Deep
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: was painting a picture for a world that clearly existed.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: And you knew what it was.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know what the hell is going on with
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: these cats, but I can see it.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think about this quite often. I think about
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: the Brooklyn Zoo video. I didn't know what was happening.
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: And I'm from New York. And not only am I
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: from New York, but my entire family, you know, in
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: projects across from Fort Greene to Harlem. Project Staircase and
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: Hallway is not new to me. But when I saw
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: ODB and Method Man and the Staircase in that video,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: I said, these people are just on something else, man.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: I do not understand the vision, but I know when
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: I'm seeing something genius and that I should keep watching
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: and keep listening. But I always thought ODB in the
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: strangest way was a yin and yang sort of person
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: with Tupac. They have very similar spirits to me. They
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: were absolute superstars, irrepressible charisma. You never knew what they
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: were going to do or who they were going to
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: pop up around. Now he was a more derelict version. Absolutely.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: But I just, his spirit, you know, I, I was
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: in awe of it from the, from the moment I
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: saw him, I've never seen such an obvious superstar who
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: looks nothing like a superstar and the standard measurement of it. Like,
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, that whole crew, they burned bright from the beginning.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: New York had this thing where people would talk about
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: the coolest guy in New York rap every year. And
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: it was weird people sometimes. Like, Graham Puba was absolutely
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: the coolest guy in New York rap. Jay-Z was. The
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: Woo had like three of them, man. Like, they had
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Method Man, who was for us? Ghostface absolutely was. And
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: in his own way, you can argue that ODB was.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: And that's incredible for one group to have. And we're
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: not even getting to Jezza, RZA, or Raekwon when we're
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: talking about that, right? Like, that's the coolest group to
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: ever come out of New York, man.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Purple tape. Cause purple tape drops that summer. And I
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: remember when it came out and like, I'm in Houston, man.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: So this is a different world. Like we were into
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: the woo, but that was the first one for real
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: for me out of the solos where I was like, Oh, Hey,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: cause you gotta think about it. The meth solo record
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: was disappointing. I think it's fair to, you know, there,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: there are explanations for why it was, but it was disappointing.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: The ODB one is still a little bit out there.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: The purple tape is like, hey, man, there's never been
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: anything like this before in a way that it took
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: me many years to understand because I didn't quite, you know,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: 15 years old or 14. I only know so much
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: about selling dope.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: And they're talking about selling dope in a way that
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: is way different than anything I ever could have imagined
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: at that point in my life.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: And also mixed. in the 5% slang, you know, it's
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: almost like a carryover from like the brand Nubian era
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: and then wedding it to this sort of emerging mafioso
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: drug dealer era. So it was like knowledge yourself and
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: selling dope at the same time. And it's a hell
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: of a thing to sit up on here and talk
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: about this critically and celebrate selling dope. But you know what?
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Sometimes rapping about selling dope sounds good. A lot of
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: people live that way.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Rap was better with crackpot religion, man.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: I always say, like, what's... Because if nothing else, no
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: matter what the religion was, there was a spiritual basis
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: behind it. And I think we've all acknowledged, even I,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: as a non-religious, wouldn't call myself a spiritual person, the
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: music's better when it's got that feeling, regardless of where
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: it comes from.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: And rap was always buoyed by that, right? In part because...
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: And you can't really know.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: This till you get to New York. But like you
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: walk in Harlem north of 125th Street and just start
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: looking at what some of the buildings are. Man, it's
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: all kinds of crackpot religion going on.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: The doors are still open. New Cats is still in
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: there getting the knowledge and the mathematics. I don't know
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: why they don't rap no more.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: But it really added a texture to the music that
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: was coming out from there that hasn't been replaced since
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: this era.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, my uncle was FOI. And my uncle
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: was also a drug enforcer. That marriage always existed in
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: that religion. You said something else I want to touch
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: on real quick because I think it's so fascinating. Obviously,
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: people who collect vinyl are purists in their own way.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: For some reason, I always thought the tape, for me,
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: was the best form of music because of what you said.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: The Walkman I have, maybe I just didn't have enough
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: money to have the real nice ones because it wasn't
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: worth fast-forwarding. So you had to sit with the entire album.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: And sitting with an entire album is a lot like
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: how you become a real good intellectual because over time
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: and with patience and understanding, you learn what the good
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: songs are. The CD is the first step away from
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: it and toward this sort of AI automated sound where
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: it's like, I only want to hear this saccharine song.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: I want to hear the song everybody else likes. You
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: never spend the time. It's almost like people's tastes in
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: celebrity women. It's like everyone thinks this person's attractive and
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: they look airbrushed. When you sit with a person for
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: weeks and months in conversation, you learn what makes a
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: person attractive and beautiful. And you're able to set your
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: own taste, your own standard for beauty, your own standard
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: for what's dope. And when that went away, I think
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: a lot of the culture and the discourse went away,
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: and I hated it.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Now, we're talking about this in the context of New York,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: and you touched on this very quickly, but Tupac's Me
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Against the World comes out in 1995, which is.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: In part the calm before the storm, but also in
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: part the storm before the storm, right? Like there are
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: these moments where he has this kind of like lucidity
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: and clarity and, you know.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: This is Tupac going into jail.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: So this is also Tupac giving you Dear Mama and
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: kind of giving you that vibes while also giving you
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Fuck the World and raging through the record. But it
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: is the record that sets up the rest of the decade, right?
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: The timeline of rap is established or this is a
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: clear inflection point about where things are going, but in
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: a way that none of us.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Could have possibly known or understood when it came out.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah. You could do a whole podcast on that album. Well,
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: I don't even know where to start with that one.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: That's more than listening to OutKast. It was Pac who
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: changed how I received the music. You have to understand
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: Harlem actually was a hub for Tupac. He hung out
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: there a lot. I saw him at the Bodega on
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: 126th and Lexington hanging out front because the woman he
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: married and then later had the marriage annulled, I'm sorry,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: when he was in prison, she lived half a block
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: down from me. So he was there a lot. Ra-Ra,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: who was on Me Against the World, is from Harlem.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: I used to see him out there. by the Jackie
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Robinson projects. So Harlem already had love for Pac, and
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of people thought New York didn't
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: like Tupac, which was not true, at least not where
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: I was. But on top of that, he was the
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: first person, for me personally, and I think some people
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: argue Scarface went there too, but for me, it was
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: Pac who did this sort of emotional, blues, paranoia, desperation
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: thing rap that spoke to me for a lot of reasons. One,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: I was about to drop out of college because I
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: didn't have enough money and I had responsibilities. My cousin
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: had just gone to jail for cocaine possession. He was
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: my brother. I grew up with him. And my best
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: friend had gotten shot and killed. And I needed someone
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: who spoke to trauma and spoke to the way I
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: grew up and the emotions I was running through. And
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: that wasn't in the sort of lyrical rap, right, where
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: people are trying to outdo each other with terms of phrase.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: And I think Pac showed me a new way to rap.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: It was like, oh, you don't just have to write,
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: you know, a quadruple entendres to get a point across, right?
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: There's a raw emotional way to do it. And that
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: set me up for the rest of my life in
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: terms of the rap that I like going forward, that
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: you can tap into that. So I just thought that
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: was phenomenal.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Emotion as a device.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Like this is the one where he talks about Biggie
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: stole my album for his album. Of course that is
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: probably exaggerated, but you can hear and understand in me
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: against the world what he's talking about.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Cause it's really thematic.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: And the idea that you were talking about your pain
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: and your depression in your life and all of these things.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: And this record also makes it interesting is it's a
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: New York-ish record, right? Like it's still very much like,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: you know, you got Shock G beats on there. You
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: got like the Johnny J stuff, but you also got
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: the Easy Mo B joints. And he clearly did like
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: this record was done in large part also in New
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: York City. And of course, this is the setup, right?
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: This one comes out while he's in jail and he
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: is stewing and has convinced himself that Biggie Smalls and Puffy.
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: Had him shot. And then everything rages after that.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: But this also, and I feel like in some ways,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: this puts a cap to a big theme in the
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: early 90s of what you just talked about is the
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: trauma of a crazy murder rate. That was the early 90s,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: like something I didn't really grasp in the time because
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: my life was fairly charmed. But like, remember the the
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: the this is for my homies in the gangsta lean song.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: And like there were a lot of funeral dirges and
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: just songs about people dying at the time because so
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: many people were getting murdered at that point. This is
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: the era of the crime bill that everybody talks about.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: And all of that stuff. And Pac is kind of
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: the culmination of this post-civil rights movement, like the cats
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: that grew up in that revolution and the disappointment that
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: come after that. And then you get to this record
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: and you're just like, oh, OK, this is it all
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: coming together. And all that pain as he's headed into jail,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: which had to be highly disappointing on a number of levels.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: This is all it right here.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And when we talked about branching out to
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: going out to North Carolina where my friend was murdered,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: he was in Winston-Salem. I went to Winston-Salem and that
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: woke me up, you know, because it's true because of
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: media and the representations in New York. A lot of
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: people growing up thinking, well, this is where the hood is.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: It's here in Compton, right? This sort of ignorance. And
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: I went to Winston-Salem, the murder rate was the highest
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: it was in the nation at the time. And I
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: went around the projects there and I thought, take me
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: back to the projects in New York immediately. This is terrible, right?
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: And that kind of gave me this feeling that presaged
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: A group like Bone Thugs, too, where it was like, yo,
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: all over this country, people are dealing with the trauma.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: There's a reason these dirges exist, because the entire nation
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: has these pockets where these Black people are in the
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: grips of this trauma. And the music is going to
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: emerge from there, speaking to this pain and speaking about
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: this pain. And I think that's what we saw starting
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: to happen in 95 for sure.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: And it's interesting because you fast forward 20 years from
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: that and think about stuff like what was going on
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: when we were in the streets about the police killing
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: us and everything else.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: And there was still no soundtrack to it. Never, never.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Nobody got around to going in the booth and doing
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: something about it. And it makes you ask yourself why.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: But coming up next, we got a lot more 1995
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: rap coming up on the right time. What if you
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: could consistently find whatever it is you're looking for right away?
• 27:52
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• 27:56
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• 28:27
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• 28:30
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• 28:33
  Speaker 1: of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality
• 28:36
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• 28:40
  Speaker 1: try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Bomani. Again, that's
• 28:45
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• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Let's be honest.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: It's hard to stay healthy during the holiday season. Crowded
• 28:56
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• 29:00
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• 29:03
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• 29:55
  Speaker 1: All right, back with Jason Englund talking about the year
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: in rap, 1995. It's really fun to kind of just
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: go through and look at how many albums were just
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: absolute classics.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: But the other thing is.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: There are records that, like Master A sitting on Chrome,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: for example, which was always, he was always this interesting
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: construction because the New York rapper who did not sound
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: like he was making New York rap at all, right?
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: It felt like at that time where I was going
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: through the list of albums that came out that year
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: and it would just be sprinklings of cats.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: It was like, oh yeah, Nine, Nine Lives, the other dudes.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: From uh staten island that was making records it's like
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: oh yeah i forgot about nine but there would always
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: be these records that might be your joint not everybody's
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: joint but would be your joint az do or die
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: is a record that comes out that year but in
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: terms of the big ones you tapped touched on this
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: right before we went to break which was the bone
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: thugs who the year before had come out with creeping
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: on to come up with thuggish ruggish bone for the
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: love of money and.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: They changed the game. It's kind of hard to dispute.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: And it was also very difficult to get a handle
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: for a lot of people as to whether or not
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: they liked that.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I was in Houston. They could not get enough of
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: a melodic rap group, right? They were the ones. But
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: 95 is when East 1999 Eternal comes out. It was everywhere.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Like, I don't really have a great handle on how
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: we talk about the Bone Thugs in the future that
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: has emerged since then. But where I was, it got
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: no bigger than the Bone Thugs.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it was that big in
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: New York, but I also wasn't exclusively in New York
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: at that point. So I was getting it from different places.
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: I would bring music back to people I knew in
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: New York and they still weren't hearing all of it
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: like that. And Bone Thugs had this, a lot of
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: people I knew in New York called it group home rap.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: It was like, this is ironically, ironically, they liked the
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: group home, but they were talking about kids who lived
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: in group homes. They were like, that's the kind of
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: kids who listen to us. What I heard with Bone
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: was bizarre and off-putting. And I listened to it enough
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: that I started to love it. But I thought the
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: album was incredibly uneven. Like, I didn't think it was
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: a great album. I thought it was a great breakthrough style.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: And the evidence of that has been vindicated, right? Like,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: that album's been vindicated because everyone rapped like Bone Thugs.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: emerging out of it. Everyone was doing double and triple
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: time flows. Everyone was trying to harmonize. I mean, Lord,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: the whole game is about harmony now, right? Yeah, I
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: think they're a fascinating group and you look back on
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: them and they are the weirdest geniuses that rap has
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: produced maybe. Like half of them are these like mulattos
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: from Cleveland. They're doing barbershop quartet rap. It doesn't seem
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: like it should work whatsoever. And yet here we are
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: all these years later, one of the most successful rap
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: groups in the history of the genre. I mean, they
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: were selling records for, I guess, I guess they were
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: flyover state rappers. They united everyone. I found out about
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: them from a woman I was kind of messing with
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: from Pittsburgh, you know. So it was very popular in
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: those places where they did not have a firm rap identity.
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: They were speaking in some ways. They were group home
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: foster care rappers. They were speaking to the states that
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: were kind of the foster children of hip hop.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: The irony of it is, 3-6 Mafia, guys, live by
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: your rep, which is called the bone diss, because they're like, hey, man,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: these cats are coming down here.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: One of them is coming down here during the summers,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: and they bit our whole steez. Now, you fast forward
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: 30 years.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: And the Three Six Mafia is now treated as the
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: pioneering group of all the things you talked about, the
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: triple time rap and all of that stuff. It went
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: back around in Three Six, which put out a gang
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: of records that year, by the way. Like if you
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: were around Memphis or somewhere where you could get a
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: hand in some Memphis rap, then you'd get a hold
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: of them. They put out a bunch of records that year,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: and it was like, oh, these guys say that Bone
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: stole from them. I wonder who they are. Now they're
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: the ones that get all the credit for it. My
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: thing with Bone at the time, especially with that record,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: was it was like, hey, man, we ain't need 30
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: tracks or however long that thing was. It just felt
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: like a producer was told that he needed to come
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: up with more beats that he really could come up
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: with unless you expected some of them to sound the same.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Well, you know how people used to talk about Eminem,
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: and they would say there's a thing that black people
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: can't really relate to is that he's dissing his mom.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: There was a thing like that with Bone, too, where
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: it was like, you know, a thing that the black
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: people I grew up around couldn't relate to. We don't
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: want to hear about no Ouija boys, bro. What is
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: going on on this record? Mr. Ouija and all that.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: This is confusing to me. You're talking to Satan over there?
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: What's happening, man? But I got to tell you one off-color,
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: if I can, one off-color story about Three 6 Mafia.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: I have an ex-girlfriend who's a novelist. And she, at
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: one point, when she sold the book, She moved into
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: this giant house in Cincinnati. It was really nice. If
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: you know Cincinnati, there's really no good neighborhoods in Cincinnati.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: Everything is touching the hood in some way. And so
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: a bunch of skater punks had lived in this, like
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: eight of them lived in this house so they could
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: afford it. And I guess the landlord had painted over
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: the wall. And she called me one day and said,
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: you know, you can see this graffiti through the paint.
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: And I said, what does it say? She said, it says,
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: suck me. A Nick Dick or something? The 3-6 legacy
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: lives on.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Well, I also like with 3-6 and Bone being so
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: closely tied, I think an interesting thing about 95 is
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: the building action of.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Southern rap, right?
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: So we had the ghetto boys emerge in the late
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: eighties and early nineties in large part because they were
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: scared of white people.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: And we love that, right? Um, obviously you get my
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: mom's playing tricks on me all time.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Great single, the Scarface solo career has begin to build,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: but 95, when you go back and look at some
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: of the records that came out out of the South, like,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: so bone is starting to get it going. Um, No
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Limit is really feeling as much like a California outfit still,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: but like the second Master P album comes out during
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: that year.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: But you've also got Goody Mob Soul Food.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Comes out that year. Avon MJG, On Top of the World.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: And they've already started like with On the Outside, Look
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: It In. They really already started kicking it in. But
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: that happens. The TRU album that gives us Bout It,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Bout It comes out. So within the South, I told
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: you all those three, six records that came out. ESG
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: for the Cats in Houston. We're building toward what really
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: gets big in like 97 and 98, even if America
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: didn't realize. Mystical, Mind of Mystical, which to me is
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: an unequivocal classic record. That one comes out in 1995.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: It's all getting there, getting there, getting there to blow up.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: And if you didn't have an eye on it, you
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: didn't necessarily know what was going on, but it was happening.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: It's interesting because I think what happened for the South,
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: and that's one of my favorite eras from any region,
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: what happens for the South is is everything that was
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: used against it. You know, this idea that you got
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: a bunch of country bammers doing bass records. You had
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: a total refutation to that. You just got Andre, and
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: I don't want to short Big Boi at all, because
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: I think Big Boi is incredible. But when I heard Andre,
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: I'm like, this is a different level of creativity than
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: I'm used to anywhere, any region. And then you get CeeLo.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: And you had a taste of CeeLo on the first
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: OutKast album, but now you get him setting this album
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: off Singing and then rapping. You're like, yo, so this
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: guy can sing his ass off and rap his ass
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: off and sound soulful as hell. And the music, the
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: soundscape was incredible. It was incredible. So everything that had
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: been implied about Southerners being slow, unable to do complicated
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: rapping and having whack music. It's like, nah, I mean,
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: April on MJG. That was the thing that stood out
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: to me, too. Was it different? Hell yeah. But it
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: was dope. That music was dope. The sound was dope.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: And then MJG would come and hit you with a
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: verse like he did on Friend or Foe. That blew
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: my mind. That's one of my favorite verses of all time. Like,
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: this is incredible rapping. And so I just had this
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: feeling because I look back at New York and I
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: saw it was emerging over there. And, you know, the
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: jiggy area is in full effect. Right. And it's like,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: you know, this shit sounds whack. This sounds like Bama
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: music to me now. This sounds like brilliant music. And
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: that was a stark change for me. It was refreshing.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: and jarring and uh man it gave us some of
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: the best music i've ever heard in my.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Life and space age pimping the rare absolutely perfect rap
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: song like absolutely top to bottom they made the rap
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: slow jam that made no compromise like it is it
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: it's a love song right it's a love song coming
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: from different kinds of lovers but a love song nonetheless
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: the mystical record Hey, man, when Mystical first dropped, because
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know what this was like for people in
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: other places. So we in Houston, he's in New Orleans.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: This is pre-No Limit Mystical. And the joint that dropped
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: was Y'all Ain't Ready Yet. And so I had never
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: heard anybody who rapped like that, let alone a dude
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: from the South who rapped like that. And he's doing
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: the James Brown up and down and everything else.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: But it was like, oh, but this dude can rap.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: And then you got to Here I Go, which got
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: a second life much later from the Kings of Comedy
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: of all places.
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: Boom, boom, boom.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are we doing here?
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: And so I felt like a big part of this
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: was not just the rise of Southern rap, but the
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: South gaining more familiarity with its own rap, with the
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: rap that was going on all over. Because, again, the
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: technology is different. The radio game is different. We all
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: kind of had to learn from each other. Like when
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I talked to my homeboy who's from Mississippi. He makes
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: a very interesting point that being from Mississippi, it was
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: the only place where you got a hand on the Houston,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: a hand on the Memphis, a hand on New Orleans,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: and a hand on the Atlanta. That place, if you
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: listen to David Banner's music, you hear what I'm talking
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: about a little bit more.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: They got all of it.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Otherwise, we were still a bit reasonably fragmented in what
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: it was that we got a piece of. And so
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: now everybody was hearing what was going on for everybody else.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: And with Bouty Bouty, I'm telling you, Bouty Bouty came
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: out And it was the one where you came to
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: school and people were talking about it like a new
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: movie had come out. Like you heard about it and
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: all you could do was wait for it to come
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: on the radio. There was nothing that you could do
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: to accelerate the pace of getting it. But it was
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: one where you heard and was like, oh, nothing was
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: going to be the same for us after this one
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: came out.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Master P is whack to me, bro. Battle Battle
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: was huge and it even, I'm not going to say
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: it like dominated New York, but people in New York
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: were listening to it and the beat was undeniable. I've
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: never gotten over Master P's just inability to rap, man.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: It never clicked for me because he couldn't rap and
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: he was running around looking funny in the videos, doing
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: the high knees to the chest. And taking nothing away
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: from that movement in the moment was huge. And he
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: was a guerrilla marketer. And that was, in many ways,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: there's a through line from him, I mean, from Puffy
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: to him in terms of just like brilliant guerrilla marketing
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: and incredibly talented. you know, mediocre lyrics, right?
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: He created the idea that it's all good of itself, right?
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: He created the idea that you could be the MC
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: just on the basis of not only are we selling
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of records, but I am the mastermind of
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: selling the records. Basically, he flipped it as, yeah, you're
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: a rapper, but you would work for me, which hit
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: us all into, ooh, I don't want to.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be on the wrong side of
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: the profit equation.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he tapped into tribalism. And I actually think
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: that there are some things about tribalism that can be triumphant.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: That was a region that was totally overlooked, and suddenly
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: here we are in the middle of the spotlight. And
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: there's something good about that. And there are other things
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: and other groups that emerge from out that momentum, and
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: that's great. But something that you said about mystical makes
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: me think of a friend of mine. He divides things into, like, skills... errors, styles, errors,
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: and vibes errors. And there are some MCs who are
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: style MCs, you know, and mystical was a weird one
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: because he's a style and skills MC. Devin Adu would
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: be someone who's like a styles MC and a vibes MC.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying he's not skilled because he's stone cold
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: brilliant to me, but it's like the vibe and the
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: style of it is what hits. And so I think
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: that was what was so interesting about mystical for me.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: It's like, yo, this, this is, there, there are very
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: few people on his level in terms of being a
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: styles MC. And yet he was also a skilled MC.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: And you put all that together, like that idea you
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: just put out there, and then put that to the
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Goody Mob, which is like the most unique group that
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: anybody has thrown out here.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: Because Gip's my guy.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Like CeeLo obviously ascended to stratospheric heights that none of
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: us ever thought that we could see. Gip had this
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: crazy cool thing that was going. And with T-Kujo, who
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: was just like, do you want to fight?
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: Anytime. We could do this if you'd like to.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Timo went to energy, but like that cell therapy video
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: and just the, the track, the hook, all of it
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: was like, this was to me, that's, that was actually
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: a fairly reasonably in specific record to me.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Like it was Southern.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: It was obvious they were Southern, but the vibes did
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: not speak to me to one place or another.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: I was in the South at that time, and I
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: have to say I was totally overwhelmed by the culture
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: and charmed by it. I mean, this was the era
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: when everybody, at least in North Carolina, was going, there
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: it is, daddy, and raising the roof every other second.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: And there was something that totally fit when that record
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: came out that hit for me because of where I was,
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: where I felt like this is capturing a region in
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: a way that people need to pay attention to. I'm
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: not going to pretend that everyone I took the records
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: back to paid attention to them right but i mean
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: i think again history has vindicated in the present vindicated
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: how dope goodie mob was how dope outcast was but
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: history has vindicated them as like sort of once in
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: a generation groups right i mean i look back on
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: them i was playing those records uh the goodie mob
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: record that we're talking about and that made me go
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: back to the first outcast record and i got chills
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: man i mean this is some of the best music
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: i've ever.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: Heard I love the era also in that we discuss
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: music in a different way because flattening was a term
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: that you used earlier that I think was important because
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: I think the internet and the need for constant discourse
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: has flattened out a lot of stuff and there's not
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: nearly as much variance. At least it doesn't feel like
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: in the public expression of opinions of different records. And
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: so I talked about before, everybody could kind of have
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: their record or whatever. I'm going to run through some
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: records that we have not talked about here and we
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: don't have to stop on all of them or any
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: of them necessarily, but just to give people an understanding
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: of the volume. And for those of us who were there,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: a recollection of what the volume was. I'm going to
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: talk about these records. And sometimes they're just bringing them
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: up because of a single or a video that just
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: cut through and lasted.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: So we have not talked yet about the roots. Do
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: you want more?
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Which is a banger, right? And nothing had sounded like
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: that because it was a band. We hadn't had a
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: rap band and they made this jazz rap album. And
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: that's the coolest incarnation of Black Thought that we've ever had.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Even if you think there were better rapping versions, Cool
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: as incarnation. Two Short Cocktails came out that year. DJ
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Quick's Safe and Sound comes out that year. The Alcoholics
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Coast to Coast. E-40 in a Major Way comes out
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: in 1995. We already got to the rap. Master A
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: sitting on Chrome, which we got to a little bit.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: Naughty by Nature, Poverty's Paradise. Not a great record, but
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: gave us our annual Naughty by Nature summer jam with
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Feel Me Flow. They figured the summer out better than
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: anybody else had. Grand Poobah 2000, which a touch disappointing
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: because Poobah, that's a rapping ass motherfucker that we just
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: forget was that guy.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: I like it. It's still a single that every time
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: it comes on, people who even haven't, even if they
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: haven't heard it before, They love it. It hits at
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: parties still to this day. That's a great single. But yeah,
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: disappointing album. But yeah, Puba, you know, we're talking about
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: some people at the tail end of their runs for me.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: Like Too Short's album right before that is my favorite
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: Too Short album.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: Right? This one is okay, but the one before that,
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Right. Hold on.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: Mac-10's record with Faux Life on it?
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: Mac-10 jumping off the roof.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: That's right. That's right. With the smile. Running off the roof.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: He did not jump off the roof. He ran off
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: the roof.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: And ordered McDonald's as he was on the getaway from
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: robbing these people. Ski Low I Wish, which gave us
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: an all-time great video that is hilarious too. That's the
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: most self-deprecating video anybody has ever done. The song, that's
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: what it is. But it didn't matter because the video
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: was perfect.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: Well, the Mac-10 running off the roof, too, is a
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: good segue to, it's like that, should I jump off
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: the roof? Psych, because I wouldn't be living proof. Group Home,
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: one of the worst, best albums in history, and clear-cut
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: proof that what DJ Premier valued was unique voices.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: And he says it out loud, right? He doesn't even
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: lie about it. He says it out loud. The Junior
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Mafia record came out that gave us not one, but
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: two classic singles, and a classic single that had a
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: classic remix.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Big A-Man, that's the homeboy Hall of Fame move right there.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: It's Biggie Smalls being like, hey, man, I'm going to
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: write y'all an album so y'all can get some paper.
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: And the remix jumps off of Beef with Boot Camp Clip,
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: which ends up in a beatdown for, I believe, the
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: OGC rappers. I think Sterling Wonder specifically in D &
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: D Studio, maybe. So a lot of weird history there.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: And the most callous B-line of all.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: That's okay, she was old anyway. How do you just
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: keep rapping after you have said this? That third Daz
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: FX album, Hold It Down. And I don't know how
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: well you remember that one, but I loved that one.
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: I remember it well. It had the Mobb Deep remix
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: to it. It had some E-Z-Mo B-beats. It had a
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: whole lot of producers on there I liked. And it
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: was good for them to bounce back from the second album,
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: which I think was very disappointing for people.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, I would agree with that.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: WC in the Mass, I mean, excuse me, Coogee Rap 456,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: WC in the Mass, Circle Curb Serving, AZ Do or Die,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: where we always wanted it for AZ. It never quite
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: made it over because, I mean, he jumps off the
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: scene with Life's a Bitch, and we're just like, oh. Like,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: he's kind of like the original Cannabis, except Do or
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Die was way better than the Cannabis album.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: Well, speaking of cannabis, you got Mr.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Smith.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: You do? Oh, yeah, we're getting there. He dropped this year.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: KRS-One dropped the self-titled KRS-One album.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: Which is okay.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: I think I skipped over to Looney's drop, Operation Stackola,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: and I got five on it.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: So there was a measure of controversy, though, with that
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: single because the sample was so simple, right?
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: It felt like a bit of a loop.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: They were rapping their asses off over it, but there
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: was a purist backlash to that song that clearly stood up.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: 30 years later. Onyx, all we got is us.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Them little dudes is this tall and bald-headed and thugging,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: but they always brought.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: It, man.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: The former barbers who used to dance to house music.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: I remember when Charlamagne was interviewing Fred Drever, and he said,
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: so you used to dance? He said, I used to
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: dance on niggas' foreheads. He fades in character. Last Days
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: was a classic record off there. Most people loved that one.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: And Channel Live came out that year, and I bring
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: that up because Mad-ism is is one of the times
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: that KRS still sounded like BDP KRS. He was so
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: raw on that record. Every verse on Madism from him
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: is just incredible.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Like that's a record that mattered a lot to me
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: at the time that it wasn't until we were going back.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh yeah, that one. Cypress Hill, Temple's
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: a Boom.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Because Cypress Hill is a wild group to look back
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: on the arc of their career. Because their first album,
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: all-time classic. And then we looked up and somehow they
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: were white boys' favorite rap group.
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: And none of us saw that coming ever.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It was weird for me because... they were one
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: of the first non-Black groups that I saw. hardcore hood
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: dudes listening to that first album like it was the
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: best album out, right? And then I went off and
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: got a scholarship to prep school, and those kids were
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: listening to the second album, Black Sunday. And I'm like, whoa,
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: this is a real... switching fan base here they turned
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: into willie nelson or something real quick so that was
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: that was off-putting for me and i got very confused
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: by cypher cell but the dog.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: Dog dog pound dog food i.
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: Think in real time a lot of people were disappointed
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: by it and history again has vindicated people love that
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: album they go back to to all of those that
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: those like chronic and doggy style era right albums and
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: that's the one that like the music aficionados i know
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: they're like actually the sound of this one is the best.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: It's the dre mix right it's you know it's daz
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: beats it's very similar to like doggy style notion right
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: like daz had some beats and dr dre was like
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: hey let me show you how to produce huh yeah
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: let me show you how you actually put all this
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: stuff together um eight ball and mjg on top of
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: the world we got to that one um The Far
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Side Lab Cab in California is an interesting one because
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: I looked it up. These are the first Dilla singles.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: The first J Dilla single back when he was JD,
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: but his first single was Running. He did four tracks
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: on that record and three of them were probably of
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: the four best tracks on there.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: He did Bullshit. He did Why. He did Running and
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: he did Drop.
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: Did he do She Said as well or just the
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: She Said remix? Yes. Because, yeah, that's a banger too.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: And on that Alcoholics album, you get a lot of
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: people's first glimpse at Madlib.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: Who come to dominate, you know, for another 20 years
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: after that, right? So, yeah, there are a lot of
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: people who are making their debuts. And let's not forget,
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: this is an obscure one for a lot of people,
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: but Showbiz and AG dropped this album, Goodfellas. The reason
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: I bring it up is because they had that one
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: DJ premiere produced single called the nighttime remix of Next Level.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: And that's one that ends up in 8 Mile with
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: Eminem rapping over it. And it's just been one of
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: those beats that people have been freestyling over now for
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: 30 years.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And you mentioned before LL Cool J, Mr.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Smith, don't call it a comeback part two, except that's
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: what LL just gave up on the fellas.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Like, and it's funny, because what happened was, he did
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: Mama Said Knock You Out.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: We were like, welcome back, LL.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: He tried gangster rap with 14 Shots to the Dome.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: We was like, hey, chill out. And he was like,
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: you know what? Fuck y'all.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: I'm rapping for them for the rest of time.
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: And two of those are near perfect pop rap songs, man.
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: Doing it, and what's the, who do you love? Loungin'.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: Those are incredible. Hey Lover, he lost me a little.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: Was that the one where he's tonguing it down with
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: Vanilla Ice Cream? That wasn't working for me. But also,
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: I love that sample. It's just that when they did
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: the Cooley High Paradise remix for Camp Low, they flipped
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: that Michael Jackson sample better. So I held that against.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Also, some singles that came out that year. I pointed
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: out because it's important, not because it's dope, but Gangsta's
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: Paradise for Coolio had 1995 in a chokehold.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: There's there's it was it was everywhere.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Um argument for the greatest rap single of all time
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: is the one more chance stay with me remix biggie
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: smalls which comes out in 95 like it is it's
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: up it's it's up.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: There yeah.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: Well, refresh my memory. Was How High out in 95?
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: Was that when that came out?
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, because I believe the show soundtrack comes out that year.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, How High.
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: Did come out. Because that was an all-time single as well.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, How High came out. Also all-time single. The All
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: I Need remix from Meth came out that year. We
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: got through the Junior Mafia joints. First of the Mother,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: Both Us, and Harmony. We got to that. Yeah, like
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: this was... And this is not the year that we're
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: doing the series on, right? We were able to kind
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: of run through this year in one episode. The year
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: for the series is coming 1996. So how much of
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: a banger did 96 have to be for you youngsters?
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: It was a thing, man. We got the 96 draft
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: and 96 in wrap in the same year.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: Can I throw out two underrated? Joints from that year?
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: Mike Geronimo, The Natural, had like five songs on there
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: and remixes that I thought were dope. And there's a
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: group out of L.A. called The Knots that has an
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: album called World Unlimited, I think. It's a vibes album.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: You put it on and you smoke and you chill.
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: And I don't think anybody was really listening to it
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: back then, but I still listen to it now.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, I would throw one last album that came out
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: in 1995, a name that I'm sure you have not
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: thought of in 30 years.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Brother Lynch hung, dropped a record.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Because there was a different kind of edgelord rap era
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: that comes around, right? Like the Rave Diggins, I think,
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: come in 97 with their version of it. The Ghetto
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Boys were definitely giving you some of this. But yeah,
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: Brother Lynch Hung was definitely giving you that.
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: I think he's the one who has that viral video
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: of him and a whole bunch of people freestyling. If
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: you ever look it up, one of the weirdest freestyle videos,
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: you'll ever hear that and Cool Keef freestyling with the
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: Alcoholics and Exhibit. He thought Xzibit's name was Everlast. These
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: are two of the funniest rap videos you'll ever see
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: in your life. Look them up.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Brother Lynch was at a time where he became a
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: representative for they own some crazy shit, right? People ain't
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: never heard of Brother Lynch record once in their lives
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: because that wasn't the point. If somebody made a reference
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: to Brother Lynch, you knew what that meant. Like Gangsta
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: Nip from Houston. was also on that same kick. Like, yo, man,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: it was just, I don't know why. Maybe I'm just
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: getting old. But even just throwing out some of these
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: random names just kind of makes me feel good.
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: There's another guy from, I think he's from Houston, who
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: comes out that year as well. And it's a guy
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: I never really listen to heavy, but people will drop him.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: Scarface will drop his name here. Kay Rhino came out
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: in 95 as well. Count Basie's debut was in 1995.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: Weird album. He got dropped from his major almost immediately.
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: But he's a guy who ended up being something on
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: the underground scene going forward. There were so many interesting
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: albums in that year. And that Farside album, that marks
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: two albums that were like comets in hip hop. Because
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden, they didn't matter anymore. They broke up.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: They didn't matter. Fat Lip is smoking crack. Their producer,
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: Jay Swift, is smoking crack. And you never really hear
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: from them again. But they had this period where these
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: two albums were two of the coolest artsy albums that
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: ever came out in rap history.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Yep, Slim Kid Trey on the list of famous people
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: who tried to holla at my girl.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: Whoa.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: It seemed to work out okay for me, but on
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: the list, because here was the problem for him.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: She just knew him. He was on the real world
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: very briefly.
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: I remember.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: Dating a woman, I think it was Real World Chicago.
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: I can't remember which Real World, but he was dating
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: a woman there. And that's how she knew him. And
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, trying to holler at that white woman, then
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: trying to holler at her was not, that was not
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: going to work. She did not think of him as,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: there comes a time in every man's life.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: No, no, no. My dear, my dear, my dear. That
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: wasn't what she saw.
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: She told him there's other fish in the sea. Yes, yes.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: That is it. But hey, that's my man, Jason England.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: Google him. Check him out.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: He did a piece on American fiction in 2024. That's
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: one of the best pieces of cultural criticism. You're going
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: to find also a more recent one on One Battle
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: After Another. You can check those out at Defector. My brother,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you joining us for this, man.
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: Always, man. It was a pleasure. All right, man.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: here on The Right Time. Remember, the series on 1996
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: is coming in 2026. Check us out. My man Ryan
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: Brumley handling everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir. Remember,
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: follow The Right Time. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: give us five stars. You only give us four stars.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. And we'll
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: talk to you guys in a couple of days.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: Take it easy.