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Episode 111 - The Story That Invented All Stories · Sorta Sophisticated

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Welcome to Sorta Sophisticated with Pete and Amanda. Okay, so here's how we're starting. I got a question for you.
• 0:07
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 0:08
  Speaker A: What do you know about the Odyssey?
• 0:09
  Speaker B: The book.
• 0:10
  Speaker A: The book.
• 0:11
  Speaker B: The book.
• 0:13
  Speaker A: That's it.
• 0:14
  Speaker B: Greek mythology.
• 0:16
  Speaker A: Okay. Do we know who's in it? No. Who stars in it? The main character, Zeus. Okay. No. Do you have any idea what it's about?
• 0:26
  Speaker B: No.
• 0:27
  Speaker A: Nothing. Okay. And do you know who wrote it? This is your episode. This is your episode. We are doing a whole podcast on the Odyssey. Do you know why we're doing it?
• 0:39
  Speaker B: There is a movie coming out.
• 0:40
  Speaker A: There is a movie. Here we go. Right? Because we're being pop culture relevant, there's a movie coming out, the Odyssey. Matt Damon. Oh, he stars as Odysseus. And Yes.
• 0:53
  Speaker B: Dang it, I should have guessed Odysseus.
• 0:54
  Speaker A: This is big. This is big. Okay.
• 0:56
  Speaker B: Only other one besides Poseidon.
• 0:57
  Speaker A: Let me give you. Well, Poseidon, that's good. He's in it. Yeah. So I guess Christopher Nolan decides he's gonna make this blockbuster.
• 1:06
  Speaker B: He's like a big director, isn't he?
• 1:07
  Speaker A: He's a huge director.
• 1:08
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:08
  Speaker A: Oppenheimer director. Like. Oh, yeah. No, this is big. This is nuts. This is ensemble galore. And it's happening. And we need to.
• 1:17
  Speaker B: So what was the budget?
• 1:18
  Speaker A: We need $250 million. $250 million means movie. But here's the deal. Like, all things we do, people are gonna watch this movie.
• 1:26
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:26
  Speaker A: And then they're like, what's this all about? And so we have to give them the backstory on how in 700 BC, this all started. What is that? How many years ago is that? 2,000? 2,700 years ago? Dur. Anyway, but you get my point. Like, nobody really understands how to put all this together. So all these kids are just gonna go watch this movie, and they're not gonna understand that this was literally the story that invented all stories. This was the first story.
• 1:53
  Speaker B: Okay?
• 1:53
  Speaker A: Before the story, no stories. People just stood around and spoke in short phrases. But this, this is big, Amanda. And here's our promise today. Okay. Cause, you know I always love the promise.
• 2:03
  Speaker B: You do?
• 2:03
  Speaker A: Okay. Why? The Odyssey, still, literally, to this day, is the most influential piece of storytelling in all of human history. Thus the title of our episode. Right. The story that invented all stories. Okay. Two, the cheat code. Because we gotta give cheat codes. Cause you know us with the cheat codes, right? Always for understanding it, even if you don't wanna read it. So that's right up your alley. Okay. And then three, of course, A pre release take on. Is this movie going to be ready?
• 2:27
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 2:27
  Speaker A: Because it's totally going to be worth it. Okay. So welcome back to Sword Sophisticated. Here we are, episode 111. 111.
• 2:34
  Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. It's a big deal.
• 2:36
  Speaker A: Yeah, let's do that.
• 2:36
  Speaker B: It's like triple sticks from, like, cricket.
• 2:39
  Speaker A: Yes. Here we go. Wicked. The wicket and cricket.
• 2:41
  Speaker B: Wicked.
• 2:41
  Speaker A: Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right, Ready? Word of the week so we can go.
• 2:44
  Speaker B: Let's go.
• 2:45
  Speaker A: Wifty. Wifty.
• 2:47
  Speaker B: W I F T y. Wifty I brought in. It has to be something to do with cricket.
• 2:52
  Speaker A: Is it?
• 2:53
  Speaker B: I feel like.
• 2:54
  Speaker A: No, not at all.
• 2:55
  Speaker B: Wifty cricket.
• 2:57
  Speaker A: Wifty is what you do after you toot. You use your hand back there. That's a wiffty.
• 3:03
  Speaker B: No, it's not.
• 3:03
  Speaker A: Yes, it is.
• 3:04
  Speaker B: No, it's not.
• 3:04
  Speaker A: No. Okay. Wifty is an adjective that means airheaded or scatter. Like ditzy.
• 3:12
  Speaker B: All right.
• 3:12
  Speaker A: Ditzy, Ditzy. Wifty. Yes. I have some friends that are wifty. Maybe.
• 3:16
  Speaker B: Yeah. Is this like, maybe, Maybe.
• 3:18
  Speaker A: I have a co host who might be a little. Oh, I'm very with from time to time.
• 3:21
  Speaker B: Here we are.
• 3:22
  Speaker A: Right.
• 3:22
  Speaker B: But this isn't like a Latin word, is it?
• 3:24
  Speaker A: A lot? No.
• 3:24
  Speaker B: No, it can't be.
• 3:25
  Speaker A: I don't think there's any origin on this. I looked, and don't get me wrong, like, maybe I didn't do enough digging, but there was no real origin here. This was just, like, showed up in America in the 1970s. And it's like one of those words. It sounds like an insult, but it's not really an insult. Because how can you be mad at somebody who's wifty when they're just being themselves?
• 3:41
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 3:41
  Speaker A: Like, okay, my dear friend, Gail Taher, I love you. Shout out to Gail. Totally wifty, but, like, authentically herself, which is amazing. So you just gotta, like, love wifty people. What are you gonna do? Yeah, you know what I mean? Even though it comes off as sort of like, you think it's gonna be like, an insult, it's not at all. Okay, well, wifty it is wifty with the Odyssey.
• 4:02
  Speaker B: But, like, how can you be whifty with the Odyssey? How can you be ditzy about the Odyssey?
• 4:06
  Speaker A: This is your job.
• 4:06
  Speaker B: It's very, like, figure this out deep. Okay, well, here we are.
• 4:09
  Speaker A: So before we start, if you like what you're listening to, hit subscribe. Follow us. New episodes come out weekly on your favorite podcast. Platform. I don't know if that, that works enough because I think we're getting like one new follower a week from this.
• 4:20
  Speaker B: Okay, One is one.
• 4:21
  Speaker A: One is one. Okay. Is that. Is that.
• 4:23
  Speaker B: Really appreciate you.
• 4:23
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 4:24
  Speaker B: Yay.
• 4:24
  Speaker A: Hopefully by next year, we have 365 more. All right, here's how this is going to start. So the thing is that nobody, like, ever really tells you about Homer. Wait, first of all, Homer, the guy who wrote Odyssey.
• 4:33
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 4:33
  Speaker A: Okay. You've got that. We're sort of sophisticated. Okay. My point is it wasn't even going to be a book. It wasn't like made to be a book. That wasn't how this whole thing started, like 2700 years ago at all. For like hundreds and hundreds of years. This was orally passed down verbally or orally? I don't know. One of the two. We'll say verbally because orally could sound like there's a sexual connotation. So I'm going to say verbally passed down, even though if that's not right. But it was an oral tradition. That's what it was. It wasn't just the oral tradition you're thinking about, but it was an oral tradition.
• 5:02
  Speaker B: I'm not thinking about anything inappropriate. You are.
• 5:05
  Speaker A: But my point is, from generation to generation, it passed down as a story. So like in ancient Greek times, this. There's a tradition, it's called, oh, my God, I'm going to butcher this. Were basically these professional, like storytellers. They would travel from town to town and perform at festivals and banquets and whatever, kings and queens and their courts and all the things they did. Right. That was like what they do. And they would stand up in front of crowds and from memory recite hours and hours of the Odyssey. Like epic poetry in general, but like the Odyssey was like an epic poem. You know, it was a poem. At least that was the idea. It was a poem. Right. And they got so good at this. Like, the really good ones, they would do it by character. So they would change their voices and do the whole. They were like a one man show, doing the whole. Whatever it is. 24 books of the Odyssey, which I think is incredible that someone could commit that much shit to memory. This is like Hamilton, but like a whole nother level up from Hamilton.
• 6:02
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's something about like recitations back then, I guess that was. That's what it was.
• 6:06
  Speaker A: It was their form of entertainment, though.
• 6:07
  Speaker B: We had it all in the palm of our hand. Right.
• 6:10
  Speaker A: Listen, there was two things they did for fun they either drank. They either did. Okay, three. They drank. They did this, or like, they got eaten by a bunch of lions and tigers in the coliseum. That was kind of was pretty basic.
• 6:22
  Speaker B: This is like a professional. Like this.
• 6:23
  Speaker A: No, I know.
• 6:24
  Speaker B: This was their role in society.
• 6:26
  Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. So. So then it's kind of complicated how it turned into a book, but basically, as far as, like, historians know or are guessing, I don't know. They think it was probably first written down somewhere around 700 BC. So before 700 BC this was. I don't even know how many years it goes back. Like, there's no before Adam and Eve. Okay. That's how far it goes back. Really far. Yeah. Okay, I'm making it up, but you get the idea.
• 6:47
  Speaker B: I mean, it's incredible, right?
• 6:49
  Speaker A: So it's around 700 B.C. they think that it got written down, but by that time, it had already been performed so many different ways that they think they just took the best version of the stories.
• 6:59
  Speaker B: It's part of, like, storytelling. Right, Right. It's not always necessarily true, and they
• 7:03
  Speaker A: were all a little different, but they had the same through line. Bingo. And so they just. Somebody finally was like, okay, we're gonna put this all down and have one version. And this is the best, you know, ultimate version of the story. So that's sort of like how it got written down and turned into the Odyssey by Homer that we know today. That we know today.
• 7:25
  Speaker B: Okay. So it may or may not be the original, but it's close. Very close.
• 7:29
  Speaker A: Yeah. You can't even call. There's no real original story. But here's. Here's what even gets so much. This is insane. When I was reading about this, because I'm like, okay, Homer was the smartest guy in the world to write all this down. You ready for this?
• 7:39
  Speaker B: But it's. Homer wrote all of the story. Like, he compiled all of it to create the audience. So that's what I thought, but it's not his story.
• 7:45
  Speaker A: So this is what I thought. So. So, so far, so good.
• 7:47
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 7:47
  Speaker A: And now true. Well, we're going to go even further here. We don't think Homer even existed.
• 7:52
  Speaker B: I'm sorry, what? Yes, What?
• 7:54
  Speaker A: So we think we historians and scholars, not. Not me, not your podcast host. I have no idea. Yes. So there is absolutely no evidence that a man named Homer ever existed. Yes. No birth record, no grave. No writings about him from any time in his lifetime, after his lifetime.
• 8:13
  Speaker B: So whoever compiled it, we've decided.
• 8:15
  Speaker A: Historians and scholars have decided Homer. So it's like, there's like a debate on this, actually. So some believe that it was just a name that got made up, attached to the story.
• 8:25
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 8:25
  Speaker A: Like you just said. Because a bunch of people sat in a room, like, how they made the Bible. They were like, these books are divine. And I'm sorry, I'm not gonna go to hell, because I just compared the Odyssey of the Bible. That wasn't my point, but you get the idea. And the other side is that there's historians that believe there was actually like one exceptionally talented poet, like, to your point, somewhere around 700 BC, who pulled all these stories together and. And wrote them. So, like, inspired by one person that they're calling Homer. So they're attributing the name to somebody, but since they don't have his name. So there are people saying the man existed or the woman existed, but his name wasn't really Homer. There's other people saying, no, it was a bunch of really smart poets that got in a room or scholars that wrote it all down and compiled it. So anyway, that's wild. It ain't Homer.
• 9:12
  Speaker B: It's wild.
• 9:13
  Speaker A: I thought that was one of the coolest takes, right? Let's just start with the fact that. Who knew that?
• 9:17
  Speaker B: I think we just end the episode now. I feel like now you're sort of sophisticated again, back to.
• 9:21
  Speaker A: Back to when I had to read this in English lit. Like, that would have been a cool start if you would have. Instead of just opening the book and starting with the first chapter. If teacher would have explained some of this, it would have been like, this is a little more interesting. Maybe I'll follow along.
• 9:34
  Speaker B: I can listen a little bit.
• 9:35
  Speaker A: Right.
• 9:36
  Speaker B: Okay. So Homer doesn't exist.
• 9:38
  Speaker A: Homer might exist.
• 9:39
  Speaker B: Maybe asterisks.
• 9:41
  Speaker A: It might have been the most sophisticated
• 9:42
  Speaker B: person on the planet. What is the Odyssey about? Because you keep mentioning how there's a bunch of different poems that were brought together, but has an underlying thread. And so.
• 9:51
  Speaker A: No, but it's like, it's a journey. It's an epic journey. Yes, it's a story. So it wasn't like a bunch of random things put together. I mean, it's all the through line of the story of Odysseus and his journey home. Like, there is a real story after the Trojan War. After the Trojan War. Right. Okay. So it all starts right at the end of the Trojan War. You remember the Trojan War? Do you know anything about the Trojan War? Do I have to do a podcast episode on the Trojan War?
• 10:11
  Speaker B: Go Trojans.
• 10:12
  Speaker A: Okay, here we are.
• 10:14
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's how they won the battle. They were gifted the horse. The horse, inside the horse, the whole thing.
• 10:19
  Speaker A: Okay, yeah. So basically, 1200 BC, the Greeks and the Trojans are fighting over this woman named Helen.
• 10:23
  Speaker B: Yes, Helen of Troy.
• 10:24
  Speaker A: Yes, Helen of Troy. I mean, talk about hot, right? Like, I don't even know. I would like to meet this woman.
• 10:28
  Speaker B: Yeah, but she's like a queen of
• 10:29
  Speaker A: something, and she's the wife of the king of Sparta. This is the whole point in Greece. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So the whole idea was that the Trojans stole her, like the city of Troy, and the Greeks wanted her back because, you know, you can't just go steal the king of Sparta's wife. Like, that's not cool. So for 10 years she's over there. Anyway, okay, so our guy Odysseus, he's the main character, right? So he is the king of another city state in Greece called Ithaca. And he comes up with this badass plan, which was like the whole infamous Trojan horse where they rolled the Trojan horse into the city of Troy, left it as a gift, but really inside were a bunch of Greek soldiers. Oh, my God, that must have been smelly in there. So they were sweating it out inside of it for how long? Like the whole night. Right. And then it came to nightfall, they all snuck out the whole city of Troy. They burned it to the ground. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spoiler alert. The Greeks won. And our boy Odysseus becomes a national hero overnight. Which I think is fascinating because what was the king of Sparta doing at this time? Like, what's Odysseus doing to save the hell? Why ain't the king doing this?
• 11:22
  Speaker B: Well, it was, but Sparta had its own issues.
• 11:24
  Speaker A: But, but I'm just saying. Okay, if my wife. Let's bring this back for a second. If my wife was stolen for 10 years, I don't know that I would hire or let another king from another city state in, like my neighboring town be like, I'm gonna get your wife. Because I'd be afraid that we would then run into another issue, which is Helen is now saved. And now Helen likes other guy who saved her.
• 11:48
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 11:48
  Speaker A: Meanwhile, I'm at home doing what? Planning a party. What am I doing? I don't know. It doesn't feel right.
• 11:54
  Speaker B: Fair enough. Okay, so the Trojan horse goes in, they take her back, Helena, Troy, give her back to the king, and then Odysseus heads home. What happened? Doesn't he get like.
• 12:04
  Speaker A: Well, that's the whole. That's the whole story.
• 12:05
  Speaker B: Owned royalty or something because of all of his efforts.
• 12:08
  Speaker A: No, not even close. You have to reread this book. It's actually excellent. It really is a good book. No, it's well done. You would think that's like the whole book and it'd be that simple, but not at all. So after the Greeks win the war, they're on the way out of Troy. But they're not respectful, okay? They're not speculating. So some of the Greek soldiers decide to, let's say, assault a few of the women of Troy.
• 12:31
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 12:32
  Speaker A: If you understand what I'm putting down here, inside of Athena's temple, Remember the cup?
• 12:37
  Speaker B: No, no.
• 12:38
  Speaker A: Yes, Right. So Athena, of course, who was the Greeks biggest supporter up until the moment that a lot of these nasty things were happening in her temple, decides okay, pretty much fuck the Greeks and I'm no longer on your side anymore. So she gets pissed off and disowns the entire Greek army. Okay, so on their way home now, they're already like losing favor with the gods.
• 12:59
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 13:00
  Speaker A: They get sidetracked on an island and I don't know if you remember this part, Odysseus basically blinds Polyphemus, the cyclops. Oh yes, you remember the Cyclops, right. So I mean, guys got one eye and then you blind him. I mean that's bullshit. If you had two eyes, it's one thing, right?
• 13:12
  Speaker B: Because like Poseidon son or something.
• 13:14
  Speaker A: Yes. Okay, so now Poseidon decides that he is going to wage war on Odysseus and all the Greeks. And, and so now the gods are furious. And this whole rest of the book is basically how Odysseus is trying to get home. And the gods are trying to kill him and prevent him from getting home because they hate his guts.
• 13:33
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 13:33
  Speaker A: All because some Greeks decided to win
• 13:37
  Speaker B: some, which in all fairness, you gotta smite some people when they're misbehaving.
• 13:39
  Speaker A: All I'm saying, you gotta smite. Right, I like that.
• 13:43
  Speaker B: So it's a ten long year process.
• 13:45
  Speaker A: It is a very long process.
• 13:47
  Speaker B: And then what happens?
• 13:48
  Speaker A: Everybody dies at the end and is sad. Oh, just kidding. So yeah, it's all about the journey home. Then the adventure story starts. So you go to the island of the cannibals, right? And they have to figure out how to get out of there. And then, and they got the, what was her name? Cersei. The, the. He gets turned into a pig at another island or something like that. Then he goes to the underworld. Hades. You remember Hades from our episode, right? He goes the underworld. He's got to figure that Whole thing out. He's got to sail past the island of the Sirens. The. The women that sing the songs that like. Right, okay. There's a whole thing there. And by the way. Yeah. This whole time, first of all, Helen, they're trying to like, you know, save and get home.
• 14:21
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 14:21
  Speaker A: Bring her back. But Penelope, which is Odysseus wife, is waiting for him at home.
• 14:27
  Speaker B: And is she waiting or is she waiting?
• 14:29
  Speaker A: She's waiting. No, she's waiting. No, no, no, no, no, this is good. She's waiting because all the suitors are coming after her now. Because now Odysseus has been gone for 10 years to try to get back to her. So she's doing the best she can to like, stave off all of the suitors that are coming after her. So, like, it's kind of a shit show.
• 14:47
  Speaker B: So then what's the actual, like, sophisticated take on all of this? Because the surface, it sounds like it's just like, I don't know, Tom Sawyer in the Greeks time. Why do we care?
• 14:56
  Speaker A: Because we like storytelling. That's why we care.
• 14:58
  Speaker B: Well, I know.
• 14:59
  Speaker A: That's why we care. What do you want?
• 15:00
  Speaker B: It's a $250 million project.
• 15:02
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. Because. Okay, so here's the thing, right?
• 15:05
  Speaker B: So we would had for Spartha.
• 15:07
  Speaker A: Okay. Do you remember? I'm going to say Homer's other book, but I don't know if it's Homer's other book. Do you remember the other book? The Iliad.
• 15:12
  Speaker B: Oh, yes.
• 15:13
  Speaker A: You had to read the Iliad and the Odyssey. I don't know if you had read them both, but whatever. Okay, so the Iliad is all about like, war and pain and sacrifice and man things and dying in battle and blood and gore and all that. Right. But the Odyssey, I think why it's so such a big deal? It's the opposite of all of that. So this is about a dude who literally is just trying to get home to his wife. I mean, I don't want to say it's a love story, but let's just start with that. Right? And it's not about brawn. It's about determination. No, no. It's about his wits. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's about his brain. It's about wits. It's about how to out think and outmaneuver instead of muscle. So I think the whole idea is he's very human. And so you remember, I think. I don't remember what episode. We talked about this where the more that we can relate to the Character. I think it was the Greek mythology episode. The more that we can relate. That's why we made up some of the stories about the gods. So this was the first time that anybody could relate to the humanness of. Of a hero. Because before this, any story, it was more. It was more like Moana, right. Like, what's his name? Maui. Like half God, half man, or Achilles or Hercules. Like, people knew they weren't real. This is the first story where humans could connect on, like, a visceral level and recognize that he wasn't just a muscle man figuring this out. He was a regular guy using all of his capacity. And that is what struck home. And that is what made it, like I said at the beginning of the story that invented all stories because of how smart he was. That's sort of the. The through line. Does that make sense? Yeah, I guess. How relatable he was. I don't. Not just smart.
• 16:44
  Speaker B: That's what, I guess what got people interested in it. Right. And.
• 16:47
  Speaker A: Yeah, right. Because at the root of it, like,
• 16:48
  Speaker B: continue to be a story that people
• 16:51
  Speaker A: passed on because you want. So two things. One, he's human. Two, he's just trying to get home and all. Like, I'm going to quote proverbial home. So, like, he's physically trying to get home. But, like, that's all. That's all we really want. Like, what is home to us? Home is heaven. Home is your husband, home is your family, home. Like, whatever you want to call getting back to home, that is what we want. And that is like, this guy was Shakespeare before Shakespeare. Well, this guy. Maybe a few poets in a room together, I don't even know, but you get the idea that make sense.
• 17:18
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 17:19
  Speaker A: So that's. I think that's the heaviness of this. Where again, I understand if you're 14 years old, sitting in a freshman lit classroom, maybe you wouldn't sign up for all that. But if you and I were sitting in the room explaining, yeah, I don't
• 17:30
  Speaker B: think they made it relatable.
• 17:31
  Speaker A: That. Right. That's my point. But if I looked at my daughter, who's like, I looked at Ruth at 14 years old, I'm like, this is a story about home. This is a story about a man who's trying to get to his wife. This is a story about love. This is a story about romance. This story about outwitting and outsmarting. Now, do you want to listen to story? Have you ever watched Princess Bride?
• 17:45
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 17:45
  Speaker A: So greatest. Like one of the greatest movies. And what's. What's his name? Peter Falk. He reads it to the kid from Wonder Years. I don't remember his name. Sorry. Oh, my God. He's super famous. But like, it's a grandpa reading the story to the kid. And the kid thinks he's gonna be bored, but he's not bored, and he loves it. This is exactly the same thing.
• 18:01
  Speaker B: Love it.
• 18:01
  Speaker A: Okay, there we are. That's it.
• 18:03
  Speaker B: Okay. So then what is my cliffnote version of this poem? Because I think you said there was a cheat code or you were gonna make it a cheat code or do some Jedi mind trick. Voodoo magic.
• 18:12
  Speaker A: No, he wins, he gets home, it's excellent, he makes out with his wife.
• 18:16
  Speaker B: There's like 24 books.
• 18:17
  Speaker A: That's it.
• 18:18
  Speaker B: In like one big book. Chapters or whatever you call it.
• 18:22
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. That's very sophisticated. No, you actually can't call them chapters. Fun fact. So if you want to talk about this with your friends, don't be saying chapters. They're books. There's 24 books. Like the Bible. I know I shouldn't say, but. Right. You have to call them books.
• 18:35
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 18:36
  Speaker A: Yeah. So each book has its own unique story in there. Okay, so here's what you need to know. Cheat code. So that's actually the first one. Right. It's the structure. Right. Books, chapters, it's the way they put it together. So it's 24 books. Little episodes, if you will. But it doesn't start at the beginning. It starts in the middle. So you have to remember that part. So Odysseus is trapped on some island where some goddess named Calypso won't let him leave. Then it goes back and fills in what happened before through flashbacks. So be ready for flashbacks. Also, I have a little fun fact at the end about flashbacks that are
• 19:06
  Speaker B: going to be good.
• 19:06
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Second, there are three stories happening at the same time. So it's not just one boring linear. Odysseus goes from here to here to here. No. So this is. Skips around a lot. So you have Odysseus, like that's one main line. Then you have Penelope and the whole her trying to keep the suitors away from her. Right. That's a huge part of this whole thing. And then you have their son.
• 19:29
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 19:30
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. I don't even know how to say it. Telemachus. Telemachus. I don't know. I never knew how to say that. So he was growing up and deciding that he was going to go, like, take a search party out to look for his dad and all three of these stories end up converging at some point, but it jumps around sort of like, like a modern day TV show.
• 19:47
  Speaker B: So it's like a braid.
• 19:48
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 19:49
  Speaker B: Braided story.
• 19:50
  Speaker A: Absolutely. Which. That was novel for the day. Like I know it's a novel. That was, that was funny I said that, but that's not my point. It was very novel. It didn't exist. That's not how they told stories. So this was one of the first stories ever written.
• 20:03
  Speaker B: Multi perspective at one point in time.
• 20:06
  Speaker A: We take it for granted now that that's how we want to watch all of our shows. That's why I called it the story that invented all stories. Because that is a piece that they wove together. That did not happen.
• 20:14
  Speaker B: Oh, interesting.
• 20:14
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's like the cheat code, right? You just need to know those two things, right? The structure of the story and how it's all put together and like the way that they braided it together. Does that make sense?
• 20:22
  Speaker B: Got it.
• 20:22
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 20:22
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 20:23
  Speaker A: Okay then spoiler for anybody who's actually going to read the book, which you probably won't. Who are we kidding? Odysseus actually makes it home, but he comes in disguise. This is the greatest part. So it is not just that simple, like as a beggar. Okay, here we go. Because he doesn't trust anybody now because he's been gone for so long, he wants to see what's really going on, so he disguises himself, right? And then there's this moment where Penelope is still trying to hold off all these suitors. So she sets up this contest and says whoever can string Odysseus's bow, like for his bow and arrow and shoot an arrow through 12 axe handles will get to marry her. So all these are just delay tactics for her.
• 20:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:55
  Speaker A: So anyway, it's a total shit show from the start because none of these guys know what they're doing and they don't even know how to string a bow, let alone like shoot it through ax handles. And then this old beggar, Odysseus, gets up from the corner and asks, hey, can I try? He strings the bow, shoots it right through all 12 axe handles, nails it, and then just turns and starts shooting all the suitors. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
• 21:12
  Speaker B: Really aggressive.
• 21:13
  Speaker A: Kills them all. Yes, well, he's pissed. They're trying to get. They're trying to get his woman. So here's the thing.
• 21:17
  Speaker B: He was gone for 10 years.
• 21:18
  Speaker A: He does fuck around. Okay, listen. Okay, so basically. Hold on, I lied. There's One more cheat code then. Okay, so. Because when you think about it, like, homecoming, I think, is the last part that you really need to know now that I'm like, putting this all together here. Duh. So you have Odysseus coming home. You have identity because he's constantly disguising himself to, like, figure out how to, like, get through all of the traps of the gods. And then you have loyalty. You have the idea of him being loyal to his wife, his wife being loyal to him, him being loyal to his son, like. Like all of those pieces and that tie back to Penelope. So if I. If I redo my cheat code, it's. You got to sort of think through the structure, then you got to think through the braid of the stories all happening at the same time. And then you finally have to think of this whole idea of a homecoming, identity and loyalty and the journey, huh?
• 22:04
  Speaker B: And the journey, yes.
• 22:05
  Speaker A: Right. And then that should make you sophisticated enough on, like, the whole book without actually reading the book and pretending you could drop some serious lore with. With Odysseus. I will say one thing, though, that we haven't talked about, which I think is super important. Penelope was known to be, I mean, a little wifty.
• 22:22
  Speaker B: Oh, really?
• 22:23
  Speaker A: No. But I had to get it in.
• 22:25
  Speaker B: Nice play.
• 22:25
  Speaker A: I didn't know I had to.
• 22:28
  Speaker B: That one coming.
• 22:29
  Speaker A: That was a stretch. But I had to get it in there, right? No, she wasn't whifty at all. She was opposite of wifty because she spent 10 years manipulating 100 guys. So either the 108 guys that were after her. Don't ask me what the 108 stand for, but that's. How many suitors were after her in this book the whole time? Either they were so stupid, which absolutely. Yeah, like, that's not that hard. Or she was a fucking genius. Right? One. One of the two. What are you going to do? So here we are, 2,700 years later.
• 22:54
  Speaker B: So then how close is the movie with the.
• 22:56
  Speaker A: What the fuck do you want me to say? I have no idea. I haven't seen the movie. It hasn't come out yet.
• 22:59
  Speaker B: Trailers.
• 22:59
  Speaker A: I've seen all the trailers, okay? I've seen all the trailers. And by everything I see, it looks like it's going to be epic. Like, epic. So.
• 23:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean, but if it's the guy who did Oppenheimer, of course
• 23:10
  Speaker A: it's gonna be epic, right? So I forgot Oppenheimer won Best Picture.
• 23:13
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
• 23:13
  Speaker A: I forgot this. Okay, so don't get me wrong, if you Remember Oppenheimer? Really long, three hours and it was like separated by, like building the atomic bomb and the whole thing. And then do you remember it was like the lawsuit about the whole day afterwards. Personally, I didn't love the way it went together, but I remember the first hour and a half. Fucking riveting. Riveting for me. So, like, if he even does a skosh of that, we are so sad.
• 23:31
  Speaker B: Is another three hour movie, huh?
• 23:32
  Speaker A: Well, I have no idea. I don't know. I'm sure it's out.
• 23:34
  Speaker B: I'm sure you can know nothing about the movie.
• 23:36
  Speaker A: No, we know something about, like, listen, we know little bits and pieces, but here's so fun fact. Do you know when he started writing this thing?
• 23:42
  Speaker B: Nope, no clue.
• 23:43
  Speaker A: So when did he win the Oscar? Like, he's Oscar season. January. End of January.
• 23:47
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:47
  Speaker A: Yes. By March of that Same year, in 2024, he was writing the story. Already done, Right.
• 23:51
  Speaker B: All right.
• 23:52
  Speaker A: Done and done. Calls Universal in like five minutes, they write him a check for $250 million and said, we trust you. Go, Done. And here's the cool part. Whole thing, IMAX film technology. I know that sounds like we've done IMAX already. No, no, no. This will be the first ever feature film shot entirely on IMAX film cameras. They're not using other cameras, only imax. It's insane. Locations. Italy, Iceland, Greece, Morocco, Scotland. This is this. Were you a Lord of the Rings fan when Lord of the Rings came out?
• 24:20
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 24:20
  Speaker A: Okay, so when Lord of the Rings came out, it was epic. When it came out, it was a big deal for its time. Back in like 2000.
• 24:25
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 24:25
  Speaker A: Now we're 26 years later or whatever. Right. Like, can you imagine the technology and, like the CGI and everything? It's gonna be insane. Like, this is gonna be nuts. And then, of course, you have the cast, huge cast.
• 24:34
  Speaker B: Right? Matt Damon.
• 24:35
  Speaker A: Matt Damon.
• 24:36
  Speaker B: Anne Hathaway.
• 24:37
  Speaker A: I love Anne Hathaway.
• 24:38
  Speaker B: Zendaya.
• 24:38
  Speaker A: Yes, yes. Zendaya is in it. She plays. I don't know, she's worn. A goddess. Yes, a goddess. She might be Athena. I don't know. Don't. Copia. Yes, she might be Athena. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's kind of a big deal. What's her name? What's her name? Charlize Theron. She's in it, too. She plays one of.
• 24:55
  Speaker B: She has a lot of big names.
• 24:56
  Speaker A: Yes. No, no, that. It's a little bonkers. So I just think he's the right director. He's got enough money and he's got, in my opinion, a lot of the right actors sitting in the right spot. So the only thing if I'm worried about anything about, first of all, I think it's gonna be amazing. I'm gonna see it. Like, of course I'm gonna be the first person to go. Like, I'm afraid what Hollywood does a little bit, they wanna make it so action packed. Right. They wanna go over the top with all the cgi, with all the blood and guts, with all the battle scenes. And we did Chief of War, Apple, Chief of. And I liked it. I liked it. Don't get me wrong. I think Jason Momoa did a good job, but there was so much battle. And I. From when I remember learning about him, that wasn't really the case. Same thing here. Odysseus is not about battling. Odysseus is about thoughtfulness. It's a chess match. And so if he doesn't.
• 25:46
  Speaker B: But I feel like Matt Damon could be like a good.
• 25:48
  Speaker A: That's my point. So I love Matt Damon for it. But, like, I want to make sure it's chess matchy because that for someone like me, I will be more interested in the chess match than I would the battle sequences. So I. I get that they have to have some of that. So I. I am a little nervous that it's going to be Hollywood.
• 26:02
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 26:03
  Speaker A: So that's my only sort of watch out. But otherwise, I'm excited.
• 26:06
  Speaker B: We got to wait.
• 26:07
  Speaker A: We go.
• 26:08
  Speaker B: Do we know when does it come out now?
• 26:10
  Speaker A: Like, right around the corner. I think in like, a few days.
• 26:12
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 26:12
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 26:12
  Speaker B: Well, then here we go.
• 26:13
  Speaker A: What's happening? Here's my problem. Like, I can't believe we just did this whole episode on the Odyssey when the frigging World cup final is, like, right around the corner. What are we doing?
• 26:22
  Speaker B: Why, like, oh, my gosh, how do I pick between the two?
• 26:27
  Speaker A: Well, we'll just go on a different day. It doesn't matter.
• 26:29
  Speaker B: Okay, okay.
• 26:29
  Speaker A: Whatever we'll do, we'll wait until the World cup is over completely.
• 26:32
  Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like the Odyssey, we can just like, we'll just watch one over.
• 26:34
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's what we're gonna do.
• 26:35
  Speaker B: Okay, so what are the fun facts you got for me? Cause that first one about Homer not
• 26:38
  Speaker A: being, like, I just heard you say fun facts. I don't know if that was a Freudian slip or not. Is it fun facts or fun facts?
• 26:43
  Speaker B: Fun facts.
• 26:43
  Speaker A: Fun facts. I must be. I'm being wifty today. Okay. I'm always whifty. Okay, here we Go. You ready?
• 26:49
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 26:49
  Speaker A: Number one, the word Odyssey is actually in the dictionary today because of this book, but is. It didn't exist.
• 26:57
  Speaker B: Odyssey.
• 26:58
  Speaker A: It wasn't a word.
• 26:58
  Speaker B: The definition book by.
• 27:00
  Speaker A: No, it's journey. A difficult journey.
• 27:03
  Speaker B: Interesting.
• 27:03
  Speaker A: Because of the book. Yes. Right. Yeah. Shakespeare did that. Remember, he came up with a lot of words for our dictionary. So, yeah, anyway, I thought that was a good one. I thought that was a good start. Here we go. Number two, the Odyssey invented the concept of the flashback. Remember when I said there was one about the flashback?
• 27:16
  Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 27:17
  Speaker A: Yes. So because it starts in the middle of the book and then goes backwards, so it starts in the middle of the action and then fills in this backstory through his whole memory that was, quote, unquote, Homer's invention or the poet's invention back in the day. Yeah. Every single book or movie that uses flashback is based on that. Think of, you remember Lost, you remember Manifest, you remember Breaking Bad. They did it all the time. All of those trace all the way back to the beginnings with the Odyssey. Yeah. I think that's kind of cool.
• 27:42
  Speaker B: It's kind of a big deal.
• 27:43
  Speaker A: Kind of a big deal. Totally a big deal. Okay. Number three, the sirens. Sirens. My favorite part of the book. Okay. Of course, basically, Odysseus wants to hear the Sirens sing their songs. Nobody's ever survived it. He doesn't want to die. So he has a crew tie him to the mast of the ship and then plug their own ears with beeswax so they can't hear it. But since he's tied to the ship, he doesn't have beeswax in his ear, so he can hear it. Cause he wants to hear the song, but he doesn't want to be lured to the island. You with me so far? Yes. So anyway, he's the only person that hears the siren song and lives. And that's the whole, like. Remember when I said the whole outsmarting and outwitting problem solving. I want that to be a big part of the film, not some. Oh, let's skip that part because there's not a lot of action there.
• 28:22
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 28:22
  Speaker A: You get what I'm saying? Okay. Number four, did you know the Odyssey has been adapted more times than any other story in all of history?
• 28:28
  Speaker B: I was actually going to ask at the very beginning of this, like, another one.
• 28:31
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 28:32
  Speaker B: Because I feel like it's been. Yeah, but this is done and redone.
• 28:35
  Speaker A: This is $250 million, and then the next one, hopefully in our lifetime, will be a billion dollars.
• 28:39
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 28:39
  Speaker A: Da, da. Da. Right, Okay, I know James Joyce wrote Ulysses as a modern day odyssey set up in a single day in Dublin. The Coen brothers, if you haven't seen oh Brother, where art Thou? Oh my God. Straigh Odyssey. Like totally depression era South. Amazing. Watch it. Cast away Tom Hanks. I get it. Volleyball Island, Wilson, the whole thing. But that's, that's got a lot of Odyssey in there. Star Wars, a lot of Odyssey DNA. Like Luke Skywalker is taken away from his home. Right? Han Solo. Han Solo literally is Odysseus. I mean that's like he's literally journeying through space. So you get the idea. It took over all of western storytelling. And finally, best for last, this one I couldn't believe. In the original Greek there's a moment when Odysseus finally gets home to Ithaca and he's been gone for like, I don't know, whatever, 10 years or something. Whatever he said. And the first living creature to recognize him, you would think would be Penelope. But it's not. It's his old dog, Argus. Yes. Who apparently after all those years, was waiting to see him one last time before he dies. Done so soon as he sees him, he wags his tail one time, falls over dead, croaks. Homer wrote that 2700 years ago and people are still crying about it.
• 29:45
  Speaker B: There's just something about a dog.
• 29:47
  Speaker A: Tell me about it.
• 29:47
  Speaker B: And their master.
• 29:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, his poor old one eyed lice infected dog was probably his tongue sticking out of his mouth. And everybody still cries. That's all I got Fun facts out.
• 29:58
  Speaker B: That was good. That was good. Especially the last one. That was a good one.
• 30:00
  Speaker A: Fun facts.
• 30:01
  Speaker B: Okay, well besides seeing the movie and reading the Odyssey, what else good for you could we do?
• 30:06
  Speaker A: I'd love it.
• 30:08
  Speaker B: Not happening. But if. You know.
• 30:10
  Speaker A: But if. Right. But if you guys want these fun facts, if you want the episode summary sent to your inbox, DM us. I'm not doing anything. I literally stare at my phone and wait for DMs. So somebody please DM me. Amanda's got a life, so she does shit. I don't. I'm like, yeah, you want them here? Send them out. Okay, okay. I mean, I. Good for you. If you're gonna go read the Odyssey. I don't know. I don't know if that's what we're gonna get people. I would say this. Read book nine of the audience. Like if you want to do anything, at least the Cyclops chapter, because that's, that's the most famous, like self contained, where you can just like read it and it's super good and it's thoughtful and he's got it. He masterminds something and there is a little bit of action. So start there and then if you're hooked, keep going. You don't have to read the whole book, but if you really don't want to read anything, I would do. Oh brother, Where Art Thou? With George Clooney? Because that, again, set in the Deep South. I think it's like the 1920s or 1930s. That is number one. It's hilarious, it's brilliant, brilliantly written, but it gives you a total same vibe of the Odyssey and you get to watch it in two hours or less. And it's super fun. So that's all I would do. I don't have anything else.
• 31:10
  Speaker B: All right. And if you just skip to the end of this podcast, just remember these details to seem sort of sophisticated. First, the Odyssey is a 2,700-year-old Greek epic poem attributed to a poet named Homer about a war hero named Odysseus trying to get home after the Trojan War. It takes him 10 years. Gods, monsters, witches, and 108 uninvited house guests are all involved. Second, Homer might have actually been the world's first podcaster performing for live audiences without a script from memory in a tradition of oral storytelling that refined the material over hundreds of years through real audience reactions. The result is arguably the most crowd tested piece of literature in all of history.
• 31:50
  Speaker A: Yep. The story that invented all stories.
• 31:52
  Speaker B: Yep. Third, Homer himself may not have actually existed. My favorite part of this whole podcast. Most scholars believe the poems were composed by many different poets over centuries, and Homer is simply the name the ancient Greeks eventually attached to the tradition. It is quite literally a myth about a myth. That's such a brain fuck. Yeah, that's. Yep. Okay, well then fourth, the Odyssey's influence on Western storytelling is almost impossible to overstate. It invented the flashback, the nonlinear narrative, and the concept of the hero's journey home. James Joyce, the Coen brothers, George Lucas, and Christopher Nolan have all built major works directly on its foundation. And finally, Christopher Nolan's film adaptation opens July 17, 2026. Matt Damon plays Odysseus, and it was shot on entirely new IMAX film technology across five countries with a 250 million dollar budget and one of the greatest ensemble casts assembled in years. If Nolan balances the spectacle with the quiet human story at the center of it, this could be a landmark film. So go see it before it hits all of the award ceremonies.
• 33:01
  Speaker A: This is going to be like, this could be like Avatar or like Titanic.
• 33:04
  Speaker B: Oh, here we go.
• 33:04
  Speaker A: If you guys are right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, there it is. Dear listeners, we started today with Blind Poet standing in front of a crowd 2700 years ago. And now we got a film that's being released on the biggest screens in the world by one of the greatest directors alive with a quarter of a billion dollars behind it. Who are we kidding?
• 33:18
  Speaker B: Well, you say it like that, right?
• 33:19
  Speaker A: Just like that. So here's what I keep coming back to, Amanda, because I always have to come back to something, because that's sort of how my brain works. Odysseus spent 10 years trying to get home. 10 years, long time, gods, shipwrecks. Like, I couldn't spend 10 minutes trying to get home. But, like, he never stopped. He never stopped. He wasn't the strongest dude. He was just human.
• 33:39
  Speaker B: He's gonna get home.
• 33:40
  Speaker A: Knew, right? He just knew what he wanted to get home to. He had his why. He had his why. That's enough. That's what I'm still searching for. My why. If you get anything out of this, figure out your why, people. I think there's something in that. So anyway, if we did our job right today, you're walking out of this episode with a little more than just context and a little more curiosity. And absolutely no excuse not to buy a ticket to go see this movie. As always, if you like what you just heard, hit. Subscribe. Leave us a review. Share it with someone who told you they were an English major, but definitely has never actually read the Odyssey. Liars. Until next time, stay curious, stay moving, and remember, the journey is the whole point. Odysseus just took a while to figure it out.