Latest / The Body Pod / Setting Boundaries Without Guilt: Terri Cole's Guide to People Pleasing, Resentment, and Family Boundaries for Women Over 40

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Setting Boundaries Without Guilt: Terri Cole's Guide to People Pleasing, Resentment, and Family Boundaries for Women Over 40 · The Body Pod

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Think about what is high-functioning codependency, so much of it.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's just a life built on self-abandonment because every kind
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: of codependency, high-functioning garden variety, doesn't matter, is an overt
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: or a covert bid or attempt to control other people's
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: feelings and outcomes. Hi, everyone.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: My name is Haley.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: And this is Laura.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: And welcome to The Body Pod. Our guest today has
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: spent more than two decades helping women from stay-at-home moms
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: to Fortune 500 CEOs break free from the patterns that
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: quietly run their relationships. People-pleasing, over-giving, and the inability to
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: say no without guilt. She's a licensed psychotherapist, the host
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: of the wildly popular Terry Cole Show, and the best-selling
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: author of Boundary Boss and Too Much. Her brand new book,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: The Father Wound, is the first of its kind to
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: explore how absent, inconsistent, or emotionally unavailable fathers shape the
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: way women see their own worth and how that shows
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: up decades later in our marriages, our friendships, and the
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: way we mother our own kids. If you've ever wondered
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: why you keep over-functioning, over-explaining, over-explaining, or abandoning your own
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: needs to keep everyone else comfortable, today's conversation will be insightful.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Please welcome Terri Cole. Welcome Terri Cole to The Body Pod.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: We are thrilled for this conversation. As I just mentioned offline,
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  Speaker 2: I have gone on a rabbit hole of all of
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: your books and your father wound book that has not
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: been released yet that I'm probably the most excited about.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: But welcome. We're going to dive into a lot of
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: topics today.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Love it. Thank you so much for having me. I'm
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: so excited to be here.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: So let's start with, as you know, every listener is
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: a midlife female. And at this time in life, there's
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff happening. We all know that. We
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: have these fluctuating hormones. We're in the sandwich generation with
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: parents and teens and all of that. Most of us,
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: or a lot of us, I would say, myself included,
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  Speaker 2: do not have didn't grow up with great boundaries and
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: it's probably, um, there's a lot of people pleasing 10 tendencies.
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  Speaker 2: And for me, I know it's what I get asked
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of is how do you set good boundaries?
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  Speaker 2: If you haven't grown up with them, which most of
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  Speaker 2: us didn't, or I'm curious what you would say, do
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  Speaker 2: most people grow up with good boundaries or more people
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  Speaker 2: do not?
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  Speaker 3: Uh, no.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: None of us knew what we were doing.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: None of us did. Here's the thing. I wrote, there's
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: so many good reasons why we don't know how to
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: do this. So let's start with, and it was so
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: pervasive in my therapy practice that I wrote an entire
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: book on it, created an entire course around it because
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: nobody knew. And I have a very high functioning female clientele.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: So these are the masters of the universe, right? Building
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: their empires, doing their things, CFOs, pop stars, all the people.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: They didn't know how to do it either. So it
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: has nothing to do with brains, right? It's not about intelligence.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: It's about training. So let's start with my definition of boundaries,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: I think will be easy. And then we'll all be
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: on the same page of what we're talking about. So
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  Speaker 1: I want you to think about your boundaries as your
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  Speaker 1: own personal rules of engagement that let other people know
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  Speaker 1: what's okay with you and what is not okay.
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  Speaker 4: Right?
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  Speaker 1: That's it. Your boundaries are made up of your preferences,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: your limits, and your deal breakers, right? So not all
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: boundaries are created equal. Obviously, a deal breaker is more
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: important than a preference, but they all matter. And it's
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: not enough to know your preferences, your limits, and your
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: deal breakers. You need to know them and have the
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: ability to communicate them when you so choose. So even
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  Speaker 1: the women who do know them are not fluent, in
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  Speaker 1: the language of boundaries. So the question people ask me
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: is either why is it so hard or why don't
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  Speaker 1: I know? So let's just all be on the same
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  Speaker 1: page that we were raised and praised to be self-abandoned
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  Speaker 1: and codependent. Most of us, it was socially sanctioned that
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: the more self-sacrificing, the more compliant, who heard, be a
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: good girl, turn that frown around, where's my happy girl?
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  Speaker 2: Everybody.
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  Speaker 1: Everybody. that in our age, between 40 and 70, heard that,
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  Speaker 1: I'm sure modern parenting is changing. I hope it is.
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  Speaker 1: But so much of my work is for your audience, right?
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  Speaker 1: Because we've already not learned the boundaries, right? We're going
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: back in time and need to learn them. So there's
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  Speaker 1: nothing wrong with you if you're listening to this and
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: you feel like you're a boundary disaster. You wouldn't feel
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: bad if you wanted to be fluent in Russian. You
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  Speaker 1: wouldn't be like, oh, if I just cross my fingers,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: maybe I'll wake up fluent. You'd be like, I need
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  Speaker 1: to learn. I need a teacher. I need a book.
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  Speaker 1: This is really the same thing. So that answers the
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: first sort of two questions. What are boundaries? Why don't
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: we know what they are? And why is it so hard?
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  Speaker 1: The idea of asserting a boundary, why is that so hard?
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  Speaker 1: And I think that there's a lot of fear. We
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  Speaker 1: have all of this fear. We don't want to have conflict.
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  Speaker 1: We don't want to be rejected. We don't want to
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  Speaker 1: be judged. We don't want to be abandoned. So many
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: people say, I'm afraid if I start drawing boundaries, I'll
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  Speaker 1: lose my relationships, you know?
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  Speaker 3: Or disappoint people.
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  Speaker 1: Major or major is not wanting to disappoint. But what
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  Speaker 1: ends up happening is that if we live a life,
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  Speaker 1: decades and decades of self-abandoning, because this is what we're doing,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: you can't do what's Other people want you to do
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: and what's best for you simultaneously. Sometimes those things align,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: but most of the time they're different. And so what
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  Speaker 1: ends up happening is every time you say yes, when
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: you want to say no, every time you do something
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: that you don't want to do, right? You are giving
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: corrupted information to the people in your life. They don't understand.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: They believe you, right? When you say yes, but you
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: want to say no, they don't get that you're copping resentment,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: that you have a file cabinet. of all the resentment
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: that you have filed away for all the crap they've
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: asked you to do. And it's interesting because the perspective,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I was with a friend of mine, Kate Northrup, many,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: many years ago, and we were walking in New York
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: City and she was complaining about this person asking her
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  Speaker 1: to do all this. She's like, she's so entitled. I've
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  Speaker 1: done so much for her. How could she possibly be
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: asking me to do more? Blah, blah, blah. So by
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  Speaker 1: the time we got to where we were going, I
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: just turned to her and I said, Kate, you're right.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: She has some nerve putting you in the position to
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  Speaker 1: have to say no. She was like, oh my God, Terry,
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  Speaker 1: I hate you. But yes, why am I so mad?
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Rather than just being able to say, hey, it doesn't
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: work for me this time. Why is that so hard?
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  Speaker 1: Instead of us looking and going, wow, this is a
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  Speaker 1: boundary muscle I need to flex. We look at them
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  Speaker 1: and go, who raised them? Why are they so entitled?
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: They've got some nerve asking me to do this stuff.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: But what we have to understand in this boundary conversation
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  Speaker 1: is that people can and will ask us to do
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  Speaker 1: the most ridiculous shit, the most off the hook, out
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  Speaker 1: of control. How could you possibly think that this is appropriate?
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  Speaker 1: But instead of getting mad or judging, what happens is
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: when you become more fluent in the language of boundaries,
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  Speaker 1: you don't even care because you're not a victim to
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: them anymore. They say, can you help me move for
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: 12 hours on Saturday? And you go, actually, I'm available
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  Speaker 1: from 10 until 12. So I have two hours. That
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  Speaker 1: works for you. I would love to come and help
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  Speaker 1: you from 10 until 12. Instead of us being like,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: but they wanted it all day. Too bad. That doesn't
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  Speaker 1: mean you have to do that, you know?
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  Speaker 2: Is there a difference between boundaries? Because, of course, anytime
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: we bring up these subjects, you start to go to
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  Speaker 2: your own situations. And the boundaries... I guess what I'm
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: frustrated with is I get, and I know why the
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  Speaker 2: people that you truly love, sometimes it's hard to set boundaries,
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  Speaker 2: especially in a home where maybe there weren't any. However,
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  Speaker 2: the ones that make me really irate are the ones
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  Speaker 2: that I have, I guess, kind of gotten myself in
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  Speaker 2: sticky situations. And it's with people I don't care about
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  Speaker 2: at all. And it almost is like, there's like the
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  Speaker 2: people pleasing and then there's a freeze, I would call
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  Speaker 2: it where something's happening and you don't want the, like there's,
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  Speaker 2: there's different, it's different for me. I can separate those.
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  Speaker 2: Is there a difference? I guess in my head, I'm
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  Speaker 2: asking you from people that you truly love and you
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  Speaker 2: want to keep this relationship versus maybe even like a
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  Speaker 2: stranger that has caused a boundary in issue, but you
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  Speaker 2: don't necessarily stand up and say anything because you don't
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  Speaker 2: know how.
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  Speaker 1: All right. So there's a bunch of questions in that
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  Speaker 1: one question. So let's start with the people pleasing aspect
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  Speaker 1: of what you said, right? That, which is so, this
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  Speaker 1: is not at all uncommon. What you're describing, right? We
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: could be, I was such a people pleaser and I
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: needed to be liked so much that even people I
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: didn't like, if I found out they didn't like me,
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  Speaker 1: I'd be like, why not? What do you mean? What's
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: not to like? I never did anything to hurt. Like,
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  Speaker 1: I don't even care if I don't like you. I
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: still want you to like me. That makes no sense.
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  Speaker 1: That is people pleasing to the extreme. But with what
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  Speaker 1: you're saying, there's two things going on. It can be
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: With the VIPs in your life, it can be more
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: threatening to establish boundaries if you haven't because there's a
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: real fear of loss. And if these are core important relationships,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: we get that, which is why you have to talk
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: about it and you have to expect that there's going
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: to be pushback. If you are establishing boundaries in a
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: relationship where you have not done it before, the other
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: person is going to notice. Look at your relationships like
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: a dance. These are people, some people, especially your family
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  Speaker 1: of origin, they really don't like boundaries because think of
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: them as the original dance troupe. We've been dancing with
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  Speaker 1: those people the longest. So a lot of times they
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: just want you to stay in the image they had
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: of you, the way you used to be. I don't
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: even know who you are anymore. You're changing. So when
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: people say to me, if they say, I don't even
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: know who you are, you know, you're changing. I always say,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: thank you. I've been paying a lot of money in
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: therapy to change. So that has been my goal. So
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: I thank you for noticing, of course, that's a little
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: bit sarcastic. But I want to make a distinction with
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: what you said about if someone who's not important to
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  Speaker 1: you or someone on the street crosses a boundary, does something,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: says something, puts their hand on your arm, whatever, and
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: you freeze. This is a fight, flight, freeze fawn, right?
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  Speaker 1: This is a very biological reaction. And so... For many people,
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  Speaker 1: if freeze is your natural response when you feel threatened,
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  Speaker 1: it makes sense that it would be hard to say something.
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  Speaker 1: But I promise you, the better you get in the
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: rest of your life with asserting your boundaries, when you
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: start learning how to say, I'd like to make a
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: simple request that if you're going to be 10 minutes late,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: you'll let me know, right? Like that's a boundary. That
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: is a boundary request. And it really can be simple
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: and easy in Boundary Boss, that book. I have a
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: million scripts and sentence starters because I feel like so
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: much of the time people are like, I was right there.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: I was in front of my boss's desk. I was
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: going to say it. And then I just couldn't find
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: the words and I left. So I always want to
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: provide the words, but the words without understanding why it's
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: hard will not be helpful. I could give you, if
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: the words would work, without understanding the internal experience, I
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: would just put out books with scripts in them, right?
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Because I wouldn't need to help you identify internally in
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: the basement of your mind, your unconscious mind, what happened?
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Why is it hard? So one thing I walk people
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: through is their downloaded boundary blueprint, which is basically, you know,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: we go back to the scene of the crime. What
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: did you learn from your family of origin? What was
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: your role in the family system? There's all of these
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: things that come together that create your unique blueprint, meaning
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: the way that you personally relate to boundaries, how close
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: or how far you keep people from you, because that's
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: kind of what boundaries are. So you walk through that.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: But if people right now watching, listening, wanted to do
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: something quick, about their own boundaries, trying to figure out
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: where they need boundaries, because this is a question I
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: get all the time. They're like, it's so overwhelming. I
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: don't even know where I need boundaries. We could do
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: a quick resentment inventory. And I bet both of you
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: could think about, yeah, I was just going to say
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: right now, people, both of you can think of who
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: is causing you Resentment, where do you feel like you're
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: holding on to a little bit of bitterness? It could
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: be old situations and it could be a lot of
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: times it's current situations where we're not saying anything, but
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: every time this person does this thing, I gave an
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: example in the book of when my sister and I
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: were both living in the city, we both had our
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: own apartments. She had keys, I had keys, so we
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: would have double the closets because we're the same size.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: And she would come to my house, take stuff from
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: my closet, but not tell me. So then I'd be
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: looking for something for like days. And I would be like, dude,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: if you're taking something, you got to tell me. Just
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: tell me. That's it. I don't even care if you
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: borrow it, but I want to know. Anyway, it got
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: to the point where I had to draw the boundary
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: and say, hey, before I got into saying the boundary,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: I did a resentment inventory. And I was like, what
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: am I really resentful about? Well, I'm resentful that she doesn't,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: I'm not asking for much. Just tell me you're taking
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: my stuff. But then part of the resentment inventory we do,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: what is my 50% of this interaction? And my 50%
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: is that I'd never had an honest, real heart-to-heart situation
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: of conversation with her about how much it bothered me.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: I would be flippant. I'd be sarcastic. I'd make a
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: snide remark. But I never just said, hey, if you
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: don't stop doing it this way, I'm going to take
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: back my key because that's what it got to for me.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: And that's a bummer because that means now both of
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: us have half the closet. we had before when we
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: could share clothes. So, so each one of you, if
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: you think about who do you feel the resentment for,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: you can, then you write the situation, you guys who
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: are listening or watching, and then you're going to look
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: at what is your 50%, right? And even if someone
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: is acting horribly, your 50% could simply be staying in
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: that situation. And then the last column that we fill
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: in is what is the next right action? So maybe
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: it is to have a heart-to-heart, an honest boundary conversation
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: with that person. Maybe it is going back and saying,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: you know, I was resentful about this that happened or
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I'm really been holding onto this and I want to
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: clear the air. And another thing that people have these
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: myths around boundaries where they feel like if you don't
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: say it at the time that like you missed your
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: opportunities time. And I just want to say there is
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: literally no statute of limitations. I will go back to 1978.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I don't care. And you can too, if you guys
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: are too young to go back to 1978. But you
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: get what I'm saying is that you can say, oh, hey, Bob,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I wanted to say something about that meeting that we
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: did in April where you were on your phone while
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: I was doing my presentation. Honestly, I found it really distracting.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: So I'd just like to make a simple request that
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: you not do that since we have a no phone
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: policy in the meetings anyway.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting because the people that have been
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: maybe taking advantage. Cause I, I have learned, well, all
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: of us have learned a lot of really hard lessons
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: when we, if we didn't know how to set boundaries
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: until you see it and you, you like assert one.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: And then if somebody gets super pissy and can't handle it,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: they're the ones that's usually the one that's been taking
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: advantage and they don't want the boundary. Cause I've had
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: conversations go both ways. when I've tried to assert a
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: boundary where someone is like, okay, yeah, I understand that.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: They own up to their part. I own up to mine, whatever.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: But then the people that are just like, how dare
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: you set a boundary with me?
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, but here's the thing. Yes, I think that there
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: is something to that theory that a lot of times
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: the people who get the most mad are the people
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: who had the most, they have the most to lose
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: with you becoming more of a boundary boss. But I
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: also have to say there is something very real human
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: nature-wise that when we change, when we're in long-term relationships,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: if we do different things, it will feel threatening because
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: the people in our life who love us are afraid
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: that we're going to change so much we're no longer
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: going to love them unconsciously, right? So what I say
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: with everyone who takes courses with me on this and
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: what we talk about is expect some pushback.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: And you know the relationships in your life, right? You
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: know the people. If you have deep love for a sister,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: a cousin, a friend, and you set a boundary and
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: they get all irate and pissy about it, you can say,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: if you have prepared yourself, and if you read my
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: book or take any courses with me, you will be
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: prepared for someone to get mad. It's okay for you
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: to say, listen, I see that you're upset. I still
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: can't come on Saturday because of my commitment on Sunday.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: but I'm sorry that you're upset. I love you. I
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: know it's important to you and I know you're disappointed, right? Like,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? We can absorb some
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: of that and still hold the boundary.
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: How do you deal with a situation when you put
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: up a boundary and you draw the line in the
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: sand and then it keeps happening?
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: How do you then deal.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: With that? Well, I make the distinction in the book
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: about we have boundary first timers, we have repeat offenders,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: and then we have boundary bullies or boundary destroyers, which
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: are like, over here, this is the really bad ones,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: which are more people who may have mental health struggles
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: um that are being untreated it could be narcissism it
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: could be cluster b personality disorders right people who are
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: more like psychopathic to a degree those are the boundary
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: destroyers where none of what i teach works with someone
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: if their goal in life is to dominate you is
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: to win is to control you, right? They're not someone
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: who wants to have a mutual relationship. So in the book,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: I tell you three different ways of dealing. For boundary
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: first timers, and these are even with people who you
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: feel like they should know better, so to speak, right?
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: We make all of these excuses so we don't have
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: to say the words. So what I teach you is
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: you got to say the word. It's got to be you.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: And a boundary first timer is someone that you have
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: never actually spoken the words out loud. Hey, if you
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: want to borrow my clothes, you need to let me
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: know that you have done that and ask me if
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: I'm going to use it. That's okay. Whatever the thing is.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: If you're going to be late, I can make a
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: simple request that you let me know. So boundary first timers. Now,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: once you have told them that, go back to what
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: you were saying, Laura. If they then, if they agree,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: they go, yes, if I'm going to be more than
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: 10 minutes late, I'll text you. And then a week later,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: they come to dinner that you've made 25 minutes late
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: without texting you. You can reinforce the boundary and say, hey,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: last Tuesday, we had this conversation. You told me that
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: you would let me know you didn't. And it really
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: bums me out. It makes me feel incredibly unimportant when
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: you do that. And it makes me like, I feel
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: like not talking to you now. Now I'm in an
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: aggravated mood. And I really just wanted to have a
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: nice dinner with you. But instead, I'm sitting here feeling
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: all aggravated, you know, or whatever. If that happens again
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: and again, now, then we have to add a consequence.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: So we don't immediately add a consequence to a boundary
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: because sometimes people just go, oh, hey, man, I didn't
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: even know you felt that way. Of course, I'll let
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: you know. I'm sorry. You'd be shocked at how often
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: people go, I literally had no idea you felt that way.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And they will just get it or they'll get it
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: most of the time. And if they slip back, you
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: can say something and they won't be a jerk about it.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: They'll be like, oh, my God, you're totally right. I'm
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: so sorry. My bad.
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: Yep. Right.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: So we underestimate the power of how we feel. what
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: we want and what we think, the importance of that
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: to the people who really love us. We underestimate it
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: if we have these worthiness wounds that we haven't figured
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: out yet. We have to add a consequence. So let's
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: say the dinner example. Let's say it's the third or
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: fourth time. And the person says, listen, this is the
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: fifth time this has happened in two months. I love
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: eating dinner with you, but I'm not making you dinner anymore.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Or if it happens again, I'm eating without you and
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: you can heat up your own dinner, which may sound
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: like oh, that's not a big deal consequence. But actually,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: if you have a ritual that you eat together, it
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: kind of is a big deal, you know? But you
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: have to do something different because what is the most
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: motivating thing for people to change their behavior is a
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: little bit of discomfort. They're not gonna feel good if
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: you eat dinner without them and then they have to
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: heat up their dinner. And you're like, okay, so then
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: you can text me that you're gonna be late. Like
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: you can, it's not that hard. How about now maybe
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: you'll remember to do that Anyway, I think I answered
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: the question, did I?
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: No, that's very helpful, actually.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Should we talk about boundary destroyers, though? How do you
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: feel about talking about the people where it's just impossible?
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, because we all know at least one. I mean, luckily,
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know many, but I can say right to the, like,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: I know exactly who I'm thinking of.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Indeed. And a lot of times we're related to at
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: least one, which makes it even more complicated. Boundary destroyers,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: the best way to protect yourself in a relationship with
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: one is to be really, really up on the most
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: common ways that they manipulate. Nice people. If you're a
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: nice person and you're sort of not naturally super manipulative,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: we do this thing that's called positive projection, where we
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: project our good and decent qualities onto other people. even
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: though they may not possess those good and decent qualities
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: that we have. Just as we think, I would never
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: do that to someone. That doesn't mean other people wouldn't.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: So really looking at the evidence, and in the book
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: I walk you through how to sort of figure out
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: who is a boundary destroyer. It's just the people who
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: are super committed to misunderstanding you. It's the people who
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: want you to do, they want what they want when
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: it comes to you, and they don't really care about
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: what you want. And a lot of these people, if
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: we're talking about narcissistic personality disorder, these are people who
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: do not actually have the capacity for empathy or compassion.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: A lot of them can mimic it kind of good,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: but they don't feel it for you. All they want
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: is what they want. So I think you really have
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: to take stock and do an inventory of who are
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: the people in the VIP section of your life? Who
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: gets the privilege? of being close to your most tender heart.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: It shouldn't just be anybody, right? People, there should be
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: like a lot that people have to show us about
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: their trustworthiness before they get that close to and be
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: in the VIP section. And listen, we can have many,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: many people, you know, but some people should get booted
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: from the VIP section to the mezzanine and some people
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: should get booted out of the venue altogether, right? But
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: when you grow up, As good girls, we don't think
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: that way. Somebody asks us for something or wants something
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: from us, we think, well, I should probably do that
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: or I should at least consider doing it. We don't think.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: We think. I want everyone to think I'm good and
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: nice unconsciously, even if it's people I don't like. So anyway,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: you looking at manipulation, have they love-bombed you? Are they
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: gaslighting you, right? Like denying your reality, trying to make
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: you feel like you're losing your mind. No matter what
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: they do wrong to you, obvious things that are wrong,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: do they have this skill where they can flip it
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: and somehow you're apologizing? You're like, how is this 20
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: minutes into this conversation and somehow I'm crying and saying
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry and begging for forgiveness when I had this
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: conversation because you did this horrible, awful thing to me.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: So those are the more extreme things. when we look
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: at boundary destroyers and they're not people that they're not
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: emotionally trustworthy people. And so therefore your boundary has to
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: be big. And usually it's not sharing important shit about
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: your life with them. If they're people, if somebody is
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: going to throw something up in your face ever, they
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: cannot be trusted because that is a very specific thing
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: to do. And Either you would do that thing or
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: you would not do that thing, but it is not
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: cool to do. So anyway, you know those people if
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: they're in your life. My point is, really don't allow
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: yourself to be deeply vulnerable to people like that because
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: they're dangerous people.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: They'll use it against you.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Not cool.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Well, if we move on to high-functioning codependency.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Which is another massive topic and... one that I think
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: we kind of discover or if we're, if we have been,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: we don't necessarily want to keep up with this trend
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: in midlife and midlife women. I didn't, I don't know
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: if I really knew what codependency was outside of when
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: someone's codependent in a romantic relationship. Like, You hear about that,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: but I didn't know there were other versions of codependency
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: until I started learning from you and I saw some
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: signs in myself. So yeah, let's start there. I mean,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming that you have a decent amount of midlife
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: women that are coming to you that are facing this
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: exact issue.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And so much so that I wrote a whole
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: frigging book about that called too much and all about
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: high functioning codependency. So let's talk about codependency. Here's the
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: reason I created a new term is because I have
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: all these incredibly high functioning women in my practice. And
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: if they would come to me with a problem and
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: describe something that was codependent, and I would say that
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: is a codependent pattern, they would immediately be like, uh, no, incorrect.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Offended, so pissed, being like, me, Terry, I make all
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: the money. I make all the moves. I'm not dependent
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: on shit. Everyone is dependent on me, which you know.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, my clients don't know what
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: codependency is. This is what the problem is. That's what
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: they think it means. And that's not what it means.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: So they were being overly influenced by the Melody Beatty,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: God rest her soul, codependent no more version of, I
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: have to be involved with an alcoholic, That's what this
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: is about. It's like the long-suffering wife waiting for the
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: husband to come home and he's drinking away his paycheck.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Think about this old, when you think of codependent, there's
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: this weakness to it. So you can see as a
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: therapist and as a teacher and a coach, this is
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: a problem if the people who you're trying to help
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: with the problem don't see themselves in the problem where
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: I'm like, no, trust me. So anyway, I did a
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: whole bunch of research and I've been doing, I've been
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: a therapist for almost 30 years and I would see
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: the same thing over and over again. And why was
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: it familiar to me? Oh, why? Why do you think?
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: because it's the same exact kind of codependency I myself
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: suffer from, high functioning codependency. So let's just say what
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: the definition is. When you are overly invested in the
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: feeling states, the outcomes, the relationships, the financial situations, the
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: careers of the people in your life, to the detriment
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: of your own internal peace. How this is different is
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: that first of all, all of the intervening that you do.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: If you're an HFC, high-functioning codependent, it's not that we
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: just love the people in our lives. Of course we do.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: But we take it one step further where we feel
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: responsible for the happiness, the success. We feel responsible for
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: the people in our lives. And that is not the
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: same as loving them. So that is what high-functioning codependency is.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: And the problem is, the more capable you are, The
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: less codependency looks like codependency, but it's still codependency. So
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: we're still suffering and we're still burnt out and we're
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: still exhausted and we're still over giving and we're still mad.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: But we're also running companies and raising children and taking
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: care of aging parents and doing it all while we're
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: figuring out how to still go to SoulCycle and drink
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: grain juice or whatever. You know what I mean? Like
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: all the things.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Doing it and doing it well.
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: But damn, there is a cost for doing all of that.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So where do we start? If this resonates with
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: anyone listening, what's the first step? How do we break that?
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: So you're going to do an entire list. The first
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: step is this. You're going to write in your journal,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: what am I tolerating? So we start there. Okay, that's
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: easy enough. There you go, sister. Every area of your life.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: So relationships. Relationships. What am I tolerating? Like what bullshit
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: am I tolerating for myself?
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we're like, I'm going to stop drinking during the
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: week and I'm only going to drink on the weekends
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: or I'm going to start meditating or I'm going to
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: do whatever. That's also tolerating. If you're not doing those things,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: that's also something to tolerate. Financially, where are you over-functioning?
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Where are you doing things for other people that they
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: should be doing for themselves?
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Who are you taking responsibility for where you're not responsible
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: for them? What are the things in your house, in
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: your life, in your office that you're tolerating? A light
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: that you don't like it. It's caustic, but you just
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: never stop to change the bulb. Right. So we're talking
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: about we're going macro and then we're going granular because
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: there's so many things that we're tolerating in life that
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: we could change ourselves easily. Some of them are bigger conversations. Sure.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: But you could change a 125-watt bulb to a 40-watt
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: bulb easily, right? It's about you prioritizing how you feel,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: what you think, and what you want. And that is
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: the beginning. Because when you think about what is high-functioning codependency,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: so much of it, it's just a life built on self-abandonment.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Because every kind of codependency, high-functioning garden variety, doesn't matter,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: is an overt or covert bid or attempt to control
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: other people's feelings and outcomes. That's what we're doing. Your
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: partner comes home in a bad mood. Your good mood
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: goes out the window. And now it's like, oh, can
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: I make you a drink? Or you want to talk
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: about that? Or like dancing as fast as we can
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: to move them from being in a pissy mood to
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: being in a better mood. It's just your partner's mood
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: is not your responsibility. But when you're a high functioning codependent,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Everything feels like your responsibility. So what comes along with
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: high-functioning codependency? Hyper-independence is one of them where we do
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of stuff on our own, where we don't
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: necessarily trust other people because either they're not going to
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: do it or, according to us, they're not going to
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: do it right. So there's that. Then we have the auto-accommodating.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: where even out in the wild, and this was very
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: different what I saw with my therapy clients with myself,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: this was very different than just your garden variety of codependency,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: is that auto-accommodating is we're out in a public situation
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: and we see something that needs to get done. And
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: we're like, I'm doing it, whatever that thing is. And
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: I tell a story in Too Much, the second book,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: that I was at my hair salon, busy hair salon
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: in Manhattan on a Saturday, which I never do because
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: it's insane, but I was, And they were putting a
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: mask on my hair and I'm laying in the sink
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: and I've got this mask on, but now the sink
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: traffic is starting to back up. And I'm just laying
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: there like an idiot, right? I'm not doing anything because
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: it's like a 20 minute mask. You just got to
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: lay there. And my anxiety is starting to get higher.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: And I finally, I just raised my hand and call
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: over the assistant. I'm like, you know, I could, I
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: could sit over there so you could have the sink.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: She was like, yeah, we're good, Tara. Thank you. But
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: we got to come here. And I had this massive epiphany,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: this was probably five years ago, where I was like,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: why am I worried about the sink flow in my salon?
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: I can't even lay here and just enjoy resting. I
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: can't even just listen to a podcast or call my mother.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: This hyper sense of controlling everything so nothing becomes a conflict.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: We see it coming down the pike and we're like,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: oh no, no. I'm going to jump in there before
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: that happens.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: I'll move.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, you want to sit with your family? I move.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: I'll do. It's absolutely exhausting. And some people would say
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: to me and have said to me on the interwebs, well, Terry,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: maybe I'm just nice. I'm like, listen, dude, if you
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: can't not do it, it is a compulsion. That's it.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: If you can't not do it, if you think about
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: it and you go, you know what? I don't mind
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: sitting in the middle. So this little baby gets to
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: be with its mama. That's a choice. I'm not saying
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: we can't make nice and generous choices. Of course we can.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: But when you're an HFC, that's not what we're doing.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: We are being activated by something and we get into,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: I must fix this mode. Same thing the way that
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: we treat the people we love. We are the auto
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: advice givers of life. Can't stop, won't stop telling you
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: what to do.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: Because are we also trying to control it?
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Exactly, Laura.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: And there's symptoms here. Like if you're not sure, there's
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: physical symptoms from holding all of this and trying to
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: control it all or trying to do it all or
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: trying to people please that. I mean, when you talk
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: about burnout, sometimes... it's hard to, you can feel it,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: but it might be hard to recognize because you're like, well,
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: I'm in perimenopause and I just can't sleep that well
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: at night. Maybe I'm working out too hard. I mean,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of things that you could be like, oh, boom, boom, boom.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Here it is. How much of an emotional toll does
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: this take after decades of being in this codependent.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, you get to a point, and I think
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: perimenopause becomes a reckoning, and menopause for sure, where the
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: lack of estrogen, even if you do hormone replacement therapy eventually,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: we hit a wall where we just don't have the
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: bandwidth and we don't have those same nurturing hormones. So
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: there's a part of us that the accumulation of resentment
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: over decades, the chickens are going to come home to roost.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: At some point. And this is why so many women
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: change their lives when they're midlife. They're like, wow, I'm
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: sick of this bullshit. This was a raw deal from
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: the get. And I want a better deal. So either
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: the people in my life are flexible enough to renegotiate
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: the terms. Maybe they're not. And maybe this is the
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: end of the road for us. But there's a reality
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: that we start, first of all, grasping. that we have
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: a finite amount of time on this planet. This shit
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: is not forever. And I think that a lot of
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: the physical stuff that you're talking about, the physical symptoms,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: this is, I mean, I was diagnosed in my early
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: thirties with cancer and I'm perfectly healthy now, but the
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: reality is the amount of self abandonment that my life
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: was built on, it was unsustainable. So many people, so
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: much obligation, so much working, so much over-functioning, so much exhaustion,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: huge career as a talent agent, just so much international travel.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: It was just too much. And I wouldn't listen. My
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: gut was like, wow, I don't think you can do
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: this forever. Universe is whispering, tapping. Hey man, hey man,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: slow down, do something. You need to change something. And
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: then I didn't listen. So then it threw me down
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: a flight of cancer stairs, as I like to say.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: And that wakes you up. She'd be like, oh, hey,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: if something, we're going to cut short this experience. Am
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: I living my best life by saying yes when I
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: want to say no and people pleasing my way into
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: the night? I'm not. Because what? we lose, the most
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: tragic part is that what we lose is when you
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: say yes when you want to say no, when you
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: do a bunch of crap you don't want to do,
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: you are unknown. The people closest to you literally do
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: not know who you are. Because you are not telling
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: them the truth. You're giving them corrupted data. And so
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, how can anyone authentically
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: love you if you never let them authentically know you?
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: It is so isolating. So many women coming to me
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: in their seventh or eighth decade of life being like,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: I did all the things. All the kids went to
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Ivy League schools. I'm on the board. I do this.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: I do charities. I'm still in good shape. I still
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: like my partner. We still travel. dude, is this all
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: there is? Why do I feel so empty? I'm like,
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: because you built a life checking boxes that someone else
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: constructed and you never let people know who you really were.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: And it's unsatisfying.
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: Ouch.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: That hits home.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: I never heard it said so eloquently.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Well, if we move on, because I know I definitely
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: want to touch on your new book, Father Wound. What
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: made you decide to write it? This is your third book.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I also have a workbook that goes along with
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: The Boundary Boss. So it's really officially my fourth book.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: But yes, I'd say Hardback is my third.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: And....
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: What made you want to write this book? And what
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: are we going to learn in there?
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, dude, it's probably the most important work of my life.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Everything else that I've written has led to this. So
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: it incorporates all of the disordered boundaries and codependency and
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: all of that. I mean, just like every other book
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I wrote, why would I write this one? Because I
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: have a massive father wound that negatively impacted my life.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: and my sense of self and my self-esteem for years.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: And what I saw in my therapy practice was women
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: like me, right? Masters of the universe, building empires, doing
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: their thing, but down deep, still this worthiness wound. It's
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: a very invisible wound, but how it was really still
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: negatively impacting how they were experiencing all this great stuff
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: that they were doing. You can't really enjoy it. There's
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: always this fear of something. So I thought it can't
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: just be me. And then I saw so many therapy clients.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: I knew that there's no book out here that is
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: helping us when we have father wounds. So what is
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: a father wound? This is what happens to a daughter
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: when you have a father who is a psychological and
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: emotional wound. If you were not protected, if you had
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: a father who abandoned you, if you have a father
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: who wasn't attuned, to you. And many of us in
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: the age group that you guys are talking about had
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: that because it was very, you know, fathers were looked
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: at as like the provider, the only provider, right? They
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: were the protectors. So what happens when you don't get that?
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Partly for many women, you don't think you're worth protecting
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: and you certainly don't know how to really protect yourself.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: This is how we become such people pleasers. and why
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: we acquiesce to what other people want often or whatever.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Everyone's symptoms are going to be different. But I also
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: want you to look at it from the point of
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: view that even if you had a decent father, let's say,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: you were still raised in a patriarchal culture. And all
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: of those messages about women, about our worth, being what
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: we look like, how we should never age, how men
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: become debonair and women become old hags. Like you feel like,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: you know, some of the younger generations like, but is
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: it really still like that? I'm like, hello, look at
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: the beauty. Look at how they're selling youths and how
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: anybody aging naturally, they're like, what the hell is wrong
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: with her? Like, so anyway, there's so much in this
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: book where I'm not just looking at it. Yes, it's
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: from the point of view of your own father experience.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: So you also have a downloaded father wound blueprint because again,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: this is a unique wound to you. It's different than
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: what anyone else would experience, right? Because it's all about
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: your life. But the societal thing is something too. And
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: on the other side of getting through this father wound,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: processing what we experienced in our lives in a real
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: and honest way is actual freedom. Like never walking on eggshells, Again,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: with anyone. Not taking the temperature of every room that
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: you walk into. Not looking at micro expressions of people
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: where they're changing. Maybe they don't like what you're saying
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: and you could easily just morph yourself into something that
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: would be more palatable. Imagine never feeling like you needed
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: to do that again.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember the first time that I asserted a
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: boundary with my own father and the response was, I
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: can't believe of all the children that you would turn
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: your back on me, that you would. And I was like, oh,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: I'm like the problem now. This is, I mean, it
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: was eyeopening, but I knew enough as an adult to
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: know what the situation was, but it's yeah, it's, it's
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: very telling when somebody has a response that you're not prepared.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: For what they're saying though right what he's saying is
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: you're scaring me like i don't know how to be
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: in that relationship i don't know how to relate to
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: you if i'm not the dominant one kind of you
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: know what i mean oh yeah and you know he
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: he can get used to the new you though i
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: imagine that he has.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah It's so how do we like, there's a sense
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: of grief that can happen with these relationships when you
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: start to see them a little bit different and probably
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: for the person too, that you have asserted when there's
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: a change, is there always a little bit of grief
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: with a change in a relationship? Cause we like, we
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: like to be status quo, just everything has harmony and
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: we're all vibing and we know that life doesn't work
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: that way. But when there's a change there, I have
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: felt a real loss for even if it's what I want.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: I felt a real loss for what it was, even
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: if it wasn't serving me.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole notion that we really need to mourn.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: So we mourn the dream. And I have an exercise
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: in the book that we do. So you mourn the
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: dream of the father that you wanted. But didn't have.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: And then. As you transform that relationship, you mourn that,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: the relationship that you are changing. Make sense?
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: So you know how they say that men marry their mom?
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: Is there an aspect of how we show up in
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: picking a spouse or people that we date?
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: Yep. There is. I call it repeating relationship realities where...
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: This person, before there's any real deep psychological intervention, what
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: happens is we get imprinted with the father that we had.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Whatever that masculine representative was, because it could have been
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: a grandfather, it could have been an uncle, right? Not
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: everyone grew up with their biological fathers. So what happens
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: is we see someone in the wild and those qualities
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: that we saw in that person Now we're just vibing
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: with them. We're like, I don't know. They just seem
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: so familiar. Like I feel so at home with them, right?
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: Like what do we call chemistry? It's literally recognition. So
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: I look at that person before I fixed all my stuff,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: you know, I would end up, my father was completely unavailable.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Like he was there, but never there. Emotionally, workaholic, you know,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: high functioning, alcoholic, all the things. Should have had a son,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: had four daughters and I was his last chance for
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: a son, right? So I had all of these, chip
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: on my shoulder about who I should have been, blah, blah, blah.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: And so who did I attract? Men who were unavailable
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: in some way, shape or form. And then as I
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: started doing my work and started attracting all these European men,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: because I was doing all this traveling, they were so
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: warm and affectionate. I was like, look, I'm cracking the
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: code on the father wound. My therapist was like, dude,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: they all live on other continents.
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: Hello.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: It's the same thing. She's like, because how does that
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: leave you feeling? And I was like, longing. which is
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: the same way it felt to date a guy in
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: New York City who was emotionally unavailable. So I was like, wow,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: this is really tricky, these repeating relationship realities. But something
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: that anybody listening, if you feel like you're doing this
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: in your life, you see this repetition, you're like, how
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: am I with another unavailable person or whatever it is?
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give you this little thing that you
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: can use. It's called the three questions for clarity. And
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: when you're thinking about anyone, and this can be anyone,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: you guys, you can use this for problematic friendships that
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: you've had in your life, a boss, anybody. The three
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: questions are this. You think about that person in that
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: situation and you say, who do they remind me of?
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Number two, where have I felt like this before? And
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: number three, how is the behavioral dynamic, right? The way
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: with unavailable men, I would be going forward, they would
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: be pulling backwards, right? How is that behavior or that
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: dynamic familiar to you? And you start to come into
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: your mind, the original injury, the thing that it's really about,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: the thing that you, why are you repeating this? I
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: think unconsciously you're looking for a better outcome, right? Why
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: was I attracting unavailable men? Oh, this time, I was
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: going to be smart enough, pretty enough, accomplished enough for
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: them to stay. Without psychological intervention, is that really going
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: to happen? It's not that likely, honestly, which is why
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: we need father wound book and any other kind of
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: book or intervention that's going to help you understand your
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: original injuries, which is what this book is basically about.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: So do you think that, I mean, I know it
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: all comes back to childhood and the issues that we
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: have our first experiences with humans and the world and
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: our family life and all of that. But do you
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: feel like I've noticed in the younger generation that these kids,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: like my daughter in particular, who everything like, oh, we've
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: had trauma. What trauma have you had? You know, like
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: their generation is just like everything because everything's available. We
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: didn't have that option. Our parents didn't have that option.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: So we were all, most of the time, most of
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: us were doing the best that we knew how. And
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: I tell my kids that all the time.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: I am sorry.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: I'll pay for your therapy. Like I did the best
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: that I could with the wounds that I had. And
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: now I feel like there's an abundance of information, but
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: do you think that everyone has some, I mean, I
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: know that we all experienced some form of trauma, but
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: I feel like this younger generation is just like, they don't,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: do they know hard a lot of the times?
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: I think it's different. And I don't, I don't, me personally,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: because I'm a licensed clinician and have been for so long,
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: I don't use the word trauma and triggers the way
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: that everyone on the internet does, because I feel like
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: it is being used incorrectly. Yeah. You could have a
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: painful experience that is not traumatic. Yeah. That's it, right?
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: I can be activated. without being triggered. Being triggered indicates
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: that there was something that was trauma with a capital
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: T where I thought I was going to die. So
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: stop saying triggered because that's not what that means. I
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: always say activated, which means I got hot about something
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: or I had an amplified response to something. That is information.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: For us, we can look and go, huh, why was
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: I so mad when that person cut me off? What
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: does that remind me of? Then you use the three
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: questions for clarity and you go, oh, that reminds me
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: how my sister never listened to me. And it made
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: me feel like I was eight years old again. I
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: get it, I get it. So it wasn't really, that
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: person really didn't do something criminal. Something was happening for me.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: And I think that being responsible for our own psychological wellbeing,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: but we must be responsible, and speaking to what you're
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: talking about, for our own tenderness, our own activation points, right?
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: I will always, because of my father wound, have a
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: tender spot for dads and daughters. If I see something
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: that is sweet, it will always make me cry. I
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: don't think that's a problem. This is just part of
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: how I'm drawn because of my life experience. So not
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: everything needs to be fixed. What I'm doing with Father
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: Wound Book is walking people through the process of deep
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: self-understanding and honoring what we've really experienced in life and
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: moving you through, like, what are the disordered things happening
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: in your life now? What is not working for you?
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: And one by one, we walk through how to change them,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: whether it's feeling unworthy, perfectionism, dysregulated emotion, self-abandonment, disordered boundaries,
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: fear of abandonment, hyper-independence, hyper-vigilance. There's a whole list of
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: things that when you are father wounded, we walk around
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: in this hyper-vigilant state of always like, woof, making sure
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: there's no problems. Is there another shoe that's going to drop?
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: But it's absolutely exhausting to live that way. And it
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: takes up so much of your bandwidth that you need
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: to create your empire, to write your memoir, to do
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: whatever it is you want to do in your life.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: But we can't have all this bandwidth going to other people,
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: thinking about other people, trying to control and manage other people.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: We have to turn this in and give it to ourselves.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: So to kind of wrap things up, because I love
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: that and what I've learned and what I'm taking away
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: from this, multiple things, but I will say it is
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: the recognizing because I think a lot of it, this
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: was the light bulb for me. I don't even know
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: if I thought about, hey, this triggered me.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: What can I learn from it? What do I bring
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: to that? Instead of just thinking, I don't know why
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: I was so annoyed at that. And then just kind of,
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: forgetting it, moving on. And then it happens again. And
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: you're like, I don't know why this keeps annoying me.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Recognizing that and sitting back and saying, okay, what can
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: I learn here instead of just moving along? Sweep it under,
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: move along, continue life.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Well, that's major though, because that, what ends up happening
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: if you do that is that you're raising your awareness.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: And really what our goal is to become radically curious
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: about about ourselves and our responses and reactions instead of
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: so judgmental. Because sometimes you'll say, I wonder why, but
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of times, at least my own internal mean
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: committee would be like, why are you such a freak? Like,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: what's the deal? It wasn't even a big deal, but
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: you got so mad. You know what I mean? We
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: can be so mean to ourselves in a way that
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: we would never be likely to someone else. The last
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: thing I want to say about Father wounds, if anyone
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: is listening and being like, gee, I wonder if I
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: have one. First of all, you don't have to involve
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: your father. They don't even have to be alive for
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: you to heal this wound. So don't worry about that.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: But the symptoms that you may be experiencing, I'm just
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: going to list them quick so that people can feel
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: like they can identify themselves. Difficulty trusting your own judgment
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: is one. Chronic self-doubt, harsh self-criticism, which we're just talking about.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Sort of feeling like you're not enough. You're trying, you're striving,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: but it's like you never really measure up. Needing a
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: lot of external validation. Disconnected from your own needs. Having
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: difficulty saying no, as we talked about before. A profound
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: fear of disappointing other people. Overexplaining your decisions. I feel
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: like you've got to write a dissertation if you're going
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: to say no about something that's just so exhausting. I
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: just want people to know you can just say no.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: Feeling responsible for other people's feelings.
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: And the last, last thing I want to say before
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: anyone agrees to another thing in this lifetime, I want
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: you to ask yourself these two questions. Do I have
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful? And do
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: I even frigging want to do it?
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: All of your questions are mic drops.
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: I mean, I can't, I'm going to definitely be asking myself,
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: what am I tolerating along with all the other ones?
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Great.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: I love your voice too. You're so calming. So I
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: could tell that you're, you're clearly really great at what
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: you do because I want to just sit in, tuck in,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: continue the conversation. So boundary boss too much. And then
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: coming soon, we're all going to be holding our breath
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: for father, father wound, which comes out in October, right?
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: Pre-order happening right now. So feel free. And, You can
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: get a free, I'm doing a half day retreat virtual
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: that comes along with people pre-ordering the book. So if
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: you pre-order, you get a free three and a half
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: hour retreat with me and some guests, and we're going
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: to be walking through the Father Wound Blueprint and all
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: the things. So just go to fatherwoundbook.com.
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: I'm getting on it right now. Thank you so much, Terri,
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: for your time and your expertise and for joining us
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: here on The Body Pod.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for having me. I really
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: enjoyed my time with you.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, everyone.
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: five-star rating and sharing the BodyPod with your friends.