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The Great MAHA Betrayal Continues · Paging America

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the Great Lakes area has like a particularly bad PFAS problem.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine Maha is going to
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: be pissed.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they just decided, hey, we were writing off this coalition.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, for Trump, it might just be like, I'm never going to be on the ballot again.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who the hell cares?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't seem to care about the party in which he is supposedly a member,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know, or their fortunes.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: His actions do not suggest he cares about their fortunes in the midterms.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: All right,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: everybody,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: welcome back to Paging America,
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: where we explore the power, profit,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: and politics shaping American healthcare,
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: and we interview news and viewpoints from people building
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: the universal healthcare movement.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Miles Baker, along with Dr.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Rob Davidson.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Rob, it is smoky out there today.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm across the lake here,
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: and we noticed the first yesterday evening trying to take a later evening dog walk
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: to avoid some of the daily heat, and it was crazy.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Watching that show, Widow's Bay, it was like the fog rolling in for anyone who's watched that.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, just be safe, people.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: You might want to stay indoors today if you've got AC, please.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: How about you?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: You guys have it there in Chicago?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's crazy in Chicago.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't really been paying attention, and I stepped outside to walk to the studio.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: And smoke everywhere.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Just you can't really see that far.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's really something.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a bigger cloud here overshadowing Michigan.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And now I think 34 states total is explosive diarrhea.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully not a cloud of diarrhea.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: But man, this is...
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: You've been seeing this, I'm sure, popping up in your newsfeed, the cyclospora outbreak.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, cyclospora, this parasite that normally is pretty rare, right?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: 60 cases a year, maybe.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's 3,000 cases now in Michigan, they've said something like that.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Is it in places or is it really?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think they said now maybe 34 states, but like Michigan, Ohio were the big ones, Kentucky.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: And like maybe lettuce, Taco Bell lettuce has been implicated perhaps.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know here in Michigan, they're doing a ton here in Michigan, MDHHS.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: They said they're basically working multiple departments over time,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: pulling people off of other projects.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I know we had talked a little bit pre-show, and I'm talking about it later on the show.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is there something that could have been done about this?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we've seen a lot of people talking about the FoodNet program
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: that basically they canceled out the mandatory reporting for all All but salmonella
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: and E. coli that produce shega toxin.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And cyclosporine used to be on it.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And hard to say like how much that directly impacted this.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I tell you what, CDC is way behind.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're reporting like 1,500 cases.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And there might be even like 6,000 across the country now, 3,000 in Michigan.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: So they're just lagging.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're hearing from state agencies and folks inside are is that like
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: The help coming from CDC is pretty minimal.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like they're reporting it up chain because that's the law to report this.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: But like historically,
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: CDC should be like the tip of the spear leading on this and helping
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: to coordinate these state agencies.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And just like Hanta virus, just like Ebola, just like every damn thing, right?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: The CDC,
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: because of RK Jr.,
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: because of the lack of leadership,
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're talking about later across agencies,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: just lacking, just absolutely letting people down.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a problem.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Public health is there in the background, allowing you to eat Taco Bell.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was saying before, I mean,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I had diarrhea from Taco Bell back in high school from eating like,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know, a bunch of hard shell tacos.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it was cyclospora, but like, like it happens behind the scenes.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know about it.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you can just go about your life,
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: eating lettuce, eating salad, doing what you want and you don't get sick.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And when you do, they get on it quickly.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And with the CDC completely absent, it's a lot tougher.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that seems pretty, like a pretty dark, dark act.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like a pretty,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: a big bummer if you're at one of the state agencies
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: and you
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: know you're like sending off your public health report,
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: your explosive diarrhea report to the federal government and it's just disappearing
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: into a void.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: When you send an email and you're like, well, never see that again.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: What a bummer, yeah.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's total abdication of responsibility at the top.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, why don't we get into our agenda?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: We have a great show for you today.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: On the back of the show, we'll be interviewing Andrew Perez from Zateo News.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: We have some very interesting research and public opinion on Medicare for All,
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: pieces that are popular, pieces that may be problematic.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we think it's just a really important discussion for understanding the contours
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: of the Medicare for All debate.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then up front,
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: we have a lot of RFK news,
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: the continuing breakup of Maha and the Trump administration,
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: and the consequences of people stopping taking the vitamin K shots.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So a packed agenda for you today.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the big stories that we've been covering on this show,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: and it has had some developments,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: the rift between Make America Healthy Again And
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: the Trump administration continues to get wider and wider.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So two events that we want to highlight.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: So first,
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Trump's EPA announced that it's moving to roll back emissions rules
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: on heavy duty trucks and buses.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: The agency estimates that changes will save the trucking industry $12 billion,
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: including up to $6,000 per new truck.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Changes go into effect for the 2027 model,
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: and environmental groups question the need for it since
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: the major manufacturers have already built engines that meet the 2027 standards
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: that were already in place.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of a gift for nobody, but it does roll back the emissions rule.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Smokey engines from trucks is not making America healthy, is it, Rob?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: No, just like another case, right?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, promises made, promises broken, right?
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: The Maha movement signed the deal with the devil in MAGA and Trump,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: and now they're figuring out what that means.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: That means that people are only going to listen to your concerns in so much
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: as they find you to be useful to them,
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: and then they're going to do whatever the hell they want.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And reward,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: these industries that are kind of the underpinning of their political movement.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we didn't see a direct,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: there wasn't reporting on a direct donation from the trucking industry.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: But there hasn't been,
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: there hasn't really been an instance where we haven't eventually found money going
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: into one of their The least surprising thing would be that
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: somehow someone
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: in Trump world benefits from this happening, right?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just money.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or just a big F you by Trump to the environment, to climate change.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it seems like part of his waking hours are to just say fuck you to the environment.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it seems like a lot of that.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it might just be like a personal thing.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: The next event that seems like it's opening the chasm between Maha and
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: the Trump administration is the EPA has changed the definition of PFAS.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: The so-called forever chemicals that there's sort of a series
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: of health concerns around PFAS, both among Maha faithful, but also everybody.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to be a health nut to be worried about PFAS.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: You could just be a person who likes water if you don't
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: want PFAS.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: So one toxicologist working with Maha said Lee Zeldin claims he wants
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: to protect people from PFAS,
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: but his actions indicate that he's willing to expose people to more PFAS substances
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: by approving new PFAS pesticides and rescinding drinking water protections for PFAS.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Actions that reflect a disregard for gold standard science and that Americans
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: that have been harmed by PFAS substances.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the Great Lakes area has like a particularly bad PFAS problem.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're in like Michigan or Wisconsin or the Chicago area or Northern Indiana,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: like this should be particularly...
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Should particularly piss you off.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: But really, lots of different places, particularly where you have heavy industry.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's too bad that they're doing this.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: I imagine Maha is going to be pissed.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Chalk up another one.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, who knows?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they've just decided, hey, we're writing off this coalition.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, for Trump, it might just be like, I'm never going to be on the ballot again.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Who the hell cares, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't seem to care about the party in which he is supposedly a member,
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know, or their fortunes.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: His actions do not suggest he cares about their fortunes in the midterms,
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: other than trying to undermine the actual election.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe he's just going to run roughshod over all these policies
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: that supposedly they were going to support to help protect people's health.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Crazy.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: In Kennedy news, Rob,
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: we have,
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: so while Bobby is ignoring the explosive diarrhea outbreak across the United States,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: we've had a number of different developments with Bobby.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to run, I'm going to kind of, there's a lot to cover.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we're going to tick the room kind of quickly today.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: So first,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Stat News reports that RFK Jr.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: plans to create a list of injuries caused by the COVID-19 vaccine.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And this would make it easier for people to claim that they were injured by
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: the vaccine and receive compensation.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly from who is kind of left undefined.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: But this would give people like cause to like, I guess, Sue?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's unclear.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of these pharmaceutical companies have immunity,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: so I'm not exactly sure where they're going to go get compensation from,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: but this is part of him zealously pursuing
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: this idea that vaccines cause injury.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Another one is Scientific American reports that RFK Jr.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: is turning his attention to the U.S. Preventative Services Task Force, the USPSTF.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is an independent group that guides recommendations for preventative services such
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: as cancer screening that helps determine insurance coverage.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: The group has canceled all meetings since March 2025.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Neither Kennedy or HHS has publicly offered an explanation of why they are changing
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: the panel and what they think its role should be,
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: raising concerns of political interference into an independent panel
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: which historically has been apolitical.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Though if this is what it looks like,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: which is a dismantling of an agency that enforces insurance to do the right thing,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: essentially, this would be like the ultimate turning its back on Baja.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is like definitionally making America less healthy.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: the USPSTF,
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that they're an enforcement body,
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: but they make recommendations and built into the ASA says
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: the essential coverage requires that you cover what the USPSTF Not
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: that it enforces it, but it's just standard by which the rules they have to.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever they recommend.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Kennedy previously had said, well, he's not happy about their vaccine recommendations, right?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: But this is the body that was in part responsible
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: for requiring colon cancer screening being lower to age 45 from age 50, right?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Big deal because lots of people are getting colon cancer younger, right?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're the ones who help determine who should be getting mammograms,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: who should be getting all sorts of screenings.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's...
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you read the article, Scientific American, they reached out to the AMA, right?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Purportedly, a large body of doctors looking out for their patients.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And AMA referred to previous statements,
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: one of which said they are deeply concerned about the actions with the USPSTF.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Very concerned.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: I have a number of concern.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So are the queen of concern,
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Susan Collins of Maine,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: the AMA channeling Susan Collins,
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: sort of one of these instances where people express concern and then do nothing
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: about it.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's lame of the AMA.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: The new president isn't there, right?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: We're still dealing with the old AMA?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: The old guard's there, yeah.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: AMA, put your dukes up.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you can't sort of
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: zealously defend preventative medicine...
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the Trump administration is planning to move the Department
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: of Education's special education offices under RFK Jr.'s purview at HHS.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Disability groups are rightfully alarmed and a bipartisan group of U.S.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: senators is working to stop it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: The disability advocacy group,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: the ARC,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: says instead of focusing on classroom access,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: instruction,
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: inclusion,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: services,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And school accountability,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: the move could push decisions toward diagnosis,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: treatment and care management.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, it would turn students into patients in public schools.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now, we want to This is particularly concerning,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: not the least of which because Bobby Kennedy doesn't have a background in education
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: and doesn't really have any purview inside the school system because he's at HHS,
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: not the Department of Education,
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: but also because of his super troubling rhetoric around kids with autism
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: and learning disabilities.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think we want to just remind everyone what Kennedy said earlier in his term
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: about students with autism,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: revealing that he Just really doesn't know what he's talking about.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Let's throw to that clip.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Kids who will never pay taxes.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: They'll never hold a job.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: They'll never play baseball.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: They'll never write a poem.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: They'll never go out on a date.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: God,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when he said that and just the offense that was taken by parents of kids
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: on the autism spectrum, right?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, A, there are some kids with severe autism that, in fact, some of those things may be true.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's called We build a spectrum for a reason, right?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole host and kids in schools need different accommodations based
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: on them individually, right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what teachers and educators know.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: This is what they understand and this is what the Department
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: of Education purportedly should be experts at.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And now to move this to An agency where this is the guy in charge.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that pissed me off about that is
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: the first thing he said was we'll never pay taxes.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: It just reminds me of Dr.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oz like talking about,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: well, the reason we keep people healthy so they can be workers.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: So they can contribute to the productivity.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's like this is how they this is seemingly how they look at people.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't pay taxes, you're not worth anything.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: Is that one of the things you ask in the ER?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: You pay taxes.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: So does that mean Amazon is not worth anything, right?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: They don't pay taxes.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's a bunch of big companies that don't pay taxes.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: So where are they on the list?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Jeez.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so Bobby Kennedy should not be in charge of anything to do with public education.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: He should not be in charge of anything to do with healthcare,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: but that ship has sailed due to the spineless Bill Cassidy,
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: who's apparently finding his spine lately since he's no longer going to be
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: a senator.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: But let's not give him another item in his portfolio about which he knows nothing.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: That would probably be a bad move.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we're against that then.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: We agree.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Against it, yeah.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: We're against it.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, good.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: All right,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: MedPage Today,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: this ties
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: into the epidemic of,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: would it be an epidemic of explosive diarrhea or an outbreak?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Outbreak.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Outbreak of explosive diarrhea.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for teaching the non-doctor.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: All right,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: MedPage Today reports that more than half of
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: the CDC's centers lack permanent leadership.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Of the CDC's 23 centers, institutes, and offices, 11 have acting leadership, and one is vacant.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: The CDC itself does not have a permanent director,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: and so you continue to have What looks like at least partial decapitation
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: of the CDC
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: and during a record, at least in modernity, a record explosive diarrhea outbreak.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't like that.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: We think that's bad, I think.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they should fill those roles.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess I go back and forth on this route because it seems like every part
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: of HHS that Kennedy's focused on He's putting to use in the service
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: of his coalition management or his strange quests,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: his strange like side quests, like proving vaccines are dangerous.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so he's like when he does get his hands on the government and there are all
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: the people in the room that he's like putting that in the service of
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: a strange ideology.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's better that some of these places aren't filled.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Then on the other hand, no,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: there's like an active outbreak around the
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: country right now and it would be better.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: The thing that we should insist on is that the government is working in the service
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: of remedying that.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've seen people say this about Trump.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's better he focuses on ballrooms and reflecting pools.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: He has less time to fuck everything else up.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: they've kind of shown their ability to walk and chew gum at the same time,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know, to fuck things up and to ignore things at the same time.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's a real problem.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, I get the argument.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there is some truth to that.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: maybe having no one there is better than having a complete political hack
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: who is going to break things even further and make it harder to rebuild.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: But man, the vacuum of leadership is being felt for sure throughout the country.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And And again, it's state agencies like MDHHS here in Michigan.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: When something starts in your state, I mean,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: they're the ones who are feeling it when they're sending off those reports
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: to absolutely nobody and having absolutely no coordinated response coming back.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: You're now taking what we've heard,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: we've talked to folks within the CDC,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: their union rep,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: sort of the demoralization,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: talk to people who've left the CDC, Dr. Howard, Dr.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Daskalakis,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: and the demoralization of groups of people who work there but are still trying to do
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: the work.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now we're going to have that filtering down to the state agencies
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: because they're all being overworked, right?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: To try to fill the vacuum.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just the dominoes will keep falling.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And boy,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: until we have change of leadership,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to have to keep this thing together with scotch tape.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I, yeah, it's part of the project, man.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard stuff.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's depressing.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sick of talking about Bobby Kennedy.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have a lot more on the list and I'm just going to skip it.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: We can, we can, we'll, if you come back next week, everybody, we'll talk about Bobby Kennedy.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: More about Bobby Kennedy.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I promise.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but we're going to move on.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, no, the next thing is still RFK.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: We got to cover one more.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Got to cover one more.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Many parents are skipping vitamin K shots for their infants, and the results are pretty tragic.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Rob, before we do this, can you explain what a vitamin K shot is for listeners?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so vitamin K is essential to blood clotting,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: right, to one of the factors to help with your blood clotting system in your body.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Neonates, infants, are notoriously can be You're very low on this, right?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Partly because not much vitamin K crosses the placenta in utero,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: partly because vitamin K processing and it happens within the gut and you're born
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: with a sterile gut.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Breastfeeding has some vitamin K,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: but is just naturally low in Vitamin K.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so the practice has been give a shot of vitamin K at birth
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: and you prevent bad outcomes.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Part of the problem is when now people are kind of expressing concern
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: about any number of things that are recommended by public health,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: vitamin K has been kind of pulled into that, right?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Along with vaccines, along with any number.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: Vitamin K is not a vaccine.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Vitamin K is just a shot of vitamin.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's a shot that was recommended or is recommended by the government.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so the folks who have been telling everyone the government is not on your side
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: when it comes to your health, like that, they're, what's it called?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Unanticipated consequences of this, although one could anticipate it.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the consequences are terrible, right?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: These, particularly the delayed onset between like one month and six months.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: With the vitamin K shot,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: you might see one and a quarter million Without it,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: it's about one in 15,000 to 30,000.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's a massive increase.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's still rare, but one is too many.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you're times 10, the number of the risk,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is reporting from the New York Times.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: A study of electronic medical records found that 5.2% of babies in the U.S.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: went without the shot in 2024, up from 2.9 in 2017.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So just not double, but close.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: The resulting hemorrhages aren't tracked nationally,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: but experts estimate that as many as 1 in 60 untreated infants,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: so 1.7%,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: will suffer a bleed in the first week of life and another fraction of percent
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: within six months.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Several doctors describe vitamin K deficiency bleeding cases as so horrific
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: that they were seared into their minds.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: They treat sick children every day.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like it's pretty terrible.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just, again, completely avoidable, completely preventable.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Just like Hep B, right?
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: They went ahead and said, we're not going to formally recommend this.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: People should just talk to their doctor.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: If we don't have the full force of the agents You're going to have people fall off.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's one-month-olds, two-months-olds who have no say in this.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: They have no ability to make a decision on this.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And they're the ones suffering.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And their families are suffering.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Communities are suffering.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's terrible.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just go to a place of like,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: people are allowed to say sort of anything they want on the internet.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, us, we're allowed to say anything we want on the internet.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, really irresponsible actors going out,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: and then you have Robert Kennedy being at the top of HHS,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: being one of the most irresponsible among them.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: There was something to be said for the democratization of being able
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: to communicate it through mass media,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: but there is a real downside
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: in terms of you have phenomena like this
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: where people stop taking the vitamin K shot,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: and then also that you have the rise of cooks like Robert Kennedy.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to have to figure out
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: how to grapple with it as a
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: society.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, if you thought this year's ACA insurance prices were bad, wait until next year.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the wild one, Rob.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: Via KFF Health News,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: for the second year in a row,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: many ACA insurers are proposing double-digit premium increases driven
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: by rising medical costs as well as policy changes by Congress and
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: the Trump administration.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: In a preliminary finding from state regulars,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: insurers are seeking a median rate increase of 14%.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And according to analysis of fines in 16 states,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: if those rates are ultimately approved,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: it would be the second highest rate increase since 2018.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Very quickly, ACA premiums are going to not be affordable.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a stake in the heart of Obamacare.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's been little cuts, big cuts, medium-sized cuts.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: But with the shaking and the wobbling of the state and federal marketplace,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: that's a big step back from universal health care.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I talked about it with Wendell Potter, I think a few weeks ago.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Part of it,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: a big part of it is these ACA subsidies expiring
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: and people just falling off insurance.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the people who decide not to get insurance are mostly younger people,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: mostly healthier people, mostly people who don't cost as much.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: So now your pool of people that have to be insured Cost more, right?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Per individual.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, Cigna announced they're pulling out of certain ACA markets.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: So they're just saying, yeah, fuck it.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: We're not doing it.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: It costs too much.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And others,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: including Cigna and other insurances are just saying,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: well, we're just going to jack up the prices even more.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Part of the death spiral.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're just going to do it administratively.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's unfortunately working.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a real crime.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Rob, we got a great interview.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said at the top, Andrew Perez from Zateo News is on.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to dive into some recent polling around Medicare for All.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm going to throw to that now.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Today, we have a very special guest.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: It is Andrew Perez.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: He is a senior politics editor at Zeteo, and he was previously an editor at Rolling Stone.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: He is a longtime friend of the universal healthcare movement,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: and we are very pleased to have him on the pod.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Andrew Perez, welcome to Paging America.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Where do we find you today?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: I am at my apartment in Maine.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Andrew, there was a small kerfuffle on the Twitter machine in light of this poll
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: that was commissioned by Searchlight Institute and written in partnership
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: with you guys over at Zeteo,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: fielded by Tavern Research, a pollster that we've had on the pod in the past.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we thought the outcome was really interesting and sort of novel in the depth in
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: which it explored questions around the viability and popularity of Medicare for All.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we were excited to have you on to talk a little bit about it.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: For anyone who wants to be a real sicko about public opinion data,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: you could pause and go read the poll itself, which will be linked in the show notes.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we're not going to get into
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: all the questions that were asked,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: but we do want to talk about how this came about.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: For our listeners,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: maybe you could tell us how did we end up having this poll out in
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: the world around Medicare for All, and what did you think you learned from
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: it?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: So this poll came about in part because I was reading a sort of additional
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: or previous polling by the Searchlight Institute,
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: and I just sort of quibbled with the wording that they had sort of used for Medicare
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_03: for All versus a public option.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, at first they were like, oh, that's not cool.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then they actually were like,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know what,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: as a gesture of good faith,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: what if we offered to run a poll with you where we can sort of like write
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: the questions together?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I think I felt obligated to immediately say, I was like, that sounds great.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: We can do a free poll on Medicare for All, sort of testing attitudes that people have about it.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I have to say yes.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: So we did.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: So I worked with their team.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_03: A friend of mine who's an academic pollster also sort of helped Work along with this
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: because I'm not a data scientist.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even a political operative.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a journalist.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, didn't want to get too out of my depth too quickly.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really kind of how it came about the poll finding.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: What's funny is I think it's somewhat what we expected.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: There's actually broad support for Medicare for All.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: There's majority support for Medicare for All.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then as you introduce more complex details about it, becomes a little less popular.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: There's more uncertainty.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: The poll,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: also found there's just Sort of like broad support
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: for generally more government intervention in healthcare than we have right now
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: to help people, you know, bear the cost of services and medicines, etc.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think the poll also kind of showed there's a lot of distrust in the government,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: which, you know, I don't know.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: I write about the Trump administration every day,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: so I guess that's more than fair at some level.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the big findings that jumped out to me was there was a question there.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to just read it.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine the federal government were to play a larger role
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: in American health insurance, replacing some aspects of your current insurance.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Would you support federal government becoming responsible
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: for covering prescription drugs that had 60% support or routine visits
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: to your primary care provider that had 43% strong support, 17% somewhat support?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of go through the list.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: And broadly, people are interested in more intervention.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then on the back end,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: if you come back and say, would you like it to replace your private insurance?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, we would not really.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people don't want that to actually happen.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so people seem to be
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: holding.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think what this poll shows,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: because it had a lot more meat on it than a lot of polling I've seen in the past
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: on Medicare for All,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: That people hold sort of things that are incongruent at the same time in their heads
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: when they're going through and answering some of these surveys around Medicare
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: for All.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think what we sort of all conversed about, like,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: was that we kind of suspected
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: that voters might not have necessarily strong attitudes on health care,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: other than they don't really like the system as sort of like currently constructed.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, no, so the poll did show something like 70% of people would prefer to keep their...
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Private plans or their existing plans versus sign up for a new system,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: which, you know, I think was interesting.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's perhaps not surprising.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's, you know,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: the sort of like main criticism you hear about Medicare for all from,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: certain politicians like establishment politicians and also from
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: the health care industry itself.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's like one of the main attack lines.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: It is also sort of an essential core part of Medicare
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: for All is replacing private plans with a government health insurance plan.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, not entirely surprising, but honestly, pretty fundamental to the project.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say like another thing that jumped out to me is that just broad dissatisfaction
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: with The healthcare system has constructed that people are interested in changing
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: the healthcare system in the United States of America.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not just this poll.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: This has been all summer long, the whole year we've been watching healthcare affordability,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: the problems in the healthcare system.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's not that much polling on how tricky the healthcare system is to navigate,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: but anytime someone does
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: poll it, it's like, I hate this, right?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: People just Hate the healthcare system as constructed.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's sort of broad dissatisfaction with the American healthcare system and
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: a real appetite for people to do something about it.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're sort of learning in this poll,
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: but then learning in some other research that the
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: devil sort of arrives in
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: the details about once you start picking apart,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know, what should we do about that?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: Which has been the history of universal health care,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: the fight for universal health care, like, since the 50s, right?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: There's been broad dissatisfaction with the American health care system.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you start to identify what is the specific national insurance
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: that we would like, that's when the disagreements erupt, yeah.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think the like sort of dissatisfaction is only obviously like pretty likely
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: to increase, right?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like we've seen that,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: some millions of people have lost their insurance under like
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: the Affordable Care Act, the individual health insurance plans sold on.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: State exchanges,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: and at the end of the year, a lot of people are gonna start losing Medicaid.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like some millions of people are gonna start losing Medicaid due to
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: the Trump administration's Medicaid cuts due to like,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: onerous work requirements that have been imposed specifically to push people off
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: of their plans.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, the health crisis is only like obviously getting a lot worse.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, that's in addition to every year costs go up kind of meaningfully.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_03: both in terms of what you can get on an insurance exchange and then,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: you know, what employers pay, what they pass on to their employees.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I would think dissatisfaction is going to continue.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that people necessarily have a great idea
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: of what alternatives there are out there at the moment.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're seeing that.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're seeing that crop up in other research where we're You say sort
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: of universal health care as the top line.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: You get broad agreement.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: You get agreement not just into independence,
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: not just into sort of normie Republicans that are the shrinking part of
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: the Republican coalition.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: But you even have people in the MAGA side of the political continuum saying,
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: yes, we should have universal health care.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go and ask Medicare for All,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: which does not pick up some of the MAGA things because it's been so left-coded.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then you talk about public options.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: You talk about moving Medicare down.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: On the age scale.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it picks up broad support across the political spectrum.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it has like this,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: you can see in the data, people don't really understand the different variations.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Not you and me and healthcare advocates and people who live and breathe politics,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: but sort of everybody else.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Really, it's a debate among a small group of people would be my contention is like
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: the volume of people who care about the The different types of branding and
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: the different types of solutions is not the broad public.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: The broad public just wants it solved.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: They want universal healthcare.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: And the debate among what that actually looks like is a much smaller subset of
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: the American public.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_03: it's very much like an intra-party discussion where the left has staked out Medicare
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: for All and the establishment Has staked out a public option.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: I guess,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_03: if you were like,
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: inclined to look at this poll this way,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: like I would imagine that,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_03: some people were like, this would make the case really strongly for a public option.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think the Democratic Party has been pushing a public option for like since since
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: the Obama years.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I think at least like sort of within the party,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think The left supports Medicare for All,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: in part because, well, first,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: it's the actual most efficient way to drive down costs,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: the easiest way to ensure that people have healthcare universally.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: The issue becomes of the public option is this has been promised before,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: and in the Obama years,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: they You know, gave that up as part of the Affordable Care Act debate.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, President Biden ran on a public option and then they didn't mention it once.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: He did not mention it once as president
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: mentioned it once.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm not going to I'm not going to give Joe Biden a pass on any of that.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't do.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look,
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: I would say the Medicare negotiated prices,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: which I think when we when we talk about Medicare for all,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: we're talking about the insurance structure.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: When we talk about universal health care, we're talking about all manner of different things.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about prescription drug prices.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about freedom for women to do what they want with their bodies
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: and make choices about their life.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about, are we going to cover dental and hearing?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: As in Bernie Sanders' great line,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: are we going to acknowledge that older people also have eyes, ears, and teeth?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, it's an
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: even bigger conversation.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: I go to a place of, yeah,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: being excited that the Biden administration did Medicare negotiated rates
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: of drug pricing.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: That is a hard thing to get done.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of shocked that they didn't swing a little harder on the other stuff.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well,
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: even on that,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: they settled for like a pretty small pilot program that's obviously going to expand.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm not sure it quite meets the sort of like,
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know, two decade long promise from Democrats to negotiating Drug prices.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: We're now negotiating a few drug prices, at least on a handful of very expensive drugs.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: So hopefully it will have a knock-on effect.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_03: But I think they've really struggled to meet their healthcare promises.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Because,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_03: one thing,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: I wrote this story recently where we got this letter from Barack Obama
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: when he was president to a constituent who was mad
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: that Democrats didn't fight harder to include a public option.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: And he basically presented,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: the president responded presenting all these like parliamentary defenses
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: for not being able to pass a public option,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: basically saying it wouldn't be possible through reconciliation,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: which is the way that the Senate gets around the filibuster requiring 60 vote rule.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: Requiring 60 votes for most legislation.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_03: And this letter was passed around the White House where everyone was like,
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: hell yeah, man, this is really funny.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: you read it now and it's just,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: it was really,
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: it's an artifact of a politics that have really kind of failed to take big swings
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: and failed to meet the promises that people have been told.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: And even if that's true, I can still be mad at Joe Lieberman, you know?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I can remain angry at 41 years old at Joe Lieberman.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: Just back to the point on drug prices,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: this is not the main thing that was in your poll,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: but one of the things that I thought was really interesting
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: and I thought highlighted the cognitive dissonance that
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: the general public has around health care
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Everything for government intervention
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: in healthcare,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: everything was relatively popular,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: either a majority or plurality,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: until you get to the question about should the
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: government cover Ozempic.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: That actually wasn't particularly popular,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: but if we're talking about cost savings on healthcare,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: you get massive long-term healthcare savings if
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: the government is funding things like Ozempic or Trisepitide.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because of the overall health benefits that you're sort of going
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: to not need other types of healthcare,
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: that that would actually bring down costs in a lot of scenarios.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: And the general public's like, no, we don't want to cover that for people.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I guess it probably has a well-earned reputation as a rich person's drug.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: But the other thing about it is that GLPs were developed with government money, right?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: It was developed by government scientists.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just going to assume we pay the world's highest prices for Ozempic and other GLP-1s.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_03: So that sort of raises another issue.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we should have asked if people thought it should just be free.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: To the government, you know, like this.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for the next one.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Andrew,
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: maybe for people who want to dive more into this research,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: please do a go read it yourself.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting, it's an interesting set of data.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: No one set of data is the end-all be-all.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like in a tapestry of data, right?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: But as we try to,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: as people who are advocates for the universal healthcare movement,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: trying to understand both the opportunities,
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's Medicare for All,
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: public option,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: whatever your flavor is,
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Understanding what the opportunities are,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: but also understanding some of the pitfalls, particularly around private insurance.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is all important for those of us who are practitioners in this space and want
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: to see a more moral health care system.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I encourage everyone to go read it.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to get your opinion as a person who's been,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: I hope I'm not overstating it, but a longtime universal health care advocate.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you see the movement right now?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: We have talked about at the end of this disaster,
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: this disaster will end the Trump administration.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: It will come to an end one way or another.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that most universal healthcare systems in the world are born after a crisis.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: This certainly would constitute as a crisis.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: From your vantage point, where do you see the movement?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think universal healthcare advocates have to do between now and
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: that moment when this national nightmare comes to an end?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's a tough question.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly, I think it's a movement that is in its early stages.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's still really waiting to be built.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: The thing is, no one's going to do it for us.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's something we all have to just commit to doing ourselves.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: Truthfully, you see broad support among progressives.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: You definitely see this winning
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: In democratic primaries,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: in ways we have not necessarily seen in the past,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: we're seeing a bigger appetite for progressive candidates.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't think that's necessarily at the policy level yet.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's more people want to see Democrats who are willing to fight,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: willing to fight Trump, and are less concerned about the details.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_03: As it pertains to Medicare for All and universal health care,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's a movement that is waiting to be built, and it's our jobs to do it.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hear, hear.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's probably a great place to leave it.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't agree more.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's our job is to build it, everybody.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Andrew Perez is at Zateo News.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Please go give him a follow.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: Zateo's doing great, great reporting.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of my go-tos.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for coming on, Andrew.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and we're back.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Rob, it was so nice chatting with you today.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: You too.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: We will chat again shortly, maybe on an on-call segment here.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Stay inside, avoid the smoke, maybe avoid the lettuce for a little bit.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, be good to avoid that too.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Very good.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Today's episode is written by Chris Savage, Dr.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Rob Davidson, and me, Miles Baker.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was produced by Chris Savage and Peter Ogburn.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was edited by Peter Ogburn and April Stewie.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Our music is by Annette Somerset at Duneflower Production.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if you enjoyed today's show,
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: please subscribe and leave us a rating on YouTube,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: Spotify, and Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: Your support helps others discover the podcast.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: You can also follow Paging America on Substack.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: And physicians, your voice matters.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: Join the fight for better American healthcare by becoming a member of the Committee
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: to Protect Healthcare, www.committetoprotect.org.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much, everyone.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: See you, Rob.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.