Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #237 Lenore Skenazy - Meet the World's Worst Mum

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#237 Lenore Skenazy - Meet the World's Worst Mum · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, there's no way to be a parent without being worried,
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  Speaker 2: or at least I haven't figured that out yet, but
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  Speaker 2: I feel like these new extravagant worries are super imposed
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  Speaker 2: on us by a culture.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson.
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  Speaker 4: I'm the author of a bunch of books about raising
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  Speaker 4: happy families. Kylie, my wife, and I have the parents
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  Speaker 4: to six daughters, and I'm the founder of Happy Families
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  Speaker 4: dot com dot au. Well school Holidays starts soon. In
• 0:38
  Speaker 4: the Coilson family, we're getting in early. Kylie and I
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  Speaker 4: have taken the opportunity to spend a bit of quality
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  Speaker 4: time with our children over the next couple of weeks,
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: and we hope that you get the chance to do
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  Speaker 4: the same, especially for those in Queensland in Brisbane, especially
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  Speaker 4: dealing with.
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  Speaker 3: The lockdown anyway.
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  Speaker 4: On today's podcast, we're looking back at my Parenting and
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  Speaker 4: Perspective interview series which we published last year. On episode
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  Speaker 4: one hundred and thirty three, I spoke with Lenau Scanazzi.
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  Speaker 3: Lena is the president of lep Grow.
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  Speaker 4: It's a nonprofit organization that promotes childhood independence and resilience,
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  Speaker 4: and she's also the founder of Free Range Kids, the movement.
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  Speaker 3: We talked about the moment where everything changed full in all.
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  Speaker 4: She was living in New York and suggested to her
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  Speaker 4: seven year old son that he catched the subway home.
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  Speaker 2: Our son was asking us if we would take him
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  Speaker 2: someplace he'd never been before and let him find his
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  Speaker 2: own way home on the subway, which is how we
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  Speaker 2: get around in New York City all the time. And
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  Speaker 2: this was not something that our older son had asked
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  Speaker 2: us when he was nine, So it was something that
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  Speaker 2: we really had to think about, my husband and I
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  Speaker 2: before we said yes. But then finally we did say, okay,
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  Speaker 2: we'll do this. I'll let you take the subway by yourself.
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  Speaker 5: It's kind of independent, really, isn't it. Nine year olds
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  Speaker 5: aren't usually saying give me a challenge. Let's just let's
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  Speaker 5: just drop me somewhere in the city and let me
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  Speaker 5: try to get home. So has he always been an
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  Speaker 5: independent minded kind of kid?
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  Speaker 2: I would say he is. But I think we're sort
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  Speaker 2: of right and wrong on whether kids have always or
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  Speaker 2: don't ask this kind of thing. I think that a
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  Speaker 2: generation or two before this, it wouldn't have been a
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  Speaker 2: conversation because it would have happened naturally. You know, kids
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  Speaker 2: would have been either getting on their bikes if they
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  Speaker 2: were in the suburbs, or riding the bus or subway
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  Speaker 2: if they were in the city, you know, to get
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  Speaker 2: to a music lesson, to get to school, to get
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  Speaker 2: to grandma's house, to get to you know, an empty
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  Speaker 2: lot and start a baseball game and hang out there
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  Speaker 2: all day. And so even the fact that he had
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  Speaker 2: to ask, as opposed to this just being a normal
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  Speaker 2: thing that kids just do on their own, is indicative
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  Speaker 2: of it being you know, a more sort of mother
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  Speaker 2: may I kind of era than it was before. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: he was asking, and that was unusual, but I don't
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  Speaker 2: think his independence would have been unusual in any other generation.
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  Speaker 5: When you had the conversation with your husband and then
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  Speaker 5: decided that we're comfortable with this, will give it a go.
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  Speaker 5: We'll take you into the city and we'll go home,
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  Speaker 5: and then we'll see you at home in a couple
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  Speaker 5: of hours.
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  Speaker 3: Hopefully what we did that's a bigger you're.
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  Speaker 2: Making it into a bigger deal because we were in
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  Speaker 2: the city, right We lived in Manhattan at the time,
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  Speaker 2: and we were sending him. You know, we just took
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  Speaker 2: the subway up to this beautiful, fancy department store, which
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  Speaker 2: is why it was someplace he had never been before.
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  Speaker 2: We don't usually shot there. And then all he had
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  Speaker 2: to do was come back down on the subway about
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  Speaker 2: four or five steps. And then we don't live right
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  Speaker 2: near there, so he had to take another little bus
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  Speaker 2: across town. All together, it might have taken an hour
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  Speaker 2: if that.
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  Speaker 5: When you went through this conversation and actually got to
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  Speaker 5: the point where you're like, okay, let's do this. What
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  Speaker 5: reservations did you have? At what point were you thinking?
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  Speaker 5: Are we crazy?
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  Speaker 3: Is this normal?
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  Speaker 5: A generation to go it would have been fine, but
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  Speaker 5: it's a different world. Now, What are we thinking? What
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  Speaker 5: sort of concerns did you have beforehand?
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  Speaker 2: We had the concern though, we wanted to make sure
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  Speaker 2: that he knew what he was doing. And so even
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  Speaker 2: though we are on the subways all the time, and now,
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  Speaker 2: some kids love certain things, like there are kids who
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  Speaker 2: love cars or dolls or whatever. He loved the subway
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  Speaker 2: loves you know, we love public transportation, But we wanted
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  Speaker 2: to make sure he understood that you know that you're
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: reading the map and the green line, which is the
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  Speaker 2: line that he was going to have to take. That's
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  Speaker 2: the four, five and six train. For anybody who's been
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  Speaker 2: to New York City, that that was the train you
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  Speaker 2: would have to take. And you know this is the
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  Speaker 2: stop you get off on. And then of course we're
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  Speaker 2: always on that extremely slow bus, so he knew that
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  Speaker 2: he would have to wait for the bus at the
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  Speaker 2: bus stop. I don't recall telling him this that time,
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  Speaker 2: but I've always told my kids that you can talk
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  Speaker 2: to strangers, you can't go off with strangers. So if
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  Speaker 2: you need help from somebody, certainly you can ask a
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  Speaker 2: question of somebody, but you can't get into somebody's car.
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  Speaker 2: You can't go off with somebody. And other than that,
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  Speaker 2: we prepared him with a couple of things. We gave
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  Speaker 2: him a subway map twenty dollars just in case he
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  Speaker 2: needed something went really terribly wrong and needed to take
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  Speaker 2: a cab or something quarters because even twelve years ago
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  Speaker 2: there were still some payphones in the subway, and and
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  Speaker 2: a metro card, which is the card that you slide
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  Speaker 2: through the entryway to get into the trains to pay
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  Speaker 2: your fare. And so I'd say that we didn't think
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  Speaker 2: we were crazy because we were preparing him and because
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  Speaker 2: it wasn't something that he was saying, no, Mom, I
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  Speaker 2: don't want to do this. This was his idea and
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  Speaker 2: something that we had all discussed and decided he was
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  Speaker 2: ready for. You know, I'm a reporter by trade. I
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  Speaker 2: spent years and years at the New York Daily News,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: which is if you've seen the Superman movies, it's actually
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  Speaker 2: they call it the Daily Planet, but they shoot they
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: shoot the movies at the Daily News, which is where
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  Speaker 2: I worked, and so as a tabloid reporter, I was
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  Speaker 2: steeped in the city. You know, I went everywhere on
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  Speaker 2: stories hither and yon, and I had a very i'd
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  Speaker 2: say realistic view of the city based on being very
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  Speaker 2: much part of it. And that's very different from I
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  Speaker 2: think the way the story obviously resonated around the world
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  Speaker 2: because if you watch you know, TV shows, especially Law
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  Speaker 2: and Ordered Geez set in New York City, you think
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  Speaker 2: there's a murder every second, and there are always children,
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  Speaker 2: and they're always raped beforehand, and they're always cut into pieces.
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  Speaker 2: And in fact, the crime rate. The crime rate right
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  Speaker 2: now is crazy because of COVID, but for since the nineties,
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  Speaker 2: the crime rate has been going down, down, down, down down.
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  Speaker 2: So given all that, I didn't think we were crazy.
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  Speaker 2: And in fact, there are a lot of things that
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  Speaker 2: I wouldn't let my nine year old do, and that
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  Speaker 2: I'm sorry that my twenty two year old does. I
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  Speaker 2: absolutely am terrified of cars, but I guess he has
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  Speaker 2: to drive. But taking the subway, did'n ie strike me?
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  Speaker 2: Is crazy.
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  Speaker 5: I'm speaking with Lenor Skanesi. She's the founder of the
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  Speaker 5: Free Range Kids movement and the president of Let Grow,
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  Speaker 5: a not for profit organization that promotes childhood independence and resilience.
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  Speaker 3: Will continue talking with Lenau shortly.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Famili's podcast for.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: A happier family.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: Try a Happy Families membership, because a happy family doesn't
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: just happen. Details at happy families dot com dot au.
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers. Now, this is Justin Coulson,
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  Speaker 4: and we're catching up with a reflection or a rewind
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  Speaker 4: on a conversation we had with Lenor Skannazi.
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  Speaker 3: Let's continue that chap every now and again.
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  Speaker 5: I'll send my kids off to play in the park,
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  Speaker 5: or I'll tell them to go for a walk around
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  Speaker 5: the block, or jump on their bikes and ride to school,
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: or whatever it might be. And as they leave the driveway,
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  Speaker 5: my heart goes with them, and I think to myself,
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  Speaker 5: I know what the crime statistics are loosely, I know
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  Speaker 5: that I live in a pretty safe area.
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  Speaker 3: I know all of these things.
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  Speaker 5: But there's this part of me that just seizes up
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  Speaker 5: and thinks, what have you just done. You've sent the
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  Speaker 5: ten year old on a bike ride with a twelve
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  Speaker 5: year old. What's going to happen now? It's a challenging thing.
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  Speaker 5: And then you know, maybe the six year old says,
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  Speaker 5: can I go too? And I think to myself, well,
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  Speaker 5: can I send a six year old in the care
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  Speaker 5: of a ten and a twelve year old?
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  Speaker 3: And at this point the answer is no, because she's six.
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  Speaker 5: But it's a really, really, really big challenge to kind
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  Speaker 5: of encounter and work through these things, even when you
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  Speaker 5: know rationally that it should be just fine.
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  Speaker 2: I've just said the last this weekend, my kids were
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  Speaker 2: visiting me, and they're now twenty two and twenty four,
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  Speaker 2: and when they were driving home together. I was like,
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  Speaker 2: both my kids aren't the car together? Oh no, oh no,
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  Speaker 2: which is just normal. But here's what we're talking about.
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  Speaker 2: You're saying, is it rational or irrational to worry this way,
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  Speaker 2: to calculate the odds as we're doing. I'd say that
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  Speaker 2: there's no way to be a parent without being worried,
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  Speaker 2: or at least I haven't figured that out yet. But
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  Speaker 2: what I think is different from our about our generation.
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  Speaker 2: I'm actually I'm older than you, so about your generation,
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  Speaker 2: and then then our parents are grandparents or anybody before that,
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  Speaker 2: is that when my mom let me walk to school,
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  Speaker 2: and it was age five, and she didn't do it
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  Speaker 2: because she was a free range mom or a crazy person.
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  Speaker 2: She was doing it because everybody let their kids walk
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  Speaker 2: to school at age five in the suburb where I
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  Speaker 2: was growing up outside of Chicago. She was a nervous mom,
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  Speaker 2: you know, she was a regular mom. But back then,
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  Speaker 2: you let kids do that, and when you let the
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: children go, you weren't sitting there going, oh my god,
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  Speaker 2: I hope she makes it. It's going to be about
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: a six minute walk and she's only five, and she's
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: so small, and the world is such a terrible place,
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  Speaker 2: and if anything darable happened to her, I couldn't live
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  Speaker 2: with myself.
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  Speaker 3: Forget it.
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  Speaker 2: I'm gonna go get her and drive her myself. And
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  Speaker 2: that simply wasn't the catechism back then. You didn't have
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: to go through what about you know? And then name
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: you know? What about you know? Elizabeth Smart? What about
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: you know? Maddie McCann. You weren't thinking that a normal mom,
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  Speaker 2: a normal good mom, should be thinking about the murder
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: of their child every time the child was out of
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  Speaker 2: their sight, or the death on the bike on the
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  Speaker 2: walk on you know. So that is new, and it
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: feels normal because it is normal to worry. But I
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  Speaker 2: feel like these new, extravagant worries are super imposed on
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  Speaker 2: us by a culture that I've seen up close, in
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  Speaker 2: part because of the question that was asked to me.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I let my son ride the subway. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: most interviewers at the very beginning, and I'd say the
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  Speaker 2: very beginning. For the first four years, I would say,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: we're saying, Okay, you know, he had a good time,
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  Speaker 2: you're proud, he's elated, he feels grown up. Great, that's
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: all great, But what if he hadn't come home, framing
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: it in the negative. I never had a good answer.
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  Speaker 2: How would I have felt? Funny you should ask I'd
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  Speaker 2: feel great because I don't have to feed another kid.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, there was like no normal answer that you
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  Speaker 2: could give to that question other than this is how
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: I'd feel. And in a way, this is what they
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: were trying to make me feel. They were trying to
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: take a positive story and turn it back into the
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: story that television loves, which is he never came home.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: So the fact that he did come home, Okay, let's
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: ignore that and think about how terrible a mom she
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: would have been if that had happened. And why wasn't
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: she thinking that way? You're always supposed to be thinking
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: in this extremely dark, dystopian way about your kid if
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: they're beyond your sight, and that's what's new, And I
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  Speaker 2: feel like it's superimposed by questions like that. When an
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: interview would say, well, how would you have felt, it's like,
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  Speaker 2: you know how it feel. I would feel lower than hell. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: but why are we talking about it? Why? You know,
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  Speaker 2: why can't we celebrate when a kid does something normal
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  Speaker 2: that I'd say, you know, most nine year olds could
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: do if if they felt like it, worry is normal,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: but us worrying when the kid goes around the block worrying.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: I would say, even if a six year old is
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: with a ten and a twelve year old who love
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: him or her and care about them, that's new.
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  Speaker 3: What I'm interested in is this.
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  Speaker 5: You've been doing some work with let Grow dot org
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: with one of the best thinkers in the world of psychology,
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: Jonathan Hate and.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: She's one of the best thinkers in the world of psychology,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Height. And also Peter Gray, doctor Peter Gray.
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  Speaker 3: Now you're just.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Showing off genius.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I just want to talk about
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: John at the moment because his research is what has
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: fascinated me the most, because Peter really focuses on the
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: play aspect of life and John has always focused so
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: much more on the I guess, on the social psycho
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: and the dotter and trends. And what I'm really curious
• 12:03
  Speaker 5: about is what as you've worked as a trio, what
• 12:07
  Speaker 5: have you discovered in the data. What's the data showing
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: in terms of this, well, is there a trend or
• 12:12
  Speaker 5: are we just at peak twenty twenty and everybody's you know,
• 12:15
  Speaker 5: getting so excited about the outlaws the unusual stories.
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  Speaker 2: First of all, I do think there's something I'm happy
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: you mentioned the outliers and the unusual stories because I
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: feel like they are driving so much of our regular
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: life based on the saddest, worst, most anomalous, unpredictable stories,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: that if there was some way we could get rid
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: of the story of one horrible accident or one horrible crime,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: or one horrible shooting, I think we would all be
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: at a much better set point rather than using those terrible,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: outlying stories as the norm from which we decide how
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: we should live our lives. But the thing that so
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Hyde, he's a big fan of free range kids,
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: and he's raising his free range kids, and I feel
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: great about that. But he came to me a couple
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: of years ago, and his hypothesis was that young adults,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: and by young adults remains college age and a little
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: bit beyond, were becoming fragile. And as it turns out,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: doctor Peter Gray had noticed this too. That you know,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: I think it's great when kids go for you know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: the psychological services they need. And believe me, I live
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: in New York, I'm a Jew, I'm a woman, I've
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: been through as much therapy as anybody could pasibly have
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: because of these demographics. So I love therapy. However, it
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: seems like at this point on the college campuses, and
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about before COVID because COVID is just so weird,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: that the colleges could not keep up with the number
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: of kids who were seeking therapy and who seemed to
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: be falling apart and not falling apart after a breakup
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: with a girlfriend or a boyfriend, friend or something very large,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: but often after a B like a not a bee
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: like a this B like a B minus, or after
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: an argument with the roommate, after a mouse in the dorm,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: and John and Peter were thinking, where is this fragility
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: coming from? Why do the kids think they need to
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: talk to either counselor or they have to talk to
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: their dean because they're so worried about their grades, or
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: they're calling their parents as they walk across the campus
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: because they feel afraid to walk without talking to somebody
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: while they're crossing the campus. This seemed new, and it
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: seems sad. You know here it is this, this blossoming
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: time of your life, and yet a lot of kids
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: were very very anxious and depressed. And if you're asking
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: about the data, the data are that anxiety and depression
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: among young people has been going up for the last
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: several decades. And I you talk about it, but so suicide.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: So it's not just you know, choosing to call more
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: things depressed or kids saying I'm depressed. Because there's a
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: certain social cache to it. It really does seem to
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: be weighing on the kids. And so John came to
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: me and said, I think this is starting younger. You
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  Speaker 2: seem to be the only person. I'm not the only
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: person who is trying to fight the over protection that
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: seems to be undermining kids. And let's work together and
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: start a nonprofit that tries to overthrow the overprotection that
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: is not helping kids, it's hurting kids.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: That's Lenaskenazzi.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: You can hear the full interview on episode one hundred
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: and thirty three of out Parenting in Perspective podcast series
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: as part of the Happy Families podcast.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: Kylie and I Well, we'll.
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: Be back after Easter with a mix of new episodes
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: along with highlights from previous episodes from the Parenting in
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: Perspective series, And we're really looking forward to reconnecting with
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: you after the school holidays.
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: If you enjoy the.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: Podcast, we love those ratings and reviews, you can jump
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: online to Apple Podcasts just wherever you get your podcasts.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: Actually leave those five star ratings in reviews so that
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: other people can find out about the podcast and if
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: you'd like more info about making your family happier, whether
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: it's the Happy Families membership, the books that we have
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: on offer, the webinars, any of those things, you can
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: find at all at happyfamilies dot com dot au