Latest / MUBI Podcast / Alejandro G. Iñárritu & Rodrigo Prieto look back on AMORES PERROS

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Alejandro G. Iñárritu & Rodrigo Prieto look back on AMORES PERROS · MUBI Podcast

• 0:00
  Heads up, this episode includes adult language, weird stories about turkeys and spoilers.
• 0:09
  In the summer of 2000, a Mexican director named Alejandro G. Iñárritu released his debut movie,Amores Perros.
• 0:16
  It was a giant hit at Cannes, smashed the box office in his home country, and then he took it on a victory lap around the international film festival circuit with some special guests.
• 0:27
  I brought my parents that has never been in Europe, and we were having a great time and the last day we were in Madrid and my father and my mother and I, we were having a drink and suddenly my mother turned to me and said, mijo, said "My son...
• 0:46
  "when will you return to have a real job?" She was absolutely worried.
• 0:50
  And I said, "Mom, this is my job." I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "No, no, but a real job, a real job." And she was right at that time, to be a filmmaker was like to be a beekeeper or a, I don't know, like a hunter of jaguars or something like that.
• 1:08
  - It was an eccentric kind of shit.
• 1:08
  - Jaguars.
• 1:10
  Jaguars. Exactly.
• 1:11
  It was like, "What do you do?""I'm going to hunt jaguars." It's like crazy.
• 1:18
  Yeah, Iñárritu's mom was right, in 2000 being a filmmaker in Mexico was no kind of career.
• 1:24
  What she didn't know isAmores Perros was going to change all that.
• 1:32
  It's a movie that's all about intensity, opening smack in the middle of a car chase through Mexico City...
• 1:40
  that ends with a bloody crash, and then it weaves back and forth through time to tell three stories about the people affected by the crash, each of them from different levels of Mexico City society, and all of them with dogs, which, just like their owners, both suffer and survive.
• 2:00
  It's a movie that put Mexican cinema back on the international map, definitely led to a career Iñárritu could support his family on.
• 2:07
  And a few weeks back, on the 25th anniversary of its US release, I got to talk about it with him and the guy who shot it.
• 2:16
  I'm Rico Gagliano, welcome back to the MUBI Podcast.
• 2:19
  MUBI's, the global film company that champions great cinema.
• 2:22
  On this show, we tell you the stories behind great cinema.
• 2:25
  For the last few weeks, we've been regaling you with stories all about great music needle drops in movies.
• 2:31
  We will wrap that season up next week.
• 2:33
  But today it's a special episode, my interview with Alejandro G. Iñárritu and cinematographer Rodrigo Prieto about Amores Perros. A new 4K restoration just got a re-release in North American cinemas, and you can stream it exclusively on MUBI pretty much worldwide starting July 10th.
• 2:50
  These days, Rodrigo is the go-to cinematographer for this little indie director named Martin Scorsese, you probably never heard of.
• 2:57
  Rodrigo shot Scorsese'sThe Wolf of Wall Street and Killers of the Flower Moon, to name a few of many films.
• 3:03
  And of course, Alejandro is one of only three guys ever to win back to back Best Director Oscars for his movies,Birdman and The Revenant. But back in 2001, neither of these guys was well known outside of Mexico's film industry, which had been stagnant for decades.
• 3:19
  You're going to hear us talk about how they shook everything up fromAmores' blown out, gritty look.
• 3:24
  They see it and they go,"But this looks horrible." They say, "This looks like old Mexican movies.
• 3:30
  "It looks ugly." And I'm thinking to myself,"Well, yeah, that's the point." To discovering their breakout star, Gael García Bernal.
• 3:38
  And I remember, Rodrigo, that I told you this guy has purple eyes and he looks...
• 3:43
  I said, "If I do a movie one day, I will do it with this guy." But maybe because I used to work in radio, or maybe because we've been putting out so many episodes of this podcast about music lately, I started by asking Alejandro to tell me about the gig that first made him famous as a radio DJ in the 1980s on Mexico City's 96.9 WFM.
• 4:08
  I was doing this WFM, you know...
• 4:14
  That's exactly how was my ID.
• 4:17
  Every day for five years, three hours a day.
• 4:21
  So, you know, I was a host of a three hour program with Martin Hernández, who has been my great friend and collaborator for 25 years in filmmaking, making the sound design.
• 4:34
  So we started together in this radio station, playing music, playing whatever we want and creating characters and writing stupid and funny stuff, political, provocative things.
• 4:45
  And we learned a lot about imagination in the radio.
• 4:49
  So it was great.
• 4:50
  Well, it was really, it was kind of like in between the songs, it would be kind of like radio drama or radio comedy.
• 4:55
  Exactly. What I think the people really heard, because we were very eclectic in our taste.
• 5:01
  You know, rock and jazz and folk music and, you know, every kind of classic music, everything.
• 5:07
  We really, really are into music a lot.
• 5:09
  We still are really, really.
• 5:11
  I think I'm much more into music than in films.
• 5:14
  Let me put it that way.
• 5:14
  That's my real love.
• 5:16
  So we were playing very extraordinary things.
• 5:19
  We were always experimenting, and it was what happened between the songs that really was a lot of good, sometimes stupid and terrible ideas, but sometimes a great idea that kicked and people really was wanting to hear what happened between the songs, and that was a fantastic exercise for us as a young, young, young people.
• 5:41
  - We were 20 years old.
• 5:41
  - Could I ask for like one example.
• 5:44
  Does something stand out as memorable?
• 5:47
  Rodrigo was maybe an audience, so maybe he can tell you what he remembered.
• 5:50
  Rodrigo, what was your favorite shit that we did.
• 5:53
  Yes, I remember very well. Yeah.
• 5:56
  Before I met Alejandro in person, I met his voice.
• 5:58
  And exactly right now that you were doing the intro, it really brought back memories of yeah, before knowing you.
• 6:04
  But it was a time of my life and so many of us in Mexico City that was really iconic.
• 6:11
  I mean, that was when I was, you know, becoming what I am.
• 6:15
  I mean, you know, I was working on still photography studio.
• 6:18
  I was falling in love with my then girlfriend.
• 6:20
  And that was the soundtrack of that time.
• 6:23
  WFM and Alejandro's voice and Martin Hernández and one of the vignettes that's, just so ridiculous and unforgettable was this thing.
• 6:33
  What do you mean by ridiculous?
• 6:33
  Why you mean?
• 6:35
  This is quite ridiculous.
• 6:35
  You gotta admit.
• 6:38
  You gotta admit it.
• 6:38
  I must say that they really.
• 6:41
  It was a cultural phenomenon, I think, at least of my generation.
• 6:44
  And it showed us that it was possible to do something just irreverent.
• 6:49
  Radio, and, you know, the media was very serious in Mexico and extremely serious.
• 6:55
  And suddenly to have this, these guys doing these weird things that it was refreshing.
• 7:01
  And it taught us also, yeah, you can do it.
• 7:03
  You know, you could do things like they had this vignette, the killer turkey,el pavo asesino. So it was this turkey around Christmas time that, you know, they had to-- I have to remember the details, but they had to get this turkey in with Alejandro and Martin and the turkey started killing everybody in the radio station.
• 7:21
  And they were like hiding in a closet.
• 7:23
  And the sound of the turkey.
• 7:23
  I mean, it was so ridiculous.
• 7:27
  This is not what I immediately associate, certainly with some of your earlier films that you did together.
• 7:33
  How do you go from that kind of like extreme, you know, like morning zoo irreverence to, you know, this movie?
• 7:41
  - What is the connection?
• 7:41
  - What do you mean?
• 7:43
  What do you mean?
• 7:44
  You are talking about the turkey, the assassin turkey to the assassin dog, come on.
• 7:49
  We just change the animals.
• 7:52
  I see it was all...
• 7:52
  No, you're just a one trick pony.
• 7:55
  Exactly.
• 7:56
  No, I think that was 15 years before I made the film.
• 8:00
  When you are 20 years, you know... And it was, again, it was great exercise of things.
• 8:06
  We once create a very chaotic situation in Mexico City because we invented a guy who locked himself in a metal box in the middle of a highway in Mexico in El Periférico, and it was so well produced that all the people start avoiding that connection in the highway.
• 8:26
  And the authorities call us to say that if we don't stop the shit, they will really, you know, shut down this radio station because-- And we were interviewing this guy and this guy was a rebel complaining about all the things politically that was happening in Mexico and accusing the politician, but real accusations.
• 8:45
  And it was funny, but it was a very political critic to the government.
• 8:50
  And again, I think it's about, honestly, the images that we were about to trigger with sound and the rhythm of the music and the atmosphere of the music, in a way.
• 9:01
  The audio for me is kind of a definite element in a film experience, you know?
• 9:08
  So I think in a way, it was a way to get people imagination, you know, connected with.
• 9:13
  And then obviously, again, this was 1985 and it was 1999 when we didAmores Perros.
• 9:19
  15, 14 years later.
• 9:21
  Well, in between this, you start a production company, which is, I believe, where you first started working together.
• 9:27
  - Z Films, is that what it was?
• 9:27
  - Z Films, yes.
• 9:29
  Tell me how you ended up collaborating first of all, the two of you.
• 9:32
  Rodrigo, you have better memory than me.
• 9:35
  Well, I was shooting movies and commercials and, you know, starting my career, so I was a gun for hire.
• 9:41
  And, it was Alejandro's partner, Rahul Olvera, who gave me a call and said, hey, come over to Z films with your demo reel.
• 9:49
  And then there I went with, I think it was a three quarter inch demo, you know, with my commercials that I'd done and pieces of movies.
• 9:55
  I think I even had some stuff from film school still on my demo.
• 10:00
  So I got hired.
• 10:01
  First, I shot with Raúl, some commercial for cars or something.
• 10:05
  Before Alejandro showed up to meet you.
• 10:07
  And then I remember after we'd shot the commercial or-- I think we'd already done it.
• 10:13
  And I heard the voice.
• 10:14
  I heard Alejandro's voice coming in to the room and then his--"Oh, that's a face," you know, because back then, you know, you couldn't, you know, Google.
• 10:23
  Okay, who's the, you know, you just have to meet the person.
• 10:25
  Yeah, you didn't know what the DJ looked like.
• 10:27
  How did Alejandro compare to your mental image?
• 10:30
  You were pretty disappointed.
• 10:32
  It was, because it was a fabulous voice- and then suddenly, "Oh my God."- "Look at that face!"- Is that the guy?
• 10:37
  - What is this, homunculus?
• 10:41
  So, yeah, then we did a bunch of many, many commercials.
• 10:46
  And lots of them have this irreverent thing to them too, that lots of them were comedies, little comedies that were very strange and so much fun because Alejandro also was writing these commercials, and Raúl Olvera, they were, you know, creative partners.
• 10:59
  So there was total creative freedom.
• 11:01
  It was like, "Hey, Alejandro, how about we try this?" And if he liked the idea, we'd do it.
• 11:05
  Or, you know, and it just felt very free and very wonderful.
• 11:09
  And I remember this was my experience of how I got into Amores Perros, I remember the commercials we were doing started shifting from these wacky comedies to dramas, and Alejandro was writing them, right.
• 11:21
  So I'm like, this guy wants to do a movie or, you know, or maybe would do a-- Could do a movie.
• 11:27
  We interviewed Gael about this movie for an episode that we did about sort of like Mexican film history.
• 11:34
  And he remembers actually the first time working with you guys being in a commercial that he describes as just him crying in a room.
• 11:44
  Is that what you're talking about?
• 11:45
  Is that, was it one of these kind of dramas?
• 11:47
  Yeah, when we shot that, remember that was a micro drama.
• 11:51
  - A silent micro drama.
• 11:51
  - What was that commercial?
• 11:55
  That was a big campaign that actually it won many awards.
• 11:59
  It's fun. You can watch it I think in YouTube.
• 12:02
  The radio station that I worked was, ten years later they hired me to direct a commercial for them, a campaign.
• 12:09
  Oh, an ad for WFM.
• 12:11
  So I wrote like a lot of little tiny vignettes, very beautiful.
• 12:16
  Weird with the wide lens.
• 12:18
  Remember it was an eight millimeter.
• 12:20
  Oh yeah.
• 12:21
  Everything was in film and it was silent, 10, 15...
• 12:25
  Actually it was like TikTok things that were short, right to the point, very striking, very provocative, and completely a question.
• 12:37
  And this was Gael sitting in the bath in this blue room, exactly the same color as the Amores Perros character.
• 12:44
  He was sitting in a room that was designed by Brigitte Broch, the same production designer of Amores Perros, a friend and production designer of four films.
• 12:53
  And he was sitting and I just said, just go think about something that has really affected your life.
• 12:58
  And he was silent and it was an amazing, beautiful thing.
• 13:02
  And then the camera tilt a little bit to the right.
• 13:06
  And in the wall there was a WFM written in handwritten, like a graffiti.
• 13:11
  It was completely out of the blue, weird, absurd, and powerful because it was completely contradictory about what you feel in the beginning and then at the end.
• 13:21
  And I remember, Rodrigo, that I told you, this guy has purple eyes and he looks...
• 13:27
  I said, "If I do a movie one day, I will do it with this guy." Yeah, what was it-- Tell me about what you saw in him that was so...
• 13:35
  You say he had purple eyes.
• 13:36
  I mean, there's a look to him, he's a beautiful man, but, like, what about it was like,"This guy's gonna be in my first movie." I don't know. There's something...
• 13:44
  Kathryn Brillhart, the director, Kathryn said something that really we agree on.
• 13:50
  She was saying that the story of cinema is built in 12, 15 faces... ever.
• 13:57
  And who was the director who said that, the most interesting landscape of all is the human face?
• 14:06
  Is it Antonioni?
• 14:07
  Maybe it was Antonioni, I don't remember, but it's one very accurate description of a human feature.
• 14:14
  When you have that, the landscape of a face can be infinite more than any valley, any mountain.
• 14:20
  And when I recognize a face that transmit a lot of contradictions, a lot of profound things, a lot of mirrors in the mirrors, in the mirrors, I felt that Gael has it. And it was a kid.
• 14:35
  This was a 15 year old, I don't know, kid at that time.
• 14:39
  Yeah, I think he told me 17.
• 14:41
  But his eyes and his nose and his lips, it was I remember it felt like, you know, one of my favorite films is Le Samouraï- with Alain Delon.
• 14:51
  - The French film.
• 14:53
  When Alain Delon did that film,Le Samouraï, I think he was very like what, 20 something?
• 14:57
  So anyway, it reminds me of that power of Alain Delon in that film Le Samouraï.
• 15:03
  Lesson to actors: take the commercial role.
• 15:07
  Lesson to actors: You might end up in some movies.
• 15:10
  Lesson to actors: Actually, this leads me to a question.
• 15:12
  Lesson to actors: Another thing he told me was that when he first started acting, it was like not even on his radar that he would be a film actor, because there weren't that many movies even being made in Mexico.
• 15:21
  Lesson to actors: Tell me, maybe we can go to you, Rodrigo, on this.
• 15:24
  Lesson to actors: Tell me about, like, what the landscape was of Mexican cinema before this movie was made.
• 15:29
  Lesson to actors: Yeah, it was pretty dismal.
• 15:31
  Lesson to actors: And, I don't know how I dared to study to be a cinematographer or anything in film.
• 15:37
  Lesson to actors: You know, it was irresponsible because there weren't-- Not only that many films being done, I would say maybe ten, 15 movies a year, of which maybe four were government sponsored.
• 15:51
  Lesson to actors: And those might be interesting films, but it was a very specific people, you know, clique that were doing those films.
• 15:57
  Lesson to actors: And then the super commercial, badly made and horrendous movie.
• 16:01
  Lesson to actors: So it was a bleak panorama.
• 16:04
  Lesson to actors: And then getting for me as a cinematographer, getting into a union, for example, was impossible, just undoable.
• 16:10
  Lesson to actors: It was-- And by law there was no independent, nonunion cinema.
• 16:16
  Lesson to actors: For movies to be done and distributed, they had to be union films.
• 16:19
  Lesson to actors: That's it.
• 16:21
  Lesson to actors: But what happened was that the producers started realizing, wait, our movies are just doesn't look like anything in the world, you know, we're falling behind.
• 16:30
  Lesson to actors: And directors started getting eager.
• 16:33
  Lesson to actors: They were seeing what we were doing on film school and going, you know, I'm talking about cinematographers like, you know, Emmanuel Lubezki or myself, Guillermo Navarro that we were, you know, just trying to do something different and that's how suddenly the unions had to open and let us in.
• 16:47
  Lesson to actors: Really? They were like watching your work at a film school and being like, we got to change this system to let these guys in.
• 16:53
  Lesson to actors: Yes. What happened is that there was a loophole.
• 16:56
  Lesson to actors: It was possible to work in a union film if the producer paid the salary of a union DP to the union and then paid you whatever.
• 17:05
  Lesson to actors: So through that loophole, we started making movies and that's how we got in.
• 17:08
  Lesson to actors: And by the time Amores Perros came around, I had already done, that was my ninth movie.
• 17:13
  Lesson to actors: I had already done a few films, but I mean, really, you know, there were so few movies made that it wasn't a choice.
• 17:19
  Lesson to actors: You know, it was, they're offering you a film, I'm doing it.
• 17:22
  Lesson to actors: Take it. That was just whatever there was.
• 17:24
  Lesson to actors: Whatever there was.
• 17:25
  Lesson to actors: And in a way, for me, that was actually good because I got to really dip into all sorts of genres and anything very commercial, silly stuff, and also all sorts of things, horror.
• 17:36
  Lesson to actors: You know, everything.
• 17:37
  Lesson to actors: So part of the, let's say the rebellion that we were doing as cinematographers was trying to show that we could do sleek cinematography as opposed to this sort of, you know, what was being done in the '70s, '80s, that looked, just it looked ugly.
• 17:54
  Lesson to actors: Right?
• 17:56
  Lesson to actors: So we were trying to make movies that looked great.
• 17:59
  Lesson to actors: So, but by the time Amores Perros came around, I'd been doing that already for eight movies.
• 18:04
  Lesson to actors: So I was ready to shift my style.
• 18:07
  Lesson to actors: And Alejandro was a little skeptical, actually.
• 18:09
  Lesson to actors: I remember when we started talking about Amores Perros and all this, and, he told me, you know, I'm not sure you'll want to do this movie, because he knew that I was doing all these, you know, wonderful lighting shafts of light and, you know, really soft, beautiful lighting, in the style of the-- Like, very painterly, maybe.
• 18:26
  Lesson to actors: Painterly. Yes.
• 18:28
  Lesson to actors: So but I was eager to do something else.
• 18:30
  Lesson to actors: And I had just recently found a book by Nan Goldin.
• 18:34
  Lesson to actors: I can't remember the title.
• 18:35
  Lesson to actors: Something mirrors and I found it very powerful.
• 18:38
  Lesson to actors: And the images and color and the intimacy and the harshness.
• 18:42
  Lesson to actors: And I took the book to my first meeting with Alejandro.
• 18:45
  Lesson to actors: I had it in my bag, and Alejandro, he told me this, you know, I don't know if you'll want to do this style.
• 18:50
  Lesson to actors: I'm thinking for this movie, but and he brought- out the same book, which he had.
• 18:52
  Lesson to actors: - Wow.
• 18:55
  Lesson to actors: We both had this exact same reference.
• 18:58
  Lesson to actors: And I mean, immediately we knew.
• 19:00
  Lesson to actors: We knew, you know, what the path was right there.
• 19:02
  Lesson to actors: Describe Alejandro, what that book is.
• 19:05
  Lesson to actors: What what is the texture that you were going for?
• 19:07
  Lesson to actors: And were there movies that had that texture maybe that influenced you?
• 19:12
  Lesson to actors: Well, I think, as Rodrigo said, it was more the immediacy of having characters that really breathe and things that smell, you know?
• 19:22
  Lesson to actors: And I always mention, Yol, the one that won Palme--Yol, yeah, it won the Palme d'Or in the '80s.
• 19:28
  Lesson to actors: I only know that movie because we're thinking of doing an episode about it.
• 19:30
  Lesson to actors: It's Turkish.
• 19:32
  Lesson to actors: I mean, I think that film really, really marked my aesthetics.
• 19:35
  Lesson to actors: I think that we explored that in Babel.- But I will say Happy Together- Happy Together. of, I think Wong Kar WaiHappy Together. It was a wonderful experience to see it at that time.
• 19:47
  Lesson to actors: Breaking the Waves of Lars von Trier...
• 19:50
  Lesson to actors: - Oh yeah.
• 19:50
  Lesson to actors: - Obviously that was-- That does have a similar handheld kind of gritty style.
• 19:55
  Lesson to actors: Exactly.
• 19:55
  Lesson to actors: And very, very human driven.
• 19:59
  Lesson to actors: It's funny how handheld has been misunderstood, no?
• 20:02
  Lesson to actors: Because when you have John Cassavetes doing this in the '70s, the grainy kind of thing, people feel that it's a very easy kind of independent, free style.
• 20:10
  Lesson to actors: And it's not.
• 20:14
  Lesson to actors: It's absolutely a very delicate aesthetic decision.
• 20:19
  Lesson to actors: You know, that apparently is improvised and free and whatever happened, you capture. It's not capturing, it's absolutely controlled.
• 20:28
  Lesson to actors: Actually, the Dardenne brothers, for example, that is another incredible filmmakers that I like and-- The Belgian team.
• 20:35
  Lesson to actors: And I became to know them a couple of times and talking to the Dardenne brothers, they rehearse-- Every scene that you see of the Dardenne brothers that feel like, "Oh, this is kind of documentary style,"handheld and blah, blah, blah." They are planning, every single movement of the camera is absolutely planned.
• 20:55
  Lesson to actors: And in this case, I wanted the uncertainty of the moment.
• 20:59
  Lesson to actors: But to get that, I knew that I had to plan it.
• 21:03
  Lesson to actors: And we storyboard every moment and we plan every single sequence.
• 21:08
  Lesson to actors: It was a very dissected disguise in this kind of handheld thing.
• 21:14
  Lesson to actors: That's why I end up shooting 1,000,000ft, which is...
• 21:18
  Lesson to actors: - Which is crazy.
• 21:18
  Lesson to actors: - Yeah.
• 21:21
  Lesson to actors: Well, let me ask about the film that you wanted to give this treatment.
• 21:25
  Lesson to actors: We've kind of jumped ahead of the actual, you know, story and all that stuff.
• 21:29
  Lesson to actors: What were you, you're about to make your first movie, I'm sure this wasn't the very first project that you considered.
• 21:34
  Lesson to actors: What were the elements that you wanted for your first film?
• 21:37
  Lesson to actors: I wanted a motion and rhythm.
• 21:41
  Lesson to actors: I knew that, I knew that that was my thing.
• 21:43
  Lesson to actors: I knew rhythm because I have rhythm.
• 21:46
  Lesson to actors: I'm, in a way, a frustrated musician, but I play drums, I play guitar, I love music, I know rhythm, and in the radio, I think I got trained in a way to know the rhythm of a flow of narrative or storytelling with music, with pauses, with silence.
• 22:02
  Lesson to actors: So that was crucial for me.
• 22:05
  Lesson to actors: But more than anything for me, was the emotional honesty that it has to have. That you are hit and you said, "I feel it." If I didn't feel it, I knew that nobody would feel it.
• 22:18
  Lesson to actors: And I think, Rodrigo, when they tell me, do you were aware when you were shooting Amores Perros that it would be a good film?
• 22:24
  Lesson to actors: Honestly, I didn't have time to think about it.
• 22:27
  Lesson to actors: I was just really focused that every scene...
• 22:30
  Lesson to actors: What is the feeling and the honest emotion behind every action and every image and every word.
• 22:37
  Lesson to actors: What in this story, though, made you feel like this was going to be the vehicle for that?
• 22:42
  Lesson to actors: This would be the perfect vehicle for rhythm and emotion.
• 22:45
  Lesson to actors: Because this story where the accident happened in the beginning of the film, basically we start with the consequence, not with the cause, right?
• 22:54
  Lesson to actors: We see the effect before anything happened.
• 22:57
  Lesson to actors: The exterior accident happened, and then what happened in the interior of all these characters, which in a way even being broken as hell, they need love.
• 23:08
  Lesson to actors: And that's a very, very powerful thing, you know what I mean?
• 23:11
  Lesson to actors: And honestly, we are, we are...
• 23:11
  Lesson to actors: Dogs do not resemble us.
• 23:16
  Lesson to actors: We are resemble of dogs.
• 23:16
  Lesson to actors: We are like dogs.
• 23:18
  Lesson to actors: Sometimes we can be loyal, we can be instinctual, and we can be raw and wild.
• 23:24
  Lesson to actors: And in a way, there was a mirror with this kind of animal side of us that is absolutely fragile, vulnerable, scary as hell.
• 23:34
  Lesson to actors: So all these elements in the story were there, people wishing- love for the wrong reasons.
• 23:38
  Lesson to actors: - Yeah.
• 23:40
  Lesson to actors: But I also love the idea that this-- You're a drummer and we're talking about rhythm and it's weird.
• 23:45
  Lesson to actors: It's like this movie starts with like a, you know, cymbal crash.
• 23:48
  Lesson to actors: - Absolutely.
• 23:48
  Lesson to actors: - It doesn't start with a roll and lead up to something.
• 23:52
  Lesson to actors: It's just like... we're off.
• 23:52
  Lesson to actors: Energy immediately.
• 23:57
  Lesson to actors: I can imagine that being of interest.
• 23:59
  Lesson to actors: Let's talk about the shooting of this thing, finally, we get to this.
• 24:02
  Lesson to actors: You've explained kind of why you wanted that gritty look, Rodrigo, though, Gael told me that you used something, it was like-- The way he-- He called it something like a silver retaining mechanism or something.
• 24:15
  Lesson to actors: A process to get the visual look that you wanted.
• 24:18
  Lesson to actors: - And he described it as risky.
• 24:18
  Lesson to actors: - Yeah.
• 24:20
  Lesson to actors: And I want to know, first of all, like why you settled on that process and why was it risky?
• 24:25
  Lesson to actors: Yes. Well, first, I'll talk a little bit about, some things that just touch upon things you were talking before and the sound, particularly on the rhythm, when we were shotlisting the film, like Alejandro says, the design of it, we sat together and shotlisted the whole film.
• 24:40
  Lesson to actors: But a lot of that shotlisting and the design of it was sound.
• 24:45
  Lesson to actors: A lot of it. I remember, and I still do that all the time, which is shots have a sound to them, have a feeling, emotion.
• 24:52
  Lesson to actors: But, you know, a close up may sound a certain way and a wide shot sounds different.
• 24:57
  Lesson to actors: So we describe it that way to each other, you know, like...
• 25:01
  Lesson to actors: That's far away, right.
• 25:02
  Lesson to actors: - Or... That's close.
• 25:02
  Lesson to actors: - Yeah.
• 25:05
  Lesson to actors: And Alejandro would go-- And then we cut to the blood on the thing... You know, and everything has a sound.
• 25:12
  Lesson to actors: Just to be clear about the scene that you're talking about, there's this amazing moment where the hitman character, I think he's paid- to kill this guy at a restaurant.
• 25:20
  Lesson to actors: - Yes.
• 25:22
  Lesson to actors: And he watches him from outside through the restaurant window and then shoot him through the glass.
• 25:31
  Lesson to actors: And you just see the guy's blood hit a sizzling pan- on the table in front of him.
• 25:34
  Lesson to actors: - Exactly.
• 25:36
  Lesson to actors: So the way into that scene for you was the sound of the sizzle, basically.
• 25:40
  Lesson to actors: Yes. That would be the type of sound that we'd be describing.
• 25:43
  Lesson to actors: Certainly the cars, right. When they're breaking... and then the...
• 25:48
  Lesson to actors: You know, everything had a sound.
• 25:50
  Lesson to actors: And it sounds different depending on the shot, you know.
• 25:53
  Lesson to actors: So that was a huge part of it.
• 25:53
  Lesson to actors: And then the rhythm.
• 25:56
  Lesson to actors: So the shots were designed, but I was operating the camera.
• 25:59
  Lesson to actors: And so there was-- I felt the rhythm, of the performance.
• 26:04
  Lesson to actors: So it was a dance with the actors and I would feel the freedom also with Alejandro of, okay, so the character is looking at a certain thing.
• 26:13
  Lesson to actors: So I would pan the camera immediately and maybe things like that weren't completely planned, but it felt right.
• 26:19
  Lesson to actors: So within that structure that we built, there was that little bit of improvisation that had all to do with rhythm.
• 26:25
  Lesson to actors: But, in terms of the look of it, I remember Alexandra and I, you know, we saw justBreaking the Waves and lots of films that were handheld and we felt that it was, you know, great and all that, but we needed something distinctive of Mexico City, something that felt like our city, the grime of it, you know, and the-- And also, there's a thing that we didn't like of the look of the city, which is a pollution, that grayness.
• 26:49
  Lesson to actors: We wanted to cut through it somehow.
• 26:52
  Lesson to actors: So we started testing different techniques of developing the film and all sorts of things, different film stocks, different lenses.
• 26:59
  Lesson to actors: And one of the techniques we tested was, yes, some call it bleach bypass actually, or silver retention is another way of calling it.
• 27:07
  Lesson to actors: Anyway, it wasn't very well known what would happen actually with a negative if you went through this process.
• 27:13
  Lesson to actors: So there was a pushback.
• 27:15
  Lesson to actors: And I remember particularly our financiers, we showed them the tests.
• 27:19
  Lesson to actors: I remember that day and it looked really grainy, very high contrast like you see in the movie.
• 27:25
  Lesson to actors: So they see it and they go, but this looks horrible.
• 27:29
  Lesson to actors: They say, this looks like old Mexican movies.
• 27:31
  Lesson to actors: It looks ugly.
• 27:33
  Lesson to actors: And I'm thinking to myself, well, yeah, that's the point.
• 27:36
  Lesson to actors: But you know, Alejandro, who's a master at many things, but one of them is persuasion.
• 27:42
  Lesson to actors: And I think that's an important thing for directors, you know?
• 27:46
  Lesson to actors: - You mean stubborn?
• 27:46
  Lesson to actors: - Yes.
• 27:48
  Lesson to actors: But you can be stubborn, but not persuasive.
• 27:51
  Lesson to actors: And, you know, he explained the whole notion behind it and basically told him it's that or I'm not doing the movie.
• 27:59
  Lesson to actors: - It's this look or goodbye.
• 27:59
  Lesson to actors: - Is that right, Alejandro?
• 28:02
  Lesson to actors: - You were ready to walk for this.
• 28:02
  Lesson to actors: - Yeah.
• 28:04
  Lesson to actors: It's always a battle with this kind of decision, especially when you're a first filmmaker, you have to cross a lot of lines and you have to convince people.
• 28:13
  Lesson to actors: So yeah, that was one of the many things you need to really explain and make a point about why.
• 28:20
  Lesson to actors: And I'm glad that we did, because I think the film really got a very distinctive way to do things, and it was prohibited around the world because it's so toxic that that is actually forbidden around the world.
• 28:32
  Lesson to actors: You cannot do that anymore in any laboratory.
• 28:34
  Lesson to actors: - The process.
• 28:34
  Lesson to actors: - The process is.
• 28:36
  Lesson to actors: Like literally the chemical process is outlawed.
• 28:38
  Lesson to actors: It's prohibited. It's against the law because it's absolutely toxic, because, I mean, it's dangerous.
• 28:43
  Lesson to actors: Actually, it was already prohibited in the United States.
• 28:46
  Lesson to actors: So thanks that we were in Mexico we could do that.
• 28:49
  Lesson to actors: But then after that, I think even in Mexico is prohibited now.
• 28:53
  Lesson to actors: Now, obviously it's a filter of Instagram and it's boring now.
• 28:57
  Lesson to actors: Yeah.
• 28:57
  Lesson to actors: What gave you the balls to do this?
• 29:01
  Lesson to actors: I mean, like it's your first.
• 29:02
  Lesson to actors: We are Mexicans, my friend, remember?
• 29:06
  Lesson to actors: But I mean, within this, I mean, you're telling me about this place.
• 29:09
  Lesson to actors: Movies are barely being made.
• 29:09
  Lesson to actors: This is a movie-- They're telling you like, this looks ugly.
• 29:14
  Lesson to actors: This is your first movie.
• 29:15
  Lesson to actors: What makes you go like,"Yeah, screw you."- "I'm doing it this way."- Let me tell you-- Let me tell you what I think it is.
• 29:21
  Lesson to actors: The fact that we didn't have an industry.
• 29:25
  Lesson to actors: The fact that you have to die to become a DP. I will say most of all filmmakers in my country, if you were lucky, you have one film.
• 29:36
  Lesson to actors: If you are incredibly successful, you have 2 or 3 and you are like,"Fuck, that guy has 3 films." What I'm saying is, normally you will have one chance in your life, and in that film you have to put all what you have.
• 29:50
  Lesson to actors: That's it.
• 29:51
  Lesson to actors: So I was not sure if I will have first, a second film and let aside a career.
• 29:57
  Lesson to actors: So that's why, like, there's nothing to lose.
• 30:00
  Lesson to actors: Let's just put all our balls, whatever balls we have.
• 30:04
  Lesson to actors: Yeah, as Eminem said, you did not miss your chance to blow opportunity comes once in a lifetime.
• 30:09
  Lesson to actors: Exactly.
• 30:10
  Lesson to actors: So that's why.
• 30:10
  Lesson to actors: It's not like build to, it was just like an existential nihilism.
• 30:16
  Lesson to actors: It's a nihilist kind of thing.
• 30:16
  Lesson to actors: It was one and that's it.
• 30:20
  Lesson to actors: Well, let me ask you this'cause the movie-- And you can argue that this movie really changed things for Mexico.
• 30:26
  Lesson to actors: I mean, it made it possible for that not to be the case that filmmakers could make more than one movie.
• 30:30
  Lesson to actors: It was a viable place to make movies.
• 30:32
  Lesson to actors: I've always wondered, it's rare-- I don't know if I've ever spoken to a filmmaker that's really made one of these, like, pivot point movies, and I'm wondering what that feels like, once you've done that, it's like everything is different now, and it's because of something you did.
• 30:46
  Lesson to actors: And I can imagine that being both a thrill and like terrifying because it's like, how do I, how do I top that?
• 30:52
  Lesson to actors: What did it feel like for both of you to have been part of this thing?
• 30:54
  Lesson to actors: It's funny that you ask this because yesterday I was talking to my son Eliseo, who loves films and music and with my daughter María, too, we were talking about this exactly what's happening now with these two kids, the Back Room director and Obsession director.
• 31:13
  Lesson to actors: Yeah. These two, hit horror movies right now.
• 31:15
  Lesson to actors: And the pressure they are putting in these kids.
• 31:18
  Lesson to actors: I mean, they are, one is 20 years and the other one 24 years.
• 31:21
  Lesson to actors: I haven't seen the films and I'm dying to see it because I would love to see it this week.
• 31:25
  Lesson to actors: I haven't been able to, I've been traveling.
• 31:28
  Lesson to actors: But what I'm saying is all the articles and all the pressure, the media and everybody is putting on them, they are like, these guys are the new Spielberg or Lucas, and the industry is depending on them.
• 31:43
  Lesson to actors: And the weight of that expectations that people is putting on these kids has to be so difficult.
• 31:50
  Lesson to actors: And we were talking about that yesterday with my son said, this is so unfair because these guys should be let alone and just be developed because to make a good film...
• 32:00
  Lesson to actors: To make a film is very difficult.
• 32:03
  Lesson to actors: To make a great film is almost impossible.
• 32:06
  Lesson to actors: To make a wonderful, great film is a miracle.
• 32:10
  Lesson to actors: I mean, it's not the-- You can have the best script, the best actors, your best intentions.
• 32:14
  Lesson to actors: You put yourself...
• 32:16
  Lesson to actors: There's nothing that guarantee a great film.
• 32:19
  Lesson to actors: It's literally a miracle.
• 32:19
  Lesson to actors: We have to be conscious about that.
• 32:23
  Lesson to actors: It doesn't depend on our will or our intentions.
• 32:26
  Lesson to actors: It's a lot of elements that are there.
• 32:28
  Lesson to actors: So the answer is because when this happened to me, fortunately, it takes me a lot of time to really realize a lot of things.
• 32:36
  Lesson to actors: Sometimes my happiness come one month after a wedding of a friend.
• 32:41
  Lesson to actors: I said, "Ah, yeah, I'm so happy." You should be happy that day.
• 32:44
  Lesson to actors: I said, "No, you know, I didn't get it." You know what I'm saying is emotion comes a little later for me.
• 32:50
  Lesson to actors: I'm a little more reflective.
• 32:51
  Lesson to actors: But what I'm saying, it took me time to realize that Amores Perros was a thing.
• 32:56
  Lesson to actors: And when they were trying to tell me, "Well,"the second film is the hardest.
• 33:00
  Lesson to actors: "That's when you really go down." You know, all that kind of predictions of failure that people have, they were trying to inject on me.
• 33:09
  Lesson to actors: And at that time, Rodrigo and I, we were already in Memphis shooting 21 Grams with Sean Penn and Benicio Del Toro, Naomi Watts.
• 33:16
  Lesson to actors: And I was not very much interested or worried about what it would be.
• 33:20
  Lesson to actors: Actually, I will say that21 Grams was much more risky thanAmores Perros. One hundred times.
• 33:27
  Lesson to actors: So that film, 21 Grams is the most radical film I will ever done, because every scene was not related to the other.
• 33:35
  Lesson to actors: Temporally it's the most crazy film ever done.
• 33:38
  Lesson to actors: But I was not thinking about the success.
• 33:41
  Lesson to actors: I was just thinking, "My God, I'm doing a second film." That was the whole.
• 33:46
  Lesson to actors: And I want to encourage the young guys, that does not allow them to think about the future.
• 33:52
  Lesson to actors: It's the present.
• 33:53
  Lesson to actors: The films are done with the body, not with the mind and concepts and success.
• 33:57
  Lesson to actors: That's a bullshit.
• 33:57
  Lesson to actors: That doesn't exist.
• 33:59
  Lesson to actors: The body has to be there.
• 33:59
  Lesson to actors: You have to be present in a film.
• 34:02
  Lesson to actors: That's what I love about film.
• 34:02
  Lesson to actors: That it's almost a meditation.
• 34:05
  Lesson to actors: So your body has to be there.
• 34:07
  Lesson to actors: Your eyes, your guts, your emotions, your skin, your smell.
• 34:11
  Lesson to actors: And that's-- That's what-- You make a film with the body.
• 34:14
  Lesson to actors: And that's what we try to do.
• 34:15
  Lesson to actors: And so I didn't went through that period of being scared about it, thankfully.
• 34:19
  Lesson to actors: You just kept running.
• 34:21
  Lesson to actors: Maybe irresponsibly or stupidly, but I was lucky about it, you know?
• 34:25
  Lesson to actors: How did you feel about it, Rodrigo?
• 34:27
  Lesson to actors: - Did you feel the same way?
• 34:27
  Lesson to actors: - Well, um...
• 34:29
  Lesson to actors: - Did it impact you?
• 34:29
  Lesson to actors: - Oh, yeah.
• 34:30
  Lesson to actors: But I remember that I had decided to basically escape Mexico because of the reasons we were talking about.
• 34:38
  Lesson to actors: Before Amores Perros, I had done this movie with Carlos Carrera calledUn embrujo, under a spell, and it had some recognition.
• 34:45
  Lesson to actors: I won an award in San Sebastian.
• 34:48
  Lesson to actors: So I thought, okay, maybe this is a time to try my luck in other markets, right, and go to Los Angeles.
• 34:53
  Lesson to actors: And then Amores Perros, suddenly we're going to do this.
• 34:58
  Lesson to actors: So I told my agent, you know, I'm not going right now.
• 35:00
  Lesson to actors: I'm going to do this movie.
• 35:01
  Lesson to actors: Remember this name, Alejandro Gonzalez Iñárritu.
• 35:04
  Lesson to actors: I remember telling him that.
• 35:05
  Lesson to actors: And I'm going to do this movie in Mexico City and then I'm-- Then I'll move.
• 35:08
  Lesson to actors: So I shot it and then we moved.
• 35:11
  Lesson to actors: So we were in the midst of, you know, moving to LA and all that with my family, my two little daughters, when everybody was celebrating in Cannes.
• 35:19
  Lesson to actors: And I remember I was in the DMV, get my license, and that's when Alejandro called me.
• 35:24
  Lesson to actors: He was half drunk, drinking champagne and telling me,- "We won!"- I was not half drunk.
• 35:28
  Lesson to actors: I was absolutely drunk.
• 35:31
  Lesson to actors: Yes, yes.
• 35:32
  Lesson to actors: So that was, that was kind of my experience of that moment, but...
• 35:36
  Lesson to actors: It was a long distance celebration for you.
• 35:38
  Lesson to actors: Long distance celebration.
• 35:40
  Lesson to actors: And of course, didn't expect that level of attention.
• 35:44
  Lesson to actors: And it's been really interesting for me.
• 35:46
  Lesson to actors: We were, we were these fans, right?
• 35:48
  Lesson to actors: We were, you know, influenced by world cinema.
• 35:51
  Lesson to actors: And then suddenly to be, let's say, shooting in India for The Glorias and the gaffer and everybody there, were huge fans of Amores Perros and telling me how it's influenced their careers or, or say, for example, with Ben Affleck, when I did Argo and he confessed that a scene, a persecution scene in the town was completely influenced by the car crash in Amores Perros and for me to hear that, us, who were just these kids, you know, figuring it out, literally,"So how do we do this?""Well, how about this?" And then suddenly we're influencing others in the world.
• 36:27
  Lesson to actors: It's pretty astounding, I must say.
• 36:30
  Lesson to actors: Yeah, it's nuts.
• 36:31
  Lesson to actors: And now you've worked with like Martin Scorsese, the guy you were probably studying in film school.
• 36:36
  Lesson to actors: I cannot afford-- I cannot afford anymore, Rodrigo Prieto.
• 36:39
  Lesson to actors: That's the problem.
• 36:39
  Lesson to actors: That's the problem.
• 36:42
  Lesson to actors: Marty-- Marty spoiled Rodrigo already.
• 36:44
  Lesson to actors: So anyway, one day, one day...
• 36:44
  Lesson to actors: I will, I will sell my house and I will get you back.
• 36:52
  Lesson to actors: Rodrigo Prieto and Alejandro G. Iñárritu.
• 36:55
  Lesson to actors: The 25th anniversary 4K restoration of Amores Perros is streaming exclusively on MUBI, almost worldwide starting this week, Friday July 10th.
• 37:03
  Lesson to actors: And hey, if you're in the Los Angeles area, I will be introducing a screening of the movie at the most wonderful, Vidiots in Eagle Rock, July 16th.
• 37:11
  Lesson to actors: Check the show notes for a link to tickets.
• 37:13
  Lesson to actors: And that's the MUBI Podcast for this week.
• 37:16
  Lesson to actors: Next week we wrap up our season about great movie needle drops with a look back at the film that launched an unlikely UK movie and TV franchise about misunderstood kids in a misunderstood subculture.
• 37:28
  Lesson to actors: The skinhead movement was born out of a love for reggae, and I couldn't believe that there was such a thing as a black skinhead.
• 37:35
  Lesson to actors: I'd never, ever, ever heard of it.
• 37:37
  Lesson to actors: We'll dive into the grooves of one of my favorite movies ever,This Is England, featuring stars Jack O'Connell and Andrew Shim and Neville Staple of ska legends The Specials.
• 37:46
  Lesson to actors: Iron your thin tie and follow us for that.
• 37:48
  Lesson to actors: While you're at it, you should scroll back to our 2025 episode I've been mentioning, exploring the film history and culture of Mexico City.
• 37:55
  Lesson to actors: It features Gael García Bernal talking about Amores Perros.
• 37:59
  Lesson to actors: Really, go listen to that whole season, which we called, Traveling Shots.
• 38:02
  Lesson to actors: I got to travel the world to check in on global film culture.
• 38:05
  Lesson to actors: Tough job, but someone had to do it.
• 38:07
  Lesson to actors: Meanwhile, if you love the show, do hit pause and leave a five star review wherever you listen, won't you?
• 38:12
  Lesson to actors: It helps others find and love us too.
• 38:14
  Lesson to actors: You can also find me on Threads and Instagram at Rico Gagliano.
• 38:18
  Lesson to actors: That is Rico G-A-G-L-I-A-N-O.
• 38:18
  Lesson to actors: I'll see you over there.
• 38:23
  Lesson to actors: And now let's roll credits.
• 38:25
  Lesson to actors: This episode was written and hosted by me, Rico Gagliano.
• 38:28
  Lesson to actors: Ciara McEniff is our producer along with assistant producer, Kat Kowalczyk.
• 38:31
  Lesson to actors: Christian Koons is our editor.
• 38:31
  Lesson to actors: Mastering by Stephen Colon.
• 38:35
  Lesson to actors: Our theme music was composed by Yuri Suzuki.
• 38:37
  Lesson to actors: Special thanks this week to Raúl Chavez Rosette for taping Rodrigo.
• 38:40
  Lesson to actors: And to Nida Karnani, Sofia Chacon, Sandra Gómez, and Caroline Maisel.
• 38:45
  Lesson to actors: This show is executive produced by me along with Efe Çakarel, Daniel Kasman, and Michael Tacca.
• 38:50
  Lesson to actors: And as always, to watch the best in cinema, subscribe to MUBI at mubi.com Thanks for listening.
• 38:56
  Lesson to actors: Go watch the movies.
• 38:58
  Lesson to actors: And it wasn't Antonioni, it was Irvin Kershner.