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The APM President handover: reflections on project trends and future ambitions · Project Podcast

0:06
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the APM Podcast.
0:09
My name is Professor Adam Bodison, Chief Executive of APM,
0:13
and today I'm delighted to be joined by two of my esteemed
0:16
colleagues at the association, Sue Kershaw and Yvonne Thompson.
0:20
Despite being nearly 100 episodes into the APM podcast,
0:23
this is actually the first one we've ever recorded in person
0:27
and we're here at our head office in Princess Risborough.
0:30
And Nat perhaps should give you a small hint that the format
0:33
today is going to be a little different to our usual format,
0:36
but more on that in a moment. Perhaps now is a good time for
0:41
us all to introduce ourselves. So, Sue, would you like to go
0:43
first? Lovely.
0:45
Thank you Adam, really pleased to be here as well with your
0:47
good self and with everyone. It's a lovely afternoon.
0:51
So I'm a civil engineer in the programme manager and I was born
0:54
on the construction site in New Zealand, so that was his kind of
0:57
indicator of where I'd end up in my career.
0:59
So being a civil engineer is something that really excites me
1:03
as well as being a programme manager.
1:05
I get out of bed every day for difficult complex mega projects,
1:08
things that really, really challenged me and they're
1:11
really, really difficult. Anything that is easy is too
1:14
boring and doesn't work. I've worked in the UK and
1:17
overseas, and I'm a great proponent of assurance and
1:21
delivery partner roles because I don't think any client anywhere
1:23
in the world can actually deliver things unless they have
1:27
a delivery partner to help them. And maybe more of that later as
1:30
we talk about options on that. A past president of APM and a
1:34
currently an honorary professor at UCL Bartlett School of
1:38
Sustainable Construction. Wow, I've heard you introduce
1:41
yourself a lot of time so and every time I learned something
1:43
new today it was that you were born on a construction site at
1:46
that's when I shall make a note of and Yvonne, how about you
1:49
next? Ohh wow.
1:50
Well, thank you for inviting me to be sorry A.
1:53
Part of this very special podcast but also I am so
1:57
privileged and honoured. For the button to be passed by
2:00
Sue to me as the I'm currently still president-elect, but to be
2:07
shortly to be president of the APM.
2:10
My background has been mostly in marketing and communications, so
2:15
I spend a lot of time on committees.
2:17
I run a women in Business Network.
2:20
I run my marketing and PR company.
2:24
My background, or my Forte if you like, is equality and
2:29
diversity, for which I've received a Commander of the
2:34
British Empire 21 years ago. I have two honorary degrees.
2:41
Um, around the work I do. In equality and diversity and I
2:47
have 4 fellowships recognising those same areas.
2:52
But I'm so looking forward to learning a lot about project
2:56
management because this is an area that I am quite new to.
3:00
So I'm looking forward to learning a lot.
3:02
But I hope I'm able to bring a. Lot as well.
3:05
I'm sure that will be true. For those of you who don't know
3:07
me, I'm Adam Bodison. I'm the chief executive of AP.
3:10
I've been here nearly three years now.
3:11
I was saying earlier on that seems like it's gone like
3:13
lightning, appointed during the pandemic and still here today.
3:18
So as I mentioned, Kelly, the format of this podcast will be a
3:21
little bit different to usual. Normally on this podcast, we
3:25
kind of interview a guest. But this time, I think we're
3:28
going to try and run it more as a an informal roundtable chap
3:31
between the three of us. Because of course, as you, as
3:34
you mentioned, Yvonne, the primary reason we're here today
3:36
is to mark the handover in the presidency at APM from Sue to
3:41
Yvonne. And so that gives us a really
3:43
good opportunity to step back, reflect on the state of the
3:46
project profession more broadly and in particular, some of the
3:49
changes we've seen over your time, Sue, as President and some
3:52
of your priorities Evonne, going forward for the next few years.
3:56
So let's get going And maybe, Sue, just to start us off with
4:00
that kind of looking back kind of theme, perhaps you could give
4:03
us a few reflections on your presidency and where you think
4:06
we are as a profession now compared to when you started
4:10
with us back in 2019? Indeed.
4:12
I thank you, Adam. It's been a real joy in this
4:15
position. They're gonna know you're going
4:16
to enjoy it as well. It's a it's a great privilege to
4:19
be president of APM and to be the first female one was
4:22
absolutely super. And I know you do equally well
4:25
in your role. So what what did I sort of think
4:29
about in my presidency? One was looking at complexity,
4:32
which we all experienced in our everyday life, things more
4:34
complex, more difficult. But what does that mean for
4:37
projects and programmes? How do we need to deal with it
4:39
differently? And we can look at maybe how we
4:41
talk about governance in that respect on programme directors.
4:44
But there is something we cannot ignore.
4:46
Things are getting more and more difficult.
4:48
And we've got to find a way as a profession to get through that.
4:52
We've moved from mega projects to giga projects and last five
4:54
years, trillions of pounds and dollars are being poured into
4:58
these things. We must actually deliver what we
5:02
say we will deliver. And I think, and I think a bit
5:04
differently, but we're getting there.
5:06
We're not ignoring it. I think the other thing is
5:08
connectivity. And I know with your background,
5:11
being a professor as well, Adam, you're reaching into the
5:13
universities, actually looking at how we can build MBA's into
5:18
delivery MBA rather than business MBA's, you know,
5:22
reaching into schools, reaching into other membership,
5:25
professional organisations, how can we work Better Together?
5:28
That has come a long way over the last few years.
5:31
And I'm so pleased that we're now working closely with PMI
5:35
and, and the recent announcements made in that
5:37
respect really to me is is almost the icing on the cake.
5:41
This you know, both our organisations together, we are
5:43
going to be the only ones in the world that are going to be
5:45
heading up project and programme management.
5:47
Well, you know, that was one of the very first calls I made when
5:50
I started in the in the role was to try and get that relationship
5:53
back on track. But so you you talked about kind
5:56
of that move from mega projects to giga projects.
5:58
You know, these are enormous. I mean, it's hard to almost kind
6:02
of imagine the scale of some of these things that we're talking
6:05
about. And presumably these very, very
6:09
large projects are there because we're trying to solve some of
6:12
the world's biggest problems. I mean, for those people that
6:15
maybe are head down getting on with it today, can you give us
6:18
some insights into the kinds of problems that these projects are
6:21
trying to tackle? Yeah, you're right.
6:23
They're huge. They're huge and they're
6:25
problems we can't ignore anymore.
6:26
It's the human race. So a very UK example is we're
6:30
now going to build reservoirs for the first time in 30 years.
6:33
No one can remember how to build reservoirs because they will
6:36
retired or moved on. If we don't have those
6:38
reservoirs, we don't have clean water and it goes on and on and
6:41
on. So how do you deal with that?
6:43
And how do you, when you're spending billions, how do you
6:46
make sure you got the right governance around that spending,
6:48
the right risk approach, the right people leading it, the
6:51
right understanding of what you're doing, not only in
6:54
delivering the project, the programme, but the impact of
6:56
that on the environment, on the communities.
6:59
You know, the ripples go on and on and on.
7:01
We can't just think in silos anymore.
7:02
So we have to embrace complexity and ambiguity because you can't
7:08
come up and say this is how you do mega giga projects anymore.
7:12
There there isn't gonna be a check sheet of it.
7:15
It's gonna be how do we talk together to get the best
7:18
solutions and the best outcomes? Yeah, it's interesting isn't it
7:21
because I think one of the perceptions out there of the
7:23
profession is it's all about process.
7:25
And one of my own reflections on three years in is it, I hear
7:29
more about people usually than I do about process, although you
7:32
know process obviously important as well.
7:34
If I let let's turn to yourself, obviously just coming into the
7:38
role, as you say you've started in a few weeks time, you you've
7:43
had a little bit of time to get to know us as an organisation.
7:45
I know you came to our annual conference a few weeks ago, but
7:49
I wonder if you might share a little bit what you think your
7:51
priorities will be as president. Where do you think we need to be
7:57
positioning ourselves going forward?
7:58
What kind of opportunities do we have that we need to kind of get
8:02
hold of? Well, that is a very big
8:06
question which commands a big answer, but.
8:09
I don't think we have time for that right now.
8:11
But you know, as some people will have seen, I've listed my
8:17
priorities or what I real are the priorities, which is around
8:21
embracing innovation, diversity and inclusion is a must.
8:25
I mean, all of these are really important and I think we have to
8:29
look at all of them with the same, with the same focus and
8:35
the same will to make them. And I I'm being quite ambitious
8:38
because I've got 8 priorities I've got.
8:42
And I'm I am. Really hoping that if we don't
8:46
get all eight, we will get some of them.
8:49
So as I said, diversity and inclusion, championing
8:53
sustainability in green initiatives, I mean, that's what
8:57
the world is all about now, networking.
9:00
So it's hugely important. And for me, networking, quite
9:06
often people take it as something, just something you
9:10
may or you may not do. And for me it's a must because
9:15
unless you're networking and you're increasing and widening
9:19
your influence, you're just going to be standing still,
9:22
which is not good for anybody. Professional development, we all
9:27
know how important that is. And that is one of the key
9:30
things navigating remote, remote work.
9:33
I mean, what what is the next step to remote working?
9:37
Will more people remain at home? Will more people come back?
9:41
Will we see an increase of people wanting to do more days?
9:44
Will we return to five days or even four days a week?
9:50
That is such a big question and I think it's something that
9:53
everybody has to focus on and the big, big talk again right
9:58
now, AI and technology, I mean, but you know, what I really want
10:03
to highlight is the point that you just made Sue around
10:09
reservoirs and, and you know, how do we prepare today for
10:13
success tomorrow? How do we pass all that
10:16
knowledge on? How do we keep those
10:18
conversations going? How do we make it work?
10:21
So for me, although I I have a lot of ambition for APN, I think
10:30
all of those points are really important and I'll be talking to
10:35
Adam about which ones we prioritise very soon.
10:37
I'm sure it's one of the things I enjoy about the relationship
10:41
between the CEO and the presidency is you get the, the
10:43
Direct Line. Sue certainly made use of that
10:47
and I'm sure that will continue with with with yourself.
10:49
Yvonne, couple of reflections. So AI, we're going to come back
10:53
to a bit later in our conversation, but you mentioned
10:55
about the, the kind of remote working, hybrid working.
10:58
And, and I just share with our listeners really how we do that
11:01
at APM, because we use an approach, which I call the
11:04
footpath approach, which you may be familiar with from your
11:08
infrastructure work, which is rather than set a policy and
11:11
then say this is the policy, you know, all in or all out or, or
11:15
whatever combination is, we actually started by looking at
11:19
what people did naturally 1st and then built our policy around
11:24
that. And what we realised is that if
11:27
we did anything, which was just on a kind of a weekly kind of
11:30
basis, that wasn't going to work.
11:31
And so we ended up going for, we want people in a minimum of four
11:34
days per month. Because what that meant is if
11:36
you were far away, you might be able to come in and do a block
11:39
of four days. Or if you're local, you might do
11:41
a day a week and all kinds of other arrangements.
11:43
And the reason we call it the footpaths analogy is that on on
11:46
buildings, when a build like a new housing estate and so on,
11:50
one of the things they do before they build the footpaths is they
11:53
look where are people walking and then they build the
11:55
footpaths. And I thought that's quite a
11:57
good way of building policy in an organisation.
11:59
I think more organisations are to do that type of thing.
12:02
I think absolutely. You mentioned networking.
12:06
I wonder if I just might ask about that with, with lots of
12:09
people working from home now, I think particularly those who are
12:12
early career professionals, maybe they haven't had that
12:14
experience of working in an office with other people before.
12:18
Some of them might not know what good networking looks like.
12:20
I mean, what advice would you give to someone who's listening
12:22
to this now, Yvonne, who thinks, yeah, I I'd like to network, but
12:26
I'm not sure how to start or what it looks like.
12:29
What? What advice would you give?
12:31
Well, I always say find your focus and focus on your focus
12:35
and then apply the four P's network with passion, with
12:40
purpose, with profile and with positioning.
12:44
So with your purpose, you don't turn up to an opening of an
12:50
envelope. That's the saying.
12:54
So be very focused about. Why your networking, where your
12:59
networking and who you're networking with and if that fits
13:03
to your career path and helps you along your way, it's almost
13:09
like. Making a networking.
13:12
Road map in a way, so you decide where it is you need to be and
13:18
you map out your journey to get there through networking.
13:22
So network with purpose. Why are you going?
13:25
Keep Flings 6 serving men. Do you know that one?
13:30
I don't know it, but do you know?
13:31
It tell me Kipling had six serving men.
13:34
They taught him all he knew their names.
13:38
Were where, why, when, what, and who.
13:41
Ohh, OK. I'm I'm sure I've got that
13:44
slightly wrong, but looking up if you just write those things
13:47
down and. Apply it.
13:49
To almost anything from writing a business plan to writing a
13:55
press release to writing a story.
13:58
You know what is it you want to do, why you want to do it?
14:01
How? It's all there.
14:04
So it's. For me it really is.
14:07
About passion, purpose, profile, does it help your profile?
14:12
What does that do with your profile?
14:14
For me, you always try to network upwards.
14:17
It's fine networking with your peers, but think about
14:20
networking. Up rather.
14:22
Than staying on the same level. It's all about just making sure
14:27
you're on the right trajectory. OK.
14:29
Well, I think that's some really good advice that really good
14:31
advice for for for anyone at any stage of their career.
14:33
In fact, I think and then and then just lastly before we move
14:36
into some of the questions, you talked about the importance of
14:39
diversity, equity, inclusion and going into something that we've
14:43
we have to kind of two focuses on that APM just kind of an
14:46
internal focus as to what we do kind of organisation with our
14:49
own staff and volunteers. But there is then also how we
14:52
influence the profession and what our expectations are of the
14:56
profession. Obviously everybody's talking
14:59
about this, but I know from talking to my fellow CEO's and
15:02
other organisations think people wake up with a really good
15:06
intention around this area. But so many people get it wrong.
15:11
Why? Why?
15:11
Why do you think that is? If I'm why?
15:13
If people really want to get this right, why do we get it
15:15
wrong so often? It's it's.
15:20
Difficult. And the answer is different for
15:22
every company, every CEO, every HR you know, depending on what
15:28
your what your company is. But for me, I always feel that
15:32
if there is a will, there is a way.
15:35
People always talk about hard to reach communities.
15:38
There are no longer any hard to read.
15:40
Everyone's got a phone, most people have access.
15:43
To the Internet. Yeah.
15:44
I would say are they hard to reach or are we hard to access?
15:47
That's how I always like to turn the question over, Ted, you
15:49
know? There you go, and you're
15:51
absolutely right. And it's the will to get these
15:54
things done. I know I wanted to talk about
15:57
menopause, where nobody would ever touch that subject before,
16:01
but now it's. All it's.
16:03
All that the organisations talk about and for me equality and
16:07
diversity is a very much like that.
16:09
It's just about getting it into getting into the DNA of the
16:15
organisation really. OK, well, I'm sure that will be
16:18
a recurring theme as we go through today.
16:20
So Sue, let's come back to infrastructure and major
16:23
projects. You know, one of the things
16:25
we're obsessed about in the project profession, and it's a
16:28
good obsession I think is learning lessons and applying
16:32
lessons. What do you say over the kind of
16:36
past five years, would you say that we've learnt from kind of
16:39
major projects in infrastructure and what would we need to change
16:42
to kind of successfully deliver the pretty ambitious
16:45
infrastructure ambitions that we have for for this country?
16:51
That's a really good question and we have learned a lot.
16:53
And in fact, the UK is the number one infrastructure
16:56
organisation country in the world.
16:58
And you think about that, I have tiny, we are now we have people
17:01
from the States, Australia, Canada seeing, I'm seeing the
17:04
Singapore and Canadians this week, you know, they're coming
17:07
to see us to learn how we deliver projects and programmes.
17:11
And that's when the general public go, Oh yeah, it's twice
17:14
as much since two years late, blah, blah, blah.
17:16
And the the basis for all of that is we have to squeeze in
17:20
the business case initially into Treasury in such a way that it
17:24
will get passed. If you ever did go back and put
17:28
the final business case into Treasury, we would never have
17:31
got the green light for Crossrail, the Olympics, HS2 or
17:34
any of them. So there's a huge you can't get
17:37
the politics out of the projects and programmes.
17:39
That's the hardest thing because most project and programme
17:42
managers aren't naturally political.
17:45
So we need a lot of guidance on that and I think we are learning
17:48
on it. And then from a practical point
17:50
of view, we have ever since the Olympics than a proper lessons
17:53
learnt exercise on each one of these mega projects.
17:56
And not at the end when everyone's disappeared, but
17:59
methodically as we deliver, we capture all of these and we put
18:04
them in a decent data set and make them accessible and free to
18:08
access. So every single project can
18:10
learn from each other, and that is something that's really
18:13
special, I think. I think that's where AI can
18:15
help, Karna, because, you know, if you've got all of this data
18:17
from so many projects and to be able to, you know, how long
18:20
would it take a person or even a group of people to go through
18:23
those types of things, The lessons learned, that could be
18:26
different. And I suppose if we're talking
18:28
about infrastructure. So it would be a shame for me
18:31
not to let you give a plug for the MBA that you're involved
18:35
with, right? So consider that a nudge in the
18:37
right direction. Thank you Adam.
18:38
Thank professor to professor. It is so exciting and the UCL
18:45
Bartlett School is sustainable construction and I when I was
18:48
visiting professor, we can't, what can we do that's different?
18:51
How can we make sure the next cohort, the CEO's and CFO's in
18:55
this area really do know their staff?
18:58
And we came up originally what was going to be an MSC, but then
19:01
we've actually got for the first time ever in the world, we've
19:04
got the agreement to have an MBA in something that wasn't about
19:07
business. So it's about major
19:09
infrastructure delivery and it's set to for people aged 35 to 45
19:15
and it's set so it fits in with their working lives.
19:19
So it's 22 week stints every four months.
19:22
They all have mentors and they mentor each other.
19:26
We have keynote speakers, some of the great and the good.
19:28
We talked about Crossrail, Mark Wilds as an example.
19:30
He came in and gave his speech. We had an extra small word from
19:34
our IPA came and gave his speech.
19:36
So it's real time, hands on learning from the experts with
19:40
the top of the range backup from academia and also backup from
19:43
industry as well. I, I lecture there on assurance,
19:46
for example, which is something I think we need in mega and Giga
19:49
project. So it is real, it's of the
19:51
moment and it's tangible so that when the students do their final
19:56
year project, it has to be on something that their company
20:01
needs to change or do differently.
20:03
So it's totally LinkedIn and, and I don't know if anyone seen
20:06
any of the LinkedIn expressions of joy from these students, but
20:10
it's quite fundamental and very moving that we've hit the spot
20:13
exactly. Right.
20:14
Yeah, I've seen that. And I think it's part of a wider
20:16
move that I've seen of MBA programmes really embracing
20:20
project management. I see that whether it's as a
20:24
core part of the programme or as a kind of specialist pathway, I
20:27
just see that more and more coming through.
20:30
And The thing is just one final thing I just ask you about to in
20:33
almost every public sector document that I read at the
20:36
moment, I keep hearing about this, the role of the
20:38
integrator. This is something that you and I
20:41
have spoken about before. People out there may not be
20:44
familiar with that. I wonder if you could educate us
20:46
and give us the kind of the elevator pitch for the the role
20:48
of the integrator. Thank you, Adam.
20:50
It's right at the top of my mind at the moment for other reasons.
20:54
But yes, it is a very, very resurgence element from Project
20:59
13, which had the role of the capable owner, it had the
21:03
integrated, it had digital, it had organisation governance.
21:07
They were the five pillars of Project 13.
21:09
Project 13 was a movement, it wasn't mandated.
21:11
So some organisations like Anglian Water, for example, have
21:15
totally embraced it and that's how they deliver all their
21:17
projects and programmes. So in the very much bit like APM
21:22
is very agile fleet of footwear. We're not doing it like this
21:25
because we've always done it. But that integrated role works
21:28
underneath the client and literally, as it says,
21:32
integrates everything for them. So if you were building your
21:36
house, if you like, you would then as the sponsor you'd say
21:40
I've got this much budget and you're integrated, then go and
21:42
do everything else for you and your house would be delivered.
21:45
That's the concept and it's come from the petrochem industry who
21:49
do it very well and some of the military people do it well.
21:54
We don't in infrastructure do it well.
21:56
We have silos, whether it's a supply chain consultant,
21:59
contractor, whoever, you know you can work on some projects.
22:02
We've got 13 different organisations, so if you don't
22:05
join them up, you're really not going to succeed.
22:08
So I'm very excited about this. I think goes hand in hand with
22:11
delivery partners and with programme management.
22:14
I think it's something to be hearing a lot more about going
22:17
forward and if one obviously you're kind of new to this
22:19
world, you know, all this talk of infrastructure and so on.
22:22
Sorry, I put you on the spot briefly if I may.
22:25
But I mean any reflections coming into this on where you
22:29
think we are as a country around major programme delivery
22:32
infrastructure and so on. Is obviously you kind of got a
22:37
kind of very broad view kind of not the not the APM view
22:41
necessarily yet. And any any immediate thoughts?
22:44
Yes, I think the most glaring thing or thing that comes to me
22:48
immediately is HS2. It's taking so long, I don't
22:54
know what the cost is now. And I think our super saying
22:57
that's kind of almost the case with every every publicly funded
23:00
project because of the nature of the politics involved in it.
23:04
But but you kind of touch on another issue that if one, which
23:07
is the kind of public perception of projects and and I was
23:12
talking about the, you know, do we have an image problem?
23:14
Because, you know, I think when do people, the general public
23:17
hear about projects, right? It's never good news.
23:19
It's always in the media. You know, you mentioned HS2, you
23:22
know, that's obviously had a pretty challenging time in the
23:25
media. But if it's not HS2, then it's a
23:27
government IT project that's overspent or the NHS often takes
23:32
a battery and you know, new hospitals and so on.
23:34
So the general public has this perception of all projects
23:39
overspend, all projects don't deliver the benefits.
23:42
All projects felt particularly publicly funded projects, I
23:44
would add, because of the scrutiny.
23:46
I mean, one, I don't think that's a fair reflection of
23:49
necessarily where we are. But again, I just with the
23:52
benefits of you as somebody coming into the into our
23:55
profession, if you like and joining us is that is that the
23:59
perception you think that's out there and what do you think we
24:01
need to do with your comes background and PR background to
24:03
change it well. Well, I think, I think.
24:05
That is the general perception, but I, I would want to kind of
24:10
step back and say one that I think was going that way but has
24:16
redeemed itself is the Elizabeth line.
24:20
I just think that travelling on, it's like a futuristic
24:25
experience. So I know you have to kind of
24:28
oversell an upsell, but it's almost that we talk about all
24:34
these things as though they're going to be the greatest thing
24:37
that ever was. It doesn't, it doesn't manage
24:42
expectations. Yeah, I suppose.
24:44
I was, I would say it's one of the greatest branding exercises
24:47
in history because Crossrail was really challenging for all kinds
24:50
of reasons. But the Elizabeth lines a huge
24:52
success. And I don't know what the secret
24:55
sauce was in there, but it seems to me like the answer when we
24:58
get to the end of HS2 eventually is give it a really good name
25:02
and maybe that'll solve all the problems.
25:03
I don't know. So let me ask you about this
25:07
perception issue. One of the things I always think
25:11
is a kind of counterbalance to some of these perceptions is
25:14
chartership, you know, because that is about competence.
25:17
It's about saying, look, we've got people here who can deliver.
25:21
I wonder if you what your thoughts are on both both
25:24
chartership as a tool here and what else do we need to do to
25:27
kind of tackle the image problem?
25:29
Thank you, Admire. I mean, I was a great believer
25:31
in chartership. I remember when we actually were
25:33
granted it and we had to sort of get together to celebrate in the
25:38
House of Commons with the Speaker.
25:39
And that moment in time was was a moment of history because we
25:43
finally got in my perspective to be a professional institution.
25:50
And that to me is you can't fall lower ever than what your
25:54
profession is. And to give people the
25:56
opportunity to be a professional project manager or, or, and a
26:03
professional engineer or professional accountant, QS or
26:05
whatever, that gives you the opportunity to give people two
26:09
chances in their careers immediately or a choice of both
26:13
and mix it up. And it is being recognised by
26:16
clients as something that's super important.
26:18
It's been recognised by the individuals and it's been
26:20
recognised by the organisations in which they work.
26:23
It's, it's a win, win, win completely.
26:25
And I just love the fact that we've gone from potentially
26:29
perception wise, you know, our volunteering group of people who
26:32
do good things into this professional body.
26:35
And you know, they were the other big professional bodies
26:38
and numbers wise, we get getting there as well.
26:41
It's it's fantastic. And once you have that gravitas,
26:44
I think you then have the voice and and people will listen,
26:47
government will listen and and we will be seen to be that that
26:50
go to professional place. Yeah.
26:52
I think a key moment for me will be going forwards when the
26:57
public perception shifts because they go actually we've got
27:00
competent people now delivering projects.
27:02
And so we can now have confidence whether it be a
27:04
publicly funded project or a privately funded project, we can
27:07
now have confidence that these things are going to deliver the
27:09
benefits. That would be a big moment.
27:13
We've kind of flirted around the topic skills here.
27:16
We know you kind of hinted at it earlier, Sue, that there's this
27:20
big international ambition, you know, things like the United
27:24
Nations Sustainable Development Goals.
27:25
There's a lot of things we want to deliver as a world.
27:27
We have to deliver in fact, as a world, right?
27:29
You know, some extra existential type challenges that we face.
27:34
But we know that we haven't got enough project professionals to
27:36
deliver on them. And we also know that the ones
27:39
that we have got, we need to constantly upskill them because
27:42
the world is changing so much and the role is changing so
27:45
much. So how do we, how do we tackle
27:49
that skills gap? If you like skills challenge,
27:52
which is looking like it's going to get harder, not easier over
27:56
time. So I'll start with you and then
27:57
I'll come over to you. To you, everyone.
27:59
I think one is to celebrate the Broadchurch.
28:01
We are, so we have project managers who project manage
28:04
small, very bespoke projects up to these multi-million giga and
28:08
everything in between to celebrate that and, and try and
28:11
entice the people within those projects and programmes to bring
28:15
more people in that they know. I've seen huge amounts of people
28:19
decide to be project managers after they've been on site for a
28:22
year, for example, in their, they've been away having a year
28:25
out and seeing what it means for infrastructure in different
28:27
worlds. I, I think bringing that Broad
28:30
church, celebrating at Broadchurch, bringing people in
28:33
and then looking at some of the professions that are dying.
28:37
So what professions are dying? Well, quite a lot through AI
28:40
you're going to change immensely.
28:42
So there's a pool of people there you could maybe come
28:45
across. I think the beauty of project
28:46
management, it's, it's basically common sense.
28:51
It is basically common sense and common sense a lot of people
28:55
have that we could bring and we could retrain.
28:57
We could retrain a lot of the finance people that are now
29:00
being not used because things have been done in different
29:04
ways. You know, we could actually just
29:06
think about things a little bit differently and welcome people.
29:09
And the things that we were talking about earlier was the
29:11
armed forces, when people finished their turn with three
29:14
5-7 years, they are perfect project managers.
29:17
So they overlap with other professions, with other sectors
29:20
and so on. That can be almost a hook to
29:22
bring them in because they already know part of the job.
29:25
Yeah. Really interesting and fun.
29:26
Your reflections. It's almost like.
29:30
Teaching young people about financial competence from an
29:37
early age. We need to get them into the
29:42
mindset of project management from an early age.
29:47
I think also what they then go on to do with what they've
29:51
learnt is up to them because I think as we're finding
29:54
practically anything you're involved in, there is a project
29:58
management element to it. Also.
30:01
I feel that we need to be doing lifelong learning.
30:06
Refreshing, upskilling constantly because as we all
30:11
know, by the time everything is moving so fast, by the time you
30:15
take two or three years to learn one thing, it's moved on.
30:21
Or even the job that you take now will no longer be a job in
30:27
two or three years time. So it really is all about just
30:31
keeping that constant lifelong learning and upskilling
30:35
constantly. Yeah, absolutely.
30:38
I always say we want children in school saying when I grow up I
30:41
want to be a project, Exactly. Project Professional.
30:44
So. Yeah, that's what we want,
30:46
right. Two, two of the kind of big
30:47
topics I want to talk about and I think I'll ask each of you,
30:50
one of them if, if, if I may. So if I'm going to start with
30:53
you and ask you about sustainability, massive topic.
30:58
We know that it's often built into projects and certainly when
31:02
it comes to the chartered project professionals, it's one
31:04
of the things that's there as as a competence.
31:07
So they're more likely to have that built into their projects.
31:11
But what impact do you think project professionals have on
31:16
net zero and could we be doing more?
31:20
Wow, that is a big question. I think we could always.
31:24
Be doing. More I heard something earlier.
31:26
I think we need to be. We need to be more agile in our
31:31
thinking, if that's the right word.
31:33
And we need to be more open to accepting the, the changes that
31:40
come with the change, if you like, of the world.
31:42
I mean, where we can, we need to look at everything, examine
31:46
everything. And for sustainability, it is.
31:52
It's. Crucial.
31:53
It's, you know, it's beginning or end of the world, isn't it?
31:56
Really. So it's that wide range of
31:57
voices. I have a phrase for this, which
31:59
I don't know if I've said to either of you before.
32:00
I loved it. I I said we need to harness the
32:03
wisdom of crowds. Yeah.
32:05
Because actually it's a breadth of ideas that you need to kind
32:09
of bring in. OK, thank you for that.
32:11
And Sue, we hinted about AI earlier on and data analytics.
32:17
How are these going to change the profession?
32:19
In fact, how have they changed the profession?
32:20
Probably already there. And what can those people who
32:24
are already practising project professionals do to kind of
32:27
prepare for what comes next? That's a really good question.
32:31
And it was buzzing in our conference everywhere.
32:34
Everyone was talking about digitalization and AI.
32:36
And the the big conclusion I came to after listening to some
32:40
fantastic speakers was it's here, embrace it.
32:44
And The thing is, if you fight, if you cast your mind back to
32:48
the bad old days. I had one boss, for example, in
32:50
Thailand who said there is never going to be a computer on
32:54
everyone's desk. This reminds me of when I was in
32:56
school and my maths teacher told me I had to learn how to
33:00
multiply numbers because people aren't going to be walking
33:03
around with a calculator in their pockets all day, you know?
33:05
And now we all walk around with a smartphone, right?
33:07
Yeah, exactly right. So so embrace it cuz it does
33:11
free up people's time. And I've got examples of that in
33:14
terms of bidding. Bidding for major projects costs
33:18
millions of pounds and you often lose it because not everyone can
33:21
be the winner. If everyone's got AI, everyone's
33:24
got access to almost at the end of their at some point in time,
33:28
producing almost the same response to that bid.
33:31
So then how do you as a client, pick who you want to work for?
33:36
Well, it's either going to be the money or the people.
33:39
And I think that frees up people to actually add much, much more
33:43
to project delivery than ever before.
33:45
And it gives you that thinking time as well.
33:47
And that's the big thing to me. You can be stuck in process or
33:50
stuck in bid writing or whatever and you're not actually on what
33:54
you should be on and then bringing what needs to be
33:56
brought. Through I'm gonna ask you on,
33:58
I'll put you on the spot if I may suit regulation.
34:01
Should I be regulated? I don't think you can regulate
34:04
it. OK.
34:05
I think the cats out of the. Book.
34:07
But the reason I'm asking is because one of the facts that I
34:10
think was widely reported in the media earlier this year was that
34:15
because the immense kind of computing power that's needed to
34:18
process kind of AI searches and so on.
34:20
The statistics was something like for every 20 to 50 searches
34:25
of something like Chappie or Gemini, it takes the equivalent
34:29
of a 500 millilitre bottle of water to to do the necessary
34:33
cooling in the data centre. And so I suppose that kind of
34:36
brings into play a kind of a water security issue.
34:40
And do we really understand the true cost of AI?
34:45
And when we do understand it, yes, the genie is out the
34:48
bottle, as you, as you say, are the cats out the bag.
34:50
But you know, so maybe there's no going back.
34:53
But I suppose that it just interesting from a business case
34:56
perspective, because I suppose you can, you know, if you're
34:58
using a I to improve healthcare, advances in healthcare, finding
35:02
new, you know, cures for cancer and so on, there's clearly a
35:05
business case there. If I'm using a I because I want
35:08
to, it's a writer bedtime story for my 5 year old.
35:12
Is that worth the cost? And and and and.
35:14
I'm using two quite extreme examples there, but you see the
35:16
point I'm making. No, I do I, but I honestly do
35:19
see as liberation, not regulation.
35:21
Interesting. And back in the health industry,
35:23
the doctors are finding by having a, I helped them write up
35:26
their notes, they get 66 zero percent more time with the
35:31
patient. And that's what really sold it
35:34
to me, because what you want is a patient.
35:36
You want that doctor with you? Well, it's true.
35:38
I mean, I, I remember reading some research which said that
35:40
the, the the process of talking to the doctor before the
35:44
doctor's even said anything already helps the patient to
35:47
feel better because they're in the room having that
35:49
conversation. And I don't know about you, but
35:51
I can't get into my doctor's to have a conversation at the
35:54
moment. It's always a phone call.
35:55
But maybe I'm in the wrong part of the country, I don't know.
35:59
OK. If on any final thoughts on AI
36:01
before we move on? There's so many people still
36:04
pushing against it, it's unbelievable.
36:06
And I really do think that you either AI or you die.
36:12
Ohh. Well, a very clear, very clear
36:13
statement from you there. OK.
36:15
So I think we're kind of, we've asked all the things I wanted to
36:18
ask. I think we're kind of towards
36:19
our closing thoughts. So what I'm going to do is I'm
36:21
going to ask each of you, Sue and then Vaughn to share your
36:25
closing thoughts. And that could be kind of your
36:29
general thoughts about the profession and where we are or,
36:32
or anything that's really jumped out of you about our
36:34
conversation today. So Sue.
36:37
Thank you, Adam. To me, it's so exciting to be in
36:40
a profession that's growing and thriving.
36:43
That is the place to be and I defy anyone not to say that
36:47
because if you're in something that's dying or decaying, it's
36:50
not a good place to be. So that's where we are.
36:53
We have agility second to none and we are now renowned not only
36:57
across the UK but across the globe and that is just such an
37:01
exciting place to be. Their inspirational thoughts
37:05
from you there as always, Sue and Ivonne.
37:08
Well, I am really excited to be taking over from.
37:12
The guardianship of. Sue because she's left us all in
37:16
a good place and made my my start the start of my.
37:19
Journey very easy, so thank you very much for that.
37:25
I'm just looking forward to working and supporting and doing
37:30
whatever I can, not only to learn because even during this
37:33
conversation I've learned so much.
37:35
So thank you both for that. But I would really like to see
37:40
the APM as the project management equivalent of the
37:46
Institute of Directors. Yes, well, I like that.
37:49
One of the one of my things I said, I think I might even said
37:52
it in my interview for the CEO job.
37:55
I said for me, wouldn't it be great if we, if, if everybody
37:59
would have they thought about delivering the project, they
38:01
immediately thought about APM. So think project, think APM,
38:05
absolutely. I don't know, maybe it's
38:07
something in that, right. Well, our time is unfortunately
38:10
nearly up for today, but I do want to just extend a huge thank
38:13
you to both Sue and Yvonne for joining me today and to all of
38:18
those listeners out there. And before we go, I'd also like
38:21
to invite those listeners to say that if you do have any
38:24
questions off the back of today's discussion, then please
38:27
reach out to us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
38:32
We'd be very happy to continue the conversation with you, and
38:37
we'll be back in a couple of weeks with another new episode
38:40
of the APM podcast. But for now, goodbye and thank
38:43
you for listening.