Latest / Loud & Lifted / Workplace Bias After the Glass Ceiling: Walking on Broken Glass with Shannon Nutter

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Workplace Bias After the Glass Ceiling: Walking on Broken Glass with Shannon Nutter · Loud & Lifted

0:00
We've been told for years that if women work
0:01
hard, speak up, and lean in, we can break through
0:04
the glass ceiling. But what happens after we
0:07
break through and realize the floor beneath us
0:10
is now covered in glass? Today, I'm talking with
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Shannon Nutter, a longtime financial services
0:16
executive, board member, and co -author of Walking
0:19
on Broken Glass, navigating the aftermath of
0:22
the glass ceiling. Shannon has spent decades
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working in male -dominated industries and holding
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senior leadership roles. She has experienced
0:30
firsthand what can happen when a successful woman's
0:33
competence, influence, or leadership suddenly
0:36
becomes a threat, and how quickly the story around
0:39
her can change. We talk about what workplace
0:42
bias actually looks like, why even highly accomplished
0:45
women can find themselves questioning their own
0:47
experiences, and how to recognize when the problem
0:49
isn't your performance. It's the system around
0:52
you. But this isn't just a conversation about
0:55
everything that's wrong. Shannon shares some
0:57
practical ways women can protect themselves,
1:00
build political capital, strengthen their networks,
1:03
and support one another when things start to
1:05
go sideways. Let's get into it. Welcome to Loud
1:09
and Lifted, Shannon. Thank you so much for being
1:11
here. Oh, thanks so much for having me, Betsy.
1:14
So I'm really excited for this conversation because
1:17
I'm sure all of us heard about the glass ceiling,
1:19
right? And we talk about trying to break that
1:21
glass ceiling and what we can do about it. And
1:23
heck, we've even had podcasts where we've talked
1:25
about glass walls, which has been super interesting.
1:27
But today we're taking a little bit of a different
1:29
approach to this. And we're talking about walking
1:32
on broken glass. So let's start Shannon with
1:36
you. And this is an amazing book that you and
1:38
your partner wrote. How did this even come about?
1:41
Obviously, you were breaking glass ceiling. So
1:43
what happened after that occurred? Well, first,
1:49
thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have
1:51
this conversation with you. I will say that I'm
1:55
reformed corporate America. I'm being reformed.
1:59
But I did leave corporate America at at the end
2:01
of 2023, had a very successful career spanning
2:05
multiple industries. And I had spent three years
2:09
building a business in Australia. And I was pretty
2:12
burned out, as you might imagine, from that experience.
2:15
And so in 2024, I really sort of stepped back.
2:21
I was painting my house, redecorating a little
2:24
bit, visiting friends and family. And I happened
2:27
to meet Julia Carrion. And she was a Wall Street
2:31
exec. So we shared a real history in financial
2:34
services. We started connecting on LinkedIn and
2:39
just really appreciated each other's perspectives.
2:42
We scheduled a call as sometimes you do with
2:45
strangers on LinkedIn. And we found that we really
2:50
shared a very similar viewpoint. And we both
2:53
had this idea of writing a book of how can we
2:56
take our experiences and our knowledge about
3:01
what it's like to be a successful woman in corporate
3:05
America. And more than just mentoring people
3:09
one -on -one, really share some of that experience
3:13
more broadly. And so we thought, hey, let's try
3:15
to write a book together, which writing any book
3:18
is a big endeavor, writing it with a stranger,
3:21
an even bigger endeavor, but it ended up. That
3:24
we had a very similar perspective and we had
3:28
a very similar voice as we began writing, which
3:31
was critical. I think one funny thing is that
3:35
we both believed that a big chunk of the book
3:37
was going to be about strategy and execution.
3:40
How to drive that in a big company. We did write
3:44
three chapters on that. then we threw them away.
3:50
They are not in the book anymore because what
3:54
we discovered was that we really, we wanted to
3:56
write a book about women in the workplace and
4:00
all of the things that happened to women, the
4:03
ways that we are minimized, the ways that we
4:07
are still held back, even though it's 2026. Right.
4:11
And more than that, how do we as women And allies,
4:16
I will say. Sure. Recognize those things in the
4:19
workplace. Identify them so that we can then
4:25
take action to help ourselves and to help each
4:29
other. Well, and I love that. And I don't want
4:32
to say you minimize, but I mean, you and Julia
4:33
both have. very impressive resumes, like great
4:36
executive leadership positions in very large
4:39
companies. So, I mean, people will look at your
4:41
career and be like, wow, you were so successful.
4:43
You were able to shatter the glass ceiling, right?
4:46
Like all of those pieces. But yet that was not
4:49
some like simple journey that you're like, oh,
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hey, I got to where I wanted to be. check the
4:54
box, you know, like let's, let's move on. So
4:56
I love that you're taking that experience that
4:59
both of you had. And, and it's, it's funny, I
5:02
was saying to you before we started, like, this
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isn't just a bitch fest, right? Like we know
5:07
the data, like the data is not great, right?
5:09
Like you could, there's so many things you can
5:11
read with, with the stats and, and we need to
5:13
be aware of that for sure. There's an education
5:15
piece of that. But what I love about this book,
5:17
is that you took all that, and then you're like,
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OK, what do we do with this? How do we take action?
5:22
What's in our control? And how to move forward
5:24
with that and to help other women. That's, of
5:27
course, the best part and dear to my heart of
5:29
supporting other women. So thank you for having
5:32
that approach for that. Oh, thanks. You know,
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it's interesting because I do think, I mean,
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you were a CEO, right? And so a lot of people
5:40
could look at you and say, oh, glass ceiling,
5:43
tick. Women have reached the top in so many fields.
5:48
And I don't know about you, but certainly for
5:51
Julia and I, even though we were very successful,
5:54
we would look around and be like, when is it
5:56
going to get easier? When is it going to be a
5:59
cakewalk? When are we suddenly going to get treated
6:01
with the same kind of respect we see some of
6:03
our peers being treated with? And it never came.
6:07
And hence the title that we were like, sure,
6:10
there have been breaks through the glass ceiling,
6:13
but guess what? Now we got broken glass everywhere.
6:17
And the path isn't clear. The path isn't clear
6:20
for any of us. And I think it's easy as a younger
6:25
woman, I think, to look up at more senior women
6:27
and say, oh, when only I get there, then it'll
6:31
be easy. Then I won't deal with any of this bias
6:34
or double standards. But I don't know about you.
6:37
I think the reality is you continue to deal with
6:39
it regardless. Absolutely. And you're so right.
6:42
And I remember thinking the first couple of times
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I went to events and, you know, if it was like
6:46
an executive session or something, I look around
6:48
the room and it's a bunch of, you know, older
6:50
white men, right? And you're like, okay, I'm
6:52
one of these things are not like the other, like
6:54
just from a number standpoint, there weren't
6:56
many of us. So then it was like, when I could
6:58
find or talk to other women, nobody was talking
7:01
about this. Like nobody mentioned, it was kind
7:04
of like what you've gotten here. It's fine, everything's
7:06
okay and fair. It's not like, oh, congrats, you're
7:10
here. Now let's talk about the next game plan.
7:12
So as women are getting to that point in their
7:15
career, like what... What does happen, and how
7:17
do we walk on broken glass? How do we approach
7:20
this, essentially, for someone who's listening
7:22
to this? It's interesting, because I think that
7:28
a lot of us, at least my experience has been
7:32
more women sort of want to put their heads down,
7:36
buckle down, and just do great work. I just want
7:40
to be here, and I just want to do great work.
7:45
There's this expectation that when we do that
7:50
and when the outcomes do inevitably come, because
7:52
we've done great work, that we will be rewarded
7:56
fair and square. Right. And it just doesn't always
8:02
happen that way. I mean, I think we say in the
8:04
book meritocracy is a myth. And I really believe
8:08
that because it, we all know we can all cite
8:11
probably at every organization we've ever been
8:13
in the people, maybe even ourselves included,
8:18
that have been high performing, delivered consistently,
8:22
and yet there would be other people who really
8:24
didn't, who moved up faster or further than we
8:28
did or other people that we were witnessing.
8:31
Absolutely. And I think one of the themes of
8:34
this is like performance isn't always protection,
8:37
right? And I think early in your career, you
8:39
think the performance is going to get you to
8:40
that next level and you're missing the visibility,
8:43
you're missing the other pieces. And it's like,
8:44
okay, well, now you have the visibility. Sure.
8:46
Say you're at a higher level role, but your performance
8:49
or even your team's performance at that standpoint,
8:51
isn't going to protect you from, you know, the
8:54
other things that are going on behind the scenes.
8:57
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And I think
8:59
probably early in your career, your very first
9:02
role or your first couple of roles, your performance
9:05
does matter significantly. And it's not to say
9:07
that it doesn't matter throughout your career.
9:10
But we can look at so much data. There is just
9:13
reams of data out there for people who are paying
9:16
attention that you look at venture, you look
9:20
at founders. Female founders get a higher ROI.
9:25
for the investment dollars that they put into
9:28
their organizations. And yet, they get a pittance
9:32
of the VC funding that male startups get. You
9:37
look at organizations that have more women in
9:39
key roles. They outperform from a financial perspective
9:43
companies that don't. Why aren't more companies
9:47
putting more women in key leadership roles? You
9:51
can just look at data point after data point,
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women that build more inclusive cultures, generate
9:56
more innovation because they listen to more members
9:59
of their team. One would think, one would think,
10:04
that if you have leaders in organizations who
10:07
say, I'm data -based, I make data -driven decisions,
10:10
and I think we've probably all heard that, that
10:12
they would be looking at some of this data and
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saying, oh my goodness, I need. to be capturing
10:18
this type of talent and putting it in my organization.
10:21
I need to be funding this type of talent. And
10:25
yet it doesn't happen. And that's a great example
10:27
of where performance is not enough. It's just
10:31
not enough. And we have a story in the book,
10:36
I don't know if you remember when you read it,
10:38
about the orchestra and how in... Prior to the
10:44
1970s, orchestras were highly male -dominated.
10:49
And there was sort of this question of like,
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well, do men have innately more musical talent
10:54
than women? Like, what is happening here? And
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as legend has it, in 1952, the Boston Symphony
11:04
implemented blind auditions. and they put up
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a screen on the stage so that the judges couldn't
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see the people that were performing the music.
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And what they found was that they were still
11:17
getting predominantly male selections for the
11:21
orchestra. And so they asked each of the performers
11:25
to take off their shoes. And what they found
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when they took off their shoes and the judges
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couldn't hear the difference between a men's
11:34
dress shoe and a high heel, clicking across the
11:38
stage that suddenly the selections became gender
11:43
neutral. So crazy. And it is such a crazy example.
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I love that example because I think it highlights
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how subconscious so much of our bias is that
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I am sure those judges would say, oh, no, I'm
11:59
not biased. I don't prefer men over women. And
12:02
yet, even just hearing somebody's high heels
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made them less likely to pick them. So I think
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it's a great example of where there's so many
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biases. We all have them, by the way, that are
12:16
in our subconscious that you just cannot believe
12:20
that your performance alone is going to do it
12:23
for you. Right, right. Well, and you know, you
12:25
talk about how the system was built. by men for
12:28
men. And at the time, I don't think it was malicious,
12:30
right? Like it's when women weren't in the workplace,
12:33
you know, they were at home, raising kids, doing
12:34
whatever. So, and even I had never heard this,
12:37
like the nine to five timeframe of working was
12:40
like built on men's testosterone levels. And
12:43
I was like, what? I have never heard of this.
12:46
Optimized productivity for men, right? Wild,
12:50
so wild. So, you know, you understand how it
12:52
started, right? Like you understand, but then
12:54
it's like, okay, well now we're years and decades
12:58
past that. And to your point, there's that bias.
13:00
So if someone who's listening to this is in any
13:03
type of leadership, owns a company, how do you
13:06
pay attention to that? That again, the orchestra
13:09
example is perfect, right? Because they didn't
13:12
necessarily try, but yes, we all have bias, of
13:14
course. So how do we as the leaders or owners
13:17
of companies be aware of that? I mean, I think
13:22
first, it's acknowledging that there might be
13:25
an issue. Maybe my company has an issue, and
13:29
I'm just not even aware of it. I mean, you can't
13:31
change what you're not aware of. Sure. And so
13:35
I think it starts with looking at the data. What
13:38
does your management team look like? What does
13:40
your board look like? What do opportunities in
13:42
your organization look like? Simple things. Well,
13:45
I mean, here's an example of where AI could be
13:49
a really interesting tool, right? women's personalities
13:54
are discussed significantly more in their annual
13:57
review than men's. I think the stat is like 78
14:00
% of women's reviews have references to their
14:03
personality versus just like 2 % of men's. Where
14:07
can AI be scanning for that across an organization
14:10
to say, actually, leaders, you're not commenting
14:13
on their their work style or their work output
14:17
or their competencies. You're talking about their
14:19
personalities. Okay, get rid of that. But every
14:22
leader can look at their team and say, do I have
14:25
an evenly distributed team? And if I don't, why
14:28
not? Do I innately think that, you know, men
14:32
are more talented or whoever, right? What is
14:35
your, what does your mentor pool look like? Who
14:37
are you advocating for? Do you automatically
14:40
think that a working mother is going to be less
14:43
likely to take a a job that requires a move than
14:47
a man, right? I mean, all of these things are
14:50
assumptions. We have a whole host of self -assessment
14:54
questions in the book that I think are really
14:57
valuable to sit down and just say, you know,
15:00
maybe, just maybe I'll have a little bit of bias.
15:03
Right. And to your point, everybody has some
15:05
form of bias, right? Like it's just human nature,
15:08
but it's, it's being aware of that and kind of
15:10
pulling it back in. And I think about too, when
15:12
you were saying about the personality piece,
15:14
you know, you talk about the Goldilocks, uh,
15:17
you know, situation where syndrome, you know,
15:19
you're always too much or too little. And I think
15:21
about that, how, how often, especially you hear
15:24
women talk about other women and, and it's, oh,
15:26
she's too abrasive. Oh, she's too aggressive.
15:28
Oh, she's too opinionated. Like, but then on
15:31
the other, you know, the flip side of that. So
15:32
it's like, It's even catching yourself in those
15:34
kinds of conversations to your peers. I don't
15:37
care if you're the boss or whoever, but that
15:39
all starts to impact how people are perceiving
15:42
someone when you have someone saying, oh, she's
15:44
abrasive, she's aggressive. But it is so detrimental.
15:50
I think women can be other women's worst enemies
15:52
sometimes. we have a situation in society where
15:57
if there's a strong woman, we tend to pick her
16:00
apart in terms of her personality or clothing
16:02
or looks, whatever that might be. And one of
16:05
the issues we discuss in the book related to
16:08
that is, is this Goldilocks syndrome of that?
16:11
You never hear a woman just described as being
16:13
strong. Oh, she's strategic. Oh, she's really
16:17
quick with the numbers. Oh, she's really empathetic.
16:21
There's always a but. There's always a but, dot,
16:23
dot, dot. And when Julia and I were writing that,
16:28
we really sat back and we asked ourselves, when
16:31
was the last time you heard a woman just described
16:36
in terms of her strengths? As in like, oh, Betsy,
16:40
we should really think about her for that big
16:43
project because she is strategic and she is decisive
16:47
and that helps her teams execute on time and
16:51
on schedule. Right. Period. That's in a sentence.
16:56
Just period. And we honestly could not think
17:01
of a time. And that was unbelievably sad to us.
17:05
We were like, there's always a but. There's always
17:07
a, but she rubs a few people the wrong way. But
17:11
sometimes her family situation gets, whatever
17:14
it is. It's like men of course have all of those
17:17
same buts. Of course. But they don't necessarily
17:19
get talked about. Well, and when you were saying
17:21
that, you know, it makes me think of that I've
17:22
heard so many times through my career is it's
17:25
a woman could have all those positive traits,
17:26
but she needs to work on her executive presence,
17:29
which I hate that because like, again, I know
17:31
that's not used with men, but so much more. I've
17:34
heard it used for men because it has something
17:35
to do with how she's showing up or her appearance
17:37
or something, right? Like, and you can't be too
17:40
pretty, but you better not have wrinkles, but
17:42
you better not like, you know, like it's all
17:43
those things where it's like, yeah. Okay, what
17:45
am I supposed to do? Who am I supposed to be?
17:47
So that plays into all of it. And I think that
17:50
plays into the politics piece too. Which the
17:53
other thing that I love that you talked about
17:55
was the fact that there's always two org charts,
17:57
right? Like that there's the official one and
17:59
then there's the invisible one. So what does
18:02
that invisible chart look like and what do we
18:04
do about that? You know, it's interesting because
18:06
I think along with the just put your head down,
18:10
get work done. do a great job, at least in my
18:13
experience, more women that I've known have sort
18:16
of said, look, I know there's politics, but I
18:20
really don't want to deal with that. I just want
18:22
to come in and do my work. And I would say that
18:26
Julia and I agree that we've been like that for
18:29
much of our careers. And then there came a point
18:32
where we said, well, Actually, you know, we have
18:36
to pay attention to this because it literally
18:38
is just an aspect of your company. It is one
18:43
of the ways your company gets things done. And
18:46
so you have to pay attention to it. And if you
18:48
think of it that way, you know, it's a little
18:51
easier maybe to get your head around to say,
18:53
hey, I just have to pay attention to how work
18:55
actually gets done at my company. And we cite
18:59
the work of Professor Kathleen Reardon. from
19:03
USC in the book. And she has this simple four
19:06
-part model of how politicized is your company.
19:12
And it goes from minimally and moderately politicized
19:17
to highly and pathologically politicized. And
19:21
pathologically, you can imagine, are these highly,
19:24
highly toxic environments. But if you think of
19:27
the minimally and moderately politicized. These
19:30
are companies where there's a lot of trust, there's
19:32
a lot of teamwork, there's clear rules for how
19:35
to get things done, and people generally abide
19:38
by those rules. And if there's conflict, conflict
19:41
gets sorted out pretty easily. But in these more
19:45
highly and pathologically politicized environments,
19:49
which I'd venture to say probably includes a
19:51
lot of the bigger companies, or at least divisions
19:54
or teams within some of those companies, you
19:57
get a lot of in and out groups. You get a lot
20:01
of, OK, those are the rules, but nobody really
20:04
follows the rules. Here's how you actually work
20:06
around all of those things. And there tends to
20:09
be a lot of conflict, and it's just not resolved.
20:12
in sort of clear, understandable ways. And so
20:16
I think in any of those environments, but particularly
20:19
the more politicized, right? It's about understanding
20:24
within your organization, right? Who are the
20:27
influencers? How do decisions actually get made?
20:30
How do people actually get onto projects or get
20:33
given promotions, right? And who connects with
20:36
who socially? It's like... Learn what the unspoken
20:40
things are within your organization, not so that
20:45
you can play that game better necessarily, but
20:48
that you can be mindful of what is actually happening.
20:53
Yes, maybe you'll connect to some of those people
20:55
that are in groups. You'll find out whether or
20:57
not any of your mentors or sponsors are highly
20:59
connected within the organization, but at least
21:02
so that you're not surprised. When things do
21:06
happen within the company because I think that's
21:08
what happens, right? You're like, how did that
21:09
person get promoted? Get this big, you know job
21:13
whatever it is and And then you look around and
21:17
you go, oh, okay, they are connected to all of
21:19
these people. And this is how things actually
21:23
move in the organization, regardless of what
21:25
is said in the brochures. Right. That was not
21:30
in the HR video. And that goes back to relationships,
21:34
right? We talk a lot about the importance of
21:37
networking and building your circle and sponsors
21:38
and mentors and all that stuff. is 100 % important,
21:42
but the politics kind of plays into it because
21:44
you also don't want to be aligned with the wrong
21:46
person, which is crazy and sometimes sad, but
21:49
that's the reality. I mean, I had that happen
21:51
to me in my past where I was like, what do I
21:53
need to do to be able to get to the next level?
21:55
And they were like, a very high level executive
21:58
said to me, oh, well, the problem is that you're
22:00
aligned with somebody who wasn't even there anymore,
22:02
like another executive. And it was sort of like,
22:04
okay, well. a little too late. But I mean, there
22:07
was a political piece of that where it was like,
22:08
okay, well, at least I know where I stand now.
22:10
And I know that I can't do anything about that
22:12
alignment. She's gone. But here I am getting,
22:14
you know, dinged for an alignment of because
22:17
she wasn't politically correct anymore, essentially.
22:21
So, you know, it really ties into your relationships
22:23
from, again, it's not being strategic. It's being
22:26
strategic. I don't want to say you're using people
22:27
or manipulating the situation, but it's just
22:30
part of the corporate world, unfortunately. We
22:34
all want to create a great network within our
22:36
organizations. We all want to build political
22:38
capital in terms of our own brand. Who do we
22:42
stand for? What do we stand for? When people
22:45
say our name, what do they know us for? All of
22:47
those things are political things to a certain
22:49
extent. But like you said, sometimes you can
22:51
be aligned to a mentor or an advocate, and guess
22:54
what? Maybe they were in the in -group at one
22:57
point within your organization, but now they're
22:59
not anymore. And in your mind, you're still like,
23:02
oh, this person is more senior to me. Therefore,
23:04
they must be helpful. They must be influential.
23:07
And you haven't really read the tea leaves to
23:10
say, actually, they're sort of on the outs. And
23:13
they're not as helpful to you as they once were.
23:16
And so you have to be mindful of that before
23:19
you've completely hitched your wagon to their
23:21
wagon. Right. They drive off the cliff. Yes.
23:25
It's so true. Then you're like, why am I not
23:28
getting this promotion or this project? Then
23:30
it's like, you can work an extra 10 hours a week.
23:33
Again, going back to the performance, that's
23:35
not going to get you where you want to go. I
23:38
think knowing not to beat your head against the
23:39
wall. Certain things, right? Rather than being
23:42
frustrated. Right. Yeah, you just have to understand
23:44
that. So one of the key points in your book is
23:47
about the takedown. So let's talk about the takedown.
23:50
Because reading that chapter, I was like twitching
23:53
the whole time. Because I've seen it happen to
23:55
others. I've had it happen. So what is a takedown?
23:59
Let's start there. So we created or named this
24:04
thing, the takedown, because Julia and I, when
24:07
we were writing the book, we we knew 10 women
24:11
between us who were getting pushed out of their
24:13
organizations, really high performers. And we
24:16
were like, what is this? This seems like there's
24:20
this deliberate takedown of really talented people.
24:25
And so I wrote a LinkedIn post about it in the
24:29
hopes that some women would reach out and tell
24:31
us their stories because we didn't want just
24:33
our small circle of stories. That post went viral
24:38
in early 2025 and I had hundreds of women, mostly
24:45
women, couple men, who reached out to say, this
24:49
is happening to me, this has happened to me,
24:52
and let me tell you my story. And that's why
24:55
we ended up writing an entire chapter on it.
24:58
So did all these interviews, collected all this
25:01
data, and it was really astounding. Was very
25:07
clear once we took a look at the data that that
25:09
there there is a playbook There is a playbook.
25:13
There is a type of person that gets taken down
25:15
We were interviewing women, but the men I interviewed
25:20
Had exactly the same criteria right that they
25:23
tend to be Really honest candid people. They're
25:27
bold. They're willing to challenge the status
25:29
quo. They're willing to speak truth to power
25:32
They're not a yes, man They are known for respectful
25:36
debate. They have high integrity, and they have
25:40
a history of high performance. And it was so
25:44
fascinating that literally by the time I was
25:46
getting to interview number 100, I was like,
25:50
oh, so describe yourself to me, right? What type
25:53
of person are you? What are you known for at
25:55
work? And I just had my little chocolate. You
25:57
already started writing. I could tick the box.
25:59
I knew exactly what they were going to say. And
26:01
it was to a T. Every single person described
26:05
themselves with some of those characteristics.
26:08
And these are the kinds of things that I would
26:12
venture every company has on their recruiting
26:16
list. Like, oh, we value people who challenge
26:22
the status quo and keep driving us towards innovation
26:25
and are willing to debate. And obviously, high
26:29
integrity, high ethics. And yet. These are the
26:33
people that ultimately threaten somebody in power
26:38
or challenge the status quo just a little bit
26:41
too much. And we were able to identify through
26:47
this as well, you know, what are some of the,
26:50
I'll say trigger points for organizations or
26:54
for people to watch out for. where a takedown
26:57
might occur and it, you know, it's things like
27:00
a reorganization. Your company has a merger acquisition.
27:04
Um, you get a new boss, you know, then there's
27:08
sort of the aspects I just spoke about, like
27:10
you've challenged somebody in power and you've
27:14
challenged the status quo or sometimes it's a
27:17
performance sort of threat. You know, you've
27:20
really outperformed. Maybe you questioned your
27:24
compensation or some other aspect of the company,
27:28
but there were three big buckets of moments where
27:33
it's like, oh, if any of these things happened,
27:35
and now you start to see these signs and symptoms
27:38
that we talk about. Well, and going back to the
27:43
politics piece of it, I've seen it happen where
27:45
there was a change in power, right? At the executive
27:48
level and another executive maybe wasn't aligned
27:51
with that person when they were peers. And now
27:53
that person is the big boss. And suddenly it's
27:56
like, oh, well, I didn't like you when I was
27:58
here. Now I really am going to take this opportunity
28:00
to, you know. redo the leadership team. So in
28:04
that standpoint, too, where everybody's going
28:06
along, then there's a change in power or leadership
28:09
at the top. And it just moves everything around.
28:13
Yeah. And it's, you know, what's unfortunate,
28:16
too, is that, you know, from the interviews,
28:19
most people said that it occurred over the course
28:22
of about 12 to 24 months, you know, that that
28:25
was the range of time we're now looking back.
28:28
They're like, I think I was sort of being positioned
28:31
for this over the course of like a year or more.
28:35
But then often it took people about six months
28:38
to recognize that it was happening because just
28:42
something felt off, something felt wrong. But
28:45
as we've already discussed, they were a bit like,
28:48
you know what? I'm just going to try to fix that.
28:50
It's probably a communication problem. Let me
28:52
communicate better. Oh, maybe it's this issue.
28:55
Let me just try to fix that. But of course, these
28:57
aren't fixable issues, right? I mean, maybe you
29:01
can, if your company's big enough, maybe you
29:03
can pick up and move and go to another team and
29:06
problem resolved. But if you're staying within
29:09
the group that you're in, it's probably not going
29:14
to change. It's certainly not related to your
29:16
performance because as we already noted, you're
29:18
an eye performer. Yeah. So are there any red
29:21
flags to be looking for if you're like, oh, I
29:25
feel like maybe this sounds familiar. What are
29:27
those sort of maybe flags that many of us miss
29:29
when we're in it? Yeah. I mean, I think we've
29:32
got two pages worth of signs and symptoms. But
29:36
it could be things like canceled one -on -ones
29:39
or canceled skip levels, being excluded from
29:42
meetings that you used to be a part of or decisions
29:45
that you used to have some level of input to.
29:48
constantly changing job descriptions or KPIs
29:51
or your lines of reporting. Maybe you've done
29:55
something amazing and you're not getting recognized
29:57
for it or you're not getting a bonus for it,
29:59
being micromanaged, certainly an unexpected pip
30:02
after years of great performance. I would say
30:06
if you get the sense that you're being gaslit,
30:09
I think one of the things, and I don't know if
30:12
it's more true for women. I certainly know it
30:14
is true for women we've spoken to is that There's
30:19
something that happens that your spidey senses
30:21
are a tingling. And they're like, that just doesn't
30:26
quite feel right. And yet most of us are so busy
30:31
that we just sort of push it away and we try
30:35
to ignore it. I'm sure that can't be anything.
30:37
Let me just go on and keep working. And then
30:40
in retrospect, it turns out that those, that
30:43
intuition. Oh yeah. That like, this just isn't
30:46
kosher was right. Yeah. And I can think of that
30:50
in my own journey when I was like, hmm, I wasn't
30:53
asked to speak at this and I normally am because
30:55
it's a public whatever facing with investors.
30:59
And I just remember some of those times where
31:01
like, okay, maybe I'm just being paranoid. Maybe
31:03
I'm being sensitive. But the reality is most
31:05
of the time you're not being paranoid. You're
31:06
not being sensitive. There's a reason for it.
31:08
And it's sort of like stringing it all together,
31:10
right? Like something might happen. It might
31:12
just be one thing and it's just, it's completely
31:14
not. a bigger issue, but it's sort of like when
31:17
these little things start stringing together,
31:19
it's like a pattern, I guess, is, you know, the
31:21
word that you're looking for is a pattern of
31:23
like, wait a minute, these things are starting
31:25
to connect now. In hindsight, I realize that
31:27
this is not, you know, where I want this to be
31:30
headed. So I think it's hard when you're in it,
31:32
but it is sometimes it's, I think, listening
31:35
to your gut and just being aware and realizing
31:37
maybe you aren't paranoid, right? Like, that
31:40
may be the case. Well, and it's not one thing,
31:45
right? Yes. One canceled one -on -one. Right.
31:48
Don't be that paranoid. It doesn't mean that
31:50
your job is in jeopardy. But it's like you said,
31:56
when these things start to get strung together
31:59
and And you got a perfect example, like, gosh,
32:02
usually I'm asked to speak at this thing. That
32:05
seems strange. Why wasn't I asked to speak? Nobody
32:07
mentioned it to me. You know, that all of a sudden
32:10
you're going, OK, wait a minute. Now, was there
32:12
anything else? Oh, yeah, actually there were
32:14
these other couple things too. Yep. No, it all
32:17
starts to kind of tie together. So yeah, it's
32:19
always good. So I don't like to be too doom and
32:23
gloom. The takedown does make me, like I said,
32:25
it makes me twitch. But as someone's listening
32:29
to this, your whole goal, your and Julia's goal
32:32
is this, is to provide women with the tools and
32:36
resources essentially to band together, I guess,
32:40
work together to move forward. So what do we
32:44
do? When somebody reads this book, which I strongly
32:46
encourage, what do you want them to take? And
32:49
I love that you have takeaways and the recaps
32:51
in each chapter, but what do you want the readers
32:53
and women essentially to do with this book? I
32:57
mean, I think, one, we want them to recognize
32:59
where these biases and double standards take
33:05
place in their workplaces. Because I think we've
33:09
all gotten so used to them that we just, I mean,
33:13
we might roll our eyes at each other, but we
33:16
don't necessarily take action. And a good example
33:20
is a woman's idea gets attributed to somebody
33:23
else during the course of a meeting. says the
33:27
same thing five minutes later, and everybody's
33:29
like, oh, George, amazing idea. And you all look
33:33
at each other like, I'm pretty sure I said that
33:36
five minutes earlier. So things like that, instead
33:40
of just being frustrated by it, where do each
33:44
of us need to have a go -to phrase? We just know,
33:48
we're comfortable with, we've practiced in our
33:51
car or wherever we want to practice things to
33:53
say, oh, George, thanks for chiming in. Betsy's
33:56
idea, I'm glad it's getting traction. But maybe
34:00
she can add on a few thoughts of what she was
34:03
trying to say earlier. Whatever that is, have
34:07
some of those things at the ready. So recognize
34:10
some of these things we talk about in the book.
34:12
have some of these little phrases ready where
34:17
you feel comfortable. They sound like you. You
34:20
don't feel like you're attacking anybody. You're
34:21
just sort of comfortably putting some of these
34:23
things out. I think there's also the document
34:27
your achievements. That sounds easy. And I think
34:31
how many of us at the end of the year have gone,
34:34
oh, shoot, I got to document what I did this
34:36
year. And let me go find the data that demonstrates
34:40
I did X, Y, Z. I think we should all be better
34:44
about having that at the ready, asking clients
34:47
or peers to talk about what a great job we did
34:51
on a project, CC our boss, file that stuff away
34:58
so that you've got it at any singular moment.
35:04
Certainly keeping a strong network, not just
35:07
inside the company, which I think many of us
35:09
do, but outside the company as well. I think
35:12
a lot of people lose their sort of professional
35:16
voice in many companies, right? They might promote
35:21
what the company wants everyone to promote, and
35:24
that's about it. They stop sort of having their
35:26
own opinion, which can be a problem if you actually
35:30
ever are let go that now you don't really have
35:33
this sort of external network, this more wide
35:35
ranging network that could help you get a job
35:37
or speaking engagements or consulting or whatever
35:40
you end up. you know, doing. And I'd say pay
35:43
attention to your instincts, right? If something
35:46
starts to feel wrong, start to document that
35:48
and keep the receipts because that might help
35:51
you down the pike as well if your company does
35:55
let you go and you want to reach out to a lawyer
35:58
or you're in a situation where you have to negotiate
36:01
severance, right? You want the data. Yeah, absolutely.
36:06
And you know, the whole reason why I started
36:08
this podcast and I've said this on a couple different
36:09
episodes is because, you know, we get very hung
36:12
up on the boys club and the boys club ties into
36:15
all this, right? They're part of it. They're
36:17
the driver of it. Are we ever going to break
36:20
through the boys club? I don't know. And half
36:21
the time, I don't even, all boys clubs aren't
36:23
malicious necessarily or intentional, but you
36:26
know, it's how do we build that girls community
36:29
or girls club, whatever you want to call it,
36:31
where we're supporting each other and having
36:33
those voices. And, and as we get into those leadership
36:35
level roles to bring other women along, you know,
36:38
I think that's the piece, like that's what we
36:40
can control, right? We're never going to control
36:41
the men, the boys club, it's going to happen.
36:43
And sometimes it's not bad, right? But we have
36:46
to. control what we can control and influence
36:49
where we can and that's not gonna be alone. It's
36:52
with people like you and Julia with your voices
36:54
and bringing light to those conversations and
36:57
making it normal to talk about, right? Like I
36:59
think especially the takedown, it makes people
37:01
uncomfortable and people don't typically, well,
37:03
you had hundreds of women reach out, but people
37:05
typically aren't talking about that with their
37:07
little circle of friends or we're in a professional
37:09
setting, so let's normalize this, let's talk
37:12
about it. And again, maybe some behavior is not
37:15
malicious. A lot of it is. But some of it may
37:18
be because of that bias. So how do we just acknowledge
37:21
it? And for people who can change or will change,
37:24
then you're giving them that space and that opportunity.
37:26
So I just appreciate that from the two of you
37:29
and from this book for sure. Yeah, I think we're
37:32
big proponents of women helping other women.
37:35
We certainly do not think all men are bad. There
37:38
are so many great, both Julie and I have had
37:40
amazing male mentors and advocates over the years.
37:45
And we also recognize, which we say in the book,
37:48
you won't love every woman you ever meet. Right.
37:51
Correct. And you won't necessarily think they
37:54
are the bee's knees, right? That's fine. You
37:57
don't have to. And you don't like every man you
37:59
meet either. But at least don't throw more hurdles
38:04
in her path, right? She is facing the same hurdles
38:08
you're facing. And so just don't make it harder
38:11
for her. If a woman needs to pass you, give her
38:14
a passing lane. And I think that's at least a
38:17
starting point, right? Don't attack other women.
38:20
Don't throw more hurdles in their path. And then
38:24
how do we really collaborate instead of competing
38:28
to say, well, gosh, Betsy, we're going to go
38:32
into the same meeting later. I'm going to raise
38:34
an idea. And I feel a little vulnerable doing
38:39
that. Would you back me up during the meeting?
38:42
with that idea, assuming you like the idea, assuming
38:45
you're willing to back me up, that we just talk
38:48
about that in advance and then we go in with
38:52
a plan for how to do that. Likewise, you're in
38:56
a meeting and there's a new project being discussed,
39:01
right? Why wouldn't you throw a woman's name
39:03
in the pot? Right. Collaboration, bonus discussions,
39:09
all of these are opportunities to be calling
39:12
out whether you see bias or double standards.
39:15
And again, I think the key is like having, knowing
39:20
what you might see because you've probably seen
39:22
it before, but also then having these little
39:25
phrases of like, oh gosh, you know, we're talking
39:27
about Betsy and George and it seems like we're
39:28
talking about very similar outcomes, but for
39:31
some reason we're talking about Betsy's personality.
39:37
Maybe we can get back to the business outcomes,
39:40
right? Again, it's just like, what are the phrases
39:45
that we could say that aren't going to make every
39:46
the room mad? Nobody's going to be on edge. Like,
39:49
oh, I'm super biased. She just said I'm biased.
39:52
Yeah, maybe don't lead with, hey, you're being
39:54
biased. You're being super biased right now,
39:56
by the way. Yeah. Maybe don't lead with that.
39:59
Maybe I save that for later. But yeah, it's to
40:02
not make someone defensive. But I love that swapping
40:04
the competition for the collaboration, because
40:06
that's the part that we're missing. That is the
40:09
key right there, is being collaborative. And
40:11
that goes back to the boys club. They're collaborative.
40:12
Right? Like they pat each other on the ass and
40:15
say good job and are supportive. Like we need
40:18
to have that collaboration. And sometimes we
40:20
have to be more intentional about it. So it's
40:23
becoming intentional and thinking about it. And
40:24
eventually it'll become natural, right? Like
40:26
you're not gonna have to give it so much thought,
40:28
but it's that initial till that kind of becomes
40:30
the routine of how you perform or how you go
40:33
about your job. It's just getting those reps
40:36
in and being intentional about it. But I love
40:38
that the collaboration over competition is. is
40:42
key. That's so good. Well, and they talk about,
40:44
you know, there's a lot of talk about the scarcity
40:46
mindset, right? When there's been one woman in
40:48
a group, you know, a leadership group that it's
40:51
like, oh, well, if I'm going to get there, I
40:53
got to take her spot. Right. So somehow I have
40:55
to beat her and compete with her and cut her
40:59
down so that I can be perceived as better versus,
41:04
well, actually, no, I want to – her being at
41:06
that table is proof that I can get to the table.
41:09
Right. And we need to pull up another chair.
41:12
And she can hopefully help make room. Now, she
41:17
might not, but let's hope that she would. And
41:20
I think that's that notion of collaboration.
41:22
We can all get there. Just because you have a
41:26
successful podcast doesn't mean that nobody else
41:27
can have a successful podcast. Right? Right.
41:30
Exactly. Exactly. No, that's so true. No, that's
41:33
awesome. So as I said, your book, I love that
41:35
it has the takeaways and the recaps of that.
41:38
So where can everyone find your book and when
41:40
is it coming out? Oh, so it may be out already
41:44
when your listeners hear this, but it comes out
41:46
on September 14th. We're super excited and you
41:49
can find it wherever you buy your books. Amazing.
41:52
It's available everywhere. That's so exciting.
41:55
Congratulations. Thanks. I will definitely link
41:56
that in the show notes, but congratulations to
41:58
you and Julia and thank you for being that positive
42:01
voice and helping women know what happens after
42:03
you break that glass ceiling. Thank you so much
42:05
for being here. Thanks so much. What I appreciate
42:08
about this conversation and Shannon's book is
42:11
that it doesn't leave us with another list of
42:13
ways women need to fix themselves. We still need
42:16
to understand the workplace dynamics happening
42:18
around us. We need to build strong relationships
42:22
before we're in crisis. Pay attention when the
42:24
story about us begins to change and document
42:27
what's happening instead of assuming our hard
42:29
work will speak for itself. Because unfortunately,
42:33
sometimes it won't. And we also need to stop
42:36
treating another woman's bad experience as something
42:38
that could never happen to us. Supporting women
42:41
cannot only be something we do when it feels
42:43
comfortable or politically safe. You can learn
42:46
more about Shannon and find Walking on Broken
42:49
Glass wherever you buy books. And if this conversation
42:52
made you think of another woman who needs to
42:54
hear it, please send it her way. Thanks for listening.
42:57
Until next time, stay loud and keep lifting.