Latest / The Epstein Chronicles / Mega Edition: Michelle Pagan And The Interview With Epstein's First Known Accuser (9/16/26)

Transcript

Mega Edition: Michelle Pagan And The Interview With Epstein's First Known Accuser (9/16/26) · The Epstein Chronicles

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode we're going to start taking
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: a look at an interview, a phone interview, that Detective
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Michelle Pagan had with one of the accusers during that
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Florida investigation. Now Michelle Pagan is one of the investigators,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: the detectives, that was on this case. And this document
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: was recently unsealed as part of the Epstein Transparency Act. Now,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: doing the questioning is Michelle Pagan, and then there's somebody
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: named Kathy Back, and then, of course, there is going
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: to be the survivor themselves. So, let's get started. MP,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: which is Michelle Pagan, ID number 8059, reference case number 05-368.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: The time now, by my watch, is approximately 6 minutes
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: past 2 p.m., On 3-15-05. UNK. Just High Ridge Family Center. MP.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Which is Michelle Pagan. Okay. The High Ridge Family Center.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Present also. Could you state your name please? Redacted. Pagan.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Spell your name please? Answer. Redacted. Pagan. And your date
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: of birth? Answer. Redacted. Pagan. And you are? Answer. Kathy Back.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Family Therapist. Pagan, could you spell your name, please? Answer
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: by Kathy Black, or Kathy Back, excuse me. K-A-T-H-Y-B-A-C-K. Pagan,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: and you're her family therapist, am I correct? Back? Yes. Pagan, okay,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: I'm here today, redacted, and I have stated briefly why
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I'm here is in reference to an incident that happened
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: to a friend of yours, or a girl that you know.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if she's a friend of yours or not,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: but by the name of Haley. Do you know what
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about? Redacted, yes. Pagan, okay. I hear your
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: voice got very low all of a sudden, so if
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: you don't mind. Redacted, oh, okay. Pagan, I'll even hold it, okay?
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Can you tell me how you know Haley? Redacted, she
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: is my ex-boyfriend's cousin. And now that we have established
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: that it's Michelle Pagan doing the questioning and Redacted doing
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: the answering, We're going to go back to the standard
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: way we do it. I'll do question and then answer.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: When I say question, that's Michelle Pagan. When I say answer,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: that will be from the redacted person that's being interviewed. Question,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: and what's your ex-boyfriend's name? Redacted, Zach Bryan. Question, is
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: that his last name, Bryan? Answer, yes. Question, what school
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: does he go to? Answer, Summit Christian School. Question, and
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: you said he's your ex-boyfriend? How long ago was that? Redacted,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know, like two months, two months and a
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: half ago. Question, how long did you go out with him? Answer,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: three weeks. Question, not long. And Haley, you met her
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: through Zach? Answer, yeah, I met her when I went
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: to dinner at his grandmother's house. Question, okay, and do
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: you know Haley's last name? Answer, no, I don't. Question,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: do you know where she lives? Answer, no. Yes, she
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: lives on 72nd Street, four streets away from me. Question, okay.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: And tell me now, what happened with Haley? Answer, okay, well,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the third time of hanging out with Haley, because I
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: was a cousin, well, Zach, and we were over there
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: watching a movie, and this guy called, or actually it
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: was a woman, but it was for a guy, and
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: she's talking to Haley, and then she said that, well,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what the woman said, but she said,
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: do you have anybody left with you? And Haley said, yes.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: And then she said, are you bringing them to the
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: guy's house in gardens or wherever he lives? And she said,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'll call you back. And then she
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: told Zach that I was going to come with her
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: to this guy's house so that so that she was
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: going to get paid. Like, I don't know how much money,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: but this man's been paying money and that she was
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: going to bring me along. And then Zach was like, no,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: you're not taking her. And then she's like, well, I'll
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: ask her. And then she just told me she didn't
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: tell me what she's going to do. She just told
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: me she's going to some old guy's house and inaudible,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: get my shoes and go shopping. So I was like, OK.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: And then we went. I don't know what day it
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: was because she picked me up. I'm pretty sure it
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: was a Saturday or a Sunday. So she picked me up.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: And when we get in the car and she inaudible
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: and then we left and we were still driving and
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: we went to his house and we were waiting in
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: the kitchen and the old man came in and he's like, hello. Um,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: I don't even know. I think it's Jeff. I'm Jeff.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: And then we, I'm like redacted. And then she, um,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: went upstairs and I guess gave him money. And she
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: went back downstairs. We weren't there. We were only there
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: for 30 minutes. And then we left. And then we
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: go to Marshall's to go get some, a skirt and
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: a purse. But she didn't get the skirt. She only
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: ended up getting the purse. And that was like a
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: black purse. Question. That's all that happened. Answer. Uh-huh. Question, well,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: I'm hearing a lot more happened. Answer, like what? I
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: know like what went around the school. Question, like what
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: went around the school? Tell me what happened at school. Answer,
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: in school, everybody was saying that I got paid with
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: the $ 300 for the old man, that old guy, because he's, oh,
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: first of all, is that I got singered by the
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: old man, and then it was I had sex with
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: the old man, and then it was I'm a prostitute,
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: and I got paid $ 300. Question, and who was spreading
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: these rumors? Answer, um, my, this girl. She used to
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: be my friend Sheena, but I guess. Question, where would
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: she get? Answer, after she cuts off the question, from Zach,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: because I broke up with him. Well, that's what I think.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: I think when I broke up with him, he got
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: very mad and told the girl, because this girl, she
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: hated me, because I went out with him and she
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: likes him. Question, which girl is this? Answer, Sheena. Question. Sheena.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Like Zach? Answer. Yes. Question. Went out with him? So
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: she started these rumors? Answer. Cause I went out to
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: the fair and she was supposed to go with him
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: but I guess he didn't like her and then we
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: started talking and she got mad because I was talking
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: to him. Question. What does? Can you tell me more
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: about Haley? Answer. I don't really know that much. All
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I know is that she, the only thing I know
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: about her is that her boyfriend, but then they broke up.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Like she met him at a party. That's the only
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: thing I know. And that she has brown hair and like,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: I don't really know about her. I went to her house. Question.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Are you telling me and want you to know something? Okay. Answer. Uh-huh. Question.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Regardless of what had happened. Okay. I'm being very honest.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: You're not in trouble for anything. Answer. I know. Question,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: whether you did something with this man or not? Answer, uh-huh. Question,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: whether you did something with this man? What I'm trying
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: to do is find out if this type of thing
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: is going on, and you're not the only one, and
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: I don't think you are the only one. Answer, I
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: don't think so either, cause the other kid Anthony, he
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: knows Haley too, and I, cause he's telling me, he's like,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: where do you know Haley? And then I was like,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: she's my boyfriend's cousin. Oh, that girl's bad. And I'm like, oh, okay,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: too bad. Question. Did you do anything with this man? Answer. No,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: we just went upstairs and just got money. And I
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: don't know. Question. What did you do when you went upstairs? Answer.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I don't. It was me in the kitchen. She went
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: upstairs with for like five minutes. Question. Who went upstairs? Answer.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: The old guy. I think his name. I'm pretty sure
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: that his name's Jeff. And Haley. And the woman. I
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: don't know. I think it's his assistant. Question. Okay, do
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: you remember what her name was? Answer. I have no
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: idea what her name was. Question. Can you describe her
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: to me? Answer. Blonde. Tall. Taller than me. Question. How
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: tall are you? Answer. I have no idea. Five something. Question. Okay.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: And they didn't talk about anything in front of you? Answer. No,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: they just... I introduced myself and I was like... He goes, Hi,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: I'm Jeff. And I was like, hi, I'm redacted. And
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: then they were like, OK, you can come with us.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: And then they walked upstairs through the kitchen and then
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: like a little doorway and the stairs going up. And
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: all I could see was like a picture on the
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: wall as you go up. Question. OK, so you're describing
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: it with your hands. So in front of you is
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: a kitchen. Answer like the door is here. Question to
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: the right is a door. Answer. Uh-huh. And then you
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: walk in and there's a table with like a sink
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: right there. That was the big island table. Question. Uh-huh. Answer.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: And there's like a little circle of chairs that you
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: could sit on. Question. Stools. Answer. Stools. And we were
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: just sitting there waiting because he wasn't there yet. Then
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: he came inside after we were standing there about five
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: minutes because like there was a gate and a bodyguard guy.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: When we opened the gate and knocked on the door, security,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: some guy like a bodyguard kind of type of guy,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: same guy walked up and he's like, excuse me. what
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: are you here for? And we're here to see Jeff.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: And then he was okay. Well, come inside. Jeff will
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: be here in like five minutes. And then we waited
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: and he was like, you can help yourself to a drink.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: And then he left. And then two minutes after the
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: guy left, Jeff and a lady walked in and they
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: introduced themselves and were like, hi, my name is redacted.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: And then she's like Haley and all And then there's
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: like a walk-in door thing. And you walk in like
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: a cabinet thing, not a cabinet, but the island thing.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: And then the door would be right there. Question. Okay. Answer. Yeah. Question.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: So they walked away out of your sight. Answer. Uh-huh. Well,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: there was another girl there. I was never by myself.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: I don't remember the girl's name, but she's Haley's friend. Question. Okay. Answer.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: She was Haley's. Question. What is Haley? Do you have
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: any idea of what? Why this woman, this assistant would
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: ask if Haley had anybody with her? Answer. I don't know,
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: but you call the lady. She really like an audible.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know what's wrong. I mean, when she walked in,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: she was kind of like, I don't know, but she
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: was just, um, she couldn't say anything about her. She
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: was just first name. And then that's it. And then
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: she was just like right to the point. She didn't
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: try to be friendly, you know. Question. What do you
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: mean she didn't try to be friendly? Answer. She wasn't like, hi.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, she was just like, hi. Um,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: I don't remember her name, but she said she was
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: from Ohio. I remember that. Question. And your friend or
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: Haley's friend stayed in the car? Answer. No, she was
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: with us when we walked in and she sat. She
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: was just there. She didn't do anything. She was with me.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: We were right at the table. Like we were sitting
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: having a conversation for like two seconds. Then Haley came
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: back downstairs. And then she's like, thanks, Jeff. And I'm like, bye, Jeff.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: And then the other girl was like, bye. And then
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: we left. Question. Okay. Did Haley tell you what was
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: going on upstairs? Answer. No, she just, I didn't ask
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: because like Haley, the only reason I know the money
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: was to go shopping. Question. Did she give you any money? Answer. Uh-huh. Question.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: How much money? Answer. $ 300. Question, what did you do
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: with the $ 300? Answer, I didn't spend it. And then
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: I went to school. And then my principal, because I
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: got into a fight with the girl Sheena for saying that,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: because she said that I was, I had done all
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: of that to the old man to get money. And
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: that's not true. That's why I got really angry when we, inaudible,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: before that. And then I went to the office, the principal,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: but actually she didn't say anything at first. And then
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: she was like, Sheena told her side of the story.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Can I see your purse? And I was like, go ahead.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, yes. And then my dad, my dad
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: and the principal and my stepmom, they were like, why
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: did you do that with an old man? And who
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: is the old man? I'll kill him. Blah, blah, blah.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: And then I was like, I didn't do anything. I
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: didn't do anything. And they didn't believe me. And I
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: kind of got mad at them. And then the whole thing.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: That's when I moved back to my mom's house because
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: my dad thought I was a prostitute. Question. You know
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: that just because something may have happened, that doesn't make
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: you a prostitute. Answer. I know. Question, do you? Answer, yes.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: All right, we're going to wrap up right here. And
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: in the next episode, dealing with the topic, we're going
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: to pick up where we left off. All of the
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: information that goes with this episode can be found in
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: to pick up where we left off with the Michelle
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Pagan interview with one of Epstein's survivors in the early
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: days of the investigation down in Florida. And when I
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: say question, that's Michelle Pagan asking the questions. And when
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: I say answer, that's the survivor giving her reply. Question.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: You know, I've been doing this for a long time,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: and I'm not saying you're not telling me the truth.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: I think you're not telling me the whole truth about
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: what happened, okay? Matter of fact, I know you're not.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: And I know that you might be a little afraid
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: looking on it. Answer. Okay, I... Because they already came
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: to my dad's house and they did something to my
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: dad's tires and my dad almost died. Question, okay, give
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: me your hand. I'm here to help you. Look at me. Answer,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: I don't want him to get hurt because he already,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: they almost already killed him. Question, I'm here to help you. KB,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: who is the therapist, jumps in. Honey, I'm going to
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: go get you some water, okay? Answer, okay. Michelle Pagan, question.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: I'm here to help you, okay? I'm being honest, okay?
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be very upfront, but I need you
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: to be upfront with me, okay? Answer, okay. Question, the
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: only way I can help you is if you're honest
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: with me, 100% honest with me. Answer, okay. Question, your
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: counselor is not here. Tell me what happened. Now, be
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: honest about it. Answer, okay. When I got there, that
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Jeff guy and the lady were there. And then the
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: lady wanted me to come upstairs and she's like, she's
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: talking to me. And then she was putting out a
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: table like for a massage. And then, um, and then when,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: and then she like put the covers on the table
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: and they like, it comes to like inaudible, whatever. And
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: she's like, oh, Jeff will be up in a second.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: And then the Jeff guy got there. She was like,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: she was like, take off your clothes. And I didn't
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: know what to do because I was only the one
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: up there. And I just took off my shirt and
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: I was like in a bra. And then he came
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: in and he had a towel over him. And he
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: was like, no, take off everything. So I took off
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: my pants and I was in my bra and underwear.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: And he was like, now you're going to give me
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: a massage. Then he went on the table and he's like, here,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: the lady that was putting down the table got out
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: three lotions. and put them on the table, and then
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: he picked out which lotion. He was like, give me
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: a massage with this lotion, and then I was giving
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: him a massage, and he said, you can get on
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: my back. So he was on the table, and I
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: was straddling him on his back, and giving him a massage,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: and then he was turning around, and then he whacked off,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: and then he's like, oh, you have a really hot body,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: and then I was like, that's disgusting, but I didn't
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: say that, And then he's like, oh, excuse me for
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: a second. And he, I guess he went into the
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: other room and he whacked off again. And then he
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: came back and said to me, like, I'm done. And
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: he's like, here's your money. And then I was going
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: downstairs and he acted all nice and stuff. He's like, bye.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Nice to meet you. Hope you can come back again.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: And then Haley's like, how did it go? What did
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: you do? And I'm like, he made me give him
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: a massage, Haley. And she's like, I know. And then
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: we went to Marshall's. And she got a purse and
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: stuff because she got paid too. But I, she didn't
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: do anything. I don't think because she was downstairs the
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: whole time while she knew I was up there. Question,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: when she asked you to go with her. Answer, uh-huh. Question,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: did you know? Here's your water. Question, okay, thank you.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: KB inaudible. KB, um, you know what? I'm going to
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: go down to the dorm. She knows how to find me. Pagan, okay,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: you feel better without her here? Answer, yeah, because I'm
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: embarrassed because it's really gross and MP, it is. Question
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: or answer, she might tell my mom. Pagan, that's why
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: I'm here, okay? Answer, and I don't want my parents
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: to find out. Pagan, well. Answer, because I told them
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: it wasn't true. Question from Pagan, your parents love you, okay?
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: And their main thing is for you to be healthy, okay?
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Not only physically, but up here. And they know that
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: right now you have a lot of issues. And I
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: think this is one of them. Because like you said,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: you thought it was gross, right? Answer, because he's like
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: 45 years old. Pagan, question, that's okay. Let's backtrack a bit.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: When you went with Haley, tell me the part where
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: it was the truth, okay? You were with Zach and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Haley said, let's go. Answer, yeah. Okay, we were watching.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I don't remember the movie, but I know we were
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: watching a movie and then we were gonna go take
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: a ride because me and Zach were gonna get dropped
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: off at the bowling alley. So Haley, inaudible, she was
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: saying about her boyfriend and Haley got on the phone
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: and then she was talking to that lady and that
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: lady was like, Haley, Haley was actually saying, I'm coming,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: I'm coming. And Haley was like, can I bring somebody?
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: And then Haley was like, the lady was like, what
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: does she look like? And she started describing me And
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: then Zach turned around and said to Haley, who are
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: you talking to? And then Haley went like that. And
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: she was talking to the lady and like just describing
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: me what I was wearing that night. And then the
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: lady was like, OK, well, Jeff is going to want
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: to talk to you. And Haley was like, that's fine.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: And then she got off the phone. And then Zach said,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I was like, too. Why are you describing me? Who
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: are you talking to? And she said, like, Sage, do
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: you want to go with me tomorrow? I'm going to
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: go pick up some money from my boss's house. And
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: then she's like, because I get paid tomorrow. And then
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I said, OK. And Zach's like, no, because I guess
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Zach knew that or what she did because Zach said no.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: And he got really mad at me and said, no,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: you're not going. You're not going with her. And then
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I was like, and she's like, you know, but you
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: have to come with me. And I was like, cause
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: you know, the old man's going to give us both
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: money so we can go shopping. Cause that's like my
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: boss and he's really nice. And I was like, okay.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: And then Zach didn't say anything the rest of the
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: night about it. He was just like really inaudible out
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: there and mad. Not really mad, but he was just
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: like frustrated that Haley, I guess would say that. Question.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: And you didn't know what was going on? Answer. I
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: didn't know it was gonna that I had to give
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: a massage and get naked. Question. What did you think
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: was going to happen? answer that like she just said,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but I knew something was wrong. Nobody's
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: just going to pay you money, but I didn't think
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: like that. I thought that was just Haley's business, whatever
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Haley do. Just go over there. And she told me
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: that it was a rich guy and she was saying,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: oh my God, he's so rich, blah, blah, blah. And
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: he has like a new Mercedes and all this stuff.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: And she's like explaining them. And then What's it called?
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: So actually, we didn't. We left, but we didn't end
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: up going to the bowling alley. Her boyfriend went to
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: his house really fast to go get Haley something from
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: his house. And then he brought his car back to
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Haley's house. And we were just sitting there watching the movie.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: But she was like, are you guys sure you're going
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: to go with me? And I was like, OK, I'll
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: go with you. I'm like, last time, what are we
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: going to do, Haley? We were going to go shopping
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: and we were discussing what we were going to buy
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: with our money because she told me how much money
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I was going to get. $ 300. And I was cool.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I know that I'm going to buy. We're just like
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: saying what we're going to buy with the money. She said,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: I need to buy a purse. Then the next day, actually,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: I gave her my phone number that night so she
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: could call so she could pick me up. And then
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I went in the house that morning. She called me.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: She said, are you still going to come with me?
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah. So she's like, okay, get ready.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be there in 30 minutes. And then
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: she came to the house in like 30 minutes and
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: she had a friend with her. Question, do you remember
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: the name of the friend? Answer, I don't know her name,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: but she was like really dark, kind of like a
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Spanish girl. Pagan, darker than me. Answer, uh-huh. Question, okay. Answer,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: and she had short hair. She had like a styled hair,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: like a cute little style. I don't remember her name.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: I talked to her, but I didn't remember her name
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: because an audible right after I got in the car.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: And then all the way there, we were just listening
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: to music and singing and stuff and like just laughing
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: and stuff. And she told me the girl about her
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: boyfriend and stuff. Question. So you're driving. So Haley picks
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: you up. Do you remember what day it was? Answer. No.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: But I know it was a Sunday because I told
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: my dad, dad, can I please go on Sunday with
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Haley to go shopping? And my dad goes, where are
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: you guys going shopping? Because he didn't know Haley and
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: said no at first. And I was like, dad, that's Haley,
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: you know, Zach's cousin. Then my dad says, okay, but
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: I have to meet her. So then Haley called me afterward.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: And then she's like, I'm going to need $ 10 for gas.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: And she was like, can your dad give me $ 10?
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: And then I was like, sure. But I didn't ask
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: my dad. I just inaudible $ 10. And then my dad was, okay.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And my dad called me. He's like an audible. I'm
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: not going to be able to give you money. So
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: then I was really mad, but then I didn't tell Haley,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: but my dad ended up redacted in an audible. Then
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Haley was pulling up. My dad ended up pulling up.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: So Haley and my dad saw each other and Haley
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: was like, oh my God, your dad is so hot.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: And then I said, right. Started laughing about it. And
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: then my dad gave Haley $ 10 for gas. Question Pagan.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: So you got in the car. What kind of car
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: did she drive? Answer, a truck. Pagan, what color? Answer,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I don't remember, but I think it was a bluish color.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: I think so. Pagan, so she drove. Answer, yes, she drove. Pagan,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: she drove. Answer, yeah, and I was in the passenger seat,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: and there was like a whole bunch of junk back
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: behind her, and I was sitting next to it. Inaudible,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: or stuff for school. And there was like, but I
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: don't know, but it took a pretty long time to
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: get there. And you know, where like the rich people are,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: what is that street where the Kravis Center is, but
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: farther than that, like towards the beach more that way.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: MP Pagan. Yeah. Towards the beach answer. Yeah. That way.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: And that's where, yeah, that's like where he lives. But
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: when she pulled into, I know for a fact it's
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: a pink house. I remember the pink house. And then
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: they had an Escalade in the driveway and then a
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Mercedes in his garage. I remember that much. Question, okay,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: do you remember? So you took the Kravis way or
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: did you? Answer, I don't remember where we. Question, you
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: don't remember which way? Answer, I just remember the building. Question,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: it was near the ocean. Answer, yeah, I know because
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: one day. When I was with my friend Christina, that's
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: exactly where we went, like around that area. Not the
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: city place area, but you know, it kind of looks
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: like that area, like where the Kravis Center was, and
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I remember, that's how I remember. Do you remember seeing
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: the beach and the ocean? Answer, no, but we went
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: over that bridge where the ocean was, and the bridge
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: went over. Question, okay, so you definitely went over the bridge. Answer, yeah,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: went over the bridge, and it was up, and we
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: had to wait for it to go down. So we
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: were there like five minutes. Question that that was time
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: you were with Haley. Answer. Yes. Question. OK. And then
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: the house you said you described it as pink. Answer.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: It was like it was a two story house and
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: then it was like a pinkish color, pinkish pink color.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: Answer or question. Where were the gates in front or something? Answer, well,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: it wasn't a gate, but the back door had a
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: gate to it. And it was a white gate. And Haley,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: just like she knew that you had to open it
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: and it wasn't locked. So we just opened it and
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: there were three, two or three steps and you just
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: walk up. And then he had a pool and it
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: had like the floor. The floor was like a hard something.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: It wasn't concrete. It was squares like concrete, but they
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: weren't like MP question, like tile, you mean? Answer, it
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: was like a coral concrete, you know, like, and then
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: the pool was there and the house was there. I
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: guess it was like a security house because a man
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: that was with the security came out and he was like,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: what are you guys here for? Because you're knocking on
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: the door. And then Haley said, we're here to see Jeff. Question,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: and then what did the man say? Answer, He was like, oh, okay.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: And she's like, she smiles. And then he let her
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: in an audible, but he opened the door and then
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: we went in and then an audible and then the counter.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Here's the door when you walk in and there's a
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: refrigerator and then the window, a glass sliding window looks
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: out of the pool. Question. Okay. Answer. And then the cabinet,
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, the cabinet, the island was like here. And
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's like a cabinet over there and the
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: door was right here. Question, okay, just for the tape purposes,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: the way you described it, okay, is you walk in
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: and on the left-hand side, answer, uh-huh, question, because you
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: mentioned right now who's there. Answer, inaudible, question, and then
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: you walked in on the left-hand side. What did you see? Answer, like,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: if I was getting out of the doorway. Pagan answers, uh-huh,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: and then the survivor continues. Okay, well, there's a door.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: You look straight. It would be straight from you, but
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: a little towards the right. Pagan, okay, and? Answer, it
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: wasn't a door door, it was just a doorway. Pagan, okay. Answer,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: no wait, maybe it, I don't know, because it was open,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: but there could have been a door, but it was open,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: so I didn't really pay attention, but I know it
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: was a doorway going up. Pagan, okay, so now you're
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: in the kitchen area, right? Answer, yeah. Question, the three
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: of you. Answer, yeah. Question, Where did you park the car? Answer,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: we parked in his little driveway area. All right, folks,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: we're going to wrap up this episode right here. And
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: in the next episode, dealing with the topic, we're going
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: to pick up where we left off. All of the
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: information that goes with this episode can be found in
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: to pick up where we left off with Michelle Pagan
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: and her interview with one of the survivors, during the
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: initial investigation into Jeffrey Epstein down in Florida. Pagan, so
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: you're in the kitchen area, what happens next? Answer from
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: the survivor, we were waiting there, we were talking, just
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: about how cool the house was. I'm like, oh my gosh,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: I've never been in a house like this. And then
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: the lady and the man came in, Jeff, I'm pretty sure,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: like 90% positive, and he walked in, he was like
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: in a t-shirt and pants, not pants, but you know,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: like maybe, like kind of dressy. And he was like, hello.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: He's like, hi, Haley. And then he said hi to me.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: And then he said hi to the girl. He knew
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: the girl and he knew Haley. But then he said,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: I don't remember your name. But the girl was like, oh,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: she's like, I know that he didn't remember her, but
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: he knew her. Do you know what I mean? Pagan, uh-huh. Answer.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: He didn't remember her name, but he knew she was.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: And then she's like, oh, hi. And she's like, who
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: are you? And I'm like, I'm redacted. And then he's like, okay,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: well then follow my, I don't remember the lady's name,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: but she, she, he said, follow her redacted upstairs. So
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: she's like, come on. And then we walked upstairs and
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I thought she gets interrupted by Pagan by herself answer. Yes.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I thought that Haley, cause she said that she was
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: going to get paid. So I thought Haley and the
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: girl was going to get paid and like, you know,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: like private privacy. And cause it was just him and
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: her and the other girl in the kitchen. And so
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: I went upstairs and as I was walking upstairs, there
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: was a picture of him in like a different country.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: And then I'm like, that's really cool. And the lady said,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: isn't it? And she was just walking upstairs and and
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: there was like a door, and then it was like
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: to a little inaudible, this big, and it had a couch,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: and a couch, and it was like another walkway towards
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: that way, and then walk towards, like keeping walking forward,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: and then to my right, and there was a bedroom,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: and then we turned right again, and there was a bathroom,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: a big, it was humongous, and the bathroom, it wasn't
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: like a bathroom bathroom it was like a sitting area
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: with a shower there humongous shower like a jillion people
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: could fit in the shower and then it was humongous
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: and there was like a door here and you opened
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: it and there was like a little desk with paper
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: and pads and stuff and i don't know in audible
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: Like sitting on the couch right here. Like against my.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: There's this big long couch. And it was pink and green.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Hot pink and green. And there. Cut off again by Pagan.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: The room or the sofa? Answer. The sofa. Pagan. Okay. Answer.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: And there's a table with a phone on it. And um.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: During when I was giving him a massage. He made
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: a phone call. But I don't remember whether he just
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: said like. He said four words and hung up. Yeah
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: I don't remember. Pagan. But the lady. So you were upstairs.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: And you're sitting down and the lady's there. What's she doing? Answer. Oh,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: she's well. There is a closet right here with a
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: table in it like the massage table. Pagan near the sofas. Answer. Yes,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: like a door on each side and I'm towards the door.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: There's a door for the table. She took that out
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: and there is like a safe and then she put
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: it in the middle. It's this way like long ways.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: And then she put like put like cloth over it.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: But she's looking around the room, I guess, just to
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: look like she was remembering something, I guess, like where
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: the lotion was. And there are like pictures of like
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: naked girls on the walls. And there was like there
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: was like one big mural of naked girls like butts.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: And then towards the door, there was like a cabin
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: in here, like a built in thing, like an audible.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: And there's draws in it. And she opened the last
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: drawer and there was a whole bunch of lotions, like
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: millions and millions of kinds of lotion. And she picked
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: up three kinds of lotions and put them on like
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: an armoire kind of thing with a mirror. And then
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: she said it there. And then after she told me,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: sit here for five minutes, like just sit here. And
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: eventually he came in and was like, hi, I'm Jeff.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, hi. And he's like, I'll be right back.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: You can take your clothes off. And then he left
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: and there was a bedroom out there and he just
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: went out there. And I don't know, but there's like
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: pictures out there. I think. I don't remember. He took
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: off his clothes and put a towel on him. But
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know if there was a towel thing back
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: there because it's like I don't remember. Question. Did he
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: undress in front of you? Answer. No, he didn't. But
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: he took his towel off in front of me. Answer
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: or question. OK, so he came back in. Answer. Yeah,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: he came back into the room and he was. Pagan,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: were you dressed? Answer. I was in a bra. And
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: he said, no, I meant get naked. And then I was,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: I went like that. And he was, you can keep
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: your bra and underwear on, but get down to your
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: bra and underwear. So I took off my pants because
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: he was real stern about it. Like, take off your pants.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: And then I just took off my pants. And then
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: he laid down on the table. But like, after he
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: was laying on the table, he took off the towel
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: just enough, you know, like you could see. Pagan? Pagan?
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Did you see him naked? Answer. Yes, I did. And
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: it was disgusting. Pagan. I don't mean to. I know
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: maybe it's disgusting, but can you describe him? Did he
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: have any marks, tattoos? Was he hairy? Answer. Yes, he
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: was really very hairy on his chest and his back
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: and towards. Okay, I don't mean to sound gross, but Pagan. No,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: say it the way you would say if you were
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: speaking to one of your best friends. Answer. Okay. Pagan inaudible. Answer. Okay,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: he was laying on his belly. Answer. side so his
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: butt was like up and there was like he had
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: a very hairy back all the way to here and
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: then there was just like a hairy butt line going
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: down to his butt Pagan okay answer is so gross
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: okay then Pagan did you see in front of him
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: answer yeah because he got off the table he like
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: turned this way so everything showed towards me and then
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: he got off and then he went and whacked off
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: and then he came back in but he was very
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: hairy on his chest area and I just looked like
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: for one second, and it was very, very disgusting. Okay,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: that's all I have to say about that. Pagan, do
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: you know what it means? And I have to ask
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: you because there are some people that don't. To be circumcised? Answer, no,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I don't. I don't really know, but I think he
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: was on steroids because he was a built guy, and
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: his weenie was very tiny. Pagan, his wee-wee was very tiny? Answer, yes. Question,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: and when you mean wee-wee, you mean what? Answer, his penis. Pagan, yes,
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: his penis, okay. Answer, yes, his penis. Pagan, people call
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: it different things, all right? I just wanted to make
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: sure we know. Okay, he laid down, he took off
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: his towel, and he laid down. Answer, he laid down
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: on the, she gets cut off by Pagan. Did he
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: take the towel completely off or just open it? Answer, no,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: completely off. Pagan, okay, where did he put the towel? Answer,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: on the floor, right like the table underneath. Question, okay,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: so he laid down, took off the towel. What happened next? Answer,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: and then he's like, get the lotion. So I grabbed
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: the lotion, which I had to walk almost naked, but
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I was in like a thong. So yeah, my butt
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: was showing and he, the table is like, I mean,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: the sink was, you know, the lotions were right there
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: and I was over here and he was like, go
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: get the lotions just so I could walk past him
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: with my butt showing to get the lotions. So I
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: go get the lotions and he's like, OK, like this lotion.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: And then I took the lotion and he's like squirted
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: on your hands and then massage clockwise on my back
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: because I didn't know how to do it. And then
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: he's like telling me where he would like the massage
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: here and here, the right to the left, down more,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: up more. So I was just massaging and he turned
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: and started having a conversation. Oh, what happened to Haley?
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: And I'm like inaudible, my ex-boyfriend inaudible. What's your boyfriend's name? Zach.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: And he was kind of questioning me. And then he said,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: he's like, could you stop? I need to go. And
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: I just stopped. And I'm like, okay. He got off
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: the table. He put the towel over him. He bent down,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: got the towel. And then he left the room. And
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: you could hear him like, you know, you could obviously
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: tell what he was doing. Just like, question, I don't,
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I won't look at you. But do what he was doing.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: What you heard. I know it's kind of embarrassing. Answer,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: he was making sex noises. You know, like, I don't.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: They were very strange noises. That's all I can say. Question. Okay. Answer.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to describe them. They were very strange. Question.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Can you imitate them? Answer. I don't. I don't want
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: to make a fool of myself. Question. You won't. You're
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: not making a fool of yourself. You know, it might
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: say it's sex noises. He may say I was singing. Answer. Okay.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: He was like, then MP cuts her off. Pecan cuts
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: her off. I won't look at you. Go ahead. So
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: they go through all of it. She talks about she says, yes,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: groaning noises. That's it. OK, that was really embarrassing. It
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: really was. He was making those kinds of noises. And
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: then he walked back into the room, took off his
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: towel again, laid back down on the thing. And then
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: he wanted the same kind of massage. But he was like, oh,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: use your an audible a little bit more. Question, you
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: were massaging his back answer. Yeah. And then he's like,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: could you turn over for a second? go back out
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: of the room. He turned over and he said, OK,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: please massage my boobs. And then I was massaging his boobs.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: And he's like, he's like, oh, like as I was
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: doing it, as I was massaging, he was making the
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: same noises again, like, oh, my God, it's so embarrassing
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: to do this. But gone, I won't look. Answer, he
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: was going, oh, making those noises. And like five minutes
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: after that, He then he turned back around and he
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: started touching himself. And I think the massage was like
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: half an hour because I don't know the time. I
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: think it was a half an hour to 45 minutes
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: and then I was done. And then he I think
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: he was like safe somewhere because around us he didn't
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: have his wallet or something because right when we got
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: out the door. He left to go put the towel
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: on again and he put the towel on again and
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: went out of the room and he goes, you can
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: put your clothes back on. So I put my clothes
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: back on and he walked right out there like two
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: seconds and then comes back like within two seconds and
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: he's like, here's your money. And then he gave me
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: $ 300 and $ 100 bills and they were like brand new
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: because they had like one crease in them and that's
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: when they folded in half. And he said, thank you
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: for your time. And then he left. And he said,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: you can see your way out. And as I was
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: walking and I got lost because there are so many
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: different rooms and I got lost and walked back downstairs
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: and Haley was just smiling and giggling like, I guess
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: it was what the lady was saying. And then she
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: looked at me and she looked back at the lady
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: and she's like, the lady is like, oh, bye, Haley,
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: because it was time to go because I guess because
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: I was done. And then when we left the same
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: way we came in and then Haley's like, oh my gosh,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Haley goes, did you like it? Like, how much did
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: he give you? How much did he pay you? And
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I'm like 300. And I was kind of like 300 Haley.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Cause the girl was like this. She was looking at
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: me really weird. The other girl that was with her,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: she like was really quiet though. And then she just
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: looked at me really weird. Like she's trying to gaze
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: into my eyeballs. And then we went into the car
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: and we got in the car. Haley's like let me
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: see what he gave you and then I showed her
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: my $ 300 and she was like we're going to Marshall's
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: and then give me back my money and I put
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: it in my back pocket and then she was trying
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: to get me to describe what happened so I told
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: her what happened and she's like you could do this
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: every Saturday he's like so rich and I was just
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: kind of like yeah we could and then she put
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: the music on and then when we were leaving the
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: lady was walking outside and I inaudible want to the
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: cars really fast but she was going to the passenger
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: seat and she opened the door and then closed it
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Pagan what did Haley's friend say did you say anything
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: about it she was like interested in what happened Like
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: when we were talking, we like got into the conversation
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: and she was like giggling and laughing. Like, I think
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't say, I mean, I don't know inaudible or not,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: but she was acting surprised, you know, like giggling. She
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: was just like giggling and laughing along with Haley. And
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: then Haley goes, um, and then when I was giving
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: the guy the massage, he goes, I know Haley. She's
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: been working with me for a long time. And then
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: when I came back downstairs, Haley goes, you only paid
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: me 200. So Pagan, he liked you better? Answer, I
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: don't know. All right, so we're going to wrap up
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: this episode right here. And in the next episode, we're
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: going to pick up where we left off. All of
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: the information that goes with this episode can be found
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: going to pick up where we left off with the
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Michelle Pagan interview that kicked the Jeffrey Epstein investigation off
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the first time around down in Florida. Question, well, after
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: you left, where did you go? Answer, Marshalls or to
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: TJ Maxx. One of those two. TJ Maxx or Marshalls.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: And she bought a black purse. Question, okay, did you
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: see Haley after that again? Answer, um, I don't think so.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Because that's when I got grounded. And then that's when
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: I got in trouble with the fight. So after that,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I didn't. Most likely. Question, did you
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: ever speak to her again? Answer, no, because I got
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: my cell phone taken away. Question, okay, so you haven't
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: seen Haley since the day you went to Jeff's house? Answer, correct. Question,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: are you sure? Answer, yeah, I'm 100% sure. Question, how
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: do you know that she, now tell me what happened
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: with your dad? Answer, okay, because my dad, I didn't
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: know about until my sister told me when she came here.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: But my sister said on Thursday was coming here. And wait,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Wednesday night, my dad said that he heard the dog
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: barking and my dog is inside. So he's barking and
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: he's outside like barking towards outside. And then my dad
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: is like, shut up. Cause he forgets the dog's name
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: and the dog wouldn't be quiet. So he's like, I'm
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: taking the dog outside. And then my dad took the
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: dog outside and the dog was way in towards my
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: dad's truck. Like my dad thought he was attacking animals,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: but my dad, a person, a boy, I don't know
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: for a fact, but I know in my heart, it's
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Zach because Zach got really mad over the whole situation. Question,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: did you tell Zach what happened? Answer, yeah. And that's
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: when he punched the wall and he was like, my
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: face was right there and he punched the wall. Like
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: my face was right there and he punched the wall
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: right next to my face. And he started getting all
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: upset and crying and calling Haley. How could you do this? Blah, blah, blah.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: And then Haley is like, okay, I won't do it again.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: And like, she just kind of like hung up and
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: he was like, I hate her and I hate her
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: and I hate you too. And I was like, okay.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: And we broke up. And then I think an audible
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: on the computer. And I think he told Sheena what happened.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: And she turned it into extraordinary, like a story. So
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: at school, so I would look like, you know, like
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: I'm a bad person. Like I'm a slut. I'm a
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: whore or something. And she's going around school saying all
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: this stuff. And then so my parents came because that's
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: when I got mad at her and told her to
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: stop talking. But she wouldn't stop talking about it. So
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: I just got into a fight with her, like a
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: fistfight at school. And I got suspended. And she did too,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: but she only got suspended for one day because I
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: started the fight. So I got in trouble more. And
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: my dad got really mad and he grounded me for
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: it because he found the 300 in my wallet. And
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: then my dad was like, you're grounded. You're grounded forever.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: And he's all freaking out. How could you do this? Blah, blah, blah.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: The school said you did. And I didn't tell the
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: school how. I told them I got it from my
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: job because I worked at Chick-fil-A, but I quit. So
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: I said inaudible, but nobody believed me. So I was
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: just like, believe what you want. Because I didn't want
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: to tell the principal or my parents. Question. And I
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: think the best thing that you're going doing is that
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: you're being honest. Okay. Answer. Uh-huh. Question. You already know
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: that they have a pretty good idea what happened. Okay. Answer.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: I didn't even know there was an investigation. Question. Well, answer.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: I just knew. Question, well, this is why. What's happening
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: is what I was made aware of, this situation. Answer
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: from my school. Question, I'm not going to say okay.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: I was made aware of the situation. And they look
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: at it like you were taken advantage of. Not that
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: you did anything wrong, okay? Even though you went willingly.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Even though you went there willingly, you were still taken
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: advantage of, okay? Because you were put in a position
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: that you felt you had no choice. Once you were there,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: before you went there, telling me about how Jeff... told
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: you to take off your clothes. You took your pointer
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: and you said that he was really stern and you
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: banged your leg. You put the pointer on your leg.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: When you said that, how did you feel when he
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: told you to take your clothes off? Answer, I don't know.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: I didn't know what else to do because I was
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: the only person up there and he's like 45 years
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: old and he has like big muscles because I don't know,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure 45 years old and big muscles,
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: a bodybuilder. Answer, okay. Or question, okay. Answer, so I
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: just felt intimidated because he's a guy, first of all,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: and I'm a girl. And I know that Haley was
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: all the way downstairs with the lady. And what was
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Haley going to do to help me all the way upstairs?
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: So I just did it. Question, okay, now there's one
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: way I'm a little confused is because you said that,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: and I'm using your words, okay, that he whacked off twice.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: You said before that he whacked off twice. When did
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: he do that? Answer, in between giving him a massage,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: like when I was giving him a massage, he was like,
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: excuse me for a minute, and he just left the room. Question, okay,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: that's once. When was the other time? Answer, like during
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: the thing, like when I was massaging his boobs. Answer,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: or question, when you, okay, when you were massaging his boobs,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: was his back flat on the table? How was he positioned? Answer, well,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: He was at first, and then when he started to
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: whack off, he got like his back went off the table,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: like kind of leaning. Question, okay, where were you standing? Answer,
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: I was standing up. I was not on him. I
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: was standing up inaudible, and I was like, he was towards, okay,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: he was on the table. I'm right here, and he's
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: leaning that way. Question, okay. Answer, like inaudible, because I guess,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but... And he was like, my face,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: it got hard to see what was going on because
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: of how low I was. And he just kind of
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: moved his head the other way. And he was like,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: he wants, she gets cut off by Pagan. Okay, but
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: just now, when you're saying that, you moved your hand.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Did you see him whacking off? Answer, yes, I saw
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: him whacking off. Question, okay, that's what I need to know.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Because you said he whacked off twice. Answer, uh-huh. Question,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: so he whacked off in front of you? Answer, uh-huh. Question,
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: and you saw his hand doing, or you saw his eyes,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: what was going on? Answer, okay, I saw his face,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: facial expressions, and noises. Okay, what else did you see? Answer,
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: I just saw him. Question, you keep moving your hand,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: so in other words, he took his hand. And what
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: was he doing with his hand? Answer, I don't know
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: how to explain it, he was just whacking off. Question, okay, describe, don't. Answer. Okay, sorry.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: He put his hand on his penis and he put
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: it up and down and he was like making facial noises.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: I mean facial expressions and making noises. Question. So you
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: saw him doing that. He did that in front of you. Answer. Yes. Question.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Do you know what it means when someone ejaculates? Answer.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: It means they're horny. Question. No. What it means is
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: once they're while they're whacking off and I'm using your words. Okay.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Another word for that is masturbating. Okay. Answer. Yes. Question.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Do you know what it means to masturbate? A boy
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: does it. Answer. I don't know why they do it
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: or I know why they do it, but I don't
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: know what it does. Question. Okay. Answer to them. Question.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: In other words, fluid comes out of there. Answer. Oh, okay. Question. Okay.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: I'm just being very, I'm going to tell you because
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: I think answer. I know that part. Question. Okay. So
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: fluid comes out and that's ejaculating and it's called semen.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: So while he was whacking off, did you see any
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: fluid come out? Answer, it was, yes, because he had
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: to take the towel and wipe his thing before he
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: got off the table. And again, I got $ 300. Question, okay. Answer,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: he took the towel and like, and then, okay, like
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: he took the towel to wipe himself and then he
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: was getting off and then his way instead of this
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: way and this way like that. Question, okay, since you've
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: seen his penis, was there anything distinctive about it? Like,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: did he have a mole on it? Answer, no, it
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: was very small. Question, very small, that's fine. Did you notice?
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: You said he was very hairy on his chest. Did
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: he have tattoos? Answer, uh-uh, not that I saw. Question,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: did he have any scars? Answer, no, but he had
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: freckles somewhere because he was huge. Question, you're pointing at
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: the chest area. Answer, yeah, some freckles. Question, like a
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: mole or a freckle? Answer a freckle question. Can you
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: tell me about what he looks like? Answer. He had
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: like not white hair, but it was like not white. But,
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: you know, it was kind of like like me. It
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: was like, I don't know. answer he was going gray
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: question yeah he was going gray question what color did
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: he have before blonde brown answer no question you were
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: describing Jeff to me with a freckle and he was
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: going gray and what else answer um like like his
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: skin color is like when I saw him when you
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: have a sunburn But it's like when you have a
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: couple of days and it's turning into a tan. It
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: was like a reddish tan color. And he had like
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: a long face. And that's about all I can remember.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: And he had a white t-shirt when he first came in. Question. Okay. Answer.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I don't really remember. Question. Did he have any jewelry
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: on his body that you noticed? Answer. I didn't remember. Question. Okay.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: Do you remember the color of his eyes? Answer. Nope. Question.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Did he have any facial hair like a mustache or
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: a goatee or anything? Answer. Answer, no, but his eyebrows
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: were really thick and they were bushy, like everywhere. Question,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: did he ever ask you to do anything other than
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: massage him? Answer, no. Question, are you sure? Answer, yes. Question,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: did he try to? Did he try any time to
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: grab your hand and try to put it somewhere? Answer, no, no, no, no.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: I know what you're getting at. I did not whack
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: him off. Question, okay, you said that you straddled him. Answer, uh-huh. Question,
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? Answer, when he was
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: on his stomach and I was giving him a massage,
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: like I was, you know, where like, oh, I'm like
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: the butt. And then like I was sitting on his butt,
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: but a little above his butt. But I was, it was,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: butt naked and he was butt naked. Question, okay. Answer,
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: my butt was, my butt cheeks were on top of
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: his butt and the real little of his back. Question,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: now when you say that you were butt naked, Answer,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: I meant with underwear and bra. Question, okay, did you
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: ask to get on top of him or did he
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: ask you to get on top of him? Answer, uh-huh. Question,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: or did you do that on your own? Answer, no.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: He's like, because at first I was giving him a massage, like,
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: you know, standing up. And he's like, it would feel
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: more comfortable if you got on my back. Could you
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: please do that? And then I did that. Like, um,
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: I wasn't at first, I didn't want to sit on
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: his hairy, you know, butt. So I was kind of like,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: you know, like pushing my legs on the table. So
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: like I could kind of sit up and he was like,
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: could you please just put all, like just sit on me,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: put all your body weight on me. And then I went,
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: I was just kind of like thinking I did when
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: I was actually sitting on him. I didn't realize what
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: it was. And then like, I got grossed out as,
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: and as I'm going down, kind of like popped up again.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Cause it was gross question. Okay. He never tried to
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: touch you answer. Besides, like, you know, well, what do
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: you mean by touching? Like, sexually touching me? Question. No.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Did he ever try to touch you? Answer. He put
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: his hand on my back when he was whacking off
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: or masturbating. Like, he was just... Question. You keep, like, motioning,
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: like smacking. Answer. No. Question. What do you... Answer. Like,
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: when you're leaning on something, putting your force on it.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: He was going like that. Pulling. You know. Not like,
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: you know. Answer. Can you show me what you mean? Answer. Okay. Okay. MP,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: let's say I'm on my back. Where would you be?
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: I'm Jeff. Where would you be? Standing. Answer. I'm right here.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: I was like, I was like sitting right here. Question. Okay. Answer. Okay.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: And when he backed up question, which way was this answer? Yeah. Question. Okay.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: I'm going to my left answer all the way around
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: until your back is on the table. Question. Okay. I'm
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: facing you answer. And then Your face is a little
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: bit that way. Answer, my right, okay. Answer and inaudible
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: towards like on his knee. Answer or question, okay, I'm
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: hunched over a little bit. Answer and I'm over here
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: and I'm still giving you a massage and everything, but
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: this hand is around me and inaudible. Question, okay, my
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: left hand would be, so my left hand would be
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: around your shoulders. Answer, no, under my arm while I'm
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: going like that. Question, okay, so I'm holding you like
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: around the waist. Answer, uh-huh, and that hand was on his. Question,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: his right hand. Answer, yes. Question, okay, it just gives
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: me a better picture of trying to understand, that's why. Answer, uh-huh. Question,
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: and I appreciate you doing that. I don't mean to
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: make you feel uncomfortable. Do you feel uncomfortable? Answer, no. Question, okay,
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: and after everything was done, did he watch you get dressed? Answer, no,
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: because I was getting dressed while he was out there
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: getting the 300. I guess that's what he was doing.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: That's the only thing that he came back in with.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: He was still in a towel and stuff. Question in
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: the room, at all, do you think, I don't know
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: if there is or not, but do you think there
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: was anything in there that may have recorded what you did? Answer,
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh. Question, a video camera? Answer, oh my gosh,
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: I didn't think about that. There was lots of places
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: that there could have been one because there's pictures that
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: could have been, I don't know. Pagan, when he walked out,
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: the reason why I ask is because he walked out
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: once and then came back in, right? Answer, yes. Pagan,
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: so it could be he just whacked off. I was
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: just curious. I don't know if there is or not. Answer,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: if there was, I didn't know about it. Pagan, okay,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: so you get dressed, you go downstairs. Where is that
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: woman again? Answer, downstairs, talking to Haley and the other girl. Question, okay. Answer, yes.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: They were having a conversation. Question. Okay. And at any time,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: did he speak to you or does he know how
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: old you are? Did he know how old you are? Answer. Okay. Yes.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, Haley told me to
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: say I was 18 because Haley said, tell him you're
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: 18 because if you're not, he won't let you in
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: his house. So I said he was, so I said
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: I was 18 as I was giving him a massage.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: He was like, how old are you? And then I
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: was 18, but I kind of said it really fast.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Because I didn't want to make it sound like I
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: was lying or anything. Question, so what other things did
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: he ask you? Answer, um, how I know Haley, what
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: school I went to. Question, did you tell him what
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: school you went to? Answer, yeah, I told him Wellington.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: I didn't tell him Royal Palm. Question, did he ask
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: you what grade you were in? Or did you tell
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: him what grade you were in? Answer, yeah, he was like,
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: what grade are you in? Because I told him I
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: was in 12th grade still. Question, okay. Answer, because I
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: told him I was 18, so... Question, so you told
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: him you were in 12th grade? Answer, yes. Question, are
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: you sure? Answer, yes. Question, okay, what else did you
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: talk about? Answer, um, that's about it. He was kind
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: of asking me how, like, I knew Haley. Is Haley
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: nice to me? And then he told me how he
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: knew Haley, and he was like, I was kind of like,
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: how do you know Haley? Because I brought up the conversation.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: He said, well, I know Haley because she's been working
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: for me for a long time. And then, like I
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: kind of, you kind of get the picture, working for you,
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: and hello, I'm sitting there giving him a back massage,
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: so I kind of figured it out. Question, he never
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: said that. He just, answer, yes. Question, said that she
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: worked for him. Answer, yeah, but don't, on our way
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: back home, that, like, doesn't make any sense if she
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: didn't do that, because why would Haley be doing inaudible
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: for almost the same amount of money as me? Question, right, well,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: why couldn't he pay her that day? Answer, I don't
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: know because that's a good question. Cause she didn't as
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: far as I know. But I don't know. But I'm
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: pretty sure she didn't tell me she didn't think. She
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: was just downstairs having a conversation. And I think I
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: went up to the lady. He paid her because like,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: you know, so because he paid her while I went upstairs.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: And when I went upstairs, she was still talking to
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: the lady. And still she goes, when we were in
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: the kitchen waiting, the old man come to the house.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: And she said, oh, the chef is so hot. He
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: works here. And she was like, he's like, he's so hot,
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: you know, saying his face. And then the other girl
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: inaudible because when we saw the chef come in, he
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: was old too. Question. So Haley likes older guys. Answer.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: Must like it. Question. Okay. So you left off that
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: that was the last time you see him. Answer. Yeah,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: that was the last time I went. Question. Has Jeff
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: ever tried to call you? Answer. Nope. Question. Did you
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: leave a phone number? Answer. Yeah, actually I did. Because
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: when I was leaving, he goes, um, please leave your
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: phone number so Haley can keep in touch with you
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: because she doesn't have your phone number. So I didn't.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: I just gave him my cell number. I didn't give
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: him my house number. I gave him my cell number. Question,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: and how long ago was this? Answer, oh my gosh,
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you the date, but it was about maybe,
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh, a month and a half ago. I
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: don't really know. Question in February. Answer, I gets cut
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: off by Pagan because we're in March right now. Answer,
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Either the very beginning of February or the end of January.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you. Question. How long after did you
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: get into that fight with Sheena? Answer. Um, like a week. Question.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: You got into a fight with Sheena on the 9th? Answer. Okay,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: so yes. It was about a week after or before. Question. Okay.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: And who else besides Zach did you tell what happened? Answer.
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: That's it. Question. Besides Haley, of course. Question. Or answer.
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: Zach and Haley. Question. Do you think Haley brought anybody
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: else to that house that you know of? Answer. No.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: But she wanted me to bring my sister that same
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: day was going to her. Question. Are you lying about anything? Answer. No.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: I'll swear on the Bible. Question. Okay. Swearing to God.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: That's good enough for me. Answer. I swear to God. Question, okay,
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: is there anything else you'd like me to talk about? Answer, no,
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: because that's about nothing else about the whole thing. Question,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: so that's it. You did not have any kind of
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: sex with him. Answer, heck no, I will swear on
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: my mother's grave. Question, you know... What having sex with
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: somebody means? Answer, yes, I know what having sex with
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: somebody means. Question, okay, and you at no time touched
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: his penis. Answer, at no time did I touch his penis. Question,
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: at any time did he touch you? Question, or answer,
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: at no time. Question, besides putting his hands. Answer, besides that,
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: no times did he touch me. Question, and just so
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: I can be sure, you saw him whacking off once. Answer, yes,
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: I saw him. Question, okay, and as far as you think, Answer,
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: I think I know. Well, I couldn't say I know,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: but it's the same noises that were being made when
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: he was inaudible. Question, and that's it. Thank you very much.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: This will conclude the interview. The time now by my
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: watch is approximately 3.05. Alright folks, so that's going to
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: do it for this portion of the Epstein files that
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: have been unsealed. But have no fear, there is plenty
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: more on the way. All of the information that goes
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: with this episode can be found... in the description box.