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Episode 5 with Steve Campbell · Clean Water Conversations

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone and welcome to Clean Water Conversations, the podcast where we have casual discussions about creating clean and clear waterways right here in Lancaster County.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Ken.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, everybody.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Allison.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: Allison, we're at episode five.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: So exciting.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: It is exciting, and and our guest is exciting.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because he is Steve Campbell, and he's the director of public works for the city of Lancaster, and he's also a member of our board of trustees at Lancaster Clean Water Partners.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: So grateful for his leadership.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: When he makes comments in a conversation, I definitely make sure I pay attention because he's so insightful, so smart, and just a wonderful, wonderful leader on our team.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: He's like E.F.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Hutton.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: I just dated myself, couldn't Well, Steve, of course, an uh another member of the city's work on uh especially the the MS-4 side of things.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not even gonna go through what that stands for.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Do I get to buzz you?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: For those of you who are new to the show, we have a rule against unexplained acronyms, and I just broke it, mostly because I was being lazy.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: MS-4 stands for Municipal Separate Storm Sewer System.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Last episode we had we had Molly on and she talked um about a lot of different things.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Steve goes into more details about the um combined sewer overflow project.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it goes into more details about a lot of a lot of projects.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: The city's team at the Department of Public Works, they are one section of an amazing team that the City of Lancaster has.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's really great to be able to explore what that means, what it requires, what it does for Clean Water in Lancaster.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: So let's hit it.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do it.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we are here chatting with Steve Campbell.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: He is the Director of Public Works for Lancaster City and is a member of the Board of Trustees for Lancaster Clean Water Partners.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Steve, welcome to Clean Water Conversations.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much for having me.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now we always start these off with an icebreaker.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: So your icebreaker is now we'll talk about it in a bit, but you have been some in some really interesting places in the world.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: If you could have the tele power of teleportation and go anywhere, where would you go and why?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a very interesting question.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: As much work and hard work and effort we're doing here in the United States and in Lancaster, et cetera, I think I'd like to be in a part of the world where water is much more scarce.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're in an area where water is considered abundant.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Canada, it's considered even more abundant.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's overflowing in in Canada.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and we're very appropriately concerned, need to be concerned about the quality of water.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I I'd like to be able to utilize some of these skills in arenas where water is precious, where it's where it's at a stress, what are called stress levels, and that the water conservation efforts mean exponentially that much more than they actually mean here.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So much of that is the Middle East, much of that is, believe it or not, parts of South of North Central Europe, and uh much of uh northern Africa.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a yeah.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: You left us speechless.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's not easy to do.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Can you can you tell us a little bit about um about your background?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it's difficult to tell the reader's digest version of the reader's digest version, I guess.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: It would be.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I started out as an architect uh in New York City, uh, did a lot of work in not-for-profit organizations and for public housing or for affordable housing, did a lot of work in the South Bronx, um, went to work for the city government in New York, Department of General Services, which then became the Department of Design and Construction, worked on a lot of uh construction projects, technology projects, uh, and helped write the green, or what we called high-performance, green guidelines for the city back in 1998.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's that long ago.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: I then went into the private sector doing sustainable consulting for architects and for public projects.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, had an office downtown in uh in Lower Manhattan during 9-11.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I was there when the towers came down.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh my subsequent work was related to restoration work uh of some of the sites surrounding the World Trade Center.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um then for a while, believe it or not, I went to uh I m relocated to Lebanon for three years from 2004 to 2007.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: The country of Lebanon.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: The country of Lebanon.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: I I was teaching at the American University of Beirut for three years and worked with an engineering firm called Dar el Hantasa, where we did work in the natural environment in in Oman, in Egypt, in Jordan, and in parts of Lebanon.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Came back to the United States uh in 2007, started working for myself again as a consultant, doing green consulting with a firm in New York.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I was commuting between Washington, D.C.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: and uh and New York, then got a job in the city of Washington, Washington, D.C., with the Department of, I guess they call it the Department of General Services, doing construction and design for schools, public projects, uh, police stations, a variety of things of public facilities like that.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then became the the director of planning for within the Department of General Services to integrate with many of the organizations through throughout the city of Washington.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: So a colleague had been had worked with the Department of Planning in DC, and he had taken a position here in the Community Planning and Economic Development Office for the City of Lancaster, and had reached out to me and said, this would be a great opportunity for you to come.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's an opening in the Department of Public Works.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is an area that tends to lead with its values, and he and I had worked together on a number of other projects.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: I came, met the mayor, was very excited by the uh agenda that was here, very much related to community engagement as well as things that are purposeful and purpose-driven rather than just wrote or political, if you will.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And came and have not regretted it since.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Almost everything that I've learned in my life I can apply in one form or other to what I'm doing here.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Ross Powell It's so impressive every time I hear.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And new snippets come out.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's just amazing on the kind of places that you've been and the um the work that you've done.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for bringing all of it to Lancaster.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, thank you.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really very much enjoying it, and it seems to be appreciated.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot to do, and uh but a lot of people who are very interested in the in the outcomes.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: I I I can see the connection with um with your vocation, but uh what specifically draws you to conservation?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another part of uh my story.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: My father was an area conservationist with the U.S.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Department of Agriculture.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: He was a he was an agronomist, he went to Penn State and got an agronomy degree.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And in 1957, 55, I guess in 56, he and he and my mother moved out to North Dakota of all places because the the country was mapping the soils throughout the nation.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Wyoming, North Dakota, and Alaska had not yet been mapped in terms of soils, so he took the one closest to his home, which was Washington, D.C., which was Fargo, North Dakota.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I grew up with a resource conservationist all my life.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was an organic gardener since the age of nine.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: He was never, he never had a green thumb, but he was very much interested in the the natural environment.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: We would go to advocacy organization opportunities.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: We would this he would uh take me on field trips on into the different farms and wetlands, et cetera.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was just very intriguing to me, all of my growing upbringing.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's um putting more pieces together about when you make these really insightful comments about the the intersection and the um similarities between the work in urban environments and agriculture environments and those those rural pieces that there's a another version to it, but how you've experienced that in so many different parts of your life and then places that you face.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: In my world, I I don't see there being a huge distinction.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I see it as a continuum and that it is all systemic.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is all they're all related.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that you might be in New York City, which has a higher density of people and built environment doesn't separate you from the natural environment.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Being in a place like Lancaster, which is much more where the natural environment is much more evident in everything you do, even in the urban setting, I think it's very, very important.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of our interventions, for instance, in the city have been related to alleyways and to the green infrastructure in the streets and the public right-of-way.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh things that ordinarily don't come to mind when you think about the natural environment, but they're every much every bit as much a part of it as anything else.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good reminder.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think we'll get back to some of those questions related to the green infrastructure and the alleyway comment in particular.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now I'm seeing slides coming up, but I'm seeing presentations you've done.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So for those who who don't know, I mean, what what is the biggest difference between that urban environment and the ag environment as far as the conservation work and the clean water work?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: What is the biggest difference between them, do you think?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this it's a very p very interesting question to be asking.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: I almost don't know how to answer it, except to say that in the in an urban setting, one must be very conscious and proactive about how one manages the water, whether it's stormwater, wastewater, potable water, how it gets delivered so that it is integral to and seamless to your daily existence.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, if it is not managed well, it becomes not only a challenge, but it becomes a problem.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes, it it penetrates your basements and compromises the structures that are built around you in the urban environment.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, that's the same can be said in an agricultural setting as well, but it's uh since you're in a city environment, you're not dealing with people who are uh as accustomed to living in a natural environment, those interruptions, whether it's flooding or sinkholes, et cetera, are catastrophic.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a nat part of the natural course of your daily affairs.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you want to make sure that those are attended to in one way, or to the largest extent possible, prevented.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um it means being very, very conscious and conscientious about everything we do.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's why when we when we're thinking about a new public right-of-way, a new street or whatever, we're looking for stormwater management opportunities.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is this something where we can just divert something, or is it something where we need to put in a uh a rain garden, some sort of a forebay, which is a structure that preliminarily filters the water before it gets into the sewer systems?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, in in a city like Lancaster, the only city in the county which has a combined sewer overflow system or combined sewer system or CSS, we are very, very conscious of the fact that when it rains, those stormwaters combine with the sewers of your residentials, residences, and businesses.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when it's when it's too much to be taken care of in the natural course of events, that combined sewer and stormwater overflows CSOs into the Conestoga River.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell And you're saying that Lancaster City is the only place in the county that has that.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And tell us some of the history of that.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the city of Lancaster was built hundreds of years ago.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the way it was more commonly across the country?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And ours continues, and then kind of how does that play into more modern.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very good question.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Most people don't really understand that the city was established in 1743, I think, or 1740s or 1750s.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And many of the cities in colonial America and in up until the mid-19th century had combined sewer systems.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was just assumed that the water which was waste could easily be combined with your stormwater and just go into the into whatever river and not have any major consequences.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: As the healthcare systems became more aware of consequences of bacteria, uh, of other kinds of germs, et cetera, we realized, we as culture realized that combining sewer with stormwater is not a healthy thing.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: It means that you're negatively impacting the quality of the waters that people downstream from you need as potable water or ideally perfectly serviceable water for other purposes.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: But that had been the norm for most, certainly northeastern cities, for a hundred years.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't until into the 20th century that we more actively tried to avoid having combined sewer systems and to try to separate those out.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: However, the infrastructure had been already set for most or most cities, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, New York City, even Washington, D.C., many of these has have still have major combined sewer systems.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: We have an opportunity to try, it takes a long time and a lot of money, to separate the systems so that you you can get into a uh municipal the MS-4 always messes with municipal sewer, separate sewer system.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think so, yeah.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is the MS-4 to be able to separate from a combined system into a separated MS-4 system.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: And uh it it will just take a long life, long time to do that.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one of the reasons why we are subject to a consent decree, because we have a in the neighborhood of 65 combined sewer overflows over the course of a year over five different CSOs or combined sewer outflows, which are the locations where those combined sewer systems exit into the river.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to be able to manage those.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the EPA has imposed upon us a consent decree, which frankly I look at as a tremendous opportunity for us to make major inroads in cleaning the water and the Conestoga.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you will, um even as recently as 30, 40, 50 years ago, people would swim in the river.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: It may not have been a wise thing to do, but it was uh but it was something that was was common.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: And what we want to do is be able to return the river to a clean state at some point in a foreseeable future.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Clean Water Partners, of course, describes it as clean and clear by 2040, which interestingly and happily seems to coincide with the timeframe of our consent decree.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: We had a 25-year horizon which would end at approximately 2040 if we are successful.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, based on the work that we're doing right now trying to develop the long-term control plan or LTCP for that program, we are in line with making huge reductions in the numbers of CSOs and the numbers of events that would be imposing themselves on the river.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Aaron Powell Wow.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: There's a whole lot in there.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I have many more questions.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: That was intentional that we that we did 2040?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was intentional that we aligned 2040 with places 2040, the county comprehensive plan.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know the horizon date for the consent decree, though.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that, yes, that needs to be part of our storytelling because I think it would the the horizon date was not set in you know, they weren't set consistent with each other.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: The consent decree was just usually you have a 20 to 25 year window, which was starting to be imposed in the late 20 teens.
• 17:23
  unknown: Okay.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: It just seems to coincide.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So with the CSO and the consent decree, are there other places like you were saying, many places across the country were built that way.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Do those systems still exist?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then what are some of the examples?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're saying it takes a lot of time and money, but it's doable and it is already happening.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you're you referenced your time in Washington, D.C., and I've seen pieces of that, of what they're doing to make that separation or to deal with the uh growing number of gallons in a CSO.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So what are some of the things that that you've seen are happening and that are p potential here?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell For many of these municipalities, because the so much of the infrastructure has already been built, there are limited options.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be able to screen whatever water is coming into the system before it gets to either the water treatment plant or or the wastewater treatment plant or before it gets to the river itself.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's often retention basins or large retention tanks built under usually built underground to hold excess water as it comes down from stormwater, et cetera, until it can get down to a level where it can be managed by the system, or you uh try to do a lot of infiltration or a lot of filtering of the water before it gets to to the to the streams that it will otherwise affect.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: In the city of Lancaster, we are subject to the consent decree because the five CSOs are within the City of Lancaster.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: If these CSOs were elsewhere, then they might have been the subject of other municipalities.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Most of that from Manheim Township.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we are not in control of managing the Manheim Township water except to the extent that it crosses the line into Lancaster and exits out of what we call our north CSO, very close to the Manheim Township uh border.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: The other three uh CSOs combined are approximately 17 percent.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And to the extent that we can either drastically reduce them or eliminate them, we would have a longer stretch of the river that would be uh not negatively impacted by CSOs by the overflows during storm events.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So part of our focus is how do we reduce drastically or even eliminate those CSOs and drastically reduce the number of CSO events in the north and the Engleside uh sewer sheds.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that we think may be interesting, which is what we task our community-based steering committee on for the consent decree, is to what extent can we make more useful use or recreational use of the Conestoga, either between those events or even during those events?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So a few years ago we actually had put up some indicators at each of the CSOs that flash red lights when it's there's a combined sewer water event, overflow event at that particular outflow, warning people do not get into the water.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Generally speaking, most people know that it's not safe to be in the water anyway.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: However, it's especially not safe when you have a a sewer, a combined sewer and stormwater event, because that's when the sewage goes directly into the water.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: So to the extent that we can eliminate the three smaller ones, since dilution is the solution to pollution, as many often say, when you're when you're about a quarter to a half mile south of any of these CSOs, you're back down to what are considered not unacceptable levels.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say that they're safe levels, but you're not at any worse level than you might have been before the the storm.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Event.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: So by being able to reduce or eliminate those three in between, we have a longer stretch along the river, the recreational parts of the river, where people could use the river during or after a storm event.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So the flashing red lights and the ways of sharing that information, those I'm hearing you say are ways that you engage the public and share educational information.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: You guys were part of the City Comprehensive Plan and the Conestroga River Reimagined.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the River Connections Project.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us a little bit more about how that works and if it is included in the, I guess, the scope of the neighborhood engagement team.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: How does the city government team work to engage the community with some of those examples?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is one of our most not only momentous but almost miraculous transformations as far as I'm concerned.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: The City of Lancaster has built a reputation for being a place of engaging communities and citizens as much as possible, not only in some of the decision-making processes, but into how we make decisions and plans for the future.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the comprehensive plan process, which took the better part of two years, had countless community meetings and opportunities for people to give input, et cetera.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: We realized in the early phases of addressing this, the consent decree, we realized early on that we need to raise the consciousness of the people of the value of the river.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we also realized that there were a lot of people, many, many times people of color, who were part of using the river in their own histories, in their own immediate histories.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: We started at one of a Juneteenth event, as a matter of fact, just starting to talk to people about what their experiences of the river was, and we found people coming out of the woodwork wanting to tell about their stories.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that allowed us to craft a program which we actually applied to Clean Water Partners for to get funding to do what we call river connections, being able to tell the stories of people who have experiences with the river in their childhood, positive or negative, so that people understand that the river is not just this background element that might be interesting in folk folklore, but this is part of people's everyday experience and potential everyday future experience of living in the county of Lancaster.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's tremendously successful.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: We've gone into a second phase of it, and we use that as one of our cores for education and for making people more aware of what the impact to the river is.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's impact in terms of the agricultural lands that are that surround the city of Lancaster, as well as the urban impact for people who live in the city.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: The memories were wonderful.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: People were had such fond memories of being able to jump in, even if they knew that it was polluted, just as you as you might know as a kid, jumping into a river when you're young is such a fun thing to do.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: It just brought up all the great memories and it cements in people's minds.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is a resource I don't want to let go of.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that's very important, not just to me, to my kids, to my friends, to my neighbors, to the other people whom I share the county of Lancaster with.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: So for us, that's an incredible piece of it.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: It then got tied to the comprehensive planning efforts, so that there were other stories that were being told in order to craft the comprehensive plan.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Our Department of Neighborhood engagement, led by Milzy Carrasco, is at the forefront of managing how we do this engagement with communities and how we make people aware of the value of water, the value of street cleaning, for instance, related to one of our nine minimum controls to keep effluent and debris from entering the river in the first place.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is why we're cleaning the streets, not to collect people's parking dollars, et cetera.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: So these are the kinds of things, and trying to get people educated as to why we do things, what we do, and how we do them is very, very important.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're also happily partnered with the School District of Lancaster, SDOL, and using much of the McCaskey campus, for instance, for much of the uh wetland management and stormwater management to prevent and reduce the amount of water that goes into those outflows, especially the north outflow.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: We are working with a couple of the other schools uh in their STEM programs, and we are very happy that um Lauren Beal has just joined the board of uh clean water partners so that she's a STEM expert, being able to help it hopefully will be able to connect us to the education programs of the school systems at all levels so that people are much more aware.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: As you know, if your child comes home from school saying, Mom and dad, this is what you have to do in terms of you know in order to keep the earth clean, you're gonna do it because they're adamant.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: The recycling campaign.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we're very excited about the prospects for this for connecting with STEM programs, et cetera.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: We've always always been connected with uh FM University, with Millersville.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: They've they and their students and their research efforts have always been very helpful to our to many of our other efforts as well.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Ross Powell And I'm not gonna buzz FM if if you know you know.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Franklin and March.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Not conservation related, so well, directly anyway.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's so fascinating.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just the way that you all have made it a natural fit for the people of Lancaster, for the processes that the teams use and making the connections with the school districts and the the on-the-ground tangible ways that people can get engaged.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's definitely made a difference.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: I have heard it from partner organizations, I've seen it from the amazing work that Milsey and her team do, and ways that we can learn from each other, but also continue to acknowledge the leadership role that Lancaster City has in this work.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: It it's incredible.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And another thing that it we have discovered, which is exciting, I think is very, very exciting.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Many of the kids of color and the younger young people of color are very, very involved in this.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: A gentleman named Dominique Jordan, for instance, who is a rapper, has been one of the community leaders in the variety of cleanup sessions and in making sure that people understand not just what we're doing, but why we're doing it, how we're doing it.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he's been quite a uh a leader.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Another gentleman who is now on radio at NPR in in Harrisburg, Marquis Slupton, is also one of our leaders in this regard.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: I remember um Sir Dominique Jordan's comments about the drone shots above the Conestoga.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was so perfect when that video was released.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was that during Water Week?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it was.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the drone shots that that uh that Allison is talking about are it we did a a multimedia presentation not only of the early parts of the river connections, but of some of the image and the the idea of this being a natural resource that wends its way through the city of Lancaster, but when you're on the river, you don't even recognize that you're in an urban setting.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's magical.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Having kayaked down the river several times now, I'm very happy to uh to have those kinds of experiences and make them more available to others.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about the CSO and kind of the public engagement.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: How does that align with, but I know it's separate for green infrastructure.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Again, the the city has been such a leader and award-winning for its green infrastructure program.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: But my understanding, maybe correct me if I'm wrong here, I need to continue to learn, is how those two are kind of treated separately.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, happily we no longer treat them separately.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: We became a leader.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: My predecessor, uh Charlotte Katzenmoyer, had initiated a program of green infrastructure throughout the city of Lancaster that was tremendously successful and uh became uh revered by many other similar-sized municipalities.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was thought of as a value in and of itself, but it also manages a lot of the stormwater, et cetera, et cetera.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: As I when I arrived and we discovered that uh green infrastructure was not necessarily being considered by EPA for the towards the consent decree, we looked into it a little bit more and found that part of the reason was that it had not necessarily, to EPA's satisfaction, recognized the volume and the nutrient load.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so by being able to give value to how it manages volume and nutrient load, we were able to get it incorporated as part of our consent decree long-term control plan that is being evolved.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: So now, as far as we are concerned, stormwater management in all of its forms, including uh urban tree canopy, rain gardens, four bays, et cetera, is all part of managing the stormwater in the variety of sewer sheds that we that are affected by by the environment here in Lancaster.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's an integral part we of how we have upped our game in terms of operations and maintenance, making sure that we have appropriate equipment.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: We have found, as an example, with our Triverus vacuum machine that where we had green infrastructure that percolated water over a period of anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes after the triverus went over it, that could be percolated within a matter of two to three minutes.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So suddenly, not only could we have our green infrastructure perform at their design levels, we can measure its performance and measure its impact on managing the stormwater.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love the walking tours and the self-guided pieces, the tools that you all have made possible for the public to engage and try to understand this because there's a technical element to it, but there's an everyday life piece, like you said, of how this has to integrate seamlessly into our normal existence.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I do not profess to be an expert in any of these kinds of things.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have engineers and stormwater experts who work in the Department of Public Works and work with the consultants who work with us as well.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: But to your point, the the walking tours, the bicycling tours, the efforts on the websites, the river connections, the variety of places that we can make this of information available, is part of not only educating the public, but it's filling a sense of pride.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think they can and should and have every right to be proud of the work that is being done.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Green infrastructure, as an example, is one of the least expensive ways of managing the stormwater that comes in.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you deal with gray infrastructure, which is largely concrete or built structures to manage the infrastructure, it has a limited shelf life, it has uh a lot of operations and maintenance concerns, and it often does not necessarily operate as as intended.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um you might do a huge financial investment in gray infrastructure and find that it does part of what you want.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: It may be measurable, but it's still only only limited.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: With green infrastructure, it's constantly growing, it's constantly evolving.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: If we measure the effectiveness of trees that are 15 and 20 years old, and those trees have a you uh have a likely remaining life of another 40 to 60 years, they increase their effectiveness over time.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so our tree city of Lancaster becomes a laboratory for green infrastructure and stormwater management.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: So all of these are the kinds of things that we want the people to be aware of.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: They don't need to know the science in detail, but to be able to know that by participating in a green infrastructure in the in the rain gardens maintenance, by helping keep the storm storm grates clear, by uh supporting the tree canopy, uh, et cetera, they're also contributing to the solutions related to stormwater management.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: So cool.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: So cool.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: How can we, as Lancaster Clean Water Partners, as Cleanwater Conversations, as conservationists individually, how can we do a better job of telling the clean water story?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I love working with Cleanwater Partners because I think we're already doing a very good job of telling the story.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: However, having you you having phrased it in the way you did, there's often the misconceptions about who is more responsible for the deleterious nature of the Conestoga River.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Many within the city believe that it's much of the agricultural concerns and their contributions to the river.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And many in rural settings or agricultural settings say that it's the city.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Not only are we both culprits, we're also all part of the solution.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of good things going on.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to tell much more of the story of how these operate as systems, that they're integrated and that we are, as an example, the city of Lancaster puts cleaner water back into the river than it takes out for its for its water treatment, as well as uh from our from its wastewater treatment plant.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um we we just learned some good news about uh uh the upgrade of one small stretch just south of the river uh for aquatic life, uh, in large part, I would dare say, due to the variety of practices that the city and its environment, environs take take uh regarding uh the quality of water in the river.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: But education, getting people to think as second nature, part of why I live in Lancaster is it's a healthy place, it's a place where people are concerned about clean water and about the environment and about how to make their their life situation better and how that's integrated, rural and urban, how that's an integrated process, not one doing it instead of or in spite of the other.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: You've talked about the way that we function like a system and we have to be more integrated.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: We've we've sort of tried to take that approach with the collaborative network that we have in Lancaster.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And leaders like yourself and others on our Board of Trustees really are able in an incredible way to function and think at that strategic level all the time.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm always so impressed.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you think that that kind of leadership role is important and of required element for success?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you said it as a required element for success.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because I do think that every member of that collaborative network is part of the solution and needs to be not only recognized for the part that they play, however small or however large or however disconnected it might seem, it is all part of how we do the right thing for the right reasons for the right people.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think being aware of and giving value to what each of these individual organizations does, how they are interconnected with others that are doing similar things or complementary things, or how they are countering the efforts of those who are not necessarily as concerned as we might be as advocates, countering the efforts of others to make a better solution anyway.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: We're I hate to say it in this way, but I think it's true, many of the advocates are altruistic.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: They're not necessarily doing it for the credit, but by giving them credit and giving them value to what they do and how they do it, it elevates everybody.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: What is the term of raised raise all ships?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Raised water raises all ships.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think of each of those elements in the collective network as extremely valuable to telling the story, to making the work work.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if they recognize, if they are able to recognize it, not necessarily to be proud of it, but to to know that they are of value, that it is a valued aspect of what they do.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we are now moving on to our next segment, which is conservation, lightning round trouble.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: You'll be okay.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: You'll be all right.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: We'll we'll uh Well, Earth Day is coming up, but I'm not gonna say when it's coming up because it's actually one of the questions.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna do some questions about it.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: I am going to put 30 seconds on the clock.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: Answer as many of them as you can.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um if you get the answer before I finish, just go ahead and interrupt me.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: So here we go.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: So of course, what day on the calendar is Earth Day?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: I want to say April 27th.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: So close.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: So close.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: April 26th.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's April 22nd.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna ignore the clock now, by the way.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: The founder of Earth Day is a senator from which state.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Not on the East Coast, by the way.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'll say California.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's Wisconsin.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't have gotten that one either.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: Earth Day's date was chosen because it falls between which two events on college campuses, bearing in mind that it's April 22nd.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine that it's spring break and graduation.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: Final exams?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: That we'll take that.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: What year was the first Earth Day?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to dare say 1970.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: You are absolutely correct.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: The first Earth Day eventually led to the creation of which government agency?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Environmental protection.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I was half expecting you to use the use the acronym there.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: How many, this is gonna be a tough one.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: How many college campuses participate on in the first Earth Day?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Go big.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'll go with 100.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Bigger.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: 1,500.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's fantastic.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: I know, isn't that great?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh in 2011.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: This is another tough one, I'll be honest with you.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: Another in 2011, 28 million trees were planted.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: In which country for Earth Day Plant Trees, Not Bombs campaign?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Syria or Lebanon.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: It was Afghanistan.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there you go.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's our trivia.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's our show.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't do too badly.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, but you did break.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Those were a lot of obscure facts.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Very obscure.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just a reminder uh Earth Day is on April 22nd.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Excuse me.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to thank you, Steve, um, for coming and talking with us.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: The stuff that you guys are doing in the city.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: And how it's complicated.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, but November.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: But it's a but it's a great story.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great victory that you know that we're uh getting the it was already said in the podcast.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're we're getting the MS4 stuff under control as you know as we can in the different ways of doing it.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh I feel educated.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And inspired because there's so much happening.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, it sort of goes under the radar, but it is also that quality of life, our our health, our community is so much stronger.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for what you're doing.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron Powell Well, thank you as well for the opportunity and thank you for having the Clean Water Partners be out there advocating as strongly as you are and becoming as strong as it is in this arena that's very, very necessary in making it uh relevant to everybody.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, we so appreciate you being part of that leadership team.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's wonderful.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yeah.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: We have been able to work with so many of your team members lately.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for their time, their leadership, the projects.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Ugh, it's amazing.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we will be back in a couple of weeks.com.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening.