Latest / Skin Anarchy / Explore the World of Cosmetic Formulation with Chemist Kelly Dobos

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Explore the World of Cosmetic Formulation with Chemist Kelly Dobos · Skin Anarchy

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is your host, Ekna, and I am super, super excited about our guest today because she is truly brilliant in the field of chemistry and everything that has to do with you know cosmetic chemistry, anything we want to learn about as consumers, you know, in the beauty space.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: I could not think of a more knowledgeable guest to have on to really educate us on this topic and do a deeper dive, you know, than we're really used to on a day-to-day basis.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Kelly Dobo.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: She is a consultant cosmetic chemist and adjunct professor of cosmetic science for both the University of Toledo and the University of Cincinnati.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: Kelly also has 25 years of expertise in developing both skincare and color cosmetic formulations.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: She's worked with notable companies like Bonnie Bell, Pirel, Cow USA.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: So lots and lots of experience.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to the show, Kelly.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so honored to host you.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for having me.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm really thrilled to have this opportunity to kind of, you know, like I said, pick your brain a little bit and learn from you because, you know, as you know, the beauty space is so vast and we see so many products.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: But unfortunately, a lot of all a lot of consumers, including myself, you know, we get stuck at that, you know, part where you're looking at the inky list and just trying to decipher, you know, what is this?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: And even with me, you know, I went to pre-med tech organic chemistry, but I some of these names still they just get me, you know, like what am I looking at kind of thing.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I know a lot of people feel that way, you know, where there's a lot of confusion.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I will, I would want to dive into that later, but I would love to learn more about you.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: If you could tell us about your your background and your education and just really what got you into chemistry.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, as a young adult and and even as a child, I was fascinated by the the kind of the natural world around me and always trying to understand how how things worked on a deeper level.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And when I got to college, I I really leaned towards studying chemistry because I liked understanding how how things worked on that molecular level and how you can translate into the way things behave around you, like the way that hydrogen bonding is responsible for the many unique properties of water and that how those are also the same properties that are you know driving the way humectants work in skincare.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, when I graduated, I didn't know there was such a thing as cosmetic chemistry.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think many of my contemporaries in the field didn't really know either.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just knew I wanted to keep working in the field.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I just applied for a position as a lab assistant to get started, you know, working because I really wanted to go back and get a master's degree at some point, but I figured I should gain some real world experience.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I really fell in love with developing products and understanding how these different chemicals would go together to create a finished product.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what really kind of hooked me in the cosmetic industry was that I was making products that really made people's lives better.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that's, you know, a really you know obvious example of something like a hand sanitizer where that material is is keeping people healthy, or a lipstick or lip gloss that you know a consumer might put on and they feel a little bolder to go out, you know, to end their day.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's you know, same thing for me.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I I know when I put on a red lip color, I feel a little bit bolder.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what cosmetics do is they they help improve people's lives in in many different ways.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I really liked being part of that process.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, after college, when I did start working in the field and just really fell in love with it, I also decided I wanted to be the best cosmetic chemist I could be.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: For me, that was, you know, first going back and getting my my master's in business.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I really wanted to understand on a a deeper level how my role in a company developing products would, you know, how I would be interacting with other groups, you know, just even thinking about supply chain and how my decisions would impact the, you know, the product development process and the accounting of a of a formula and how what it's going to cost marketing, you know, because that's a really important aspect of cosmetic products too.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: I could make a really great product, but marketing group is what's going to get that first sale.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: But the repeat purchase, I hope, is based on the, you know, the effort I've put into developing a truly great and efficacious product.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: So getting that business degree, I think, has been really essential to helping me be a better contributor all around in product development.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I then also um went to the University of Cincinnati.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: They have a master's degree program in cosmetic science.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: They have one of the oldest programs that I know of in cosmetic science and extremely well-rounded.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they made that program available to people who are already working in the field so that you can get your degree while you're working full-time, which is what I did.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that really gave me a much broader perspective on types of formulation as well as a real depth of knowledge and things like skin biology.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I combine these two degrees into the work that I do every day.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, I love that.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: And also go bear cats.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: We were talking very listening before I'm I'm a UC alum as well.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I I love the university, they have some really great programs, but that's good to know that, you know, it's good to know that you came into cosmetic chemistry the way you did, because I think when you take a route that's fueled by true, like just intrigue and just, you know, you're curious about something, it always leads to great things.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: I've always found that to be true, you know, with anyone I've spoken to in whatever industry it is.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we were talking earlier about your review in Nature that was recently published, you know, and it was very inspired of what you wrote.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I I really like that you come from this, you know, from this understanding, obviously, from the educational side, but also like you understand the the interaction that a consumer has, you know, with the products that we buy and why we buy them and what they really elicit for us, you know, as people.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that's something that I think the beauty industry, I mean, we talk a lot about things like regulations and whatnot, but we don't really get into like the psychology of that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's really it's it's huge.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So and I think there's there's a lot of things that you know the average consumer may not think about.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: We spend a lot of time looking at the chemistries of the ingredients, like emollients and how they create, you know, a particular uh feel when you rub them into the skin, something that could make a product feel more luxurious or a product that has a really quick rub-in because you you want that fast break of a formula.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of things in those, even those, you know, things that you might think of as just, you know, their aesthetics of the product, but we we spend a lot of time understanding how the chemistry of the ingredients translates into those qualities.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what some of the questions I do have for you are around these things because I won't lie to you, you know, a lot of the times, especially for example, I'm gonna give you like I think the classic example I've seen recently when it comes to, for example, texture in a formulation.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that whole snail mucin craze that was going on on TikTok for I don't know how many weeks that was, but people were obsessed, right?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like a lot of brands came out with these really thick, you know, like just glycerin-based products that were just, I guess, I don't know, supposed to mimic that product, you know, that was snail mucin or whatever.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess a big question I have is when it comes to making products that are, you know, appealing to the texture trends or whatever you want to call it, where somebody, you know, maybe group consumers are more gravitating towards like thicker form, you know, thicker formulations or something.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: What does that entail for the cosmetic chemists?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you have to change a whole formula around to be able to change like the consistency of it?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it really kind of, I mean, is that easy to do?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of times when we start a product development process, we have a kind of a product brief that'll describe to us what you want the product to feel like and look like.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really, you know, it takes a lot of experience to understand where to start because there are, you know, thousands of ingredients in cosmetics that we can use to create a particular product.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to the texture and the the viscosity or what we also refer to as the rology of a product, we have many ways to influence that as well.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to say the rology, the thickness of a product, um, but also how it shears.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I also want it to be thick, but maybe I want it to come out of a pump.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: So then I have to have what's called shear thinning viscosity in that product.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And we have we have different materials that are different types of polymers and they could be natural and they could be synthetic, or there are also clays like benton, bentonite and hectarite clays that we can use as well to create those different textures and feels.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can add on top of that, we've got fatty alcohols that'll make uh a cream or lotion or even a hair conditioner feel thicker and more substantial.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you've ever seen the word satirical alcohol on the on the label of a lotion or a hair conditioner, that really adds a lot of bulk to the product.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can use emollients, so different natural oils or silicones to create a different spreading on the skin.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you might want it to spread very slowly so it has a nice luxurious rub in, or you might want it to rub in really quickly for a product that you want to, you know, have something that's fast and easy to use, like if you're looking to do like some sort of spray lotion as opposed to a really thick cream.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's, you know, lots and lots of ingredients.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's, you know, for me, it's it's been, you know, this 25 years of experience in getting to work and try all these materials.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's something too that just takes time to build in the industry is is learning and and being on the bench and playing with the ingredients and playing it, you know, kind of just trying them in different scenarios and seeing how they work together.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I bet, and you know, I've always been curious about this because I think, you know, obviously in the skincare space, a lot of people talk about things like efficacy, you know, and does a product truly work?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Does it actually do what they want it to do?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: And many times things come up that I've I just wonder, you know, are these relevant things to even discuss when it comes to efficacy?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I want to ask you, you know, from a cause cosmetic chemistry standpoint, what have you seen to be the most determining factors in a formulation that do actually impact things, you know, in relation to results that consumers can expect?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it does does it matter in I guess what I'm saying, like the things like change of texture or you know, the these kind of things that we just discussed, does that really play in or is it just solely based on ingredients?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: And what are your opinions on that?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll start with the the when we're talking about a cosmetic formula, a skincare formula, for example, that base product is doing a lot of work.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the, and they're sometimes the least sexy ingredients, right?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: So things like glycerin or petrolatum or dimethicone, for example, they're not making big waves in the news like snail mucin or or bacuchiol, right?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: But these materials are really what are moisturizing the skin and bolstering the skin barrier, things like ceramides as well.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Those ingredients are make up a significant portion of the base, and they're really doing a lot of heavy lifting.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: But you do have ingredients that deliver efficacy, things like uh retinoids, niacinamide that are contributing benefits to the skin.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And these are well-studied ingredients, right?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you want to look for science-backed ingredients.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of times you'll see something that is, you know, trending, really, you know, making waves in the news, but lacks a lot of substantial scientific studies to show real efficacy.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for me as a scientist, I go and look for the studies and you know, confirmation of something works.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I know everyone wants to have the next big ingredient because that's differentiating in the marketplace.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, sometimes those tried and true ingredients, they're still the best, they're still the gold standard.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we are all looking for the next big ingredient, but to be honest, I don't think anyone has found it, you know.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I know that's why I asked you because I I feel like I see a lot of a lot of big claims, you know, with these like new extracts that people find.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, like, oh yeah, this is the 18th mushroom that we found that is going to change your life, you know, that kind of thing.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just it's really my curiosity is always piqued by, you know, when I see different variations of something that might be similar, but I notice my skin is reacting differently, you know, to like one type of formulation of maybe it has like the same five hero ingredients in it, right?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like for some reason, that one specific formula that I'm using, it's having a better impact on my skin, you know.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where I get curious is like, you know, what is the real answer to like efficacy claims, you know, with these and these formulations.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, I'm I understand that ingredients obviously they matter.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you named some really great ones, you know, niacinamide is I think one of my all-time favorite skincare ingredients because it does so much.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: But then again, there have been niacinamide products I've used that are like, you know, they don't do anything for me, like at all.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can't even utilize them on a daily basis.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where I'm I wonder is like, you know, the process of creating a formulation versus sourcing your ingredients, you know, which is more important kind of thing.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: The process of developing the the formula is so it's basically it's also a delivery system for that ingredient, right?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we have ways of enhancing, you know, the efficacy of ingredients by making sure it gets to where it needs to be in the skin.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that's not always easy to tell from the label.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we're trying to improve the the enhance the efficacy of the green the ingredients because we also need to ensure that they're stable.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of ingredients that have specific efficacy in the skin, they may not be so stable in the formulation.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Classic example is vitamin C, right?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, vitamin C, once you you know, take the crystalline material and dissolve it into water, it is extremely unstable.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So as cosmetic chemists, we're trying to figure out ways to, you know, not just put vitamin C in the formula, but ensure that it is last through the shelf life formula and that it gets to where it needs to within the skin.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And those things aren't always, you know, readily obvious from the from the label, I think, to a consumer, but a company might talk about, you know, the stability of their vitamin C or how they've delivered it, you know, if they are using maybe liposomes or or some other way to help deliver that ingredient.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: That I was gonna ask you about those too, because there's a lot of uh buzz around like exosomes, liposomes, you know, all of these delivery, you know, mechanisms that are coming out now, and I'm I'm on the fence, you know.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: The biologist and the physiologist and me is still kind of like looking at it side-eyed.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I I understand that we have to, you know, innovate and come up with new new ideas on how to get these things to where they need to go.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: But also uh I wanted to ask you because you brought this up, what is like truly like for us normal consumers, what do we really need to understand about the stability of formulations?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I know that you mentioned vitamin C, and that's a huge one.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think a lot of people kind of saw vitamin C's instability demonstrated, you know, oftentimes on on social media and and through posts, but like when we're considering the overall stability of any formulation that contains any form of active ingredient, any type of antioxidant, what do you think is like the true determinant, determining factor of that stability from a chemistry standpoint?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when we develop products, we do have a stability protocol that we we where we evaluate that product in accelerated, what we call accelerated stability conditions.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we're exposing the product to heat.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the the assumption there is if I go back to my my chemistry days, the the Iranius equation, that if I input heat into my reaction, it's going to accelerate that reaction.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we're stress testing the formulas in advance to uh look at the stability of those ingredients.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we typically target a two to three year shelf life for products because it can get really hard to try and extrapolate beyond beyond that when you're because you don't know how a consumer is going to store a product, right?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: We hope that everyone takes care of their products and and keeps them in a cool place.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And but we know that a lot of consumers keep them in their bathroom, which is humid and warm.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: But we look at also things like microbial degradation, because not only could the the ingredient itself, usually heat and light are two drivers of instability, but you can also have microbial degradation of a product.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to add preservatives of to the product as well, because many cosmetic ingredients are food for bacteria.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to ensure that those bacteria don't grow in a product and further degrade the ingredients.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're looking at multiple ways of protecting a product over the shelf life, and that also includes selecting the right packaging.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: If I have a very susceptible ingredient like vitamin C, I want to put it in an opaque package.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Ideally, I want to put it in a package maybe with an airless pump so that it's not going to be exposed to more oxygen and further oxidize.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: So there are all these different multiple touch points in formula development that we're looking at to preserve the efficacy of those ingredients.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that can also include throughout the stability testing for those ingredients to show that it is still there from the day we make the batch to the end of that stability test.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: That makes a lot of sense.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I figured there's a lot that goes into it.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I just, you know, wonder because, for example, like with shelf life, you know, I'm always curious like how long we should be, you know, utilizing the same serum or the same moisturizer.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know many of us out here, we don't, I mean, I don't know how many times I get through a you know, one thing of moisturizer.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: I usually switch things up pretty quickly.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I'll have something sitting on my shelf for you know a while and I'll come back to it later or something like that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: So does it matter?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, I know you mentioned the airless container for like, you know, something like vitamin C or but does it matter overall in a formulation, like if we open it and then we store it, you know, or can we wait the two to three years?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: So what I love, and it's it's not part of the United States, you know, regulatory environment, but in the European Union, they put something on the product called a period after opening date.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so if if a company uh sells their product globally, they typically still have it on US packaging as well, but it looks like a little jar with the lid open and it will have a you know a number in there, like 3M or 12M, you know, and that tells you how many months uh after opening that you should hold on to the package.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a really good, you know, if your your product does have that period after opening symbol on it to follow that because the that is, you know, based on whatever internal testing the the company has has done to prove out stability.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, especially anything you're using around the eye area too, you want to be really careful about, you know, continuing to hold on to a product too long because you know your your eye is a mucous membrane, it doesn't have you know the protective, you know, we've got our stratum corneum that's really impenetrable.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you On our bodies, but the eye is really a mucous membrane and it's really sensitive.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to be extremely careful with anything around the eye area.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: That makes a lot of sense.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've seen that little container looking symbol on a lot of these.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: I wish it was uh part of the the US, you know, regulations here, but I think it's global companies do use it on on packaging.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if you if you see it, it's a really great guide.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's I I like that thing too.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm I hope everyone's looking for it, you know, when you're shopping for products because that helps a lot.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: It does help.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: So no, I'm curious because I mean in terms of chemistry, like I think there's a lot of things that are up and coming.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you had mentioned a little bit, you know, hinted at, like, for example, liposomes.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: But what excites you the most on in the you know cosmetic chemistry realm right now?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what are things that are really, you know, cutting edge right now in terms of whether it's technology or an approach that you're excited to see in relation to beauty?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I'm most excited about is biotechnology being used to develop ingredients.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it really gets to some of the sustainability issues with ingredients that are of natural origin.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it also gets to ways to create more pure sources of these ingredients as well.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're not having to extract them and then purify them from uh, you know, a plant or something like that.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's really impressive the ingredients that they're they're creating through these processes where they they take microorganisms and they basically program them to make these ingredients.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, example of you know, some interesting things I've seen done are they looking at ways of creating colorants that have been you know historically sourced from the carmine that is is from the beetle.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've I've seen people looking to make similarly brilliant pigments derived from fungi.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's to me, there's such a benefit to being able to have a more sustainable source to some of these materials.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they're also looking to make materials that are really you know hard to extract from nature because you can only get very small quantities, making an ingredient extremely expensive and therefore hard to use in sufficient quantities in in some cosmetics.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you see sometimes if you see an ingredient that's really low on the ingredient statement, you have to question if it's in at an efficacious level.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, they're not always incredibly affordable.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if we can make these ingredients in a way that's more affordable and more sustainable, that's really impressive to me.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the technology is just it's fascinating.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that it sounds really cool.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: I like that you brought up the dyes because it's always been a huge pet peeve of mine when people have these like crazy artificial dyes, you know.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's just polluting our oceans at the end of the day.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's cool to see that we are coming up with more natural ways to figure this pigment situation out.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because I mean, that's I think that's it should be a given, you know, that should fall on the on the shoulders of a brand, that kind of responsibility, you know, when it comes to the sustainable aspect, because there's a lot of options out there, but if you're choosing to just be ignorant about it, you know, as a brand, I just I don't find that excusable as a consumer.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and colors are colors are a whole interesting area uh of cosmetic regulation that I could talk about for for hours is really fascinating.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think it's an area that is is ripe for innovation in the industry.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's definitely interesting, you know, to say the least, but I'm also I'm very curious about, you know, when you're so basically like when a brand is coming up with like, you know, say a formulation and they are saying, okay, I don't like this and I need to make it again.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: They call it iterations, right?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like different iterations.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean for the cosmetic chemists?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you have to start from scratch or do you just like like I mean, how long does that process take?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I've heard a lot of brands like boast about this, like, oh, we went through 60 iterations of this one formula.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just like, well, what does that mean?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Does that mean you changed one ingredient?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, does it mean you completely redid everything?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so what are your thoughts on that?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like when people make claims like this, you know, and or what does it really mean?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I think product development should go through through iterations because you know, to to nail it on the first try is is generally, you know, that would be really amazing.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, when we're trying to translate aesthetics into a formula, that can that can take time to, you know, because the way I talk about something and how something feels to me uh might be very different to to someone else.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we're we try to quantify all of these these things when we talk about a formula and we we try to calibrate ourselves in in ways that we can say, like, okay, this is you know, sticky or this is oily or this feels luxurious, you know, because what what does luxurious mean to you or or me?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that that can be, you know, sticky is a little bit easier.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you're often going to go through multiple iterations of a formula because also you might what we do when we develop formulas too is we don't just test it on ourselves, right?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm I'm gonna have a bias to my formula.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: I really love it, of course, but I want to give it to a group of target consumers and get their opinion.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: They might notice something that I didn't, right?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to get as many opinions on it as possible as we're working through the process and go through those iterations to work out some of those kinks.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're putting together 15, 30 different ingredients, something unexpected might happen.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we're always trying to, of course, work out, you know, in our recipe, for lack of a better word, as we develop the formula, we're trying to work out all of these factors at the beginning, but we're going to have to do some work to refine and you know, think about it as cooking, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you try a new recipe that you've never tried before, the first time you make it, even though you're trying to follow that recipe as as closely as possible, your spices might be like you might have a different type of curry than they use in their recipe, and it might come out a little bit different.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: So there's going to be some refinement that needs done.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you want to keep refining as much as possible uh to get to the ideal product.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, some it takes whatever it takes, right, to get to that end product.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I do see a lot of companies talking about how long they've spent on product development.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's really important in today's market as well, too, to spend that time as well as money on research and development, because there's a lot of dupe culture, right?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of copying formulas.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's if you're not, if you don't have a truly differentiated price, and well, or price, that's what I was thinking in my head there.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have a differentiated product, price might be your differentiator.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: You might be able to try to figure out a way to make it cheaper.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know that that's really where you want to always be competing, right?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you you need to spend the time and the effort on on the science to develop a truly differentiated and efficacious product.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I think that's something important to really think about when you're, you know, deciding to put together a project to develop a cosmetic.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you said that.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think that, you know, I've I've said it many times.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I say it every episode.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: I just anyone who's listening to all of our episodes is probably sick of me saying this, but I always say we have a lot of packaging in this industry, you know, and there's a lot of like people who are overcharging for packaging, I feel like, because when you look at a lot of formulations, and I I hinted at this earlier when we were we were talking, Kelly, and it was when I use a formula and it's pretty much the same, you know, and it's like I know it's the same because I looked into it, you know, like I know it's like you can call it a dupe or you can call it just, you know, another formula that's pretty much exactly like the other one.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: The only differentiating factor that I see between the$80 bottle and the$12 bottle is the packaging.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so it becomes really important, like you said.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the science has to come first.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the end of the day, when I think about skincare, I'm noticing more and more now, more than ever, I think, that the skincare consumer is becoming a lot more science, you know, literate in the sense of like people understand what these words mean.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: They understand what the, you know, the like we talked about ingredients before.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Ingredients are even just like claims.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're starting to really become educated around these topics.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so like now more than ever, I feel like science has to take the lead, you know, and to not put it at the you know, front and center of a brand, for me, it just doesn't seem I don't know, it seems abnormal to not do that, you know, especially with something like skin health.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think cosmetics, like beauty and like, you know, like color cosmetics is a different it's a different conversation, you know, when it comes to that.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: But especially with skincare, science has to be at the front and center because it's an organ.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're literally treating an organ at the end of the day.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm, you know, I could talk about this for hours.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, skin is is is the biggest, you know, largest organ in your body, and it it does so many things for us.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it really, you know, that really means you do need to to take time and take care of it.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: It, you know, it's our it's our barrier against the outside world and it it's it protects us from UV exposure, it protects us from you know, microorganisms getting in.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, it's just it makes vitamin D for us.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's just such an amazing, amazing biological system.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, one of the questions, it's a really big question, actually, and I want to get your opinion on this, is this idea.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we have a lot of terminologies, as you know, in the you know, beauty industry.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's clean beauty, there's natural beauty, organic beauty, you know, I don't know, homemade beauty, there's everything, you know.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I really always find myself at this juncture where I get can get behind a lot of the sentiments of clean beauty.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: I really can.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: And even like natural and organic, all these words, I can get behind the sentiment of consumers wanting things that are genuinely good for them.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if they put them on their skin, they know it's not gonna lead to some sort of like, you know, exposure to like chemicals that don't need to be on their skin, I guess.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I don't know how else to phrase that.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: But what are your thoughts around all of these words when it comes to the perspective of purely looking at it from a chemistry perspective?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, does it even matter if we label things like that?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Or I mean, is there value there from a scientific standpoint?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think unfortunately, you know, I think clean beauty came from a came from a good place, right?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like a place of concern about ingredients and product safety.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I think clean beauty has been, it's it's misguided and it's it's it's become, you know, a marketing kind of a marketing vehicle that is is meant to you know differentiate a product, one product is safer or another.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Same thing with natural, you know, and when I look at it from the perspective of a chemist, you know, I think any toxicologist would agree agree with me as well.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: We we go back to looking at the the ingredients and it's about how you're exposed to the ingredients and how much you're exposed to.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not, you know, I think clean beauty likes to put ingredients in terms of good and bad, and that's that's not necessarily the case.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, a good example are our preservatives.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Clean Beauty's kind of really uh hung on to some bad information about particular sets of preservatives, and then those preservatives have been removed from our list of materials that we can use as chemists because a lot of brands today want to formulate to these clean beauty standards.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: But those preservatives have a long history of safe use.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at, there's uh an organization called the Cosmetic Ingredient Review, and it is a panel of toxicologists, medical professionals, scientists that review all of the existing data about ingredients and their safety, and then they issue an opinion on it.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a similar organization in the European Union called the SCCS that will do a similar assessment of ingredients.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're a little broader in their reach, they cover all consumer products.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if you look at the opinions on particular preservatives from these groups, they will note that they're safe as currently used in cosmetics.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: However, then we have clean beauty lists that remove these from our toolbox of things we can use to prevent microbial contamination.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And microbial contamination is a serious concern for cosmetic products because you can, you know, not only can it, you know, impact the shelf life of the product and the integrity of the product, but it can cause, you know, it in compromised individuals can cause infections or specifically eye area infections.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to be able to preserve products to make those products safe for the consumer.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just, you know, that we, you know, just put preservatives in products because we want to increase their shelf life.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's also that it's a regulatory requirement.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: So the United States FDA requires that we put safe products on the market and that they not be contaminated with harmful microorganisms.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the same thing in every every country around the world.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: So preservatives are an important part of cosmetic formulation.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I think Clean Beauty has really unfortunately done a disservice in putting more products out there that maybe aren't adequately preserved.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you can see this with the number of recalls for microbial contamination that the FDA publishes.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's a really good point.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And speaking of preservatives, I was going to ask you, you know, what are some of I think the most tried and true preservatives that you think are out there right now, you know, in the cosmetic space that you think we should look for on ingredient lists, you know, and feel safe about.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: These need to be converted into their acid form.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: So benzoic acid and sorbic acid in formulation.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that requires that these products be low pH.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: So this method doesn't work for all types of products.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: They need to probably be somewhere around pH 4 or less for these types of preservatives to be really effective.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Phenoxyethanol is another common one that you see today that is quite effective, but it also brings along with it it smells a little bit like roses.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: So again, might not be ideal for every type of product.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, we we still have some preservative, what we call um adjuncts that we use in formulas.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: And these are, they themselves are not exactly preservatives.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they're not, you know, on their own.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: They don't work so well, but they are they're keelants that are helping take out some of not only some of the metal ions that might give give you like soap scum for in hard water, but they're also chelating some of the uh metal ions that might be in a bacterial membrane to help the preservative work better.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: So things like you'll see EDTA on the label.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I've I know what you mean.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: That that makes sense.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'm sad to see that they've like demonized so many of them, you know, because like honestly, at the end of the day, like I know we talk a lot about you know, skincare stays on your face or your body, and it it like a lot of people will say things like, yeah, you know, it seeps into your bloodstream.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, you know how long it takes for that to happen?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like you know, and and I think, you know, if you're uh you know, in the field of cosmetic chemists, we know that getting an ingredient to penetrate can be really hard because that's you know, we're we're often trying to figure out how we can make our products more efficacious by getting particular ingredients to where they need to be in the skin.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that it the skin is a really great barrier, it's not that easy to penetrate.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've had products before that clean, they claim to be clean and there's literally mold or like some sort of like you know, some sort of growth in them as soon as I'm like I open them or within a week or so, and I'm just like, this is more harmful.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: Not only am I not gonna put this on my skin, but just to have it in my house and you know, deal with like inhaling spores and like, you know, there's so many things that go along with that.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: If you have overgrowth of a microorganism in a formula that's or you know, in anything that's supposed to help it grow, like you're harming yourself in multiple ways.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's now you're you need to worry about many organ systems, not just your skin.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's it's kind of like it always baffles me too, because I feel like for some reason the beauty space, as advanced as we are, in the sense of like we want the best technologies, we want to keep pushing forward.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of like regressive type of thinking that I see here.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's like it to me, it doesn't make sense that someone made a lipstick in their kitchen and you're not putting that on the one of the most sensitive areas of your like the skin, you know, your face.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like your lips are very, very, you know, the skin is very thin on your lips.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: And now you're putting something on there that is not really tested for things like microbial overgrowth or even just the concentrations of what was put in there, you know, to create the color or the the you know, the feel of the lipstick or whatever.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that really worries me that consumers buy into that kind of stuff because it's it doesn't make sense, you know.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like what what are you doing?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I think we've we've come a long way in terms of you know, society and and development of of these consumer products.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I've seen videos of people on uh TikTok making homemade sunscreen, or you know, and we we now know how complicated it is to make a good sunscreen, and you know, it is even a you know, it's a challenge to get the you know, titanium dioxide or zinc oxide dispersed into a sunscreen product.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: You really want to have it very evenly distributed so that when you put it on the skin, you're getting an even layer of of the material to protect you.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: And just to think, you know, you you can't do that in your kitchen with a a a whisk.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: We use have we have special, you know, homogenizers and dispersers and and mills that we use to get these, you know, products to work effectively.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's you know, you're you're putting your your safety at risk, and you can simply instead go to the store and and buy a product that someone has put together and tested to ensure that it provides the right level of SPF for you.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, and not to mention it'll be cheaper.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Buying like whatever ingredients you're buying at, you know, to make it at home, it'll probably be cheaper.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, as a in the industry, we also have very thorough quality control and quality assurance methods, right?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Every ingredient has its own specifications that we check to make sure that ingredient is acceptable for use before we use it.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you're buying cosmetic ingredients from some online store, they're not giving you those specifications.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're not, you know, you're and you're certainly not testing to ensure that those ingredients meet those specifications.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really creating a situation where you could be making something that's, you know, just not an effective product.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, leave the chemistry to the chemists who put it together for you.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't agree more.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that's that's such an important, you know, take-home message is that, you know, you have to trust the scientists.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: It takes a long time to train for any science degree.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it takes a lot of like knowledge.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so people need to trust that.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: At the end of the day, I mean, I get it, everybody wants to make it themselves, DIY, you know, cool, but can't do that with things that are like like genuinely sophisticated sciences involved, you know, like lab, like bench research is involved in making these products, you know, like it's you can't do that at home.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you just can't.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's not, it's not like a dig at anybody, you know, for saying that.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's just what it is.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: And especially it's interesting you brought up SPF because, you know, if you're if you're making SPF at home, first of all, the first thing I think people need to understand, there's not there's no not only quality control, but you're not even you don't even have an SPF, like a number to put on there.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: You don't like there's no way to tell if this actually protects your skin as a filter, you know, it just doesn't make sense.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so I don't even understand the logic of that.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't make any sense to me.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, you could be you you don't know exactly what you're buying, right?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like me as a cosmetic chemist, I get a certificate of analysis with my material.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: I can test it to prove that it is because every company has a quality group that is testing the materials to ensure that they are what they say they are.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: You you get a you know, a bag of white powder from some online, you know, store.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know that it is a hundred percent for sure zinc oxide?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's you know, that to me, you know, how you that's a lot of faith in the person selling you the material to.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: We chemists and and manufacturers and industry are going to test that material because you'd love to take everyone's word for it, but we need to to prove it and ensure.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's part of quality regulations that you know that are coming into force with the new MOCRA, the modernization of cosmetic regulation act in the United States.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: Cosmetic companies aren't going to need to have good manufacturing practices, similar, you know, they're they're not going to be as stringent as drug GMPs, but those good manufacturing practices are coming for the FDA, for the FDA here in the United States for cosmetics.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I know, and I'm I'm excited to see that actually because it's me too.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's time, it's time we have regulation, you know, because this is it's impacting a lot of people and including the youth now.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it I'm I'm happy to see that the US is taking a leap forward in this because I mean the EU has been leaps and bounds ahead of us, you know, for a long time.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: And the same with a lot of places, but for some reason, I mean, I I think consumers, US consumers, from what I've noticed at least, I mean, they like to have that control, you know, of like feeling like they're in control.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I understand that sentiment.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: I really do think we all have a part of that in us, but at the end of the day, like when it comes to something you're putting on your body or you're using for any medical purposes or even therapeutic purposes, you need to have real like evidence behind that, you know, like why it works, if it works, you know, all of that kind of stuff.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that you have to leave it up to the people who know what they're doing, you know.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's always my message on this podcast is look for follow the science, you know, it'll take you to the right place.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually you'll get to where you need to get to.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: But great.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: But no, Kelly, this has been so, so informative, and it's so cool to talk to you because, you know, like I said, I never get to get the true viewpoint of you know, uh a really, really great chemist.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I I appreciate all the wonderful advice and the insights you've given us.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: And before we go, though, I would love for you to offer some career guidance, if you wouldn't mind, you know, some words of wisdom for anyone aspiring to go into chemistry, especially cosmetic chemistry, or even somebody who's start looking to start a brand, you know, any any advice you could offer.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think you, you know, really get a good foundation in the science.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, for me, that was, you know, really getting into the the core basic chemistry.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think I mentioned earlier, like hydrogen bonding, you know, acid-based reactions, you know, understanding those core chemistry concepts are so important to what you do as a chemist.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, you can you can be a formulator and you can follow a recipe, right?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're a chemist who's really invested the time to understand the interplay of ingredients and how they work together and how to put together a formula, you can riff on those ingredients and create your own recipes like a chef, you know.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you're you're creating new experiences that maybe haven't existed before.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think really getting a good foundation in in the science is important, those core concepts.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's so many courses available today to not only, you know, chemists who are in college studying, they want to learn more about cosmetics because it's certainly become, I think, a more recognizable industry.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that to me is is wonderful because when I came up in the industry, I didn't know about this field.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it was still a very male-dominated industry as far as chemistry goes.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's probably a whole other discussion about how what a struggle it was to be taken seriously as a chemist, a young female chemist.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you know, there's a lot of educational opportunities out there for even consumers today.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh I think it was Dr.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: Ngamble put together a collaboration with Coursera on a cosmetic ingredients and product development courses that are available widely.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's so many opportunities to to get some education and and understand some of the core science behind cosmetics that that can be really helpful for you know young people wanting to become a cosmetic chemist or brands and and marketers who want to really understand a little bit more about cosmetic science.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, that that makes sense.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think that education is where it starts.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that's great advice.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for anyone listening, if you have any questions at all, if there's any information you want to learn about getting into cosmetic chemistry or even just learn in general, please shoot us an email.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: We can definitely see if we can grab Kelly again for a part two and maybe address some of your questions if she has time.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: But Kelly, thank you so much.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's been such an honor to host you and to learn from you today.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really enjoyed talking with you and hope it's been informative for all your listeners.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 52:01
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