Latest / Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger / Antisemitism Left and Right (and All Mixed Up)

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Antisemitism Left and Right (and All Mixed Up) · Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone and welcome to Q&A.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jay Nordlinger and our guest today is David Frum, the writer.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: What does he write?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Books and articles about history, politics, culture, and so on.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: He's almost the definition of a generalist.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: He works for the Atlantic and hosts the David Frum Show.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: He can be found at davidfrum.com.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning, David.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Nice to see you.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hello.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking at great distances.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: You're in Berlin?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm in Asheville, North Carolina.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a lot of trajectory.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: We're both away from home.
• 0:41
  And we have a serious topic for today,
• 0:44
  but I want to mention something else.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's serious in its own way.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry about the Blue Jays and the World Series.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think Toronto was your hometown.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: The town you grew up in.
• 0:55
  Yeah.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, yes, no, it was, it was a great blow to things Canadian.
• 0:59
  Um,
• 1:00
  and,
• 1:00
  uh,
• 1:01
  uh,
• 1:02
  I think,
• 1:03
  I don't know that the real blue Jays fans will ever be over it.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: My son,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: who's a much more serious baseball fan pointed out that,
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: they had many opportunities to close the deal and they didn't quite.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: And, uh, I don't know that he will ever quite get over that.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: I, I can relate as a Detroit tiger and so on, uh, lion piston.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can relate.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: David, we're going to talk today mainly about antisemitism.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: First, what a strange word, right?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of a pseudoscientific word.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in Berlin here.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: I like the old Judenhaus.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Hatred of Jews serves better somehow.
• 1:44
  Well,
• 1:45
  yeah,
• 1:46
  it's a strange word,
• 1:46
  but it's a useful word for our present moment.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because antisemitism came into use in the late 19th century.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: in Germany, in German-speaking languages, I should say.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think the writer,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: I can't forget now whether he was Austrian or German,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: but he was a German speaker.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: And what he wanted to do was to distinguish.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I do not hate Jews.
• 2:09
  I am not like those old-fashioned Catholics who hated Judaism
• 2:15
  and had a...
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: I have no problem with the Jewish religion.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: My problem is that these people are biologically defective.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's not their religion.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not an obscurantist.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not Martin Luther.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not an old papist.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: I have none of those old-fashioned ideas.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: This is modern and scientific.
• 2:33
  I'm objecting them not because they are Jews,
• 2:35
  but because they are Semites.
• 2:37
  And so I think in a day,
• 2:40
  it's very pertinent to today because today people...
• 2:43
  find it distasteful to say they're an anti-Semite in exactly
• 2:46
  the same way that the
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: author of that word said he thought,
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: found it distasteful to say he was anti-Jewish.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: They want a new thing.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: They've got a new reason.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same disease, but it's always got a new reason.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So anti-Semitism is to anti-Judaism as anti-Zionism is to anti-Semitism,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: a new euphemism for an old thing.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, David, I was interested in something you wrote, which I will quote,
• 3:11
  Republicans are having a big public argument about the
• 3:14
  antisemitism that has
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: contaminated their party.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Democrats aren't.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: And a follow-up comment from you.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Their antisemites are vile neo-Nazis.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Our antisemites bring exciting new energy to our party.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that was very pointed.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Elaborate if you like.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So the background here is...
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Over the past half decade,
• 3:46
  Tucker Carlson has become probably the single most influential
• 3:49
  conservative voice
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: out there,
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: or right-wing voice.
• 3:53
  So influential that it was his say-so that largely drove Donald
• 3:57
  Trump's decision to make J.D.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Vance, a close friend of Tucker Carlson's, his vice presidential nominee.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: There had been many more logical choices for candidate Trump than J.D.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Vance.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Vance was from Ohio.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: He was a safe Republican state.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't have a big national constituency,
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  but he was very important to a small faction of people in the
• 4:20
  technology world and
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Tucker Carlson,
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: and they pressed him.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that was Tucker Carlson's enormous influence.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time,
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: before and after,
• 4:30
  Tucker Carlson moved from his early enthusiasm for the Russian
• 4:35
  state and Vladimir
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Putin to ever more explicit obsession with Jews and Judaism.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 4:45
  which expressed itself mostly through using his enormously
• 4:49
  influential podcast to
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: platform more and more wild voices.
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  SPEAKER_02: A man named Daryl Cooper,
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: who presents himself as a kind of historian,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: although he's not a historian.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: He just reads books about history and chats about them.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: He's never worked in an archive, as far as I can tell.
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  And who has revisionist views about World War II that make the
• 5:08
  Germans the real
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: victims,
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: not the villains.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And most recently, Nick Fuentes.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: This,
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: who is,
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: a podcaster,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: or I guess a streamer,
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: who's had a lot of influence,
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: has a big audience among young unattached men,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: and who,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: has these extraordinarily aggressive positions about Jews and Jewry.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: In his case, it's quite explicit.
• 5:32
  He even uses the old-fashioned word Jewry,
• 5:34
  which is a blast from the past.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: This
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: triggered an enormous upset in the Republican world,
• 5:41
  especially after the president of the Heritage Foundation gave
• 5:44
  a video comment in
• 5:46
  which he said he would not separate himself from Carlson and
• 5:49
  thought nothing good
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: would be done by condemning people like Fuentes.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: So this triggered a big Republican debate.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that debate is about many issues.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's not least about the 2028 presidential nomination.
• 6:01
  because Tucker Carlson was responsible more than any other
• 6:05
  person for getting J.D.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Vance on the Republican ticket.
• 6:08
  And Vance has been very careful about remaining on good terms
• 6:11
  with Carlson at a
• 6:13
  time when other possible Republican candidates like Ted Cruz
• 6:16
  and Marco Rubio have
• 6:17
  been much more explicit about their support for Israel and
• 6:20
  their friendship to Jews
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: within the Republican Party and in the United States and in the world.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, on the Democratic side,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: You've seen the extraordinary rise of a candidate called Zoran Mamdani,
• 6:30
  who emerged from being a state assemblyman with a few single
• 6:34
  digits of support in
• 6:36
  the race for Democratic nominee to be mayor of New York to
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  being a blowout success
• 6:42
  in the Democratic primary and then a substantial success in the
• 6:44
  New York general
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: election and is now on his way to be mayor,
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: mayor-elect.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Mamdani has trafficked in all kinds of extreme anti-Israel rhetoric.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: He made a rap video celebrating people who fundraise for Hamas.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and he's backed by people who go even farther than that.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: and my,
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  SPEAKER_02: I just was struck by the,
• 7:03
  not only is there a contrast between the uproar over Carlson
• 7:06
  and Fuentes on the one
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  SPEAKER_02: hand,
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  SPEAKER_02: And the lack of and the acclaim for Zoran Mamdani on the other.
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  SPEAKER_02: And second,
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  SPEAKER_02: even more,
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  SPEAKER_02: that many people in the democratic world are eager to welcome him,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Mamdani,
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  SPEAKER_02: as a harbinger of all kinds of exciting new energies.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's the phrase that is usually used.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And without thinking very hard,
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: OK,
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: what exactly are these new energies that Mamdani is harnessing?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And when you look at some of his,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: his most notable fans,
• 7:35
  you find people who go as far in their direction as Nick
• 7:38
  Fuentes goes in his with
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: Tucker Carlson and the Heritage Foundation.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: David, do you recall what Jesse Jackson once called New York City?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Heimitown.
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  It's remarkable that this fellow,
• 7:52
  Momdana,
• 7:52
  should have become mayor of New York.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it's not so Heimitown after all?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: I had a joke that,
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: this is a kind of joke within a joke,
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: but there was a famous writer of the 1950s and 60s called Leo Rostum,
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: and his bestselling book was The Joy of Yiddish,
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: and he was an expert on the interplay between Yiddish and English.
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  SPEAKER_02: And he invented a character called Hyman Kaplan,
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: who was an immigrant to the United States,
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  SPEAKER_02: who was trying to master English in the early part of the 20th century.
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  SPEAKER_02: And he was always engaged in malapropisms,
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: but the kind of humor where he makes a mistake,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: but the mistake reveals a larger truth.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: And one of Hyman Kaplan's signature phrases was he would say,
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: only in America,
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: about things that obviously did not happen in America.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I cited and said,
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: in the 21st century,
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: have a Jewish president of Ukraine and an anti-Jewish mayor of New York,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: as Hyman Kaplan would say,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: only in America.
• 8:47
  And a lot of people then helpfully wrote to me to explain that
• 8:49
  Ukraine is not,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: in fact,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: in America.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 8:54
  Which I think reveals that I'm the last person alive who still
• 8:58
  remembers either Leo
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Rosten or Hyman Kaplan.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Marvelous.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Here's something a little bit cynical from me.
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  I don't know if cynical is the right word,
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  but many people in the Republican Party...
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: have condemned Nick Fuentes.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And they say that anti-Semitism has no place in the Republican Party.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I say,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: good,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: but drawing a line at Nazis or at Nazi-friendly people,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: that's almost the least one can do.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: On to Putin, I say.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I recall, I quote so many times
• 9:33
  Bobby Jones,
• 9:34
  the great golf champion,
• 9:37
  in the 1925 US Open,
• 9:39
  he called a penalty on himself.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he wound up losing the Open by a stroke.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And people were eager to praise his honesty and his sportsmanship.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he just scoffed and said, sooner praise a man for not robbing a bank.
• 9:53
  So I say,
• 9:54
  great that you draw the line at Nazis,
• 9:56
  but geez,
• 9:58
  talk about a baby step.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, that's such an interesting point.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And let's elaborate a little bit why this is so important.
• 10:08
  And the beginning here is antisemitism functions differently
• 10:14
  from other kinds of bigotry.
• 10:15
  And while all kinds of bigotry are bad,
• 10:18
  different bigotries are bad in different ways.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And this is not a point that's original to me.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just borrowing it from others, but it's important to understand.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Most forms of bigotry are based in contempt.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: When a man is sexist toward women,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: when a straight person is contemptuous toward gay people,
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: when members of one race are contemptuous or hostile to another race,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: it's based on some feeling of we are better,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: they are less.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: They are making claims for equality that they are not entitled to.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: and we express our disdain for them,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: our sense of group superiority by maligning them or insulting them.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: these are all acts of great wrong,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: but they're one kind of wrong,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: grounded in contempt.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Antisemitism is not grounded in contempt.
• 11:04
  The antisemite does not believe the Jew is his inferior,
• 11:06
  quite the contrary.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: The antisemitism is based in paranoia,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: the belief that the Jews are out to get you,
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: they are forming a conspiracy,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: and they might well prevail.
• 11:19
  The misogynist doesn't believe that the women are going to
• 11:23
  prevail unless the men let them.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: The misogynist believes that the women are less,
• 11:27
  and they're making these false claims for equality that they
• 11:29
  don't deserve.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: But once you are subscribed to the paranoia inherent in antisemitism,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: you're open to all kinds of other crazy stuff.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so antisemitism is both an origin,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: the antisemite has cast away all defenses against all kinds of paranoia.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the other trend is also destination,
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: is people who start with any form of paranoia sooner or later end up at
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: antisemitism.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because you need the, you know, yes, well, there's a conspiracy.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Dr. Fauci is inventing a plague and then inventing a drug.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, why would Dr. Fauci do that?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: And to answer the why question,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: you need to arrive sooner or later at the final boss in the video game,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: the ultimate mastermind.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Who is behind all of this?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Why are these people engaged in inflicting plagues on the world?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: And if you belong to...
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: either a Christian or a Muslim culture,
• 12:29
  there is a master narrative that is thousands of years old for
• 12:33
  Christians,
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: hundreds of years old for Muslims,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: about the role of the Jew.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so you eventually,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: your paranoia about Dr.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Fauci leads you to the why,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: why,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: why,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: why,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: why question leads you to the ultimate conspiracy.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: David, you remind me of something.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Several years ago, I think, what do we call them, the 1910s?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: not 1910s,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: 2010s,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: later in that decade,
• 12:57
  Mona Charan made a point that made an impression on me because
• 13:03
  there are a lot of,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: you might say,
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: proud Jewish Americans in the MAGA movement.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And Mona said, MAGA is full of conspiracy theories.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And sooner or later, conspiracy theories reached the Jews.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of conspiracy theories that don't involve Jews,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: one thing will lead to another and eventually,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: it seems,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: this is not anything I've documented or anything,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: but it seems true to me.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: My wife, Danielle, has a very pithy observation.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: She calls it in the olden days when you subscribe to magazines.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you subscribe to Sports Illustrated for $25 a year,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: you'd sooner or later get a coupon that said,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: why don't you also subscribe to Better Homes and Gardens for...
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: $3 a year.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Or you get a pack,
• 13:53
  you have all of Better Homes and Gardens and Vogue and along
• 13:55
  with your Sports
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Illustrated.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so people buy magazines as a package.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, she said, conspiracy theories are like that.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Once you've signed up for one,
• 14:03
  all the others come at such a steep discount that you are bound
• 14:06
  to succumb to all
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: of them.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: So Trump and MAG is different.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Is Trump
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: harbors all kinds of stereotypes about Jews.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: He's a very weird person in this way.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 14:19
  he had that famous line about when he learned that some company
• 14:22
  had a black CFO
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: that he thought,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want a black CFO.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: I want little guys in Yarmulkes counting my money.
• 14:29
  And yet he had these negative stereotypes without seemingly any
• 14:32
  kind of animus.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't draw the logical conclusions that you might think.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe it's because in a funny kind of way,
• 14:42
  He's such a bad person himself that when he attributes bad
• 14:45
  things to other people,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: it doesn't upset him.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Remember what Paul Ryan said that Trump would always say of Ryan,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: during the 2016 campaign,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: he's a Boy Scout.
• 14:57
  And it took Ryan a while to realize that was an insult because
• 15:01
  where Ryan's from,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: being a Boy Scout is a good thing.
• 15:05
  So,
• 15:05
  yeah,
• 15:06
  so Trump is not like,
• 15:07
  if you've been convicted of fraud,
• 15:08
  Trump's your friend.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: He thinks, now there's a person I can understand and trust.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: So he had these negative stereotypes about Jews,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: but he didn't seem to have classic anti-Semitic paranoias.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And he proved to be a very staunch friend of the state of Israel,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: somewhat in the first term and very much in the second term.
• 15:26
  And indeed,
• 15:27
  that's one of the things I think that Republicans are arguing
• 15:29
  about.
• 15:29
  So they have this strange personality of Donald Trump who's
• 15:32
  full of bigotries
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: against all kinds of groups,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: full of disdain,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: full of contempt,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: but doesn't seem to be especially anti-Jewish.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: But his vice president and presumptive heir,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: although there are a lot of people who question that,
• 15:48
  owes his ascendancy to some of the strongest anti-Jewish voices
• 15:50
  in the Republican
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Party.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's...
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, and Trumpism is a fusion of true MAGA, Steve Bannon's ideas.
• 16:01
  And a lot of vestigial Republicans were just making the best of
• 16:04
  a leader that would
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: not have been their first choice,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: but whom they've reconciled themselves to.
• 16:08
  And I think that's a little bit the debate the Republicans are
• 16:11
  having right now.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: David,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to bring up this particular subject later,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: but now seems a good time from what you've said.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Populism and nationalism,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's no reason those things should contain anti-Semitism.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: There really isn't.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: But they often do in practice.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: There are reasons.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: There are reasons.
• 16:36
  So nationalism...
• 16:37
  I mean,
• 16:37
  one can imagine a populism entirely free of anti-Semitism.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Look, I can imagine...
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: I can imagine an anti-Zionism free of anti-Semitism.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's just very hard for it to exist outside the real world.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's like,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 16:55
  Paul Krugman became famous within the world of economics
• 16:59
  because he showed that
• 17:00
  there were theoretical conditions under which a tariff could be
• 17:03
  welfare enhancing.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: and this was a very elegant proof with lots of math.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: And people said, right, Paul Krugman proved that protectionism works.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And Krugman would be the first, I didn't prove that protectionism works.
• 17:14
  What I showed is under certain laboratory conditions that don't
• 17:17
  exist in the real
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: world,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: a particular tariff can be welfare enhancing.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: But don't,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: he's a little bit chagrined,
• 17:24
  the practical application of his work is very destructive on
• 17:27
  the same way things
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: can exist.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: So here's, so if you're a nationalist,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a German who really wants to hate Frenchmen,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: or a Frenchman who really wants to hate German,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: you have to reckon with,
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: Jews are a pan-European population.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: They existed, especially before the Second World War.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: They were present in many, many countries.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so there are French Jews and German Jews.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And both of them- Yeah.
• 17:53
  And both of them were,
• 17:54
  as they proved during the First World War,
• 17:56
  loyal to their states.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: But there is that kind of call of fellow feeling across borders.
• 18:01
  And if you're someone who believes that human beings should
• 18:02
  have no affinities
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: across borders,
• 18:04
  that the border should be the absolute stopping point of your
• 18:08
  loyalty and sympathy
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: and compassion,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: then Jews are going to be a problem.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: In the same way, populism,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: is not popular.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Populists never represent 100% of the people.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: They very seldom represent even 51% of the people.
• 18:22
  So populists claim power by defining large numbers of their
• 18:28
  fellow citizens as not
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: the people,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: the elites.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: who can be associate professors of English earning $33,000 a year,
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: but they are part of the elite.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you define them out,
• 18:39
  and then you have this shrunken and purified people on behalf
• 18:44
  of whom the populace
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: speaks.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: And again, it just almost always winds up.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: when the phrase populism was,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: which is a word that goes back,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: has ancient roots,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: but when it became,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: when it entered American political speech,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: it did so in the years after the Civil War.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the populists were especially,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: what the populists were upset about,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: the original capital P populists,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: was that the United States,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: after the Civil War,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: returned to hard currency,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: metal currency,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: in a way that was much more...
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Before the Civil War,
• 19:24
  the United States had balanced both silver and gold in its
• 19:26
  monetary system,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: but it was mostly money-based,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: silver-based.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: After the Civil War,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: the United States in 1873 goes back on a bimetal system,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: but this time it's much more gold-flavored.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And in 1900, it formally joins gold as the basis of the monetary system.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Gold in those days was very deflationary.
• 19:45
  So that meant if you were a farmer and you borrowed money to
• 19:49
  expand your holdings
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: during the Civil War,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: to sell your grain to the Union at high prices,
• 19:56
  what you discovered after 1873 was your debt was much more
• 19:59
  oppressive and your
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: income was much reduced.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so you're caught,
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: farmers all across the United States were caught,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: both in North and South,
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: were caught in this debt of
• 20:08
  This squeeze,
• 20:09
  their debts,
• 20:10
  now denominated in gold,
• 20:11
  were much more burdensome.
• 20:12
  Their incomes,
• 20:13
  which had been once based on paper money,
• 20:15
  were now much shrunken.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Who had done this to them?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: Who had done the crime of 73?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Who was responsible for it?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: The question needed a villain.
• 20:25
  And it was pretty hard for the mind of the people who wanted a
• 20:30
  villain for the
• 20:31
  crime of 73 to avoid reaching the conclusion that Jews were
• 20:34
  somehow responsible.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm, hmm, hmm.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Very handy.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Very handy.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to return to something related a bit later.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: I want to read you something now that's in my notes.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: A tweeter made a point.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could remember who the tweeter was, man or woman.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to credit the tweeter.
• 20:57
  It was just in the flow,
• 20:58
  the great Niagara of comment,
• 21:01
  you know,
• 21:02
  that we get every day.
• 21:04
  This was after you remember the young Republicans with a
• 21:06
  capital Y and a capital R.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: They had a chat and all these messages.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And crude, bigoted messages.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: And one after another,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: a Republican senator,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: let's say,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: a Republican establishment figure said,
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: there's no room for anti-Semitism in our party.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: There's no room for anti-Semitism in the conservative movement.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: One after the other, like clockwork.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And this tweeter pointed out,
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: they didn't say a word about the anti-Black racism in this general chat,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: which was more flagrant,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: I gather,
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: than the anti-Semitism.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Very interesting that the anti-Semitism,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: believe me,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: I applaud anti-antisemitism,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: let's call it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I thought that was an interesting noticing of a dog not barking.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that is a very interesting point.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's also a strange phrase.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: So an elephant has wandered into the room.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: You say, there's no room for elephants in this room.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that is contradicted by the fact that there is...
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: There's an elephant in this room.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: So if there were no elephant room for the elephant in the room,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: the elephant could not have entered.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Let's deprive the elephant of space.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: it might be snug in here with this elephant,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: but it is clearly – the elephant is here,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: so there must be a place.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think this is –
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a formulation.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: I hear it a lot in the Canadian context,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: where after there's some anti-Semitic outrage on Canadian streets,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: and there was one a day during the Gaza War,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: more than one a day.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: After some outrage, the politicians will say, there's no room for this.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's no place for this in Canadian society.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: And say, well, it didn't happen in Samarkand.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: It happened in Montreal.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it happened yesterday.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it happened the day before yesterday.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it will happen tomorrow.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it will happen the day after tomorrow.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously there is a place.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: What are you saying?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: What they're saying is, I want a nonspecific condemnation.
• 23:10
  I want to condemn the thing without saying anything about the
• 23:14
  doer because the doer
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: is part of my political coalition.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't want to say something negative about the doer.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to say this thing you're doing, please stop doing it.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: At least, please don't do it so flagrantly and publicly.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Please don't be caught anymore as you're embarrassing me.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you're putting me in a position where I have to say something.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to say anything against you because I need you.
• 23:33
  Yeah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: David, after October 7th and,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: we know which October 7th we mean.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to say 9-11-2001, as some people do.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I did lots of podcasts with good thinkers.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I would ask something like this.
• 23:56
  What we're seeing on campuses in particular,
• 23:58
  this from the river to the sea,
• 24:00
  all this stuff.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: are we looking at people who are simply going with the leftist flow?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Or are we looking at anti-Semites?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And is there a practical difference?
• 24:16
  Maybe there's a difference in motive,
• 24:18
  but is there a practical difference?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because I look at these kids,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: some of them are not really kids,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: but some of them are sort of kids.
• 24:26
  And anti-Israel is just one in their menu of causes,
• 24:31
  the set of progressive causes today.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: So what does your, what should I call it, anti-Semitism detector say?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as you say, there are a lot of people who flip from cause to cause.
• 24:48
  There's a very funny video that was made by an aspiring actor
• 24:54
  shortly after October 7th.
• 24:56
  He's holding his phone and he's saying,
• 24:59
  I know I need to post something,
• 25:00
  but I don't know what.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, because it seems like you could be in trouble either way.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, you may ask, why don't I say anything?
• 25:10
  He said,
• 25:11
  well,
• 25:11
  a friend of mine got a Geico commercial because of a
• 25:14
  pro-Ukraine video.
• 25:20
  So there are people who are sort of flit from,
• 25:23
  you know,
• 25:24
  my friend did that Ukraine video.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: He got a Geico commercial.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I need to do something, but what?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: But what happened literally on campuses on October 7th and the next day,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: I remember when I first heard the news of October 7th,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: so it would have been midday on the 7th itself,
• 25:41
  I felt this tremendous sinking apart because as anyone with any
• 25:47
  geopolitical
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: awareness would know,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: I know how this was going to go,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: which was Israel was going to lay Gaza to waste.
• 25:55
  after a crime so terrible that there was going to be a response
• 25:59
  proportional to the
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: terror of the crime.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you could predict it from the beginning.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of people didn't have that awareness.
• 26:08
  And there was this moment in the pro-Palestine,
• 26:10
  there was this moment of giddiness and euphoria.
• 26:12
  What they were celebrating was they thought that Hamas had
• 26:14
  struck a blow that would
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: lead to the destruction of the state of Israel.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: Hamas thought that.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: And perhaps if others,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: if Hezbollah had joined,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: if there'd been an uprising in the West Bank at the same time,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: if Hezbollah joined from the north of Iran,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: had fired its missiles on the same day,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: if there'd been a coordinated multi-front attack on Israel,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: it might have been a blow beyond even Israeli capabilities to respond.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: But since it was just from Gaza, they were going to lose, obviously.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: But it was not obvious to everybody.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: And there is this pro-Gaza infrastructure that exists that
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Among itself, they have to do a double messaging.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: When they're talking to the people on campus,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: they emphasize the pitifulness,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: the weakness of the Palestinians.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: But when they talk to themselves, they talk about the power.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: The Israeli state is going to be overthrown.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's the mass...
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: keffia-clad,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: masked face,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: brandishing the rifle,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: the revolution is coming,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: we will win,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: we will triumph on the battlefield.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so there was that,
• 27:11
  the excitement of that day among these subgroup of people was
• 27:14
  they thought,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: aha,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: the klaxon is sounded,
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: the hour of victory is at hand,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: la lute finale,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: we are going to,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: and that's what they were so excited about.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: And from the river to the sea mean, at last we finally win.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Pretty soon it became clear, no, you are not going to win.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then as the war continued,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: and Israel systematically neutralized Hezbollah,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: neutralized Iran,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: and then could turn its full attention to Gaza as its lowest priority.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: And given the nature of the war that Hamas had set up,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: which is they had put,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: they had fortified the whole thing.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: They held hostages underground.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: They built this network of tunnels.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: They booby-trapped every building.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: But to come get the hostages meant neutralizing that infrastructure,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: which meant blowing up buildings,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: because every building was a booby trap.
• 28:04
  And again,
• 28:05
  going underground to get to the tunnels,
• 28:06
  which again were tracked.
• 28:08
  So of course it ended up in the massive devastation of the
• 28:12
  built landscape.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Many, many lives lost, not all of them terrorists.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was inevitable from the beginning.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: It was predictable from the beginning.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was not predicted.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you have this group,
• 28:24
  this core that revels in the crimes against Israel and that
• 28:28
  believe that they would
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: work.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then this periphery that are drawn in by sympathy for what happened,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: the things that the Corps was applauding,
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: led to consequences that appalled the periphery.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And especially because memories are so short.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people don't vividly remember October 7th, three years later.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: Where they see vividly are the things that are presented on the phone.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: David, three months later.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Three months later.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: I would say.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Professor Lipstadt,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Deborah Lipstadt,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: was making this point on this program,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: in January 24,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Who remembers October 7th?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And this is,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: why that Western people,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: and especially Americans,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: have great difficulty absorbing this.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: I remember reading somewhere a claim that
• 29:21
  the American soldiers in World War II could often be quite
• 29:23
  cruel to capture German POWs.
• 29:26
  And the reason was is the American soldier had no concept of
• 29:29
  military honor.
• 29:31
  The American soldier believed once it was obvious how this
• 29:34
  battle was going to go,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was your duty to give up.
• 29:38
  You on the losing side,
• 29:39
  once you saw how it was going to go,
• 29:40
  you should have given up.
• 29:41
  And if you kept fighting for some sense of honor and killed my
• 29:44
  friends past the
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: point where it was obvious you had lost,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't see that as honorable conduct.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: I just see that as murder.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: And when I get my hands on you, I'm going to punish you for the murder.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because Americans are such practical people.
• 29:58
  From an American point of view,
• 29:58
  it's just obvious how to solve the middle.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: The Palestinians should accept Israel.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_02: They should give up this struggle.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: They should make their best deal.
• 30:06
  And then you should have a single economy and labor markets and
• 30:11
  Home Depots and tourism.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: And they can't,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: it's just so obvious how this war should end,
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: that they can't believe that Palestinians are not making,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm one of those.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't they just make their best deal?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's a deal to be done here.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: It wouldn't be as good as the deal was.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the problem is each time they attack, they get a worse deal.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great Price Jonesian point.
• 30:38
  David Price Jones makes this point with force that there was
• 30:42
  something on offer in
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: 1947 and this other thing on offer a little later and this other thing.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And yes.
• 30:49
  And boy,
• 30:50
  would they be in clover now if they'd accepted the UN
• 30:53
  partitions.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: But in fairness, not everybody's a materialist.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes people are guided by senses of religious messianism.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And Americans are poorly equipped to understand we're all or nothing.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: We would rather be dead than make any compromise.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: You don't mean literally.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, we would literally rather be dead.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Literally.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Bernard Lewis said he was talking about,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: there's this great question of whether a nuclear Iran could be deterred.
• 31:30
  He said,
• 31:30
  you know,
• 31:31
  mass death is an inducement for some,
• 31:34
  not a deterrence.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, their own mass death.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let me make that clear.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:43
  I mean,
• 31:44
  again,
• 31:45
  the pragmatism of American life is a very attractive feature.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I share it.
• 31:51
  And I'm chauvinist enough to imagine if more people thought
• 31:55
  that way,
• 31:56
  we'd be in a better world.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: But not everybody thinks that way.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: David,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: we've heard so much,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: including from me over the last 10 years or so,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: about the horseshoe,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: this joining,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: this drawing near of left and right.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: And bear with me,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: David,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: because this is really silly,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: really,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: really silly,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: but it's leading to a serious discussion.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: I do limericks.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: I like limericks, especially with funny names.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I was doing one with Mamdani,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: and I thought of Lenora Fulani,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: who was a prominent politician some time ago,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: who was in tandem for a while with Pat Buchanan.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I had Fulani, Mamdani, I ended with Shohei Otani.
• 32:40
  But I got to thinking about Pat Buchanan and Buchananism and
• 32:44
  that strange alliance
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: with,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: or maybe not so strange,
• 32:48
  with Lenora Fulani and their right-wing anti-Semites and
• 32:52
  left-wing anti-Semites
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: is the most important thing about them that they're anti-Semites,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: not the left-right part?
• 33:00
  And I also wonder,
• 33:01
  what is the...
• 33:02
  The most important thing about them is that they're paranoid.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what draws them together.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: And they have different paranoias.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, let's go back to the populist question.
• 33:15
  So there you are,
• 33:18
  a farmer in 1875,
• 33:20
  and your debts are worth more and your income is worth less.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: And you want to know, why did this happen?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: So the center of the horseshit has a series of...
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: Center right to center left has a series of explanations,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: which are very different.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: But if you are somewhat on the left, you would say, well, the...
• 33:42
  Banks that lent money to the union want to get their money paid
• 33:45
  back in full,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: and that's why they want the gold standard.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: And you'd have different explanations,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: but they all were about the real world of things as they actually happen.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: The interplay of interest groups,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: people speaking for their own demands,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: some people more powerful than others and able to prevail.
• 34:03
  But you would have a kind of abstract understanding of the way
• 34:05
  society works,
• 34:06
  that
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: didn't leave a lot of room for paranoid explanations.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: And this approach has the benefit of being true,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: but has the disadvantage of being very unemotionally satisfied.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: I was going to use those very words, swear.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: So the horseshoe is a psychological description.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: There are people who need
• 34:34
  explain why do bad things happen because bad people intended
• 34:37
  them to happen that's
• 34:38
  why bad things happen um and and intended them to happen um for
• 34:44
  completely
• 34:44
  malicious reasons like uh and and so if you're drawn to those
• 34:48
  kinds of explanations
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: then depending on basically depending on whether you're um
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: then you're attracted to different ideologies for different reasons.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like Pat Buchanan starts with his religious views.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: He holds a very extreme and reactionary form of Catholicism.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: So at some level, he's still mad about the Jews killing Christ.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Lenore would have her own versions of this.
• 35:11
  But in both cases,
• 35:12
  what they can agree on is bad things happen because bad people
• 35:14
  do them.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are an inheritor of
• 35:17
  western or islamic culture the most uh logical the the most
• 35:22
  pressing the most
• 35:23
  fundamental bad group of bad people who do bad things are jews
• 35:26
  yeah david i have a
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: painful memory which i'll share i had a dear friend um
• 35:34
  golden guy,
• 35:35
  pillar of the community,
• 35:37
  generous,
• 35:38
  admirable,
• 35:40
  wonderful fellow.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he got older and older.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember in a conversation he had,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: he said something,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: isn't it true that,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: the Jews control the banks and the media and Hollywood?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And he had...
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm not going to blame Fox News, but Fox News is on 24-7.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine things are unrelated.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I'm just remembering.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I answered as well as I could.
• 36:12
  And he looked at me,
• 36:13
  gave me a look as though to say,
• 36:14
  oh,
• 36:15
  he knew I was a political journalist.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're keeping something from me.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was never brought up again.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, wow.
• 36:26
  But how orderly his universe to believe that someone controls
• 36:28
  these things.
• 36:29
  There's a fantastic scene in The Sopranos,
• 36:32
  maybe you remember it,
• 36:33
  where...
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: The network,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: the neighborhood in,
• 36:36
  I think it's Newark or Jersey City where the Sopranos are based
• 36:40
  is gentrifying.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they get what is obviously a Starbucks opens in a pedestrian mall.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: They don't make it clear.
• 36:47
  And two people from the Soprano family arrived to extort
• 36:51
  protection money.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a moment where they say,
• 36:54
  how would the owners of the store feel if a brick were to go
• 36:57
  through the window or
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: God forbid,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: even a manager were to break a leg?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: And the young man who manages the store says, they own 2,300 stores.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think they feel anything.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: Who controls Hollywood?
• 37:22
  There are a lot of important people in Hollywood,
• 37:25
  and some of them are Jews.
• 37:27
  um what is and what is hollywood in the day of streaming anyway
• 37:30
  and what are the
• 37:31
  banks in the day of of the shadow non who controls the money
• 37:35
  market funds and
• 37:36
  trillions of dollars of money outside the bank like like if you
• 37:39
  actually know how
• 37:40
  these things work you realize the whole thing is it's like it's
• 37:42
  a crazy but it's
• 37:45
  kind of hopeful in a way is that some at least someone's in
• 37:47
  charge and and because
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: look the
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: The answer to the anti-Semite in that case would be,
• 37:57
  you understand that you live on a small planet orbiting a small
• 38:02
  star in a galaxy
• 38:06
  with hundreds of thousands of stars and in a universe of
• 38:09
  hundreds of thousands of
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: galaxies,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: and none of it cares about us at all.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: And no one is in charge of it.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: We're just all the victims of mute,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: impersonal,
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: or not mute,
• 38:19
  but impersonal laws that crush our fondest hopes and destroy
• 38:22
  our lives without the
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: slightest awareness that we ever existed in the first place.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: You understand that.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'd rather be at the mercy of the Jews.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: David, I keep telling readers and listeners this.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have to bear with me.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Over the summer,
• 38:38
  I was talking with a prominent national reporter who travels
• 38:42
  the length and breadth
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: of our country,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: and he knows a lot,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: and is a conservative,
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: by the way.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he said,
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Nick Fuentes,
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: he's far more popular and influential,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: especially among the young.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: He really meant people like you realize, Jay.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And also, he's talented.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: said my source.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: He's clever.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: He puts on a good show.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he has millions of followers.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: And people ought to pay attention to this.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not incidental.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I wasn't really surprised.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I keep saying that it seems that at least for some,
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking about this with Daniel Hannon the other day,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: at least for some,
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: politics is sort of like,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: politics is
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: is like what porn or drugs are for some.
• 39:33
  You need ever harder stuff because the stuff you're currently
• 39:36
  on gets to be too tame,
• 39:38
  bland.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: You need a stronger high, so to speak.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, think of it this way.
• 39:46
  How upset would you be if the electricity went off and stayed
• 39:49
  off for a long time?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, bad.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Bad.
• 39:53
  How much time do you spend reading about the management of the
• 39:56
  electrical grid?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Zero.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: Zero.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: As important,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: because the more important something is,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: it's a funny way,
• 40:03
  the more you expect someone else to look out for it and not to
• 40:05
  care about it.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so older fashion media,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: what people of a certain age regard as the media,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: when people say they mean companies that were important in 1975.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 40:22
  And that's one of the things that is sort of quaint about
• 40:24
  Donald Trump is he's
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: really upset about 60 Minutes.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: And because he... And he loves being on the cover of Time magazine.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's still 1975 forever.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: But those old-fashioned companies always try to have
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: some emphasis on what was important.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: there'd be some story at the Times or AP,
• 40:43
  they'd spend the money to do the big report on gathering
• 40:48
  troubles in the electrical
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: distribution network.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know, and they'd win a prize for it.
• 40:53
  They might not win any readers,
• 40:54
  but they win a prize and that paid the money.
• 40:57
  But the whole modern attention economy understands they know
• 40:59
  instantly what people want.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so what they want are villains.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: And what they want are also flawed.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: They like flawed narrators.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like one of the things I watch a little bit of Nick Quintus,
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: and one of the things that he's very candid about is...
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: he doesn't have a girlfriend, never has, never will.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Now, he's a perfectly ordinary-looking young man.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: He must have zillions of groupies, I would think.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the point is he makes himself accessible, and he's well-to-do.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I see the point.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: I see.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: So if you've never had... You want... You want...
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: heroes who are above you, but also open to you.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so Fuentes speaks for,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: what he does,
• 41:51
  he speaks there to the frustration that is broadly felt among
• 41:56
  young men about the
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: difficulty of forming a relationship with a young woman.
• 42:00
  And then he uses that to open the door to other things that are
• 42:02
  specific to him.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: David, do you think, was Father Cochran like that at all?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he was wildly successful.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: Did people relate to him?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, of course they did.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: So Father Coughlin, he had a beautiful voice.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Father Coughlin was a radio preacher.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: He wouldn't have had a girlfriend either, I wouldn't think.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Being a priest.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe so, I don't know.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: But he was a wildly popular radio personality of the 1930s.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: And he got his start.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a similar thing.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: He got his start by talking about economic frustrations.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:37
  But then he had a specific explanation of why those
• 42:40
  frustrations existed and they
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: were the Jews.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: But the difference actually is the difference between the,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: here's a difference in Father Coughlin's day and ours,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: and I'll give you another example of this in a moment,
• 42:53
  which is there were powerful institutions that could do
• 42:55
  something about him.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: In the end,
• 42:56
  Father Coughlin went off the air because the Pope told him he
• 42:59
  had to come off the
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: air.
• 43:03
  And the Pope told him that because as the war came close and as
• 43:08
  Coughlin's views
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: became ever more pro-axis,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: the Roosevelt administration,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: made representations to the papacy that they wanted this to happen.
• 43:16
  And so the combination of the stricter radio regulation and
• 43:19
  papal pressure,
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: Father Coughlin,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: he lived for some time after that,
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: but he just disappeared as a public voice.
• 43:25
  David,
• 43:25
  this is an adaptation of an old line which you'll recognize,
• 43:28
  you know,
• 43:29
  What's the point of being Pope if you can't act like a Pope now
• 43:31
  and then?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: The king's job is to rule.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, those people are gone.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let me give you another example of this.
• 43:41
  When the polio vaccine first began to become available in the
• 43:44
  early 1950s,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: the,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: the very first iterations of the polio vaccine,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: did not work as well and caused some harm.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: and then the vaccine was then improved and these harms were reduced,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: but there were,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: there were genuine cases.
• 43:59
  There were some experiments where some people suffered some
• 44:01
  harm,
• 44:02
  uh,
• 44:02
  who got the vaccine early.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so, um, uh,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: The radio personality,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: Walter Winchell,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: who was a big deal in the 50s,
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: but whose career was fading.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: He had bet big on McCarthy.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: That bet had looked good in 1952.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't look so good in 1954.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: He was looking for his next thing to revive a troubled career.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: He decided he would be Mr. Anti-Vax.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: So Walter Winchell,
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: who started as a New Deal liberal,
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: who was Jewish,
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: becomes the Tucker Carlson in the 50s,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: the leading anti-vax voice on the airwaves.
• 44:32
  When that moment when you may have seen the iconic photograph
• 44:37
  of Elvis Presley
• 44:38
  getting a shot from the New York Public Health Commissioner on
• 44:40
  the Ed Sullivan Show
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: was an answer to Walter Winchell.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: So Elvis Presley,
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: the biggest star with young people in America in his time,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_02: Ed Sullivan,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: the biggest show,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: the New York Health Commissioner representing
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: Public institutions,
• 44:53
  it's a visual display of these massive institutions converging
• 44:57
  to say public trust
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: should be had.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: And meanwhile,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Walter Winchell finds himself,
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: he's trying to make a transition from radio to TV,
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: and he suddenly finds,
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_02: you know what,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: TV stations,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: you can be on the radio,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: which is a much less big thing in 1958 than it was in 1952,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: but no TV for you.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: And his career goes into fate.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Those kinds of,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: the Pope telling Father Coughlin off the air,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: ABC,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: NBC,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: and CBS agreeing no TV for Walter Winchell.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 45:30
  the source of a lot of resentments that people have about the
• 45:33
  way the world used to
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: work.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of anger.
• 45:36
  Like,
• 45:36
  what do you mean three networks aside,
• 45:38
  you can't be on TV and that's it?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that world is gone.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of the reason- I said that.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: I said that a lot.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: Media monopoly and all this stuff.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Be careful what you wish for.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's also an example of how powers get abused.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_02: So the same powers that are used to keep someone off the air from saying,
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: don't take the polio vaccine.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: Can those powers grow with the eating?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so they got yes.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so 20 years later,
• 46:07
  the people who felt self-righteous because they had helped to
• 46:11
  save America from
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: polio then did other things that were much more abusive of power.
• 46:15
  And they were still basking in what they'd done in 1955 and
• 46:18
  using it to justify
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: their power in 1975.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know what, David?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think that when I was young,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I first knew about Dr.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Salk when he appeared on a postage stamp.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there were news stories about his being placed on a postage stamp.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that was my first acquaintance with Dr. Salk.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we were born, I was born in 1960.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: 63, yeah.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: So polio was just gone.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Just gone.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it was hard for people of our age to understand what a terror.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you knew polio victims who limped.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: But it never occurred to you that you couldn't.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: So you were not sufficiently grateful.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Your parents were very grateful to Dr.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sock,
• 47:00
  but you were not because you just took it for like so much of
• 47:02
  our modern world.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: And this is one of the things that for those of us who are
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: the non-populists,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of my deep political questions,
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: and it's very hard to explain,
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: is do you have any concept what a miracle the modern world is?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm sitting here holding this cup of coffee.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the coffee doesn't grow in Asheville, North Carolina.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: This cup wasn't made in Asheville, North Carolina.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: My ability to talk to you in real time,
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: face-to-face Dick Tracy wristwatch style at no cost,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: it's,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: it's,
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: it's,
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: it's one miracle.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's a miracle.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's a miracle after another.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: And, and much of this is, and, um, it's, it's so new, you know, when, um,
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: When you try to look up food price inflation,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: and there is a series of federal data points,
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of the things like fresh fruits and vegetables,
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: they just stop around 1982 when you go backward in time.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: Before 1982, fresh fruits and vegetables were seasonal.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: You can get a papaya anytime you want to.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: Unbelievable.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a miracle.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Tom Wolfe said something like,
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: The average Joe today lives in a way that would make the Sun King blink.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: and to drive that point home,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: the Sun King,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: who was Louis XIV,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: who did lead to a great age,
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: although he didn't have any of his teeth by the end.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: He was not succeeded by a son because his son was dead.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: All his sons were dead.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: He was not succeeded by his grandson because all his grandsons were dead.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: He was succeeded by a great-grandson because,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: despite his extraordinary good health and good luck,
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: most upper-class French people made it to about 50.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: If they were lucky.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: If they didn't die in childhood, they died at 50.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: David,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: with Dan Hannon,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking about anti-Semitism and philo-Semitism,
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: which is a happier subject.
• 49:11
  Although I was thinking about this when you were saying
• 49:12
  something earlier.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is an expression, Norman Podhoretz taught it to me.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's been around for a very long time.
• 49:19
  But David,
• 49:20
  do you know the expression philo-Semitism is the higher
• 49:23
  anti-Semitism?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain it?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think I can, but you may do a better job.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: Does it mean don't pay too much attention to us one way or the other?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's an old Jewish joke that what are Jews like?
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: They like other people only more so.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, so, so, Philo, PhiloSemitism.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: So both of those.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: so I think there's sort of reasonable forms of like,
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: so if you're,
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: as I think this was the Daniel Haddon point,
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: which is,
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have obsessive feelings about the Jews,
• 50:00
  but I know that a society where Jews flourish is probably a
• 50:03
  healthier and freer
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: society than one that's not.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so in a way,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think before this recent,
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: what one would have said before October 7th is gay rights are that.
• 50:15
  kind of issue which is um you know whatever you feel like even
• 50:19
  if you i come from
• 50:20
  quite a socially conservative background but one of the things
• 50:22
  that became
• 50:22
  available being realized in the 1990s is you know basically
• 50:26
  when a society that is
• 50:27
  persecuting gays is probably going to be persecuting a lot of
• 50:30
  other people too and
• 50:31
  a society that is tolerant of gays is probably going to be a
• 50:33
  society that is a
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: better one for most people to live in so they're they're
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_02: They have an importance beyond their own individual humanity,
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: which is important enough,
• 50:43
  but they're also like traced markers of what's going to happen
• 50:48
  for everybody else.
• 50:49
  And so the philo-Semitism that says a society that persecutes
• 50:53
  Jews is going to be a
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: dangerous place sooner or later for everybody,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: that's one kind.
• 50:58
  And another kind is to understand them more so in the Jewish
• 51:00
  joke,
• 51:01
  which is for...
• 51:04
  reasons that are much debated,
• 51:06
  and I have my theories about,
• 51:07
  but we don't need to enter into.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: In the societies of the post-Enlightenment West,
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_02: Jews have contributed disproportionate amounts to arts,
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: literature,
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: science,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: commerce.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: And those are real contributions, and they...
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: They deserve respect.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: But if it means,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: as sometimes with Trump,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: that Jews have unusual gifts for this or that thing,
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: then it can,
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: as individuals and not as a collective,
• 51:38
  then it can share the same kind of magical thinking that the
• 51:42
  anti-Semitic.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: I got you.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: David,
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: the United States,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to put this artfully and I can't,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: so I'll just put it plainly.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is it still a great,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: great country for Jews to live in,
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: as well as all the rest of us to live in?
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is something I grew up hearing.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: Never was there a better... Yeah.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: So as we approach...
• 52:11
  I'm old enough to remember the 200th anniversary of 1776,
• 52:14
  1976,
• 52:14
  the bicentennial year.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, heaven's sakes, David.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:18
  And remind the audience,
• 52:19
  by the way,
• 52:19
  what else took place on July 4th,
• 52:21
  1976?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: The raid on Entebbe.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: That was a hell of a day.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: That was a hell of a day.
• 52:28
  So what I remember about the mood of that year was the United
• 52:31
  States had come out
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: of Watergate and come out of Vietnam and come out of...
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hang on,
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: David.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: I can interrupt you.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think you were in Canada.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was in Michigan near Canada.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: Did you ever see on television, probably not, the Bicentennial Minute?
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: These minute clips, those are minute presentations about the founding.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Marvelous.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: as a matter of fact,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: in July of 1976,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: I was in the United States in Michigan at the National Music Camp.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: You're an Interlochen kid.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we're two Interlochen kids on the same podcast today.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: You had real talent.
• 53:08
  I was there because they had a kind of an affirmative action
• 53:12
  program for actors.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: So the musicians are so talented and we actors were mostly not,
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: but I was good at declaiming things.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:20
  so i was there in the drama program and i would just watch with
• 53:22
  awe the musicians
• 53:23
  like you who had real talents um but uh i remember getting the
• 53:29
  phone call uh i was
• 53:30
  called to the directors to hear the ntabby news but my mother
• 53:33
  placed a phone call
• 53:34
  to me to tell me about it so i so it's very vividly in my mind
• 53:39
  in july of 1976 a
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: phone call from home at camp
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, stunning.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to tell our listeners and viewers,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: David,
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: you don't have to listen to this,
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: but David's late mother,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: Barbara,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: was one of the most prominent broadcasters,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: news people in Canada.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 53:58
  But what I remember about that year was the United States had
• 54:01
  come out of,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: Watergate,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: Vietnam,
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: and then the bruising economic recession of 74,
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: 75.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: And Americans felt kind of,
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: collectively,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: if you can generalize in this way,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: in a low mood.
• 54:13
  and the bison and all these things were to remind people of the
• 54:15
  greatness of the
• 54:16
  country and and and because 1976 was a year of economic
• 54:19
  expansion and these things
• 54:20
  were sort of these traumas were behind people were sort of
• 54:23
  ready for it the 250th
• 54:26
  is a very different kind of mood at least I find myself in a
• 54:30
  different mood you
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: know I and I think the question I have is
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: One of my favorite Civil War songs has marching through Georgia,
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: which is a rather bloodthirsty song,
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: but there's one line in it that always resonates with me,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: which is the line,
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: hurrah,
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: hurrah,
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: we bring the jubilee,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: hurrah,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: hurrah,
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: the flag that makes you free.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: And the question I would have is,
• 54:57
  do people around the world when they see the American flag
• 54:59
  still think this brings
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: us freedom?
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because for a long time after 1940,
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: whether you were Polish or Estonian or Cuban or so many places,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: you saw that flag,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know that means freedom.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: Either you can flee an unfree country and go there and find freedom,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: or the flag comes to you,
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: or the flag offers you life.
• 55:19
  If you're an Estonian,
• 55:20
  you think someday that flag will fly over an embassy here.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how we'll know we're a free country.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is that how people feel in 2026?
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_02: I wish it were so.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if it is.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:34
  Well,
• 55:34
  David,
• 55:34
  with your indulgence,
• 55:35
  I think I have about three more for you.
• 55:37
  I put something on social media the other day,
• 55:41
  and a lot of people didn't like it.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was really an honest inquiry.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about...
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: rights,
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: by which I mean camps of the right,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: the American right,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: the French right,
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: so on and so forth.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if we accept the Israeli right,
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: has there ever been a right that has remained Jew-friendly for long?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: The British right has done...
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: By that, do we mean the conservative party?
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I suppose I mean the conservative party.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 56:16
  That famous jibe of Harold Macmillan at Margaret Thatcher that
• 56:19
  the cabinet
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: contained more Etonians than Estonians.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: The cabinet's supposed to contain old Etonians, not old Estonians.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: So then there's the BNP and the skinheads and that's different.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, the British, but we'll accept the British right generally.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, for sure.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's epitomized by Churchill.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: He called himself a liberal right till the end.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I think so just generally.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: Countries with healthy political systems,
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_02: it's that span across the center from the social democratic left to the
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: market-based center to the property rights right.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: All the people are trying to make a modern state work.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_02: All the people understand that bad things happen for complicated reasons.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that...
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: it's and that most of the things that weigh most heavily on ordinary,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: but why aren't my wages going up faster that you,
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: it's not going to work to point to a bad person who did this to you.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: but so,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: so long as that,
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: that,
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: that kind of broad center spectrum holds support,
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: command support,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: then I think those,
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: those are societies that,
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: are doing well.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, one, one of the, uh,
• 57:42
  One of the analogies that we're hearing a lot because of the
• 57:44
  lecture of mayor-elect
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_02: Mamdani is the recalling of Karl Luger,
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: the anti-Semitic mayor of Vienna in the 1890s and early 1900s.
• 57:53
  Vienna was then one of the most Jewish cities in the world and
• 57:55
  had elected this
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: mayor whose central tenant of his platform was anti-Semitism.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: He was also a very capable mayor.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: He built an aqueduct and improved the trams.
• 58:03
  But what is forgotten is that Karl Lugar won quite a number of
• 58:05
  elections before he
• 58:07
  took office because the Austrian system at the time allowed the
• 58:11
  emperor to veto the
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: election of a mayor.
• 58:14
  And Franz Josef,
• 58:15
  who despised anti-Semitism,
• 58:16
  I think once or twice vetoed Karl Lugar as mayor.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: And the Viennese kept re-electing him, so eventually the emperor yielded.
• 58:23
  But it was a stable,
• 58:24
  as long as the society was stable,
• 58:26
  it had little room for Karl Lugar.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: When the society begins to break down, then it has more.
• 58:31
  You and I have just been commenting on Stefan Zweig,
• 58:35
  who depicts this world unforgettable.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: The age of security, he called it.
• 58:40
  Oh, yes.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's right.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: David, I've told this story on myself before.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell it again.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was about 1990.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was working at a golf course with my friend Marilyn.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: We were working together in the pro shop.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I said to her, and I didn't really regard myself as naive.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was a rather worldly fellow.
• 59:05
  I said,
• 59:05
  Marilyn,
• 59:06
  I said,
• 59:07
  tell me,
• 59:09
  have you ever experienced antisemitism personally?
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: She looked at me as though I had three eyes.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, Jay.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: I felt so abashed, so abashed.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:25
  I'm not going to ask you whether you've experienced
• 59:27
  antisemitism personally.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned my lesson.
• 59:33
  Have you experienced flagrant and abominable antisemitism in
• 59:40
  your life at any stage?
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let me put it this way.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_02: I dwell in the realm of ideas.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like we're dealing with it right now.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: Have I ever,
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: as anyone said,
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_02: you can't,
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: and I've accounted barriers and obstacles for sure,
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: things you can't do.
• 1:00:03
  It was never issue one for me because you put it in context and
• 1:00:11
  other people had
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_02: worse,
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: especially when you're living in the United States.
• 1:00:14
  In that sense,
• 1:00:15
  the kind of,
• 1:00:16
  if you mean like not getting a job,
• 1:00:17
  obviously it's,
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: In my lifetime,
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: the barriers are much greater for African-Americans above all,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: but for many other groups.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: But here I say this is the way I think about it.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: So my father was born in Canada in 1931.
• 1:00:36
  his parents came to Canada from Poland in 1930,
• 1:00:38
  not for any heroic reason.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: They just, they couldn't find work.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: And they had relatives in Toronto, so that's where they ended up.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_02: But most of my father's parents' family stayed behind.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: A few went to British Palestine.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Most stayed behind in Poland.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: All of them were murdered.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if my,
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: if Solom and Rivka Fromm,
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: Solom and Rivka Fromm had made slightly different decisions in 1930,
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: my father then stayed behind with most of their family.
• 1:01:05
  My father would have been murdered sometime around the time of
• 1:01:07
  his 10th,
• 1:01:09
  11th,
• 1:01:09
  12th birthday.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that, uh, now I've never experienced anything like that.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: Anything close to it.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: in,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: during the war of,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_02: during the round of Hamas firing in 2014,
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_02: my daughter was working in Israel.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: My daughter, Miranda, who's lost in 2024.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_02: She was on, she was under rocket fire all the time.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_02: There were attempted kidnappings.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_02: She might've been.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, so it, it's not, uh,
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that I have had to worry so much about job discrimination.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: No, not really.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: Have I had to worry about people I love being killed?
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:01:51
  And I think that's the difference between the historical
• 1:01:54
  experience of Jews and
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: some of these other groups is,
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:00
  American women over a certain age can certainly remember a very
• 1:02:03
  unequal job market.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: They can remember having difficulty getting credit cards,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_02: systematic exclusion from economic opportunity,
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: systematic exclusion from education.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: And not that Jews have been strangers to that,
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: but the nightmare that haunts is not discrimination,
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: it is murder.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: David, did you have a relative murdered in the Gaza...
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: So this is not a close draw.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: So among my father's cousins, this family called the Nutris, N-E-U-T-R-A.
• 1:02:36
  And their son,
• 1:02:37
  Omer,
• 1:02:39
  was a tank commander on October 7th and was attacked by the
• 1:02:48
  invasion.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: And there were two tanks in the unit he commanded.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: One tank was able to make good its escape,
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: but his tank had a mechanical breakdown,
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: and he and his crew were taken prisoner.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_02: There was video, apparently, of them being taken.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: And for 14 months, his family lived in unawareness.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't know whether he was being tortured every day in a tunnel.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: On month 14,
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: they found out,
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: in fact,
• 1:03:10
  that he had been murdered in cold blood after being taken
• 1:03:13
  prisoner on the first day
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: because he was taken in uniform.
• 1:03:15
  And some of the people they took in uniform were just
• 1:03:18
  immediately killed out of hand.
• 1:03:19
  And so he,
• 1:03:20
  in fact,
• 1:03:20
  was not tortured or he was not subjected to prolonged torture.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: But he was killed on the day, but not in battle, but in cold blood.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: David, final remarks.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: As we noted at the beginning,
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sitting here in Berlin,
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: the capital of Germany,
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: and I grew up with,
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: not with World War II,
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: we grew up with books about World War II and movies and television.
• 1:03:50
  And Berlin,
• 1:03:52
  for many years now,
• 1:03:54
  has meant a hip capital for the young of various countries.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's affordable.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's affordable.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's a wonderful city in which to be a young person.
• 1:04:04
  I,
• 1:04:04
  because of the time in which I grew up,
• 1:04:08
  I always regarded,
• 1:04:10
  of course,
• 1:04:10
  Berlin was divided.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's a different drama.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I always thought of Berlin as a capital of darkness,
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: of a locus of evil,
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: but not least the evil of anti-Semitism.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I have heard all of our lives from our teachers.
• 1:04:32
  You know,
• 1:04:32
  it did happen in Germany,
• 1:04:34
  could have happened in Russia,
• 1:04:36
  France,
• 1:04:36
  Poland,
• 1:04:36
  you know.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: David, is the human material the same everywhere?
• 1:04:44
  Is every people subject to,
• 1:04:46
  for example,
• 1:04:47
  the ill or evil of anti-Semitism?
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: There was nothing special about the Germans.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_02: so that,
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: I would say,
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_02: the human material is equal everywhere,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: but first things depend on cultural resources.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: I've mentioned a couple of times,
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_02: so if you are Christian,
• 1:05:11
  at the foundation level of your religion is the belief that God
• 1:05:15
  sent his son to the
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_02: Jews to tell them to shape up.
• 1:05:22
  much of Jesus' specific teachings and their criticisms of
• 1:05:24
  things in Jewish life.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_02: And in particular to shape up no money changers in the temple.
• 1:05:30
  So there's something about the Jewish propensity for commerce
• 1:05:32
  that Jesus found
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: offensive,
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_02: God through Jesus found offensive,
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_02: and the Jewish community then rallied and murdered God.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that is a myth that is present at the very foundation of your culture.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_02: So when you start digging for people to be mad at,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: Jews are there.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_02: If you are Muslim,
• 1:05:49
  one of the foundational ideas of Islamic faith is that Adam was
• 1:05:55
  the first man and
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: he was a Muslim,
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_02: and Abraham was a Muslim,
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_02: and Moses was a Muslim.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_02: Muhammad calls people back to Islam, but he doesn't invent Islam.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_02: It existed before him.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_02: So why do we not know this?
• 1:06:15
  and the answer is because the jews who wrote down the stories
• 1:06:17
  of adam and abraham
• 1:06:18
  and moses systematically lied they falsified the record uh to
• 1:06:23
  represent people who
• 1:06:24
  were muslims as non-muslims uh and uh and therefore again at
• 1:06:30
  the foundational level
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_02: of your faith is a belief is a myth about jews but if you're korean
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's not there, maybe for a Korean Christian.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're Japanese, it's not there.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, they have their own, every culture has outgrouped.
• 1:06:45
  So the identification of the Jews as this primary is going to
• 1:06:50
  be stronger in
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_02: Christian and Muslim societies than in non-Christian,
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_02: non-Muslim societies.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I would,
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: without knowing it,
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_02: I would guess it'd be pretty hard to sell anti-Semitism in India.
• 1:07:00
  because it just doesn't attach to a cultural heritage the way
• 1:07:05
  it does in Christian
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_02: and Islamic societies.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_02: But the need to persecute is always there,
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_02: and the human propensity for paranoia,
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_02: and the need for explanations about why did this happen.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: The human,
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:16
  it comes about from the human impulse when you stumble on a
• 1:07:19
  chair in the dark to
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_02: kick the chair.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_02: We all know the chair didn't do it.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_02: Damn chair.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_02: Damn chair.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't do it.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's an inanimate object.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was just in the wrong place.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_02: And this isn't your fault either.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: It was an accident.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, your foot hurts.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody has to suffer.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that impulse is universal.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: In the particular case,
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_02: what Theodor Herzl,
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: the founder of Zionism,
• 1:07:46
  saw in 1890-something was that murderous anti-Semitism was
• 1:07:53
  coming somewhere in the
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_02: European continent.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't know whether it was coming in France,
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: the home of the Dreyfus Affair,
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_02: home in Tsarist Russia,
• 1:08:02
  a site of the pogroms and where the protocols of the elders of
• 1:08:05
  Zion were forged,
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_02: in Austria,
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_02: which had an anti-Semitic mayor in the biggest city,
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_02: or in Germany.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_02: probably from the vantage point of 1895,
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_02: if you had said to Herzl,
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: there's going to be a murderous industrial anti-Semitism somewhere.
• 1:08:19
  I think he would have regarded the Kaiser's Germany as probably
• 1:08:22
  one of the less
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: likely people on the list.
• 1:08:26
  Um,
• 1:08:26
  Russia,
• 1:08:26
  France,
• 1:08:27
  or Austria,
• 1:08:27
  more likely,
• 1:08:28
  but he knew it was coming somewhere.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_02: And Zionism was an answer to that problem.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't arrive for the people who were the victims.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't arrive in time,
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_02: but that,
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_02: that's why,
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_02: that's why Jews don't take very seriously.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: Most Jews don't take seriously this claim.
• 1:08:41
  I'm,
• 1:08:41
  I'm anti-Zionist,
• 1:08:42
  not anti-Semite because,
• 1:08:44
  because,
• 1:08:45
  you know,
• 1:08:45
  Zionism was both,
• 1:08:47
  um,
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_02: a reaction to anti-Semitism,
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: a defense against it,
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_02: and to this day remains the surest bulwark against it.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: So what do you mean?
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_02: What are you talking about?
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies and gentlemen,
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jay Nordlinger doing Q&A,
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: and I have talked with David Frum since the mid-1990s,
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a privilege.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, David, for talking about this subject.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_00: We might prefer to talk about other things, but it's terribly important.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so very much.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jay.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's always a pleasure to talk to you.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_02: Bye-bye.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_00: Till next time, everyone.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: So long.