Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / "The Who & Quadrophenia"/Martin Popoff [Episode 152]

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"The Who & Quadrophenia"/Martin Popoff [Episode 152] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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Oh, we're totally booked rock and roll. I mean, I'll leave you
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do you're reading Little Hands, It's time to rock and roll. Rollo.
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We are totally booked. Welcome back to Booked on Rock, the podcast for
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those about to read and rock. Find the podcast at booked on rock dot
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com. Exclusive videos, blogs, links to all of the social media sites,
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latest rock book releases, and links to all the listening platforms. We're
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coming up on the fiftieth anniversary of one of the best selling albums ever,
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The Who's classic nineteen seventy three album Quadrophenia. Returning to the podcast to talk
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about the album and his brand new book titled The Who and Quadrophenia is Veederan
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rock journalist Martin pop Off. You can hear all of Quadrophenia on the show
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notes page. Hey Martin, welcome back to the podcast. Yes, thanks
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again, Eric, very cool The Who. Any day we talked about The
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Who's uh going to be fun? Hell? Yes, we're talking about Quadrophenia
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and this brand new book is called The Who and Quadrophenia, so it covers
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the album, but beyond that, it's also the before and after, but
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really specifically on Quadrophenia, which is an album that I guess what, it's
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about to turn fifty. When did you first hear this album in its entirety?
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What was your reaction when you first heard it? Boy, It's it's
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an interesting question because I think I started with The Who a little bit late.
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I would have started around face Dances in a serious way because I was
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basically your angry young metal head. Everything had to be heavy. The Who
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was like some old band, and they sound and they they sounded old always.
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They always sounded a little more unraveled versus, you know, the stuff
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that I was listening to as a kid. So I started, you know,
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my my, my horizon started widening around seventy nine eighty, you know,
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getting out of high school, getting into first year university kind of thing
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coming up, and so so I was. I was a big weird Who
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fan. Who's coming in at this time when you're not supposed to like The
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Who very much? Face Dances? It's hard. I was like, I
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was into both of those quite a bit. So Quatrofnia came quite a bit
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later. But you know, as I went back and listened to all this
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stuff, I mean, even Endless Wire is an amazing record to me,
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and that's one nobody know who fan wants to defend that one. So I
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really like those later albums and the Pete Townsend solo catalog, especially around Empty
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Class and all the best cowboys have Chinese Eyes. But this period going back,
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and I'm not even particularly much of a WHO fan of anything pre you
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know, particularly Tommy. I'm a I'm a seventies guy and forward sort of
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thing with the Who. So yeah, I love this record. I mean
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as a as a concept album, I think it's a much better concept Tommy
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always creeped me out. I remember seeing that, you know, as a
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kid in the theater, and I was too young for it. It was
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just all these creepy, weird rock stars and this drug use and all these
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lights and everything. Yet the whole thing seemed kind of dark. It was
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actually filmed kind of dark, too, dark and grainy. So yeah,
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it's it's funny, uh. I think I think I gravitate to this more.
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And also as a big Jam fan and just sort of a fan of
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that whole mod movement. I just I just really liked this story. I
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think it's just a really good, solid story. It's by far the best
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sort of conceptual thing I think Pete has ever done. Okay, well that's
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what I was going to ask, how do you how do you compare it
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to Tommy? Tommy's just too psychedelicate, fragmented and old and just too much
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going on. It's confusing. Life host was confusing. Uh, you know,
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iron Man was confusing. So I just I just think that the idea
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that he had was to was to base something a little more in reality.
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I think the story is linear enough and easy enough to understand. I love
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that it comes from his own past because the Who were the basically you know,
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the high numbers into the who uh, into into the into the you
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know, the trying to make a documentary about this scene. I mean they
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were essentially the number one mod band. You know, obviously there was the
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Faces and the Kinks and then uh and then as we move into Northern Soul
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and all the stuff that you know, the Mods incorporated into what they were
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doing. But the Who, you know, with the with the the Bull's
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Eye and the you know, the the Union Jack and everything, they were
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the mod band. So Pete has you know, absolute credence and credibility to
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to be talking about this story so yeah, I just think it's a it's
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a really good it's a really good, solid story. You know, at
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the time, it might even been too too soon to talk about the MOD
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thing, because the mod thing was really only eight years previous sort of thing.
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And it's interesting that you allow a little more time to go by six
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more years and uh, and people are a little more receptive to this mod's
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story and you get this minor mod revival, although it wasn't much of a
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revival at all. Yeah, let's go talk about that mod concept. What
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is a mod? Like, what did that originate and what and what is
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the significance of that in Quadrophenia. Yeah, so you know, it's it's
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a bunch of different things. It's a it's a fashion scene from the sort
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of like the Italian cinema, the Italian fashion thing. So it's these it's
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these uh, you know, suits, tight suits, dressing snappy, being
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sharp. Uh, you know, these kids trying to basically you know,
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there there's there's a little bit of an a depth to it in the in
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the forsaking of of rocker culture and alcoholism and your parents and drinking. So
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it was more of a you know, we're gonna stay sharp, we're gonna
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take these uppers, we're gonna take pills and stay up all night. So
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it was a it was an amphetamine and speed sort of culture as well.
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But so yeah, so on the fashion sense, so you had that,
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you had the you know, the lifestyle, the staying up, the dancing
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thing, the being into music thing, the being into soul and knowing about
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you know, American records and music and being an audio file. But then
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it was also the fashion thing with the suits. And then also like the
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park a situation, then you had the scooters, right, the whole scooter
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thing. Scooters were really affordable. I believe how it worked, I can't
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quite remember, but I believe how it worked is that they were either both
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cheap to license and cheap to park, and cheap to buy these you know,
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Lambretta scooters and vespas and stuff like this. So so it was a
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scooter culture. And then on the scooters, you know, they would put
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on the all the extra lights and all the extra mirrors and stuff like that,
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so you would you would trick out your scooter. And then the rockers
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were the ones with the more the motorcycles. So there was this maud culture
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versus the rocker culture, and they clashed. They were different things. Maud
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was more in the city culture and the rockers were more like from the outskirts
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sort of thing. The Rocks were into fifties rock and roll, and the
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Mods were into, I guess, building on this soul thing, but creating
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their own rock and roll with the faces the Who and the Kinks sort of
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thing. And then that all with the Who being there, this all comes
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into Pete basically writes a story about his own past and and kind of the
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birth of the Who but Maud culture at the same time. It's also a
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modification of the term schizophrenia. So quadrophenia means the character. Also they're parts
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of each of the four members. Yeah, so essentially what happens in this
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is uh is our main character, Jimmy. He sees the Who. He's
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he's going through a whole disillusion disillusionment with the whole this whole Mods situation.
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He's he has some setbacks. He he basically you know, he's fighting with
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his parents. He's he realizes he has to get a job, and he
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gets a job as a as a dust man, like a garbage man.
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He sees the Who, he's kind of disillusioned with the Who, but then
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he's following the Who. It's kind of a love hit relationship with the band,
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and there are elements of his personality in him, and in Pete's story
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he represents that by having like a theme song per each guy kind of thing.
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And then as the story progresses, you know, he recks his scooter.
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He he revisits the glory of Brighton and the you know, the big
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Brighton the Beach riots sort of thing. He realizes that one of the mods
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that he looked up to is now just a lowly bellboy, and then he
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goes through It's interesting at the end of it. There's this ambiguity that's left
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with the story in that, you know, does Jimmy commit suicide or not,
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or does he have a reckoning or does he decide that he needs to
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grow up sort of thing. There's the you know, the whole album's overcast,
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the whole scene is overcast. There's a there's a really nice booklet that
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comes in the album that has a lot of pictures that helps you along with
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the story. There's the lyrics. There's a little bit of a kind of
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explanation by Pete in there as well. But yeah, at the end,
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he basically, uh, kind of steals. Pilfers is probably a better word
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for it than steals. He takes this boat and rows out to the rocks.
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You know, the weather's bad, there's waves and all this stuff.
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But then does he return. What happens when he returns, which is different
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from what happens in the movie. So yeah, to answer your question,
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yeah, it's it's pretty neat. Schizophrenia quadrophenia. It's it's a really neat
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sort of title that they put on this thing. And and it's like,
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is Jimmy a composite of these of these guys? And is Jimmy basically influenced
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by other people because he doesn't have much of a personality of himself. So
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he's seeking himself through all these these disillusioned looking back and realizing that the mod
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thing wasn't as magic as he thought it was. And how about the album
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cover that's is that Jimmy on a scooter on the cover. Yeah, that's
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a really neat, neat shoot there. And yeah, the whole the whole
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shoot for the booklet. Everything was expensive on this, right, and then
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later on the movies, you know, expensive and rushed and all that as
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well. But yeah, the booklet itself was a pretty expensive shoot and and
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it looks like a movie in itself. So that's yeah, that's him there,
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and you've got you know, the nice, really cool, dramatic black
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and white look of it, and the you see the mirrors and then you
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you are also get the the reflections of the members of the guys from the
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Who in the mirrors, so you've got you've got the whole double triple quadruple
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meaning of Jimmy and the mirrors symbolism. You know, he's he's in there
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and he's in these songs. So so yeah, very very cool album cover
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as well. The music overall. Obviously we have lovering or media is on
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there. The Real Knee is another one that's a classic rock radio staple,
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I would say, or close to that. The ending of it that can
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you see the real Me? Do you noted in the book that that's that's
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all his multiple personalities. I thought that was interesting that you noted that.
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I never even thought about that. Yeah, it's it's it's pretty cool.
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I mean, there's a lot of the funny thing about this album is it
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doesn't have any massive, massive hits on it, you know, the big
11:15
who anthems, you you know, the real Me is definitely one that you
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would pick out, you know, I don't know, maybe five fifteen,
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I guess suppose as well. Here's some of these. Yeah you hear and
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I don't. I don't like horns in my Who arrangements. I could.
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I could do without John Entwistle ever bringing that stuff in. But the real
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Me is kind of a big one. WASP covered it later on, right,
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But yeah, that the big dramatic closer Lover Rain or Me is is
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kind of the big one in here. I really like I'm one. I
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mean, I'm a sucker for Pete's voice and his writing and these mellow acoustic
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guitar songs. But the music overall in this album it's it's a bit of
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a funny one. It's it's I find it to be really sober and level
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headed and conservative. I like that quality and I don't like that quality at
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the same time. It's very This is a very uniform album. The production
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on it is workmanlike who. It's like not particularly dynamic, you know,
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it's pretty mid rangey and workmanlike. I mean, most Who is like this,
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I suppose, although I think Who by Numbers has has really good production
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on it. But yeah, it's it's you know, for a double album.
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It really has this unity about it, and I like the way that
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they haven't really broken things into you know, which you get in concept album's
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short spoken word things or short instrumental interludes. I mean, it's basically a
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bunch of songs and they all stand together really well. There's only two instrumentals
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on it, which is kind of good too. You know, you've you've
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got Quadrophenian and the Rock on here. Yeah. I find the album to
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be one that people either put it at the top of their WHO rankings when
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you do these shows, because it is such a big statement and it's a
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really good solid story. But people are not I think even the even the
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people who put it at the top of their rankings are not putting it there
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because of of you know, a bank of particularly amazing songs. People generally
13:15
can't remember the songs that well off of it. It's it's more because of
13:18
the grand statement of the thing and that it is a really good, solid
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story. But yeah, it's it's one that and then a lot of people
13:28
will be intimidated by it and not put it particularly high. But you know,
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Who's Next is generally the album that that wins. I think there's pretty
13:37
much a consensus on that it didn't do very well in the beginning, or
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it did well, but it's actually got more popular over the years with the
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fans and the critics. I do remember seeing the tour in ninety seven when
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they brought back the Quadraphenia tour. It was a slow build on this album.
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For some reason, it wasn't received as well as it's now looked back
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on today, at least, I don't think I could be. Yeah,
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Well, part of the problem was, you know, on tour of these
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songs are unfamiliar. The story's unfamiliar, as Pete likes to complain, the
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story was a little foreign to American audiences because this whole mod thing didn't happen
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in America at all. Uh. And then you know, the band was
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in rough shape. There's a lot of drugs and alcohol still is very stressful.
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There was they were experimenting with tapes. You had to play the tapes
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and sometimes that stuff screwed up, and that drove Pete nuts, you know,
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And then I do love this whole mod Revival situation in the book.
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You know, the book is is a big you know, to make a
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book on one album, you have to have some preamble and some post amble
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and all that stuff, and uh, and I like, I really enjoyed
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doing doing the stuff on the MOD Revival situation because the Mod Revival basically came
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down to two things, The Quadrophenia movie and the Jam. There wasn't really
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much besides that, you know, from the Jam it goes way down to
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smaller bands like the Chords and the Purple Hearts and uh, what's What's a
15:01
secret affair? But really there there really wasn't much to speak of it,
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and most of it wasn't that good. I mean, I like the Chords,
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I love the Jam. The Jam is amazing, and the Jam,
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you know, the Jam pre dates the Quadrophenia movie. But the Jam even
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got you know, I think a good a good slingshot effect from the movie.
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But the movie was well done, well received. Sting is in it.
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Sting, you know, plays plays the Ace, the Ace face guy.
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You know, that got a lot of notoriety and credibility for it.
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But the movie is just just really well done, and of course they do
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a Quadrophenia soundtrack album Keith just Died. You know, there's a lot of
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there's a lot of storyline there to there to go with this, uh,
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this whole situation, I believe around that time you get the kids are all
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right call, you get a lot of compilation sort of stuff coming out around
15:50
this time. It's a bit of a confusing story. Uh and then they're
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quickly back with face dances, right. So, but but yeah, you
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know, you you get you get the soundtrack, which is a little you
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know, it's it's basically the Quadrophenian album with a with a few few uh
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you know, pretty material changes. But the movie itself was was really well
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put together. It hasn't has kind of an alternate ending to this. It's
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it's got the dramatic you know, uh where where where Jimmy is is like,
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you know, obviously distraught and he's he's riding his his scooter towards that
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cliff and then you see the scooter flying off in slow motion sort of thing,
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and and you wonder what happened. So it's it's kind of like it's
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got that parallel with the with the with Pete's story and that he leaves it
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in a nice semi ambiguous place, and the movie does the same thing,
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but it's a different sort of ambiguous, uh place. There's a little hope
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to it still, right, Yeah, was this when things start to start
16:53
to crack within the band in other words, that they're they're not getting long
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altimate. This is I think the album where didn't somebody throw a punch at
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Pete through a punch at Roger or vice versa. Yeah. Yeah, there's
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there's a lot of fighting going on. There's problems with Keith, there's problems
17:08
with money. There's problems with management, you know, that's the other thing.
17:14
And Chris Stamp. Yeah, and the studio thing. There's a lot
17:17
of growing pains there, you know. And there's the stories of Pete being
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out with his dad, you know, getting found sounds, you know,
17:23
getting seagulls sounds and all this sort of stuff and waves. But yeah,
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basically the the you know, the problem is these guys, unfortunately they had
17:34
pretty big egos, I would say, you know, it's it's almost like
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the they're inheriting that whole cream mantle from the sixties. They all of them,
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all of them are are acting like and feeling like big rock stars essentially,
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especially I would say I would say Keith and John Pete's definitely a real
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creative, like he's just the genius, but he has those tendencies as well.
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He has the ego tendencies as well. I think Roger does. So.
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So they're all fighting and they're just spending money like water. I mean,
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I mean everything that they're just spending. They aren't really keeping track of
18:15
how of you know, where the expenses are going. They're doing this studio.
18:19
At the same time, seventy two was a pretty inactive year. You've
18:23
got you know, the crossover with working on the you know, the soundtrack
18:27
that the Tommy situation is happening there. You've got you know, a couple
18:33
of songs, You've got Relay coming along, but just to keep the band
18:36
together. So this, so this whole album was you know it it's still
18:41
a whirlwind of activity and trauma and drugs and alcohol and money being spent and
18:49
uh and you know, the record company not being run very well and they're
18:53
trying to make this double album. There's technology pets in there, you know,
18:59
being a pioneer with with these various synthesizers in his house and stuff like
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that, right, and so he's he's coming up with things that that that
19:10
are new and uh, and things are breaking down all over the place.
19:12
But you know, they they get the record out and they move on.
19:15
We don't see another record from him for for two more years, right,
19:18
yeah, Ramport Studios right Battercy London. Construction is literally going on while the
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band is recording. Literally, yeah, exactly. And there you reminded me.
19:29
There's the there's the big water leak situation where water pours in through the
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roof and all this stuff. Right, so yeah, there's there's a lot
19:37
going on. But uh, but yeah, they get this out, and
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I mean, I guess fortunately, Like I say, I almost feel like
19:45
what held this together is that the story was was linear and structured and easy
19:52
to understand, and it just it just kept them moving from point A to
19:56
point B on the thing. And yeah, I just I just think they
20:02
come out with it with an album that is uh, the strength of it
20:06
is more so the story than the music. I mean, the music is
20:08
essentially you know the one thing I say about the Who all the time.
20:14
And I think I did a I did a podcast episode of my history and
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five songs that Barton pop off on bands that were a band. I think
20:22
I call the bands of individuals, right, And the idea is that the
20:26
who are almost like the poster children for the idea of when you listen to
20:32
the who you are, it's like you're listening to four guys that are in
20:37
four separate corners of a very large room. This is not a unified army
20:41
of a band. They are they able to make that well, they make
20:45
it work because well, usually when the sum is bigger than the parts you
20:52
are thinking of of something that comes out as a unified force. So so
20:59
this is more like, uh, it's more like all of the parts are
21:03
interesting, and you can listen to all the parts on their own. You've
21:06
got You've got this this drummer who's kind of like a bill Ward figure in
21:11
that he's he's clumping things around the guitar parts and he's kind of playing lead
21:15
drums. You know. One of the funny stories, and it's mentioned in
21:18
there, but but the way Keith's drums were were arranged like he would have
21:23
two he would have a row of tom toms and then a row of tom
21:26
tom's behind those Tom Toms rather than everybody else puts them in a row,
21:30
no matter how many of them they have. And one of the guys I
21:33
think it was John, described Keith's drumming style as as skiing because because like
21:40
you know, put pushing your polls like this, so he'd have to go
21:41
forward to Tom's and back to Tom's, and forward to Tom's and back to
21:45
Tom's. So you had Keith doing that. You had John as as well
21:49
as you know, legendary as a super busy bassist. You had Pete,
21:56
who is kind of like a noise nick on the guitar, but he made
22:00
kind of like polite small noises, whereas Keith was making a lot of noise
22:03
and John was making a lot of noise. But but Pete was almost like
22:07
a like a hummingburger or a robin or something with his noises. He he
22:11
he was like even you know, little darting noises and stuff. So he
22:15
made he made licks more than he made riffs. He played rhythm guitar and
22:19
he played and he played licks, but he didn't particularly ever play riffs.
22:23
That's the funny thing about Pete. And then obviously he's a he's a co
22:27
lead vocalist. He's the mastermind of all this stuff. Beautiful acoustic guitar on
22:33
this album as well, and of course he's this pioneering, crazy mad scientist
22:38
synthesizer. And then you've got Roger on top of it all with his hauler.
22:42
You know, Roger's kind of like he's got these these this very distinct
22:48
but it's a gruff voice, but he he puts that gruff voice into different
22:51
gears, so you get that out of him. And he is famously the
22:56
the actor who's acting out these these words, and Pete's somewhat writing these words
23:02
even for this actor who is Roger. So so that's the funny thing,
23:07
and you are getting that across this album. But when I think of all
23:11
these songs as a conglomerate, I I can't help but think there's there's kind
23:15
of a there's kind of a uniformity that happens over over time on them where
23:22
you're not feeling you're not feeling the same uh chaoticness of styles or volume levels
23:30
that you feel on other WHO albums or granted, I think you're feeling a
23:36
lot of that because of you're getting you know, a lot of WHO albums
23:38
over time, and you're getting different productions and things. So the Who from
23:42
pre Tommy is a very different band. It's it's more of like a twee
23:47
sixties band, even though they can make a lot of noise. But but
23:51
yeah, I think you get you get the Who's signature all over this album,
23:55
but it's it's compressed into a little little less of a dynamic range of
24:00
that craziness, a little off the top, a little off the bottom.
24:03
Yeah, I'm still amazed. I think I think of led Zepplin two.
24:07
I'm amazed though that you have four individual extremely talented guys and they could come
24:12
together to make a song that is as good as they are, because I
24:17
would think that the song sacrifices because of it, but they it works,
24:22
It works. It's amazing, you know what, Eric, I really I
24:25
really wonder if the Whose songs are that good. It's almost like we are
24:32
more it's almost a little more like jazz, where we are looking at the
24:34
performance and we're focusing we want to watch this guy. This time we listen
24:38
to this song, next time we listen to the song, I'm just gonna
24:41
listen to that guy A good buddy mine. Ralph Chapman said that one of
24:45
his music teachers once, and I thought this was a great comment that when
24:49
you're analyzing an album, you should go through an album that way. Go
24:52
through the whole album. Listen to just the vocals, go through the whole
24:55
album, Listen to just the guitar solo, Listen to just the drums,
24:57
Listen just the production. And it's almost like when you listen to The Who,
25:03
you can do that with these songs. They come together. But I
25:07
but it doesn't feel it never feels like a perfect puzzle. It just it
25:11
feels like a lot of the bolts and screws are loose all the time.
25:15
So so the So Who songs just kind of clank down the road and it's
25:19
super charming. But I wouldn't say there's a massive strength of song. Uh.
25:25
And I wouldn't say there's a massive strength of production. I don't think
25:27
you ever get unity. You just get this charming, fourheaded beast clanking down
25:33
the road. And that's what's interesting about The Who. We mentioned the real
25:37
me. I'm always zeroed in on John Entwistle on that track. That's that's
25:40
my favorite en Twistle track. Yeah, and uh, and I believe that's
25:44
one of these ones where, well, I'm sure there's a lot of this
25:48
on YouTube, but you can go listen to people just play those I think
25:52
I remember related tracks, Yeah, isolated or or you get a guy sitting
25:57
down and playing perfectly those parts and you go, wow, that that is
26:02
super interesting what they did there, right, Yeah, so yeah, but
26:06
that's a perfect example of this whole thing about how it's uh, it's it's
26:11
just it's just this this weird foreheaded thing of people seemingly pulling in different directions,
26:18
but you know, they do have somewhat of a blueprint to get them
26:22
from A to B, and they have to do it. By the way,
26:25
I found the Skier quote, John, this is from your book.
26:27
John contributed one of the more insightful things about Keith, saying that Keith had
26:32
two sets of Tim's because he moved his arms forward like a skier versus left
26:36
to right like a normal person. Yeah. Is he the first drummer to
26:41
not keep time necessarily? Is he the first to do that in rock and
26:45
roll? I don't know. I I honestly, I I kind of feel
26:49
like you get this out of Mitch Mitchell and Ginger Baker anyways, and then
26:55
Keith Keith is right in there at the same time doing this. I mean,
26:57
you you watch that what is it Railway Club? That that amazing footage
27:02
of them, you know, when they were you know, Kit and Chris
27:04
were thinking of doing this documentary thing and you see the footage of that band,
27:08
and it almost reminds me of the damn you know, Rat Scabies.
27:12
Rat Scabies doesn't like when you compare him to Keith Moon, believe it or
27:15
not. But but I mean, he does seem Keith Moon like to me.
27:19
But but you know, he was a super explosive guy always, so
27:25
so he's he's one of them. But you know, time keeping, I
27:27
guess timekeeping is something that that happened more in pop in the sixties, but
27:33
it became more in fashion, I suppose when you get into seventies. So
27:37
that's why as a kid, The Who always sounded kind of old and hapless,
27:41
right, just like the Rolling Stones sounded sounded like like a little bit
27:47
you know, you look at them and go, oh, it's aren't they
27:49
charming? Making this uh this this silly small twee music and not really getting
27:56
much of anything, right, But everybody loves them. And they're a huge
28:00
and anyways, and the Who, I kind of feel that way about two
28:03
the guys in the band were not happy with the sonics of Quadrophenia. What
28:07
were they unhappy with? I mean in the book you say you wouldn't even
28:11
notice it unless someone points out the problems. Is that just a musician thing
28:15
where they're seeing hearing things that nobody else would. Yeah, you know,
28:18
it's so it's nineteen seventy three. There are better sounding albums. I mean,
28:23
they are the Who Is. They're they're kind of like, uh,
28:26
they're a band from the past already at this point, and they do sound
28:30
old school, you know. There there is Dark Side of the Moon this
28:36
year. There is Montrose Montrose this year. There are some really good sounding
28:41
records. Right, So I think it's it does sound old for its day,
28:47
but it is so uniquely The Who. It's pretty similar to me to
28:52
Who's Next? And like I like I say, I think Who by Numbers
28:55
does sound better. But even up into Who Are You, Pete maintains that
29:03
ethic. I mean I think he maintains he maintains the ethic of analog sounds,
29:10
capturing John en Twistle a certain way. Capturing Keith Moon a certain way.
29:15
I think it changes for face dances, and it's hard where you have
29:19
the significant change in the drummer. But I think he still records modestly.
29:26
I think Empty Glass still sounds modest. All the best cowboys have Chinese Eyes.
29:30
On the other hand, is a very high fidelity album. I think
29:33
that's probably the first totally uncharacteristic album you get out of him where he's really
29:41
trying to be ambitious and sound very modern. But if any of the particular
29:45
members don't sound great on this album, I don't hear it. I think
29:48
Pete captures himself fine with electric, with acoustic, with the sense I think
29:55
Roger. There's no problem with Roger. I think I think Keith. You
30:00
know. To get to get Keith sounding good, I think you have to
30:04
not do anything too crazy with any of this sounds, not the bass drum,
30:08
not the tom's. You know that his tom's always did sound a little
30:11
flat and cardboardy. But I think you have to do that because he's hitting
30:15
so many different things. I think the symbols sound fine, and I think
30:22
you know, generally speaking, you get you get a good buzzy John Entwistle
30:26
sound on here as well. So there's there's really nothing really to complain about
30:29
on it. It's just a musician thing. Musicians are perfectionists. Yeah,
30:33
I mean they obviously all through this whole thing, they had various things to
30:37
complain about. But you know, everybody's tired, everybody's hung over, everybody's
30:41
drunk, right, So there's you know, there's always going to be problems.
30:45
The book done rock Podcasts. We'll be back after this. This is
30:51
the opening verse to the track The Punk and the Godfather. You declared you
30:55
would be three inches taller. You only became what we made. You thought
30:59
you were chasing destiny calling you only earned what we gave you. You make
31:03
a really interesting observation in the book, and I'm going to read it.
31:07
He's a next level music fan that sees himself reflected in the Who talking about
31:11
Jimmy, although he's not exactly the bigger fan. Really that makes sense because
31:15
he's not all that much a fan of himself either. He's cagy enough on
31:19
music to see the band's strengths and weaknesses, and he sees through the fame
31:25
and realizes that much of rock and roll legend baking is based on lies to
31:30
me. That sounds like Pete Townsend talking about himself, the band, and
31:34
the Who fans all in one song. And it's interesting. I mean,
31:38
I've noticed this with fandom in general. It's like it's like the more you
31:42
become a fan of a band, you eventually cross a threshold where you find
31:48
yourself mostly just complaining about that band because the you know, you've had so
31:52
many of the stories you know, shot down about you know, I noticed
31:56
this with Kiss fans a lot, right, there are mega, mega Kiss
32:00
fans out there that know everything, and as soon as you know everything,
32:04
you know, you find yourself basically complaining about a lot of it. Metallica
32:08
fans, Van Halen fans, it's all kind of the same. So that's
32:12
so that's a neat thing about Jimmy. You know, he thinks he wants
32:15
to be a rock star himself. But yeah, then then he you know,
32:19
you know, bring in the don't meet your heroes thing, all all
32:22
that sort of stuff. You pull the curtain back and this this little little
32:27
guy and you realize, oh, this is all smoking mirrors. Yeah.
32:30
I don't know if that's cynical or realistic. Well, and the other thing
32:34
about Pete. I think that's kind of interesting, is that he is such
32:37
a creative and I think he's one of these guys who realizes you really have
32:42
to put in the time, you have to put in the hours, so
32:45
you know, if if there's a if there's a you know, he he
32:47
thinks what he's doing and rightly so is very serious. And you know,
32:52
you you hear the the apocryphal stories of the Marshall you know, the Marshall
32:57
Stack situation, the invention of the Marshal Stack where it's like people people were
33:01
talking too much and not listening to what we were doing, so I had
33:05
to be louder, right, kind of thing. But I think Pete also,
33:08
you know, would dispel the dispel the notion that it's that it's all
33:14
inspiration, because there is a lot of perspiration that's got to go into it
33:17
as well. So he so he's the guy just just quietly toiling away,
33:22
you know, inventing things when he has to, and and coming up with
33:25
all this stuff. He's he's absolutely one of one of my rock heroes.
33:30
He's he's uh, you know, I almost I almost look at him as
33:34
more of a a literary genius than even a musical genius, but he has
33:38
to do all these musical things. He's the ultimate musical director, that's for
33:42
sure. He's that kind of guy. But also I think what's really important
33:47
about Pete is just what he does lyrically, is I mean, I I
33:51
often if I was forced to rank WHO albums and Pete albums altogether, I'm
33:55
pretty sure I would put empty Glass at the very top. All the best
33:59
cowboys have Chinese eyes, and then some WHO albums would start showing up.
34:01
Do you think Roger Daltrey and this could have changed over the years from the
34:06
start of the Who too now, because I think he views his relationship with
34:09
Pete differently now. But it had to have been frustrating for him to have
34:15
to rely on Pete Townshend to come up with the music and the lyrics the
34:20
whole story of Roger. I mean, I just that that is a conundrum
34:23
to me. I just I just feel sometimes like I look down on people
34:30
when they're not writing their own lyrics and stuff. Like I feel this way
34:34
a little bit about Elton John, you know, with Bernie Toppen kind of
34:37
doing it all and and it's always bothered me. I don't like when people
34:42
do a lot of cover songs either. So it does bother me that he
34:47
didn't write more. I kind of wish he would write more because I'm always
34:52
distracted by a lead singer who is singing somebody else's words, right, the
34:55
fact that he's an actor and he's singing. He's a singer, you know,
35:00
generally speaking, generally speaking, Uh, it seems sensible that people have
35:06
jobs. They have certain jobs and bands and this, uh and this,
35:09
this just wasn't one of his jobs. But I kind of wish he was
35:14
more involved as well. You know John Entwistle is he can be pretty involved,
35:21
right, And he can write lyrics and he can sing, and he's
35:22
the you know, the the so called genius with arrangements right to brass arrangements
35:29
and things like that. He can play multiple instruments. But yeah, I
35:31
don't know when I when I hear Pete talk about Roger, I feel like
35:38
sometimes it's a it's a case of you know, she doth protests too much
35:44
sort of thing where he's trying to he's trying to put even more light and
35:49
depth and into intellectual sweat into explaining Roger's role than there really is. Like
35:57
like he tries to paint it as as this magical Oh, I have this
36:01
this great, this great persona that I'm writing for and I'm speaking through Roger
36:07
and all this sort of stuff, when when it's more like you're you're kind
36:12
of the guy just just you're you're the genius behind all of this stuff.
36:15
Uh, and Roger's kind of this mouthpiece there. So I don't, I
36:20
don't know, I'm I'm ambivalent about that, that whole thing that when I
36:23
hear Pete talk about Roger, he's he's trying to increase the level of Roger's
36:30
usefulness and uh, and almost like there's a there's a savvyness of doing that
36:35
because there's only two of them left, and when they go out as the
36:37
who, there's just there's just those two guys. But Pete, Pete is
36:40
just so much more integral to the creative part of it that it's always kind
36:46
of bothered me. Yeah, do you like any of Roger's solo work?
36:50
No, particularly, there's a lot of covering going on there, and again
36:53
there's a there's a lot of not writing going on there. So but After
36:58
the Fire was a hit, but Bran wrote it. Yeah, Yeah,
37:01
it's it's it's just it's it's more of the Pete stuff more than anything.
37:05
And even the Pete stuff I coalesce, I come down on those two albums,
37:09
and White City more so than some of the conceptual things, and Psycho
37:14
Derelict and and you know, rough Mix with Ronnie Lane and Who's What?
37:20
What is it? What's the first one called Who's First? I think so
37:22
with the one reason in the boiler suit thing, right right. But but
37:28
the funny thing is about with Pete, it's like there's so much to explore
37:30
because there's so much crossover with the Who, and and that happens with Scoop
37:35
and all this archival stuff, right that that basically you know, you're you're
37:40
you're kind of reminded through these these uh these crossover, the these overlapping albums
37:46
that whose songs are Pete songs and Pete songs are Who songs, and uh,
37:52
it's just takes like switching out or switching in one or two members and
37:54
all of a sudden it's something else. But so much of it is is
37:59
basically Pete and and and yeah again, I just I just love that that
38:05
this story is so is so is so relatable and interesting, and it's got
38:10
little sub narratives and subplots in it, but but none of it is too
38:15
complicated that you can't figure out. Barton pop Off back on the podcast.
38:19
This time we're talking about his brand new book, The Who and Quadrophenia.
38:22
Let's talk a little bit more about John and Twistle, Doctor Jimmy. That's
38:27
a classic jekylin Hide story. When Jimmy drinks that gin, the monster comes
38:30
out a reference to John and Twistle. Yeah, I've heard that about John
38:35
for sure. I never knew he was that much of a party or until
38:38
he passed away, and then people all taught all these stories because he's a
38:42
really quiet, reserved guy and having all those basses and the materialism and you
38:47
know, he just he just seemed like your your ultimate rock star with all
38:51
kind of the bad rock star habits. Yeah, and he couldn't stop.
38:54
He could not stop. You know, that's just Pete Townsend said. We
38:57
wanted him to just finally you get to that point where like I'm past all
39:00
that, but he couldn't. Yeah, and the ostentatiousness, and you know,
39:04
I havn't a havn't have you know, surrounded by riches all the time.
39:07
And yeah, I think he had a big ego on him as well.
39:10
I don't like most of his you know, a lot of people have
39:14
a soft spot for his you know, Boris the Spider and all these kinds
39:16
of songs. Right, But I've I've never really liked his material that much.
39:22
I liked, I like sort of the you know, the morbid sense
39:25
of humor in that. But but when I listened to those John end Twistle
39:29
solo albums, I'm just I'm just not into them. Let's wrap it up
39:32
with the last song, love Rain or me only Love can Make It Rain.
39:37
Those six words spell out the moral of the entire album. You say,
39:40
in the book, what is Pete Townsend talking about here? Only Love
39:44
can make It Rain? You know? To me, it's almost like the
39:49
weird thing about this story is it's not about love at all. Really.
39:52
I mean, it's got it's got a slight sub narrative with a love interest
39:57
in it, but it's it's almost like Pete's putting a layer of his spirituality
40:02
on this whole thing. Mortality, immortality, not not not so much immortality,
40:08
but mortality. I just I just feel like there's unfinished business. He's
40:15
a very spiritual guy. He's spiritually sort of conflicted. But it's it's not
40:20
particularly an album about love, but yet he ties it up with this and
40:25
he just he just at the very end almost like adds an extra layer of
40:30
complexity to the thing. What's this about Quadrophenia suffering from the great polyvinyl chloride
40:36
shortage of late nineteen seventy three early nineteen seventy four. I recall here,
40:40
I've I've had people like Alice Cooper and Geezer Butler tell me stories about the
40:46
vinyl shortage as well. There were albums that were delayed coming out, you
40:52
couldn't get reprints on. It was hard to get a copy of Quadrophenia when
40:57
it first came out because of it. Yeah. This sold during the whole
41:00
you know OPEC crisis and all that, right, Yeah, OPEC caused oil
41:04
crisis and exploding demand for PVC piping and construction. Yeah. Who what a
41:09
thought? Yeah? Yeah, So so there's all these nooks and crannies,
41:15
Like I say to the book, I mean, I'm looking at the table
41:17
of contents right now, and you've got you know, you've got, like
41:20
I say, a lot of preamble about the Mods. I've got separate chapters
41:23
on each of the guys, so little profiles of the guys, and then
41:27
and then whole chapters on each of the sides. But yeah, as you
41:30
get up to it, you've got the movie, You've got the soundtrack album,
41:32
the Mod revival, chart sales and rankings, to tour date archive,
41:37
and the tour gets super complicated because, like you say, they keep coming
41:40
back with these things, the WHO postcard, Quadrophenia, Yeah, the modern
41:45
day stuff, collectibles, discography, Becau's complicated discography as well. You've got
41:50
eventually the you know, there's a lot of a lot of research materials used
41:55
to make this book. But I mean, Pete does an amazing job because
42:00
he's a writer himself, writer and he was an editor at a at a
42:05
big publisher as well. But he's written a lot of things itself. His
42:07
autobiography is one of the best that there is. But they did an amazing
42:13
massive immersion box set for for Quadrophenia as well, where you put a lot
42:16
of a lot of good information in it. So yeah, it's got a
42:20
it's got a complicated history tour wise and release wise, that's for sure.
42:23
Managed a number two placement in the UK and America, held off Back Home
42:29
by David Bowie's Pinups Covers album and in the US by Elton John's Goodbye Yellow
42:34
Brick Road. Yeah, you hope that readers come out on the other end
42:37
of the book with a new appreciation for Quadrophenia. Did writing the book do
42:42
that for you? Definitely? And that's what I like about these books on
42:45
on one album. I've only done that with this, and I did it
42:50
with Dark Side of the Moon also for Quarto. I love this publisher because
42:53
these Dennis over there is a big music guy himself, and he does a
42:58
lot of the work on all the image I've kind of helped on that on
43:00
this one as well, but they do a beautiful, beautiful job of the
43:05
layout and pictures and stuff. But my whole point of why I like these
43:09
books on one album is is it basically comes out as the ultimate liner note
43:15
set of liner notes right when you're sitting down. Because really, the only
43:17
the only physical product I really appreciate it and like and go out of my
43:22
way to buy these days is massive immersion box sets, you know, hopefully
43:25
on one album sort of thing. Because I love just getting immersed in the
43:30
whole story. And and that is what makes you appreciate these albums more when
43:34
you when you were sitting there, you know, analyzing every little sound,
43:37
every lyric, you know, the whole background of it. And like I
43:42
say, this has got a complicated background, even with the shoots for the
43:45
booklet and then there's a whole movie right to go with it, and there's
43:49
all the differences between that. So yeah, definitely, I think there'd be
43:53
there'd be absolutely no chance that you wouldn't get a new appreciation for the album
44:00
by sitting and reading the book is at the same time as you're listening to
44:05
the album. I'm curious as to where you would rank this album among other
44:09
WHO albums, but also among the greatest concept albums of all time. Wow,
44:15
So I would probably put it as my favorite WHO album really, but
44:22
I'm pretty close with Who by numbers, and I think I would weirdly be
44:27
pretty close even with Face Dances and Endless Wire, which is shotly. I
44:31
just love Endless Wire to death. Do you really like Endless Wire? Yeah,
44:36
It's it's such a rule breaking album. It's so strange, It's got
44:39
the weird little mini opera thing in the the ep adjunct and Pete singing like
44:45
Louis Armstrong, and it's got songs that are strange arrangements and little clips that
44:50
recur later on. It baffles people, right, I just for some reason,
44:53
that album just always connected with me. And in terms of greatest concept
44:58
albums, wow, it literally might be my favorite story wise, although you
45:07
know, another one that I really love is Fear of a Blank Planet by
45:12
by Porcupine Tree. That is an amazing, amazing story as well, and
45:15
that's Stephen Wilson wrote a story about The music is incredible too. But I
45:21
think that's the height of the Porcupine Tree catalog. And that's saying a lot
45:23
because that's a great catalog. But that album is about just kind of the
45:30
lost the lost generation of English kids, uh, you know, stuck on
45:36
the Internet, stuck on their you know, their attention deficit disorder, drugs,
45:42
you know, just feeling dead inside kind of thing. So that's a
45:45
that's a really interesting concept album as well. So I would actually put that
45:51
as a better album overall than Quadrophenia, even that's a that's a masterpiece,
45:55
that one. How about yourself, what can you think of Dark of the
46:00
Moon to me, is is the best that I've ever listened. Yeah,
46:02
i'd put Animals. I even it's universally it's universally relatable to everybody. I
46:08
mean, there isn't one person who can't relate to the theme on that album.
46:13
I mean I even wrote a whole book on Dark Side, which just
46:15
came out, but but not too long ago, because that's also the fiftieth
46:20
anniversary earlier this year. But I prefer I prefer Animals Animals is uh.
46:25
I like Animals even more as a concept album. So that's a good one,
46:29
by the way, I'm I it's it's awful to have to even say
46:31
this, just for those who may not know, because people don't listen to
46:36
new music anymore. Endless Wire was from two thousand and six. That's Pete
46:38
Townsend and Roger Post and Twistles Death. Yeah. Yeah, And what did
46:44
you think Animalize down on Broadway? I'd put pretty high, yes, yes,
46:47
but but oddly so, so if you want to contrast it with this
46:51
one, it's almost like that's a very daunting one because nobody can figure out
46:57
what the story means rightly that one music, right, but yeah, it
47:01
really falls down on the story. It's just too strange. But yeah,
47:06
that's that's one that that that a lot of people will point out. For
47:08
sure, Kilroy was here by sticks, you know. Yeah, people always
47:14
lode, you know, Operation mind Crime. But I'm not. I'm not
47:16
a massive opera right right, right, Yeah, I'm just trying to think
47:22
of some of the other ones that might be uh yeah, Operation mind Crime
47:24
is one. I'm looking through a list here, but I'm trying a blank.
47:28
What do you got on the list there? Yeah, let me see
47:30
here. Greatest concept albums of all time. Let's see what we can find
47:35
here from you discover music dot com. Give them a free plug. Peter
47:40
Hamill, Nadier's Big Chance, Transatlantic, The Whirlwind, Jay Z, American
47:45
Gangs to Her, The Pretty Pretty Things SF. Sorry boy, they got
47:47
some well Green Day's American Idiot. Yeah, that was a big one.
47:52
Joe's Garage. I love that whole thing. Yep, it's really interesting how
47:57
they porch angels right rush, yeah, yeah, I like I like Joe's
48:02
Garage. How they came out with Joe's Garage. I think it was called
48:07
Act One. But then you know, soon after you got an album that
48:09
was a double album that was two and three together. So but musically that's
48:15
not very good. I think, I think I like the thing Fish is
48:20
bizarre. Thing Fish is crazy. I really like that. When though.
48:22
You're a fan of the Jam, right, yeah, Setting Suns. Yeah,
48:27
they didn't really particularly have a concept. Man, they are so good.
48:30
I love the Jam, I love the Jam Morden, I love the
48:31
Who. But yeah, those those albums are absolute masterpieces. So they're a
48:37
mix of the Who, Who in the Kinks almost right, you know,
48:40
they're a little more of the whole working man kind of thing. Right,
48:45
could put Wish You Were Here up there by Floyd, Yeah, I would
48:47
put that super high. Put the Wall super high. I put Amused by
48:52
Death pretty high. I'm a big Roger Waters fan as well. Oh we
48:55
can't well the Beatles, Sargeant Peppers, Yeah, and Bowie's The Rise and
49:01
Fall of Ziggy Star Dust that's another one. Yeah, I'm not a big
49:05
fan of that. Have you ever done an episode on concept albums on any
49:08
of the podcast? Oh, I'm sure. I've done various episodes on either
49:12
our YouTube channel, The Contrarians or or History and Five Songs. But it's
49:15
funny, You're you're you're reading that listen, it's like, Wow, I
49:19
guess I didn't really forget too many great ones because because you're because that list
49:22
isn't coming in too hot, you know, with a puny I'm not going,
49:25
Oh, I forgot about that one. I don't know you got a
49:30
longer list there? Do you got one with like fifty on it? Yeah?
49:31
I bet your Rolling Stone has a fifty? Uh yeah? And while
49:37
I look that up, what did you think of the last two album?
49:40
Because I do like that one, I think more than Endless Wire personally.
49:45
Yeah. I mean it's obviously more conventional, it's broken into songs, it's
49:47
a little rockier, it's a little more who like, Yeah, I think
49:51
it's I think it's a pretty pretty darn cool album. Beads Beads on One
49:54
String is brilliant, beautiful. I love that song, Beads one String.
50:00
Yeah, definitely definitely good album. Fifty Greatest Concept Albums of All Time by
50:06
by Rolling Stone. Let's see Kilroy was here by Sticks. They have a
50:10
fifty. A lot of XTC albums. I didn't even realize their concept albums.
50:16
I can't think of a single XDC album I would call a concept album.
50:20
Yeah, they got queens reiks in their operation Mind Crime Drive by Truckers
50:23
Southern rock opera from two thousand and one forty two Halsey. If I can't
50:30
have love, I want power. Rolling Stone does like to make sure they
50:34
include recently. Yeah, they're they're being pretty contemporary with that, right,
50:37
Elton John Captain fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy. Not an Outland fan,
50:45
I mean Tony Braxon and baby Face at number thirty nine with love, Marriage
50:50
and Divorce. Okay, man, I guess the Mountain goloking around my office
50:55
at all these band things. Well, how about Welcome to My Nightmare Alice
51:00
Cooper is yeah, pretty good, pretty good. Yeah, they have that
51:04
at thirty seven he did from the Inside. He did Welcome to My night
51:07
Mary did Dragontown. He did a lot of conceptual things, the Temptation of
51:14
Iron Maiden, seventh Son of a seventh Son. Yeah, not a very
51:17
good one and pretty loose. That's the one the famous you know, Bruce
51:22
Dickinson told me, and that quotes used all the time, but I you
51:24
know, I interviewed him me. He remembered saying, when that came out,
51:29
I listened to Operation Mind Crime, and I had my head in my
51:31
hands saying that's what we should have done, and we blew it. Yeah,
51:35
you mentioned the Kinks. The Kinks are the Village Green Preservation Society.
51:38
Yeah, they've they've done a few, but they aren't my favorite Kinks albums.
51:43
I like more of your Kinks from the late seventies and early eighties.
51:45
Those are my favorite Kinks albums. Yeah. They do have lamb Lies down
51:50
on Broadway at twenty three. Yeah. Yeah. Brian Wilson. Smile is
51:54
a concept album clydoscopic tour of American pop tinged with whimsical humor that was nearly
52:02
forty years in the making. Brian Wilson, there really aren't that many,
52:06
you know, well, Jethro Tell Okay, So thick as a Brick is
52:07
a good one. Yep, that's I really like Thick as a Brick.
52:10
They have Quadrophena at number eighteen on Rolling Stone, running on empty Jackson Brown
52:15
concept album right, okay, Uh, we're getting a fourtel Radiohead. They
52:22
have a kid A at number fourteen. David Bowie, Rise and Fallow,
52:25
Ziggy start Us thirteen Beatles, Sergeant Pepper, eleven Sinatra in the Wee Small
52:31
Hours at number nine. Wow Wow. The concept former teen Idol hits forty,
52:37
watches his relationship with a fellow celeb, Crumble, and cuts one of
52:39
the first and most oppressed concept albums, My Chemical Romance Rushed twenty one twelve
52:46
at number seven, which is only half a concept album, right, Yeah,
52:51
the other side is not concept. The Who Tommy at number five,
52:57
The Wall number three, Green Day American two, and then yeah, number
53:02
one concept album of all time. Kendrick Lamar, Get Good Kid, Mad
53:08
City. Yeah, okay, so we really didn't forget too many. Just
53:15
literally, aren't that in any good ones? Yeah? The Who and Quadrophenia.
53:19
It's available September nineteenth, so it's not out yet. It will be
53:22
out soon. Whoever books are sold and people can find you online your web
53:25
address, Yeah, Martin popof dot com. Basically anything that is in print,
53:30
I I keep copies. I'm a retailer of my own stuff. I
53:34
signed them all out from here, and there's PayPal buttons there for Canada,
53:37
US International. But yeah, if it's in print, I will have copies.
53:42
I'll have these, you know, sooner than anybody kind of thing,
53:45
and I'll be selling them signing them, selling them all. Right, Martin,
53:49
well look forward to having you back again soon. It's usually sooner than
53:52
later because you are, as they say, prolific. Yeah, thanks again.
53:57
This was a lot of fun. That's it. It's in the box. M.