Latest / Startup Dad / Your Kids Are Smarter Than You. Let Them Govern Themselves. | Matt Fairbanks (Dad of 4, CMO at Island)

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Your Kids Are Smarter Than You. Let Them Govern Themselves. | Matt Fairbanks (Dad of 4, CMO at Island) · Startup Dad

• [00:00:00] Matt Fairbanks: We just happened to have been living, you know, for many, many, many years in Silicon Valley. And we got to the point where we just feel absolutely consumed, and the responsibilities and the pace, we could feel that it was starting to impact our family. We just needed a reset. [00:00:20] Matt Fairbanks: We could see that, some things that were going on with our kids and, and just with our family generally, that we need to justa bit of a reboot. And when we left, we didn't know if we were gonna be gone for a year and be right back or whatever, we went to Jackson Hole, and we've just never left, and here we've been ever since. [00:00:37] Matt Fairbanks: [00:00:37] Adam Fishman: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. What does it take to walk away from Silicon Valley at the height of your career to give your family the reset they desperately need? [00:00:56] Adam Fishman: Today, I'm joined by Matt Fairbanks, the chief marketing officer of enterprise browser and platform company, Island. Matt and his wife made the bold decision to pull up roots from Silicon Valley and relocate their entire family to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, a move that started as an experiment and never ended. [00:01:15] Adam Fishman: He's a dad of four, and that decision to change environments turned out to be one of the most consequential choices they've ever made for their family. Matt is one of those rare parents who has actually codified his family's values into a living, breathing framework, the Fairbanks Family Rules. Today, we talked about why Silicon Valley was living them instead of the other way around, and what finally pushed them to make the leap, the origin story behind each of the Fairbanks family rules and how they emerged one dinner table conversation at a time, why his first rule is to be unoffendable and the generational family drama that inspired it, how the right environment can completely unlock a child's potential in ways you never expected, the concept of type two fun and why craving hard work is a value worth instilling in your kids, and how to teach correct principles without crossing the line into helicopter parenting. [00:02:10] Adam Fishman: If you like what you hear, please subscribe to Startup Dad on YouTube or Spotify so you never miss an episode. You'll find it everywhere you get your podcasts. I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Matt Fairbanks. [00:02:22] Adam Fishman: Welcome Matt Fairbanks to Startup Dad. Matt, it is my pleasure having you on the show with me today. Thanks for joining. [00:02:28] Matt Fairbanks: Pleasure to be here, Adam. Thanks for having me [00:02:31] Adam Fishman: I've been super excited for this conversation. Um, you have a set of six Fairbanks family rules that I'm gonna weave through this entire conversation and,  watch me expertly pull this one off, or I'll do my best. but I wanted to start, wanted to start, before we get into the family, the family rules, you used to be in Silicon Valley many years ago, and you left. Most people spend, like, an entire career trying to claw themselves up the ladder here. And, uh, you were a tech CMO, chief marketing officer here, and then you and your wife were like, "You know what? We need to get out of here." [00:03:05] Adam Fishman: you pulled up your roots, you moved the whole family to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, which by the way, is a beautiful place. I've been there three times. Uh, awesome town. But the reason is that you told me that Silicon Valley was living you instead of you living life and acting, I guess, how you wanted to. [00:03:21] Adam Fishman: So what does that mean? [00:03:22] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, look, great question. I, I have to preface it by saying we love Silicon Valley. Our friends that are in Silicon Valley, and many of them are still there, many of them have left, and so forth. We love Silicon Valley. We love the energy, we love the innovation, love California, love the San Francisco Bay Area, love Silicon Valley. [00:03:42] Matt Fairbanks: As you pointed out, though, we have four kids. My wife and me, we got, we have four kids. And when I said life was living us, and, and look, this could've happened in Austin, Texas or Nashville or, you know, wherever we might have been, but we just happened to have been living, you know, for many, many, many years in Silicon Valley. And we got to the point where we just feel absolutely consumed, and the responsibilities and the pace, we could feel that it was starting to impact our family. And again, I don't know if it was Silicon Valley, I don't know if it... our, you know, inability to manage it well or something, but we just needed a reset. [00:04:22] Adam Fishman: We did [00:04:23] Matt Fairbanks: We [00:04:23] Matt Fairbanks: just needed a reset so that, we could see that, that some things that were going on with our, with our kids and, and just with our family generally, that we need to just a bit of a reboot. And when we left, we didn't know if we were gonna be gone for a year and be right back or whatever, but as you pointed out, we went to Jackson Hole, and we've just never left, and here we've been ever since. [00:04:44] Matt Fairbanks: And [00:04:44] Matt Fairbanks: it's, it's worked out for us [00:04:45] Adam Fishman: Yeah. I guess, uh, you know, cresting the rapids of the Snake River has that effect on people, so. When you decided to leave, was it sort of like a slow boil, like, that just built up over time? Or was there, like, a breaking point or something where you were like, "Ah, we gotta go." Like, "It's time"? [00:05:04] Matt Fairbanks: Well, there was a slow boil, I would say, but there was something that kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back, if you will. [00:05:12] Matt Fairbanks: of our... And I won't name which one because you know, they're, they're, you know, still to protect the innocent or whatever. [00:05:17] Matt Fairbanks: Um, but one of our kids, was really struggling in school. and I just went to go talk to the teacher, the teachers and, the message was, kind of like: "Well, look, I mean, this is a rigorous program, and it's, it's hard to keep up, and some kids are just not cut out for the, the academic rigor. I mean, we are in the heart of Silicon Valley, after all." And I'm just like, "Okay, [00:05:43] Adam Fishman: Yeah you know, my kid and he is not, like, challenged. You know, he, he was struggling with some things and so forth, um, obviously, the, the, the fact that I was ch- chatting with his teacher, you know, academically. Um, but that was kind of the thing that made me realize... [00:06:00] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, and then, another teacher, and another teacher, and another teacher, um, and I'm like: "Look, we just need a different environment [00:06:08] Matt Fairbanks: where the kids can thrive." [00:06:10] Matt Fairbanks: and, and and I spent a lot of time just pondering and meditating and thinking and praying and, and I like, um, talking to my wife and saying: "Let's reboot. Let's go somewhere else, and we might be right back. We'll see." And look, it, it, it worked out really well. And by the way, I will not, uh,be too opaque here with this, um, because of the obvious, you know, which, which, you know, kid we're kind of talking about. But, that kid, we moved to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, [00:06:36] Matt Fairbanks: And fast-forward, um, you know, he comes home from school, a couple weeks later and he's like: "You know what, Dad? I've realized, I'm not dumb." I'm like, " Well, I've been telling you this," like, "Of course you're not." [00:06:48] Matt Fairbanks: And then he, like, scores in, like, the top 1% of the MCAT, goes to medical school. He's now a practicing medical doctor, and is like, kind of the cream of the crop, if you will, in terms of,you know, his,academic abilities. [00:07:01] Matt Fairbanks: It just, it was not the right environment at the right time, um, for, for our family [00:07:06] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you all got reset that you needed there. And, um, at least, you know, what seemed like a temporary change of scenery became sort of the best thing for, for your family. So I guess a good lesson is that sometimes you need to like pull the parachute, and, you know, change, change your environment a little bit, to end up on the right, right track. And good, good for your son now. Someday maybe he'll help me as a doctor. Um, I promised we would weave these family rules throughout this conversation. So most families, I don't think have a written code, but you have six rules. Where did the idea of codifying these things come from? [00:07:44] Matt Fairbanks: So I don't know whereI heard this, but I heard somewhere that, oh, it would be great when you have a family, and this was like before I was married or had a family or anything, to have a family constitution. I don't know. It might've been some, you know, book by Covey or something. I don't know. Um, so I actually have that written, written out, and it's like very thoughtful and kind of long and whatever, but have never really looked at it. and my family doesn't even know that that thing exists, and I doubt my wife even knows it exists. The principle behind it, I think, is a good one. One night, you know, we were sitting at dinner and my family, I mean, there's a lot of stories I could tell you, but I took the opportunity to say, "Okay. Dang it. We are going to create a Fairbanks family rule." Okay? I blurted out the Fairbanks family rule number one. I just exercised my authority as the father of this family and said, "We are going to put this rule into place." [00:08:37] Matt Fairbanks: And that first rule was that we are unoffendable or or be unoffendable. [00:08:43] Adam Fishman: Yep [00:08:44] Matt Fairbanks: and I come from a, a, a family, and again, I'm not gonna, you know, talk about all the specifics 'cause l- some of these people are still living. But there's a situation in our family where we would go and visit extended family, you know, say in a small town, and we'd have to go to like part of the family to eat Thanksgiving dinner, and then have to go to the other part of the family to eat Thanksgiving dinner like again because something happened in the past that had-- somebody had been offended, [00:09:09] Matt Fairbanks: and nobody in the family could really point to what that thing was, [00:09:13] Matt Fairbanks: And then generations, you know, of people have like... Then they're family members, [00:09:17] Matt Fairbanks: So anyway, somebody in our family, like my little family, was getting all offended and getting all, you know, butt hurt about this thing or that thing. And I thought, "You know what? Dang it. It stops here." [00:09:28] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:09:29] Matt Fairbanks: We have a Fairbanks family rule that we are to be unoffendable. I just think that's a great gift that persons can give to humanity is to not carry that, "I'm offended. I'm offended. I'm offended." [00:09:40] Matt Fairbanks: You know, somebody who I respect once said, you know, "He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when it is intended is an even bigger fool." Whether ever the thing is, whether it was intended or unintended, it's just like you're a fool to be offended. [00:09:57] Matt Fairbanks: And, and that resonates with me, and therefore we have a Fairbanks family rule numero uno [00:10:02] Adam Fishman: Ah, I lo- I love that. And I also love, like, sort of that story that you told about like, hey, we've got these like warring factions i- in extended family and like they can't even remember why they don't like each other anymore or like why somebody rubbed somebody else the wrong way, but it's just like generational cruft that's built up and then they just never resolved. [00:10:23] Adam Fishman: It's like the Hatfields and the McCoys can't even remember why they're fighting anymore, you know? That's the origin for number one. So you have... So I'm gonna go all the way to number six, right? Uh, the last one is earn trust, which sits at number six. Um, and so when, when you told me that, like, I would think that trust is supposed to be like the default in a family, why name that as like it's gotta be earned? [00:10:45] Adam Fishman: What, like why frame it that way in your family? [00:10:47] Matt Fairbanks: Okay. Well, all these rules came one by one, and we have six. And the reason we have six is because we don't yet have seven. So I'm sure seven will emerge, eight will emerge, whatever. But six came around when, and I won't say which kid, um, but we were having a little bit of an issue, with the truth. [00:11:04] Adam Fishman: Uuuh [00:11:04] Adam Fishman: Hmm [00:11:05] Matt Fairbanks: it was evident as, as it is to parents, you know, it's like, "What you're telling me is not quite checking out." Um, and I think that the important thing is that if you can understand that preserving the trust and earning trust is a really important thing in life, in business, and so forth. And I was just explaining to this child, you know, that if we can't trust you to be straight here, then all of these other poor consequences are going to ensue. And it's not really about the thing, you know? I didn't even care about the thing, you know, whatever the thing, I don't even remember what the thing was. And this was also at a time at work when this whole idea of trust was coming a lot. "You just gotta trust me. You got, you gotta... Don't you trust me? No, don't, don't... You have to trust this." And, you know, one group or one other group inside the company, that they were doing work that I thought was not up to par or, "You gotta just stay in your lane. Stay in your lane." It's like, well, look, If that's gonna be your lane, you've got to earn my trust [00:12:08] Matt Fairbanks: that, that that's the lane that you've got. So anyway, I just thought that would be a good thing that the trust cannot really just be assumed. I mean, it's great you can start that way, but every single day trust has to be earned. [00:12:22] Matt Fairbanks: The moment that you do something that kind of compromises that trust, it makes everything more difficult in life. So anyway, I think there's another great gift that we can give, is to just behave in such a way that you're always trying to preserve your trustworthiness [00:12:41] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. When you started these family rules, so you said the first one was like, Dad's making the edict. Unoffend- we must be unoffendable. But when you started them, like, and you sort of built them over time, like, did the kids buy in right from the beginning? Did they, like, collectively roll their eyes? [00:12:59] Adam Fishman: Like, what was the, what was the vibe when this was happening? [00:13:02] Matt Fairbanks: I mean, when the first one hit, I mean, we have four kids of varying ages, but [00:13:06] Matt Fairbanks: no, it was like, you know, it's a thing, and dad's really worked up about this. And, then I would kind of reinforce it. When number two came around, you know, we were sitting at the dinner table again, and it's like, "Okay, wait, wait, wait. [00:13:16] Matt Fairbanks: What's this Fairbanks, family rule number two?" And they kind of, they kind of leaned in, you know? Oh, wait, we talked about one, and here comes two, 'cause, you know, my wife and I felt like this is worthy of a family rule. So I don't know. I thought they were kind of curious. [00:13:28] Matt Fairbanks: Neither my wife, nor myself, nor my kids are perfect at living all of them all the time, um, but we try [00:13:34] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Okay. Well, I think it's great that you said that too, that, you know, nobody's perfect at living these all the time. Like, we'll come back to that concept too. Your second rule is add value, which I love. I mean, I love all of your rules, and w- we're gonna go through all of them.but rule number two is add value. [00:13:51] Adam Fishman: What's the story behind adding v- well, first, what does it mean to add value, and, like, what's the story behind that rule? [00:13:58] Matt Fairbanks: Okay, so the story was there were some things going on in our family where too much time was being wasted. and I think that wholesome, you know, play and riding bikes around the neighborhood and all this stuff, that's great. That's not what I'm talking about. But I'm talking about like wasting time and especially with video games, [00:14:20] Matt Fairbanks: It starts to just become a thing that is, entertaining, [00:14:25] Matt Fairbanks: but it's not actually adding value. [00:14:27] Matt Fairbanks: And I'd, I'd gone to business school and, and, you know, like, oh, adding value and value add and all of that, that was, that was all like kind of a, a thing, you know, back when I [00:14:35] Matt Fairbanks: was going to business school, and I just had it, you know, rend into my brain there or whatever. My mom's gonna kill me here, but, one of the examples during this dinner table, you know, conversation about adding value was I made reference to Grandma and Grandpa. You know, it's like, "Oh, it drives me crazy when I see my mom, you know, just sitting there at the computer just playing solitaire." [00:14:56] Matt Fairbanks: Like, like [00:14:57] Matt Fairbanks: my [00:14:57] Matt Fairbanks: mom is a super capable person and, and of course you need a little bit of an outlet or a place. I'm like, there's so many things that one could be doing who's so capable, and you're just sitting there playing solitaire on the computer. [00:15:09] Matt Fairbanks: Anyway, that was one of the examples. and then as my kids will tell you, um, I was at this is the dinner table and I just said... I just grabbed a fork and I said, "For example, this fork that we're eating with, it didn't just appear on the table. It's made of stainless steel and there's a whole process, right, by which that had to get mined and processed and tempered and whatever you have to do s- and then bent and shaped and polished and distributed and..." Anyway, so we went through this whole thing and, and a lot of times when my kids, when we, we talk about add value, in the family now, you know, my kids are grown and they have their own kids now, and I'm a grandpa, but, you know, they'll go and they'll fight a fork and I, "You "Need to add value." [00:15:46] Matt Fairbanks: Anyway, we kind of have fun with it [00:15:48] Adam Fishman: I love, I love that. The fork, it's like the tri- it's like the trident, uh, of the family. But it's a perfect example, right? Like, there's literally a step along every part of that journey is somebody adding value to get that thing from a piece of whatever in the ground into a fork on your table. Like, that's, that is actually the simplest and, like, most straightforward way of thinking about it. [00:16:08] Adam Fishman: Slight pivot for a second. So you just mentioned you went to business school and obviously you're CMO of a very, fast-rising tech company. Like, you gotta be kind of at the top of your game to have that job. But you told me that you were a really terrible student for a long time until, like, halfway through college. [00:16:26] Adam Fishman: So, like, what changed? When did you have to give yourself a kick in the pants? Like, what happened? [00:16:31] Matt Fairbanks: I do think that there is a maturing process that happens as we age. [00:16:36] Matt Fairbanks: I was getting, you know, older. I mean, look, when I say I was a poor student, I sort of skated along high school not really applying myself at all, and did not get particularly good grades. and it just was not a focus. [00:16:52] Matt Fairbanks: I was more focused on skateboarding skateboarding in my front yard I grew up in Southern California, in Orange County The weather was always nice and I would just love to be outside, you know, playing with, friends in the on the streets and so forth. But anyway, my freshman year of college, I hate to admit my grade point average was 1.8. [00:17:10] Adam Fishman: Oh, dang [00:17:12] Matt Fairbanks: And so like, okay, something needs to change here. I called my dad. I'm like, "Dad, I heard that you don't actually have to like to stay in a class if you don't wanna stay in the class or whatever." And like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. You know, it's the first week or the second week. It's no big deal. You don't have to stay in the class." but I missed the details. I'm l- "I'm a freshman in college. [00:17:31] Matt Fairbanks: How do I miss this detail?" But you, you actually have to drop the class. And so like at the end of the semester or whatever, I'm like, "Wait, what's this? What's this F in, in Econ 110?" Seeing that in my freshman year, was just kind of tragic. [00:17:45] Matt Fairbanks: I matured. I kicked myself in the pants a little bit and said, "Look, I need to apply myself and be able to put myself in a position where I can add value." [00:17:53] Matt Fairbanks: and to do that, you know, you need an education, um, whether formal or informal. and yeah, just something changed within me and I did really well after that. [00:18:02] Matt Fairbanks: I mean, I, I started getting good grades and, you know, getting, you know, all A's and, and went to graduate school and, really started to thrive once I got into the workplace because it wasn't quite so contrived when it was in the workplace,uh, like it was in, in school, but it was very applied and it's like, okay, we're on a team. [00:18:20] Matt Fairbanks: We have a job to do. This is exciting. We're competing. And that's just got my juices flowing and I, I, I, I really kinda thrived once I got into the workplace. [00:18:28] Adam Fishman: Do you tell your kids or as they were going through college or getting into college or going through high school, do you tell them that story or did... Like are they aware of dad being sort of like a mediocre student for a while? [00:18:40] Matt Fairbanks: We're transparent. I tell that story, and I am very clear with them to say, "This is not the path you wanna take." and thankfully, I do think that my kids have outpaced me in just about every dimension. I can't think of a single exception where all four of my children have not outpaced me, in terms of where they are at life. That's a great source of satisfaction for me that I see my kids kinda getting it a little bit [00:19:04] Matt Fairbanks: earlier than what I did [00:19:05] Adam Fishman: Okay, cool. Related to what you just said, I'm gonna go over number three, which is exercise anger management. We'll put in that one temporarily. And I wanna go to number four of the family values, or family rules, which is, crave hard work, and you said type two fun as an example of that. [00:19:26] Adam Fishman: And I think, like, the crave hard work is very related to what you just said getting into, your professional life and sort of the juices flowing and, the competition of, like, we gotta grind together to get to an outcome. but you tied type two fun and crave hard together. First of all, what is type two fun? [00:19:43] Matt Fairbanks: My son came home from school one day here in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and explained this to me, 'cause I'd never heard of it either. But apparently there's the, the, the Mountaineer's fun scale, um, which is definitely a thing. And, now that I've been exposed to it many years ago, I hear it all over the place. [00:19:58] Matt Fairbanks: So the mountaineer, or somebody who likes to spend time in the outdoors or whatever, type one fun is having fun in the moment. [00:20:05] Matt Fairbanks: And the example that gets thrown out is uh, riding a bike in nice weather on a sunny day. Type one fun. Or, you know, skiing down a nicely groomed run on a bluebird day. if you know how to ski. Type two fun is fun that is not necessarily much fun in the moment, [00:20:24] Matt Fairbanks: but it is fun in retrospect. [00:20:27] Adam Fishman: Got it [00:20:27] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, and then there is a type three fun that usually involves death or some sort of mortal wound or, you know, something tragic that is [00:20:34] Matt Fairbanks: neither fun now or later. Um, and, and there's plenty of those things that you, you know, read about in the search and rescue feed and so forth. [00:20:42] Matt Fairbanks: Type two fun is where a lot of the magic happens. it's where you're challenged. You know, one of the things that we like to do where I live is like wake up early in the morning, and go hike up to the top of Mount Glory, uh, here at Jackson Hole the top of Teton Pass with skis on our back, you know, with ski boots on, you know, up the boot pack. I mean, that is not particularly fun [00:21:02] Matt Fairbanks: in the moment. You know, the wind can be blowing, it's early in the morning or whatever before work. But, you know, you get up there and it's like, "Yes!" Like, "I did it." And we're high-fiving and, you know, we're hydrating a bit, and then we're skiing down and we're earning our turns. [00:21:17] Matt Fairbanks: Anyway, that's a perfect example of type two fun. And whether that's professionally or recreationally or cardiovascularly or whatever, there's a lot of things that aren't particularly fun in the moment, but they're very satisfying [00:21:32] Matt Fairbanks: and can be considered, quote, "fun" in retrospect. [00:21:34] Adam Fishman: Okay. Sort of like the journey is a destination kind of, uh, kind of fun. What is the hardest piece of Type 2 fun that you've dragged your family along for? [00:21:45] Matt Fairbanks: Look, h- here's the thing. I'm a bit of a wuss. My kids are way more impressive than I am on, on all of these dimensions.When you say that I think about some hikes that we took when, you know, we'd go on a, 12-mile hike or whatever, that involves some little bit of work, and like my kid's like, "Ugh, this is hard. Ugh, this, this." Like I remember one d- one day, um, we were on a hike with... I'll pick on my son, Nate. And Nate, he's a very capable kid, he was maybe, I don't know, 11 years old or 10 years old or something. He's like, "Uh, this is so hard, you know? This is, this is difficult," you know? [00:22:19] Matt Fairbanks: We're on a hike, we're maybe like three or four miles in. Fast-forward, he's now, next month, he's going to Bend, Oregon, to go run in a 100-mile trail race. [00:22:31] Matt Fairbanks: This is, This is the kid that was like, "Oh, it's so hard and this, m-" So anyway, like my kids have figured this out way more than I have, [00:22:40] Matt Fairbanks: You know, this whole idea of type two fun. [00:22:42] Matt Fairbanks: Like, like here's another example, which again, is not something that I dragged my kids into, but my kids got this and then they took it to heart, and then almost too much to heart because sometimes it's like I'll step back as a parent and like, ugh, they're out in the wilderness having type two fun, and then I start to worry about them a little bit. like my son, some of his friends at school here in Wyoming, he's like, "Hey, I'm gonna go hunting. You know, I'm gonna go, you know, deer hunting, or I go elk hunting or, or, you know, bison hunting." So he puts in and he draws his bison tag to And we would go out hunting this bison and like, I don't know what I'm doing. [00:23:17] Matt Fairbanks: I'm like, "How do you know what you're doing, Ben?" He's like, "Oh, YouTube." and, I'm like, my friend, you know, Josh told me this and that and whatever." So anyway, we went out there, it's like about the sixth or seventh time and he actually gets a bison. [00:23:29] Matt Fairbanks: Um, you know, and I played a role there. I was glassing. [00:23:33] Matt Fairbanks: You know, I'm glassing 'cause you had to... You needed a cow tag or a bull tag, and [00:23:37] Matt Fairbanks: so we had to make sure that it was a female bison. And this was in December with big thick coats, and it's not particularly obvious [00:23:43] Adam Fishman: which is a bull and which is a cow, and it's like a felony if you shoot the wrong one. [00:23:46] Matt Fairbanks: But anyway, so I'm glassing. It's like, okay, third one in, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, and now we get over there and it's like, all right, there's a, a bison is laying. Now what? [00:23:56] Adam Fishman: Yeah, weighs like 1,000 pounds. Like what, what are you gonna do [00:24:00] Matt Fairbanks: It was humbling. I've seen this on YouTube. But he just goes in, you know? And, and we, we phoned a friend that had a horse trailer with a, you know, a winch just trying to get it into a horse trailer for some retrieval road and what... Anyway, but, you know, this is not simple, not [00:24:13] Matt Fairbanks: easy, not fun in the moment for sure. But like in retrospect, every time I look at that, bison skull that's hanging, you know, in our living room, I think back to that moment. [00:24:23] Matt Fairbanks: You know? It's just the, an, exemplification of doing something hard [00:24:26] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Oh, perfect example of type two fun. Related to the crave hard work, how do you keep craving hard work from becoming like work is everything? Like how do you draw that balance between, between those things? [00:24:45] Matt Fairbanks: in a word, I would say prioritization. Well, if I can be vulnerable for a minute, and I'm not perfect in all these these things, [00:24:53] Matt Fairbanks: um, as [00:24:54] Adam Fishman: No one, on Startup Dad ever is, by the way. We're always the first to admit. 150 conversations and no one's got this nailed, so it's okay [00:25:03] Matt Fairbanks: what I would do is I'm a pleaser, I like to make sure that the people I'mworking for, that I'm a really good steward and I'm doing my best work and I take great pride in that and so forth. Often, if things are not kind of going like they need to you know, with my own mismanagement of time or whatever, I would kind of make up for it by working super late or working on weekends and just working these, these crazy hours. And if I could be honest, probably unnecessarily. [00:25:31] Matt Fairbanks: And as I've gotten older, I've realized that, okay, there are some priorities... Not everything can be a priority. And I need to, like, be really focused on what really is gonna matter at work and really bring that and really deliver that. [00:25:49] Matt Fairbanks: And same thing on the family front, and same thing on other endeavors that I'm involved in, you know, in my personal time or whatever. I think that leaning in and working hard and being willing to bring that, A game, and not just in terms as measured by hours, but in terms of prioritizing what really matters and spend those scarce hours, bringing your, best,and allowing other priorities to also have their place and bringing your A game there as well to the extent you can. That's what's helped me, and I'm much better at it now than I was earlier in my career. [00:26:23] Matt Fairbanks: One thing that I'll just share that is sort of related to that, forced me here is, um, my dad was my Little League baseball coach. I played baseball as a kid and, and then when my kids started getting a little older, um, they needed a coach, and I was busy. [00:26:38] Matt Fairbanks: I mean, I was busy in Silicon Valley and busy with work and lots of, lots of hours and so forth. But I thought, "You know what? I respect my dad for the time he put in for the North Sunrise Little League, you know, baseball team that he coached." And I raised my hand, and you know what? When 4:30 rolled around at work, I'm like, "I'm gonna have 13 kids on a baseball field- Waiting for me to teach them how to field a ground ball or how to turn a double play or how to, you know, connect with a bat. And I had to get out of there, right? Because that was just not an option. [00:27:20] Matt Fairbanks: I made that a priority. And look, yeah, there were a few days when it was not particularly convenient, but I had to... So anyway, that's what I would say is just figure out what your priorities are, plan ahead and say, "Look, I am gonna coach the Los Altos Mountain View Pony Baseball team," which was the league we lived in. and we had great success, and I would not take that away from that experience that we had with, my sons and, and with those teammates. It was, it was amazing [00:27:46] Adam Fishman: Related to that, I wonder if that's when rule number three, exercise management, found its way into the, uh, into the picture. We have to, we don't have to go down that path just yet. But, um, okay, another relate- So I love that, by the way. A- and, and another thing I wanted to ask you about is, and I think this is probably to type two fun and sort of craving hard work. [00:28:08] Adam Fishman: You have this, I would call, like, adjacent principle around seeking out experiences together with your, with your family. s- You've described a bunch of to me that are very outdoorsy: hunting, skiing, hiking, like all the things, which obviously you live in Jackson Hole, like that's a big part of what you do. [00:28:27] Adam Fishman: Is there an experience that you've done as a family or bulk of the family that you would recommend to people where you're like, "You haven't lived until you've done this thing"? [00:28:38] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, gosh. I mean, a lot of things come to mind that apply to us uniquely. One of the things we love to do, so, so, so, you know, Christmas morning,we just like to fuel up a little bit with a light breakfast, and we love to get out on the ski hill, and we love to ski as a family together on Christmas. There's no lines, [00:28:56] Matt Fairbanks: We just love to spend time out on the slopes and, and Christmas, Christmas morning ski- And then we can go and open presents later, or whatever, and have a nice dinner. [00:29:04] Matt Fairbanks: but just getting out there, skiing, going on hikes, Yeah, a lot of that outdoorsy stuff [00:29:09] Matt Fairbanks: 'cause, 'cause devices have to sort of take a bit of a backseat in those cases. But the other thing that I will also tell you that maybe isn't quite so outdoorsy is just travel. Getting through an airport together as a family and getting on a plane and getting to the hotel and, We were in Italy one time as a family. um, we got to this hotel that didn't have the key cards. It, it was like the old-school keys, [00:29:33] Matt Fairbanks: and they hand us these keys and my kids are like, " How does this work? What, what do you do with this key?" I'm like, "Oh, my goodness," 'cause we live in a place where we, we don't lock our doors and, [00:29:42] Matt Fairbanks: you don't have to use a key or whatever. Um, anyway, that was kinda comical. But no, I, I think I-- mean, we've, we've gone to like Ecuador as a family, all like places in Europe [00:29:51] Matt Fairbanks: And even when we didn't have a ton of like, you know, weren't quite as, you know, fortunate financially, we would always prioritize, going and we, we would, we would, you know, drive to Tahoe or my dad and my, grandpa actually built a cabin, on a lake that sits way up high. [00:30:07] Matt Fairbanks: It's super rural. They finished the cabin in 1951. [00:30:09] Adam Fishman: Whoa [00:30:11] Matt Fairbanks: there's a whole story about a poker game and how the cabin site was won. And anyway, which I, I won't bore you with, but going to that cabin that's super rural or super rustic in this rural area and just having those experiences together, definitely helped bring us together, I think, uh, as a family and have those, great experiences to, connect with each other [00:30:33] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Now I kinda wanna go skiing on Christmas morning in Jackson Hole too. [00:30:39] Adam Fishman: I was in Jackson Hole two years ago. went, uh, horseback riding in Moose, Wyoming, uh, which is right, right up the street. We're gonna deviate a little bit from the rules for just a second, and I wanna talk about parenting philosophy with you. [00:30:52] Adam Fishman: So you have this philosophy that, it's basically like teaching kids good principles and then letting them themselves, sort of like the opposite of helicopter parenting. Is that a perspective that you built over time? Did you always just sort of start out this way? Like, how did that come about? [00:31:13] Matt Fairbanks: When we were living in Silicon Valley, and again, left Silicon Valley and a lot of people did not necessarily fit this profile or whatever, but we, we just observed, that there were a lot of parents that would approach parenting a little bit differently than we did, right? [00:31:28] Matt Fairbanks: Where they would, have the time very structured and there's, you know, six and a half hours of homework and let's hire tutors, and let's be very, focused and,very involved in, all the little decisions. And that's just not really how I was raised. And, I don't know, it's just not how we chose to do it. [00:31:46] Matt Fairbanks: we would kind of look at, at, at other families that chose to do it that way, and it, it may or may not have worked out for them. I don't know. I guess what I'd say to that is, our kids, and maybe we're just fortunate, I don't know, but like, they seem smarter than I am. [00:32:01] Matt Fairbanks: and maybe lacking the maturity, you know, as they grow, but like kids are very capable. And if you can just like get a few principles in them and, I almost feel like they're gonna do a better job with this life thing than I am, [00:32:17] Matt Fairbanks: right? If I'm making their decisions and I'm trying to live it for them, ever since our kids were, quite young, I just marveled at their ability to, to reason and to make decisions and to be independent they've earned trust by and large along the way, and it's like, here you go. [00:32:34] Matt Fairbanks: Like, keep taking the leash, you know? Keep taking the leash because you're, you're doing good things. I don't, I don't judge or, think anybody's necessarily doing it wrong, but, both Trish and I feel like, our kids are worthy of our trust and we're very clear on what the expectations are, it's worked out [00:32:52] Adam Fishman: There's also this, like, argument to be made, and again, like you said, different strokes for different folks. But, like, the idea of, like, a fully rigid structure where the parent is, like, in charge keeping an eye on everything, like, sounds exhausting to me personally. Like, that is a lot, especially if you're doing a lot of other things. [00:33:08] Adam Fishman: And it doesn't mean that you're, like, an absentee landlord anything, or absentee dad. But there's definitely a balance there to be, to be struck, so. You brought this up for just a second, in what you just said, and I don't want to lose it, which is, it wasn't how you were raised with, like, the super rigid structure. [00:33:24] Adam Fishman: We glanced over that topic, but you, you told me that when you were a kid, you were... Basically, if you look back at, at how you were as a kid, you were horrified by how, how much freedom y- that you had, and that your parents had almost no clue about, like, 90% of, of your, of your life. [00:33:40] Adam Fishman: Which, um, and we don't have to go into that per se, but I'm curious if the rules that you have, like, are those a, a continuation of how you were raised, a slight correction from that? Like, how do you draw on your past, your experience as a kid and the rule system that, like, or lack of rule system that kind of governed your childhood into your kids now? [00:34:02] Matt Fairbanks: And look, I think there are some fundamental things that we need to anchor on, and these six family rules have kind of, you know, helped us. And there's probably, you know, there is a much longer list of, you know, kind of expectations and so forth. We keep coming back to these six times and again, and they just provide a little bit of a handy framework for us,you know, as a family. I just think back to my childhood, and maybe it was, as a product of the era in Southern California, and it's like, "Hey, go out, play with the neighborhood kids and do whatever you do. And,when the streetlights come on, it's time to come home." Um, but until then, it's like... Anyway, we would do pretty crazy things, that they would, you know, horrify me. Like, I, I'll just share one little story that we did a lot. and My mom doesn't even know this, but, you know, some of the, the kids that-- on the neighborhood that were, like, older than me and so forth, we, we would, go over the hill and around the thing and, then we would go, like, underneath the freeway. [00:34:54] Matt Fairbanks: in Southern California, the 55 freeway That's the, the, the the Newport Freeway, or I [00:34:59] Matt Fairbanks: I think it's called the Ocesa Freeway now. And there's this big pipe underneath the freeway, right where, where, water and drainage comes through and stuff. And so we're in this this big concrete pipe, and we're like, we're crawling through this thing all the way under the freeway, and then we go through, like, another one, and then we eventually go all the way to the other side of the freeway, and then we-- where we end up? [00:35:19] Matt Fairbanks: We end up at the liquor store because there was a liquor store that had a video game in there that we would play, and then we would, like, use all of our, our money that we would earn by all sorts of nefarious means to go and, like, buy a bunch of candy and, and all manner of... Anyway, I'm just scratching the surface. [00:35:34] Matt Fairbanks: So just the, the amount of freedom that we had was, was, yeah, a little bit horrifying. And I like to think that, we have a little bit better tabs on our, on, on our kids, you know, in the Fairbanks family than, than maybe my folks had. [00:35:46] Matt Fairbanks: But directionally, I like that. And I think that, while it, may not have been the perfect recipe for some of those teachers out in the public schools in Silicon Valley, you know, the recipeto excel maybe in that class, I do think that it, it ultimately, um, for our family anyway, was,kind of proved healthy to, to let the kids explore and to let the, you know, kids kind of touch grass and be able to kind of make their own decisions and, realize some disappointment once in a while, [00:36:15] Matt Fairbanks: um, as opposed to having us protect them or make all their decisions. [00:36:19] Adam Fishman: Yeah. There's an interesting thing there like protecting your kids versus sort of letting them figure things out for themselves and maybe experience some disappointment or make some mistakes. and I'm wondering if you've ever had an example where you sort of saw something coming for your kids, but you kind of let them walk into it just so that they could learn by stumbling a little bit. [00:36:43] Adam Fishman: Or like, I don't know if there's a specific example you have there or if you're like, "Nah, there's just too many things to, to name," but I'm curious about that. [00:36:51] Matt Fairbanks: I mean, obviously if there was something that involved safety, there would be an intervention. As I said earlier, my kids tend to be more adventurous than I am. [00:37:01] Matt Fairbanks: I know that to a person my kids are smarter than I am. And, being able to just observe, and kind of watch and marvel at them doing things that I'm not gonna be doing, and to kind of hope for the best. [00:37:17] Matt Fairbanks: Like, I'll give you one example. Um, this, there's a snake river here, and we love to go and float the snake river, and we got some friends that have rafts, and we'll guide the raft or we'll paddleboard down or, or whatever. but you, you go over like, uh, you know, Big Kahuna Lunch Counter in the Snake River, and you eventually get to this, um, we call it, you know, Jump Rock or, or this place where you can basically cliff jump. [00:37:40] Matt Fairbanks: And, you know, we'll pull the raft over and like I'll climb up, climb up, climb up to this little ledge and I'll, I'll jump off. and then my kids, of course, they're going up to the ledge above that. and then I'm just like, " I don't know about this. They could get hurt. I, I don't know." [00:37:53] Matt Fairbanks: But then you see other people doing it and whatever, and they like, "Okay, fine." You know, I just keep my mouth shut, I just watch it. and then they go up to the one above that, and then they go up to the very top of the thing, and at the top of the thing is a tree. [00:38:05] Matt Fairbanks: And so then they start climbing the tree, and then they scale out on a branch. I mean, at this point it's like... And sure enough, like pew. [00:38:14] Matt Fairbanks: And look, maybe I was being a bad parent, you know? They belly flop and get hurt and, you know, the, all the pressure in their eyes blow out of their head. I don't know what can happen. But like, that's the kind of thing that will test my, uh, ability to let my kids make their decisions and live with the consequences. consequences. [00:38:32] Matt Fairbanks: And you look, I mean, so far, I just sit back and marvel at where their tolerance for risk is and how it's worked out for them in their lives. They're going to achieve more than I have, which is just grabbing me. [00:38:42] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Um, let's come back to the family rules. Number five is be grateful in all things. and you have a really big example of this. You told me this story about when you were on an airplane back, flying back from Europe, an international trip. and at 30,000 feet in the air, you learned that your daughter, who was 13 at the time, and by the way, is okay, so let's just preface this. [00:39:09] Adam Fishman: She's okay. but your daughter was in a horrible car accident, uh, when she was 13, and you're in an airplane. You're, like, pretty helpless. Can you tell us that story? [00:39:21] Matt Fairbanks: Yeah. and I'll clarify just a little bit. So this was back in the day when there was not really connected Wi-Fi on the plane. [00:39:30] Matt Fairbanks: So I was coming back from Europe, and before I got on the plane in Europe, it's like, oh, there was, there was a car wreck. I had heard word that there was some sort of a car wreck. [00:39:39] Matt Fairbanks: I'm late for my flight, and it didn't seem like anything serious. [00:39:42] Matt Fairbanks: and then I, I, I had a layover at, at Dulles. I was sitting in, at Washington Dulles Airport, and I got a phone call from a friend who said, "Have you heard about the accident?" I'm like, well, I heard that there might've been an accident, but, it is no big deal." He's like, "Well, it's kind of a big deal." I'm like... And then my heart starts racing. To make a long story short, there was a Suburban that was like this church group that was going up over a mountain pass, and it was in November, early November. and the driver of the, the leader of this youth group, and, and it was full of, um, a driver, I think there were eight, eight passengers, and my daughter was in the way, way back, like the way, way back of the Suburban. [00:40:21] Matt Fairbanks: and the Suburban, um, slid and went over a cliff, [00:40:25] Matt Fairbanks: rolled over multiple times, went down 200 feet and [00:40:28] Matt Fairbanks: landed in a river. The word I heard was that my daughter and then one of my daughter's friends, who was also in the way, way back were, were the ones that were most badly hurt. [00:40:36] Adam Fishman: Again, I had no concept of what was going on, to the extent of this, but Jeff... I'm getting a little bit emotional here even, like talking about it, but, um I got on the plane in Dulles, and then we were not connected. and I was a mess, [00:40:52] Matt Fairbanks: because I had just heard something about, Life Flight and then had to get on the plane to get home and so forth, and was just praying and, the guy sitting next to me in, in the plane, [00:41:04] Matt Fairbanks: Could not have been more compassionate. He's like, "Hey, man, I can see something's going on. What's going on? Can I be of any help?" You know, and we shared a moment or we shared a flight together. I'll be grateful for him. I will always be grateful for those, the EMS and fire department and search and rescue and medical staff and Life Flight pilots and doctors that were, were, you know, able to, you know, help, my daughter and, and the other, you know, passengers. [00:41:31] Matt Fairbanks: And by the way, everybody lived. Everybody should have died, and everybody, everybody lived, [00:41:36] Matt Fairbanks: My daughter is, she's now married. She's got a kid, one of my two grandsons, and, she's just absolutely, you know, wonderful. And as you can imagine, you know, w- you have something like that happen and you're, you, you still deal with things, which she does. [00:41:48] Matt Fairbanks: But look, bad things happen, not by anyone's fault. You know, sometimes we make bad decisions that cause bad things to happen. Sometimes, you know, other people's bad decisions cause things to happen, and sometimes it's just, like, nature and life. [00:42:01] Matt Fairbanks: But, but no matter what is the source of it, that you can be grateful, right, and, and be grateful for those... The guy that was sitting next to me on the plane and the people that were able to, you know, help my daughter and, and grateful, you know, for my daughter and grateful for my family and grateful for the love that, um, her siblings had for her as she struggled through those things, and in the end it just, creates a new perspective which is healthier [00:42:22] Adam Fishman: Yeah, it sounds like this, maybe really changed you as a father and how you think about your kids and the people that you love your community and stuff like that. I mean, you seem like you're already on that trajectory anyways, but was that kind of a pivot, pivotal point for you? [00:42:39] Matt Fairbanks: It can't not be. I mean, a- any- anything that is like, you know, that, significant, it, it changes you. I [00:42:45] Matt Fairbanks: And, and yeah, and then, and the community, rallied as well, and my daughter's teachers could not have been more supportive, and, he would send people to the home," you [00:42:54] Matt Fairbanks: know, while she recovered to help her with her schooling and all the, you know, various therapists and And I, you know, could not be more grateful for my, daughter for not being offended [00:43:03] Matt Fairbanks: and to, like, keeping and, and doing hard, hard things and creating, you know, hard work. and she's just been a beautiful example of that, um, in all of our, you know, family roles or whatever, in creating this, this amazing life, for herself. [00:43:17] Matt Fairbanks: And it's just been a great blessing to her three siblings and, and to, to my wife and I, and, and to her husband, and to all of our, you know, extended family as the family keeps growing [00:43:26] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, thank you for telling that story. I appreciate it. I'm sure it was not easy. Um, let's get the mood back up again. Uh, I wanna talk a bit about you and your wife, uh, whose name is Trish, which also is the name of my mother, so great name. The two of you met on Halloween in 1993. You got engaged in January, and then married in June. [00:43:52] Adam Fishman: She was 19. What did the two of you see in each other like that fast? Were you just infatuated with each other? [00:43:59] Matt Fairbanks: I don't know. We were at a Halloween function and I just kind of saw her across the room and her eyes kind of caught me and, "Wow, she just lights up the room in a way that was really special." And I was, uh, was able to kind of get to know her, after the fact there. [00:44:16] Matt Fairbanks: She was 18 when that occurred, [00:44:18] Matt Fairbanks: and turned 19 until the following March, because I was not gonna marry an 18-year-old after all. so I had to wait till she was 19, um, in March, so then we got married in June. but I mean, look, we were sufficiently aligned on the things that really matter. faith and how we wanted to... Ultimately, we talked about, uh, having a family and what-- how we wanted that to be. We both loved the outdoors. Whenever I'd go over to her, her condo or, you know, where she lived, we were at college at the time, and, you know, I'd, I'd see her running shoes, you know, out on the front porch. [00:44:49] Matt Fairbanks: She used to get up at like oh-dark-30 and, you know, just go on a run, I don't know, I just thought that was really cool and, that was something that she did as, you know, as we were, you know, married. She'd like, ran marathons and qualify for the Boston Marathon and, you know, ran that. And she just... Anyway, I just... when, you know, you know. At least for us, I'll say for us, and, it'll be 32 years, this week, in fact. [00:45:12] Matt Fairbanks: It's been an amazing ride [00:45:13] Adam Fishman: Wow. Well, happy anniversary. Tell me about, the two of you have a pink tasks and blue tasks system, and I think she may have invented this. By the way, I like your wife more and more the more I learn about her. So, tell me about the pink tasks and blue tasks system. [00:45:28] Matt Fairbanks: Okay. So Okay. So this was relatively recent. I [00:45:31] Matt Fairbanks: mean, recent as within the last, I don't know, five to eight years or so. [00:45:36] Matt Fairbanks: Soour kids, they, uh, would go to college, and they'd bring friends. It's cool to have parents that live in Jackson Hole 'cause you can, "Hey, let's go to Jackson Hole," and, you know, for the weekend or whatever. [00:45:46] Matt Fairbanks: So anyway,we would constantly get college kids, you know, friends of, of our kids coming through the house. [00:45:51] Matt Fairbanks: That's one of the things that they started doing just as kind of joking around as college kids. You know, something needs to happen, it's like, "Oh, that's a blue task." [00:45:59] Matt Fairbanks: You know, "That boy needs to do that. that's a, that's a pink task. A girl needs to do that." Probably very inappropriate and, [00:46:04] Matt Fairbanks: you know, but anyway, so when they all left, you know, my wife and I caught ourselves kind of like, "That's a blue task." Uh, you know, " No, I think that's a pink task." You know? [00:46:15] Matt Fairbanks: Anyway, so look, yeah, there, there are certain things that are, definitely more, blue tasks, They just are.and there are definitely things that are, pink tasks and there's certain tasks that are whatever the mashup is of blue and pink. [00:46:27] Adam Fishman: Purple. They're purple tasks. [00:46:29] Matt Fairbanks: Yeah, I like to think the dishes are more of a blue task 'cause I actually enjoy doing the dishes. [00:46:33] Matt Fairbanks: if I'm being totally honest, you know, my wife probably does the dishes more than I do, but I, I like to think that I do them a lot, [00:46:40] Adam Fishman: Well, we'll, we'll come back to the dishes in a lightning round. I've got a, I've got a question for you about that. I get the sense that your wife sort of is, uh, I don't want to say the hardliner, but she sounds like she's more of the tough cookie in the, in the, in the household. [00:46:53] Adam Fishman: 'Cause you mentioned you're a lot easier with, like, money and buying stuff for, like, kids and things like that, and she's got the really, the high standards, and you described it as, like, accountability. How, how do the two of you stay aligned when you're wired differently like that as parents? [00:47:08] Matt Fairbanks: Uh, that's definitely true. I mean, I- we are aligned on the stuff that really matters, and then there's a whole series of things that you can like, you know, deal with where you're not particularly aligned, and you're [00:47:16] Matt Fairbanks: absolutely right. And we're still working through it. I mean, to be quite honest, we were just out walking the dogs, you know, But, you know, we were just talking about this, and again, talking about the fact that I kind of stress about things more and worry about things more, and she doesn't. And, O-one of the things that, we also love to do is, um, our kids were super involved in activities and sports, and when you live in a s- a, a rural state like this, you might, you might drive eight hours to go see a basketball game or a tennis or a [00:47:43] Matt Fairbanks: dance recitalAnd we get a lot of windshield time together, or did, um, you know, when our kids were in, in school and so forth. So we would just talk a lot, and I, I think that that is really important. When you're not talking and spending time and working through things, um, it's really hard. And if I'm gone a lot, I'm away for business trip for a long, long time, and, we'll get back in the car to go to some, you know, baseball game that my son's playing in or whatever, I'll just like fall in love with my wife all over again, just sitting in the car just talking. [00:48:16] Matt Fairbanks: It's like, [00:48:16] Matt Fairbanks: "I just really love talking to you and kind of working through things and talking things through." So, This is probably, this is very inappropriate, but, but somebody, in a, in kind of a religious context, told me, the most, uh... the way to show intimacy, to your spouse, and it's, it's a four-letter word, [00:48:33] Matt Fairbanks: and it ends in K. And so everybody's like, "Oh, a four-letter word that ends in K that expresses intimacy." And the word is talk. And I think that if you can talk and just connect with, you know, the people that you love, it is a very intimate thing, and it gets you aligned, and it makes life better [00:48:52] Adam Fishman: Well, love that. Your wife sounds like a wonderful person, so I can't wait to meet her on my next trip to Jackson Hole. Just a couple more topics before we get to round. I want to ask you about this idea of the pull to please someone else. You talked about that with me. [00:49:11] Adam Fishman: You called the, you know, the to please and to work has been like a lifelong struggle for you and a struggle for your own mental health. And I'm curious, you know, you also said that you're better at that now in your 50s than you were in your 40s and your 30s and your 20s. And so I'm, I'm kinda curious, like, how you've worked through that and how that sort of works and interplays with the idea of having a large family. [00:49:35] Matt Fairbanks: I think the way I would, I would compensate for that, you know, in my 20s and 30s and 40s is, is, is just, is through more and more time at work and, and the people who maybe got the short end of that stick were people that, were my family and my personal life. and then, the older I get, and I just would get better and better at that with every passing decade, you know. [00:50:01] Matt Fairbanks: It's really making decisions in advance and knowing where your priorities are. I think it's about prioritization. So think about what those things are at work that you really need to get done and focus on that. Be absolutely diligent, focused there. I know, by the way, there are certain things that you, your manager, your manager's manager, whoever, really want you to do. and sometimes they're right because they have more experience and they're in a position of authority and, they've coached you to, to prioritize something. [00:50:31] Matt Fairbanks: Where I find myself right now, is there are certain things that are important to people that I just need to do [00:50:37] Matt Fairbanks: and to really be great are things that they're [00:50:40] Matt Fairbanks: But I just need to nail it. So, so I, I think being able to, quickly be on it and, and satisfy those priorities for the people that matter, right? And just be efficient with it, and then focus on those,big rocks that you have to put into the jar, you know, [00:50:56] Matt Fairbanks: first, um, at work. and then also don't just leave extra time for the family. Like I mentioned earlier, I feel it's important to go and be a little league coach, or a baseball coach to my kids. I am going to prioritize that, and it's going to force me to spend my time in that way. So anyway, I would say, prioritization and making sure that you're bringing your A game and focusing on your priorities, and not just letting inefficiency or letting hours compensate for your lack of planning or lack of prioritization. [00:51:35] Adam Fishman: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's great. 'Cause the, the other thing you mentioned is like there's a, there's a limit to how long you can bring your A game. And eventually those extra hours, you're in, you're operating in your B game at that point, and it's not even the best use of time anymore. So I love that, uh, way of thinking. [00:51:53] Adam Fishman: I wanna ask you about technology and kids. I realize that your kids are, are, older now, but you sort of went through this pretty recently with some of them. And, you spent a whole career in technology, right? You're the CMO of a tech company now. You have a philosophy around kids' technology that is technology is for them and it's not them for technology. [00:52:14] Adam Fishman: the way that I interpret that is like you wanna act instead of being acted upon by technology. How do you do that or how did you teach your kids that line of thinking? [00:52:25] Matt Fairbanks: Technology is, it's coming at you fast. the approach we took, we just, we just embraced it, and we tried to teach, principles and how to use it, but really focus on what are you trying to do with the technology. I'm grateful for it. I mean, we-- uh, I love the, our family group text, you know, that, I can get videos of my, grandkids and, and videos of my, kids and, and, so forth. And we would use our, you know, our phones to go and when we're traveling, create like family movies [00:52:53] Matt Fairbanks: with the videos and the pictures that we're taking and, and a lot of those things are sitting out there on, out on the webisphere, [00:52:59] Matt Fairbanks: um, that people can see. [00:53:00] Matt Fairbanks: And it, and it-- but it was fun to like to create those things. AI, that's a thing [00:53:06] Matt Fairbanks: that is coming and it, it's here. My wife happens to own a fitness studio here in Jackson Hole, and one of the things she's doing is like, "Oh, I gotta put together my, you know, my, my cycle playlist." [00:53:18] Matt Fairbanks: And, um, and we're sitting in the car with a couple of our kids going somewhere, I don't know where, and, one of my kids goes, "Mom, just, just have AI create your pl- playlist." and she's like, "What do you mean I create my playlist?" And he like, couple prompts later and like boom, [00:53:32] Matt Fairbanks: this playlist. And,we're in the car and he's like going through it, says, "Oh, that's good. [00:53:35] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, yeah, that's perfect. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Boom." He just saved her a lot of time. [00:53:41] Matt Fairbanks: And so then she'll, she'd be like, "Oh, hey, can you, can you give me another of those AI pl-" Anyway, so just, that's an example. It, it's, it's we need the playlist or we need to do the thing. Let's use technology to advance our family mission and to bless the lives of people. Let's embrace it, and use it for good. [00:54:02] Matt Fairbanks: That's just kinda how we roll. Look, we're not perfect, sometimes we'll do the death scroll or feel envy or seek attention or whatever, look at the various pitfalls. Um, but by and large, if you are focused and see technology as the means, not the end, and focus on what is the end we're aiming for, technology can help get you there faster in a good way [00:54:21] Adam Fishman: Cool. Um, okay, I wanna do, uh, one final segment before we wrap up, and I'm calling this one Startup Grandad. I've had one other grandparent that I've had the privilege of interviewing on, on the show. not that long ago actually. Let's talk about you as a grandparent. [00:54:37] Adam Fishman: So you were at your cabin recently. You overheard youryour adult son, who has your grandson, putting grandson down to sleep. and he was saying something, doing something with him, and it... You said it brought tears to your eyes. So what, what was it that you, that you heard that was so emotional for you? [00:54:54] Matt Fairbanks: Yeah, we're just, we're sitting in this cabin that my grandpa and my dad... My dad helped my grandpa build it when he was like 12, 13, and 14 years old, and they finished it in like 1951 or whatever. It's rustic, it's small. Nothing happens in the cabin that everybody else in the cabin, you know, everybody's witnessing everything. [00:55:13] Matt Fairbanks: There's like a couple steps up and a little, uh, bed area. There's three little bed areas and some curtains you pull. But anyway, on the other side of the curtain, was my, my oldest son putting my oldest grandson down,I heard him singing, one of the songs, you know, that with his own little flair to it, you know, that I used to sing to my kids. I would love to just go and, when I was in town or whatever, be able to put them down and sing a song. [00:55:36] Matt Fairbanks: And whether it was like a, you know, a hymn that I'd kind of put my own little, flair to [00:55:42] Matt Fairbanks: or, um, or like a Broadway tune or, something from a, you know, uh, from Dis- some Disney movie like Little Mermaid, you know? [00:55:50] Matt Fairbanks: Um, anyway, and just when I listened to, to, to, my oldest son kind of putting his son down in this nostalgic cabin. Anyway, it was just, it was a, it was a moment [00:56:00] Matt Fairbanks: that, uh, just made me feel a little bit more grateful for all things [00:56:05] Adam Fishman: Yeah. Well, back to, back to rule number five, be grateful in all the things. What is it like to watch your own kids be parents now? Two of your kids have their own kids and, you know, you get to see that. What's that been like? [00:56:20] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, it's amazing. Like I said, they're, they're, they're better parents. Uh, well, I wouldn't speak for my wife. She's a pretty good parent. Um, but, but r- other than me as a, as a dad, I guess. Um, but yeah, it's, it's super gratifying to just see how capable they are, and what great parents they are. [00:56:36] Matt Fairbanks: I will be honest, it was a little bit, um, took some adjustment about just with the whole idea that [00:56:42] Matt Fairbanks: that I am going to be a grandparent, [00:56:45] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:56:45] Matt Fairbanks: kind of coming to a grandparent. Just kind of coming to grips with that. You know, it's like, "Wait a second, I'm gonna be a grandparent?" Some of my friends are like, "Hey man, you're sleeping with a grandma now," you know? I'm like, I was like, "I guess like, " [00:56:55] Adam Fishman: It's amazing. It, it really is. Um, you know, as grandparents and empty nesters, and you can go and have these amazing experiences and, and see the legacy that you're trying to leave, it's really special. [00:57:06] Matt Fairbanks: It's way better. I didn't know it at the time, but it's, it's way better than the things I was, you know, dealing with in my 20s, my 30s, my [00:57:12] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:57:13] Matt Fairbanks: my 50s. it's amazing [00:57:14] Adam Fishman: Okay. All right, well, let's wrap up, uh, before lightning round. I wanted to ask you, uh, one sort of thing about money. And you said that, and I can appreciate this, one of your biggest regrets is around, around money. Things like, you know, you didn't open a Roth IRA until it was too late, and then you had too much money and it didn't work. [00:57:37] Adam Fishman: And so you said you have this presentation or talk now that you give to teenagers called Personal Finance 101: What I 101: What I Wish I Had Known Earlier. So, like, what's your, like, number one door-busting tip on the Personal Finance 101 for, for teenagers? [00:57:54] Matt Fairbanks: I mean, look, that's it, is the, is the Roth IRA. I, I, think the Roth IRA is like the greatest deal in, uh, economically in the history of [00:58:01] Matt Fairbanks: mankind in terms of finance. [00:58:02] Matt Fairbanks: as soon as my kids got a, got any sort of a job where they got any sort of, you know, W2 earned income, we're putting it in a Roth IRA, you know? [00:58:10] Matt Fairbanks: And, I would match, you know, whatever we could, you know, and give them enough money so that they could, you know, contribute to the Roth IRA. And which is great too, by the way, because they're, they're starting to see, oh, you know, uh, I'm gonna buy a little, you know, some Apple stock or some Google stock [00:58:23] Matt Fairbanks: or, or buy a Caterpillar or, you know, put it in the S&P 500 index or some whatever. [00:58:28] Matt Fairbanks: So g- they get a little bit more conversant in that kind of stuff too. Youth in the neighborhood or in the community church group, nieces, nephews, whatever, I am like Mr. On The Warpath about the Roth IRA. And then, yeah, there's a few other things that, that are kind of related to that, that I didn't really figure out until, you know, much later that I kind of rolled up into a, a prizeo, [00:58:49] Matt Fairbanks: that, maybe referenced. [00:58:50] Matt Fairbanks: So yeah, that's one of the things I love to do. [00:58:52] Matt Fairbanks: There's no science. It's probably not right. And, you know, Dave Ramsey might be horrified at, at some of the things I'm telling people, but it's just stuff that I've learned from my own experience, [00:59:01] Matt Fairbanks: that I wish I had known a little earlier. And [00:59:03] Adam Fishman: Yeah [00:59:04] Matt Fairbanks: that gift of, a little bit more wisdom on the financial front to people that are just kind of getting started out. [00:59:08] Adam Fishman: Okay. Well, we will link to some overviews of the Roth IRA in the show notes for this, for all the financial curious amongst us. uh, last thing for you. One of the things you told me is that as you're getting, you know, older and sort of going on with your life, like your plan is to spin fewer plates and spin them better. [00:59:24] Adam Fishman: You're at this stage of your career, you've got young grandkids. Like, How are you making the determination on which plates do I stop spinning, which ones do I keep? Like, uh, what do you think about that? [00:59:35] Matt Fairbanks: First of all, work is very busy. I'm probably working as hard now or d-delivering more output, [00:59:42] Matt Fairbanks: than I ever have. and the thing that helps immensely is b-bringing in great people that you can trust, that earn your trust, [00:59:51] Matt Fairbanks: and trusting them to spin those plates. [00:59:54] Matt Fairbanks: And then there are certain plates professionally that, that only I can spin, but, but there, they're fewer than you think because there are people around you that you can trust, [01:00:05] Matt Fairbanks: you know? but then there's other plates as well, you know, that, that only I can spin, whether they're, you know, things with, my own health, for example. [01:00:12] Matt Fairbanks: You get older and you you, you know, you, you think about health a little bit more and what you need to do to, to stay fit and to, [01:00:18] Matt Fairbanks: think about, you know, longevity and, and health or mental health or spirituality or things that you wanna do kind of on the, on the volunteer front to, maybe do good in the world outside of sort of the fruits of, capitalism and all the things that... All the good that does in the world or what have you. Um, and then family. I mean, it changes you when you have grandkids and you wanna, you wanna be able to travel to visit them and, and spend time with them and, and with your kids and your in-laws, your son and daughters-in-law and so forth. [01:00:44] Matt Fairbanks: So I am super grateful about, how I, you know, have perspective and can make decisions on what plates I need to spin and, making decisions with every moment that I, that I have here on this, precious thing called life on, on, on how I'm going to spend my time and, and being judicious about where I spend that [01:01:03] Adam Fishman: Awesome. That is a great way to wrap up. Uh, how can people follow along or be helpful to you? Where should I send them? [01:01:12] Matt Fairbanks: Look, I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, like all the normal places. And yeah, I would love to hear from people or connect. And look, the best is if you're ever out in Jackson Hole, you know, like,ring me up and let's go do some turns, you know, on the ski hill, or let's go paddle a river together or [01:01:27] Matt Fairbanks: whatever, go hike to the top of Mount Glory and burn some turns or, [01:01:30] Matt Fairbanks: Teton Crest Trail. [01:01:31] Adam Fishman: I know I'm gonna take you up on that next time I'm in, I'm in Jackson, so, uh, which probably won't be too far into the future, so. All right. Let's do lightning round, uh, if you have a few moments for it. What is the most indispensable parenting product you've ever purchased? [01:01:46] Matt Fairbanks: I would say anything that gets you outside or gets you connected with your kids. So the things that come to mind are, are things like, you know, baseball gloves or fishing poles or skis and ski bootsyou know, a new pair of hiking boots, whatever, a backpack, Yeah, a tent. those things I thinkare good to kind of [01:02:02] Matt Fairbanks: bring you together [01:02:03] Matt Fairbanks: and give you excuse to go use them [01:02:04] Matt Fairbanks: give you an excuse to go use them [01:02:04] Adam Fishman: Maybe this is related to adding value, but what's the most useless parenting product you ever purchased? [01:02:09] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, definitely, definitely video games. [01:02:11] Adam Fishman: I knew it. I knew it. Okay, I said we would come back to this one. True or there's only one correct way to load a dishwasher [01:02:20] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, that's definitely true. [01:02:22] Matt Fairbanks: That's definitely true. Yeah. I take great [01:02:24] Matt Fairbanks: pride in my going to load a dishwasher. [01:02:25] Matt Fairbanks: Yeah. Well, [01:02:26] Adam Fishman: I could tell, I can tell. [01:02:28] Matt Fairbanks: Here's a tip. [01:02:29] Matt Fairbanks: My kids have pretty good hands. I mean, they're pretty good with their hands and stuff, So one of the things that we like to do, which horrifies people, but it brings a little bit of fun to it, is when we unload the dishwasher at the Fairbairn's family, the dishwasher gets opened, and we pick up glasses and plates and whatnot, and we throw them to somebody who's stationed at where they go. [01:02:47] Matt Fairbanks: And so we're like throwing plates and, like, [01:02:49] Matt Fairbanks: hucking glass. We love when people are over, have friends, or maybe when you come to visit, you'll witness this. It's like, "Hey, let's unload the dishwasher." And, you know, my kids will spring up and go take their posts, and it's like, you know, throwing. and we've had very, very few casualties, [01:03:05] Matt Fairbanks: brings a little bit of fun to that [01:03:06] Adam Fishman: This is like a Mary Poppins moment, like make, make work play here. So, uh, I love type two fun. Um, okay. What is your signature dad superpower? [01:03:17] Matt Fairbanks: Um, karaoke [01:03:21] Adam Fishman: I love that that is your superpower [01:03:23] Matt Fairbanks: A bit like Gary Lee Lewis, Great Balls of Fire. [01:03:26] Adam Fishman: Yep. Yep. Okay. Uh, if your kids had to describe you in one word, what would it be? [01:03:32] Matt Fairbanks: I don't know. I, I'm a, I'm a little bit crazy. I would like to think that they would say he's authentic, [01:03:37] Matt Fairbanks: but I think that they might say that I'm a little bit tedious. [01:03:40] Matt Fairbanks: Um, [01:03:41] Matt Fairbanks: they-- I just tedious about certain things, I would [01:03:44] Adam Fishman: Okay, that's fine. What is the funniest thing that one of your kids has ever said in public? [01:03:50] Matt Fairbanks: Oh yeah, this is good. Um, so my daughter Emily, what- they, they at elementary school, "What does your dad do for a living? What does your mom do for a living?" You know what I mean? So they did, "My dad..." The little picture they drew. "My dad sells Tupperware for a living." [01:04:03] Matt Fairbanks: And she kind of got that wrong. I'm a marketing guy. I market it. And it's not Tupperware, it's software. But somehow in the mind of a year old, my dad sells Tupperware. And we had other parents calling my wife and going, "Oh, I'm so sorry." Not that there's anything wrong with selling Tupperware, I'm just saying, that's kind of how some of the other parents reacted [01:04:22] Adam Fishman: Oh God. I would think, I thought maybe you would get calls from parents who were like, "Hey, uh, Matt, I really got to talk to you about, I need some new Tupperware. I really got to talk to you about that for the kitchen." That's awesome though. Um, how many dad jokes do you tell on average in a given day? [01:04:36] Matt Fairbanks: Uh, yeah, my goal, my goal is zero. I [01:04:38] Adam Fishman: Okay. [01:04:39] Matt Fairbanks: one or two slips out, but yeah, I, I, try to avoid the dad [01:04:41] Adam Fishman: That's good. I don't have that. I don't share that same goal, unfortunately. Um, what is the strangest food that one of your kids has ever made you try? [01:04:49] Matt Fairbanks: One time we took the kids to South America, and there's this thing called, called cui, [01:04:53] Matt Fairbanks: which I believe is a guinea pig. [01:04:56] Matt Fairbanks: And as- and my kids are a little more adventurous. They're ordering it [01:04:59] Matt Fairbanks: on the menu. [01:05:00] Adam Fishman: Yeah [01:05:00] Matt Fairbanks: And yeah, so, and I, they made me eat some [01:05:04] Adam Fishman: I had a friend who tried that. They literally serve it on a stick with like, in some places you could see it looks like real gui- ugh. Could-- I don't know if I could do it. I used to own guinea pigs. I'm not sure if I could do that. I didn't love guinea pigs, but I don't know if I could eat them. What is the most embarrassing thing you've ever done in front of your kids in public? [01:05:23] Matt Fairbanks: Definitely dance. Sometimes we'll be at some wedding reception and I'm, I'm a terrible dancer. [01:05:29] Matt Fairbanks: Um, [01:05:30] Matt Fairbanks: and I'll just start... [01:05:32] Matt Fairbanks: I [01:05:32] Matt Fairbanks: kind of dance like no one's watching, like they say, [01:05:34] Matt Fairbanks: except my kids [01:05:35] Matt Fairbanks: are watching and then I hear about it later. [01:05:37] Adam Fishman: Yep, yeah. Uh, what's the most absurd thing that one of your kids has ever asked you to buy for them? [01:05:42] Matt Fairbanks: My oldest son was fixated on getting a... And this was many years after 1987, but he wanted to get an old 1987 Jeep XJ [01:05:53] Matt Fairbanks: like, "That is the last thing we need right now is [01:05:56] Matt Fairbanks: our-" cool." Um, I'm like, "That is the last thing we need right now is another car." [01:05:58] Adam Fishman: not that car. Um, what is your favorite kids movie? [01:06:01] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, 100% Mary Poppins. [01:06:04] Matt Fairbanks: Mary Poppins favorite movie, like movie period, kids or otherwise. [01:06:08] Matt Fairbanks: And just to redeem myself because I get ridiculed up one side and down the other whenever I say that, second favorite movie is Argo [01:06:16] Matt Fairbanks: to bring a little bit of, you know, non-Mary Poppins [01:06:20] Adam Fishman: Perspective, [01:06:21] Matt Fairbanks: probably my yeah, a little bit of respect, and probably my third favorite movie is Moneyball. [01:06:25] Matt Fairbanks: That is a great movie [01:06:26] Adam Fishman: also a great film. Um, I never miss a chance to watch that on an airplane for some reason. If I'm on an airplane and that's on and I don't have to work, like I'm watching it. It doesn't matter how many times I've seen it. Um, okay. When, uh, when y- when your kids were old enough, like what nostalgic movie that you like couldn't wait to force them to watch with you? [01:06:47] Matt Fairbanks: probably The Big Short. [01:06:48] Matt Fairbanks: there's so much to be learned there. And so yes, as soon as my kids got to a, an age, um, where they could, uh, handle that, [01:06:55] Adam Fishman: Yeah [01:06:56] Matt Fairbanks: yes, that, that is, that is, uh, that is a must [01:06:59] Adam Fishman: Awesome. What is the worst experience you've ever had assembling a kid's toy or a piece of furniture? [01:07:05] Matt Fairbanks: Oh my gosh. Definitely one of those big, like, put it in your driveway and fill it up with sand or water, big basketball hoops. [01:07:11] Adam Fishman: Uh-huh [01:07:12] Matt Fairbanks: And, like, delivered to our house in a crate, and anyway, that did not go well. And before I kind of got it all finished and weighted down, we had kind of a little windy microburst, and down [01:07:22] Adam Fishman: Oh no [01:07:24] Matt Fairbanks: came. [01:07:24] Matt Fairbanks: R- and got... [01:07:24] Matt Fairbanks: Anyway, it's, yeah [01:07:27] Adam Fishman: no. Uh, how often do you tell your kids back in my day stories? [01:07:30] Matt Fairbanks: Actually a lot. and it's really funny when they, when they will just make reference in our daily life of some person in my childhood that they've never even met, [01:07:42] Matt Fairbanks: um, but that I'll talk about, you know, the kids from the old neighborhood. So yeah, we, we, we, reminisce a lot and I don't know, I, I think my kids appreciate it, at least I get a kick out of it when they mention these people's names [01:07:52] Adam Fishman: Awesome. All right, two left. What is your favorite dad hack for road trips or flights? [01:07:58] Matt Fairbanks: This drives my wife crazy, but sometimes, especially when the kids were younger, we'd go into a restaurant on a road trip and I just wouldn't order because there's gonna be plenty of food here with all that's ordered, and I will just eat the leftovers and that always worked out just fine. So yeah, [01:08:14] Adam Fishman: I love that. [01:08:16] Matt Fairbanks: And it, yeah, it wasn't necessarily saving money, but I just, I hate to have like food just [01:08:20] Adam Fishman: waste. [01:08:20] Adam Fishman: kids never eat what, fully what's in front of them, so yeah. Um, all right, last question, a startup favorite. What is your take on minivans? [01:08:30] Matt Fairbanks: Oh, I'm a big fan. We don't have a minivan right now, but, all growing up we always had a minivan. In fact, we called it... We didn't call it a minivan, we called it our super van. Um, [01:08:40] Matt Fairbanks: and especially if it's, like, got four-wheel drive, you know, all-wheel drive, and it's got some, like, beefy roof racks on there, and it's got a, you know, a, a tow hitch that you can put a bike rack on and, [01:08:52] Matt Fairbanks: you know, you just... [01:08:53] Matt Fairbanks: And, and the thing that I really like about, about, you know, minivans or super vans is, as a dad, and you pull into a parking lot, you don't have to worry about the kids, like, springing out of the, the, the Expedition or the Suburban and dinging the Mercedes or the BMW. It's like the c- the door is just, [01:09:10] Matt Fairbanks: you know, like [01:09:11] Matt Fairbanks: in and out and it's, like, no stress. [01:09:13] Adam Fishman: Yeah. That is the underrated feature of the minivan that I think most people miss, is the, the lack of dinging other people's doors, which is, which is perfect. All right. Well, Matt, that about does it for our, uh, conversation today. Thank you so much for joining me on Startup Dad. Uh, and I wish you and your family all the best for the rest of the year and, and hopefully some good, some good turns when the, when the winter comes again. [01:09:39] Matt Fairbanks: We got a place for you here, Adam. I'm waiting. I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold you to that. So we gotta go do some turns this winter and, and come out this summer if you wanna go and spend some time on the river [01:09:47] Adam Fishman: Sounds good. Thanks, Matt. [01:09:49] Adam Fishman: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Matt Fairbanks. You can subscribe and watch the show on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. [01:09:57] Adam Fishman: Visit www.startupdadpod.com to learn more and browse past episodes. Thanks for listening and see you next week.