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Guest Hypnotist Howard Cooper on Why Rapid Change Works · The Hypnotist

0:00
Welcome to The Hypnotist, the show that gives you inside
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access to cutting edge hypnosis with real clients facing genuine
0:07
issues. Brought to you by the
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hypnotherapist, demanded by celebrities, CEOs and even
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royalty. Adam Cox.
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These recordings took place live from Adam's clinic in London's
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world famous Harley Street. This podcast features powerful
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hypnosis, so do not listen while driving or operating machinery.
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This recording is not suitable for those with epilepsy or
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severe mental health issues, so get yourself comfortable and
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enjoy today's episode of The Hypnotist.
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Hi, it's Adam here. And on today's episode of The
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Hypnotist, I'm joined by a very special guest hypnotist, Howard
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Cooper. Welcome to the show.
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Thank you for having me, it's good to be.
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Here. Great to be here.
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And normally I do this over Zoom.
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It's great to have you actually in a physical studio where I
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normally work because you're local.
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And I didn't realize that there was another hypnotist literally
0:57
in the same town, which was amazing to see.
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Well, it was unbelievable and I've been here for 10 years or
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so, and then suddenly we discovered that we're not only
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in the same vicinity, we're literally like a Rd.
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It's absolutely crazy. Yeah, there there's a small
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world and then there's this, you know, kind of surprising kind of
1:16
thing and actually very similar backgrounds in the sense of why
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we got into hypnosis and, and some of the things that we focus
1:23
on, which is, which is great For those that aren't familiar with
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you, give us a bit of an intro to kind of who you are and, and
1:31
how you got into this fascinating world we call
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hypnosis. Right.
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So for me, hypnosis was really a lifeline but emerged out of me
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being really quite troubled as a teen.
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And I mean, my back story is at the age of 15, I was diagnosed
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as having a severe anxiety and panic attack disorder.
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I knew it was obviously very serious because the doctor told
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me it was a disorder. So of course it has to be
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serious. And I was then sent to a, a
1:56
psychotherapist and put on a medication and that whole stuff.
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And it really consisted of just week in, week out kind of
2:03
sessions of me going in and, and saying, you know, she'd say how,
2:08
how was this week? And I'd go, it was terrible.
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I feel shit. And she'd go, and how do you
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feel about feeling shit? And I'd go shit.
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And we'd just do that dance for 3 1/2 years.
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And I finally got her theory as to why I was like I was.
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The only problem was, is I wasn't really any better.
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So I discovered that I had to find what I would call some more
2:26
solution focused or slightly off the beaten path tools for
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helping myself. And that's sort of what led me
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to the world of NLP and hypnosis.
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And there was something about the idea which that we could
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control our thoughts and we could actually step into rather
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than being a victim of these patterns, we could do something
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to take ownership over the patterns that we're learning
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about and doing cognitively and mentally that could actually
2:54
lead to a results. Up until then, it was just you,
2:57
you're a victim to this. And we have to figure out why.
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And suddenly there's this tremendous idea of I can be free
3:03
of something because I can actually learn some very
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practical skills and mindsets that could shift my thinking.
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And that's really what put me on the path then, because I got
3:12
better so much quicker than really anything else had worked
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before. I trained up and became quite
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passionate that people shouldn't be suffering with things that
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can be so easily treated that I I felt compelled to to learn and
3:27
help others to do them. And I think it's a really
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important distinction because a lot of people when they hear
3:33
about therapy, it's a catch all term and they put everything in
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that same basket. But you've got certain things on
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one end of the spectrum which are very much non
3:42
interventional. The purpose is maybe to listen
3:44
and understand, but not really to create change.
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And then you've got things on the opposite side of the
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spectrum like hypnotherapy, like NLP, which is this rapid change
3:53
element that the whole point is to change.
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And for me, it always seemed like the distinction was for a
3:59
lot of counseling, they want to know what and why.
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But NLP and hypnosis kind of approaches is more how, how are
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you creating this experience? And if we understand that, maybe
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we can change it. And then you can create a
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different emotion, a different feeling, a different strategy.
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What was the key light bulb moment for you where you figured
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that maybe hypnosis, NLP, or something of that ilk was the
4:19
right thing for you? So I ended up on a Anthony
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Robbins Unleash the Power within weekend and, you know, they
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joked that it would change my life and it did.
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And it's funny, I can be quite outspoken about what I think of
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Anthony Robbins and the messages and the way he does stuff.
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Not always in the most positive light because I think there is
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an unhealthy aspect to it. But I cannot deny, and I will
4:46
always give them credit for this, that it did kind of open
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my eyes because four days in, I was like, holy moly, I can do
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something about this. And I would say that that that
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changed my thinking. I became obsessed with how it
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was twofold, not just, wow, I can do something here, but look
5:06
at the effect he's having. And all of these other people
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are empowered in a way that I felt that my own personal
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experience of psychotherapy and psychoanalysis had not been that
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way orientated. And yes, the idea of looking at
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how we do things is incredibly empowering.
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You know, just just to go back a second, I think that, you know,
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when when we look at why, the word why tends to have the
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effect of digging people's heels into the ground further.
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And you say, why do you believe that or why is that the case?
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People tend to go, well, it's because and they want to defend,
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whereas how opens up to possibilities.
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So I think the idea of spending 3 1/2 years going why is like,
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let's just dig our heels further in for 3 1/2 years to existing
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patterns rather than opening the doors to others.
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And for me, that's what Anthony Robbins did for me.
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It was that kind of just, I'm not saying I was done then, but
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it was the foot in the door of change that made me go, holy
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moly that there's a whole world out there of something new.
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Yeah, there is something very, I think, powerful with his
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approach because he understands the importance of emotional
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state. So getting people high fiving
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and jumping up and down and all this kind of stuff.
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It does change the state from posture and physicality and
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breathing and, and all of that kind of stuff.
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And his whole presupposition through tonality and, and you're
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seeing people change is that it's inevitable that you're
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going to change. You can't stay the same.
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And, and there's lots of kind of power in that.
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But it's interesting that he doesn't call what he does
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hypnosis. And I think that might be the,
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the laws and regulations of the, of the states.
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Why he kind of calls it, I think the latest was neuro associative
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conditioning and, and that kind of stuff, but something that
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means that he doesn't have to, you know, have certification
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and, and, and that kind of stuff.
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But I think he's, we've got a lot of people into this kind of
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world of either personal development or feeling that they
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can do something about that. But there is this toxic element
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of positive psychology where people feel that if they're not
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making change, then somehow it's on them.
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And it is a very sharp double edged sword that it's what can
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be empowering can also make people feel like they're guilty
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or ashamed for not making a change.
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Oh, 100%. And actually on my YouTube
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channel, I, I, I did it, it's my, it's, it's not the one with
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the most views by any stretch, but it was my favorite video.
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You know, when sometimes you feel like you've got a message
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and you really want to share it. And the video was on two print 2
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principles of personal development that changed my
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life. And the first one, which I've
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talked about was having that weekend with Anthony Robbins and
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discovering the beauty of the realisation.
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You can change your thinking, you can control your thinking.
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You can practice this stuff. This is unbelievable.
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Wow. And then about 10 years later
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having the other realisation, which is you can't control your
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thinking at all. We don't choose our thoughts.
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And for me having that duality play out and reflecting on that
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has been hugely life changing. And some people do, you know, I
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think one of my problems with that sort of mindset is there
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are some people who leave that having seen an incredibly
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powerful, persuasive speaker in an amazingly heightened
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emotional state, basically kind of implying that unless you're
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juiced up on life 100% of the day, all day, every day, that
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somehow you're not living to your full potential.
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But that's not very integrated. And I used to joke with people
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like what does being 100% juice up on life look like when you're
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doing a shit on the toilet? Like this is the greatest toilet
8:46
moment of my life. Like it's OK also to be on the
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toilet. It's OK to be bored.
8:50
It's OK to be doing the groceries.
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It's OK to have normal feelings as well.
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But how do we integrate all that?
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And I think a lot of people do put pressure on themselves to,
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well, if I've seen it possible from the stage, I now have to be
9:02
my 100% self all day every day. And that's not realistic and I
9:08
do see some people spiral by trying to maintain that overly
9:11
toxic positive attitude. Yeah, there is this kind of the
9:14
hustle and grind mentality that I think kind of blends in with
9:17
this kind of 100% kind of self improvement kind of philosophy
9:21
and, and and it can it can lead to kind of missing the bigger
9:26
picture. I think sometimes what I found
9:28
fascinating because my first experience, one of these unleash
9:31
the power within things, it, it felt very culty.
9:34
It did feel all the all the chanting and high fives and was
9:39
it cool Moss? You have to kind of chant before
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you do fire walk and all that kind of stuff.
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And I remember being sat next to this middle-aged woman and they
9:49
encouraged you to kind of partner up and kind of speak to
9:51
other people about the goals and that kind of stuff.
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And there were lots of fundamental things not great
9:56
about her life. Health wasn't great, her career
9:59
wasn't great, her relationships weren't great.
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And then I saw someone that I knew definitely couldn't afford
10:05
to sign up for a very expensive thing, you know, make her move
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and stride up and sign up for some very expensive course.
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And I and I was in a quite a good situation.
10:15
Then I thought, this doesn't make sense for me.
10:18
Like I can take a lot of strategies from what I've
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learned from here, I can work on that.
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But I saw the manipulative side of getting someone in a
10:26
heightened state and and, and the irony of chanting.
10:30
Now I am the voice and realizing that actually it was this
10:34
element of where you're getting someone in a heightened state,
10:37
you're giving them suggestions, you were covering action.
10:40
It was very influential, but it was designed to extract money
10:43
from the audience. And, and that element of, and I
10:46
was impressed because I, I started my career in sales.
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It's kind of like, that's great. You can sell a lot from a stage
10:52
from from that, but there's a lot of people that didn't
10:54
understand what was happening, got caught up in the in the
10:57
thing, and then suddenly they're 8 grand in debt because they've
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signed up to something which may be useful for them three years
11:06
from now when they've got other things in order, but they're
11:08
jumping the gun, you know? What's your thoughts on on that
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kind of manipulative element which sometimes hypnosis is
11:14
accused of having? Yeah, I, I agree.
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I think you're absolutely right to point that out.
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I think it doesn't sit right with me.
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And I think there's some ethical issues around it.
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You know, I would argue that everything we do is hypnosis in
11:27
some way or another. You know, it's influencing
11:30
people and you know, I mean, the, the, the problem I have
11:36
with it is that yes, it doesn't get rid of the people who it's
11:41
not the right fit for. It doesn't filter them out.
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It's, it would be unethical to sell to them, you know, and they
11:49
don't know it's happening. And there is a weird irony.
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I can't remember who pointed this out to me, but being in one
11:53
of these groups and you know, them chanting from the top,
11:57
repeat after me. I am a leader, not a follower.
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And then 5000 people all say the same thing afterwards, you know
12:04
the. Irony wasn't lost on me at all.
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No, I mean, I'm like, this is this is this is nuts.
12:08
This is this is just crazy. They're they're not leaders.
12:10
They're all following the person at the front.
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This is. And and that that gives it that
12:14
kind of, you know, charismatic cult leader kind of vibe, which
12:18
I think a lot of people correctly and fairly kind of
12:21
say, well, yeah, it has. And I, and I remember that
12:24
unleash the power within the, the, the, the collision of kind
12:27
of value system, because I'm an atheist and, and, and quite non
12:31
religious. But on the very same weekend as
12:34
unleashed the power within, there was a Christian kind of
12:37
summit and of the Venn diagram. It was almost an eclipse.
12:42
The energy levels, the, the kind of the posture, the facial
12:45
expressions, the mannerisms, the all this kind of thing.
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It was kind of like, OK, this is like a religious cult.
12:51
It's just with a different set of belief systems and, and all
12:54
these things designed to create cohesiveness.
12:57
And, and I think as humans, we, we're drawn to that.
13:00
We want to find someone to follow and, and believe in and
13:03
all that kind of stuff. Yeah, religious or non
13:05
religious. But when there is an agenda, and
13:08
maybe that agenda is to empower other people, but also to
13:11
extract as much financial gain as possible, It it has these
13:14
kind of questions. Well, I think people confuse
13:16
what is a, a weekend course of giving you actually some pretty
13:20
good advice and empowering suggestions and ideas with being
13:25
a cure all or a fix for everything that's going wrong in
13:28
your life. And I think it was Frank
13:31
Farrelly that talked about this the, the, the guy behind
13:33
provocative therapy and he said, you know, a lot of therapy.
13:37
And I, I really think that this weekend falls into that is this
13:41
idea of essentially telling people that it's like pumping
13:44
them up, inflating them. You're a wonderful human being,
13:47
you're fantastic, you can do it, it's going to be brilliant, you
13:51
can achieve. And they sort of just leave
13:54
going, Oh my God, this is amazing.
13:55
I feel amazing. And then over the course of the
13:56
year, they, yeah, deflate. But of course they felt so good.
14:01
They of course come to the conclusion that the solution is
14:04
they have to go again next year. And every year they go back and
14:08
it becomes the the conference goer who has to go every year to
14:11
have them you pumped up for the year.
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And I don't think that's what good change work is about.
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I think good change work is about helping people integrate
14:19
really sound advice, evidence based methods so that their
14:22
whole life changes. It's not just that externally
14:26
someone has to pump them up once a year.
14:29
You know, I think we we can be more robust than a tire.
14:36
I, I, I think that's a very good metaphor.
14:37
And I think I remember, I don't know if it was on a podcast or
14:40
some kind of video that I saw, but someone was talking to Rich
14:44
Bandler, who we were talking about before the one of the Co
14:47
founders of NLP about bragging that they're done like 25 walks.
14:53
And, and he kind of made the point that, you know, if the
14:57
metaphor is a powerful metaphor, you only need to do 11 once.
15:01
You know, if you do 20 fireworks, you kind of miss the
15:03
point entirely. Like the, the point is to to
15:06
face a perceived fear, not that it's actually dangerous, but you
15:10
do get these course junkies and, and, and that's not a bad thing
15:13
if people can afford it and they build these communities around
15:15
it. But it's when people get
15:17
addicted to the vehicle, going to courses, some people get
15:21
addicted to therapy and those kind of things.
15:23
And it's kind of like we were just replacing one crutch with
15:25
another crutch. The goal is to become, you know,
15:29
self-sufficient and empowered and, and go off on your own
15:32
thing, not needing those things. And I do think in the therapy
15:35
world, I use the metaphor of a bad driving instructor.
15:39
A bad driving instructor never wants someone to pass their
15:42
tests because they lose a client.
15:43
And I do think there is kind of a certain percentage of
15:47
therapists, well, that's the goal.
15:49
They want to kind of build this kind of friendship relationship
15:51
with their client, but not actually see their client do
15:54
well because then they lose a client.
15:56
Right. I mean, I, I remember talking to
15:57
someone who told me they've been in therapy for nine years.
16:00
This was just something conversationally, they were not
16:01
a client. And I said 999 years.
16:04
I mean, look, when I work with people, I do 2 sessions.
16:06
That's it, right? I don't want to have ongoing,
16:09
you know, maybe because I'm not a people person, but I don't
16:11
want to have ongoing week in, week out because life's too
16:15
short to be stuck in therapy. And she said, I'm, oh, yeah, I'm
16:18
nine years in, you know, And I said, well, how will you know
16:20
when you're done? And she said, oh, we haven't
16:23
talked about that. It's like, what, what are you
16:26
doing? It's just this sort of
16:28
codependent relationship where you just go in and you just
16:31
talk. And if you're ever challenged
16:34
about, you know, well, what are we specifically doing?
16:38
Well, I'm giving you. Space to just holding space and
16:42
that's the thing to put it back on a spectrum.
16:43
It's kind of like therapy can be about rapid change, but it could
16:46
also be just very expensive conversations.
16:48
And I think when it becomes very expensive conversations, is that
16:51
empowering because there is a, an opportunity cost there.
16:55
What could that money also be spending on to actually enrich
16:57
the quality of that person's life that doesn't need that
17:00
conversation? And, and sometimes it can be
17:02
empowering. Sometimes I think it can be very
17:04
disempowering. I I.
17:06
Don't want to throw out either other modalities.
17:08
I think there are times and there are places where there is
17:10
a merit for sitting and, and, and just offloading and paying
17:15
someone for the privilege of offloading in a safe space.
17:17
So you're not doing it to friends, family and, and that,
17:21
you know, if, if someone you know, loses a partner or, you
17:25
know, has some frustrating situation that emerges,
17:30
sometimes it's not the right fit to go to a hypnotist who's going
17:32
to orientate towards. I'm just going to fix you.
17:34
You know, your husband died yesterday.
17:36
Well don't worry, when you leave here you'll feel fantastic.
17:39
You know, it might be OK for them to sit for a few months and
17:43
just offload about the unfairness and how shit it is
17:45
and let them get it out. That's OK.
17:48
But I think when there's no end goal and it it just goes on and
17:52
on forever and there's no real purpose behind it, I think there
17:55
is a danger in it becoming an emotional crutch for people and
17:58
getting in the way of people being self-sufficient.
18:01
I, I think it's, it's, you know, I'm a big believer that the
18:04
strategy is working backwards, you know, tactical where you
18:06
kind of deploy in the moment. The strategy is working
18:08
backwards. And I think that question, how
18:10
will you know when you've got there is a great place to start
18:12
with any client. It's kind of, you know, quite
18:15
often on a consultation call, I'll, I'll ask that question.
18:18
If the work we do together is successful, how will you know?
18:20
What will it look like in your life right now?
18:22
You've got a road map Now you know if, if it's working, if
18:25
we're actually making progress. But a lot of therapists don't
18:29
even ask that question. It's, it's kind of, well, let's
18:31
just talk and we see where it goes and you're right, there's a
18:35
whole kind of buffet of options for people struggling in any
18:39
kind of way and, and hypnotherapy is one of them.
18:43
Your rapid change, we had a conversation a couple of weeks
18:45
ago where you were talking about ATV show that you're doing out
18:48
in the States based on this idea of rapid change.
18:52
Tell us about where that came from.
18:53
Where? It ended well.
18:54
I mean, I, I, I used to be called creating more, you know,
18:59
and that was kind of, and I, I like the acronym of Moore being
19:02
masters of real excellence. I was very NLP inspired.
19:05
Let's find masters and real excellence and model them and so
19:08
on. And you know, no one ever
19:09
luckily pointed out the fact that you could also go creating
19:12
more anxiety and use it that way.
19:14
But we won't talk about that. But I, I got spotted by ATV
19:19
production company in Philadelphia to make a pilot TV
19:22
show where, and we've seen this before, you know, you have 3
19:26
terrified phobic people. You film them freaking out with
19:30
whatever it is, then you film the intervention and then you
19:33
film the results. And I was flown over to America
19:36
to do this for a week. It was amazing, loved every
19:40
moment of it. But they, they, they fixed me up
19:42
with a water phobic, someone who had nearly drowned when they
19:44
were five and now couldn't get any water.
19:47
They fixed me up with a horse phobic and also a bridge phobic.
19:51
They couldn't drive over bridges and I went out there and we
19:56
filmed this. They said look, if you can help
20:00
the water phobic, just touch the water, that would be amazing
20:04
because they wouldn't go within 2 meters of the pool that they
20:06
had around the back. So we did this session.
20:09
Luckily this person was super responsive and sometimes we do
20:12
we just find people's brains, just get it.
20:14
It's amazing. And he was one of those and. 15
20:19
minutes after I thought, he's all right now and we end up
20:23
going around the back and like can't, can't been that quick.
20:27
And not only does he touch the, the water, he goes into the
20:30
pool, he goes under the water and he sort of they had the shot
20:33
where he comes out and he's he's smiling and he was like, he said
20:37
something like it's a rebirth. It was very, it was so dramatic
20:42
and overly cheesy, but it was, it was amazing.
20:44
And they're all clapping on the back.
20:45
This is, oh, this is amazing. This is Money in the back.
20:47
Who would turn this down? I got a good result with the
20:50
other two as well. Bit more involved as it often
20:53
is, you know, because sometimes the world of therapy is not
20:55
always straight smooth sailing. It goes around.
20:59
We have some jeopardy as well. Great.
21:03
We get back, I get back to England and about a month later
21:06
they sent me the footage of the final reel that's going to be
21:09
then pitched to make this show. And they've cut out the water
21:13
phobic entirely, entirely. And I was fuming.
21:17
I said, well, you know, what are you doing?
21:19
What's going on? Well, it was so quick and it
21:23
lacked and so easy that it it it sort of lacked interest and
21:28
jeopardy. And actually, we, we think that
21:30
the network will just look at it and think we've just staged it
21:34
because, you know, this guy comes in and goes, I'm
21:36
terrified. I've got a problem for 35 years.
21:38
You sat with him for 15 minutes and then he went, Now I'm cured
21:42
it it. And then they said this phrase.
21:44
They went. And the real thing is, Howard,
21:46
we all know rapid change can't really happen.
21:51
Change takes a long time. You know that's.
21:56
Coming up with ATV show based on rapid transformations if they
21:59
didn't believe in right? Well, I think they did they they
22:01
believed it, but not that quick. It's like.
22:03
I see. It's quick in nothing.
22:05
It's believable, but too quick and it you know, we, we lose
22:07
credibility. I see.
22:10
So it was just it was just irritating.
22:12
And I just remember thinking right.
22:13
And I went that day when I heard that and bought the domain rapid
22:17
change dot works, which was really my screw you to the
22:20
network and my screw you to the people that believe that change
22:24
takes a long time. And ever since then I have
22:28
branded as that I do slightly, if I'm honest, I slightly regret
22:35
that. Not because there's a big
22:36
following and that's great, but there are a few people who have
22:39
translated rapid change into the meaning of instant fix.
22:44
Right, quick fixes. And it's not a quick fix.
22:47
What I mean by rapid is, well, I'll tell you when I first
22:51
start, I mustn't admit this because, you know, I know other
22:54
therapists might be listening. But when I first started in the
22:58
world of change work, I decided to pretend that I had a fear of
23:01
flying. And I rang about 10 therapists
23:04
around the UK asking them, I have a fear of flying, can you
23:09
help me? Hypnotherapists, NLP
23:11
practitioners, people like that. And I lost count of the number
23:15
of people who said, Howard, what we do is we actually use the 10
23:19
session approach. And I always went, well, what
23:23
will happen after two if I'm OK And they all went, you won't be.
23:27
I thought, wow, what a what a suggestion, first of all, but
23:31
I'm still struggling to work out what you do for 10 sessions.
23:35
Until I bumped into one of these people that I remembered
23:37
speaking to at A, at a meet up group for therapists and
23:40
hypnosis years later and I managed to direct the
23:42
conversation back to, you know, how do you work with people?
23:45
They went, oh, we use the 10 session approach.
23:46
Oh, what, what do you do for 10 sessions?
23:49
Well, session one is an initial consultation.
23:51
It's just getting to know you. Session 2 is an introduction to
23:54
hypnosis. We just do some relaxation.
23:57
Step 3 is understanding more about flying and and so on.
24:01
So they didn't do the change work until about change step 6.
24:06
And they would call that psycho education and that kind of
24:08
stuff, but effectively it's stringing it out.
24:10
It's called stringing it out, yes.
24:12
And I think that's frustrating for the client.
24:16
I think that's an ethical, you know, and I think so when I say
24:19
rapid change, what I'm talking about is change as quick as it
24:24
can be done, always sitting present in the session thinking
24:27
this could be the moment, today could be the day that it
24:30
changes. We just have to find the right
24:32
pieces to put in place rather than going, well, I'm going to
24:35
make it take longer than it needs to.
24:38
You know, now some people that might be 2-3 months, some people
24:42
it might be one session. But you know, I always remember
24:47
years ago having a chat with a lovely guy called Trevor
24:49
Sylvester, who is the founder of Cognitive hypnotherapy, who
24:53
pointed at his wife, cuts these very neat slices of bread or
24:57
beautifully, they buy fresh but baked bread.
25:00
And it was beautifully sliced, even absolutely exquisite, like
25:05
from a machine. And when he tries to cut it, it
25:08
always ends up like thicker at the bottom or skew if or not
25:12
quite, you know, and he said, how do you do that to her?
25:16
And she turned to him and he said, well, she said, I cut to
25:19
the slice. I, I cut to the speed of the
25:21
bread. He was being very masculine
25:24
about the whole thing, grabbing it and going through as quick as
25:27
you possibly could, whereas she's feeling the resistance and
25:29
just going through it, the speed of the bread.
25:31
And I think everyone is like a, a, a slice.
25:35
And, you know, change work is a little bit like that.
25:37
We, we, we cut to the speed of the person in front of us rather
25:41
than artificially trying to slow it down or speed it up.
25:44
And for me, that's what rapid is.
25:45
It's about as quick as it can be done.
25:47
Yeah. I think a lot of therapists when
25:50
they market themselves, they want to project this element of
25:54
credibility confidence. It's not unusual that you see
25:57
people claiming 100% success rates and you know, single
26:03
session change work and, and all of that kind of stuff.
26:08
And you know, I've, I've done, I don't know, maybe over 1000 kind
26:13
of client sessions. And I'm thinking, well, you
26:15
know, if I said that I'd helped 100% of people in every single,
26:19
I'd be lying like that, that for me there is always those things
26:24
where it doesn't quite work in that situation or it doesn't
26:27
quite work with that particular person.
26:30
And I treat that as reconnaissance.
26:31
It's kind of like, well, what do I need to do better to kind of
26:34
improve or change my approach? Or how could I have done that
26:37
with hindsight? What's your thoughts?
26:40
22 part question, really. What's your thoughts on people
26:43
that claim 100% success rates? And the second part of the
26:47
question is, was there a memorable one that got away for
26:50
you that actually, you know, you thought, you know, I couldn't
26:53
quite help them at that time in your career perhaps?
26:56
Yeah, great question. It's it's really simple.
27:00
I think anyone that claims they have a 100% success rate is and
27:04
let's be diplomatic are deluded. And then if they claim it
27:10
publicly, I would say they're deluded assholes because the
27:14
idea that you can have anything that works 100% with everyone
27:18
all the time is ludicrous and lacks credibility.
27:22
And, and actually, one of the problems that we have is that if
27:26
you ask people, well, how do you come to that conclusion?
27:28
How do you track the metrics? They will not have a good answer
27:31
for that, right? And I've heard all sorts over
27:34
the years, I've heard people say, well, you know, I always
27:35
offer a free session. If it hasn't worked, no one's
27:37
ever come back. It's like, well, if you've ever
27:40
been to a restaurant and had a bad meal, you know, for me, you
27:45
know, unless there's a good metric, you know, and how long,
27:49
even if it's, well, we catch up six weeks later and they say I'm
27:52
improved. What about a year later?
27:55
At what point there's too many Shades of Grey.
27:57
And I've had a lot of people who have come and seen me and said,
28:00
you know, I remember one person went, I just really don't
28:03
believe anything's going to help.
28:05
I mean, I, I am hopeful that you can, but I'm really not sure how
28:09
come, how come you feel so sort of downbeat about the
28:11
possibilities of change? Well, I saw someone a few weeks
28:14
ago who has a 100% success rate and they couldn't help me.
28:18
And I'm like, well, they don't have a 100% success rate, do
28:22
they? You know, and I do have a client
28:27
that I worked with who having been told by someone they had a
28:31
100% success rate and it didn't work with them, did challenge
28:35
them say, you know, you claimed 100% success rate, but it didn't
28:40
work with me. And they said, well, that's
28:42
because you stopped coming. In other words, if you just keep
28:46
coming until you're fixed, you'll have a, you'll, you'll be
28:50
fixed. So yes, I, I mean in that sense
28:53
I, I too have a 100% success rate of all the people I've
28:56
successfully helped. Yeah, it's it's.
28:59
It's semantics and definition, isn't it?
29:01
If you define it in a certain way, you can make it so it's
29:03
100%. And and that would be, it gives
29:06
a sense of reassurance and confidence to someone wanting
29:09
someone because they want, they want to be fixed.
29:11
They don't want to keep having their problem and therefore it
29:13
kind of appeals to them. But yeah, there are kind of
29:16
ethical parts of that. And was there someone that
29:18
you've worked with that you know you you couldn't quite help but
29:22
loads? Of course, of course, I think, I
29:24
think all therapists have people that slipped through the Nets or
29:28
who weren't quite the right fit for.
29:30
I also think one of the big dangers, by the way, and I'll
29:32
give you a real, a good example in a moment, but just to go
29:36
back, I think the danger of implying or stating that we have
29:42
a 100% success rate on a meta suggestion implies that they
29:46
have no responsibility or work to put in themselves.
29:50
The idea that I'm I'm going to do it and there's no onus on you
29:54
is a really dangerous thing to sell people on.
29:57
Yeah, I didn't think of it from that angle, but you're right.
30:00
Because then it's kind of like, because it, it follows the
30:02
magician's archetype, it's kind of like, you know, I will fix
30:05
you and I do it 100% of the time.
30:06
Therefore, no matter what you do, right, you will be fixed.
30:09
Is is is a disempowering presupposition there.
30:13
Right and and if the job or think of good therapy is to help
30:15
people step into being self of self efficacy and stepping into
30:20
and taking ownership of their own life, the idea that we just
30:23
fix them and it's all on us, the onus it's, I think one of the
30:27
most disempowering things we could do.
30:28
So of course, when I say yes, there are people that I couldn't
30:31
help, I would argue it's more a question of the case that there
30:35
were people there, you, me and them were not a good fit
30:39
together and the result did not emerge out of the collaborative
30:43
spirit of working together. You know, it just was not the
30:46
right, you know, there are some people out there who are deeply
30:50
troubled as well. And I I think part of them likes
30:54
to go sounds awful, a bit like serial killers.
30:57
They go, you know, they have notches of like I've killed
31:00
another, right. But they sort of collect
31:02
therapists who can't help them. Particularly high profile
31:04
therapists. It's kind of like not even this
31:06
person could help me, right? Becomes a badge of on Earth.
31:08
Absolutely. I've taken down another one, you
31:11
know, so there are people that that slip through the net.
31:14
But yeah, there are people. And look, I, I have got better
31:17
as the years have got all gone on.
31:19
You know, I've been doing it for about 20-3 years now.
31:22
But I look back at some of the ways I worked with clients and
31:25
some of the things that I did that just didn't work or were I,
31:32
I, I remember doing making a really terrible rookie error
31:39
about 4-5 years into to this work.
31:43
And I'd like what I thought was a great session with someone and
31:46
it was actually about fear of flying.
31:49
And right at the end, well, I say right at the end, about 20
31:53
minutes left of the session and their eyes are closed and
31:56
they're in a deep hypnotic state.
31:58
So I think, and I decide I'm going to do some arm catalepsy.
32:03
And rather than stacking the odds in my favour of lifting
32:05
their arm up and feeling that waxy cataleptic state and then
32:09
allowing it to come towards their face, I'm just going from
32:12
a cold start. Their hands are on their their
32:14
lap. I'm going in a moment.
32:17
One of your hands may feel a little warmer and the other may
32:20
feel a little lighter, and I don't know which will be which.
32:24
But as you begin to notice the changing awareness of which hand
32:27
feels the lightest as you take a gentle breath, that's right,
32:31
you'll begin to feel a lift, drift and rise.
32:33
And maybe it will start at first with a little twitch.
32:36
And oh man, I'm just, nothing's happening.
32:39
Nothing. Nothing at all.
32:40
And I, I don't even at this point, give him any ways out or
32:43
at me be OK to stay there with a feeling of heaviness.
32:48
It's just, it's going to feel lighter and lighter and lighter
32:50
and lighter and lighter. And, and I'm, I'm looking and
32:53
it's 5 minutes in, you know, to, to, to trying to get some arm
32:56
catalepsy. And he's, and then the worst
32:59
thing is I look back and what did I, how would I set that up?
33:02
I said in a moment as your hand, when your hand raises up, it
33:06
will be a sign that all of the positive changes that we've made
33:09
today will have taken place. So now there is a bind.
33:12
The bind is if this thing doesn't rise up, I've screwed
33:15
this up, the whole thing's ruined.
33:18
I like that, yeah. Right.
33:19
And I'm sitting there going, why have I put all my eggs in this
33:21
one basket? But I'm backed into the corner
33:23
now, 10 minutes in, 10 minutes later, if you cut to me, I'm
33:27
still there going. And any moment now, lighter and
33:30
lighter and lighter. And soon when it's ready, it
33:34
will be drifting up, up, up, up, up.
33:36
That's right. And then I realise we're now
33:39
1520 minutes. I've been doing this.
33:41
I've got someone else arriving in a minute, right?
33:44
And I'm going and Eddie, Eddie. And there's probably a moment of
33:48
desperation in my voice, going any, any moment.
33:51
Please please let this. Until luckily, he put me out of
33:55
my misery and he suddenly opened his eyes and he looked at me and
33:59
he went good effort. And that was it.
34:02
Yeah. And I thought, you know, but
34:05
you, here's the thing. I'd rather be open about this
34:08
kind of stuff that it's happened rather than maintain for two
34:12
reasons. One, I think there were a lot of
34:13
people, hypnotherapists out there who they first learn and
34:16
they hear people like you and I who've been doing this a long
34:18
time with a lot of people. If you look up, I've got a good
34:21
reputation. I spent, you know, whether it's
34:23
pilot TV shows or being the anxiety expert on BBC Morning
34:26
Live or working as the guy with Virgin Atlantic.
34:29
I've done all of this stuff and yet I'm still OK to go.
34:32
Yeah, we all screwed up. We've all done stupid things.
34:34
We've all, and we learned from that.
34:36
And I think there is real merit in rather than pulling the wool
34:39
over our eyes going no, no, I must maintain the confirmation
34:44
behind the cognitive dissonance that I am the greatest and I've
34:46
never screwed. No, these are like great
34:49
opportunities. I have not backed myself into
34:51
that. Ridiculous corner again, because
34:53
you learn from everything that doesn't quite work.
34:55
And then in that point, I'm sure you replayed that moment many
34:59
times. You're like.
35:00
More times than I can admit. And but you, you realise that
35:03
you could have said different things or you could inverse it
35:06
and it's kind of like you raise it and as it goes down, the
35:08
changes take place rather than having to rise up.
35:10
And you've got all these kind of hacks that you can kind of, as
35:14
you say, load the dice. One of the things that I found
35:16
fascinating that always gives me an element of perspective,
35:19
because I think perspective is really important is because we
35:24
both share a lot of kind of content online.
35:26
For me, it's mainly a podcast on YouTube.
35:27
And I know you do lots of social media and YouTube.
35:31
What I find fascinating is that I can have a hypnosis session,
35:34
could be about sleep, could be confidence, could be anxiety,
35:37
could be weight loss. And I look in the comments and
35:40
someone will say this has changed my life, you know, and
35:43
I, you know, I've stopped smoking.
35:45
I've never touched it since or, you know, I've lost this many
35:48
kilos since I've done this. And you get some other comment
35:51
that was shit. Yeah.
35:52
And, and it's just kind of like, for me, it's kind of like, OK,
35:55
so you can do exactly the same thing.
35:58
And it works miracles for one person and doesn't resonate with
36:03
someone else. And that's why I think, you
36:05
know, there's certain people that will like my voice.
36:07
There's some people like your voice.
36:08
There's other people would prefer one of those kind of
36:11
female, kind of almost mystical, kind of you relax, you know, but
36:17
you resonate with something that you like.
36:19
And, and that's the great thing about the world we live in is
36:21
that you're going to find a therapist or a change worker
36:25
that is going to work with you or for you.
36:28
It doesn't have to be the one person.
36:30
Works for everyone. Right.
36:32
And I think that also speaks to the merits of going and, and
36:35
seeing someone in person because by default, the moment, you
36:39
know, we record something, it's fixed, it's done, which means
36:43
there will be a proportion of people who that just happens to
36:46
resonate with versus a bunch of people who that just was not the
36:50
right delivery for them. But what's missing is the, our
36:53
ability to calibrate. Have we had that person who it
36:56
didn't resonate with in the office?
36:58
And you're watching all the non verbals of this is bullshit.
37:01
I'm not getting this. This doesn't, we would probably
37:04
adapt the delivery, the tone, the methodology to better match
37:09
what they needed at that moment. Whereas I think that is the, the
37:13
danger I think is really the, the danger of judging hypnosis
37:17
based on fixed delivery online. You know, it's a good way of
37:22
exposing yourself to, but I, you know, it's a bit like watching a
37:28
plumber do a YouTube clip on how to fix a particular kind of
37:32
pipe. And then when someone goes home
37:34
and starts trying to do the same fix on their different pipe, it
37:37
didn't work. It's like, well, it's a
37:38
different pipe, different system.
37:40
Different, yeah, different, different variables.
37:43
And I, I probably publish more hypnosis sessions than most
37:47
hypnotherapists out there in the world, but I have this
37:49
controversial thing where I don't believe that's real
37:51
hypnosis. That's recordings of real
37:53
hypnosis. But it can only be real hypnosis
37:56
if you have that kind of loop with the client in front of you
37:59
where you've got that ability to kind of diagnose and calibrate
38:02
and kind of change in real time. But I look at it that there's
38:06
enough people in the world that actually that hypnosis that I
38:10
created, that one person may also help.
38:13
And I frame it as if it helps one extra person out there in
38:15
the world. It's worth it, but it.
38:17
Sometimes helps more than that. It's that element of, you know,
38:20
it will for some people, it won't for others, and that's
38:22
that's OK. Oh, 100%, you know, and I mean,
38:27
it's funny, I've got I've got a video on YouTube or which was on
38:30
how to deal with air hunger, which is I think one of the most
38:33
common yet unspoken about symptoms of anxiety.
38:38
It's likely my biggest runaway video with thousands and
38:41
thousands and thousands of views and comments, all from people
38:44
going, oh, my word, I can't believe it.
38:46
Finally someone's talking about this.
38:47
This has changed my life. And then of course, there's
38:48
still someone goes, can you just get on with it?
38:51
Why? Why did you spend so long
38:53
getting to the solution? Oh, and you didn't even tell us
38:55
how to deal with it. And you're like, I, I don't
38:58
understand how. And it's because the state of
39:02
the person watching does not match where they need to be in
39:06
terms of being able to take it in in a useful way.
39:08
And that's all right. You know, I used to beat myself
39:11
up about all this, you know, and then you have moments where you
39:14
realise I, I just, you can't be like everyone and you can't be
39:19
affected with every single. Person futile effort even trying
39:22
to do that. So that element of yeah, some,
39:25
some will really appreciate it, some won't, and that's OK, Is a
39:29
much better element of this element of yeah, the magicians
39:32
archetype. I'm gonna heal 100% of people
39:34
100% of the time, no matter what the circumstance is.
39:37
Kind of like, you're right, that does seem more like a delusion
39:40
because clearly that belief isn't true.
39:42
And yet someone holding on to that belief anyway.
39:44
It's like, why? And for me that had the
39:47
connotation not of but it's trying to project, which is
39:51
confidence and competence. But the opposite.
39:54
For someone to have that level of I fix people 100% of the time
39:57
actually reveals insecurity in their ability because otherwise
40:00
why would they need? The whole.
40:02
Connected to them well. I.
40:04
Always remember someone posting, and this was a fun one and I
40:06
talked about it publicly because it really tickled me well and
40:10
they tagged me Howard Cooper. When you sort out your hairline
40:14
then you'll be entitled to tell us what goes on in people's
40:17
heads. I like, I like the the, the
40:22
randomness of that. And as a bold man, I can I can
40:25
appreciate the humor there. What was the connection?
40:27
Well, I don't know, but because. He had a good hairline.
40:29
I did thank them and said just watch after my hair transplants,
40:34
my psychological information will be much better.
40:37
Thank you for pointing this out. I mean, but we talk about
40:40
complex equivalences, don't we? And this idea that, you know,
40:44
people make meaning out of things, you know, my wife coming
40:48
late means she doesn't love me. So if she did come on time, that
40:53
would necessarily mean she did love you.
40:55
No, these two things are not equivalent.
40:58
And often I'm listening with therapeutically.
41:00
What are the two pieces of information that people are
41:02
connecting that aren't connected?
41:04
And the idea that someone with you know who bless him, my son
41:09
this when I had a haircut recently, my son was with me and
41:13
he said, oh, is McDonald's sponsoring this haircut?
41:17
And I said why? He said, oh, because your
41:18
headline looks like the McDonald's logo.
41:20
That's. Quite.
41:22
Funny, you know? Yeah, no, I'm loving that.
41:27
But yeah, I mean, it's funny. We're always looking for complex
41:31
equivalences. I always remember someone, it
41:35
was on the Fear of Flying course that I used to work on, walked
41:38
out halfway through the presentation of the pilot.
41:43
Like, we went over to him. What's going on?
41:45
I saw a spelling error on the PowerPoint slides.
41:49
And if he can't spell properly, how can he be trusted to fly a
41:52
plane? Right?
41:56
OK then. Yeah, because it's one is
41:59
attributed to something and and what is that saying isn't there?
42:01
It's kind of like if the if the flush doesn't work in the
42:04
toilet, then you question if the engine's working.
42:06
So there is that kind of natural almost kind of like connection
42:11
that people make and, and sometimes they're grounded.
42:13
I always, I remember one of my very first hypnosis teachers, he
42:19
was a very, very overweight man and he was doing a one day
42:23
master class on weight loss, right?
42:27
And, and for me it was kind of like, if this is such a good,
42:33
how come you're not, you know, haven't done this on your on
42:36
yourself. And I think there is a fine
42:38
line. Sometimes it can be random A.
42:41
How can that relate to this kind of other B?
42:43
But sometimes I think it is it is an element of kind of
42:46
congruency and kind of does this person walk their walk, their
42:50
talk. Yeah.
42:51
Well, I think that if you look at is it George Polia has a book
42:54
called, It's a mathematical book called Plausible Patterns of
42:57
Inference. He talks about the mathematical
43:00
formulas that mean that we come to certain conclusions.
43:03
And as hypnotists, we do this all the time.
43:05
We'll say, if A is true, you're sitting on the seat and B is
43:11
true, you're breathing. And then C is, you know, your
43:16
hands are on the desk when I say D.
43:19
Now, if the last three have been true, the plausible pattern of
43:22
inferences, D is likely to be true too.
43:25
So this is how we do it. So, you know, and as you sit
43:29
there aware of your breathing, your hand there, you can begin
43:32
to feel relaxed. Ah, well, the brain's going to
43:34
go true, true, true, true. Next one's likely to be true.
43:38
But of course, the other reverse happens too, which is, as you
43:40
point out, if the flush doesn't work and they couldn't spell,
43:46
you know, and his hairline's not up to it, then the 4th one,
43:51
however seemingly ridiculous, is likely to also to be true.
43:57
Yeah, it's, it's the same as hypnosis.
43:59
It's the same techniques that we use can also be can backfire.
44:04
Yeah, because objectively it it can be true for someone to be an
44:08
excellent weight loss hypnotist and still be overweight.
44:12
Well, if they get results, I would argue.
44:14
How about this for a reframe? An an overweight hypnotist who
44:18
gets good results with their clients surely has to be a
44:21
better hypnotist because they overcome the mental hurdle of
44:24
the fact that they're being judged for being overweight
44:26
themselves. Yeah, I I would agree with that
44:28
because if, if that was true, if they were getting it might not
44:31
be, yeah. But.
44:34
If, if that hurdle is insurmountable and everyone's
44:36
like hold, but you can't sort yourself out, yeah, then it
44:41
becomes a then it becomes a challenge.
44:43
Just conscious of your your time because I know you have an
44:46
appointment coming up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:48
I know we were going to talk a bit about nested loops, but I'm
44:50
thinking if you're up for it, we can do another one of these
44:52
coming. Yeah.
44:53
Another time, Absolutely, Yeah. For.
44:54
Loops to say on nested loops. You were going to share certain
44:58
strategies that someone listening might benefit from,
45:02
rather than kind of like a, let's say, a traditional
45:05
hypnosis session, you know, relax, close your eyes.
45:07
You've got some strategies. So feel free to share a few of
45:10
those. Well, I, I would argue that
45:12
anxiety is hypnosis and the pattern of how people have
45:17
anxiety is due to self hypnosis. So if you look at, for example,
45:23
what I define hypnosis as, I would argue it's this.
45:27
Have you ever had the experience where someone takes a blackboard
45:30
and then they take their fingernails and they reach
45:32
across and they kind of just, and that moment of scraping
45:38
often even just describing that. And there may be people who are
45:40
listening right now who are going, oh, don't do that and
45:42
have a real squirmy feeling inside.
45:45
And then if I said, well, where did the real squirmy feeling
45:47
come from? People might turn around and go,
45:49
well, it was the, the sound of the nails down the chalkboard.
45:52
And I would point out that there was no nails and there was no
45:54
chalkboard. I just said some words.
45:56
And what happened was at that moment, people got so caught up
46:01
in the imagination of nails down chalkboard and imagining the
46:05
sound of it that they got a real response to it.
46:09
And I would argue that's hypnosis.
46:11
It's when your body has a real response to something you
46:13
imagined. We got very absorbed into it.
46:16
So now if we kind of hold that and then we back pedal and say,
46:20
well, hold on a second, let's take a simple example of dog
46:24
phobia, dog fear. How are they doing that?
46:28
Well, likely if I say to someone who's a phobic of dogs and say,
46:32
you know, when you think about dog, how do you feel?
46:34
They'll start freaking out on the chair and there's no dog
46:36
around, which means it's not the dog that's causing the problem,
46:40
it's their thoughts about dog. In other words, they've made an
46:43
image in their mind, likely of dog attacking them, coming
46:46
towards them, biting them, and then they forgot for a split
46:50
second that they were just thinking.
46:52
So their body got absorbed into it.
46:55
They had that real response. And then what happens is we have
46:59
a loop. So people go, well, I feel
47:00
anxious, therefore the imagined version of dog attacking me is
47:05
more likely to be true. And they go therefore get more
47:08
absorbed into it. And for me, this is hypnosis.
47:11
How often do we ask people to imagine feeling a feeling of
47:14
lightness or peace? And the more they get absorbed
47:17
into it, the more they feel it. The more they feel it, the more
47:19
they cycle back around and oh, it's really happening.
47:24
But I think the same happens in reverse with anxiety.
47:28
So one of the things that I think is really useful is, and
47:33
it's so simple, right? It's to get people to practice
47:38
paying attention and remembering the fact that they're just
47:41
thinking that it's not real. And a really good way of doing
47:46
it is to detach them using a set of words.
47:51
For example, if you think to yourself what's a worst case
47:54
scenario that could happen, likely that you're picturing, I
47:57
don't know. What if I've lost my job?
47:59
What if the dog bit me? Go back and have the same
48:03
thought but adding the phrase ahead of time.
48:07
I'm just experiencing the thought.
48:10
That's it. What before or after?
48:12
Before. OK, so you go, you change it,
48:14
and you just repeat it by going. I'm just experiencing the
48:17
thought. What if I got bitten?
48:20
I'm just experiencing a thought. And I like just because it
48:23
nominalizes it and dilutes the yeah.
48:27
And it really is just, it is. It really is just, you know.
48:31
Nothing real is happening. It's.
48:33
But there's something about doing that from the perspective
48:36
of rather than I'm losing my job, it's going to feel very
48:41
different to I'm experiencing the thought I'm losing my job.
48:45
Very true, because a lot of people are are time travelling
48:49
out there, they're associating into that anticipatory fear as
48:51
if it's happening in the moment and then their reaction isn't
48:55
guaranteed by any stretch of the imagination.
48:57
It's just a possibility, right? But the body's acting as if it's
48:59
happening in that moment and it's real for them.
49:02
But you're right, it's just a thought.
49:03
It's a perception. Just a thought at that moment
49:04
and the more we can help people see that it's just a thought it
49:07
becomes. Rather than hypnotising, it's a
49:09
way of dehypnotising them out of their current anxiety.
49:12
Because it's a pattern interrupts, isn't it?
49:14
It's a pattern loop, a pattern. Yeah.
49:16
And I mean, it's funny, you just mentioned anticipatory and
49:21
anxiety or I, I, I sometimes point out the comedy of the, the
49:25
phrase anticipatory anxiety. I, I sometimes joke if you go
49:29
into a bookshop and you found a, a book on the shelf because you
49:31
want to learn to cook and there was a whole chapter in this
49:34
cooking book on edible food, you'd be like, well.
49:39
See, I, I, I would question that because I, I use the analogy
49:42
when I'm speaking with clients, is that you've got two different
49:45
forms of anxiety. If someone's chasing after you
49:47
in the moment with a chainsaw, your heart is going to be racing
49:50
and you know, and that that is anxiety in the moment.
49:54
This looks like mindful anxiety, but I would say most anxiety is
49:58
the anticipatory fear. It's kind of, it's time
50:00
travelling to that thing that hasn't happened yet that could
50:02
happen. You know, if I go to the park
50:04
and there's a dog there and if he jumps up at me and all that
50:06
kind of stuff. But that's, I'll say the, the
50:10
anxiety in the moment is fairly, I mean, I would say it's
50:13
probably 1% of all the anxiety that people experience.
50:16
I would argue even anxiety in the moment is anticipatory.
50:18
It's always about the what if and I'll I'll tell you how.
50:21
And yeah, because you might be time time travelling out 10
50:23
seconds into the future. It's always about the future,
50:25
even if it's short term. Like for example, if you were a
50:28
spider phobic and I wasn't and there was a spider in the corner
50:31
of the room, Now the illusion would be you'd say, well, how
50:33
would I? You know, the spider in the room
50:36
right now it's happening. It's it's really going on.
50:39
But if I'm not freaking out and you are, how could it be the
50:43
spider? How could it be really
50:45
happening? It would be.
50:46
Because the thought, which could even be like 15 seconds ahead of
50:49
time, that it's walking towards the wall.
50:51
Exactly. Yeah, it's always the what if it
50:53
walks towards me? See, you know, the spider didn't
50:55
have a meeting that morning at the Conference of spiders and
50:57
says, right, we're going to give the fear to Adam, but not to
50:59
Howard. But I I would have a different
51:02
set of internal protesters and yours would be predicting what
51:06
if it what if it walks towards me.
51:07
Now you might then say well if it is walking towards me then it
51:11
is coming from the spider. But I've seen people who love
51:15
spiders and when the spider walks towards them they get
51:17
excited. So in that moment, as it's
51:19
walking towards them, they are thinking what if it goes on me?
51:25
True. What if there was one that said
51:27
that's a really, really, Yeah, crucial distinction.
51:29
Well, I like the idea that if ever you find yourself doing
51:32
anxious thinking, that has to be proof it's not happening.
51:35
Because think about it, if I was at the top of a Cliff worrying
51:38
about what if I fell, that has to be proof I haven't fallen.
51:42
Because if I had fallen, the last thing I'd be doing is what
51:44
if I fell? Yeah.
51:47
And now, now you say that. I'm recalling those times I've
51:49
worked with people with a fear of loud noises and, and the one
51:52
that come up a lot of time there was a genuine case where I was
51:54
working with a guy who was a an MMA fighter.
52:00
He was fighting for Bellator at the time and he said, like when
52:04
he's in these kind of press conferences and, you know, face
52:07
face offs with his opponent, he said what they don't realize,
52:09
all they have to do is come out with a balloon.
52:11
And I would fall to pieces. And and and it was this kind of
52:14
thing of you've got this kind of very kind of like intimidating
52:18
guy. He was, he built like a brick
52:20
shit house. But at the same time I can.
52:22
Relate. Yeah, it was.
52:25
It was this element of the balloon, but it wasn't the
52:27
balloon itself. It was the anticipation.
52:30
What if the balloon pops and that was what was causing the
52:34
anxiety? So he couldn't take his child to
52:35
a birthday party because there's all the balloons, whatever pops,
52:38
and he freaks out and he gets judged for that.
52:41
There was this kind of domino rally of kind of, well, this
52:45
would mean this would mean this, and it was all anticipatory.
52:48
And I said, but surely you've been a time in an environment
52:50
when a balloon has popped. And he was like, well, yeah, but
52:53
then it can't pop again, so I'm OK.
52:56
So it was this weird kind of thing where he was freaking out
52:59
about the possibility of something even though that thing
53:02
had happened, but the moment it had happened, it then couldn't
53:05
happen again. So he was OK.
53:07
So right, you're right. He was around balloons, but it
53:09
was still anticipatory because it's the what if that thing
53:12
happens? But that's why I would always,
53:15
you know, fairly emphatically argue that all anxiety is
53:18
anticipatory in, in that sense, different scales in terms of,
53:24
you know, the length of time, the length of time you're
53:25
predicting ahead. Some people say, well, it's
53:28
about the past. But what they're really saying
53:29
is because my past has been anxious about certain things,
53:32
I'm worried that it will then occur again in the future.
53:35
Yeah. And so give us that line again
53:37
to to precede the the anxious thought.
53:41
I would simply just remind yourself and go.
53:44
I'm experiencing the thought. It's.
53:46
Just a thought about, yeah, I'm just experiencing the thought.
53:51
What if this happens? I'm just experiencing the
53:53
thought that's the the the the PC version.
53:57
The non PC version is we just go you know I'm making shit up.
54:01
Making, Yeah. Absolutely.
54:02
You know, I'm just making shit up that I've lost my job.
54:06
Yeah, and, and for me, it's very similar structurally to
54:10
excitement, because if you get excited, you're also making shit
54:13
up. You're anticipating a positive
54:15
outcome rather than a a negative outcome.
54:17
So someone seeing the puppy that gets excited is what if it comes
54:21
over and and I get to play with it?
54:22
It's they're still anticipating a future event that's positive.
54:26
And all of these patterns, they can be used both ways to create
54:29
wonderful feelings and also to create anxiety, you know, and I
54:35
think, you know, why not have our cake and eat it?
54:36
If we can see through the shit that we're making up so that we
54:39
don't get anxious, but also then allow ourselves to make up shit
54:42
that makes us feel good. I'm OK with that.
54:44
I'm not purist. It's not like, well, we mustn't
54:47
make up any stories. No, you have the ones that serve
54:50
us. Yeah, make it empowering.
54:51
And because I have a belief about beliefs and it's like, I
54:54
don't care if they're true or not.
54:55
It's are they useful? And if they're useful, believe
54:57
them. And every time I meet a
54:59
conspiracy theorist, it gives me more references and evidence
55:01
that humans can believe absolutely anything.
55:03
So it's kind of like, well, why not choose the best beliefs?
55:06
The way I like to deal with conspiracy theorists is you
55:08
always just accuse them of falling for an even bigger
55:10
conspiracy than the one that they're claiming for.
55:13
So when they say, you know, oh, you don't believe that people
55:15
landed on the moon, do you? That the normal response from me
55:18
is, Oh my God, you're not one of those that still believes in the
55:20
moon, are you? Nice.
55:25
And then, yeah, because that that becomes a patent
55:27
interrupter. What?
55:28
What's the typical response when you would say that?
55:30
They just sort of just eye roll, you know?
55:33
Yeah, you know they're. Not not falling for.
55:34
It no, but but but it but I you see, The thing is it amuses me
55:38
and that's the most important thing.
55:40
Very. So I'm conscious that you you've
55:42
got to jump off if someone's listening and liking what you're
55:47
saying and maybe wants to work with you directly.
55:50
Are there any kind of useful links or resources that people
55:52
can go to to learn more about you?
55:54
Yeah, absolutely. Look, the better great place is
55:56
Rapid Change dot Works. That's where I'm housed on the
55:59
website, but also my YouTube channel.
56:02
I'm putting out lots of content regularly every week or so.
56:05
And I also go once a month and go live and take people's
56:08
questions. So that's anxiety beating hacks.
56:12
I'm also on Instagram. I'm basically everywhere, right?
56:15
So it's it's pretty easy to find me.
56:18
And yeah, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm sure the link will be
56:21
shared, but yeah, happy to people to reach out and to get
56:24
in touch. Yeah, if you send me those
56:25
links, I put it in the show notes.
56:26
If you're listening on Spotify or Apple, check out the links
56:29
and you'll be able to check out our stuff.
56:32
Howard, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.
56:33
No, it's an absolute pleasure. Loved it.
56:38
Thank you for listening to The Hypnotist with Adam Cox, the
56:42
show that gives you inside access to cutting edge hypnosis
56:45
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