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Teresa McCloy & Ashley Rescot: Using the Enneagram to Write Fiction · The Daily Writer

0:13
SPEAKER_02: Hey my friend, welcome to the Saturday edition of the Daily Rider.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: Each weekday we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
0:24
SPEAKER_02: And here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with writers and teaching that helps us apply what we're learning.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: For more, you can visit us at dailywriterlife.com.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: I have always been fascinated by personality assessments and typology.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: And if you've been paying attention the last decade or two, you probably know that the Enneagram has been the tool of choice for many people.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: A lot of organizations, companies, and churches use the Enneagram to help people better understand themselves and to enhance their teamwork as well.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: However, that's not the only use for the Enneagram.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Many fiction authors also use this tool to help structure their stories and flesh out their characters.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: So today I've brought on two amazing ladies who know far more about the Enneagram than I do to have a conversation about how we can use this amazing tool.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: Teresa McCloy is a coach, consultant, and professional speaker.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: She uses her real life process and tools, such as the Enneagram typology profile, to help her clients move from living with their hair on fire to discovering clarity about the life they want to live and the process to make it happen.
1:32
SPEAKER_02: She's also the host of the Enneagram in Your Real Life podcast, as well as the author of an upcoming book on living from rest, not rush.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: My second guest is Ashley Rescott, who's a professional violinist, educator, writer, and Fulbright scholar.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: Ashley has operated her own violin studio for nearly a decade, and she's not only an extraordinarily talented musician, but is also fluent in French, having spent a year in Paris as part of her education.
1:59
SPEAKER_02: Ashley is also a music fiction author with two books under her belt.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: The first is a collection of short stories called The Chronicles of Music Majors, and the second is a novel called A Change in Tune.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: So in this conversation, we dive into what the Enneagram is, why it's significant, and how music fiction authors can use it to tell better stories.
2:18
SPEAKER_02: Now, even if you don't write fiction, you're gonna gain a lot of insight and wisdom from Ashley and from Teresa as we talk about what is the Enneagram, how do we use it, what does it mean for us, and what can we learn about ourselves from this whole process.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: This was really, really a blast.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: Was so insightful, and I learned a ton from these amazing ladies.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: So let's get right to the conversation with Teresa McCloy and Ashley Rescott.
2:41
SPEAKER_02: Ashley and Teresa is an absolute pleasure and an honor to have you both on this episode.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: This is kind of a unique episode in that we've got two people instead of just a one-to-one interview.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: And we're here to talk about the Enneagram.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: So thanks so much for taking the time to be on the Daily Writer Podcast.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: So happy to be here.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's great to be here and hang out and good conversation.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: Now, both of you have been on my show before, but neither of you have met each other until this conversation today.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: So it's really fun to be able to introduce cool people to each other.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: So obviously, this is about the Enneagram.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: And Teresa, I'd like to start with you.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: Can you give us kind of a basic rundown of what the Enneagram is?
3:20
SPEAKER_02: Now, I want to preface that by saying that it would surprise me that people would not know what it is because I'm very deeply entrenched into it.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: So are you and Ashley as well, as are many people, but there are some people who don't really know what it is.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: So if you can give us kind of a basic rundown of what it is and why it's valuable, that would be amazing.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Sure, I'd be glad to.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: So this is my definition.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: So if you talk to any Enneagram, guru, expert, whatever, they might have their different definition, but this is mine, is that it's a psychological and spiritual system that gives us an understanding of human behaviors and motivation.
4:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's patterns in these behaviors and motivations.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: The Enneagram divides up those uh motivations and patterns into nine different personality types.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we number them one through nine.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: And it, in my language, helps us identify both the authentic behaviors that we have, our kind of truer self, and our adaptive behaviors, our kind of false self-side of who we are.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it does it around three centers of intelligence: how we think, how we feel, how we act.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: So we, the hearts of who we are, the emotion of who we are, the intellect of who we are, and the body of who we are or the gut.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's kind of the Enneagram overview in a nutshell of these, you know, three personalities in each of those three centers, giving us nine ways.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: If you really study the Enneagram, it goes down to about 128 to 100, I don't know, 200 and some variations of all of those.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: It's really, really deep at its deepest levels.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: But um, the benefits of it, and I would love to say this before we dive in, because I think the benefits of the tool are not to look at all of these false behaviors and give the excuse of, well, I'm that way just because I'm a nine on the Enneagram or I'm a five or I'm a three.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of that attitude of, so just deal with it.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: Right.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: We don't want to take that attitude.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: We want to have how does the Enneagram help me grow into the best version of who I was created to be?
5:37
SPEAKER_01: So um that's really the transformational part of the Enneagram, which I'm excited to dive into this conversation because I think for Ashley as a writer, or for you as a writer, or even myself as a writer, it is, especially in the fictional space, is how do we see that storyline develop out in a character that they go through, you know, that transformational experience and where do they end up at, or where do they not end up at?
6:03
SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited to hear Ashley's version of how she uses that in her writing uh to give us that clarity and uh an awareness of who we are.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: So love the tool, could talk all day about it, but that's kind of an overview.
6:18
SPEAKER_02: That's fantastic.
6:18
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: That's wonderful.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: I have loved the Enneagram for a long time and it just explains so much.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: And like you said, we we can't really use it as an excuse, you know.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm you know, I can't say I'm an Enneagram five, so you know, I'm gonna do like an hour at Thanksgiving.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: We're recording this the day before Thanksgiving.
6:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna relate with you all for an hour, then I'm gonna go up to my office.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't really cut it.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: I suppose I'm sure a lot of people dismiss, but I'm sure a lot of people dismiss their bad behavior by blaming it on their personality type, probably.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: So I can't I would love to say there about just to kind of give uh listeners the whole fleshed out version of that so that we can dive into this conversation is now that you've identified yourself as a five, so a five seeks knowledge and understanding to deal with you know that safety and security, that that center of intelligence, the headspace is looking for safety and security.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: The five falls in there.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: But what's beautiful about a five when they've transformed is they're not just seeking knowledge and wisdom for themselves and holding it in, but they're actually offering out their wisdom to the world.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, somebody that, oh, I've read all the books, I know all the stuff.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's great, but how do you give that light back out of wisdom?
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Um so every type, we're just using your five as an example, but every type on the Enneagram has that invitation.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: I can either, you know, keep it all to me and be all this.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm a three, so I'm very effective and efficient.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, I can do that just for me, or I can let that light be out to the world in that way.
7:56
SPEAKER_02: So wow, that's beautiful.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: Kent, you're so good about that as the writing coach and the leader of the daily writing community, is just yeah, you're very good at sharing that that knowledge with the rest of us.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: Ah, well, thank you.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: What a lot of people don't see is that so today I have uh I think I have six different calls between clients and podcast stuff and whatnot.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: Uh what a lot of people don't see is after a day full of calls, literally I take a nap because I'm like, I'm so like I only have, you know, fives only have so much emotional energy to invest in any given day.
8:27
SPEAKER_02: It's it's kind of it's really, really a strange thing, but this is not about me.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: Um so actually, let's dive into how do you actually use the Enneagram when you're developing storylines and characters, because you could get into the weeds really, really deep with any given character if in your mind you know what their type is and how they would respond in certain situations and so forth.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: So, walk us through how you actually use this amazing tool to craft your fiction.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: That's an excellent question.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: When I kind of started this version of my most recent novel, really a series, uh, I was listening to another podcaster, Kayam Wyland, a couple of years ago, and she had a post on using the Enneagram and fiction, and that really sparked a lot of ideas for me.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: And she's great.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: So I actually created like my characters for a series.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: In the past, I was like, let's try to cramp everything into one book, and that's way too much.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: You can't delve into nine different Enneagram characters and flesh out all of their stories in one book.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: So I've introduced my nine characters in book one, but I focus on just a select few of them, and then I'll focus on different ones in the second book.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: So that's one way to kind of introduce it, but not overwhelm your readers with just everyone having a character transformation at the beginning.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: So in my recent release, A Change in Tune, my heroine is an Enneagram one personality.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: She's a very high strung type one musician.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: She's on the classical music track, she wants everything to be perfect.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: And but that's challenging for her as she's working with her family members who are not all Enneagram ones and trying to deal with their different personalities.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: And so by the end, my goal, of course, is for her to have a change of heart, a change of tune, and she learns how to back off a little bit on her perfectionism, not losing the positive things that come from being a perfectionist Enneagram one, but learning how to adapt some of her dreams and goals to become a more well-rounded character and someone who can work a little bit more with others.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: And then my hero in the book one, he is an Enneagram three.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: So he's the um performer, achiever, he's a very talented cellist, he's on the pre-med track.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh, just he's a very high achiever.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, but sometimes their fatal flaw, if you will, is a little bit of deception.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: And so he doesn't always want to open up to his parents about some of his um real dreams, that he wants to be a professional musician as opposed to going into medical school like his father, but he doesn't want to share that.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: He kind of hides some things from the female lead about um what song he's playing for a concerto competition because he's afraid she's gonna be mad, that it's the same composer as who she's playing.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: And so he has to learn how to get past some of that deceptive nature of his of his Enneagram three, and learning that being an achiever, you eventually have to stand up sometimes for what do you really want, um, as opposed to what does everyone else want for your life.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: So I really focus in on those, those are my main characters, are the one and three.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: However, my um kind of pseudo-villainous, but she'll actually be the lead character in the second book, is the second sister.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: There's five sisters total, and they're each a different Enneagram.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: So the second sister, she's an Enneagram four.
11:48
SPEAKER_00: So she's a very creative personality, and she and that Enneagram one just don't see eye to eye.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: And you you kind of have to see how how do you interact with each other with those very different personalities.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, and she ends up not being the villainess by the end, and hopefully it opens up for her to grow as a person in my second novel.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: Now I have my straight up villain, and I feel badly for the eights.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: The eights are the ones I have the hardest life relating to.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, eights.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: So he's kind of the like Draco Malfoy type, you know, character from Harry Potter.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, so he's the challenger and he's he's the one that really um is constantly like goading, you know, the the perfectionist, and he just has a lot of insecurities and is and he doesn't have a change of heart in this book.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, hopefully later in the series I might be able to work something for him.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, but just definitely using at the moment using his kind of power to try to lord over people.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and then there's other so I have nine total students um that show up though in the story, and they're they each represent a different one of the nine personalities.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Some of them are more minor characters, but they'll play bigger roles in in future books.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: I cannot wait to read this whole series.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: And I have, oh my gosh, you and I could talk forever, Ashley, about developing out these characters.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: Um more.
13:15
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: One of the things, and I I yeah, one of the things I love about what you're talking about here is I see the Enneagram a little bit differently than some Enneagram teachers, in that I use what's called a harmony model, meaning that there you're tied to all three of these centers of intelligence.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: For example, your character that you're developing out as a type one, she is also connected to the seven and the four.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: So, interestingly enough, and we could have some great conversations off the podcast about this.
13:50
SPEAKER_01: You have this four character, right?
13:52
SPEAKER_01: Who's a sister and the one character, and the reason they might clash is because they actually are a part of each other.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: And that development of the four is the heart of the one, and the one is the body of the four.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: So they're I call it full circle, you know, you're flowing full circle.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: And so as you develop out these characters, I think it would be so fun uh to see them develop into their full circle selves, you know, touching on all.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: And that's the redemptive part, right?
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Of the story, yeah, is how they develop out.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we talk about the eight, everybody gives the eight a hard time.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: They're seen as that power and that challenger.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: But where would we be in the world without powerful people who stood up and said, No, you know, this is the way.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: And when that eight, two and five connect, so in Kent's harmony, he's already said he's a five, he has the eight in him.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: So powerful, if you think of a mantra for each of your characters, yes.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: So powerful wisdom brings love, which is the two.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh so his harmony, I like you know, however you see it, spiritual mantra, breath, prayer, whatever you want to call it, right?
15:15
SPEAKER_01: Is right something with wisdom, power, and love.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And another harmony is the three, six, nine, that effective loyalty and peace.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: And then the seven, four, one, which you've mentioned, some characters, the one is really goodness, it's not about their perfectionism.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: When they grow to their best self, they're about goodness, and the four is creative and the seven is joy.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: So creative joy brings goodness.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: And as you think about your characters and how they develop out and weave in this series, I cannot wait to read it because I'm like, this is gonna be so fun to watch their development.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: But uh, I love that harmony because I think it's the complete of who we are.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the different diagrams of the Enneagram that draw it out in a more psychological form.
16:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's great and it gives us a lot of depth.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: But when we really look at, like, you know, there's a center of intelligence that's left out for some people when you follow that diagram.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: So um, anyway, I can't wait to read your book.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be fun.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to read it.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: I'm a musician, and I'm a musician too.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, oh my gosh, it's gonna be so fun.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: What do you play?
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh, piano, voice.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: I used to have a music studio.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: Oh, nice.
16:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: We all three have some things in common for sure.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: A lot, all three of us are musicians.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, and that's what I think is fascinating too, as a music teacher.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: I look at my different students and myself and colleagues, and just we all do have different personalities.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: And I really try to look at my student and see what part of music is going to best serve them.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: It they may be the type one that wants to go the orchestral track, but they meet may be more of a four that's very artsy and creative and just wants to express themselves.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: And I you have to have some elements of balance, right?
17:07
SPEAKER_00: But I also do try to look at what would be the best goal for this student.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: And it may be different than what, you know, in the past, it may have been more cookie cutter, everyone had to follow this track.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: Or you look for a teacher that specializes in different tracks.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: So I have one, he's the son of a rock star, um, who's actually our pastor now, but he was a rock star in his previous life.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: So this student, I'm like, here's my electric violin, here's some pop song, like rock songs, and you figure out the pedal, you know, you go that route.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: I have others that are definitely more orchestral, or some that are um, you know, might be more wanting to compose or something.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Like my daughter is a pianist, she's seven, but she likes to make up things, but then she also has to learn the basics.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: And so I really want to give students different possibilities with what they could do with their music and depending on their personalities.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
17:54
unknown: Yeah.
17:55
SPEAKER_02: Man, there's about a million directions we could go with all this.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: I know.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh my gosh, I want to dive into so many things there.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I'm super curious because um Teresa, you're I would categorize you as a creative person.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: Everybody's creative on some level, but you very much have a creative bin, and I look, I know love stories and and movies and all those kinds of things.
18:16
SPEAKER_02: In your experience, as you have, you know, read novels, seen movies, and all that kind of stuff, are there certain Enneagram types that tend to be pegged more as villains than others?
18:26
SPEAKER_02: We mentioned eights, but are there some others that if you were to break down famous villains in stories, would they fall into certain categories more than others when it comes to Enneagram types?
18:38
SPEAKER_01: Well, and this will be interesting even for Ashley as she develops out characters within the Enneagram.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I use the word energy for a lack of a better way to describe.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's just an energy that different personalities put out.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: So I am a three on the Enneagram.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: The three and the eight both have and the seven, all three of those types have a very forward moving energy, right?
19:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh if you think of a room space, so this is character development too, they would walk into a room.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: Each of them would do it differently because of their personality, but they would vary forward mode.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: If if it was a meeting and an eight didn't see it start on time or get going, they would be like, okay, who's got who's in charge here?
19:25
SPEAKER_01: Let's get this meeting going, right?
19:26
SPEAKER_01: That's their forward energy.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, they're gonna go meet and work the room.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: A three is gonna work the room and figure out who they need to meet and who would move them forward and who do they need to connect with.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that seven is gonna bring that joy.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: They're gonna be like, let's party, you know.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: So, but they're all forward energies.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: So when you see characters in movies, when you see characters in books, you can almost feel that energy through the page or through the story.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: Um but then you take the five, the four, and uh the nine are away moving energies.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: So when they come into a room full of people, they're kind of the outside of the room, if that makes sense.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: They're gonna standing against the wall.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: Yes, they're gonna be the wallflowers.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Like if you, you know, you're writing a character in a book or in a movie, like they're the ones that we would portray kind of standing back, but they're all doing it for different reasons.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: You know, the nine doesn't want there to be conflict because they're about peace.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the five is like, you know, this is gonna take a lot of energy from me if I dive in and have a conversation.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
20:39
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that four is gonna be really always comparing am I enough?
20:44
SPEAKER_01: Am I unique enough?
20:45
SPEAKER_01: Am I different enough?
20:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, do they notice my purple hair or you know, the outfit that I have on or whatever?
20:52
SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of four in me, as you can see.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm a three with a strong four-wing.
20:57
SPEAKER_01: I have on a very colorful sweater today, if you were watching that video.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: And so then the last energy of these characters that we see is the six, the two, and the one.
21:10
SPEAKER_01: And they're what I call a toward T-O-W-A-R-D energy.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: The six is moving toward because of loyalty and faithfulness.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: They want to, they want to, I'm all about the team, I'm all about everybody else getting along.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, the two, obviously, the helper, the lover, you know, almost to that codependency place, uh, if they're not careful.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: And the one wants everything to be better for everyone.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Their perfectionism is not always about them being perfect, it's for the sake of others.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: It's a goodness for the sake of others.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: For the greater good, yeah.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: Her main character, that's going to be part of her discovery is what is this for the greater good?
21:50
SPEAKER_01: So those energies that you know, you said, how do you see people play this out?
21:55
SPEAKER_01: I think that's what can really be brought out in a movie or a written thing is that people.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Can feel the energy of that.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: And I love what Ashley said.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm writing it down because I've got to explore this more.
22:07
SPEAKER_01: I think all of us as musicians, like, I never I remember young boys, their moms would drag them to piano lessons back in the day when I was teaching.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: And you know, like, you need to learn how to play piano.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, what they really wanted to play was the guitar, right?
22:21
SPEAKER_02: Right.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: But so I would let them explore.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: And I would let them like, okay, let's learn chord patterns so that you can take that over into the guitar and you can create music and do music on your own and learn.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: Because if you learn chord patterns, that's going to carry on.
22:37
SPEAKER_01: But depending on their personality, some of them wanted to do that.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: Some of them were into the perfectionism of how music is written.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: Back in the day, I didn't know the Enneagram, but now I'm looking back, reflecting, going, oh my gosh, how music and the Enneagram.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: So Ashley, you're on a great path.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: How those two things correlate together and become expressive is going to be really fun as you explore this in your book.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh, thanks.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope that it relates to, you know, our students and and these musicians as they're kind of I love, I love the kind of young adult in the college mindset in college, and just when people are trying to really figure out who they are and what they're doing with their music or their careers.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: So good.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: So good.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: Ashley, how do you keep how do you keep this stuff straight when you're writing?
23:26
SPEAKER_02: Do you maintain some kind of a list where you have, okay, this character is this type and they have these qualities and that kind of a thing?
23:32
SPEAKER_02: Is that how you how you manage that process?
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So I um any I interviewed all of my characters before I started writing this draft of of my first novel.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: And so I again from that same podcaster she'd recommended interview your characters before you even start.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: And so I literally like turned on voice memo recording on my phone.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: And I literally was like, you know, as though I was talking to my characters, what you know, what makes them tick.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: And force of Enneagram does show you like what are their flaws, what are their strengths.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And so I was looking through those things.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I was trying to also apply it to a music setting.
24:08
SPEAKER_00: So, like my nine, he's the kind of chill guitarist uh who he wants everyone to get along and he just you know wants things to be in harmony and balanced.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I did the interviews and then was working on writing the book.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: And then last this past year, I actually was releasing video spoofs on each of my on each of the Enneagram character musicians.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: And that was a lot of fun.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm down to I started with nine and working my way back.
24:33
SPEAKER_00: I still have to do two and then one.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: And so for nine, it was like, you know, musicians that are having to take on a gig, and you're just like, I will do whatever you want.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, bride, you want this ridiculous song, I will do it.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: Or groom is then mad at the bride because he wants this.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: It's the guitar, you know, and that character is just like, how do I make things calm?
24:54
SPEAKER_00: How do I, you know, please both characters?
24:57
SPEAKER_00: And then the eight, it was just like one upmanship.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: So that was a lot of fun one too, where my character, I'm playing a split.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: It was like me on both sides of the screen, but I played like two different characters.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: And so my eight is just like, well, I can do it better, I can do it better, I can do it better.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: But then by the end, their friend walks off.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: And then they realize, oh, I just like I you can see they really wanted that friendship, but they didn't know how to go about it.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: And so it is kind of a sad ending to my little spoof, but just showing, like, hey, you need to learn, don't just one up your friends all the time because you want friends deep down.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: They want friends, they want to be accepted.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, seven was um, oh, I'm sorry, the not the achiever, the fun, loving, um, drawing everything.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: So this was the one I did like, I'm gonna try piano, I'm gonna try violin, I think I'm gonna be a singer, you know, just they're kind of instrument popping.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: I call the seven, they want the buffet of life.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Yes, like I want to walk down the buffet table and take a little bit of everything.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and in the reason you talked about the eight, you know, the reason an eight personality is so about challenger.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, their true redemptive is when they work move into uh showing up with power, but it's loving power because what they're truly about underneath is justice and truth.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: So they're really about being that hero, yes, because they're our protectors, right?
26:27
SPEAKER_01: They're the ones that truly want to protect us.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: I think the eight and the three, you asked Kent, like who gets the bad vibe?
26:35
SPEAKER_01: I would think most of us would portray those forward-moving energies as the overgo people, right?
26:43
SPEAKER_01: They're easy targets.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so they're easy targets, exactly.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: But when we can see an eight, easy target, disliked, a three also gets a huge bad rap because we're the overachievers and we're the one fake or something that come across fake, blah, blah, blah.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: But when we can move into the eight moves to the two and becomes why do I do justice and power and why do I power up on people?
27:10
SPEAKER_01: It's because in the end, I have the softest heart ever.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: They do.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: And when you can get an eight with children, watch an eight.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: This would be a neat character development, right?
27:22
SPEAKER_01: Watch an eight be softened by a small child.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: Children come into the room and the eight just turns to their heart and they're like down on their knees, playing with the kids, because it kind of breaks them and gets them out of that facade.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: And um, so it's cool to see, you know, when I think of the Enneagram through characters that we would develop out.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: I watch movies that way.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: Like I watch movies that way, I watch TV series, I read books that way, and I'm always like, oh, they're this or they're that.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: And I have to watch myself because once I characterize somebody, then I can't see them through another lens.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: Because the one thing about the Enneagram, too, is we can do all of this, but I've worked with the tool for years.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: I've walked through hundreds of people taking assessments and then having coaching and conversations with them.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: But many times I am fooled by them me thinking somebody is one thing.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: And when we really get down into the nitty-gritty, they've put on this mask because it's their work environment or it's their this or that.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: And who they really are is not who, you know, who they really are when they're at their truest self.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: And so mistyping is a thing sometimes, but it'll be fun for you to develop out your characters under these lenses.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: And of course, when I'm doing a spoof.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're kind of playing on some of the like I hate to say it, but like you know, stereotypes.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: And so in a book, you can actually flesh out the characters more than in a you know, two-minute YouTube spoof as well.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, but at least enough to kind of like capture the idea of what that musician might be like, you know, or the six.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: I have students that are like, I just want to play for myself.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to play in front of people.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: And so my six is like playing at a Christmas party, and somebody comes over to like listen to her play on the piano, and she's like, I'm gonna hide behind the prinsetta or something, you know, because she doesn't want, you know, that external.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: She's worried what they'll think of her, but she loves to just play music for herself.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, or four, just very creative.
29:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm four probably.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: And so just wants to be unique, wants to express herself, loves the romantic era of music.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: And and then three, though, yeah, learn kind of what what do I need to do for this audience?
29:47
SPEAKER_00: What I need to do for this audience and adapting for their audience.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then two, I'm eventually gonna do one on the TV.
29:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that three is very chameleon-like, which can be a great skill.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: Um it's interesting as I've studied the Enneagram too, like countries even have personalities.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: So like the United States, yeah, the United States is a type three country.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: Interesting because we're driven, we have this, you know, we we hear all the time, like, you know, how productive are you being?
30:23
SPEAKER_01: How how much are you getting done?
30:25
SPEAKER_01: All of that.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: And we compare a lot to each other, but then we're a country that adapts, like we adapt to whatever.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just interesting when you really dive into the Enneagram how countries literally have personalities and their governmental approach, their you know, political views, all of that.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: So um it's just such a fascinating topic, you know, and and way of lens through which we see the world uh and can see one another.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Because I think the beauty, the true beauty of the Enneagram is also the empathy that can it can give us towards each other, you know, rather than me looking at Kent and going, I don't know why you'd need to take a nap after you've got six calls today.
31:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean working out with our energy.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean, just keep pushing through, right?
31:16
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm a three, so my energy is way forward.
31:20
SPEAKER_01: My daughter is a type five, so I've had to go, okay, so how do I give empathy towards someone who is different than me?
31:33
SPEAKER_01: And how do I give true love and empathy to those who aren't just like me?
31:38
SPEAKER_01: Because what we'd really prefer in our worst self is for everyone to be just like us, because then we can understand them and we can, it's easy.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: It's you know, it's not hard to build the relationships and to build the trust and all of that.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: So, to me, one of the most beautiful things of the tool of the Enneagram, whether we're writing a book or living it out in real life, is the empathy piece that as human beings we learn to have for one another.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: It would be fascinating.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: When I read about the type five, and my husband is the type five, I had so much more insight into what, oh, that's why he that's why he takes this way.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: That's why it is this way, and realizing, oh my goodness, the fact that type fives really latch onto one person and they are very loyal to that specific person, and realizing, oh wow, he picked me to be that person in his life, you know, because I'm something like, why don't you want to talk to somebody else about this or talk to somebody else about this or whatever?
32:36
SPEAKER_00: But he then it made sense.
32:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, type fives, they really pick that one person that they will open up to, and they don't feel like they need to open up to everyone else.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: They just, you know, open up to, you know, in this case, it's to me mostly, you know.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: And then I had so much more understanding of where he was coming from.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: Well, then this is really fascinating.
32:59
SPEAKER_02: I don't I've even I had not considered why I'm approaching my ghostwriting business this way until this conversation.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: This is one of the reasons why I do podcast interviews, and Teresa, I know you do the same thing where you just have great conversations about things and you learn a lot.
33:14
SPEAKER_02: But you know, with ghostwriting, and this really doesn't have anything to do with with writing fiction or anything, but with ghostwriting, there are a couple of approaches you can have with this kind of a business.
33:22
SPEAKER_02: You can try to build a big agency where you're managing lots of writers and you're taking on tons of clients and all that stuff, or you can have the kind of business where basically you do only a select number of books a year and you want to dive deeply into those stories and really do a great job on those rather than having to manage a bunch of stuff.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: It didn't occur to me until today that my personality type is indicating which which the reason that I want to build my business a certain way.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting how how this tool of the Enneagram can explain in many ways, it explains world history and why countries interact with each other the way that they do.
33:56
SPEAKER_02: Maybe even certain towns have certain personalities, states have certain personalities, organizations.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: It's just such a fascinating tool that just explains almost everything about our psychology and our interactions.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: And it's really fascinating.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I love to say it's both a psychological and spiritual tool because people do also want to say, Well, where did this come from?
34:20
SPEAKER_01: Can I trust this?
34:22
SPEAKER_01: What you know, what is this crazy Enneagram thing?
34:25
SPEAKER_01: And I want to go.
34:26
SPEAKER_01: The beauty of it is it kind of is this living thing.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: Like you can't, it's not like the Myers Briggs or the Disc or some of these other personality profiles that we use.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't even really like to say that the Enneagram is a personality tool, um, but that's the easiest way to explain it because it's a lens through which we can give context to who we are and why we behave and are motivated or not motivated by the ways that we do and the actions and inactions that we take.
35:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it can be used in so many ways for awareness, uh, you know, spiritual growth, uh, all kinds of different things.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: And so it's really hard to nail it and peg it into one peg and one hole.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: I think that's been the disservice of the Enneagram, is as it's come on in popularity in the last, you know, eight to 10 years, people want to peg it into a hole.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: And I want to go, well, it's been around longer than most people would ever care to, you know, if you really go back in history, a version of it, obviously not an online assessment, but some type of version of it has been around in the spiritual space for a really, really long time.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: The psychological space kind of picked it up and developed it out further.
35:48
SPEAKER_01: So it's a marrying of the two.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: So it's so different than any other tool because of those two things.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: So I want to I think at the end of um, is it a road back to you?
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Do you remember who who what are the names of the authors again on that one?
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Ian Kron and Susan Stabil.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: I loved how at the end it showed that God encompasses the best parts of all nine personalities, and that we, if we're you know faith-based, that that's what we're aspiring towards.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: We want to have those best aspects of the nine personalities in, you know, in a healthy, holistic sense, and that God does have, you know, the best parts of each of those.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: And I I agree that you know, that's the true transformation is when uh we develop out to that.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: So as you see your characters develop, even in the books of like, this is the light, for lack of a better word, that we give to the world.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: So if I can look at loving who I am as a three, because, or I could shame myself, which is what the heart space does, and say, you know, well, you know, I'm I can be deceptive, I can be afraid of failure, I can be all these things, or I can say, no, what I'm to shine to the world is that I'm effective and efficient.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: And that's if I can show up with that, or what Kent is to shine to the world is the wisdom that he brings to help someone develop out their book.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: And he he does that through a wisdom space, not through a hoarding of knowledge.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: That's when we become the best versions of ourselves.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: That'll be what I think is fun as any author would do in developing out their characters, is that's the journey we want to go on as a reader, right?
37:27
SPEAKER_01: Is to see uh the story flesh out and go, oh, that could be me.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: I relate to that character.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
37:38
SPEAKER_02: Let me wrap this up with this question, Teresa, uh, because I know our time is kind of winding down.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: Let's reverse all this.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: So we've talked about how the Enneagram can help us write fiction and with storytelling.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: What about the other viewpoint where is there an element to where when people are trying to explore the Enneagram and really understand themselves and understand others?
37:59
SPEAKER_02: And this amazing tool, is there a space for diving into fiction and stories as a way to help us understand ourselves or understand the Enneagram better?
38:08
SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's a great question.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: A great five question, by the way.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: As he looks at the other side of things.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: I think there is, and I think that's what I'm taking away from this conversation, is I'm excited for books like Ashley.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: I have a whole community of facilitators that I train to uh use not only my personal uh uh process and coaching, but also the tool of the Enneagram in some respects.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: It's our core tool.
38:38
SPEAKER_01: So I'm sitting here thinking, wow, I can't wait to share Ashley's book and her series with all of my facilitators or recommend it because I do think there's a place to say, like, if you read through this book, look at, you know, look at these characters.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: Do you see parts of yourself in there?
39:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, what do you see that you love about this character?
39:03
SPEAKER_01: What do you see that frustrates you?
39:05
SPEAKER_01: Because many times what the frustrating part is because it's something we see in ourselves, right?
39:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh that we can always see flaws in other people.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: But when we turn them around, we go, wait a second, that's because that's what's in me.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: So what do I need to notice about that?
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, what what do I need to take in in that moment?
39:26
SPEAKER_01: So I think fiction, movies, whatever it is, that creative part that praise God for the type fours in the world that give us this creative material.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, because many times they're the ones giving us the music.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm a lyrics person in music because words matter and the depth of that can speak to us.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's going to be fun, uh, even as I'm thinking about working with people around the tool to use material uh in a fiction way that can really reflect to us back um the truest parts of ourselves and let us, you know, discover that through fiction.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Fiction is also safe.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that resonates, but a fictional story is safe for us to explore in kind of this reality, non-reality world, and then bring that into reality.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: Well, Teresa, I always like to ask people who read it, what character did you like best?
40:33
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm always curious to know like which which person did you most relate to?
40:38
SPEAKER_00: And it's fascinating to hear, you know, like it tells me something about that reader if I know which character they identified with, you know.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's awesome.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: Well, this has been an absolute blast.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: Wow, we could go on with this for hours.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: We've just opened up a whole can of worms about all kinds of things.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: This is a series, Kent.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is probably a series.
40:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know anybody who's really written extensively about fiction and storytelling or the Enneagram.
41:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure people have.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: I just am not aware of it.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: So, Ashley, maybe that'll be uh a book for you down the road.
41:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, I know it's an area of interest because um, I know Thomas Umstadt, he does the novel marketing podcast.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: And I know he recently has been looking for experts on this specific topic, the fiction and the Enneagram.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: So nice.
41:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, it sounds like you're the perfect person.
41:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there you go.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: Cool.
41:23
SPEAKER_02: All right.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: Well, let's wrap this up um by if each of you can share where people can find out more about your your work, uh, your creative work and actually your books.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: And to Teresa, I don't know if you want to talk any about your upcoming book um that'll come out later on, but you're welcome to if you'd like to.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, sure.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll go first and you can find uh out more about my coaching uh business and my facilitator program where we teach and train people not only to use our process in coaching called the real life process, but also around the tool of the Enneagram.
41:59
SPEAKER_01: And that's easy to find the real lifeprocess.com.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: We spell real life with one L.
42:06
SPEAKER_01: I am excited and thank you, Kent.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: Um we'll have further conversations, but I am uh just finished and sent it to the publisher.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh my new book that actually tells some of my life journey as an Enneagram type three and my recovery of that and uh our family story, and then actually shares our process of how I do life differently.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: I call it a modern day role of life and how life is different for me.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: And the Enneagram was a huge, huge tool in um that transformation.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: So hopefully it'll be out next year.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, we've got lots more work to do and editing and all the fun things, as you guys both know as authors, but um it's done.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: The framework is done.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: That's all that that's what counts.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: Keep us posted.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: I want to get it.
42:55
unknown: Thank you.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Teresa.
42:56
SPEAKER_02: And Ashley, how about you?
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you can find me at rescott creative.com.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: And I am a very social person, so I'm on pretty much all the socials: Facebook, Instagram.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm a little bit on Twitter.
43:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm not on there quite as often, but um I've done some Twitch and trying to do a little bit of TikTok.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, so anyway, you can find me there.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: And my recent uh release is called A Change in Tune, and you can find it on pretty much any site where books are sold.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: So ebook and paperback.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: And then you can also follow my podcast, uh Rescott Creative.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: And I've been releasing chapters from each of it each week.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: So if you are an auditory person like me, uh you can actually listen to it um chapter by chapter, and eventually I'll be releasing it um as an audiobook, hopefully in the spring-ish or summer.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: And then I um will be working on the second book, which will follow, like I said, the Enneagram 4 character.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: I also have a collection of short stories that I wrote about uh musicians as well that came out last spring.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's called The Chronicles of Music Majors, and it shows a lot of different characters.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: They weren't quite as specifically targeted to um Enneagram characters, but you can see different personalities.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm trying to help people identify at least with one of the characters.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
44:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you again so much.
44:17
SPEAKER_02: This has been an absolute blast, and we'll have to do this again.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: Wasn't that a fun conversation?
44:22
SPEAKER_02: I learned so much from these two amazing ladies, and I'm so inspired by how much they know about the Enneagram and how useful this can be to us in our lives, in our business, as well as in our fiction.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: I want to encourage you to check out their social media links as well as their websites.
44:35
SPEAKER_02: We'll have all that in the show notes.
44:37
SPEAKER_02: So make sure and pop on to social media and say hi to these amazing ladies and let them know how much you enjoyed this episode.
44:44
SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: I want to take a moment to let you know about our daily writer membership community.
44:51
SPEAKER_02: You know, one of the very best ways to develop better habits and impact more people's lives with your writing is to spend time around other successful writers.
45:00
SPEAKER_02: So if you're tired of feeling isolated and chasing success on your own, then I know you're gonna love the Daily Writer community.
45:07
SPEAKER_02: For years I searched for the kind of writing community that I would want to join, but I can never find what I wanted, so I created my own.
45:14
SPEAKER_02: Some of the features include weekly writing sprints, monthly community calls, book discussions, calls with guest experts, and much more.
45:22
SPEAKER_02: For more info, you can visit dailywriterlife.comslash community.
45:27
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.