Latest / Gladden Longevity Podcast / The Future of Longevity: Purpose, Not Just Better Biomarkers - Episode 362

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The Future of Longevity: Purpose, Not Just Better Biomarkers - Episode 362 · Gladden Longevity Podcast

0:00
But in the eighties and nineties it was more visionary.
0:02
What could we do to live longer?
0:04
What would our future become? Why do we want to live longer?
0:07
Looking at major paradigmatic shifts in those areas,
0:10
not only in the generational areas,
0:13
but also in career and business and work and education and reproduction.
0:18
So we looked at a lot of different ways that living longer would change society
0:24
and is a very fundamental core of its values.
0:27
Hey everyone, Dr. Gladden here.
0:28
I just finished a conversation with Natasha Vidamore.
0:31
She's a PhD with a really interesting background in thinking about longevity.
0:36
What's the meaning of longevity?
0:38
What are we supposed to be doing?
0:40
It's not just about the biology,
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it's about purpose and meaning.
0:42
I think you're gonna find this a really fascinating conversation.
0:46
He went from saving hearts as a cardiologist to rewriting the entire aging playbook.
0:51
Dr. Jeffrey Gladden believes 100 is the new 30,
0:54
and he's got the science to back it up.
0:56
This is the Gladden Longevity Podcast.
1:00
Welcome
1:00
to the podcast, Natasha. It's good to have you here.
1:03
Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
1:06
to chat with you. So you have an interesting background.
1:09
I'm curious a little bit about your how you got interested in all of this.
1:12
You know, not everybody goes down the route that you have into,
1:15
you know, exploring memory across biological forms and philosophies
1:21
and things like this. So was this something you wanted to do when
1:23
you were seven years old or how did you actually get into this?
1:27
No, when I was seven years old I was a dancer,
1:29
so it was the least interesting thing to me.
1:32
But the quest for longevity and the interest in life has been with me since
1:37
I was a very small child. So I think that like most people,
1:41
my career was a progression of experiences and opportunities.
1:46
Okay. So which experiences and opportunities led you down into the
1:50
the deeper ends of it? 'Cause you ended up doing a PhD and things like that.
1:53
So you must have did you meet a mentor or have an experience,
1:56
a personal experience or?
1:58
Well, everyone in my family's a doctor,
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so it's normal to be a doctor.
2:01
I just didn't want to be a medical doctor,
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so I choose a PhD. So that's getting a PhD i is not such a far reach.
2:07
It's kind of a normal thing in my world.
2:10
But I think that the area, the field in which my PhD is located,
2:14
is more unique and I think there's a very few people,
2:17
maybe one or two or three people who do have a PhD in longevity that aren't medical
2:22
doctors. So I think that in and of itself is unique.
2:26
And my approach to
2:28
My doctorate, my thesis and my methodology and all my research is unique.
2:34
No one has done one like that that I've seen.
2:36
I certainly do a lot of research,
2:38
so I'm constantly looking for people to learn from and people who
2:42
are interested in longevity and health and fitness and all of that.
2:46
So the area where I'm really focused was early very much aligned with
2:53
life extension, living longer.
2:55
Today, not so much.
2:57
longevity as an industry, which in my view is a the science of it,
3:02
the entrepreneur, business, pitching,
3:04
venture, capitalism, investment,
3:07
all of that separate one. And then the advocacy or the movement
3:11
of longevity are three different areas that cross over to make the
3:15
the field or industry. And it's gotten very conservative,
3:19
very different than
3:20
are the those of us who were thinking about it in the nineteen seventies
3:23
or nineteen eighties. ~ so that's been exceedingly disappointing to me.
3:29
Tell me a little bit sorry
3:30
to interrupt, but tell me a little bit more about the conservative nature
3:32
now as opposed to the seventies.
3:34
What what constitutes conservative now?
3:37
I think early on, more towards the eighties and and precursors to me,
3:41
certainly Dirk Pearson, Sandy Shaw,
3:43
Roy Walford, or leading thinkers back then in the field,
3:48
but in the eighties and nineties it was more visionary.
3:51
What could we do to live longer?
3:52
What would our future become? Why do we want to live longer?
3:56
And thinking about what would the future be like,
3:58
~ with many people living over a hundred in great health,
4:02
and how would that change the demographics of of age in your fifties,
4:06
sixties, seventies?
4:07
Etc., what you're supposed to do,
4:08
or who you're supposed to become.
4:10
So looking at major paradigmatic shifts in those areas,
4:12
and not only in the generational areas,
4:15
but also in career and business and work and education and reproduction.
4:20
So we looked at a lot of different ways that living longer would change society
4:26
and its very fundamental core and its values,
4:29
et cetera. So that was really important.
4:31
And we looked at
4:32
privacy, encryption, living within biological substrates to living in semi-
4:37
or non-biological substrates, to looking at biomarkers differently than today.
4:42
And I think more visionary about why we want to live longer and what
4:45
the future might be like. But today the the focus is largely
4:50
on keeping things pretty much the same,
4:53
but broadening the number of people who attend at conferences.
4:56
Speakers
4:57
Are really not stretching the field,
5:00
in my view. Prosthetics, robotics are not so included in the field,
5:06
looking at long-term memory and short-term memory.
5:09
While dementia and park and different diseases like Parkinson's and multiple scores,
5:14
ALS, dementia is part of that loss of cognition,
5:18
et cetera. But the diseases of dementia,
5:20
including Alzheimer's, are kind of put to the side.
5:22
They're they're not core.
5:24
I think they ought to be core.
5:26
And another area of looking at what type of bodies will we have,
5:29
you know, if we live longer, we're certainly going to need to,
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you know, regenerate and and
5:34
reform our bodies for not only its flexibility and elasticity,
5:38
but endurance for a long period of time.
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So those areas are often not included where the longevity field is seems
5:45
to be more interested in longevity clinics per se.
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And not everyone can go to a longevity clinic.
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They're exceedingly expensive.
5:53
And they're they're they're part of a a demographic within longevity which
5:57
is very elitist. And I tend to frown on those types of things where
6:02
I think longevity we
6:03
ought to be doing everything we can to raise all of humanity and
6:08
our species for longevity and prepare for it rather than to isolate
6:12
and have different groups that are are pushing their business for it.
6:16
Mm-hmm. I hope that makes sense.
6:18
It might not.
6:19
No, it does make sense. Makes perfect sense.
6:21
It's refreshing actually to hear because I think that from my perspective,
6:25
a lot of longevity activity now is really health optimization activity.
6:30
It's not really looking at longevity itself.
6:32
And it's to your point and a very critical point,
6:35
it's not looking at the implications of longevity or what
6:38
the opportunity actually represents.
6:40
So in our world, the way that that I've conceived of it is that
6:44
Longevity actually represents the greatest opportunity humanity's ever
6:48
had to really upgrade the human experience.
6:51
Yeah, I agree.
6:52
Yeah. And with that, our goal,
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the book I wrote, 100 is a New Thirty.
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The idea is to, when we're 100,
6:58
to have a 30-year-old body, which obviously involves regeneration,
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rejuvenation, et cetera, but also to develop a 300 or or even better,
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a 3,000-year-old mind with all the insight,
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wisdom, perspective, equanimity.
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Right, and sense of wisdom, quite honestly,
7:14
that is required in the world for the world for humanity to survive on one hand,
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but also for us to step into a different world of possibility.
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And I think it's to me it's it's incredibly exciting to think about that.
7:26
So in in the work that we do, we spend a lot of time devoted on both
7:30
the thirty year old body, helping people,
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you know, take them out of the issue that they're dealing with,
7:35
but then work with them to actually rejuvenate and regenerate.
7:38
But we also do a tremendous amount of work with the nervous system.
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And the brain, because I feel that all of life comes down to one thing,
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and it's optimizing the nervous system.
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How we think, how what we feel,
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what we believe is true, what we think is possible,
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the stories we tell ourselves,
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all of it comes down to the nervous system.
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And so
7:56
Developing that and realizing the interplay between the nervous system
8:00
and the biology, this has been lost,
8:02
quite honestly, from my perspective,
8:04
because we've sliced and diced people up into a hundred different parts with
8:08
a hundred different specialists and nobody talks to each other,
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and that's not really medicine.
8:12
So what we're developing here with AI is a systems biology approach that integrates
8:16
the psychospiritual along with the health,
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along with longevity itself, looking at the hallmarks of aging
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as well as performance, as well as the environments we reside in.
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And we get excited about that because it is asking the bigger question
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or addressing the bigger opportunity,
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if you will, of can we really upgrade the human experience?
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Wouldn't it be wonderful to actually have a 30-year-old body
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and a three thousand-year-old mind and all the capabilities
8:40
and wisdoms and opportunities that come with that?
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I think it's not for me, it's not about golf for another fifty years.
8:45
So that's how we how we think about it.
8:47
So when I think about you know that opportunity,
8:50
I'm drawn to the idea of sitting around.
8:54
chatting about the conversations you were having in the seventies
8:57
and the eighties on these topics,
8:58
right? Because it's looking ~ kind of through the Huxley,
9:02
Orwell, I mean, you know, kind of people kind of peering into the future,
9:06
like what's possible, what's what could possibly come about.
9:09
It wasn't in the seventies. No,
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it was in the eighties and nineties.
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Okay.
9:13
Okay. Yeah. Regardless. It was it was an earlier version of people starting
9:17
to think about longevity and the implications of longevity and what
9:21
the meaning of life might even be at that point in time.
9:24
So I don't know if those were parts of the conversation also.
9:27
Did anybody get into the meaning of why we're here?
9:29
Almost.
9:31
So that was primary to the discussion.
9:33
Yeah. Yeah, I would think so.
9:35
But it's not today. So that's an another big contrast to today with
9:39
the longevity industry. Philosophy is not included.
9:43
And even the, you know, I'm a the futures theorist as well,
9:48
and that's not included. And that doesn't bother me.
9:51
That's fine. I think there's plenty of opportunity for different themes
9:55
and different perspectives. But what I am concerned about.
10:00
Is that longevity, if it's just going to be an industry and a business where there's
10:05
no fact checking and there's no philosophical rigor which brings
10:10
in critical thinking, that w that does concern me.
10:13
Likewise, as a futures theorist,
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If there is not included a discussion of the future,
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who will we become, why we even want to live longer,
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how do we deal with all the advances that will take place,
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the ones that we can imagine, the ones that are even unimaginable?
10:32
That needs to be very much
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integrated into the broader discussion.
10:36
And so that those can be separate things.
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I certainly work in those areas and I do events and when I give talks
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at conferences, which I do a lot,
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I do bring these in, but I'm I'm an outlier in doing so.
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And people love it and it's unique,
10:53
but the the attention turns to the business end of it.
10:57
Longevity has become an entrepreneurial seeding spot with venture capitalists,
11:02
as I said, and and angel investors and funds to do that.
11:06
And I I I think that's great. But I I I don't think that ought to take away from
11:12
the core reason we even discuss or participate in longevity.
11:17
so that it I it's become a something that's ~ almost
11:21
mechanical in a way. It's lost its as you were talking about what you thought
11:26
of the brain and the and the nervous system,
11:28
the central nervous system, the peripheral nervous system,
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and what I call the exoperipheral nervous system.
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This nervous system is so important.
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It's our it's our brain trust.
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And that nervous system cannot survive in a meaningful and a healthy
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way if it's just focused on money.
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And who's an entrepreneur and who has followers and who's the influence right?
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I think that weakens the whole insight of what you were talking about wisdom.
11:53
It it lacks the the the ingredients and the the love of wisdom.
11:58
Yeah. No, I I completely concur with you.
12:01
I think there's a I think there's two sides to the coin as I see it.
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One side is there's definitely disease and decline,
12:08
right? This is something we're all familiar with.
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We saw it as children in our grandparents or great grandparents or whomever.
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Then we saw it in our parents,
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and we see it in ourselves, and then we can even see it in our children.
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So there's this drive to mitigate disease and decline,
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right? I think that's one thing that drives the quote unquote on longevity space.
12:26
Well the key is to cure aging and aging is the diseases of aging and so aging
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is not the
12:31
Yeah, that's right.
12:33
wisdom of aging, but aging as a degeneration and senescence of our our body.
12:38
That's right. And and and we all we all can relate to that.
12:42
And so when somebody says, ~ I don't have to have my leg cut off,
12:46
I don't have to, you know, be demented,
12:48
I don't have to blah, blah, blah,
12:49
get cancer or have a heart attack,
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it's very appealing to people.
12:53
And I think that's part of what the longevity movement is about.
12:56
I think it's a little confused because for me that's a little more about health
12:59
optimization. ~ but it's one side of the coin.
13:01
The other side of the coin, however,
13:03
is this concept of what is the opportunity that's created.
13:07
when we have the ability to extend healthy bodies and continue to expand our minds.
13:14
What is what is what is that all about,
13:15
not only for the individual, but for families,
13:18
communities, societies, the planet,
13:20
the solar system. You know, there's lots of different things that come into play
13:23
here. And to your point, I don't really hear anybody talking about
13:27
the meaning of all that. You know,
13:28
why would we want to do that? And in my own spiritual life and progression,
13:32
I've I've discovered my own meaning for life,
13:34
right? And so I'm I'm very
13:36
clear about why I'm here, it's really from a loving place to create joy.
13:40
And it's the opportunity to create and co-create and to expand that.
13:44
And that's it. And there are many,
13:46
many different activities that go into that.
13:48
But but being able to think about that and plan for what you can see
13:53
and then all the things that you can't foresee,
13:56
you know, it's kind of an interesting intellectual challenge,
13:58
but it's also an existential challenge at the same time,
14:01
right? So pretty, pretty cool.
14:02
What are your thoughts?
14:04
I'm w on which area? Why am I here or or what are my goals for being here?
14:09
Yeah, well, okay, let's make it real.
14:11
So why do you want to live for a long time and what's your purpose in doing that?
14:17
What's the meaning of life for you?
14:19
Ha yeah. I think it's very, very simple.
14:22
It's not a a spiritual one and it's not a religious one.
14:25
It's just ~ I love life. And the idea of life in
14:30
no matter what substrate or or system life exists within,
14:36
I just am mesmerized by it and find it so remarkable,
14:41
you know, thinking about
14:42
you know, quantum mechanics and physics and looking at,
14:45
you know, the universe and all the different life forms within the universe
14:51
and the uniqueness of life forms,
14:52
it really intrigues me. And how some life forms overcome illnesses
14:58
and diseases and even death because they have the accoutrements to
15:03
do so within their biological makeup.
15:05
Like the bull bullhead whale lives longer,
15:09
or the naked mole rat has its own biological system that defies certain diseases.
15:15
And there are certain animal forms or are life forms that just can go into like
15:21
a cryptobiosis and come out of it.
15:23
There are certain species that can tolerate extreme conditions like freezing
15:29
or dehydration or excessive heat.
15:33
or lack of oxygen and their bodies just go into these states
15:37
of again cryptobiosis and when the weather changes and the conditions,
15:41
environmental conditions change to be more suitable that they come out of it.
15:45
And I I I think that's fascinating.
15:47
Another area of life that I find fascinating is the element of water.
15:52
It can be ice, it can be crystals,
15:53
it can be liquid nitrogen, it can be rain,
15:55
it can be water, it can take these forms and transform.
15:58
And because of that, that there is cer are certain
16:02
elements in the world in the universe that can transmutate matter and change form.
16:09
I've always found that fascinating.
16:11
And I thought that probably the human could do that if we had the technology
16:16
to do it, since we don't have the biology to do it.
16:18
So my purpose in life is to think about human evolution,
16:23
which I spend a great deal of time thinking about.
16:26
And my love of life or mu or ~
16:31
of of life itself is so genuine and I'm impassioned by it that that makes
16:37
me want to keep on living and stay alive even through you know horrible pain
16:43
and and severe loss and you know terrible troubles,
16:46
they they disappear when the the beauty of life or the experience of life
16:51
you know takes hold. So nah I love that too and we talked about memory earlier.
16:55
I love the fact that while we're in pain or anguish,
16:59
the feeling
17:01
the the the sensation of it and the the idea of it is is so adverse
17:06
and so horrific but when we move out of it out of that particular environment that
17:12
causes it or that we're interacting within then it's gone our memories
17:17
are designed not to give us that pain again and we may remember how painful
17:22
it was but we don't have that sensation of pain again some people do I have
17:26
a I have a bit of a a sensorial
17:29
a cognitive thing where I can feel the pain of other people.
17:32
And it's it's not very good thing to have.
17:34
It's a horrible thing to do to have.
17:36
~ but I think that people who are oversynthesized that may be super sensitive.
17:41
It's not so good. But I think normally speaking for our species that it's
17:45
a really wonderful gift that we have that we don't remember how pain that
17:49
we don't feel that pain again.
17:50
So I like that, but I I I that particular issue of our biology
17:56
how it's structured, I think that it makes a an example of what other things could
18:00
be. And I don't know what the the of those other things are at this moment,
18:04
but I think that it ties into the transmutation of matter and looking
18:08
at what we could become as a species.
18:11
A lot of people may think that this is,
18:13
you know, our our hum Homo sapien sapien is is where we are and this is
18:18
the the end of our species. I've never thought that and not since I was a child.
18:22
Never. So it's that's very
18:25
imbued in my philosophical and my theoretical work as well as my practice.
18:30
Yeah, that's quite
18:31
interesting. What I'm hearing,
18:33
and you can correct me if I'm wrong here,
18:35
is that you're you're really in love with the phenomenology of life,
18:40
all the expressions of life, all the permutations and expressions and adaptations.
18:45
~ there's a deep and profound love for the phenomenon of life almost,
18:51
is kind of what I'm hearing.
18:53
Well, to a degree, but there's some things I don't like at all.
18:56
And it's part of life, but it's just like I don't like the devil and
18:59
I don't like evil, but I don't like scorpions and I don't like tsunamis.
19:04
So there's certain elements within life that I find abhorrent.
19:08
And so I s try to steer away from from those elements.
19:13
But what I do love from those elements is the the the resilience of life forms like
19:20
humans and specific animals in nature that
19:23
That overcome these odds to rebuild their communities and and restructure
19:28
and get back to work. It's kind of like the there's a parable about.
19:32
The ants and a grasshopper. The ants work and work and work and work.
19:36
You know, they never stop. They're they're just workers.
19:38
the grasshopper tends to kick back and,
19:41
you know, play the fiddle or whatever.
19:43
And so both have purpose in life,
19:45
to be sure. And I think there's a balance in between those two.
19:48
So I not all the not all phenomena of life I love,
19:52
because some of it is horrific.
19:54
But I do love the the design wise sensibility of it when it works beautifully
19:59
and it makes sense.
20:01
I s I I I understand what you're saying.
20:03
I think for me there is ~ incredible beauty in in life itself.
20:08
And I'm eternally fascinated and eternally curious about how it all works
20:13
and all those kinds of things.
20:14
~ I find it really, really stimulating.
20:17
And for me there's ~ there's kind of an interesting merger between quantum
20:21
mechanics, physics, some of the latest discoveries about where mass comes from,
20:25
and it's not just the Higgs boson field and the nature of light.
20:30
Mass, energy, you realize that mass is actually sort of crystallized energy
20:37
in a way. It's crystallized light.
20:39
It's really interesting to also think about this life,
20:43
the life that we're leading, with the challenges that we each face in our own way,
20:49
and the the deep learning that goes on in terms of understanding the
20:53
why and the ability to connect and the ability to have purpose,
20:58
even in the face of
20:59
adversities and other things that come up.
21:01
I kind of have a concept that you may or may not agree with,
21:05
but I have a concept the earth is kind of an escape room that we're born here
21:09
and we find our way to not only appreciate it and love it,
21:14
but also to transcend it to where we see it for what it is and see it
21:18
for what it isn't. So this is part of the three thousand year old mind.
21:21
But it's it's really interesting because it's incredibly liberating.
21:24
And I I I'm curious in your philosophies
21:27
whether or not there's anything that happens after a physical death
21:31
or nothing happens after a physical death or I I have a sense I know the answer,
21:36
but I just thought I'd ask you.
21:38
To be really ~ honest, I have no idea.
21:41
There is certain issues with I none of the religions really sing to me.
21:46
~ I have been religious in my life.
21:48
I've practiced several religions,
21:49
but they were more comfort blankets for not understanding or or
21:54
not having the intellectual acumen to really,
21:56
you know, sort through information and historical signifiers and and
22:02
~ and a lack of knowledge to understand mythology and and lore and why we need
22:08
stories and myth to assuage our fear as a species.
22:12
But I I'm kind of someone who really supports the idea of transmutation.
22:18
Again, that matter transforms.
22:20
And, you know, if you're you're buried in the ground and you your body goes into
22:25
the soil and gets, you know, eaten by bugs and all those things happen.
22:29
You degenerate and disintegrate and all of that.
22:31
You become part of the soil. I think that's a beautiful,
22:34
lovely story about the
22:36
matter and the combination of matter and reassembly of matter,
22:40
but I I don't believe in any way,
22:42
shape, or form that it it holds my identity or my consciousness.
22:45
I just think it's a matter of matter,
22:47
a matter of e exchange of chemical components and composition,
22:51
all of that. I think there's something very separate in the brain
22:55
and with memory and imagination that almost defy matter in a sense.
23:01
And as relevant to our our senses as humans and
23:06
relative to the senses of other animals like dogs,
23:09
etc. They have different sensorial combinations that give them different cognitive
23:14
abilities. But for us
23:17
For me, it's all about my senses and my brain.
23:19
My body, you know, it's it's an older body,
23:22
and I I love my body and I work out a great deal,
23:24
and my lifestyle is very much of a high-end longevity expert.
23:29
Yeah, I take a lot of pride in my resilience physiologically and my athleticism.
23:35
But I also take as much honor and respect for my brain and
23:39
my intelligence and creativity,
23:41
and I don't think that that's all for naught.
23:44
I don't think that
23:45
when we die that yeah, it can go to different spiritual areas and all
23:50
of that and maybe later one day we'll understand the chemical components
23:54
of our brain rather than the material biological components.
23:57
I think that that's the future of longevity,
24:00
perhaps getting into the chemistry of it all rather than the
24:03
the mere biological shape and form and interactions of it all.
24:07
But for me when I die I'm dead.
24:10
And I think that's a very sad thing 'cause I don't have any mythology that
24:14
I really rely on and I I think has an answer.
24:18
I think that the reason why most of us in longevity in our various fields,
24:24
there may not be such a love of life.
24:26
Maybe some people are just doing it 'cause they want to be famous,
24:28
you know, they want to sell a book or build a company and and make some money
24:31
or whatever, or because it's the cool thing to do now.
24:34
Longevity's cool, so everyone's into longevity and and that's a great that makes
24:39
a movement. But so it I I think that there's when people get into
24:43
it because of loving life, I think that's great.
24:46
But again, you're asking a question that is not part of the lore.
24:50
It's not part of the the discussion in longevity.
24:53
Most people just say, Don't say death.
24:54
There you there's a group of people that are it's a religious group that's that
24:58
don't you even mention the word death.
25:00
It's
25:01
not allowed because you don't acknowledge death,
25:03
it won't happen. Which to me is is a very I mean it's it's
25:07
an interesting proposition, but it's it's it's really I I it harbors
25:11
on something that I'm very unfamiliar with.
25:13
~ it's ~ kind of creepy to me.
25:15
But I do love that I love that when people say we're going to live forever,
25:21
but don't understand ~ no, I don't love it.
25:23
I d I really don't like when people say we're gonna live forever,
25:26
we're gonna
25:26
And aging, and we're all immortal,
25:29
but they don't understand what that really,
25:31
really means as engineers and dealing with matter.
25:35
It we can't live forever and b as biological beings.
25:39
It's just it's fundamentally impossible,
25:41
just like immortality is fundamentally impossible.
25:44
Immortality is for biology, not for something else's biology.
25:48
And immortality means you cannot die.
25:51
The reason why I think it's it's not the most intellectual approach.
25:56
is because and for this main factor,
25:59
the idea of death and the meaning of death throughout the lexicon
26:04
of interpretations of death has changed over the over the millennia.
26:09
It's changed. You were dead if you couldn't feel the heartbeat.
26:12
You were dead if you no one put a mirror under your nose and saw any,
26:15
you know, moisture. You were dead if you just didn't say hello.
26:18
You know, now we know that those people were in a in a kind of a stasis state where
26:23
they just need some electricity to the heart.
26:25
needs, you know, air into the lungs.
26:27
So I think that those examples of redefining when a person dies
26:33
are very, very important to the field of longevity.
26:36
But again, here's another area that's not discussed.
26:39
Redefining death, I think, is going to be a very big topic in longevity
26:43
in the coming years as we develop more technologies to wake someone back up.
26:48
to intervene with the the doctor saying you're dead,
26:51
there's no more we can do. Well,
26:52
there's going to be more we can do because there that's just who we are.
26:55
We're problem solvers. And in your field as a medical doctor and
26:58
and your your expertise as a cardiologist looking at heart failure and
27:02
and what goes on with the heart,
27:04
you know that the heart is an organ and it's been there's so many different examples
27:09
of a how the heart has been dealt with it when it's sick.
27:13
So there's all these different variables there that I find are really interesting.
27:17
So all this is to say that I don't know what happens to me when I
27:22
die because I don't know how the term death is going to be redefined.
27:27
And I don't know what technology or science or methodology or protocol will
27:32
be used to intervene and bring me back to life if the you know,
27:37
if if I die and then I'm brought back within,
27:39
you know.
27:40
a fair amount of time before too much senescence or degeneration occurs.
27:44
And also a second part of that is
27:47
So the definition of death changing is one part of that.
27:50
The second part is that with the advancement in technology and AI
27:54
and and and anaerobotics and microrobotics and all that,
27:58
it's probably going to make sense that we'll get to a point where we're we'll people
28:03
say, I've had enough. I back up my computer,
28:05
I back up my phone, I have all these security protocols,
28:08
but nothing for my brain. I need to back up my brain,
28:11
I need a security protocol for my brain.
28:13
And to me it's it's almost so contrary because
28:17
Our brain is our most precious organ,
28:19
and yet we don't have a security for it.
28:22
We don't have encryption for it or some kind of insurance for it
28:27
or backing up systems. So I think when that becomes more mainstream
28:32
and there's more research done in that area,
28:35
that has been done in the past,
28:36
and something I've been interested in for at least 40 years,
28:39
I think that that will really change the face of longevity as well.
28:43
Yeah, it's interesting. One of the things you're talking about referring
28:47
to for the audience is, you know,
28:48
~ biostasis, ~ almost crier preservation when you're talking.
28:52
No, I wasn't referring to it at
28:54
No, you don't have to. Okay. It's it's it's implied.
28:58
One way there's there's so many uploading,
29:00
there's so many different methods,
29:01
but you're correct it was alluded to.
29:03
Yeah. So yeah, it's it's it's implied.
29:05
But but it does raise an interesting question of how long somebody is,
29:10
you know, recoverable, so to speak,
29:12
and what happens in the interim.
29:13
You know, in in my experience,
29:15
I'm I'm more on the spiritual side of the equation,
29:18
but not on the religious side.
29:19
I find all the religions to be quite corrupted and very inadequate
29:23
in from any almost perspective,
29:25
whether it's scientific, anthropologically,
29:28
sociologically, even morally for that matter.
29:31
But I do think that spirituality has a real role.
29:34
And I've had some really deep spiritual experiences that have really confirmed that
29:39
to me. And I you know, for me,
29:41
when I die, I just think I'm on to the next adventure.
29:43
So this is I'm I'm immortal already.
29:46
So I don't really have anything to worry about.
29:47
Like if I if I'm killed on the way home today,
29:50
~ from the office, hey, I'm good,
29:52
right? I've had a beautiful existence and I'm on to the next adventure.
29:55
But while I'm here, I'm really fascinated with
29:59
you know, the opportunity to actually optimize the nervous system
30:03
and mankind and create more joy and actually try to take us out of this very
30:08
~ interesting problem that we find ourselves in,
30:11
which is we're technologically advanced and we're kind of very tribal
30:15
and primitive in our ways that we relate to each other.
30:19
And so it leads to this big disparity,
30:21
quite honestly, between technological capability and wisdom,
30:24
if you will, which leads us to all kinds of possibilities,
30:28
right?
30:28
Whether it's AI, nuclear war, you know,
30:30
whatever happens, or whether or not we can navigate this and actually I'll
30:35
use the term wise up, but to kind of get wiser to the point where
30:39
we can actually manage some of this and maybe maybe expand into another stratosphere
30:44
of human activity, which would be like super interesting to me.
30:47
So that's kind of where my thoughts go with it.
30:49
They may not be exactly yours,
30:51
but I'm just sharing. So yeah.
30:53
Well, not exactly. I suppose that I look at humankind rather than mankind
30:58
and I think there's all sorts of possibilities of where your identity
31:02
or your consciousness could go once your biology ceases to exist or function
31:07
in this material world. I I think that there's all sorts of possibilities.
31:11
The only issue that
31:13
most of us have that aren't totally committed to that philosophy is
31:17
no one's come back and told us about it.
31:19
So but so what? Maybe it's not even important.
31:23
I I just I think that the mendacity of where we are today is is really sad.
31:28
We've advanced so much in so many different ways as humankind,
31:33
but I think that social media
31:37
is a mirror of the the inadequacies and the the ignorance,
31:42
overall ignorance that we as humans still have.
31:46
We meaning almost everyone. I don't think anyone is above it.
31:50
And if they're not
31:51
using the social media to increase their ignorance,
31:53
they're doing something else. I I think it's it's part of our ~ human psychology,
31:58
perhaps, that we almost need to gossip.
32:01
We almost need to be biased or cognitive bias.
32:04
We almost need to form these clubs and tribes of them and
32:10
us or the outliers to have this kind kind of sociological network or tapestry
32:16
~ to fit and
32:18
That's a sadness I have about being a human.
32:21
It it r it does it does make me sad.
32:24
And I watch people become sycophants for people they think are important
32:28
and they'll excuse someone's bad behavior because maybe they
32:32
had a best-selling book, or maybe they're on the cover of a magazine.
32:35
So, okay, they did something bad,
32:37
but they're on the cover of the magazine.
32:38
Our moral compass is so
32:41
skewed. We don't know where true north is.
32:43
And and I think this is this is a generalization.
32:47
And but I think it's a common denominator of humans psychologically today.
32:52
And it's not that it hasn't been like this before.
32:55
It has. You look at let them eat cake or whatever,
32:58
you know, you know, Napoleon. You know,
33:00
if you think about these the narcissists through throughout history,
33:03
but the the
33:04
the followers that allowed it to happen.
33:06
You think of Hitler and the followers that,
33:08
well, if they didn't, they would be killed.
33:10
Yeah, I understand that. But I would still do everything possible to
33:15
get out of Dodge, you know? I I I I I I would I would get on a boat
33:20
out of here rather than go along.
33:22
So we have in our psychology she go along with whatever is accepted.
33:27
And like today it's accepted to be woke or accepted to be
33:32
I don't even want to get into political stuff,
33:34
but I think Ed Sheeran, the the musician,
33:37
his latest concert wa is a prime example of it was so out of place
33:42
to turn an artistic arts event into a political ~ platform
33:48
to create a salvo that not everyone in the audience agreed with,
33:51
and maybe not even the host of the event agreed with or the the lead singer.
33:55
But to use that was so manipulative and to me so egregious.
34:01
Whether I agreed or not, it's egregious to do that.
34:04
But you look at it, so it was cancelled,
34:06
all these things happen. But you look at the the social media outrage
34:10
and backing someone who he doesn't even give facts.
34:14
I don't again, I don't want to get into that,
34:15
but and look at what's going on in Paris right now with the
34:19
the protesters because they don't like the school.
34:21
Well, what is it they don't like about it?
34:23
That almost doesn't matter. The details don't matter.
34:26
It's the group mentality.
34:28
to destroy and scream that and it's almost like an Edward Munch print
34:35
of the scream. And I feel somewhere in humanity there's this need to just scream.
34:40
You see it in in all the cairns during,
34:42
you know, COVID or people yelling,
34:44
road rage. You see it all over and it's it's like we're being bottlenecked.
34:49
where people just want to scream.
34:50
And that could be part of the fight or flight,
34:52
part of our brain that isn't getting nurtured enough.
34:55
Maybe it's starting to rebel. But I find that very frightening because it's
35:00
psychologically deranged to have that much hate and fear and bias.
35:06
And this is something that is not talked about within longevity either.
35:10
But I think it's a very important discussion.
35:13
More people are interested want to talk about how AI is going to kill us,
35:17
which I do not agree with.
35:18
at all rather than how social media is destroying us or how
35:23
the tribal psychology of groupthink right and it's antithesis
35:28
to our work in longevity for the beauty of life.
35:33
Yeah. Yeah, I would I would agree with you.
35:34
I think the tribalism is part of it.
35:36
I think binary thinking is part of it also.
35:38
yeah. Yes, right. No, wrong. Yeah.
35:41
Black, white. Yeah, exactly. That's right.
35:43
Yeah, we fought about it for four thousand years,
35:45
we'll keep doing it, right? So yeah as binary thinking is really,
35:48
I think, a problem. And then for me the alternative to that is both curiosity
35:54
but also the analogy I use is quantum thinking,
35:56
where you have a field of all possibilities and you're looking
35:59
for the best solution, right?
36:00
Well, that's the basic work of a futurist.
36:02
That's what we're taught to do.
36:03
You look at preferred futurists,
36:05
future with an S, and then you strategize and you use all different methodologies
36:09
to to find out how you got there and to to develop that.
36:13
Yeah, it's strategic thinking,
36:15
and you're absolutely right.
36:16
Yeah. And I
36:17
think I think the other thing that plays into it that I've seen
36:20
and discovered and and discovered about myself is that a lot of it boils down
36:25
to like for example, anger, anxiety,
36:29
worry, stress, angst, even greed.
36:32
A lot of that boils down to people not feeling safe.
36:35
When you kind of keep peeling it back and peeling it back,
36:38
they don't feel safe. And you know,
36:40
the people that are protesting,
36:41
they're protesting because they want to feel safe.
36:43
And it's interesting
36:46
that we have this concept that something external to us can make us feel safe
36:51
if we vote for the right party or we live in the right country or we ascribe
36:56
to the right group or we go to the right church or we do you know whatever whatever
37:00
the group is, right? That we will be safe.
37:03
Safe
37:03
and not left out. I think that's part of it too.
37:06
Not left out.
37:06
Exactly.
37:07
Not left out. Right. And and part of safety for a human is to be included,
37:12
right? So we want to be we want to be lovable,
37:14
we want to be acceptable, and we want to be safe.
37:18
It's kind of those three things.
37:19
And so one of the realizations that I've had is that there's nothing external
37:24
to us that can ever make us feel safe.
37:25
Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing can,
37:28
right? All of it can be taken away.
37:29
And we've seen that a million times through history,
37:31
right? If not more. So if that's the case,
37:34
well then how do we actually
37:36
give ourselves safety. That's where the spiritual solution comes for me.
37:40
It's a no, I feel connected to source,
37:43
to God, to love.
37:44
It's
37:44
spiritual for you and I I I get that.
37:46
For me, it's I don't call it spiritual.
37:49
I just think it's a sense of self-worth and trusting in myself.
37:55
I feel very safe with myself. Not always.
37:58
I think I had to mess up enough and catch myself messing up and figure out
38:03
why I did the bad act or the wrong thing that I did or the inappropriate thing that
38:08
I did and to really think about it and see what was part of my learned behavior.
38:14
wherever I learned it or however I learned it and realized it wasn't benefiting
38:18
me or creating a safe zone for myself and to eliminate it.
38:22
So I think that there remember in the 1970s,
38:25
it wasn't longevity so much, it was self-help.
38:27
Shakti Guan. Shaktiguan, I think that was her name.
38:31
Yeah. I started meditating, doing transnom meditation at 18 years old.
38:35
So I've been doing that for 50,
38:37
60 years or something. But Shakti Guan wrote about not meditation
38:42
but creative visualization, visualize who
38:44
Want to become and see it and recognize it so well that you become it.
38:49
And I think that that's a practice in business,
38:52
it's a practice in so many athletes.
38:54
You know, remember it was art in the art of tennis or art
38:57
in the motorcycle maintenance.
38:58
I mean, there's that was a spiritual book.
39:00
But if you visualize who you want to become and you learn that language
39:05
and follow that behavior and that the how you get your body to change from being
39:09
slumped to standing up tall.
39:11
From frowning to smiling, all these physiological changes change the psychology.
39:16
And so the
39:17
The image that we put out, we're reflecting back.
39:20
So I guess you could call it all spiritual and and that's fine,
39:23
but it seems that being safe means you trust in your own decision making enough.
39:29
I think people have you know, you mentioned religion.
39:31
I think people feel safe in the Catholic Church or the Jewish church or the Muslim,
39:35
whatever, or the Buddhist, whatever,
39:36
because they're told they're they'll they'll have an afterlife
39:39
or there's something that they're safe.
39:41
But for the rest of us that don't practice that,
39:43
we need to know that it's just not our community.
39:47
It's us that will make the best and c and choices.
39:50
But now I don't want to get binary on this best worst,
39:53
but the choices that would benefit us and our environment the most.
39:58
And practicing that on a daily basis is like a longevity lifestyle practice,
40:03
getting good sleep, eating well,
40:04
exercising. But I think that ought to be part of the the vernacular with longevity
40:09
lifestyle. Yeah. Like are you eating well?
40:11
Are you behaving well? You know,
40:13
it's like, you know.
40:14
Yeah, and to your point, are you imagining well?
40:16
I think the idea of of becoming in many respects is an act of remembering
40:23
who we really are. And this is ~ also informed by a spiritual I mean,
40:27
when do we when we come to understand that we are God's energy that chose
40:32
to be incarnated here and go through this escape room to figure
40:36
out all these different challenges and hurdles and things,
40:38
but actually when you reclaim who you are,
40:40
it's like, ~ okay, well everything's fine.
40:42
And from that place of equanimity it's like what can I do to be helpful from a
40:46
It sounds very Buddhist, Buddhist or Sufi like.
40:49
I don't I don't ascribe to any particular brand of anything.
40:52
I just know what's kind of become true for me.
40:54
I don't have any memory of what I'm supposed to be.
40:56
I just know who I I need to be.
40:59
There you go. Well what I mean by remembering is that we are already what
41:02
it is we think we need to be. We are already that.
41:05
It's what gets in the way is the traumas that we've experienced and
41:10
the things we're living in reaction to,
41:12
the things we've been told and taught that we're not what that we're not this,
41:15
we're not that, you're just blah,
41:17
blah, blah. And we have to work our way through all of that and heal all that,
41:20
become grateful for it and transcend it to realize,
41:23
now I'm unencumbered from all those traumas.
41:25
Not everyone has those traumas.
41:27
yes they do.
41:28
Everyone does. Everyone has traumas,
41:30
trust me. I
41:31
No,
41:31
everyone has traumas, but I don't I don't think that everyone has
41:35
had a horrific childhood.
41:37
No, it's doesn't have to be horrific.
41:38
It doesn't have to be horrific.
41:40
There's
41:40
always a bully who's gonna tell you you're a piece of shit and you may believe it.
41:45
But my point is everybody's separate problem.
41:46
That's
41:47
Yeah. I was just at a family wedding over the weekend in New Orleans and
41:51
I had to deal with, you know, a couple of siblings who really aimed to hurt me.
41:57
And it was interesting. I had no I had no bad feelings.
42:00
There's one I just didn't want to be around.
42:03
I just I just didn't want to be around.
42:06
And it's not there was no animosity on my side.
42:09
I just
42:10
I knew it wouldn't make me feel good,
42:12
so why be around that you know,
42:14
that person? Just like anyone who will get under your skin or try to make
42:18
you feel bad or f make you into a lesser than you are.
42:20
And those people are everywhere.
42:22
They don't have to be siblings.
42:23
They are everywhere. And I think people let me ask you your thoughts on this.
42:28
I think people get off on it. I think it's kinda like it assuages their
42:32
it gives them energy. It gives them,
42:34
you know, they're like
42:35
Yeah.
42:37
Yeah, they get something out of it.
42:40
Right. And I can almost see it when when there's something said and I just
42:45
I I watch their body language and look at their facial expression
42:49
and there's almost like this self satisfaction.
42:51
You know, I did it. And it's something I've
42:54
I didn't notice it for a long time.
42:56
I knew it was happening, but I didn't pick out the identifiers.
42:59
It's like the tells, you know,
43:00
you're gambling. I don't gamble.
43:01
Gamblers when they have their tell.
43:03
There's people who have their tell.
43:04
Narcissists have their tell too.
43:06
And there's, you know, all these different psychological that keep
43:11
us from being better people or who we who we know we can be.
43:15
They there's always the tell and you can catch it in yourself too.
43:18
Like what is the tell for that behavior?
43:21
There it is. Yeah. That's good observation.
43:23
That's good self-knowing, right?
43:24
Mm-hmm. You know, one of the other things that we talk a lot about here
43:28
is that stress, you know, about not feeling safe,
43:32
that stress comes from being attached to outcomes.
43:35
yeah, I think so. I think what we're supposed to do,
43:38
who we're supposed to be, who you know Yeah.
43:41
Well yeah, I had yeah, I think all of us have had stress out of
43:45
who we're supposed to become in ~ but none of it really matters.
43:48
I look right now, and maybe this is part of my maturation at this
43:52
at this particular juncture in my life is I've accomplished so much,
43:57
more than I could have ever imagined,
43:58
actually. And I always wanted to be famous,
44:01
a famous person. Not because I wanted the fame.
44:05
I just wanted the idea, the creativity,
44:07
whatever it was that was unique that would set me apart.
44:10
And so maybe famous isn't the right word.
44:13
I never thought about being wealthy.
44:15
Never entered my mind for a moment.
44:17
But being the person that stood out because I had the idea or I had the insight,
44:22
that always as a child really ~ spurred me into being
44:27
an explorer and adventurous. But looking at it now,
44:30
I've accomplished so much. There's more I do want to accomplish.
44:34
However, I'm looking at people I know who I I care about and I
44:38
see them struggling to make their persona big or important.
44:42
That's okay. But then I'm looking what is it that they're trying to
44:46
be important for or about? And oftentimes it's just a veneer.
44:51
It's nothing
44:52
It's right. And why do why do you need to be important anyway?
44:55
Yeah.
44:55
To be a famous singer, a famous actor,
44:58
famous author, famous scientist,
44:59
be these. It's like it doesn't matter.
45:02
It's the community or the i it it doesn't matter if you stand out
45:07
as being the person that has so many likes on social media.
45:11
It doesn't matter. Who cares? You're never gonna meet those people anyway,
45:15
right? So
45:15
No, I know. I know. It's just yeah.
45:18
Yeah it's it's interesting.
45:18
It's bizarre.
45:21
Do you ever watch the TV series Black Mirror?
45:24
No, I don't really watch TV.
45:26
I watch
45:26
TV a lot because it's it's for me for my research,
45:29
it it shows me, you know, what the mainstream is largely thinking about outside
45:33
of social media. But there was a show,
45:35
it was science fiction, and it it was about the different things in the future,
45:39
different sociological shifts or things that would happen.
45:42
And it was really scary. But what was scarier when I started seeing those things
45:47
happening in real time. Like who would ever imagine politically we'd be where
45:51
we are now where people are yelling about democracy?
45:54
~ it's just it's horrifying to
45:56
To me, or that people are or saying,
45:59
you know, everyone should die.
46:00
~ the group that was called OK Boomers?
46:04
You ever hear that group? Like,
46:06
okay, you're over 60, go ahead and die.
46:08
You know, you're fit. No,
46:09
I I've heard I've heard people say things like that.
46:11
but
46:12
th these these social groups, it's it's really very strange to me.
46:16
So let me ask you this. What do you suppose those of us
46:21
who aren't interested in all this mund mundacity,
46:23
all this mundane stuff, that really are thinking about loving life,
46:28
who do love life, who don't need
46:31
all this other attention who just want to do our work in our own way,
46:35
small or big or whatever, to help bring our species forward just even an inch
46:41
or a step towards a 3,000 year wisdom.
46:46
What are I mean, I think there are some of us who are really seriously working
46:50
on that. I know it's part of my portfolio of things I work on because wisdom
46:57
I'm so glad you referred to it.
46:59
It's it's been part of my my work for years,
47:03
away from maybe wisdom as the ancients talked about wisdom,
47:08
but more about wisdom from firsthand experience and how individuals gain knowledge
47:13
and wisdom. What do you think is something that would be paradigmatic that could
47:18
that could shift the large aspect of our species,
47:21
the people in it, to be more
47:23
Less binary, let's just leave it at that to be less binary.
47:26
~
47:27
That's a really
47:28
that's a really big question, right?
47:29
So how do you how do you take a planet that's ~ in some ways hardwired into
47:34
tribalism and binary thinking and it's a vestigial construct in the brain,
47:39
I think, of how to how to survive,
47:41
procreate, and stay safe. And so when you've got it wedged in there that deeply,
47:46
you know, apart from some systematic reprogramming from the outside,
47:50
or people
47:51
sort of waking up to the limitations of that way of thinking and being,
47:56
right? And I think if we get to a point where enough people experience
48:00
the limitations of that way of thinking and being,
48:02
it's like, no, there has to be something different and better.
48:05
Then it's like, well, what is it?
48:06
Well then you have people like yourself and myself potentially,
48:09
you know, talking about other ways of looking at these things and other ways to be.
48:14
And I think that's
48:16
You know, that's hopeful in itself,
48:17
but it feels like feels like a drop of of ~ water in an ocean,
48:21
right? So I I don't really have a great answer for you,
48:23
except I know that the the way to do it is to start a movement.
48:27
And that starts with people who are passionate about,
48:31
you know, upgrading the human experience and creating those things,
48:34
right?
48:35
That
48:35
with transhumanism, we it was the core of it.
48:38
I remember when I wrote the manifesto,
48:40
the transhuman manifesto in 1982-83.
48:44
I said, let us, it was about longevity and evolving.
48:47
I said, Let's not only evolve in our body,
48:50
but also in our mind.
48:52
Yeah.
48:52
And I've always felt that that is the our mind,
48:56
our brain, who we are, what the mind is,
48:59
which is like psychology, intelligence,
49:01
all of that. We need to.
49:04
evolve in it. This it's it's kind of tiresome the state that we're at.
49:09
I mean I love some people like Bill Maher and these few comedians that will
49:12
get out there and get give it to us raw like ~ Richard Ger Gervais Ricky Gervais.
49:17
I love it when it's like people you know just telling us who we are
49:21
I think those are great wake-up calls but they're not they're not strong
49:25
They're
49:25
not transformative. They're not transformative.
49:27
Yes.
49:27
And I don't think that the Dalai Lama can do it.
49:31
I don't think that it's while social media is taking people into
49:35
the binary trenches, there's gotta be s there's always a balance in nature.
49:40
There's got to be something else.
49:42
And I always thought it was Yeah,
49:43
Psychedelics. Psychedelics.
49:45
I tried that, but I I can't do them at my age.
49:47
But it's I never needed psychedelics.
49:49
I was already there.
49:50
Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm holding that out as it i it you know,
49:54
it can be a ~ there are many ways for people to break through ~ sort of the veil,
49:58
if you call it. You know, Natasha,
49:59
this has turned into a really lovely conversation.
50:02
However
50:03
I just looked at the
50:04
I'm gonna have to stop it at this point.
50:07
I'm happy to do a part two with you though,
50:09
if ~ if you're up for that.
50:11
to psychedelics.
50:13
I know I think enlightenment. I think that is the crux.
50:16
And what could we build that could counter this,
50:20
~ this it's it's it's gotta be something.
50:24
It's it I I really
50:26
You're on the right track. Yeah.
50:27
Enlightenment is a piece of it for sure.
50:29
Well, Nishasha, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us here.
50:32
Yeah. Great to chat.
50:34
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50:38
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