Latest / The Legal Exchange / Estate Planning Mistakes: Wills, IRAs, Creditors and Gifting Assets

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Estate Planning Mistakes: Wills, IRAs, Creditors and Gifting Assets · The Legal Exchange

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This is The Legal Exchange with Todd Lutzke from the
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: law firm of Cushing & Dolan and Susan Powers of
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the Armstrong Advisory Group. Each week, Todd and Susan will
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: discuss many topics, including estate planning, how to avoid probate,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: and protecting your money from a nursing home. If you
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: need assistance in any of these areas or have a
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: question about another issue that may affect your future, call
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  Speaker 1: 866-848-5699 to make an appointment. That's 866-848-5699. Operators are standing by. Now,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: here are your hosts, Todd Lutzke and Susan Powers.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Welcome into The Legal Exchange with Todd Lutzke. I'm Susan Powers,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group, and I'm
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: joined by Todd Lutzke, a partner with the law firm
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: of Cushing & Dolan with a master's in taxation. Welcome, Todd.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: How are you today?
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: I'm never better, and you?
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: I'm great, thank you. What do you have for us
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  Speaker 2: this week?
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  Speaker 3: Got a couple of cases. We're going to head over
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: to Georgia for an appellate court case there. And then
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  Speaker 3: we head over to Missouri. In Georgia, it's, I mean,
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  Speaker 3: how do I say this? Be clear who is in
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  Speaker 3: and who is out and make sure we know how
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  Speaker 3: a no contest clause works. I think that's a nice
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  Speaker 3: setting in terms of, it's all about drafting and you're
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  Speaker 3: going to learn, might need a Venn diagram for this case,
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  Speaker 3: but we'll get through it. But again, the planning is
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  Speaker 3: so important. And then we head over to Missouri and
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  Speaker 3: there's a case there dealing with IRAs, whether it's a
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  Speaker 3: probate asset or not a probate asset. But more importantly,
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  Speaker 3: is the IRA subject to estate creditor claims when you die?
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  Speaker 3: And how does that work? And we'll get into whole
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  Speaker 3: estate recovery issues and a lot of interesting issues here
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  Speaker 3: when you're thinking just about probate. But of course, there's
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  Speaker 3: a lot more to planning. than avoiding probate, folks. And
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: in that regard, when I say there's a lot more
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: to planning, the new guide for the month really is
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: making the most of gifting your assets, because we're getting in,
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: we're getting closer to the gifting.
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: We are.
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  Speaker 3: Time.
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  Speaker 2: And being thankful for it.
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  Speaker 3: And at the end of the day, you know, do
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  Speaker 3: we gift? What kind of assets do we gift? Should
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  Speaker 3: we gift? How do we gift? I mean, there's so
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  Speaker 3: many questions. It's not so easy as to just write
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  Speaker 3: a check. Folks, you need to think about the capital
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  Speaker 3: gains tax ramifications of gifting, the loss of a step-up
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  Speaker 3: in basis. Is it worth competing with the estate tax
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  Speaker 3: savings that you're getting? What are those rates? Is it federal?
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  Speaker 3: Is it only state? Do I want to add a
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  Speaker 3: kid's name to a joint account? How do joint accounts work?
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: How do adding a kid's name to a house work?
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: Is it a good idea to give away a house
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: or a vacation or a rental property? Folks- This is
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  Speaker 3: one of the most comprehensive guides. There's so much in
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  Speaker 3: here when it comes to thinking about how gifting fits
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  Speaker 3: into your estate plan. Call and get the guide 866-848-5699
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: or LegalExchangeShow.com. Again, 866-848-5699 or LegalExchangeShow.com. And you can always
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: go to Cushing Dolan PC for more information on our
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  Speaker 3: Instagram page. Georgia. Let's head there. Get your Venn diagram out.
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  Speaker 3: So Susie Bell did a will in 2003, and her daughter, Carol,
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  Speaker 3: was the personal rep. The will identified six kids and
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  Speaker 3: one deceased son, Larry, and distributed assets all to the spouse,
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  Speaker 3: if living, which makes sense, otherwise to the surviving children.
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  Speaker 3: The will later went on to say, Should either of
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  Speaker 3: my children pre-decease me, then I bequeath to my children's
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  Speaker 3: surviving child or children receive my deceased child's representative share
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  Speaker 3: of any interest I may have in any property to
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  Speaker 3: share and share alike. If that's not confusing language, I
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  Speaker 3: don't know what is. So that was a quote from
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  Speaker 3: the will.
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  Speaker 2: So if no kids, then grandkids, basically.
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  Speaker 3: But why say it like that is our point, right? Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: In 2018, there was a handwritten codicil disinheriting Carol, one child,
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  Speaker 3: and leaving Kathy $ 25. The original will did not have,
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  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, the original will did have a no contest
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  Speaker 3: clause in it. The original will. Not sure about the codicil.
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  Speaker 3: March 2021, Susie dies. Survived by her kids, Carol, Kathy, Teresa, Walter,
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  Speaker 3: and nine grandchildren from deceased kids.
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  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you need a Venn diagram. So Teresa submitted to
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  Speaker 3: probate the will and the codicil. Carol objected, of course,
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  Speaker 3: because she's disinherited, and litigation ensued. The probate court said
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  Speaker 3: the original will is valid, but the codicil is not.
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  Speaker 3: And the original will showed intent to include the grandkids
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  Speaker 3: from the deceased children, which I think it did.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: In some roundabout way. Carol didn't like that, so she appealed.
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  Speaker 3: The appellate court reversed in part and remanded in part,
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  Speaker 3: stating that the will was ambiguous as to her intent,
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  Speaker 3: which again, I don't disagree with that, and need outside
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  Speaker 3: evidence to come in to determine how this should play out.
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  Speaker 3: But went on to address the no contest clause. which
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  Speaker 3: was in the original will, remember?
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  Speaker 5: Yep.
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  Speaker 3: And said they didn't understand why the probate court disregarded this,
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  Speaker 3: but they did. And they said that, no, the kids
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  Speaker 3: who challenged Carol's qualification as personal representative will be barred
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  Speaker 3: from inheriting. They are out. Wow. Okay.
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  Speaker 2: And that Carol that.
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  Speaker 3: I would think so.
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  Speaker 2: She's... Because she was out in the codicil, wasn't she?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so she was out in the codicil, so this
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  Speaker 3: didn't help her case at all. She didn't help herself any.
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  Speaker 3: But nevertheless, the court said we still need to go
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  Speaker 3: back and make sure that grandchildren are in.
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  Speaker 2: So let me just clarify something.
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  Speaker 3: But at least Carol's out.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Let me clarify something here.
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  Speaker 5: Sure.
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  Speaker 2: You don't have an answer for us.
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  Speaker 1: I do.
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  Speaker 3: Carol's out. But we got to check on the grandchildren.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you get back to us on the grandkiddos, would you?
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  Speaker 3: So to me, they're a little more, well, actually, Carol
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  Speaker 3: being out is a pretty important fact. Oh, sure.
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  Speaker 2: That at least is good because I would want her
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  Speaker 2: to be out.
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  Speaker 3: I have a funny feeling the grandkids will be in.
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  Speaker 3: But folks, you know, we need tips and lessons here.
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  Speaker 3: We need to learn stuff from this disaster. You know,
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  Speaker 3: what's the first thing I learned? Well, we had a will.
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  Speaker 3: Why didn't we have a trust? We're a married couple.
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  Speaker 3: First question, right? A will leaving everything to a spouse,
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  Speaker 3: which it did here. does nothing to shelter assets on
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  Speaker 3: the first death to help reduce estate taxes. If that's
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  Speaker 3: a concern of theirs, it doesn't do anything. All assets
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  Speaker 3: held jointly with your spouse will do the same thing.
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  Speaker 3: They avoid probate and they just go right to the spouse,
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  Speaker 3: but doesn't really do anything from an estate planning standpoint, right?
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  Speaker 3: So Right off the bat, I mean, I know there's
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  Speaker 3: a lot of other stuff going on here, but I
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  Speaker 3: can't help but mention that as the biggest issue that
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  Speaker 3: jumps off the page at me is, why on earth
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  Speaker 3: did we not do that? And again, if you're in
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  Speaker 3: a trust, you certainly avoid probate. Now, also doing what
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  Speaker 3: they just did doesn't provide any protection from the nursing home.
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  Speaker 3: Just goes to each other. And again, if that's a concern,
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  Speaker 3: how is that overlooked? All that said, the will, however,
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  Speaker 3: does at least direct where your assets go if it's
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  Speaker 3: drafted well. Here, the language was a little confusing, adding
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  Speaker 3: grandkids later in the will, not right after. It should
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  Speaker 3: have been put right with the dispositive provisions. The share-and-share-like
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  Speaker 3: language is not real helpful. Although the will did seem
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  Speaker 3: clear enough that it did say to leave the assets
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  Speaker 3: of the deceased child to the child's surviving children.
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  Speaker 5: Yep.
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  Speaker 3: And that child's representative share of any property. So I
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  Speaker 3: think they get there, right? The confusion seems to be
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  Speaker 3: what happens to property that is also money? It says
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  Speaker 3: it includes all property. Well, is that money or is
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  Speaker 3: that just property? Right. So I think that's maybe part
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  Speaker 3: of the confusion. Again, folks, it's all about drafting.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: You got to make sure you're clear when you're drafting,
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  Speaker 3: keep it simple, right? Language, you know, like all assets
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  Speaker 3: equally to my kids, if living otherwise to their issue
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  Speaker 3: by right of representation, stop. There is no gray area there.
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  Speaker 2: That's very clean, right?
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  Speaker 3: You know what that is. And people get confused. What's
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  Speaker 3: right of representation versus persterpes. Well, I get that right.
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  Speaker 3: Or per capita rather. Um, Right of representation means kids
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  Speaker 3: or grandkids or great-great-grandkids or great-great-great goes on and on. Right.
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  Speaker 3: Down the line.
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  Speaker 2: Until you find someone.
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  Speaker 3: Per capita, on the other hand, if it said equally
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  Speaker 3: to my kids if living per capita, well, then you
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  Speaker 3: just count the heads of the kids that are living.
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  Speaker 3: So if you have four children and one dies, it
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  Speaker 3: would only go three ways.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 3: Not four ways and then down. To their kids. to
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  Speaker 3: the kids, which is what you want. So explain, be
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  Speaker 3: clear in your drafting, and I don't think you'll run
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  Speaker 3: into these problems. But more than that, folks, there was
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  Speaker 3: no planning done here.
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  Speaker 2: No.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, just leaving everything to a spouse is not
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  Speaker 3: a great idea in the will, but at least the
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  Speaker 3: will helped. Folks, there's a lot more to planning than
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: just wills and and trust these days. We need to
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: think about whether making gifts make any sense. Do we
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: want to save mass estate tax? Do we want to
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: save federal estate tax? How do we gift? What do
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: we gift? Can we even keep control of what we're gifting? Folks,
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: call and get the guide.
• 10:15
  Speaker 5: 866-848-5699.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: Or LegalExchangeShow.com.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lutzke, a partner with the
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing & Dolan. I'm Susan Powers, a
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group. We've got much
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: more to come when we return to The Legal Exchange
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: with Todd Lutzke.
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  Speaker 1: Giving assets to your children during your lifetime may sound
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  Speaker 3: 866-848-5699. That's 866-848-5699.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome back into The Legal Exchange with Todd Lutzky. I'm
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Susan Powers, a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm joined by Todd Lutzky, a partner with the
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing & Dolan with a master's in taxation.
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  Speaker 2: Where are we headed now, Todd?
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: How about Missouri?
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: Not bad. Got IRA, probate, creditor questions. Check this out.
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: Dennis resided in a nursing home owned by Stonebridge. until
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: his death in April of 2024. Tom was his conservator
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: while he was alive and was appointed PR for the estate. Stonebridge,
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: the state of Missouri, and Tom all filed creditor claims
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: against Dennis' estate when he died. Okay. Shocker. The estate
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: was insolvent. That means it doesn't have any money.
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: Todd Hicks, by the way, Dennis Hicks was the person's name.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: So Todd Hicks is the son, I'm guessing, is named
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: designated beneficiary on the IRA. Oh, I thought the estate
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: was insolvent, but oh, let's keep going. Names the designated
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: beneficiary on the IRA is Todd, and he receives a
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: non-probate transfer of the IRA.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: The circuit court denied the petition for an accounting, finding
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: that the non-probate IRA asset was not recoverable under state law.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Which makes sense, I think.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Well, let's keep going. Of course, there's an appeal. Of course.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: So Stonebridge appeals. And the appellate court affirmed the lower court.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: The circuit court said, stating... that the IRA was not
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: subject to Dennis's debts while he was alive. And because
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: it could not have been used to satisfy his creditors
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: while living, it was not recoverable at death. Transfer to Todd.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: Todd gets to keep the IRA. This is a good
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: day for me today.
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: So he gets to keep the IRA. But remember, just
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: analyze this a little bit that, Every state is different.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: So please, folks, this is going to be a state
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: by state ruling for sure. What is recoverable against somebody's
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: estate when they die? We're going to talk about avoiding
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: probate and why that's important for all the reasons that
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: we generally want to avoid probate and mainly creditors.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: Although here the court seems to be making a distinction
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: in Missouri that we might be able to talk about
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: in mass as to how it's different in mass. Right.
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: Here they're kind of saying because it was not recoverable
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: during life, it's not recoverable at death.
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  Speaker 2: Because it's specifically an IRA.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Versus just avoiding probate, period.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: So could it be that you could still have it
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: recoverable during life? And not recoverable at death by avoiding probate.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Right, because if it were just like a non-retirement account,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: like an individual brokerage account that happened to be a
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: transfer on death, that might have been.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: So we're going to talk about joint accounts, designated beneficiary accounts.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: We've got a lot to learn in this seemingly small
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: fact pattern, folks. But this is about, again, doing planning,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: avoiding probate, taxes, all those things come into it. But
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: this is a probate side of things. But folks, there's
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: so much involved here. your estate planning and sometimes gifting
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: can make a lot of sense depending on how much
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: you're worth and what your goals are but you need
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: to learn what to gift which assets how to give
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: do i want to give away assets that have built-in
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: gain or do i want to keep them and get
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: a step up in basis and eliminate the capital gains
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: tax and not care about the estate tax look at
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: the rates you know is it a good idea to
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: put a joint name on a on a home or
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: Or give away my rental property? What are the income
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: tax ramifications of gifting? What are the estate tax ramifications
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: of gifting? Can I keep control over what I gift?
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: How do I give it away? I still want to
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: enjoy it. Folks, think about it. Learn how gifting fits
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: into your estate plan. Get this guide. It's full of information.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: 866-848-5699 or LegalExchangeShow.com. Making the most of gifting assets today.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: 866-848-5699 or LegalExchangeShow.com. And you can always go to Cushing
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: Dolan PC Instagram page for even more information. Wow. There's
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: a lot going on here. Let's run through this. We're
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: going to talk about probate assets, creditor protection, estate recovery
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: for Medicaid. We're going to factor in a lot of
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: things that we can learn from this case. So In Massachusetts,
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: and that's what we're most familiar with, so let's talk
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: about it here. Other states could vary. Say the creditors
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: of the estate can only recover. So in Massachusetts, the
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: creditors of your estate can only recover against assets in
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: the decedent's probate estate. Okay, what the heck is a
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: probate estate? Remember, you can have zero probate assets and
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: $ 10 million of estate assets. So gross estate versus probate estate,
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: very different. So the goal is to have zero in
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: the probate, even though your estate might be millions and
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: millions of dollars. Okay, so Todd, what is a probate asset?
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: What constitutes it becoming part of your probate estate, which
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: would be at risk for creditors in mass. So this
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: means any assets you die owning in your own name
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: without a designated beneficiary. You might say, oh, I got
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: an asset in my name, but I got a designated beneficiary,
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: like an IRA, like a brokerage account.
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Okay. Or not jointly owned. Remember, if it's jointly owned,
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: it's going to go to the surviving joint ownership. So
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: these forms of ownership, designated beneficiary, jointly owned assets, they
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: avoid the will and they avoid probate and they avoid
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: creditors en masse because there's no probate asset. So putting
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: assets in a trust is the easiest way to avoid probate. Remember,
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: it's title everything to the trust and it avoids probate. Remember,
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: we want to avoid probate because it's obviously the reasons
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: we all hear. It's a big headache. It's costly. It
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: takes a long time. It ties up your assets. But
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: it also helps to avoid creditors. We don't think about that.
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: We don't say that as much when we're just rambling
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: off why we should be avoiding probate. But that's a
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: big deal, especially in this case. So this is, again,
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: as a state by state comparison. So because the court
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: made it sound in this case, like if it could
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: have been, you know, available for creditors during life, even
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: though it avoided probate, it might still be at risk
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: for the creditors. So in this case, the court made
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: it sound, remember I said earlier, like only because it
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: wasn't available, the IRA wasn't available to satisfy creditors while
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: he was alive.
• 21:35
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: In Missouri, that's why it's not available to satisfy creditors
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: when he's dead. Well, that's not how it works in mass, right?
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: In mass, and let's look at it from a Medicaid perspective, right?
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Things could be available for creditors while you're alive, but
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: not when you're dead, right? So we discussed this, like,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: so with irrevocable Medicaid type trust, right? These assets are
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: designed to be protected from the nursing home. So while
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: you're alive, They're protected from the nursing home after the
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: assets have been in there, of course, for five years.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: But also, if you went on Medicaid for a while,
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: when you die, the state like here might, because it
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: was in a nursing home, puts a lien against the
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: estate to recover money it paid on behalf of the resident.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: That's called estate recovery. Well, in mass, they cannot get
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: assets in the trust.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: Because they were not available during life. That's true. But
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: they also avoid probate when you die. But remember, if
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: you had an IRA in mass and you tried to
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: apply for Medicaid, it would be available during life to
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: satisfy Medicaid. You would not be protected from that creditor
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: to satisfy your claims there. However, if somehow you got
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: on Medicaid or when you die, forget Medicaid, when you die,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: if there's other claims against your estate, Even though this
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: was available during life, if it has a beneficiary that
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: avoids probate here in Mass, it would not be available
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: for the creditor at death. So each state's a little different, folks.
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: Just like when you're making gifts, things can be different.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: Learn how to gift, what to gift, when to gift,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: why I should gift, folks. There's so many income, gift,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: and estate tax consequences to learn. Get the guide, 866-848-5699.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: or LegalExchangeShow.com, 866-848-5699.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Todd Lutzke, a partner with the
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: law firm of Cushing & Dolan. I'm Susan Powers, a
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group. Todd will be
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: answering your questions next on The Legal Exchange with Todd Lutzke.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Giving assets to your children during your lifetime may sound
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: like a simple way to pass along your wealth, but
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the way you make the gift can have important tax consequences.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan's new guide, Making the Most of Gifting Assets,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: explains what you should consider before transferring property, investments, or
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: other appreciative assets to your family. If you give away
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: an asset too soon, your children could end up with
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: a larger tax bill when they eventually sell it. In
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: some cases, holding on to that asset and letting your
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: children inherit it later could reduce the capital gains tax
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: they have to pay. That's why gifting isn't just about
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: what you give. When and how you give it can
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: make a big difference. Get Cushing and Dolan's new guide,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Making the Most of Gifting Assets, by calling 866-848-5699. That's 866-848-5699.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Or you can request the guide online by visiting LegalExchangeShow.com.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for and the views expressed are
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan and
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: or Armstrong Advisory may contact you offering legal or investment services.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan and Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: other and are not affiliated.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: You've been saying one more year for the past five years,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: and now you're still sitting in the same traffic, taking
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: the same exits, wondering when work finally becomes optional. At
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: the Armstrong Advisory Group, we help people create personalized retirement
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: plans so they can better understand their income, investments, taxes,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: and social security strategy. Don't say one more year again
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: without learning about these issues so you can make the
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: most educated decision for yourself and your family. Let us
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: review your portfolio and offer suggestions that may provide a
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: clearer timeline for your retirement. Schedule your new obligation meeting
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: today by visiting us at armstrongadvisory.com. That's armstrongadvisory.com. The Armstrong
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Advisory Group. We answer only to you.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group, a
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: registered investment advisor. Nothing in the ad or in any
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Armstrong guide is specific financial, legal, or tax advice. Consult
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: your own financial, tax, and estate planning advisors before making
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: any investment decisions. Armstrong may contact you to offer investment
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: advisory services. Giving assets directly to your children may create
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: problems you didn't expect. Cushing and Dolan's new guide, Making
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: the Most of Gifting Assets, explains how giving away property
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: or investments could mean losing control of those assets. Learn
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: about your options before you give assets away. Call 866-848-5699
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: or visit LegalExchangeShow.com. The proceeding was paid for and the
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: views expressed are solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: and Dolan and or Armstrong Advisory may contact you offering
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: legal or investment services. Cushing and Dolan and Armstrong Advisory
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: do not endorse each other and are not affiliated.
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: For many Massachusetts veterans, getting to a medical appointment isn't
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: always easy. That's why the Disabled American Veterans Department of
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: Massachusetts provides free transportation to VA medical appointments through its
• 26:36
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• 26:40
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• 26:49
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• 26:55
  Speaker 1: You're listening to The Legal Exchange, and it's time for
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Ask Todd, the segment where Todd will answer your questions
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: about anything and everything that's included in the estate planning process.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Once again, here's Todd Lutzke and Susan Powers.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Welcome back, Todd. We have a few questions from listeners
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: for you. First question comes from Barbara in Newton, Mass.,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: and Barbara writes, My father is on hospice and not
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: expected to live long. Is there a benefit to gifting
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: any assets to the family now to bring his estate down?
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: His total net worth is $ 2. 5 million, and he has
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of cash in the bank that he could gift.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Should he give away $ 500, 000 to get below the $ 2
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: million exemption amount?
• 27:36
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Now this is a very specific question with some very
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: specific facts, folks. And so I want you to listen
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: because it doesn't apply to everybody. But for this case,
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: it's going to be a quick, hard answer. Yes.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: And you don't normally get that. Right. You don't.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Usually it depends.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: So the reason is, but you have to understand why
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: I said yes and how we get there. Right. We
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: have to analyze. So He's at $ 2. 5 million. We know
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: that if he dies, the $ 500, 000 north of the $ 2
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: million mass exemption will be subject to estate tax.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: All right, well.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: What is that about?
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: Call it $ 60, 000, $ 70, 000.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: Not a ton.
• 28:18
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: Still, it's a lot of money.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: I don't want to give Massachusetts $ 70, 000.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Susan, I'm with you on that. So can I avoid that? Yes,
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: by making a gift. Because we don't have the cliff
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: rule that we used to have in the past. Remember,
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: now with the new estate tax laws that changed in
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: 2023 in mass, we don't have to worry. Gifting makes
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: sense again. But only if we don't trap built-in capital
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: gain when we give things away. Because remember, the mass tax,
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: call it 10%, 12%, 13% at this level versus giving
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: away an asset that has capital gain built in it
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: and trapping 28.8% capital gain plus 4% millionaire's tax if
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: you're over a million. So I don't want to trap 28.8%
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: capital gain to save 10%, 11%, 12% in mass. So
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: if all they had was low basis, lots of capital
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: gain type assets to give away, I might say no.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: My answer might completely change here and be no. But
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: I heard in the fact pattern that there's lots of cash.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: So when you give away cash, folks, this is the best.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Cash is king, right? When you give away cash, there's
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: no built-in gain. So I don't have, I've removed the
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: capital gains tax analysis to my gifting. It's just cash.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: So now it's pure savings on the estate tax front.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: So let's say he had a couple of kids and
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: then grandkids and great-grandkids. Would he have to do the
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: whole $ 19, 000 per person kind of thing?
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: No, too easy, right? Give away $ 500, 000. No problem, right?
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: I said the tax on $ 500, 000 would be, yeah, that's
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: all right. So no, give away the whole $ 500, 000 if
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: you got it in cash in one fell swoop or
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: whatever kids you want. to have it or set up
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: a gifting trust.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: There's no gift tax in mass. So I don't have
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: a gift tax problem when I give it away, number one.
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: And while there's a federal gift tax, I'm not worried
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: about it. If my estate's two and a half million dollars,
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: I've got a $ 15 million gift tax exemption. So who cares?
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: So I would absolutely just give away the whole $ 500, 000.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: You give it all to one kid if you want to.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: So don't worry about you know, that $ 19, 000 present interest exclusion.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: So in this particular case, giving away $ 500, 000 will eliminate
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: your mass tax and not create, because it's cash, not
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: create an adverse capital gains tax problem down the way.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Score one for the people.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: But folks, that's what this guide is all about, right?
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: That's what's great about it. Making the most of gifting assets.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Do you see what kind of thought went into making
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: this little decision about gifting $ 500, 000. You need to get
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: the guide and understand how gifting fits into your estate
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: planning world. Should I gift? Why should I gift? How
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: should I gift? Should I set up a gifting trust?
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: Do I want to be a beneficiary of what I
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: give away? Can I enjoy what I give away? Should
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: I just throw my kid's name on a home or
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: on a rental property? What are the ramifications of that?
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: How do jointly owned assets work? Is that a good idea? Folks,
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: So much to think about. Call and get the guide.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: This is packed with information on gifting. 866-848-5699 or LegalExchangeShow.com.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: You think gifting's easy? Get the guide. 866-848-5699 or LegalExchangeShow.com.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned the comment about the low basis assets, Todd,
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: because Don from Boylston has a question in this arena.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: And Don writes... Now that Massachusetts has increased the estate
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: tax exemption to $ 2 million, couldn't I just give my
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: largest assets away while I'm living and die owning less
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: than $ 2 million? I am worth around $ 3. 5 million and
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: could gift a $ 1 million vacation home and a $ 1
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: million rental property to each of my two children.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: So let's go a little slower on this one. Because folks,
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: first of all, it's $ 3. 5 million.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Is her total net worth.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: Which means I don't have to give away... two million.
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: So that's a hard stop right there. There's a million
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: dollar home, million dollar rental. I would never want to
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: give away more than I would need to get me
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: under two million. So that that's the first sort of analysis.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: Hard stop there. But let's just say we gave away
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: a one point five million dollar vacation home. Let's change
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: the facts a little. In fact, I want to keep
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: my vacation home. I like that. I want to give
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: away my rental property.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Okay. So let's say the rental property is one and
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: a half million.
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: Say it's one and a half million. And that brings
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: me nice and neatly to my $ 2 million exemption in Massachusetts.
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: And so I can die with $ 2 million and not
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: have any estate tax. And by the way, folks, would
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: that work? Now, under the new estate tax laws with
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: no cliff rule, And a $ 99, 000 credit, which is the
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: new way to calculate the mass estate tax, it emphatically
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: would eliminate the mass estate tax. So would it work? Yes.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Would you recommend it?
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: Give away $ 1. 5 million and I can save the tax.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: But likely this $ 1. 5 million has been around this house
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: with this rental property we bought probably long ago. You
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: know the drill.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: I've been renting it for the last 30 years.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: My basis is what? Zero.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you depreciate it every year.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: It's gone, right? So I'm going to give this away
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: to get it out of my estate. And I have
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: built in $ 1. 5 million of gain.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, let's run the numbers, right? 30% is $ 450, 000
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: is the capital gain plus 4% millionaire's tax.
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: So you're half a million.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah. You're looking at over half a million dollars
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: of what? Capital gain tax. For who? Not you. You'll
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: be dead. The kids.
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: You've given them a tax bill. Not a good idea.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: And they can't depreciate it any further because there's still
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: no basis.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: So if you instead kept it during life, and whether
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: you own it individually or have it in your trust,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: what would the tax have been if it were included
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: in your now $ 3. 5 million when you die as a
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: single person? What's the tax on that estate?
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: Fair question. So remember, if we had made the gift,
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: we've trapped at least $ 500, 000 give or take capital gains tax,
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: but our state estate tax is zero.
• 35:35
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: Think it's good. Not good. So if we die with $ 3. 5
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: million in the estate, minus two, we have $ 1.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: 5 million.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: 10% is $ 150, 000. It might be a little more than that.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: Call it $ 180, 000. Call it $ 190, 000. I don't care if
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: it's $ 200, 000. Yeah, let's do two for easy math. $ 200, 000
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: mass estate tax. But on the other side of the coin,
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: my $ 500, 000 piece of property.
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: That my children now inherited, not gifted, inherited, has a
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: basis of $ 1. 5 million. So if they decide to sell it,
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: their gain is zero. So we saved $ 500, 000 in capital
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: gains tax. And that's a home run.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: So you're at $ 200, 000 instead of $ 5, 000. No brainer.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So folks, get the guide.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: 866-848-5699.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: Or LegalExchangeShow.com and learn how not to make this gifting
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: tax problem in your world.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: If you have a question you'd like to ask Todd,
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: visit his website, LegalExchangeShow.com and click on the Ask Todd tab.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: Maybe I'll be able to read your question on the
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: air and hopefully his answer will stop you from becoming
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: one of his next real life stories. You've been listening
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: to Todd Lutzky, a partner with the law firm of
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Cushing and Dolan. I'm Susan Powers, a financial advisor with
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: the Armstrong Advisory Group. We'll be back with more after
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: this quick break on The Legal Exchange with Todd Lutzky.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Giving assets to your children during your lifetime may sound
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: like a simple way to pass along your wealth, but
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: the way you make the gift can have important tax consequences.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan's new guide, Making the Most of Gifting Assets,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: explains what you should consider before transferring property, investments, or
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: other appreciative assets to your family. If you give away
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: an asset too soon, your children could end up with
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: a larger tax bill when they eventually sell it. In
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: some cases, holding onto that asset and letting your children
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: inherit it later could reduce the capital gains tax they
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: have to pay. That's why gifting isn't just about what
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: you give. When and how you give it can make
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: a big difference. Get Cushing and Dolan's new guide, Making
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: the Most of Gifting Assets, by calling 866-848-5699.
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: That's 866-848-5699.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Or you can request the guide online by visiting LegalExchangeShow.com.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for and the views expressed are
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan and
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: or Armstrong Advisory may contact your offering legal or investment services.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan and Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: other and are not affiliated.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: Seeing some high volume out there on those roads today, folks.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Sound familiar?
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• 38:15
  Speaker 2: If your commute feels endless, it might be time to
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: ask a bigger question. Are you working because you want
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: to or because you think you have to? At the
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  Speaker 2: Armstrong Advisory Group, our financial advisors help individuals and families
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: build retirement income plans designed around their goals, savings, social security, investments,
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  Speaker 2: and overall financial picture. Retirement shouldn't be a guessing game.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: If you're concerned about what path you're on or have
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: questions about your financial plan, we may be able to help.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Visit armstrongadvisory.com and schedule a no-obligation meeting. The Armstrong Advisory Group.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: We answer only to you. Schedule your meeting today at armstrongadvisory.com.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: That's armstrongadvisory.com.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group, a
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: registered investment advisor. Nothing in the ad or in any
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Armstrong guide is specific financial, legal, or tax advice. Consult
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: your own financial, tax, and estate planning advisors before making
• 39:05
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• 39:08
  Speaker 1: advisory services.
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: Our nation's veterans answered the call to serve. Today, the
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: Disabled American Veterans Department of Massachusetts is there to support
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: our veterans through benefits assistance, transportation services, advocacy, and community outreach.
• 39:25
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• 39:32
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• 39:36
  Speaker 4: at davma.org.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Giving assets to your children can be part of an
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: estate plan, but giving them away directly can create problems
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: you may not expect. Cushing and Dolan's new guide, Making
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: the Most of Gifting Assets, explains what to consider before
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: you transfer assets to your family. Once you give an
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: asset directly to someone else, it's no longer yours. You
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: may lose control over it. And if your child runs
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: into financial trouble or goes through a divorce, that asset
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: could be at risk. This new guide suggests ways to
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: pass along assets while keeping them better protected. So before
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: you give away property, investments, or other assets, make sure
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: you understand your options. Get Cushing and Dolan's new guide,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Making the Most of Gifting Assets, by calling 866-848-5699. That's 866-848-5699.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Or you can request the guide online by visiting LegalExchangeShow.com.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for and the views expressed are
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan and
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: or Armstrong Advisory may contact you offering legal or investment services.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan and Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: other and are not affiliated. You're tuned to The Legal
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Exchange with Todd Lutzke. If you or a loved one
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: needs a nursing home stay, call Todd right now at
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: 866-848-5699 and let him make sure your assets are protected.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: That's 866-848-5699 or visit him online at LegalExchangeShow.com.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Welcome back into The Legal Exchange with Todd Lutzke. I'm
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Susan Powers, a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: and I'm joined, of course, by Todd Lutzke, a partner
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: with the law firm of Cushing & Dolan with a
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: master's in taxation. So, Todd, I'm going to give you
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: my own real-life story for a client couple that I
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: met with this week.
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: They are in their early to mid-60s, currently worth around
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: $ 12 million, of which $ 10 million Ish is liquid in
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: brokerage accounts and the rest is the primary residence and
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: a business.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: Of that brokerage account, if I could interrupt, is a
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: lot of it an IRA, a good chunk of it
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: an IRA?
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: No, there's actually, there's probably seven or eight million non-IRA assets.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: Okay, but still, let's call it three million. Let's call
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: it three million IRA money.
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Two to three in IRA money, yes.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: So that would make it seven. And you'll see why
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: that makes a difference. So go ahead.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: So they did some basic revocable trust planning probably 10-plus
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: years ago. They have two separate revocable trusts, one for
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: a husband, one for a wife. Their children were much
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: younger then, and now they're married. They have grandkiddos, and
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: they would like to divorce proof. They want to know,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: given their current wealth, if there's anything that they could
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: do to reduce their estate taxes.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: Going forward.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Going forward, yes. And then— I'll have a follow-up question
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: for you about gifting as well, because they want to
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: transfer some of their wealth, but not necessarily put it
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: in the kids' hands.
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: Sure. So I think what you get here is the
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: first problem I have is the too revocable trust. I
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: probably wouldn't have, if I was meeting them for the
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: first time with a $ 12 million estate in their 60s,
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: I would probably say, you know, we can shelter $ 30
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: million currently. I know that law is going to change
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: over time, but we'll monitor it for you. So I'm
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: not worried about that. For federal. For federal. Yeah, state,
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: we can only shelter four. But, you know, with a
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: two revocable trust, I can only cram down shelter. I
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: use the word cram down from estate taxes half as
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: much on the first death.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: Remember, divide by two versus a joint trust where I
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: can cram down everything that's in the joint trust on
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: the first death. So especially if there's $ 3 million in
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: an IRA, that can't be in anybody's trust on the
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: first death. So that reduces the amount I have to
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: divide by two for the two trusts.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: I'd rather have the full, so 12 minus three is nine.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: I'd rather have the full 9 million in one trust
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: to cram down rather than, you know, three and a
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: half or whatever, you know, four and a half each.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Because you don't know who's going to die first.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: And with a joint trust, it doesn't matter. Not only
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: is it better to cram down more on the first death,
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: but what people lose sight of is it's all about
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: the basis. And capital gains tax, right? I can get
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: a full step up in basis on the first death
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: on all 9 million.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: And then there's some planning, which I won't get into now,
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: that actually we can talk about how you can get
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: a second step up in basis when the survivor dies.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: I enjoy that.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: So the joint trust is very important because while we
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: all focus on death taxes, we at Cushing and Dolan
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: focus not on death taxes alone, but on income taxes.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: And that's where the step up in basis comes. So
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: that's my first comment and how to change their document.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: I probably wouldn't make any gifts right away, but I
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: do have a lot more I want to add to this.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: So let me just get back to this because folks,
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: I want to just mention the making the most of
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: gifting assets idea, right? So in this case, this is
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: all this what I'm talking about is estate planning. But
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: you know what, maybe this family wants to make gifts
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: during their life. How do we do it? What's the
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: smart play? Do I want to put it in kids names?
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: Do I want to set up a gifting trust? Do
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: I want to gift just for children? Or do I
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: want to gift so that I can still enjoy it?
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: How do I do that? What assets do I gift?
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: You know, do I gift away rental property? Do I
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: Put names on rental property. Do I own assets jointly? Folks,
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: so much to learn about gifting and how it fits
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: into your estate plan. Get this guide, Making the Most
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: of Gifting Assets, 866-848-5699 or LegalExchangeShow.com. Again, 866-848-5699 or LegalExchangeShow.com.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: And you can always go to Cushing and Dolan PC,
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: our Instagram page, for more information.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: So they also have four grandchildren. Little itty bitty boos.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: So they would want to do something for them as well.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: So what's the best path for them? Let's make them
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: pay no taxes. Can you do that?
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always my goal. I don't know how many
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: times we always achieve it. So here's what I would do.
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: $ 12 million, we don't need to... rush out and make
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: big gifts today, tomorrow, the next day.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Like to remove them from their estate.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: We can shelter $ 30 million with the joint trust. No
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: trouble there. So I'm not overly worried about gifting. I
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: know for Massachusetts, there's a problem. So if we can
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: keep our estate from growing in the future as much
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: in the estate, makes gifting a good idea. And of course,
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: every time we can lower our estate or prevent it
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: from growing more helps with Massachusetts estate taxes. So there's
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: two good reasons to be thinking about lifetime giving, but
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: not immediate aggressive giving. All right. What do I mean
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: by that? Well, I got these youngsters.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: But you know what? I don't, I still love my children.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Not as much as the grandchildren. I get it. But,
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: but you know, the kids. So I would probably set
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: up a gifting trust for them.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: How would that work?
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: And it might be a gifting trust that includes both
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: their children and their grandchildren.
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: So if I had two kids and six grandkids, I
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: will have two separate buckets, one for one kid and
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: their kids and one for the other kid and their kids.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: So I've got these two separate chairs set up inside
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: this gifting trust. And again, some people like to keep
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: things separate and they might set up a gifting trust
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: for one kid. And a gifting trust for another. A
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: lot of my wealthier clients do that. They don't want
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: the kids intermixing at all.
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: And that's okay. I totally agree with that. So we
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: set up this gifting trust for a couple of reasons. One,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: grandkids can't own anything. So we're certainly not going to
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: be giving it to them. And our kids, yeah, there's
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: no reason for them to own it. It just causes problems.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: It subjects it to their divorces, their creditors, it's included
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: in their estate. I don't want any of that. But
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: if I slowly set up a gifting trust and bleed
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: in there, let's just call it the 19,000 that we're
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: allowed to give away each year for free. No filing,
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: no gift tax, no nothing. Well, wow. If I've got
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: two kids and six grandkids.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: 19,000 times... Close to 160 grand a year.
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: Times two.
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: Because husband and wife both could gift.
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: So, you know, you've got six, seven, eight times two,
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: 16 times 19.
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Wow. So.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: We could move a lot of money gift tax free.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: And we can pick and choose what we move. Like
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: probably in this case, I'd want to be given away
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: the cash. The high basis assets as they comes available.
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: That way I'm not disrupting my financial plan. And this
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: will build outside the estate, estate tax free, growing estate
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: tax free. And then when you need it, you say, oh,
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: now grandkids going to prep school or college or, you know,
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: we need a down payment. They can make Dole the
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: money out of there if they want to.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: So I see why you have separate shares then for
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: each family because they'll have different needs throughout life.
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: Different needs, different college expenses, different wants. And then you'll
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: have the choice. Oh, yeah, that money's already outside my estate.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: It's sitting and growing. But you know what? I can
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: gift from my estate if I want to too. Right, right.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: maybe when that college comes around and I have the
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: money in my estate, yeah, it's nice that it's there,
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: but I can just write the check right for my
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: estate and pay the tuition or whatever I want. So
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: now you've got the best of both worlds as to
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: where you want to make a gift and And you
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: still have assets growing outside your estate. And for the kids,
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: it could be set up so that it won't be
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: included in their estate for estate tax purposes when they die.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: So the two trusts they currently have will go away.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: They would end up with one joint revocable trust.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: Simpler.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Would that incorporate the divorce proofing and purchasing taxes for
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: them as well?
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: Great final point. In their current trust, they don't have
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: that language in there. So I would add the generation
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: skipping tax benefit growth And the divorce proof language into
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: this joint revocable trust and also the gifting trust. Folks, gifting,
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: you hear it over and over. Sounds simple. It's not.
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: Learn how gifting fits into your estate plan and how
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: best to do it or not do it. 866-848-5699 or LegalExchangeShow.com. Again,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: making the most of gifting assets. 866- 848-5699, or go
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: to our website, LegalExchangeShow.com, and you can download it right there.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Todd Lutzke from the law firm of Cushing and Dolan,
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: thank you so much.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: Always a pleasure.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: I'm Susan Powers, a financial advisor with the Armstrong Advisory Group.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us today. We'll be back again
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: next week on The Legal Exchange with Todd Lutzke.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: Giving assets to your children during your lifetime may sound
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: like a simple way to pass along your wealth, but
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: the way you make the gift can have important tax consequences.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan's new guide, Making the Most of Gifting Assets,
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: explains what you should consider before transferring property, investments, or
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: other appreciative assets to your family. If you give away
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: an asset too soon, your children could end up with
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: a larger tax bill when they eventually sell it. In
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: some cases, holding onto that asset and letting your children
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: inherit it later could reduce the capital gains tax they
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: have to pay. That's why gifting isn't just about what
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: you give. When and how you give it can make
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: a big difference. Get Cushing and Dolan's new guide, Making
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: the Most of Gifting Assets, by calling 866-848-5699.
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: That's 866-848-5699.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: Or you can request the guide online by visiting LegalExchangeShow.com.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for and the views expressed are
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing and Dolan and
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: or Armstrong Advisory may contact your offering legal or investment services.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: Cushing and Dolan and Armstrong Advisory do not endorse each
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: other and are not affiliated.
• 52:00
  Speaker 5: Your life changes over time, and the amount you keep
• 52:02
  Speaker 5: in your emergency fund may need to change with it.
• 52:05
  Speaker 5: This is Mike Armstrong from the Armstrong Advisory Group. Our
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  Speaker 5: new guide, Building and Sizing Your Emergency Fund, can help
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  Speaker 5: you take a fresh look at the money you've set
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  Speaker 5: growing family, or a sudden change in your income can
• 52:19
  Speaker 5: all affect how much you need in reserve. The guide
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  Speaker 5: can help you review your essential monthly expenses, set a
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  Speaker 5: target for your emergency savings, and decide where that money
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• 52:31
  Speaker 5: Get your free copy of Building and Sizing Your Emergency
• 52:34
  Speaker 5: Fund by calling the Armstrong Advisory Group at 800-393-4001. That's 800-393-4001,
• 52:37
  Speaker 5: or you can request the guide online at armstrongadvisory.com.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: The proceeding was paid for by Armstrong Advisory Group, a
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: registered investment advisor. Nothing in the ad or in any
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Armstrong guide is specific financial, legal or tax advice. Consult
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: your own financial, tax and estate planning advisors before making
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: any investment decisions. Armstrong may contact you to offer investment
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: advisory services. Giving assets directly to your children may create
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: problems you didn't expect. Cushing and Dolan's new guide, Making
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: the Most of Gifting Assets, explains how giving away property
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: or investments could mean losing control of those assets. Learn
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: about your options before you give assets away. Call 866-848-5699
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: or visit LegalExchangeShow.com. The proceeding was paid for and the
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: views expressed are solely those of Cushing and Dolan. Cushing
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: and Dolan and or Armstrong Advisory may contact you offering
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: legal or investment services. Cushing and Dolan and Armstrong Advisory
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: do not endorse each other and are not affiliated.
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: For many Massachusetts veterans, getting to a medical appointment isn't
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: always easy. That's why the Disabled American Veterans Department of
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  Speaker 4: Massachusetts provides free transportation to VA medical appointments through its
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  Speaker 4: by volunteering or making a donation. Learn more at DAVMA.org.
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: That's DAVMA.org.