Latest / 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project / Julián Nunez: Whose Version Becomes the Story? — Representation, Power & Storytelling
Transcript
- Paige Williams: Welcome to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project. I'm Paige Williams. Come along with me as I build the emerging field of narrative intelligence by learning from 100 thinkers, creators, artists, people whose lives have been shaped by profound change. Together, we're exploring a question at the center of how we become who we are. And that question is: how malleable are the stories that we live by and what does it take to change one? Across these conversations, we're examining the stories we inherit, the stories that become identity. and the human capacities that it takes to change one. What I learned through this series is helping shape the field of narrative intelligence and the foundational book that I'm writing about it. This is 100 Stories. today I am speaking with Julian Nunez a filmmaker from Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I invited Julian to 100 Stories because he was actually an award-winning filmmaker several times on our platform, Oddpop. And his point of view and his storytelling and the quality of his storytelling was so awesome and unique. And I knew he would have a lot to say about identity and storytelling and the power of story and who gets the power to tell a story. So Julian, thank you for joining me today. Julian: Absolutely, Paige. Happy to be here Paige Williams: do you have a moment in your life where you were just coasting and you were living and then you realized that you were seeing it totally different than what the truth was? And you're like, that's what's actually going on here. Julian: Yeah, I I think, you know Yeah, Paige Williams: It's like the twist of a narrative, right? Julian: i exactly. It's it's like it's a coming of age story, you know. I think that time for me was, you know, if like it is for a lot of people, fresh out of college, you know what you mean, like now where's my life gonna go from here? You know, I could jump into the workforce and and put in my forty my forty years and and then, you know Check that box off, retire and and then what's you know, then that was life. You know, but then but then it then I thought to myself, like No, that doesn't sound like what I wanna do. That sounds, you know, not that there's anything wrong with with that, but it's to me sounded awfully boring. You know, Paige Williams: Yeah. Julian: and it it's like that that's that sounds almost soul draining. I wanna I wanna do something more and and I wanna wanna tell stories. I wanna you know, at that at that time in my life I was, you know, making music and that was kind of my start into into film because it was I was playing music with my brother and my cousin and we're touring all around the country. country in in a in a country band, you know what I mean? And just playing with these huge artists, you know, and seeing you know the crowd out there and and and my role was, you know, was kinda producing for for the band and and and shooting music videos and and I think You know, at that point I was like, you know, I was we're doing music, we're doing music, but really it transformed from from music to telling film by by creating like the music videos and we were telling three minute stories in these music videos and I I got to direct it, I got to do the cinematography. And I think that is like that moment where I was like I saw how like people were engaged with the music videos and they were seeing like the stories that we're telling through there. and it's kind of put me on my path to like, wait, I I could write stories and I could film you know, and it won't be part of the music video, it'll be an actual narrative and and that's where I saw Paige Williams: Yeah, right. Julian: the the impact and and then that's when I knew I was like, okay, I'm gonna start making movies. Yeah. Paige Williams: And then and then when you were thinking that, how did you decide what movies to make? what stories Julian: Yeah. Paige Williams: are you drawn to? What stories do you tell and why? Julian: where that came from is graduating college and in film school, all my friends were were moving out of New Mexico. You know, they were going to New York, they're going to LA, you know, Vegas, and just like these film capitals of the world and and I was like, Well, that sounds pretty awful, guys. It's like I love New Mexico. I I love home and and people feel like man, you're never gonna gonna make it at home or if whatever you do, it's just a local thing. And to me it like that's that's kind of a you know, that's kind of a a messed up perspective. I I love my home and where I'm from and I'm very proud of the history, and I think it's such a diverse culture and and and the stories here. If you just look around like New Mexico, like the history, the rich history that is here, and I look around and I was like, this is like the This is like the narratives I wanna tell. Like there's just so much culture here, you know, from being down south and and kind of the border thing, the immigration thing, or or I look, you know, like an hour from my house, like Billy the kid is, you know, buried there and and he has a story to tell that it's connected to kind of my you know, my sphere of Mexican American history. You know, like people didn't know like Billy spoke like perfect Spanish and had this wonderful love affair with this young woman who was was Mexican and it was just like, you know, I wanna tell these different perspectives and so I could tell a sci-fi cause, you know, Roswell's right down the street and and you know there's aliens in there or Paige Williams: Yeah. Julian: immigration and or or cowboys or or just you know, just just so much to do. So I look around me and I look look look at history and those are the stories I wanna tell of about my home here in New Mexico. Paige Williams: Yeah, what do you think Hollywood or or general movies get wrong about immigration stories, Billy the Kid stories, like anything you're interested in telling, like how are you telling it differently? Julian: Yeah, well first of all the Spanish is all wrong. You know what I mean? That said that's I guess, you know, when they do movies and then the Spanish is just like awful. You know, it's like, okay, that's that's that's one thing. Or are like Billy the Kid, you know, I've never heard of in you know, any of his films taught Spanish, you know what I mean? Like the the big ones, like young guns and all these things, you know. And then even though New Mexico was the backdrop of it all, it's it w the the politics and the things that were happening there barely I feel got it mentioned and and why, you know, why, you know, the significant things that happened in the backdrop of New Mexico barely get the mention and and we're more focused on on these like characters and and when there was like whole world behind these characters and other things happening. Like so one of the most recent stories that I'm telling is is the subtext of all of that and and what happened between all the political events and and how it all came to fruition and why it why it came into fruition. Or or like we did what what we did for you guys, Oddpop da down south, you know what I mean, and and Canela just telling that immigration story. Like it just through a more modern lens and and a perspective from someone my age telling Paige Williams: Right. Julian: a a story from something like immigration has been not it's an original idea, but it's, you know, just from a different point of view, from my point of view, really. Paige Williams: Right. Yeah, that's right. is have you ever and I know that you write most of your scripts, right? Or co write. So have you ever like written a script, made it, and then realize, no, I I didn't even understand the story I was writing through the art of filmmaking? Julian: those onset decisions we gotta make, you know, with the director. If I'm not directing like or or the director interprets my writing a certain way and I'm like, wait, that's not what I was thinking, but I could see where you get that from. so that's definitely that's definitely it's happened before. because you the way like you know they we have different upbringings just people we all you know come up differently and and the way I perceive something is is not how they did it. And I think that's kind of the magic of it is is you know the interpretation of it. And I and that's that's what storytelling is all about. People are are gonna interpret it their own way based on on their own Yeah. Paige Williams: Yeah, that's exactly what narrative intelligence is discovering. and that's why I love like talking to filmmakers about it and writers, because you can have one line and three people hear it and they're each going to interpret that line in a different way. And then Julian: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: if you put it into movie making, you have the writer, you have the director, you have the cinematographer, and the actor. And they're all interpreting that line in a different way. Julian: Yeah. And the actor. Yeah. Paige Williams: And it's like, well, which line is truth? Which interpretation is truth? So fascinating to me. Julian: very and then and yeah, and it's like no one's really right, but it's like a collaboration and that's that's what I love about about filmmaking is you know, we talk about it and then we shoot it and and then it comes into something like just beautiful and it's like bigger than I expected than I wrote when I wrote it. So that's that's what makes it fun. Paige Williams: Totally. I I was the last film I made I was someone said, you know, filmmaking is ninety percent planning and then you rely on that ten percent magic Julian: Yeah, yeah, no no doubt. And and that ten percent is the most stressful part of it too. Just like pull it out your hair like words the magic. Paige Williams: I know. It's like, come on. But it always happens. It always happens. We we put a creative dream out and it happens. It shows up. Magic shows up. Julian: indeed. And and that's you know, I love that feeling being on set, you know, and and you know when I get my team, you know, 'cause I'm producer, you know, writer, so the the day is like I think the least stressful day for me. for me anyway, because I'm on set, I everything's taken care of, everyone's doing their job and and I just get to like hang back and watch the magic happen. And I'll I'll talk to the director a few times. But but ultimately like I got everyone here. I put this awesome, amazing team together. Then I could just sit back and then and then just look. And that's just one of the greatest feelings for me. Just taking that in. Paige Williams: Yeah. What's the dream project? Julian: man, I have a whole pitch deck with like twelve of them, you know? Paige Williams: I know, but what's the one like you wanna like, I'm gonna make this before I die? Julian: Yeah, no, yeah, before I die, I hope sooner than that. Paige Williams: Ha ha Julian: 'cause you know I I and I feel like that is like every project and like right now my the project that is like my Western that I'm working on. I'm just like super stoked with it. It's going through festivals right now. you know, in October it's going to Spain, and the Almyra Film Festival, Billy Kidd Festival. Paige Williams: So it's a short that you want to make into a feature or series or? Julian: Y yes, feature series. I have, you know, the ninety minute script. and it's again just a story about, you know, people in New Mexico, Billy the Kid, and and he's actually a side character. The main character, her name is Paulita Maxwell. She's kind of this young heiress and her father at the time was the largest landowner in the United States. He owned one point seven million acres of of land in in the New Mexico territories back in the eighteen hundreds. And you know, and she She has to kind of, you know, the responsibility falls on her to be a steward of all this land. Her father dies, her brother's sick, and and she meets Billy and he kind of instills the outlaw spirit of of the Wild West into her. And and she learns how to take care of herself and and her family and defends, you know, the family legacy through what Billy teaches her. He's just kind of a side character in it. But yeah, no, I have that story, and it that's like my one right now. Like I've I've done the sci-fi, I've done the horror, and I just like I'm in my west. era right now. So I Paige Williams: Ha ha ha. Julian: I wanna I wanna, you know, I just love the horses. I love, you know, all the costumes and we did all that. We shot what, nine minutes out of a out of a ninety minute script. So just get a little taste of it before I reproduce the whole Paige Williams: Yeah. Julian: one. Paige Williams: my god, I'd love to see it. That's awesome. Julian: Absolutely. I'll send you the link, of course. I've Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Julian: I have to you know, Montana's that's where you're kinda where you hail from, so I Paige Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Julian: know that's kind of the same little you know, themes that we play with there here in New Mexico. Paige Williams: When you're telling someone else a story, like in this case, like how do you decide what's yours to tell and what's theirs to keep? Julian: I think that question is perfect for this project because in doing the research for this film, I actually reached out to the family of of the woman that I'm telling this story about. And you know, because these are real people. that I'm telling these stories about and and I'm I'm reading dime novels, you know, I'm reading, you know, blogs online and old Western magazines and and I'm like just taking all the bits and pieces and and I have this amazing narrative in my head. And and and then I actually talk to, you know, the family and they're like, my God, we absolutely hate that. She's like, that's not who she was at all. but but we love that you're telling the story. and but you know they're like this is this thing has like plagued our family on these rumors have plagued our family, you know, since you know since the 1800s and like Billy the kid and her were were were close and and but it's kind of just kind of our reputation but but we love what you're doing and tell the story and I'm like okay okay and she but then I was like well I was like well let's do this how about we sit down and you tell me the real story and and and and I was like she's like yeah absolutely let's do it's like I was like I'll make a documentary about the real story and and you tell me what what what you think and and what your family knows and she's like yeah and she started pulling out like all the Photo albums that go back all the way to the 1800s. I'm like, I'm really getting access to all like this historical stuff. And they were all about it. And you know, after I told them the story, they're Yeah, you know, we love the story. It's it's a narrative. We understand that it's an interpretation. And and but going back to your question, is like you know, as as a storyteller, we we take the little bits of truth and and history and then we make it into an entertain entertaining story while still, you know, being able to evoke feelings from people and and stay a little true to, you know, to the historical background of it. 'Cause like honestly, who really knows what was going on back then? We don't know. I think, you know, it could i i it could have been or it couldn't have been. And that's just Paige Williams: Right. Julian: how how I feel about it and and I'll interpret it my way and and and someone might interpret it another way, just like we were talking about earlier. Paige Williams: But you did adapt the story in the script based on what you learned from the family. Julian: Absolutely. That was, you know, I and I that's what I I wanted to talk to them first and and I had the script and I invited her to sit in on one of our readings with the actors just so that they could sit through the story and hear it all. And it was funny just what scene th their faces reacting to certain scenes like 'cause it was a zoom on Zoom and they're like Well you know, just and the reactions and and then then you could see they get shocked and so it was just it was just I think it was just fun and it just like inspired me more to like, okay. It's if it's making them feel this way and they're actually related to the person and know the history and that's their great great aunt or whatever, like it just it just kind of inspired me more. And like I said, at the end of the day they they they kinda knew what I was doing and and and they gave me their blessing and I'm just so happy to be working with them and actually have them involved instead of just going and making the story without even talking to them about it. I just felt like like you said, it was important to to get their kind of input on it. Paige Williams: Yeah. So you make documentary and then you do marketing videos and marketing products and then you also make narrative films and each one has a different lens and a different ability to tell a story. But what is the similarity in the storytelling from those three different mediums? Or is Julian: Mm. Paige Williams: there any? Julian: I don't think there's I don't think they're that different to be honest. you know it's weaving a a narrative, whether it's a documentary, whether it's a a narrative and a short is just a condensed version of of that. I I think it's it's just kind of connecting the dots and and and building building like a little breadcoms for people to follow and and by building the breadcombs you hope that, you know, they they connect with it and then and then and then then you flip it o completely around on them using either a piece of history or a line or just an an image and you just flip it around and and and then they're like, Whoa, like you just try to pull out an impact out of them and and I think that's Yeah, I think that's just like I I think they're all connected and it's just the medium of of film and I think moving pictures just just really allows you to tell a story and try to evoke feeling and whether again, whether it's a narrative or a documentary or a short, it's like a I think it's just it's just like a a a visual tool and you know just being able to make someone feel by seeing something, I think is super powerful. Paige Williams: Yeah, I love that flip it around. It's like, I was thinking this and then ch something shifts. And then I see something new. Julian: Yeah, exactly. And you see something new or hear a piece of information, just you know, just gotta give the twist, you know? People are so you know, just way technology has evolved is has changed filmmaking, I I think. Paige Williams: Yes. Julian: a and being you know, a sh you know, being able to produce short films, I think kinda gave me an edge already. And all short filmmakers kinda give you an edge because people's attention spans, you gotta be able to capture right away. You know what I mean? And and and if you just see kind of the shift in the industry from the streamers and networks, everyone's is they they want the shorts, you know, and they want vertical shorts. That's what the industry's calling for right now. And and a lot of filmmakers are resistant to it. for sure, because that's not how we learn how to tell stories in that format or in that time frame. but I think as the industry involves we we got I think we got to, you know, and still be true to ourselves. So me as a marketer, I go, Okay, let's let's make these shorts. but then there's gonna be a whole project attached to that. If someone wants more, then then there's then there will be more, you know. Paige Williams: Right. So you're able to stay flexible enough to say, okay, if the market's calling for vertical storytelling, that's fine, we'll do that. But it it's attached to and here's your horizontal narrative. Julian: Exactly. Let's show let's show them forty five seconds of you know, of a short and and you know, if they enjoy it then and they really are are a fan and we and we invoke the feeling that made want that more, then I think people will go. They'll find the ninety minute feature. Paige Williams: right. That's right. Have you ever told someone's story, either fiction or nonfiction, and then seen them change as a result of them telling their story or having their film or story out in the world? Julian: telling someone's story, like I think this the Western is like the most actually about someone, you know, a a real person, who who lived and breathed. And I think this is the story. All my other stories for sure, they had characters on the but they were based on an idea, on a theme, and not really an individual person. but I think you know, just going back to the immigration one, like I think w when I told that story and and then just looking at the news and seeing kind of similar characters now in the news talking about what they're going through and and a few years ago I made a story about that not that person exactly, but that that character. you know, and maybe you you were on to something, Julian. Your your research w wasn't just this person in your imagination that's actually a a character in in real life, you know, and and Paige Williams: Yeah. Julian: and I think that that that I don't know if it changed, they changed or I changed, but I think like the world just like my film and reality just connected. And and then yeah, that was like pretty impactful 'cause you're just there watching the news on TV or or Doom Scrolling on YouTube and all of a sudden like you have like a moment where it's like, shit, like excuse me. Like, God, this is s something that I intended, but when it actually happens in front of you then it just feels more impactful. Paige Williams: That certainly happened, didn't it? Mm. Julian: For sure, yeah. Which is Paige Williams: It's crazy how there will be so many stories that are made written before something happens and then current events catch up and it happens. Julian: Indeed, and and it was like and it's like you know, it and it's always been there, like that topic it's always been there, but just it just jumped to the forefront again, you know, and it feels you know, like society is as a whole just completely focused on it, but then, you know, as everything in today's events like the next big thing happens. And Paige Williams: Yeah. Julian: then we're and then we're all focused on that. You know, and then and and then it goes by, but then it's like a wave. It it comes back. You know what I mean? Something else will happen and it's at the forefront of everyone's mind again. And you'll see the ticks and views go up. You know what I mean? and then I'm like, Yeah, damn it, we should have made two more episodes. Paige Williams: who has the power to tell a story? Especially as an independent filmmaker, like, and how do you think about that? Julian: That's a good one because I think everyone has the power to tell a story, but Not everyone can do it correctly and not everyone is brave enough to do it. I wouldn't ever hold anyone back from sharing or telling a story. but as in all things in life, I think some some people can do it better, some people could do it worse, and some people do it with different intentions. And I think that you know, as corny as it sounds, being authentic to yourself, you know, is it just it 'cause you don't have to be real, 'cause like to tell tell a story. It it could be it could be just a a story about you know, like a like a a horror film, you know, about some crazy situation or some monster, you know, or but just being able to god just being able to having having the you know just the gusto to to take a chance and and put a piece of work about there, that's gonna put it on the line, but put put yourself on the line and people are gonna be like, Well he's you know he's telling he's telling that story. We didn't know first of all we didn't know we could do that and we didn't know that he can invoke such feelings in me or or God that was awful and why did he do that? but but but but like I I I just I just think anyone I think anyone should tell the story, especially today, because you know, it's this makes it super easy, you know. point, shoot, let's go. You don't you don't need you don't need even though it helps, you don't need all the tools that that y you used to before and I think the point of entry now is easier than it's ever been and and the platform is there, you know, there's anyone can post a video online these days that, you know, whether it's a short or or anything that could just explode overnight. and all of sudden you're you know, you have millions of people or thousands of people or hundreds or just of just ten or twenty people just watching your video that that didn't before and and you could connect people instantly, you know what I mean? And so I think that anyone can tell the story and just it's just you know everyone's gonna do it different. Paige Williams: Yeah. Julian: might not be not might be good, might not be right, might not be wrong, you know, just it's just these days it anyone could and sh should do it. Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah. How did you know you were made to tell stories like this? Julian: I have always been a little a little reader, a little lover of literature, you know, mythology and and just telling and being part of grand stories and even today like I you know I play Dungeons and Dragons with my friends ever every s every Sunday, you know? and I just love being in you in these magical worlds and I and I and I love being able to tell stories not only in that theme but in in different you know different perspectives. filmmaking gives you a chance to like you know I Would have loved to live in the Western times, you know? And I would have loved to been there in the wild west, you know, riding the horse next to a train. Like I would just have loved to been there. or you know, or some sci-fi stuff too. I just love being immersed into new worlds and and and I think that is like what really really got me like motivated and involved to wanna to wanna do this. Paige Williams: Yeah. When you hear the words narrative intelligence and you if you got to write the definition, what would you say it means to you? Julian: I and that's that's that's a tricky one because you know with with all the new technology and intelligence you go straight to the tech side of things. But for me it's like narrative intelligence feels like it it's knowing the power that a a story has and knowing how that could be used as a tool to to connect with people. Paige Williams: Love that. Julian: Yeah, just knowing the power kind of story. Paige Williams: Awesome. Julian, thanks for doing this interview. I enjoyed learning from you. Julian: Hey my god, thank you so much for having me Paige Williams: Before we close, here's what I'm taking from this conversation about narrative intelligence. Julian reminded me that a story is never just the thing that happened, it's also the interpretation we bring to what happened. He talked about writing a historical story and then meeting the family of the woman at the center of it, and discovering that their understanding of her life was different from his. Instead of treating his version as definitive, he let their perspective change his work. And that feels important. Because maybe narrative intelligence is partly the ability to recognize, this is my interpretation. It is not the only possible interpretation. Filmmaking makes that visible. A writer writes a line, a director reads it one way, an actor brings something else to it, an audience receives it through their own history. The story keeps changing as it moves from person to person to person. And then there's power. Julian said that today almost anyone can tell a story. The tools are cheaper, the barriers are lower, and a person can put something into the world almost instantly. But this conversation leaves me wondering if the power to tell a story is different from the power to make your version of the story the one that everyone else believes. Who gets heard? Who gets funded? Who gets distributed? Whose version becomes history? And whose remains invisible? Julian defined narrative intelligence as knowing the power a story has and knowing how that power can be used to connect with people. I think I'd add one more question to that. Can we become conscious enough of our own interpretation to know when we are telling a story and when we are mistaking our version of it for the truth? If this conversation gave you something to think about, subscribe to 100 Stories and tell me in the comments what idea stayed with you.