Latest / Inside Politics / Albanese ghosted by Trump at G7 summit

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Albanese ghosted by Trump at G7 summit · Inside Politics

0:01
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:04
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Friday, June 20th.
0:10
S1: This week, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese travelled to the G7
0:13
S1: summit in Calgary, Canada, with high hopes of scoring a
0:16
S1: sidelines meeting with US President Donald Trump. The PM wanted
0:21
S1: to discuss the Aukus pact, which the Trump administration has
0:24
S1: placed under review. And he also wanted to discuss the
0:27
S1: tariffs that the US government has put on Australian aluminium
0:30
S1: and iron ore, among other things. But events overtook and
0:34
S1: Trump left the summit to deal with the escalating conflict
0:36
S1: between Israel and Iran. Albanese did not get his meeting.
0:40
S1: He didn't even get a phone call cancelling the meeting.
0:44
S1: So what does this mean for our relationship with our
0:46
S1: supposed closest ally? Will Albanese be able to stalk Trump
0:50
S1: at the upcoming NATO summit instead? And was it really
0:53
S1: the loss of face that some critics said it was? Plus,
0:56
S1: we'll talk about attempts to reform the Liberal Party, both
0:58
S1: at the New South Wales and the federal level. Joining
1:02
S1: me to discuss all this, we have our federal political correspondent,
1:05
S1: Natassia Chrysanthos, and our climate and energy correspondent, Mark Foley. Welcome, guys. Hello.
1:10
S2: Hi, jacki.
1:15
S1: Mike and Taz. Israel and Iran continue to exchange missile
1:18
S1: fire in the Middle East. As we're recording, the situation
1:21
S1: is very volatile. On Tuesday, US President Donald Trump abruptly
1:25
S1: left the G7 summit in Canada to return to Washington
1:28
S1: and deal with the escalating crisis. This meant that he
1:31
S1: basically ghosted Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, who had hoped to
1:34
S1: catch up with him on the sidelines of the summit,
1:36
S1: to discuss the Aukus deal in particular and tariffs more generally.
1:40
S1: Tell us, where does that leave the Australian government and us,
1:43
S1: the Australian people on these important issues, aukus and tariffs?
1:47
S3: Yeah, well, for the Australian government and for Albanese in particular,
1:52
S3: there was a lot riding on this for him. The
1:55
S3: domestic political context, you know his kind of failure to
1:59
S3: get phone calls with Trump earlier in the year. That
2:02
S3: was a big attack line for the coalition throughout the
2:04
S3: election campaign. You know, they're kind of push or the
2:07
S3: expectation that Albanese would secure some exemption to Trump's tariffs
2:11
S3: for Australia. It was added to that and the fact
2:16
S3: that he hasn't spoken to the president since that tariff
2:19
S3: decision was made several months ago now doesn't look good
2:22
S3: for him in that domestic context. It also means that
2:25
S3: he hasn't gotten to have those conversations with Trump. Um,
2:28
S3: and then in the last week or so, you had
2:31
S3: the whole aukus issue.
2:32
S1: So, yeah, as in Aukus is now officially under review
2:35
S1: by the US administration.
2:36
S3: Yeah, yeah. Correct. The US has decided to review Aukus.
2:41
S3: The US sticking with Aukus is obviously what's in Australia's
2:44
S3: interest here. And the Australian government's interests more specifically. So
2:49
S3: not ideal that Albanese didn't get to have that meeting.
2:51
S3: We're now hearing him and his advisers talk about potentially, um,
2:56
S3: Albanese attending NATO next week and trying to get the
2:59
S3: meeting there, but I don't think it sounds like he's
3:01
S3: going to attend unless he can actually lock in that
3:04
S3: meeting with Trump. And given everything that's happened in the
3:08
S3: world and the fact that Trump did just walk out
3:09
S3: of the conference with all else going on the other
3:13
S3: day maybe makes that unlikely.
3:16
S1: Yeah, it just seems to me that even if you
3:17
S1: lock in a, you know, so-called lock in a meeting
3:19
S1: with Trump, there's no way that that lock in will
3:21
S1: be respected by the man himself.
3:23
S2: On that, I found it very interesting over the past
3:26
S2: couple of weeks, given what you say, how will he
3:30
S2: or won't Trump actually going to meet a world leader?
3:32
S2: That situation is that Albanese and his press office have
3:36
S2: really leant in to building up expectations that Albo would
3:42
S2: arrange a meeting with Donald Trump. He is going to
3:44
S2: meet him face to face. And this is in response to,
3:47
S2: I think, a bit, maybe a bit unfairly, but I'd
3:49
S2: class as some wet lettuce sort of criticism from the
3:52
S2: coalition about Albaneses so-called inability to secure a meeting with Trump.
3:58
S2: I just can't figure out why Albanese was so keen to, um,
4:02
S2: to declare that he.
4:04
S1: Telegraph that this meeting was definitely going to happen.
4:07
S2: Yeah, it's a false test because I think Australians know
4:10
S2: that Trump is very capricious. There's the threat of war
4:14
S2: erupting in the Middle East, and Trump is going to
4:16
S2: be called away at any moment.
4:18
S1: I'm interested in both of your takes on that, because
4:20
S1: in some quarters Trump was, you know, he was portrayed
4:22
S1: basically as blowing Albanese off, as ghosting him, standing him up.
4:26
S1: Is that fair? I mean, he obviously had a very
4:30
S1: good reason to lead the conference and to not honour
4:32
S1: this meeting. But at the same time, he didn't even
4:35
S1: make a phone call. I mean, this was our closest ally.
4:38
S1: What does that say about the respect that he has
4:39
S1: for Australia, but also the respect he has for Albanese
4:42
S1: as a man?
4:43
S3: I think, and our colleague James Massola, who's in Canada
4:46
S3: with Albanese this week, wrote something to this effect. He
4:51
S3: said it exposes Australia for for what it is at
4:54
S3: the end of the day, which is at best a
4:56
S3: middle power like Trump met other G7 leaders. I think
5:00
S3: he called the leader of Mexico when he left the
5:03
S3: summit early. But it does just show, I suppose, the
5:07
S3: reality of where we sit on the world stage.
5:11
S1: I just wonder if you would have done it to
5:13
S1: say Scott Morrison. I mean, it's an impossible, you know, counterfactual,
5:16
S1: but I'm just they don't seem to have any kind
5:19
S1: of personal relationship at all, and there doesn't seem to
5:21
S1: be any kind of respect. There's no it's just not
5:24
S1: simpatico between them.
5:25
S3: Well, and I think part of that is they have like,
5:27
S3: that lack of personal relationship is because they haven't had
5:29
S3: a face to face meeting like Trump came in earlier
5:32
S3: this year. Albanese has been re-elected, but even before that
5:36
S3: there was no face to face. They had the 1
5:38
S3: or 2 phone calls at the beginning of this year,
5:39
S3: and I've also read commentary. These face to face relationships,
5:42
S3: personal relationships are really important for Trump, which probably adds
5:45
S3: to the imperative of Albanese getting one sooner rather than later.
5:48
S1: He needs to get an invitation from from Greg Norman
5:50
S1: to for them to play golf together or something. Um,
5:53
S1: Albanese used to walk on the golf course at Marrickville,
5:57
S1: I think.
5:57
S2: Well, Jacqui, I think the point is long term. How
6:01
S2: how much is it in Albanese's interest to have that
6:04
S2: close personal tie to Donald Trump and receive his calls?
6:08
S2: When we've seen, you know, Trump is going to Trump,
6:11
S2: he is going to be, like I said, capricious. And
6:14
S2: he lashes out in public meetings with world leaders. He
6:19
S2: ditched Narendra modi and the prime minister of South Korea
6:23
S2: as well at the G7. So is there any advantage
6:27
S2: in terms of domestic politics, the optics of Albo looking
6:31
S2: like he has influence over the US, when that could
6:35
S2: all fall apart on a whim of Donald Trump? I
6:37
S2: think it's sort of a 50 over 50 call about
6:39
S2: how advantageous it could be for Australia to be close
6:42
S2: to Trump.
6:43
S1: Well, I agree. And when you think about the reality
6:45
S1: of a white House visit, if that were to happen,
6:47
S1: I mean, an invitation has to be extended first, which
6:50
S1: hasn't happened, but we've seen how humiliating and utterly globally
6:55
S1: degrading that experience can be. If you get on the
6:57
S1: wrong side of Donald Trump when you're in, you know,
6:59
S1: in front of the press, in the white House, and
7:01
S1: that the chilling effect of those press conferences with Zelensky.
7:06
S4: Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying
7:08
S4: to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going
7:11
S4: to feel.
7:11
S5: I'm not telling you.
7:12
S4: Because you're in no position to dictate that that's exactly
7:14
S4: what you're doing. You're in no position to dictate what
7:18
S4: we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good.
7:23
S1: I mean, the chilling effect of those public confrontations is enormous,
7:26
S1: isn't it? I mean, if you're Albanese, why would you
7:28
S1: walk into something or, you know, even the smallest risk
7:31
S1: of something like that happening?
7:32
S3: Yeah. And I think all the kind of survey, polling,
7:35
S3: research that we've seen on Australians attitude toward Trump, it's
7:39
S3: it's up there in terms of negativity in a global
7:43
S3: context like Australians at large don't like Trump. I don't
7:46
S3: think there's like Mike said, a lot in in it
7:48
S3: for Albanese Domestically to be buddy with Trump. I think
7:53
S3: people's expectations is for a productive relationship that's in the
7:56
S3: interests of Australians. And, um, you can probably do that
7:58
S3: in a couple of ways.
8:00
S1: Yeah. Okay. So the conflict in the Middle East, I mean,
8:02
S1: it's very uncertain what the outcome will be even as
8:05
S1: we sit here. We're recording on Thursday morning more sort of, um, domestically. Mike,
8:09
S1: what does this mean for oil prices? In recent times,
8:12
S1: we've been led to believe that the the RBA might
8:14
S1: continue to cut interest rates at the next few meetings.
8:18
S1: But oil prices, if they surge and that will possibly
8:21
S1: add to inflation and it will have flow on effects
8:23
S1: for the Australian economy. Talk to us about that.
8:26
S2: Sure. Well, it's obviously a massive question for the global
8:30
S2: economy at the moment, but I can give you some
8:33
S2: context on the what the oil price has done on
8:36
S2: the news of conflict in the Middle East and look,
8:39
S2: baby steps. But it's not catastrophic at the moment, Jackie.
8:43
S2: So at the moment the US are dollars per barrel
8:47
S2: of oil. It's 76 bucks for a barrel of oil.
8:51
S2: It's surged, but it has gone nowhere near the 2022 peak.
8:57
S2: That was after Russia invaded Ukraine and there was an
9:00
S2: embargo on the oil out of Russia. And global disruption there.
9:04
S2: And that was when in 2022, oil prices are connected
9:08
S2: to the global energy price. They drove up electricity prices
9:12
S2: in Australia, and that had a material effect on inflation
9:15
S2: and really helped fire the inflation dragon in Australia. And
9:19
S2: at the moment we're not headed towards that.
9:22
S1: Okay. In terms of other geopolitical issues that might affect
9:27
S1: the Australian economy. Where are we at with tariffs? I
9:30
S1: mean the US tariffs haven't yet been imposed. I think
9:32
S1: they're due to be imposed in July. Have they had
9:35
S1: a chilling effect on the Australian economy already. Are they
9:38
S1: likely to slow growth. What will they do.
9:40
S2: Well, Albanese was pretty upbeat on the question of tariffs.
9:45
S2: When you boil it right down, he was at the
9:46
S2: G7 and he said sort of quite cheekily to the
9:49
S2: global press pack there, that Australia is continuing to export
9:53
S2: more to the US, he said. And that's in the
9:56
S2: face of a 50% tariff about to hit Australian aluminium
10:01
S2: and steel. But it's three 3/5 of bugger all what
10:05
S2: Australia sends in terms of aluminium and steel to the US.
10:09
S2: In terms of the global picture, it's worth about $1
10:11
S2: billion a year. That's that's not a hell of a
10:14
S2: lot in terms of Australia's export balance. Our biggest export
10:18
S2: to the US beef is worth about $3 billion a year,
10:21
S2: and that's set to face a 10% tariff. And Albanese,
10:25
S2: when he was flagging that our exports continue to go up.
10:29
S2: The US has a big growing demand for beef.
10:32
S6: Australia continues to importantly continues to export to the United States.
10:40
S6: It's just that the purchasers of those goods and services
10:44
S6: are paying more for them. So there hasn't been a decline.
10:48
S2: Here's my favorite stat out of the the the whole
10:50
S2: turmoil is that that's going to affect about 6 billion burgers.
10:54
S2: That's how much Australia supplies of beef into the US.
10:57
S2: And that the.
10:58
S1: Lifeblood, the lifeblood of the of the Trump administration right there.
11:01
S2: Well, it'd cost Trump's consumers, his voters, an extra $600
11:05
S2: million in terms of the burger tariff. And it's not
11:08
S2: affecting the volume of Australian exports, and it doesn't look
11:11
S2: like it will.
11:12
S1: Okay. So the message at the moment is that it
11:14
S1: will hurt them more than it will hurt us.
11:16
S2: Mhm.
11:27
S1: I want to turn now just to developments closer to home.
11:29
S1: And let's talk about the opposition because they're a bit
11:32
S1: undercooked at the moment. We're not hearing a lot from them.
11:34
S1: The federal Liberal Party has decided to extend its federal
11:37
S1: takeover of the New South Wales Liberal Party. Now listeners
11:40
S1: may or may not remember this happened after the state division,
11:44
S1: the New South Wales State Division massively bungled nominations for
11:48
S1: candidates for the local elections in New South Wales last year,
11:51
S1: so they failed to nominate 144 candidates. They just didn't
11:55
S1: do the paperwork. Apparently. Um, tasks. Can you just refresh
11:58
S1: us on what happened after that in terms of the takeover?
12:01
S3: Yeah. So, um, Peter Dutton last year appointed three men
12:05
S3: as administrators to run that New South Wales division after
12:10
S3: the local government bungle and a period of dysfunction for
12:14
S3: that New South Wales division of the Liberal Party. Now
12:17
S3: two of them were from Victoria, which caused some consternation
12:21
S3: up in Sydney. And then you had this episode a
12:25
S3: couple of weeks ago in a post federal election context,
12:29
S3: where the liberals have kind of all been wiped out
12:33
S3: of major cities and suffered a bad defeat in New
12:35
S3: South Wales again, where one of the administrators, former Victorian
12:40
S3: Treasurer Alan Stockdale, joked that, you know, in this conversation
12:44
S3: about women in the Liberal Party that women were now
12:47
S3: sufficiently assertive, um, that we might even need to consider
12:52
S3: reverse quotas for men. And that did not go down well.
12:56
S1: No, the comments were very quickly leaked, and there was
12:59
S1: some there was widespread outrage, particularly amongst the sufficiently assertive
13:02
S1: women of the Liberal Party South.
13:04
S3: Wales.
13:04
S1: Branch.
13:05
S3: Yeah. So you had a meeting this week then under
13:07
S3: Susan Lee's leadership, and they have appointed new administrators.
13:14
S1: For the New South Wales. Yeah. So Nick and its
13:16
S1: former former New South Wales premier Nick Greiner who's heading it.
13:19
S1: So um, that was decided at the federal executive meeting
13:22
S1: on Tuesday. Yep. Separately I want to talk about the
13:25
S1: federal review, which is a sort of bigger deal, I suppose.
13:29
S1: This always happens after every election loss, um, that a
13:33
S1: political party will sort of institute a review, but this
13:37
S1: one's going to be even broader in its scope, I
13:39
S1: think so. Liberal leader Sussan Ley and this week announced
13:42
S1: the people that she's going to appoint to conduct the
13:45
S1: review after their devastating loss in May. Who has she chosen?
13:49
S3: So, yes, like you said, Jack, that's the review that
13:51
S3: they do every election. Last time Jane Hume was the
13:56
S3: co authors, one of the co-authors of that review. This
14:00
S3: time it's no one in the parliament. It's Pru Goward
14:04
S3: who is a former New South Wales minister and former
14:08
S3: sex discrimination commissioner, and Nick Minchin, who is a former
14:12
S3: federal minister and a well-known conservative powerbroker in the party.
14:17
S3: And Pru Goward, I think, was aligned with the centre
14:19
S3: right when she was in Parliament.
14:20
S1: Yeah.
14:21
S3: So they'll be doing this? Uh, yeah. The kind of
14:25
S3: typical review which looks at the election campaign, the term
14:30
S3: in Parliament as well, but particularly around how the campaign operated.
14:36
S3: A big point of commentary since the election result has
14:40
S3: been how many recommendations from the last review weren't followed
14:45
S3: in the intervening three years?
14:48
S1: There's no point having a review if you don't, if
14:50
S1: you don't take up the recommendations.
14:51
S3: Yeah. And the other one, though, the special thing that
14:54
S3: the liberals have said they're going to do this time
14:56
S3: in the context of what was a particularly disastrous result,
14:58
S3: is do another big inquiry that will run alongside this review.
15:04
S3: But that is not specific to the election. That is
15:07
S3: more an inquiry into the Liberal Party, what it stands for,
15:10
S3: why it exists anymore.
15:11
S1: Yes, that's the policy work right there. So, Mike, I
15:14
S1: want to ask you about that, because the biggest thing
15:16
S1: on the table in terms of the fissures within the
15:19
S1: Liberal Party and within the coalition, is the commitment to
15:21
S1: net zero. And Sussan Ley has been very cautious in
15:25
S1: her language around this. We know that there are elements,
15:28
S1: particularly within the National Party, part of the coalition, who
15:31
S1: want to ditch net zero. What's the latest on that?
15:34
S1: What how is it sort of looking? Well.
15:36
S2: Jackie, you said it cautious is the word because that
15:40
S2: question of whether the coalition, the nationals themselves or the
15:45
S2: liberals on their own remain committed to the ambition to
15:49
S2: achieve net zero emissions by 2050. I mean, you can
15:52
S2: get caught up in hype, political hyperbole, but that really
15:55
S2: is a powder keg that could explode the coalition. It
15:58
S2: could cause a rift within the Liberal Party itself between
16:02
S2: moderate and right factions. There is a lot of soul
16:07
S2: searching going on within the Liberal Party about how, let's say,
16:11
S2: the political hardheads that have taken a lesson out of
16:15
S2: Peter Dutton's historic defeat where he, you know, the Labor
16:18
S2: Party won 17 seats and surfed to just a thumping
16:22
S2: majority against all expectations. They're saying we need to appeal
16:27
S2: to urban electorates. Azar said the coalition's been booted out
16:31
S2: of metropolitan Australia, by and large, and there's a pretty
16:37
S2: hefty Cohort in the Liberal Party room that sit to
16:41
S2: the right of politics that, I think it's fair to say,
16:45
S2: would be very happy to see a commitment to net
16:47
S2: zero go. They are just ideologically opposed to it. Now,
16:51
S2: within that, there's all sorts of really interesting policy levers around.
16:56
S2: Does the coalition, does the Liberal Party remain supportive of
16:59
S2: renewable energy? A lot in the party would like to
17:01
S2: just halt development of renewable energy and rely on coal
17:04
S2: and eventually nuclear power. So it really is boiling down
17:08
S2: to energy. The climate wars have shifted from being a
17:11
S2: national debate. I think it's fair to say that that
17:13
S2: national debate is settled, and voters are extremely happy to
17:18
S2: vote for ambitious climate action in the form of the
17:22
S2: Albanese government's renewable energy push. And the climate wars are
17:26
S2: now sort of reap what you sow. Tony Abbott kicked
17:29
S2: that off earlier in the in the 20 tens, fomenting
17:34
S2: big dissent against Kevin Rudd's ambitious moves to impose a
17:38
S2: carbon tax. And now that's become less of a national
17:41
S2: debate and an internal debate for the Liberal Party itself
17:44
S2: and the coalition more broadly. And there's nothing coming out
17:48
S2: of the party in answer to your question, because they're
17:50
S2: asking themselves those questions. They don't have answers.
17:53
S1: The other thing that, um, I mean, this is in
17:55
S1: the in the context of, you know, the sort of
17:58
S1: disastrous female vote that the coalition achieved at the last election,
18:02
S1: which has been on a downward trajectory for over a
18:05
S1: decade now. There is a question about whether or not
18:07
S1: they should institute a quota system which labor has, you know,
18:11
S1: did very successfully many decades ago and now has basically
18:15
S1: 50 over 50 representation in Parliament. Tas Nick mentioned made
18:19
S1: some comments about that this week. I mean, Nick Minchin
18:22
S1: is a sort of very much a conservative. He's ideologically opposed,
18:26
S1: you might say, to quotas, but he did seem sort
18:28
S1: of open to them, didn't he?
18:29
S3: Yeah. This is an interview with another publication called The Nightly. Um,
18:33
S3: he said, you know, quotas are an anathema if you're
18:37
S3: talking about merit. But our position among women is so
18:41
S3: bad that maybe we need to or we should revisit
18:44
S3: that conversation. I think that's interesting. I think that's telling.
18:47
S3: I think you've heard a lot of people in the
18:49
S3: last month or so say, well, we're desperate. We need
18:53
S3: to we do need to go back to the drawing
18:54
S3: board and see what we can do. Um, whether that
18:57
S3: actually leads to a recommendation like this review is being
19:01
S3: led by Minchin and by, uh, Pru Goward. Pru Goward
19:05
S3: as well has has not spoken in favour of quotas
19:09
S3: throughout her political career. She's always been pretty against quotas. Again,
19:13
S3: whether the the extremity of this situation leads people to
19:17
S3: change their views or leads her to change their views
19:19
S3: is yet to be seen. Like she hasn't said anything
19:22
S3: on it recently. Um, but I think it would be
19:24
S3: a pretty big step if the two of them did
19:27
S3: come to recommend quotas at the end of the day.
19:29
S3: Like again, Susan Lee has welcomed that conversation over the
19:32
S3: past several years. But even in the context of the
19:36
S3: defeat last month, it's not like she's come out swinging
19:38
S3: in favour of quotas. So it could be something that, again,
19:41
S3: is is kind of put on the table in the
19:44
S3: interests of saying, hey guys, we are looking at everything.
19:46
S3: We're not going to be close minded about this.
19:48
S1: Yeah, it's just amazing that there's sort of like this,
19:51
S1: this very, very rusted on sort of cultural.
19:53
S3: Yeah. I wonder if.
19:54
S1: It's.
19:54
S3: Too late. It feels too late. Like you're jumping on
19:57
S3: board with it in 2025. Like it took Labour, for example,
20:00
S3: two decades to get that result.
20:02
S1: It did, but they ratcheted it up. I mean, you know,
20:04
S1: there are probably ways you can do it because it
20:06
S1: doesn't seem to have evolved more naturally, does it? It's
20:09
S1: a really interesting I find that that particular issue really fascinating,
20:13
S1: and also just whether or not they're going to hang
20:15
S1: on to net zero.
20:16
S2: On both quotas and net zero and climate action, they're
20:20
S2: issues that the coalition is going to have to have
20:23
S2: an all in, all out brawl within itself before those
20:26
S2: positions are settled. And, you know, as you know well, Jacqui,
20:30
S2: it's not unusual to have those fights in politics, but
20:33
S2: it is in the last few years, and we saw
20:36
S2: Peter Dutton in the previous three years of federal parliament
20:39
S2: avoiding a fight among the coalition over policy issues at
20:42
S2: all costs. He went. I can't exaggerate how the extremes
20:47
S2: he went to on climate policy to keep the nationals happy.
20:50
S2: He announced just this globally ambitious nuclear policy that was
20:54
S2: completely economically unfeasible hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayers
20:58
S2: money being given to private companies to build plants, for example,
21:03
S2: completely antithesis to the market based policy of the liberals,
21:06
S2: just to keep the nationals happy. And it's now this
21:09
S2: gargantuan test for certainly whether she embraces that fight, you know,
21:14
S2: and risks angering the nationals or she goes into this
21:17
S2: shibboleth of quotas in um, as well. And he's willing
21:21
S2: to have the fight because that was just not on
21:24
S2: the table in the past three years.
21:26
S1: Yeah, I know, and I mean, the most interesting to
21:28
S1: me is whether or not she has the authority to
21:30
S1: to pull off that fight and to pull off whatever
21:33
S1: it is that she decides to do. We'll definitely revisit this.
21:36
S1: So we want to have you guys back on another time.
21:38
S1: Thanks for being so generous with your time. Thank you
21:40
S1: for being insufficiently assertive, woman.
21:43
S7: You're welcome.
21:43
S1: Thank you for being insufficiently assertive, man. Mike.
21:47
S2: Oh my pleasure.
21:52
S1: Today's episode was produced by Chee Wong with technical assistance
21:55
S1: from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and
21:59
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S1: you for listening.