Latest / What You Have Seen and Heard / Rev. Zach Rogers

Transcript

Rev. Zach Rogers · What You Have Seen and Heard

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, hello again.
0:01
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to What You Have Seen and Heard.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: It's a very unofficial podcast where I start interviewing people and talking
0:08
SPEAKER_00: to folks from around the Upper Midwest Conference of the Global Methodist Church.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: My name is Travis Stevick.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm a pastor in Marcus, Iowa, in Northwest Iowa.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just kind of doing this because I want to get to know some folks
0:19
SPEAKER_00: and hear stories about what God is doing.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, our guest for today is the Reverend Zach Rogers.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: And so welcome to this conversation, Zach.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Hey Travis, how are we doing this morning?
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Doing alright.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: Glad to have you.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: The first question I ask everybody,
0:37
SPEAKER_00: because I think it's important that we're all telling these stories and kind
0:40
SPEAKER_00: of getting to know each other,
0:41
SPEAKER_00: is how is it that you came to be a Christian in the first place?
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Or, if you've been a Christian for as long as you can remember,
0:47
SPEAKER_00: how did you kind of start taking your faith really seriously?
0:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess I would say I got a pretty boring testimony in the best way possible.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's really a testament to the church.
1:00
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in the church and just watching other people and mentors and how living
1:08
SPEAKER_01: a Christian life has really affected them.
1:11
SPEAKER_01: And so I just grew up in the church.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: As a middle school kid,
1:16
SPEAKER_01: my dad felt the call to ministry,
1:19
SPEAKER_01: specifically youth ministry at the time,
1:21
SPEAKER_01: and we ended up moving up here to Iowa, and it was different, right?
1:29
SPEAKER_01: I talked like a hick.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I still do.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in the Tulsa,
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Oklahoma area,
1:35
SPEAKER_01: and it was great,
1:36
SPEAKER_01: and it was wildly different culturally up here than it was down there.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: For the longest time,
1:44
SPEAKER_01: I was pretty reclusive, hang out with my dad and my siblings, and that was great.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: And then one day dad says, hey, I'm tired of hanging out with you.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: You got to go make some friends.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: So he booted me out of the house to go make some friends.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: But just with that,
2:04
SPEAKER_01: being a pastor's kid, I didn't really have an opportunity to not be at the church.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: I was there constantly if the doors were open.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Number one, my dad was my best friend.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: I liked hanging out with him the most.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: So I always wanted to be with him.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: But number two, if I did want to do something else, he didn't let me do that.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, so I spent a lot of time in the church.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: We went on mission trips all the time in the summers and just seeing God move
2:36
SPEAKER_01: in those different mission trips was pretty amazing and really solidified my faith.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't know that I have an exact date where I decided that I was going to be
2:49
SPEAKER_01: a Christian.
2:50
SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of been born and bred into me.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: And it took a long time for me to realize God's call on my life.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: But here we are.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Well,
3:01
SPEAKER_00: I think it's really interesting because when we celebrate baptisms in the church,
3:05
SPEAKER_00: there's usually some kind of congregational vow that we're going to surround,
3:09
SPEAKER_00: especially if it's a child,
3:10
SPEAKER_00: surround them with a community of love and forgiveness is sometimes the language.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: And we're really going to be our teaching and our example,
3:16
SPEAKER_00: and we're going to show people these things.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes people grow up and they kind of run away from the faith.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I want to be like,
3:23
SPEAKER_00: well, did the whole congregation do what they said they were going to do?
3:26
SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like you had the experience where you had parents who Taught and had an example.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: And then you did have a community that supported you in a way.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: And so we should actually hope that more people have stories like yours,
3:38
SPEAKER_00: because that means that we're doing our jobs, you know?
3:42
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
3:45
SPEAKER_00: So you are now a pastor.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: Can you tell us where you are the pastor?
3:52
SPEAKER_00: Just so we have some idea where you are located.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Yep, so I'm in Delhi, Iowa, a little town in Delaware County.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: Our claim to fame is Lake Delhi, which is really just a wide spot in the river, and it's great.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: I've been there for, well,
4:08
SPEAKER_01: let's see,
4:09
SPEAKER_01: a year ago in March, so 14, 15 months, something like that, so not too long.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: So Delaware County, that's north-ish and east-ish in Iowa, correct?
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
4:20
SPEAKER_01: So we're like right between Waterloo, Dubuque, and Cedar Rapids.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: If you make that capital T, we're like right in the intersection.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: So you became a pastor about a year or so ago.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: And so my question to you is how did God call you into the ministry?
4:37
SPEAKER_00: What was that journey like?
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: So, well, I graduated high school, played baseball at Cornell College in Mount Vernon, Iowa.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: And For the first time in my life,
4:50
SPEAKER_01: I knew what freedom was like of not having to be at church all the time,
4:56
SPEAKER_01: really focused in on baseball.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: It worked out all right for me.
5:01
SPEAKER_01: We were pretty bad at winning games, but I ended up being an All-American my senior year.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: At the end of the At the end of the year,
5:09
SPEAKER_01: they had the school awards and they called me up to win a couple of awards.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: And the thing that really shocked me was the first thing I said was,
5:17
SPEAKER_01: well, I want to thank my Lord Savior for the gifts he gave me.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: And I could see a look of shockedness on people's faces like this guy knows who Jesus is.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, wow, that's that's kind of eye opening.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, well, my witness for the last four years was obviously pretty poor.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: And I would just wonder now how many people I would have had an opportunity
5:43
SPEAKER_01: to witness to,
5:45
SPEAKER_01: but decided that my personal life and things that I wanted to do are more important.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, that's neither here nor there.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Graduated.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: Got married and started working.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: I went to school to be a teacher.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: Never taught a day in my life in a school other than substitute teaching.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: I just kind of got a little fed up with the things that they required teachers to do
6:14
SPEAKER_01: that were outside of teaching.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: I really wanted to coach baseball and I got a degree in secondary education in history.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: And specifically American history, well,
6:28
SPEAKER_01: there's like six school districts in the state of Iowa that are big enough to employ
6:32
SPEAKER_01: an American history only teacher.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: And having zero experience actually teaching, it's really, really hard to get a job.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: So that probably wasn't the best plan to be marketable for myself.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: I should have gotten a little broader and got a general social studies degree.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: Anyhow, so I started doing a bunch of different jobs.
6:56
SPEAKER_01: I was selling t-shirts.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: I sold tires for a while.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: My wife and I,
7:01
SPEAKER_01: we moved to southeast Nebraska,
7:03
SPEAKER_01: worked for my uncle's chicken farm for a while,
7:05
SPEAKER_01: which was an experience in and of itself.
7:10
SPEAKER_01: Then things just didn't really work out there.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: So we moved back.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: To Iowa.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know what?
7:18
SPEAKER_01: I just can't live in Cedar Rapids.
7:20
SPEAKER_01: She's from there.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: I went to high school there.
7:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm much more of a rural type of person in general.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: I like being outdoors and not seeing people.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: I want to see God's creation.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: And that just wasn't really a thing in Cedar Rapids.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: So we moved back.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: We did the total millennial thing.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: Stayed with her folks for a while.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Then moved in with my folks for a while while we were trying to figure it out.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: And we really fell in love with Manchester.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: And Manchester is just 10 miles down the road from Delhi.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: And my dad's a pastor here in Manchester.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: And so we just started living our lives, figuring out what we wanted to do.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: I worked secular jobs and they needed a youth director here in Manchester.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, well, Sounds like something fun to do.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: I could use some extra money.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: I like hanging out with kids and they're fun and exciting.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: And so I started doing that.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: And throughout my working life, I was always chasing this thing we like to call fulfillment.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: And I never hated any of the jobs that I did, but they were always just jobs.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't something that I really loved to do.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: Then when I took the youth director job, we started a Wednesday night service.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: It was a contemporary service,
8:43
SPEAKER_01: and I started getting an opportunity to preach the Word of God and found
8:48
SPEAKER_01: that fulfillment.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: I figured I'd just work secular jobs and do that forever.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: That'd be all right.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: I can preach a couple times a month, and it'd be good enough.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: Apparently, that was not the call God had for me.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: So, um, you know,
9:08
SPEAKER_01: as time went on,
9:09
SPEAKER_01: I just really became in love with preaching and I was still consistently saying no.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: People had asked me all the time, do you want to be a pastor?
9:19
SPEAKER_01: Do you think you're going to be a pastor?
9:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't want to be a pastor.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: I've seen what my dad's gone through for the last 20 some years of his life.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: You're on call all the time.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: People call you with random things.
9:31
SPEAKER_01: People show up to your house like, no, I don't want any of that.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: And, uh, And I was just like, no, I'm good right where I'm at.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: So I could start to feel God's nudging in my life.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: And I was just, no, God, no, that's not for me.
9:52
SPEAKER_01: Kept pushing him off.
9:54
SPEAKER_01: Then one day, my wife and my two boys and I were going down to see her folks in Cedar Rapids.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: It's about a 40 minute drive for us down there.
10:02
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: We're listening to this song on the radio called Take You at Your Word.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: We're just driving.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: The boys are doing whatever they're doing in the back of the car.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: I look over.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: My wife, she's sobbing, crying.
10:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm crying.
10:20
SPEAKER_01: I was like, this is weird.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: This isn't right.
10:23
SPEAKER_01: We just really feel the Holy Spirit.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: I was like, all right, it's time to give this a real look.
10:31
SPEAKER_01: Here I am.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: That was probably,
10:33
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, three years ago, about a year and a half later, entered into ministry.
10:39
SPEAKER_01: So full time,
10:41
SPEAKER_01: I guess right now I'm three quarters time as a pastor at Delhi and
10:45
SPEAKER_01: then quarter time still the youth and family pastor in Manchester.
10:49
SPEAKER_00: All right.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: So that's where I'm at.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: So I am particularly interested in the issues surrounding rural ministry.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: And you talked about how you kind of are rural at heart and you would prefer
11:03
SPEAKER_00: to get out of the cities.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: And so what do you see as being kind of the big differences between I don't know
11:09
SPEAKER_00: if you did any ministry in Cedar Rapids,
11:11
SPEAKER_00: but what do you see as being the difference culturally or context-wise between urban
11:15
SPEAKER_00: and rural that is either good or bad about being in a rural context?
11:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, honestly,
11:24
SPEAKER_01: I really,
11:25
SPEAKER_01: I think the closeness of the rural people knowing each other all
11:32
SPEAKER_01: in their local area has a lot of pros and a lot of cons.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: But honestly, I really don't see a big difference in rural and urban ministry, right?
11:46
SPEAKER_01: We're all on Team Jesus.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: We're preaching hope in the resurrection.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: So that's where I kind of just, That's what we're going to talk about.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: We're going to talk about Jesus.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: We're all sinners.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: We all need a Savior.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that it matters if you're in a giant city or a small rural area.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: I'd say rurally on the plus, we have opportunity for better relationships.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: That's not so much anonymity to it.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: But there's also that side in rural ministry where you go, Well,
12:19
SPEAKER_01: this person's related to this person who's related to this person and this person,
12:23
SPEAKER_01: and they don't like each other because of whatever happened on
12:25
SPEAKER_01: the farm 45 years ago, and you got to deal with that.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely pros and cons to both.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: But on a grand scale, I don't know that it's really hugely different.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, we're going to talk about Jesus and we all need a savior.
12:43
SPEAKER_01: People in the cities are sinners.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Same with the rural people.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: So...
12:47
SPEAKER_00: I think it's always interesting because like rural folks,
12:49
SPEAKER_00: a lot of times because you have so many generations and so many connections,
12:53
SPEAKER_00: there's a sense in which you may have strained relationships,
12:56
SPEAKER_00: but they also know we still have to live together because we still live
12:59
SPEAKER_00: the same town and you can't really get away from each other.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: And I think that that is both good and bad because it can allow old wounds
13:06
SPEAKER_00: to just kind of stay there.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
13:09
SPEAKER_00: even a city, you can just be like, well, I'm going to drop, go somewhere else.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: I can, I can, I can change my social community.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: I can change my church community.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: I can change where I do my grocery shopping and never move.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: You know,
13:20
SPEAKER_00: whereas in a small town,
13:21
SPEAKER_00: you know, you're,
13:21
SPEAKER_00: you got to rub shoulders with people, whether you always like them or not, you know?
13:24
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: That's, that's very true.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: So you have become a pastor not a real long time ago.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: And so for people like me who have been a pastor for a long time,
13:35
SPEAKER_00: it's sometimes hard to remember all the details of what happens when you go
13:38
SPEAKER_00: from being a layperson to being a pastor.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: But can you share a little bit about what that transition has been like for you?
13:44
SPEAKER_00: What do you feel like is different now that you're a pastor?
13:47
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that surprised you when you became a pastor?
13:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe my experience is different just growing up as a PK than maybe other people.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in the environment where my dad was on call all the time.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Like, I understood what that might look like.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: I think maybe for other people that join in – It's not a vocation
14:14
SPEAKER_01: where you can just clock in and clock out at set hours.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: You get a call at whatever time that so-and-so ended up in the hospital and you got
14:24
SPEAKER_01: to get your butt up there to see them.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: I think some of the things that maybe surprise people in ministry,
14:35
SPEAKER_01: the people stopping at your house randomly that might surprise Yeah.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: For me, that side of things wasn't really shocking.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: I think where I'm at in Delhi, the congregation is amazing.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: They're really supportive of me and ministry together.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: I think our big focus right now At least for the last year has been kind of inward,
15:29
SPEAKER_01: not so much going out into the community,
15:31
SPEAKER_01: but hey, here's what God's calling us to do.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: We have to build up our spiritual depth ourselves before we're really ready to step out.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: They've been really responsive to that.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: And now we're entering into this time of.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: What's our mission as a people?
15:48
SPEAKER_01: We're in a specific place, a specific time, and there's a specific group of people around us.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: So what does that look like as far as reaching out?
15:59
SPEAKER_01: I talk about the Great Commission all the time.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't think I'm weird at all for that.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people do, but we do have a specific mission.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: And what does that look like?
16:11
SPEAKER_01: And so I think to get back to your question,
16:15
SPEAKER_01: The place where I'm at for a first stop has been amazing.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: I got really good people around me that love Jesus and they're on fire for Jesus
16:25
SPEAKER_01: and they help me out a lot.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't have to do a lot of the administrative side of things,
16:30
SPEAKER_01: which is fantastic because I'd rather be boiled in oil than have
16:36
SPEAKER_01: to create worship documents every week and things like that.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: So that's been really good.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, so surprising things, um, maybe just how the schedule is, is just constantly different.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know,
16:52
SPEAKER_01: you got your weekend and week out church chores you got to do,
16:55
SPEAKER_01: you got to get your sermon prepared,
16:56
SPEAKER_01: but then there's this meeting that pops up or that meeting that pops up,
17:00
SPEAKER_01: or you got to go see this person.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: And, uh, And it's great.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: Those are things that I think sometimes can cause burnout,
17:09
SPEAKER_01: but that's our job as pastors is to be there for our people when they need us.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
17:16
SPEAKER_00: I think about that when I talk to folks and I try to find what would be a good time
17:19
SPEAKER_00: to connect.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: And they always say, well, when are you available?
17:22
SPEAKER_00: And I said, I can be remarkably flexible.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: And I always try to be clear, that doesn't mean I don't have stuff to do.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: It just means I can rearrange it pretty easily compared to some other folks.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Precisely because You know,
17:33
SPEAKER_00: you can only do the job for so long before you realize,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: oh, everything kind of has to be movable.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: So I normally work on my sermon on Monday morning.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Something might happen on Monday morning.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: I can't do that.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: You know, I got to be able to move it to somewhere else.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: So do you find do you find that people interact with you differently now that you're
17:50
SPEAKER_00: a pastor than they did before that?
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes and no.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm just a regular guy that loves Jesus.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I'm kind of a take it or leave it.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: But, you know,
18:04
SPEAKER_01: if somebody,
18:06
SPEAKER_01: you know, wants to talk about wrenching on a car or whatever, that works for me.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: And I'm kind of a blue collar guy at heart.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: So if there's some maybe not church appropriate words being thrown around,
18:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't suddenly like burst into flames or anything.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, it's good.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: I do feel like sometimes when people find out that I'm a pastor,
18:29
SPEAKER_01: they're suddenly like trying to clean up their language or change the subject
18:33
SPEAKER_01: or whatever.
18:34
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it's all good.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: Jesus meets us right where we're at.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: So if that's where we're starting, then that's perfect.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: It's a great place to be.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's probably really important.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: I think that there's been a long, on the one hand, I'm not talking a straight line.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: People who are pastors, we talk about, we use the language of being set apart for ministry.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think that there's definitely a good and a bad of that.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: There's at least good and bad ways we can interpret that.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: It's good because we have been kind of set aside to say we need to focus on this.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: We're going to bear this burden for the people.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's a temptation sometimes as pastors to say, well, I'm set apart.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm not supposed to be like everybody else.
19:15
SPEAKER_00: And on one hand, you can say that that makes sense.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: But if that makes it seem as though we're seeing ourselves as above or unrelatable
19:24
SPEAKER_00: to somebody else, I think that can be a problem.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like to me that you are doing a good job of being set apart
19:31
SPEAKER_00: in your vocation, but not set apart from the people.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's probably a really important thing that we all need to remember to do.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: You know,
19:38
SPEAKER_00: those of us who are clergy anyway,
19:39
SPEAKER_00: not everybody, hopefully not everybody who's watching this as a pastor.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully we have some people watching this too.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: I guess I would say that I am holier than nobody.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: I need Jesus just as much as the next guy.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: And I just happen to like talking about Jesus.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: Here I am as a pastor,
19:58
SPEAKER_01: but you know, it's,
20:01
SPEAKER_01: This holier than thou,
20:04
SPEAKER_01: I just heard a story about a guy last weekend that was, this is insane.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: I can't believe this honestly happened.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: So we had senior send off in Manchester, came over for the second service so we could do that.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: Family's in church.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: The older sister brought her Sudoku book.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: She's got some ADHD and she focuses well doing that.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: The guy behind her And service apparently took a issue with that.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: And when when they got up to go up for communion,
20:40
SPEAKER_01: he came back or before he went up for communion,
20:43
SPEAKER_01: he literally took her Sudoku book that she left on the pew away from her so
20:48
SPEAKER_01: that she could not have it for the rest of the service and then started berating her
20:55
SPEAKER_01: because that's just not really respectful to the to the pastor and things like that.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: And You know, I pray that that guy comes to know Jesus in a different light because
21:12
SPEAKER_01: She's in church.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: Like what a better place for her to be, you know, than in church.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: And if she needs to focus by doing a puzzle thing, then great.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: She's still in there hearing the word of God.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: And to have that holier than thou mindset,
21:29
SPEAKER_01: like how destroying is it for that young lady that is working on her relationship
21:35
SPEAKER_01: with Jesus and It just hurts my heart that those things happen.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: And I think then that can happen in a lot of different ways.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: From a pastor perspective,
21:47
SPEAKER_01: if you're set apart to a point that you're not relatable,
21:51
SPEAKER_01: it's hard for those relationships to be built.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: And that's really the big thing in ministry, I think, is just being relational.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: And if you're not relatable, then that's hard.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't want this to be about me telling my stories here because I'm trying to interview you.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: But that reminds me of I started church once and this is before I got there.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: Somebody had sent anonymous letters to several people in
22:15
SPEAKER_00: the congregation telling them what was wrong with them and what they needed to fix
22:19
SPEAKER_00: and how they weren't really worthy to be in the church.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: And and the pastor was at the time just kind of said, well, it'll all blow over.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: But of course, for the people who got the letters, it didn't blow over.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
22:31
SPEAKER_00: one of the things is on the one hand,
22:32
SPEAKER_00: if it's anonymous, you know, nobody knows who it is.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: On the other hand,
22:35
SPEAKER_00: what that means is it could be anybody,
22:37
SPEAKER_00: you know, it's not a conversation where you have a frank back and forth.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's fascinating that I'm sure, I mean,
22:43
SPEAKER_00: I remember at one point asking somebody in the Is there a hypothesis as to who it is
22:48
SPEAKER_00: who sent them?
22:48
SPEAKER_00: And they told me who they thought it was.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure that this person meant well.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that they thought they were doing a good thing and not sign their name.
22:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that not sign their name is also cowardly,
23:00
SPEAKER_00: but I think they probably meant for it to be.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: It's not just trying to be me picking on you.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to tell you the truth, whether you want to hear from me or not.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: But the problem is that what that ends up doing is It says, I know what's wrong with you.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to allow myself to be put under the microscope,
23:19
SPEAKER_00: but I'm going to put you under the microscope.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to judge you based on me rather than what God's doing in your heart.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think that there are times when we're tempted to do things
23:28
SPEAKER_00: from good intentions and That become destructive.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that guy thought he was doing something good,
23:35
SPEAKER_00: but clearly it has a negative consequence to it.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: So Lord, save us from our good intentions sometimes.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: There's a way to do it tactfully and with grace in correction,
23:49
SPEAKER_01: but when you send things anonymously or Try to correct somebody in the middle
23:55
SPEAKER_01: of service.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: That's just not the time or place to do that.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: That's just not right.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, when my older son was much younger, he would quietly build Legos in one of the pews.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: And I'm always grateful for the folks in the church we were serving at the time
24:10
SPEAKER_00: because rather than kind of hassling him and saying, oh,
24:12
SPEAKER_00: you shouldn't do that,
24:13
SPEAKER_00: you should sit still,
24:14
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
24:14
SPEAKER_00: they would sometimes come and bring him new little Lego sets for him to play with.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: And I really appreciate it when they can make room for So tell me about how,
24:24
SPEAKER_00: so you've been at this past,
24:30
SPEAKER_00: you've been in the past,
24:32
SPEAKER_00: this church for,
24:32
SPEAKER_00: for a little over a year,
24:33
SPEAKER_00: you said,
24:33
SPEAKER_00: and so what,
24:35
SPEAKER_00: what has been like, what is exciting to celebrate about ministry in Delhi?
24:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have started some small groups.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: I love the classes and bands structure from John Wesley.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say we're really doing much for bands,
24:54
SPEAKER_01: but I'm a part of a circuit over here with six or seven different churches,
25:01
SPEAKER_01: and we get together and do our Weekly prep.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: We're all in the same series together.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: So we come together, talk about what's on our heart from the scripture of the week.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: And then we've started making devotionals to go with that.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: And we started some small groups at Advent season, and they've really been going.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: I think at the time we were We were around 60 people in worship average weekly,
25:31
SPEAKER_01: and we had about 40 people in small group.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: And so that was really cool.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: And from that, here recently, we've been seeing an uptick in attendance.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: We've been averaging about 80 people.
25:45
SPEAKER_01: I think the really cool thing is that when people come together,
25:48
SPEAKER_01: like I said earlier,
25:50
SPEAKER_01: that that inward focus of our own spiritual lives,
25:54
SPEAKER_01: like how can I ask you to go evangelize to somebody if you yourself are kind of on
25:58
SPEAKER_01: the fence about being a Christian?
26:00
SPEAKER_01: So to see people in Delhi, excuse me.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: The people in Delhi really invest in themselves and their personal relationship
26:09
SPEAKER_01: with Jesus as a community has been really amazing.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: And then hopefully now we can take that from a place of, OK,
26:17
SPEAKER_01: we're going to not just look inside our four walls,
26:20
SPEAKER_01: but there's a giant mission field out there of people that don't know Jesus
26:25
SPEAKER_01: and they all need to at least have an opportunity to hear about him.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: And I want to connect some dots for anybody who might be watching more of these videos.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: So by the time this gets posted,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: I'll have already posted an interview with Carl Dallefeld,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: who is also part of your circuit, correct?
26:39
SPEAKER_01: Yes, sir.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: Yep, that's true.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: So just connecting dots so that the same circuit that he talked about,
26:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:43
SPEAKER_00: that he made connections with is the same one that Zach's talking about here.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, cause I know,
26:47
SPEAKER_00: I know that because I believe it's your dad who organized that in the first place.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: And I know he's put a lot of work into, um,
26:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:53
SPEAKER_00: that district and circuit ministry, uh,
26:55
SPEAKER_00: that really in many ways can be a great model for,
26:57
SPEAKER_00: for how other districts and circuits do things.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's worth, worth learning about.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'll have to have him on here to talk about circuit ministry.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that'd be cool.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure he'd love to.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: The only problem is my whole point of all this was
27:08
SPEAKER_00: to not necessarily be interviewing,
27:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:10
SPEAKER_00: like presiding elders cause they,
27:11
SPEAKER_00: they have their own visibility, but we'll see how it goes.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: You know,
27:16
SPEAKER_01: the circuit ministry,
27:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that's also been a huge help for me going into being a pastor.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: I've never done this really at all, and I'm still pretty green around the neck.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: So when we do get together, it's pretty awesome.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: We have pastors.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: I have a certified lay minister in my congregation.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: She's welcome at circuit.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: She preaches all over the different circuit churches.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: And so it's really cool.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: We get together for fellowship to eat lunch, just talk about what's going on in our lives.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: And we come together for our business meeting and we talk about,
27:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:55
SPEAKER_01: prayer concerns,
27:56
SPEAKER_01: either personal or things going on in our churches or individuals in our churches
28:00
SPEAKER_01: that really need extra prayer.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: We talk about how our peace is,
28:05
SPEAKER_01: because oftentimes pastors have a lot of things going on and it's It's a time
28:12
SPEAKER_01: where we can just come together and relate with each other as well
28:16
SPEAKER_01: as maybe help each other through whatever our situation is.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: And then we get into our sermon prep, and that part is probably the greatest part for me.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: There's some abundant knowledge, huge knowledge in that room.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: I may be thinking about going a certain direction, need a bridge.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's a certain way a particular scripture passage speaks to a person
28:41
SPEAKER_01: and they come and bring that forth.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: And then when they do, it's like, oh, that makes so much sense.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm totally stealing that, by the way.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: And I'll give that person the credit on Sunday morning.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: Then we talk about partner ministry opportunities as well, so we're fairly spread out.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: We have people that come from north of Waterloo all the way to the Wyoming area,
29:05
SPEAKER_01: so a couple hours spread,
29:07
SPEAKER_01: but there's different things that we do in our local churches that
29:11
SPEAKER_01: if we can join together or show up to support, it's pretty cool stuff.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: But that really helps for the sermons,
29:21
SPEAKER_01: the sermon prep, all of that stuff that goes into the week to week basis.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty new into school.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: I haven't taken Greek or Hebrew or anything like that.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: So some of that extra knowledge on what like a particular word means
29:36
SPEAKER_01: or what it meant in the ancient language is pretty helpful.
29:40
SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned school, and I want to ask you about school.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: So you're in the process of getting your kind of theological education.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: What has that been like for you, and in what ways has that helped you?
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, I first started,
29:56
SPEAKER_01: don't shoot me for this,
29:57
SPEAKER_01: but going to Wesley Biblical Seminary in the Course of Study program.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: I know I'm at the rival school here,
30:04
SPEAKER_01: but it's been really good just to To start getting a little bit
30:10
SPEAKER_01: of deeper understanding.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: Some of it is kind of like old hat.
30:16
SPEAKER_01: I grew up in the United Methodist Church.
30:19
SPEAKER_01: And so I know a lot about the John Wesley and the Wesley brothers and
30:23
SPEAKER_01: the Wesleyan tradition and all of that.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: But then you get into some more of the last class I was in was the preaching class.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what does a good sermon look like?
30:34
SPEAKER_01: How do we prepare those?
30:37
SPEAKER_01: And so there's been good things in every class.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: I just switched over to Asbury Seminary for their course of study program simply
30:47
SPEAKER_01: because their classes are seven weeks long instead of full semester.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: So I can go from doing three classes a year to five classes a year.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: And personally, I'm not a great student.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: It's worked for me.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: I feel like sometimes I can...
31:07
SPEAKER_01: Take away from other ministry opportunities.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: So I just kind of want to get through school so I can learn the things I need
31:13
SPEAKER_01: to learn and move on to the things that I would like to do in ministry for
31:19
SPEAKER_01: that time frame that it takes throughout a week.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know about Asbury yet.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed Wesley, but the semester long was...
31:31
SPEAKER_01: Lengthy, so I'm trying to speed up my process.
31:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't really want to be in school for the next seven years of my life.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: That seems like a long time.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: And I can take more classes at a time,
31:40
SPEAKER_01: but with working two jobs and two boys and being a husband and trying to be a father
31:46
SPEAKER_01: and all of the things that come with life,
31:49
SPEAKER_01: one class at a time is kind of what works for me.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: So one of the things,
31:53
SPEAKER_00: whenever people talk about their schooling,
31:54
SPEAKER_00: and I've been trying to emphasize this,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: is that, I mean,
31:57
SPEAKER_00: you already got at this point,
31:59
SPEAKER_00: which is Asbury does things differently than WBS does.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: And as I've talked about before,
32:04
SPEAKER_00: I teach at United and we do things differently than either of those two.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: And so what I've been Yeah.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: And so I want to encourage anybody who's watching this,
32:30
SPEAKER_00: who's thinking about doing education for ministry to look at the different programs,
32:36
SPEAKER_00: because you may find that one of them fits with your schedule and your way
32:39
SPEAKER_00: of life better than others.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: So you can kind of integrate your education rather than have to fight against it
32:44
SPEAKER_00: as much as possible.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and education is super important.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't mean to diminish it in any way.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: I think that's what sets us apart as global Methodists and even in the UMC.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: You know,
32:58
SPEAKER_01: if we wanted to just throw anybody in the pulpit or make sure that they're set up
33:03
SPEAKER_01: for pastoral ministry,
33:05
SPEAKER_01: we'd just be Baptists and, you know, just get the paper and call it good.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: But There is very important to learn about what our call is.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll find out pastoral ministry isn't my call as I continue in education.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that yet.
33:23
SPEAKER_01: I feel called the pastoral ministry right now, but maybe it's something different down the road.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's very important.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: And then For me,
33:34
SPEAKER_01: the course of study,
33:35
SPEAKER_01: being online, I don't have to travel to Asbury or Wesley Biblical.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: So that's really helpful that I can do it from home.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: I know when my dad went through school,
33:47
SPEAKER_01: he was in Ohio,
33:49
SPEAKER_01: and he would have to go away for three weeks every summer for an intensive.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: He was gone oftentimes for long weekends, and that's not the case anymore.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: So it's really getting to a point where it's manageable right where you're at.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: So if you're in the middle of nowhere,
34:05
SPEAKER_01: North Dakota or whatever,
34:07
SPEAKER_01: and you're hours and hours and hours from anywhere,
34:10
SPEAKER_01: you can still do school, and it's great.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a fantastic moment that we're in,
34:15
SPEAKER_00: and I know that sometimes – So there's a difference of opinion in
34:19
SPEAKER_00: the Globe Methodist Church that there's at least a segment that really wants
34:22
SPEAKER_00: to advocate for everyone needs a master's degree.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Everyone needs to have that experience.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: And as someone who has a master's in divinity, I understand the value of it.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: But I also know that in order for schools to maintain master divinity programs,
34:36
SPEAKER_00: there's all kinds of things they have to check off boxes.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: And that adds to time.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: It adds to expense.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: It adds to a bunch of stuff.
34:43
SPEAKER_00: And some of that's not necessarily bad,
34:45
SPEAKER_00: but it doesn't all contribute to effectiveness in ministry.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: And I know I've met a bunch of people who have master's degrees and doctors
34:51
SPEAKER_00: in ministry who don't do very effective ministry.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: And I've known folks who are committed to learning and they want to grow,
34:59
SPEAKER_00: but they don't necessarily have some of those degrees and yet they're passionate
35:05
SPEAKER_00: and they're fruitful.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think that providing a way,
35:08
SPEAKER_00: especially in a rural conference like we're in,
35:11
SPEAKER_00: And I love the fact that we have some flexibility built into things that we can say,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: um,
35:37
SPEAKER_00: We know the education we need you to have.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: We know the education is going to be helpful,
35:40
SPEAKER_00: and we don't care,
35:42
SPEAKER_00: at least at the moment,
35:42
SPEAKER_00: we don't care whether it's a master's degree or one of these other programs
35:46
SPEAKER_00: because we're going over all of these programs
35:48
SPEAKER_00: to make sure they're giving us what we need.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: And so I hope that the general conference doesn't change that because,
35:53
SPEAKER_00: in fact,
35:53
SPEAKER_00: I hope that we get a little more flexibility even than that because I think
35:57
SPEAKER_00: that it will do things that might make sense
36:00
SPEAKER_00: in some conferences don't necessarily make sense everywhere,
36:02
SPEAKER_00: and I hope we can keep the flexibility to allow for maximum thriving everywhere.
36:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I mean,
36:08
SPEAKER_01: across the nation, we have a shortage of pastors in pretty much every denomination.
36:15
SPEAKER_01: So to put up too big a barrier,
36:18
SPEAKER_01: people are just going to say, no,
36:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to go into pastoral ministry,
36:23
SPEAKER_01: or they're going to go to a different denomination where the barrier is less.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: So being completely rigid is not probably very helpful.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: So one of the questions I'm asking everybody,
36:34
SPEAKER_00: so again,
36:35
SPEAKER_00: so this is the first church you've served as a pastor,
36:38
SPEAKER_00: but you've been involved at least in the Manchester Church and you had experiences
36:41
SPEAKER_00: in other churches.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: So I always try to emphasize, I do not ask you to pick on any particular church.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious if you have if you've seen anything that you see as like a sickness,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: like a barrier to flourishing and thriving in multiple churches that you see is kind
36:57
SPEAKER_00: of common,
36:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:58
SPEAKER_00: a common issue that needs to be kind of diagnosed,
37:00
SPEAKER_00: named so we can kind of work our way through it.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, what what do you see as being a common thing that holds churches back?
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah,
37:10
SPEAKER_01: I think just the general thing that I see is probably our priority level of Jesus
37:17
SPEAKER_01: in our lives as congregations as a whole.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: In America, we're very fortunate.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: We all hardly ever leave 70 degrees.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: We have heat,
37:29
SPEAKER_01: air conditioning,
37:30
SPEAKER_01: running water,
37:31
SPEAKER_01: roofs over our head,
37:32
SPEAKER_01: and the reliance on Jesus in our lives is pretty low, I think, as a whole.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: We see that a lot in our kids with their extracurricular activities.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: People, or at least up here,
37:51
SPEAKER_01: schools have everything on Monday,
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday, and Wednesday is supposed to be left over for church.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: However,
37:59
SPEAKER_01: all the extracurricular club activities said,
38:02
SPEAKER_01: oh, there's an open day so we can plug all our stuff in there.
38:07
SPEAKER_01: And I think as...
38:09
SPEAKER_01: As parents, we have to prioritize Jesus as number one, but we're not doing that as a whole.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: And so if somebody schedules a Boy Scout meeting or dance class or
38:23
SPEAKER_01: the club baseball team or whatever they're having practice,
38:26
SPEAKER_01: well, we're paying a lot of money for that stuff so our kid can't miss it.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: Here's the thing that I think is awesome.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
38:35
SPEAKER_01: everybody thinks their kid's going to be the next Michael Jordan or Derek Jeter
38:40
SPEAKER_01: or whoever, pick your favorite sports person.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: And that's fine.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: They may be.
38:45
SPEAKER_01: And that might happen.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, at some point, that child is going to retire from sports.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is eternal.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: And we're trading...
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Relationship with Jesus at the most impressionable age for our children
39:01
SPEAKER_01: for potentially, I mean,
39:03
SPEAKER_01: like 0.01% chance that your kid's going to be a professional athlete for
39:08
SPEAKER_01: an eternal relationship with Jesus.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: So until people prioritize Jesus as number one in their lives,
39:15
SPEAKER_01: I think we're going to see some struggles.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think we really need to figure out ways that we can, um,
39:23
SPEAKER_01: I guess the right way to put it would be to show the importance of a relationship
39:27
SPEAKER_01: with Jesus.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: Jesus isn't just interested in your being in heaven.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: He wants a relationship with you right now, today, and through the rest of your life.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's where we need to be is Jesus.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Jesus wants that relationship with you right now.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: It's important.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: It's important for you.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: It's important for your kids.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: It's important for their kids someday.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: And if we just allow these extracurriculars to continually rob availability
39:58
SPEAKER_01: for faith development, we're going to, well, we've seen it.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: We've seen it for a long time.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: The church has been in decline for many years.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think it's anything new, but how do we diagnose that?
40:12
SPEAKER_01: Articulate it in a way that our people can understand it.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: And then hopefully our people will have a heart to say, you know what, we can change this.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: I guess I'm living proof of that as a kid in Oklahoma.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: For the football team, they had playoffs.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: They started on Wednesday nights and we made the playoffs that year.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: And we said we're not playing on Wednesday night.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: That's church night.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: And we took a forfeit and People thought it was insane.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: Parents on the team weren't happy.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: The league was like, you just can't forfeit a game.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Like you can't do that.
40:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, we did.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: And then the following year, the playoffs started on Tuesday night.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: And so change can happen.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: We just have to be willing to say, no,
41:00
SPEAKER_01: this is a sacred night for us or faith development for our child is important
41:04
SPEAKER_01: and it will happen.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: And the other stuff can come in the spare time.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: I want to highlight a few things.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: I want to be clear about the fact that you were an All-American baseball player in college.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: And so you know better than I would about the likelihood of becoming a professional athlete.
41:18
SPEAKER_00: And your story just now reminds me of when I was in high school,
41:22
SPEAKER_00: one of our active members in our youth group, he was on the baseball team.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: And it was a very, very good baseball team that year.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: And at one point,
41:29
SPEAKER_00: there was some playoff game or whatever that he was going to miss because of
41:33
SPEAKER_00: a mission trip.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: And the coach said,
41:35
SPEAKER_00: if you miss this game or this practice for your mission trip,
41:37
SPEAKER_00: you won't be able to play and whatever.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: And he said, okay.
41:40
SPEAKER_00: And he went to the mission trip anyway.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: And people couldn't understand it.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: And yet he said, this is what's important to me.
41:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think also what's interesting, and I wonder how much this is a role where...
41:51
SPEAKER_00: I remember as a kid and when we talk about good choices and all the rest,
41:55
SPEAKER_00: we always seem to talk about it as if it's like you're choosing Jesus
41:58
SPEAKER_00: or are you choosing heroin?
41:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, like those two things.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: But the choices that we often have to make are between Jesus and something else
42:05
SPEAKER_00: that is also good in its own way.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, so like why are the sports important?
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Well, teamwork is important and getting along with other people is important
42:12
SPEAKER_00: and working together for a common goal is important and learning how
42:15
SPEAKER_00: to push ourselves for success is important.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they all are.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: And so it's It's one of those things where when you're choosing
42:21
SPEAKER_00: between something that's good and something that's better,
42:23
SPEAKER_00: I think that's always going to be harder because we can make excuses and look
42:28
SPEAKER_00: at things from other points of view.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
42:31
SPEAKER_00: just doesn't tell us, you know, I want to be better than 50% of what you value.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: You know, he asks for all of us.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: And that's a challenge for all of us.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: I haven't found it in the scripture anywhere where Jesus says we can't have fun.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, I haven't found it yet.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's some boundaries on what our fun can be.
42:53
SPEAKER_01: Sports are fantastic.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: They're great.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: But they need to be below our relationship with Jesus.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: And all too often,
43:04
SPEAKER_01: we're sacrificing that relationship with Jesus because our kid has a practice or
43:09
SPEAKER_01: a game and it hurts my heart a lot.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: We had an experience here in this town.
43:16
SPEAKER_00: Our boys' football team won the 1A state football team tournament,
43:22
SPEAKER_00: and they made it to the semifinals of the basketball tournament, you know?
43:26
SPEAKER_00: And on the one hand,
43:27
SPEAKER_00: whenever we talk about sports in town,
43:29
SPEAKER_00: they would say, well, you know, school's not all about sports.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: And yet at the same time,
43:32
SPEAKER_00: when they make it to the state tournament,
43:34
SPEAKER_00: everything shuts down and everyone goes, you know?
43:36
SPEAKER_00: So we behave as though it's highly important.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: But I always want to admit it, you know?
43:44
SPEAKER_00: So is there,
43:44
SPEAKER_00: is there anything else,
43:45
SPEAKER_00: anything else that you want to share about,
43:47
SPEAKER_00: you know, um,
43:48
SPEAKER_00: you just to the people out there,
43:50
SPEAKER_00: anything that you want to make sure you don't forget to talk about?
43:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think that's probably the main thing.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: You know,
43:58
SPEAKER_01: if you have a relationship with Jesus,
44:02
SPEAKER_01: even if it's brand new,
44:05
SPEAKER_01: if you're a young Christian,
44:06
SPEAKER_01: like don't dip your toe in, just, just dive all the way in.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: Everything else is going to work out.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, Jesus says his burden is light, and that's true.
44:16
SPEAKER_01: Cast your worries on him and all will be well.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that life's going to be easy.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: There's still going to be challenges.
44:23
SPEAKER_01: We still live in a fallen world.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: We will have to go through those hard things,
44:30
SPEAKER_01: but having a relationship with Jesus, your life will will never be better.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: We'll actually understand what love, joy, peace and hope look like this side of the veil.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: And then someday we're going to wake up to a resurrected body with Jesus
44:46
SPEAKER_01: and we'll be able to walk the streets with them.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: It's going to be amazing and incredible.
44:50
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, just dive in.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: Don't don't hold back.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: Study your scriptures.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: Pray.
44:57
SPEAKER_01: Get into a small group.
44:58
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a fantastic place to be.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: Having that accountability to say, hey, I got this going on in my life.
45:06
SPEAKER_01: What do you all think?
45:07
SPEAKER_01: And we can look at you and go, hey, you're being a bonehead or man, that example is amazing.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: Like I want to try to live my life like that.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: So just working with people,
45:17
SPEAKER_01: building those relationships with each other and actually being in community,
45:20
SPEAKER_01: understanding that you're not alone on an island, I think.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: In the world today,
45:27
SPEAKER_01: we see so much that says, like, oh, if you're a Christian, you're by yourself.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, don't talk about Jesus because you're going to get berated for it.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: And that's true.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: We are told that in Scripture, that the world will hate you, and that's okay.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: We don't live for the world.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: Our dwelling place is in heaven.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: We're just on rented ground down here for a while.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: So deal with it, but don't sacrifice your relationship with Jesus.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: Very good words.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: Zach, will you be willing to close us out in prayer?
45:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
46:00
SPEAKER_01: Am I blind to hear?
46:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm follically challenged.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: Y'all, let's go before the Lord in prayer.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: Father God,
46:08
SPEAKER_01: it is so good just to have a conversation about my life with you
46:15
SPEAKER_01: and what that's looked like and how it's changed and evolved.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: Lord, I just hope that somebody that hears these words today, maybe they're in the same boat.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, that they will just, just jump in, jump in the deep end to a relationship with you.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: Life will never be the same and it's only going to be so much better.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: So, um, Lord, I thank you, um, for what you've done in my life.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: I thank you for calling me into ministry and Lord, um, as, as we go forth to, um,
46:48
SPEAKER_01: Be ambassadors of your son Jesus and the life-saving power of his death
46:52
SPEAKER_01: and resurrection on the cross, Lord.
46:54
SPEAKER_01: Just give us the strength and boldness to go forth to proclaim that story so
47:00
SPEAKER_01: that all that we come into contact with will have an opportunity to know you.
47:05
SPEAKER_01: Lord, we love you.
47:06
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: Well, this has been what you have seen and heard.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: Our guest has been Reverend Zach Rogers.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: I want to let you guys know again,
47:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm just some guy looking to have some conversations with folks
47:16
SPEAKER_00: who are doing exciting ministry or who have good stories to tell,
47:19
SPEAKER_00: you know, to encourage one another.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: And so if you know anybody who would be the kind of person who I should be talking
47:24
SPEAKER_00: to, you can let me know about it.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: You can reach me at pastortravisatmarcusgrace.com.
47:30
SPEAKER_00: So thanks for watching this conversation and I hope to see you next time.