Latest / Live Byrnes / #1 KCFD Battalion Chief Chad Dailey - Tactical Discipline, Fireground Reality, and the Human Cost

Transcript

#1 KCFD Battalion Chief Chad Dailey - Tactical Discipline, Fireground Reality, and the Human Cost · Live Byrnes

0:13
SPEAKER_03: Real world tactics.
0:15
SPEAKER_03: No fluff.
0:17
SPEAKER_03: Mastering the fire ground.
0:19
SPEAKER_03: Let's get to work.
0:22
SPEAKER_04: Hey everybody, welcome to the very first OBRN Fireground Trainings podcast.
0:27
SPEAKER_04: Today, well, let's just say we've got a very experienced firefighter from the trenches of Kansas City.
0:32
SPEAKER_04: They say the best teachers are the ones who have lived the lessons.
0:36
SPEAKER_04: My guest today didn't just uh study firefighting.
0:38
SPEAKER_04: He spent his career in the trenches of the Kansas City Fire Department, operating on one of the busiest rescue companies in the city.
0:44
SPEAKER_04: After years of mastering the craft under the toughest conditions imaginable, he's now moved from the fire ground to the classroom and still maintaining that safety as a battalion chief of safety.
0:55
SPEAKER_04: We're sitting down to talk about how he's distilled a career of organized chaos into the training methodologies that are changing how departments prepare for the worst.
1:02
SPEAKER_04: Chad, welcome to the podcast.
1:05
SPEAKER_04: Thanks for having me.
1:06
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
1:08
SPEAKER_04: So tell me, as someone who spent a career in the uh go mode of a busy rescue company, how has your uh perspective on risk changed?
1:17
SPEAKER_04: How uh changed now that your uh primary mission as a battalion chief of safety is to ensure everyone goes home.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of people want to be critical of safety of a safety culture.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: Um that started several years ago, and I think it it came about in the fire service um in a negative way, where we were handcuffing guys into not doing the aggressive life-saving skills and tactics that we always done.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh I think McCormick was one of the first people, a keynote speaker at FDIC, the the shed light on that.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh so therefore, um as for how it's affected me and my role, it it uh uh in no way has safety stopped aggressive life-saving tactics on the fire ground uh or any influence I may or may not have over uh anybody in my job.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: But uh, but it has opened my eyes to risks we do unnecessarily take when it comes to exposures to cancer, um when when uh and other fire ground tasks that we do on a routine basis.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: It's like sometimes you just look at where we're dying.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh over half of line of duty deaths are cardiac arrest.
2:29
SPEAKER_01: So where's our focus?
2:30
SPEAKER_01: And what are we trying to do?
2:31
SPEAKER_01: What are we doing to change that?
2:33
SPEAKER_01: There's not much.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh when it comes that the next leading cause of line of duty death is cancer, I believe.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: What are we doing?
2:40
SPEAKER_01: Are we gross decon?
2:42
SPEAKER_01: Are we doing anything to mitigate that?
2:44
SPEAKER_01: So uh so that's that's where my focus is on those kind of things.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't affect the day-to-day, it doesn't affect running to the rig, getting your gear on, going out the door, and making that grab or putting that fire out.
2:55
SPEAKER_01: Um to a big extent.
2:57
SPEAKER_01: It's more so uh everything else uh in bit in between the cracks there that we can do better to um you know have a long, successful career and hopefully retire out of this job 25 years and still be go home and be healthy.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: That's the goal.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Get your time in, go home and have a life after this.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, we we all this job becomes our identity, and yes, we most of us want to do it with the utmost of passion, but it's like we got to look at the big picture, and you know, when when it's appropriate to jump through that window and make that grab, by all means do it.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: And I have your back 100% because uh me and the guys I've worked with, we've done that.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: And and that safety culture doesn't change that, but it can tweak the way we do things and make our longevity a lot better.
3:47
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely well said, yeah, and that's definitely something I agree with is uh a lot of our guys after their career's over, it's uh not very long afterwards that it seems like they're they're dying and just not getting the chance to enjoy that retirement, which right that's and you don't want to retire broke.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: I know my wife said if I retire broke, she'd gone.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: So so I yeah, we don't who wants to retire broke?
4:10
SPEAKER_01: It's you know, broken in a broken state.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Uh that's not that's not the the end goal.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, we love our job and we give our bodies and and and and our minds and everything to it, but it's like we gotta learn how to take care of it along the way better.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: And I I think we I think we're at a point in the fire service that we uh as a whole, everyone is starting to acknowledge that.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: I don't think we fully reacted to that, and I don't think it has to change how aggressive we are on the fire ground um and what we do.
4:37
SPEAKER_01: But um I think we're moving in the needle is moving in the right direction.
4:40
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I absolutely agree.
4:42
SPEAKER_04: Uh as for instance, you know, just uh fitness in the in the today's modern fire service.
4:48
SPEAKER_04: Uh I remember the beginning of my career, and I know you saw the same thing.
4:51
SPEAKER_04: We didn't have a lot of guys that were in shape, including myself at times.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we usually smoke cigarettes during overhaul.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
4:56
SPEAKER_04: And just just seeing the fitness side of things and and the mental health is a huge thing that uh I'm very fortunate.
5:04
SPEAKER_04: Uh the fire grounds change or the fire services changing and being more reactive toward for our guys.
5:09
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I agree.
5:10
SPEAKER_04: Broken mentally and physically is just not a good way to retire.
5:13
SPEAKER_04: So I'd like to go back to um before the fire service to start this whole thing out.
5:20
SPEAKER_04: You know, what what what uh what was the like specific moment or like an influence you had in your life that kind of drove you to, you know, to say this is what I'm gonna do?
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Well, I wanted to be a trash man.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's nothing cooler than riding the back of a trash truck and watching that every week come by my house.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: But then once I once I grew up a little more, got a little older and realized what my dad did, uh he was a firefighter for Kansas City, uh 32 years.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Um uh and I got exposed to that.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: It's like it's it's very difficult.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: We see it in the fire service all the time.
5:53
SPEAKER_01: Everyone has relatives on the job, uh, whether it's this job or adjoining city or somewhere else in the country.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: Um it it's just it's just the way it is.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh the influence you have as a child with a father uh who's in the fire service, it's it's there's there's no greater impact than that to create the next generation of firefighters.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh even as much as my father, and I know a lot of other people try so hard not to.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: My dad said, I'm going to college.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: No way, I'm going into fire service.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: And here we are, 35 years into the fire service, and he's not even with us anymore.
6:29
SPEAKER_01: He gave me my my retirement gift uh and was begging me to retire because he didn't want me to retire broke and hurt.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, so he he gave me retirement gifts.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: He's like, Dad, I'm not retiring.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: He's like, Well, you need to, son.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: Here you go.
6:42
SPEAKER_01: He's like, I probably won't be here when when when you do.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: And he was right.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh he ain't here and I'm still working.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: And I still love my job.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: And I uh but I'm taking care of myself, you know.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: I work out and and and and go to all the proper doctors, doctor appointments to stay on top of stuff and try to uh mentally, spiritually, whatever works for you, I try to keep my mind right, be available for my family, keep my priorities straight.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I'd say uh my dad was the biggest influence.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: And of course, uh being a kid who grew up probably undiagnosed, ADD, HD, whatever it is, uh uh my personality I think fits right into the role of firefighter.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, I I'm jumping off the highest things I can find in my neighborhood with my BMX bike and doing all this crazy shit with all the other kids in the neighborhood.
7:28
SPEAKER_01: So uh it fits.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: It fits.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: And then and and honestly, I think in the fire service, this is something I don't think it's talked about enough.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Um creating longevity, creating the right people in the fire service, uh controlling the mental health crises that we have in the fire service.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: I honestly I think it boils down to uh how we hire.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh when I got on, uh we didn't have to go out and have job fairs.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: Everyone already knows what a fireman is.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: There's enough movies and stuff out there.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: A kid knows what the job of firefighter is.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: What do we need a job fair for?
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Um when I got on, there's 3,000 people trying to get on.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: It took me four years.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, it wasn't something that was handed out, and that's so I could make$18 an hour.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: I was making more than that.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: So was my dad.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: He was making more than that when he got on the job.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: So uh I I I think I think in hiring when we turned it over to personnel departments and DEI departments and stuff like that, it's like and started deciding that talking people into being firemen who had never thought about it before.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh I I I think that created some of our problems, and not that we don't gain some very good firefighters through those endeavors, and it does diversify what we have, which is needed.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I I think firemen hiring firemen, knowing the personality needed, the mindset needed, I think we had less issues.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: Um I I got nothing scientific or data to drive that.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: That's just the 35 years of data that I've been watching since I've been on the job.
9:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, which means something.
9:03
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's experience not only on the fire ground, but there's experience in just in knowing the fire ground.
9:08
SPEAKER_04: Observing and seeing.
9:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
9:10
SPEAKER_04: I totally agree with that.
9:11
SPEAKER_04: So your dad was 32 years on the job, right?
9:15
SPEAKER_04: What uh what kind of companies did he serve in?
9:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh mostly midtown inner city companies where uh they ran lots of fires.
9:24
SPEAKER_04: Engines, trucks, rescues, uh pump pumpers.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: He he he liked to be on the pipe, the nozzle.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Um that was that was the only spot for him on the fire ground.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: And uh it really kind of sucked in the fire service for me, and that the whole leadership and teaching mentality kind of changed with when I first got on, the captains always had the Jaws of Light, the Hirsch tool, whatever.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Uh they always had the nozzle and this and that.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: Then come the 90s, and I start to promote up, and we're adopting uh an idea that oh, we need putting the firefighters in these roles and overseeing and teaching and training so they get this experience.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: So it's like, oh man, I I finally made captain, now I'll get the nozzle, now I'll get the tool.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh really, I need to hand this off to and let it watch a firefighter do it.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: So it it kind of sucked for me personally, but that's the right thing to do.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh the evolution that we made there, at least on our department, that's the way it used to be.
10:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's and it's been that way since I got on in the 90s.
10:27
SPEAKER_04: Uh firefighter had the nozzle type deal, so I don't even know the the difference.
10:30
SPEAKER_04: But I can see you work real hard to get to where you want to be, and then they got their hands.
10:35
SPEAKER_04: Right.
10:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's that's good.
10:37
SPEAKER_04: Uh so what about what about the rest of your family?
10:41
SPEAKER_04: Um, you talked about your dad.
10:43
SPEAKER_04: Um, obviously, uh we all at O'Burn know your mom, right?
10:48
SPEAKER_04: Um so tell us more about your childhood and growing up and your family life and all that kind of stuff.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, yeah, I ended up uh I have a sister and a brother.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: They both ended up uh on the fire department.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: My brother's a battalion chief.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: My sister did 25 years, is retired.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: Um uh I have a son-in-law who's on the fire department.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: I have another daughter who's a police officer, her husband is a police officer, my wife's a nurse.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think that that story runs true with a whole lot of people in the fire service.
11:18
SPEAKER_01: We just seem to attract uh other people and roles and jobs that serve teachers, doctors or teachers, nurses, stuff like that.
11:27
SPEAKER_01: So uh, but yeah, so I you know, between uh uh my brother, my sister, my uh son-in-law, and and and the people in the police service, uh we have we have a lot in common.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: And uh it just runs, it just it's it just runs in the family.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: It is what it is, and we're all happy.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: We want our jobs, we love our jobs.
11:48
SPEAKER_04: And uh I think you uh said a really important word there, which is the the serving.
11:55
SPEAKER_04: That serving attitude, that serving mentality, uh, which is man, you it sounds like your entire family serves in one way or another.
12:02
SPEAKER_04: Um Jelly Daughter's a teacher, right?
12:04
SPEAKER_04: Or something like that.
12:04
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so there you go.
12:05
SPEAKER_04: There's even more serving there as well.
12:08
SPEAKER_04: So that's uh that's a huge part of what this job is.
12:11
SPEAKER_04: And I um personally I think that's a part of the culture that we've lost.
12:15
SPEAKER_04: I think uh a lot of it is even in today's society in general, it's just that me, me, me mentality versus that servitude toward one another, which is really what this job's all about.
12:26
SPEAKER_04: Um so as far as uh serving outside of that, um, you know, when it comes to training and stuff like that, I know you've seen the same thing I have, is um sometimes uh attendance in certain areas that we go is low compared to other areas that it seems to be pretty high.
12:42
SPEAKER_04: And I just I just wonder what the difference in culture is in those departments.
12:46
SPEAKER_04: Do you have any ideas on that?
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Uh no, I I I think each department inherently has its own type of culture.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: It depends on the leadership at the top that drives it.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: Um but like I've always like I've always said it's like you can be at the slowest, crappiest station there is and have a great culture if you have if you got the right people there.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: So um and also touching back on something, it's I had a I had a fire I had a he was the chief at the time, uh made me look at the fire service a little different, made me look at myself a little different, and realize that the fire service sometimes uh I felt like I was is selfish.
13:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, why did I really get did I really the interview question, why do you want to do this?
13:29
SPEAKER_01: I want to I want to serve the public.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: Did you really get in it at 18, 19, 20 years old to serve the public, or because you want the adrenaline rush of dragging a nozzle through the front door?
13:41
SPEAKER_01: That's why I did it.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: Now it's cool that I get saved lives.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: Now I've been doing it 35 years.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that is why I do it.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: But originally I needed identity.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm a young man.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: I needed to create my identity.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: That was it, and I wanted the thrill of doing it.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: Um so then move on in life, get yourself 20, 25 years in, raise a family, and let them see the sacrifices of sitting at home worrying about you, um, going to 9-11 for two weeks, and and they're worried something's gonna happen, not sure if you're gonna come back.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's when I had a battalion chief walk in the door and tell me, give me, give me an application to put in for battalion chief.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, nah, that's not for me, chief.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm not selling out like you.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: And he's and that's when he called me a selfish MF.
14:29
SPEAKER_01: He's like, you need to do this.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: You've been coming in here for 25 years, riding on this busy fire truck, going to fires, your family sitting at home, wondering if you're gonna come back through that door and if you're gonna be broke or hurt, or how broke or hurt you'll be, whether it's physically or mentally.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: He's like, you do this for your family.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: And in his words, he's like, you do it for her because you're probably gonna die within two years of retiring.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: I was like, damn, that's cold.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, not altogether wrong.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: Hopefully that's not not true for most, all of us, but because we take, you know, we're pretending to take better care of ourselves now.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: But um, but it made a very valid point that made he made me ponder on for a long time.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: And there is a little bit of selfishness there, I feel like, and therefore I've re-looked at myself and how I proportioned my time to the fire service and to my family and the different things and made sure uh and my faith and made sure that all those things were in my mind and my heart right.
15:30
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
15:31
SPEAKER_04: And I I like how you uh talk about your faith as well.
15:34
SPEAKER_04: Um, that's something that uh even myself recently, uh ever the last several years have found myself and my faith as well, and how much that's actually meant and how much that helps to be able to do the job more and remember about that servitude.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know how someone can do this job without it.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: It's uh uh the things we see, it doesn't matter, big town, small town.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Uh you're gonna see things and do things, and and like I tell us in the classes we teach together, you know, someone goes through that trash trash compactor, doesn't know it doesn't matter if you know them.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: There's nobody else.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: There's no company you can hire to come get get this guy out of the compactor.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Guess what?
16:10
SPEAKER_01: That's you.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: That's you, that's the fire department.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: We do what nobody else wants to do, uh whether it's saving a life or recovering the body or some other horrific stuff.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we have to uh mentally be able to digest that and deal with that and go home to our family and and live a healthy, uh, productive life and be and be available, not stuck in our head over over stuff we've seen and done.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: And without a faith to fall back on, uh I can I I can help people and counsel people, but it's really hard when they're when when when they don't have the same faith.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: Um it makes it more challenging for me uh to put an understanding to the things that we will see and do in this job.
16:51
SPEAKER_04: Sure.
16:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and you know, and uh gone through that myself.
16:55
SPEAKER_04: I know you and I have known each other a long time.
16:57
SPEAKER_04: I think we both kind of went through that uh whole phase where we weren't really into our faith and all that.
17:02
SPEAKER_04: Um and it is hard to have this conversation, especially when somebody doesn't want to hear it, but uh probably well not probably, it is way more important than anything we could teach somebody in the classroom.
17:12
SPEAKER_04: And uh just by you even expressing that today is is uh very thankful for that.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and uh quite honestly, if you talk about the way we've evolved, the way it sounds like both of us have come back to our face to an extent, um I I I I I I show my I put myself available to others for that, but I don't go out putting it in people's face.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Um but um I think it's something that uh I've definitely grown into.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh and I realized that my whole life I put first, like I talked about that chief who wanted me to promote, I realized I was putting more into my job than my family.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: And then if and then five, ten years later after that, I realized that I'd set goals for myself, whether it's to be a good fireman and do this, this, and this, and become better and get promoted.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: And then it's like, oh man, my family's lacking, so let's let's make some goals for myself to be a better husband and father.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Do that, get better, get better, get better.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: And then I came to a point in my life, it's like whenever I ever set goals for my faith and what I believe in.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: What's what's what's supposed to be the number one thing, what kind of goals is it?
18:24
SPEAKER_01: It's like I got none.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: I look through my phone, there's nothing.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: Not a thing.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: There's no gold.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: There there was nothing.
18:31
SPEAKER_01: So I actually now set goals for myself, um uh that are faith based to be a better uh follower of Christ.
18:40
SPEAKER_01: And uh I've never done that before.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: I realize wow, if I I go around saying that this is important to me, but yet I don't put as much effort into being a good fireman or a good husband, uh a good dad as I do as to being a follower of Christ, it's like what value is it really?
18:57
SPEAKER_01: How how serious am I?
18:59
SPEAKER_04: So that's awesome.
19:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I enjoy hearing that.
19:05
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, that's that's great.
19:08
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's uh something that uh again, you don't want to push it on everybody like you said, but I'm not afraid to talk about it either.
19:16
SPEAKER_04: I mean, let's just make this go out to the masses.
19:18
SPEAKER_04: I don't care, we'll talk about I'll talk about it to anybody.
19:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
19:20
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's kind of nice when you get those conversations in the firehouse too.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
19:23
SPEAKER_01: And it's hard because you just don't want people to be skeptical of you, because I'm not the best example of a firefighter, best example of a husband, best example of a father, or a Christian.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: So uh you know you're gonna draw criticism when you bring that up.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's part of what made makes us, especially as a younger man, as a younger person in the fire service, maybe kind of suppress that or hold that down, right or wrong.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Um so um it is what it is, actually.
19:54
SPEAKER_04: Man, we're we're used to that for the most part.
19:56
SPEAKER_04: We get criticized.
19:58
SPEAKER_04: If you're gonna do this, you're gonna start teaching, you're gonna do podcasts, you're gonna draw the criticism for everything you do.
20:03
SPEAKER_04: And you know what?
20:04
SPEAKER_04: It's it's uh it's those who persevere through that yeah, criticism and stuff that are that are making the changes in the fire service.
20:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
20:12
SPEAKER_04: You know, I look back to slow and consistent moves.
20:14
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
20:15
SPEAKER_04: And I look back to just watching the example that guys like yourself set for me.
20:20
SPEAKER_04: And I was on the job for 15 years before I met you.
20:23
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I look at guys like you, and I just like, man, I want I want to be like those guys.
20:28
SPEAKER_04: Like they they know their stuff.
20:29
SPEAKER_04: I mean, they're not afraid to train uh to train or do whatever.
20:32
SPEAKER_04: And uh I gotta be honest with you, it changed my whole perspective on my career.
20:36
SPEAKER_04: So thank you to you and your brother Matt, especially.
20:39
SPEAKER_04: Uh uh, huge influences for me as well.
20:42
SPEAKER_04: And uh it's just that's why I wanted to make sure you were the first one that we brought in here for this for this podcast.
20:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, absolutely.
20:48
SPEAKER_04: And you know, you are one of the primary plank holders of this business, so I guess you kind of deserve that.
20:57
SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, um, we kind of started going down this road a minute ago, and uh so my next question would be what were their like early wins or losses that uh really shaped your perspective on leadership and and and accountability?
21:11
SPEAKER_04: Um, was there a specific uh type of incident where you realized the training wasn't really what was connecting with uh the reality of the fire service?
21:21
SPEAKER_01: Um I struggled.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh uh making captain was just like seven years on the job, and then and then my dad traded me a spot and I got I got put into a busy company.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh a lot of those guys bit off, a few of them stayed.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: Um I've always had trouble getting people of like mind that wanted to train and do stuff um to come to the companies that I was in charge of.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: But I I kept my head down.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: I knew that um I knew I knew that I had to train.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: I knew that I needed to learn, I knew that I hadn't had much time going to fires in town.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: So um I moved that direction and I stayed consistent with my desire uh to put in the effort for training.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: I think after uh we got hooked up with brotherhood instructors, it's a whole group of good firemen um that had a company and we started teaching with them.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: I I think I saw the value uh leading up to that and the effort that needed to be put into realistic training.
22:26
SPEAKER_01: Um if training's not realistic, if you're not pushing guys beyond the norm, um you're not creating that much of a change.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: You're not you you're not making a lasting impact on their career and and their habits and and and how how they're going to react on the fire ground.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: So uh that's why you and me with with it with O Burn it's like we we spend a lot of time put a lot of effort into making uh props uh or whatever we're doing as realistic as possible um to make a lasting impact so that you know when guys leave a class that we teach or whether it was on a company level you know that they have they have the confidence that okay I'm ready for this you know I can handle this.
23:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah absolutely and you know there's there's a lot of people out there doing uh the props and stuff now like I just saw the other day uh that company that's making the the black smoke for um yeah fire training that's awesome something that's been needed in the fire service forever I mean wow what a what a huge change and I can't wait to get an opportunity to to train in that yeah and search is a big thing teaching search there's a lot of talk about there's search culture uh victim risk uh rescue survey all that stuff and uh I see a lot of guys dogging each other about search training and tactics and how they do it but it's just so difficult to teach um because in in a real fire a a search every single room is going to be searched differently because every single the conditions of each room is going to be totally different so that makes it very hard to create a realistic training scenario so it's almost like it's like okay we're gonna train this method here and then okay let's do it again now we're gonna train this method you know one method we're on our we're on our hands and knees with zero visibility a camera only now we're on our hands and knees with a little visibility now we're on our feet because I can see my feet and I can move faster through this structure with a flashlight and I don't even need a tick.
24:24
SPEAKER_01: It's just so so ever changing as you move through a structure so how do you replicate that it seems like we either fill house up completely with smoke or no smoke or or zero visibility or visibility.
24:36
SPEAKER_04: It's very hard to that to teach that confidently and create an environment like that but uh we're getting better at it we're finding more ways of doing that absolutely yeah I agree um and not to mention that when you're doing a training you also have the keyboard commandos that are gonna do it yeah which whatever that's that's that's I find it comical actually uh from time to time to read some of those and I don't really get involved in a lot of social media stuff and until recently but uh um that's one of the things I just kick back and like I watch these other training companies or something like that and somebody may have a comment and just kind of drives me up a wall because I'm like oh that's weird because you're you're dogging everything you're doing but I don't see a single thing on the internet that you're doing to improve the fire service.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: So early in my career you had asked about the training aspect uh I really just I usually try to I I think when it comes to training and getting a company the buy-in on training I you have to set expectations so therefore if I knew I had a big training opportunity next shift I would tell the guys the shift before you set that expectation ahead of time you have much better chance of getting buy-in and then if we didn't have something planned that's why every morning I'd want guys to come in the second their foot crosses the threshold to have their personal gear on the rig ready to go then have coffee talk with the other shift we can go back check the ray out together but right after that guess what we need to sit down because you know I always had my Chad daily agenda I had stuff I wanted to do but it probably didn't take into account that um you're having some struggle in life um and maybe there's a few things you need to handle that are really important otherwise you know you're not gonna be able to function tomorrow when you leave and have to pick up two kids and get your wife to work and you got one car that's broke down and your mom's in a nursing home or whatever.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: I didn't account for several years other people um other people's lives and what they may have going on and how I need to accommodate that as as as a leader as their captain as someone who has kind of control over the day.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: So besides setting an expectation to shift before we would always meet that morning after the rig was checked out after we met with the other shift and just touch base with everybody say hey what do you all got going on?
26:56
SPEAKER_01: Make sure and make sure everyone's good make sure everyone's mentally present uh if someone's not noted we all got him we got you today we'll take care of this and and be willing to be flexible I really wanted to do this had an opportunity to do this I wanted to check this off my list but you know what uh Rusty's really needing to get this done so we're all going to do this this and this and change it up so uh once I learned that um that that helped me a lot um but in general uh I usually as a company officer before technical rescues came around it's like as long as no one else has anything going on if you can give me till noon walk through the door hit the ground running give me till noon I can give you the rest of the day and you know what the rest of the day still kind of ours uh we're probably gonna work out together we're probably gonna eat dinner together we're or uh we're probably gonna maybe watch some fire video or something nerd out on something after dinner and learn and grow from that so so it's not that learning is done but um you know I accomplished what I needed by noon and then you can plan the rest of the day you guys plan the rest of the day and I'll just be present as a company officer.
28:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah and speaking from personal experience of you and I have had this conversation on several hours of driving to different classes and stuff where you kind of taught me that lesson I I was able to apply that early in my career as a as a as a captain at the time and uh man that that it really works just being able to tell the guys hey this is what I got planned for next shift and you know what uh just give me from eight to noon the rest of the day is yours and I would always throw in there as like I tell you eight to noon sometimes it may only be an hour sometimes it may on occasion be all day long you know depending on what we have the opportunity to do.
28:40
SPEAKER_04: But that man that was some of the best advice you ever gave me as a young captain.
28:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah um so again I appreciate that as well and then the the other thing I'm reflecting on as you're talking about it is yeah the the just checking in on your guys how they're doing mentally before you throw the gauntlet at them.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'll never forget when we began technical rescues that's the eight person company we ride with six and uh when I mentor other people I would tell them that tell them that it's like that's six guys that's so besides me that's five other people on shift a day um I would attempt to try to spend 20 30 minutes with each person face to face wherever it happened you know in the station on a scene wherever happens it happens but try to get 20 30 minutes but you start adding that time up 30 minutes per person for five people you're talking about two or three hours of your day and we're already you know doing all these other things though that that's a big commitment it's a that's a big try so you know you may not accomplish it but that I think that should be the goal.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: That was always my goal um and it it it I may catch someone you know at 10 30 at night sitting in the bay by themselves and it's like there's my opportunity go sit down next to them and uh there's nothing and if if people know me you know I'm horrible with names and and and remembering remembering names and whatnot because my mind is usually going a million different ways when I back to the AGHD as yeah back to that but there's nothing nothing better than you knowing the personal facts about the guys you work with and your employees and they're more than employees you know um so you know when when a guy walks through the door and he's like hey how was that soccer game they're gonna double look at you like oh you really listened you really knew my son had a soccer game or we did or we we went out of town or we went to the lake um uh it means something to know that you're invested in and who they are and and invested in their life and their well-being.
30:38
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely and then you know whether we want to met it or not when somebody checks in on us like that and makes it personal that uh right no matter how big our ego is and we're both neither one of us are really small guys and right still hit you in the heart in the right spot.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: So that's it does it does and and uh that shifted my focus from a very young captain to I just wanted to have this badass company that was knocking down doors and you know making grabs putting out fires to okay to have that company we got to have a relationship we got to have relationships that that mean something not just a a boss and a firefighter it's like uh to work together that well you got to have relationships real relationships so you're creating friendships yeah um there may be a hierarchy in place but you're still creating friendships absolutely and to be honest I mean that's something that uh you've been doing ever since uh I I got on with like you said mentioned earlier with brotherhood and then we uh then uh O'Burn came along and that's something that you guys have fostered the entire time not just uh our bosses but our our friends as well on a on a very personal level um so we kind of hit on a little bit uh as far as like the mental side of the job but uh we always talk about the physical side of the job and just recently I would say probably around the 2016 area which if I remember right is about the time the uh international came on with the Behavioral Health Institute uh that's when it really became not so much stigmatized in the fire service as far as mental health and all that stuff but uh uh uh how how have you personally handled the the the the noise of the job you know those things that tend to bother us from time to time you I mean like you ever dealt with what you think maybe p PTSD or just anxieties from the job stuff like that um me in my safety officer role sometimes I get exposed to guys who are struggling with stuff quite a bit or people come to me things come my way I have several friends who have uh reached out and sought some type of counseling or help we have several programs where I work um most jobs do the IFF has been really good at promoting different programs but um but yeah uh I have seen it it is real um you know as a young man I may not have bought into it that much but now now that I'm older I see that it's a real thing.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: Some of my friends have told me I need to go to one of these programs uh just because and they said that because they've been through it and they're like the value it gives to help you digest and understand understand things.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: They said you have a lot of stuff packed up and I think what I'm starting to see after 35 years and approaching retirement is that a lot of that stuff unpacks on guys when they retire.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: Like um there's there's some there's some names that we'll probably get on this podcast.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: We'll interview and we'll talk to them about it and they can explain what they've gone through.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: But I I think we can't I think we need to and can do better with our guys with an exit program uh with support after they leave I think some of that stuff tends to get unboxed.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: My dad always uh he had the shoebox talk and then I went and listened to uh another a mental health expert who runs one of our programs in Kans City the Valiant program uh that he offers to Kans City employee people all around the metro uh and I've heard a lot of people do really good through his program we got other EAP programs and whatnot also but anyway I go to I and listen to him and he's like and and he's preaching stop putting stop putting things in boxes and stacking it up against the wall well that goes completely against what my dad said my dad would actually when you showed up on his company and I did this give you a shoebox and it's like I don't care what's happening in your life I don't care what's going on I need you here in present today this is the best job in the world we're gonna go kick down some doors put out some fire it's gonna be a blast so I just need you to be here for 24 hours so put all your problems in this box put underneath your damn bed tomorrow morning because you can't change anything today so I I I think the message he sent there was some truth to it but you know I mean we need to take it within reason but it's like we can't fix anything in your life today while you're at the station for 24 hours.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: So you know what he could have added today if you don't need my help then put that shit away underneath your bed I don't want to hear about it see about it I don't want to I don't even want you acting like it's a problem I need you here now and then tomorrow morning you can get that box out pick up your problems head out the door and go take care of your business that's kind of where he's going but then I listen to this other mental health he's like stop putting things in boxes I'm like I got lots of fucking boxes but yeah it is what it is we all deal with stuff differently yeah um and uh so I encourage people to talk about it and to go get help early and maybe it's something that that I I think the stigma of go get help you know maybe it's something that we just start with people from day one.
35:32
SPEAKER_01: I think for one it go back to hiring the right people that they know what they're getting into and they're okay with this they think they're gonna be okay with it that would help uh but then just start from day one.
35:43
SPEAKER_01: If you look at all the people claiming PTSD uh and the problem that's creating for fire departments for employment for pension systems this and this all these different um challenges that it gives us have people go off the job before they get their time with PTSD and then try and take care of those people and a lot of them are very real very real problems.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: So it's like how can we manage that?
36:10
SPEAKER_01: I I think if you look at the military and stuff I believe they start doing uh mental psychological evaluations before they even hire you now.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: So they have a baseline to help keep tabs on you um and help you if you start having issues.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: And so anyway eventually uh we tend to fire what uh follow in the fire service uh several years behind what the military does but uh eventually I think we move into something like that.
36:36
SPEAKER_01: It's like you know may not that you're gonna force counseling on someone or whatever you want to call it, but some type of check-in, some type of more structured um required help to make sure you're processing this job properly I think could help because uh uh last thing we want to want to do I I've had too many people I've lost too many firemen on my job to what we're talking about.
37:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah that's it's very unfortunate and doesn't just uh affect them but it affects everybody around them.
37:09
SPEAKER_04: Right, right.
37:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah I mean including all of us and our families you know that may not even known the person but uh they they see us struggle through their their struggles as well.
37:19
SPEAKER_04: So yeah I I totally agree and I I uh I uh very grateful for the steps that uh the fire service is taking toward that though toward you know and in the military as well though I know they're it's slow and steady but I mean everything is I mean they didn't really start working on it until after you know Afghanistan and all that stuff yet so hopefully it gets better over time for the military and for us as well and and the police officers.
37:44
SPEAKER_04: Right.
37:45
SPEAKER_04: So no I appreciate your insight on that as well.
37:49
SPEAKER_04: So let's let's move on to like more of the career type stuff.
37:53
SPEAKER_04: You know at some point in a lot of people's career they reach that comfort zone you know where where they just feel like they're comfortable and they just kind of lay back and you know I don't need to train today or I already know this I already know that and I I think deep down uh we've all gone through that um that phase of just like I just don't feel like doing it or whatever like I already know how to do that.
38:15
SPEAKER_04: But um and the reality of it is is uh speaking from personal experiences there was times where I just didn't want to do it because I was uncomfortable and and afraid of looking silly if you will um but as far as that goes you know instead of just coaching along my question is uh why did you decide to to start O'Burn instead of taking that comfort road uh what was the the broken thing in the fire service that you saw that you might be able to fix so I think holistically as into going into a place of uncomfortableness I think that is something that when you're done doing that uh you should be looking at you know going to the retirement division and yeah you're you're really close to retiring if you're done taking those risks and those challenges.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I've recognized that early on uh and then as I grew through the fire service and uh I got in the tech rescue and I did Missouri Task Force one for 15 years got to go on deployments started teaching all the tech rescue stuff for years till the point I honestly just kind of got burnt out on it because you don't get to do that stuff very often.
39:26
SPEAKER_01: So then when I went to teach with uh Brotherhood instructor fellas um uh I realized oh wow so I've been doing this firefighting I've been teaching tech rescue and practicing it doing a little bit but I've been going through you know two or three fires a day and it's like I I saw the value in myself when I saw them guys teach um I saw the value in myself and what I had to add to what they were doing.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like I think I think I need to be doing this.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: I think I have something worth offering and and you know what a lot of it is is how I messed up how I failed because I didn't have someone teaching me this stuff.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: But I'm not afraid to I I I think humility and and instructing and teaching is huge and if you can't be humble in doing it uh you're you're not gonna draw a very big crowd.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Um so I'll take the criticism uh I'll tell you how many times I fell flat on my face I got no problem with that um so that's when I started teaching with them and and then when the time came that um that was going to kind of wind down and end and we had an opportunity to keep moving forward with that teaching all through the Midwest here uh I really didn't want it it's like it scared me it's like no no it's not me uh I remember talking with uh Jason Hubbleman he mentored me quite a bit back then um it's like nah uh why why don't you just take this here's all the instructors here's some trailers why don't you do that I don't want to do this that's too much and uh anyway uh but he really thank think thankful for him and his advice throughout my whole career on and off a few times um push it push me into yeah you can do this you should do this and uh what an honor that I got to use Tom Byrne's name to name our company after um someone who taught um with with Brotherhood for several years and uh was such a part of it and uh and died of job related cancer and we got to name the company after him so uh that alone made it all worthwhile but I think what we represent now I think we represent him well with our company so taking those risks is huge always putting yourself in a place of discomfort I remember when Isaac Fraser called me for his very first into the job he's like this is what I'm looking at doing bro he's like this is going to be the biggest event ever it's like it's gonna be so cool I'm like yeah I'm not that kind of cool guy Isaac like people don't like me here it's like I train too much and and and they say I micromanage and all this other stuff he's like no no you're you're the kind of guy we want it's like but I haven't done it before he's like you'll be fine see you on this date and he hangs up I was like well shit as and oh and he's like by the way it's sold out there's gonna be about 600 people I'm like 600 people I'm like I I mean I taught I teach 20 or 30 people at a time and what I'm really comfortable with is like three or four guys on a company level.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: So anyway I did that uh and accepted that and did that I kind of got pushed into it like some other things but I could have said no I could have backed out and I didn't um and I definitely grew from that so therefore I uh same thing with taking the safety officer role same thing with getting promoted to battalion chief that wasn't really what I wanted but uh it was the next step um to see if there was growth if there was a opportunity for my own growth there and uh and I'm always looking for the next step and uh and uh I think that's what we have to do in the fire service don't get stagnant don't don't get complacent don't get comfortable continue to put yourself and say yes to those opportunities I've had a few times I got to speak at a few other things recently and man that really it puts me in a place of uncomfortable so I don't care to do it.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't hate doing it I don't feel like I'm great at it um but if I get asked I feel like I feel like I have to and I think that's we should.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah you get asked to take a position of of res of responsibility or leadership or teaching or something I think you need to um step up and do it.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: It's an opportunity for growth.
43:29
SPEAKER_04: So I like it.
43:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah I like it.
43:35
SPEAKER_04: So I I think we'd be remiss if we didn't uh talk a little bit about Tom as well I know um I I obviously didn't have the opportunity to know Tom as well as you guys did.
43:47
SPEAKER_04: I had met him worked with him for a couple of years before he ended up dying of like you said job related j uh uh cancer.
43:54
SPEAKER_04: Um but let's just explore that a little bit let's just talk about Tom, who he was, the man he was the the type of work he did in the fire service, you know, the companies.
44:03
SPEAKER_04: I know he retired as a battalion chief, but by all means, take us there.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh I learned a lot from him.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: Um we didn't have a great relationship starting out.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: He was uh take Tom back to a very young man.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: He was very motivated and driven like I was that's right.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: And I was another motivated driven person and we our crafts did our paths didn't cross.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: So maybe there was the friction just alone.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm not alone.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh but um but I got to see myself grow.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: I got to see Tom grow and by the end of our career um we ended up in the same boat teaching, doing the same thing with an incredible amount of respect for one another.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh that took humility on both parts and growth.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: And uh it it was just a unique situation to be in that you know we had some conflict early on and and uh and to be able to grow out of that through that and then end up with um doing what we did for the fire service being able to pay it back and and do the teaching and instructing that we did.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: He's well well respected by everyone.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: I got to see him along with myself and I emulated some of the things he did.
45:16
SPEAKER_01: You know it you know we all do we all grow and and we all see opportunity for growth within our s within ourselves.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: And uh I saw him go through some struggles especially as battalion chief.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: And I got to see how he handled that, how he grew from that and how he learned from that and reapplied that to his next situation or issue or problem that he faced.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: I also had the benefit of seeing Tom Byrne work with um another line of duty death that I have a lot of respect for uh John Tibetan him and uh Tom was John Tibetan's number one captain.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: John Tibetan as 106 when he he leave out to go to a fire I would drive him oftentimes back then a firefighter could drive a chief so one of Chase's battalion chief okay yeah and uh so uh every fire that John Tibetan left on that was a working fire he called for it didn't matter where what what apparatus Tom was on they worked the same shift but back then it was Pumper 29 but he would call for that he'd call for that apparatus basically he's calling for Tom Byrne and uh by name almost uh on every call.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: So uh but to see the two of them work together um I see why they did that and and the value they had in each other the trust they put in one another and they were always on the same page uh to be able to see how uh um the uh Chief Tibetan would use Tom Byrne to rally captains together to accomplish a task um he'd blow the whistle pull everyone out put Tom in charge get all the captains together regroup make a plan and then you know Chief Tibetan would say you got two minutes and uh because Tom had rallied everyone together put together a plan.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: So anyway it was very it was very cool the things I've learned from Tom Byrne.
47:12
SPEAKER_01: That's why we named the company after him that's why we had so much respect for him um uh I could just think of so many lessons I've learned from him him and uh also uh Tibetan and others but uh Tom would uh I remember uh one of our firefighters uh uh got burnt severely bad uh um he made it back on the job had a successful career uh Chris joyner um but uh Tom Byrne was the chief of that I wasn't at that I was in church with joyner's family that morning that was difficult uh when that happened um but Tom that fire what Tom learned was if a fire is unpredictable he's not afraid to pull everyone out at the point we search all survival places that we can possibly get to pull everyone out and then crack every window in the building uh and take a fire from what he thought what he would say is unpredictable by ventilating everywhere I can and letting that fire do what it's gonna do.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: He's like I now have something that's more predictable based off my collection of experiences of however many years he had at the time or I have he's like I I just put that into something that's much more predictable.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm okay sending you guys in there because he never wanted to see an another firefighter get drug out of a fire like he did that day.
48:34
SPEAKER_01: And that impacted him dramatically the whole rest of his career.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: And he would let guys take a certain amount of risk and if he had to he would pull them out just like John Deveton would I'd see him get his captain together make another plan uh he'd ventilate where needed and take something that he thought was unpredictable to something that he anticipated as much more predictable something that he he could deal with in a much safer fashion even though it's still a high risk situation um and deal with it.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: So anyway, standing back watching those guys I learned so much over the years.
49:04
SPEAKER_04: Yeah that's uh and you know talking to Tom and you know he was a salty ghetto fireman for years and the fact that uh you know even as a battalion chief still learn those lessons that's just a that's and and to be able to see somebody in that position learn those lessons like you did yeah that's just a what a golden opportunity.
49:21
SPEAKER_04: I mean in order to I mean that fosters your growth as a young fireman way you know from the early days if you get to experience that and actually get to see that happen.
49:31
SPEAKER_04: So that's that's pretty neat to hear.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely so now so after Tom died um his daughter started Colleen yep Colleen started uh uh burnout cancer uh can you tell us a little bit about that and just throw her some some sweat absolutely absolutely she she immediately picked up on that she wasn't quite another year or two left in high school um but she created uh I think it's a foundation she had a lot of help from her mom and uh Mike Cashin and a lot of other people um supporter still supporter that it's still to this day she's still still working that uh nonprofit or that foundation uh burnout cancer so she put that together and I don't have the numbers and stuff but I know she held a lot of fundraisers raised a lot of money um I believe she got extractors um back then we didn't have extractors or the heavy duty washing machines for our turnout gear uh we weren't washing as much as we should he died from cancer uh job related cancer so uh one of the huge contributing factors for our gear and um you know of course getting on in the early 90s we came up through a time when we didn't wash our gear that much we came up with a time we came up during a time we only had one set of gear for a long time so so we're evolving we're changing we're getting better we hadn't got extractors at every station we only had one like maybe at every battalion headquarters if that so she was very instrumental in raising the money and getting that done and getting uh extractors at all of our stations and not just Kansas City Missouri I I'm pretty sure she stepped outside uh two other departments all around also yeah that's providing awareness and providing the extractors and and uh I'm not sure but she's probably stepped into other uh that they have probably stepped into other areas that help with firefighter cancer and awareness and whatnot too.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: I know uh um I think they usually meet with our academy and uh bring an awareness up there with new recruits uh of how how that they came about and uh still have uh one or two events a year.
51:41
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah because uh I remember we were doing stuff to help her out with at the uh oh I'm sorry Hogjaw was I right yeah chicken and pickle yeah event yeah yeah yeah um doing a forcible entry type deal there oh yeah and uh uh that was to raise money for her you're right yeah yeah yeah well we brought the brass sky trailer in to the outlaw and uh Silvio and Hogjaw prevented food and we did uh all day forcible entry and through the lock and uh uh that was the support that yeah and I I think that's one of the coolest things about it is just watching her example um as young as she was to start that foundation as a 501c3 if I remember right which uh and then uh the fact that guys like you and Dave um and Dave's one of the owners of O'Burn as well uh to take O'Burn and put it into a not-for-profit too I don't think a lot of people understand that uh O'Burn is a not-for-profit and we're not really doing this for the money I mean no we're not doing it we never were doing it for the money or for the notoriety and I still tell people now um other training entities around the country uh O'Burn we now have five trailers with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and and we don't care whose name goes on what if you need this trailer and you want to put on a class and we can get it to you uh we'll bring it to you you can have our stuff you can use it you know yeah we're gonna send a guy with it or something but uh it can be your class uh we just want to get the training the right real instructors who have done it in real time um in front of firemen who are wanting to learn what and and I I don't want firemen wasting their time I don't want them going to some class that they're not impressed with that that they can see they can see through this guy and say oh yeah okay this guy's teaching how to make a grab but he's never made a grab or this guy's teaching how to force doors but he's only but he's never forced doors in real life it's like we want to get without arrogance we want to get the right guys in front of the right people when people want to when people want to learn I want it to be a good experience.
53:42
SPEAKER_01: I want it to be real I want them to walk away saying holy shit that guy knows what he's talking about I just learned some real life shit um that's what we want with O'Burn and we doesn't care I don't care if there's an O'Burn planet uh flag flying or or on somebody's shirt it could it could be anything um so and when we move through different classes you know we try to be respectful of other people but you know if it's not being taught here and it's not feasible to to get this person with ladders or this person with elevator or this person with tick I'm like teach us let us know how can we do better uh if we can afford it we'll pay to bring you and let put your name on the class so you make us better but you can't be here in the Midwest where we're driving to teaching all these classes so how how make us better you know and and and let us do the best we can and until they can get to you if if if you're better than and and there's people much better at teaching some things than we are as like I am not your engine and nozzle guy.
54:41
SPEAKER_01: Now we have people with O'Burn who are but we haven't cultivated those classes real heavily uh because there's so many other people out there doing it so well that are local.
54:51
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna let let those people do that.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: It's like why step on their toes let them let them let them have it.
54:57
SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to everything else we have and our instructors it's like it's it's not about the company or anything and that's why we made it a nonprofit so that we can uh keep our money reinvest in the fire service reinvest in more props uh you'll probably see something on one of our uh social media platforms uh we're gonna unbox some props we got from another company share that um and uh and you know if it's good prop promote them um so we're all about supporting other people out there doing the right thing it's not about my name or a company name absolutely you know and it goes back to the whole we didn't know all this before we got taught you know uh we had to be taught by somebody and it'd be just completely silly for us to take credit for any of the stuff that uh we've come across over the years.
55:42
SPEAKER_04: I I think back to even the brotherhood days you know those are the guys that uh started inspiring me to train with forcible entry a halligan bar the points of a halligan bar I remember back especially and I don't mean to speak for the whole Midwest but a majority of the Midwest I wouldn't say used halligan bars because we didn't understand how they're supposed to be our PowerPoint is still the Brotherhood power instructor's PowerPoint.
56:04
SPEAKER_01: I mean it's been changed a whole lot but it still started from that our thermal imaging um class is uh Sam Hittle he came here out of Witch Tall fire yeah out of Wichita he came here taught it like and and again I I looked at that I was like man I've been using a camera for 10 years I have a whole lot of personal experience to put behind that I didn't know how to deliver it and that's what happens a lot is you may have the experience for ladders or for this or that you just don't know the best way to deliver it um to where it can be received by someone new so um we went to Sam went out watched him deliver that class again to I think one of his academies and like Sam's an open book like we are he's like can we have the PowerPoint I really want to remake it right now.
56:46
SPEAKER_04: Well we're using the same PowerPoint now it's been like totally there's probably 20% of the original left but um anyway it was with his permission he's like by all means take it and uh and uh we we you know that's that's how we evolved as a fire service nobody owns this stuff everyone everyone's done it and is doing it so and you know and I I'll go back to you're right and in in my opinion the uh the companies or instructors that uh are the are the best that I've personally have seen or experienced are the ones that are willing to share all their information just like you said Sam and the the brotherhood guys and and uh even inside training with Andy Starnes you know that guy's an open book he'll give you we've added tons of his stuff and yeah he will he will pick up the phone for almost he'll put up his Google drive for anybody you know I mean that's uh that's what it's all about uh and I agree with you I think at any point in your career that you think this stuff is yours and it's only yours to be shared I just think that's just a ridiculous attitude I know we've ran across that before with other people not wanting to share their material and stuff like that but that just defeats the whole purpose of and wait five years and guess what the material is not going to be relevant.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: Right exactly whether it's ladders or cameras or elevators or any of this stuff is like it's going it's complete it's it's evolving nonstop.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely somebody's got to keep up with it.
58:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah and and and and that's our that's you as an owner of O'Burn.
58:07
SPEAKER_01: Our goal is not to have someone say oh Burn fireground that's Chad Daly Rusty craft no no no uh you know uh 15 20 years from now our goal is that it's still O'Burn.
58:19
SPEAKER_01: It's like oh yeah O'Burn that's always been some good dudes um teaching real stuff um it's not about one individual or two or three individuals uh uh our goal just it's the same viewpoint I had as my as a fire department and as a company is that oh O'Burn doesn't need you or me um O'Burn will function that's why we have 20 or 30 different instructors on there and they may all only teach once every year or so um but we got them there and and uh and and they will come teach and they're good people who are know what who know what they're talking about.
58:55
SPEAKER_04: And and and that's why we also reach out uh we've recently you know this uh I've put three or four younger guys who may only have a few years on but guess what you know they have a few years on somewhere else they've been to a bunch of classes uh one of the guys I'm thinking about just came back from the firemanship conference on his own department wasn't supporting that it's been a week out there um so we put on some young guys why that's so we have longevity um because you I'm gonna leave and shortly after that you're probably gonna retire and uh and so we got some young guys to move up and hopefully uh that's also why we made it a nonprofit O'Burn will be around for a long time absolutely and that's that's that's key right there and then just that longevity that uh the the company plan legacy the company's legacy and not ours and that's what it's that's what I I agree completely that's what it's all about and we're doing a good job of um in my opinion of bringing in some of those younger guys to to pass it on yeah because we I know we the the five of us that are owners of the company have talked about that in the past of how do we how do we continue this on because we don't want it our personal goal um is for it not to end when we're done yeah I would like to see this go on way beyond my time.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_04: And I think uh I think the steps we're taking are are leading us that way.
1:00:13
SPEAKER_04: Somebody's got to make sandwiches mom's getting tired of it exactly yeah exactly all right so you talked about the things changing in the fire service that's one of the questions I had for you as well um where do you see uh and again this is us you know being wide open and not trying to keep anything to ourselves where do you see the progression of uh whether it be like electronics or drones or something like that the growth of the fire service happening uh that's a good question based off my personal life my experience my department my department um it's amazing uh we have we have a new chief director Chief Buckley now and before that uh Ross Grunderson who retired just not long ago and holy cow it I've seen so much growth in our department and some people have blinders on and kind of don't see it they get stuck on the negatives but it's there's been so much growth when it comes to training and being open minded um uh switching we switched to the low you know solid smooth or and 50 psi nozzle packages and all that went through all that recently and yeah there's some resistance and whatnot but anyway um uh we now uh on our department uh we got the robot it's called thermite the big robot that throws water and you can send it into a um you know um a big building or up to a lumber yard fire or a trash fire or something and not have to a gas fire not have to have employees standing up there I I know we've always done it this way and we could have guys up there but there are sometimes like why would you want that exposure?
1:01:56
SPEAKER_01: Why do that exposure if we don't need to we're not saving lives like I said all my safety things I think about when safety is not changing uh anything pertaining to saving saving life and really property to an extent a lot of times but yeah so we got the thermite uh and then now I think we our drone program um the drones we have uh we just had the FIFA hosted FIFA here in Kansas City that was a huge event all the agencies were coming to us for help um we have one of the top drone programs in the world uh uh absolutely in the United States and KCFD's done that yes I it sometimes I wonder as I don't know how they did it but they got it done and and they drew a lot of criticism and hate uh any new technology is going to draw criticism any change in the fire service is going to draw hate and criticism so you gotta have a good plan know what you're doing is right keep your nose down and just move forward um otherwise you will make no progress but we have made such progress um with with the Kansas City Fire Department uh I feel like and I've got to be privy to that as a safety officer who gets to run every fire in our city and the use of drones I think is the single biggest thing we've done one of the single biggest things we've done um we have drones on top of uh four or five fire stations the station I work out of has two drones here before long that drone's gonna beat us to the scene every time it already does every now and then but those drones will launch and they're gonna be integrated with our CAD most likely so that we don't even have to call the drone company we have a division for drones now with some employees full time uh it's staffed all the time they can respond in a car but really they just sit at a you know another one of them can sit at a desk and launch these things and then have control of it from anywhere uh a laptop anywhere really um so it it's amazing though because now I have that feed in my car I have it on my phone um we can immediately see a structure before we even get there it's like holy holy cow we got people hanging out the out the back side as you're pulling up or before you get there or we have the roof already falling in or we have an exposure here or we have propane tank back here and you can see that before you have to park your car get out do a 360 if you get the 360 done before something else catches your eye and you got to mitigate that.
1:04:27
SPEAKER_01: So anyway uh drones I think are the biggest technology thing um that we were reluctant to get but now it's like yeah the there's so much value in that uh uh we had a search for a kid the other day uh ended up not ending well but um but they were very useful there we had a search just uh day before yesterday um we had a kid in a pond and we're able to use it keep eyes on him until our rescue got there and we're able to put hands on this kid get him out um um uh grass and weed fires the the track where they're going which way the wind's blowing blah blah blah blah is so many uses for them yeah it's incredible uh if you open your mind to how this can help you and especially once you get the infrastructure there so it's there right away.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_04: So even even uh uh like uh typically a lot of times we'll stage for an unconscious party you know independence avenue in prospect okay well that's probably you know uh drunk Charlie or whoever again pass out on the curb so we really need to or what if if somebody shot bleeding out and there's nobody around we can go save a life or we can go say Charlie move and get back in quarters um a drone will be there and could put potentially you know clear that scene uh much much faster sounds like a potential class in the making yeah yeah yeah I got guys for that yeah very good guys exactly and you know you you brought up earlier that we we have guys that can teach us stuff because not everybody was a rescue guy uh you know like my my department uh we don't specifically have a rescue rig that's Staff 24 7.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_04: We are part of the regional rescue.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_04: So that's how we got tied in with Kansas City and Olatha and KCK.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:06:07
SPEAKER_04: Um but yeah, I mean it's uh so we've got guys that can do that.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_04: In fact, we've had guys uh you talked about an engine nozzle class.
1:06:15
SPEAKER_04: We have had guys teach at winter fire school uh engine classes, and and the the reception of that was really good from the reviews that we got from the class.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, the one of the neat things about O'Burn that's that I found attractive as Brotherhood from the very beginning was it's not just instructors from Kansas City Fire, it's instructors from all over the country.
1:06:35
SPEAKER_01: All over the Midwest, yeah.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, well, especially the Midwest.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and from time to time all over the country, you know.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's uh, you know, back whenever take New York Mike.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_04: Right?
1:06:46
SPEAKER_04: One of the most humble guys you'll ever meet, but uh we we picked him out of a cornfield out of Iowa, right?
1:06:51
SPEAKER_04: Right.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_04: Uh retired from FDNY and just the information he has, and like I said, one of the most humble guys that you'll ever meet, uh, which we wouldn't expect that um here in the Midwest.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_04: Who could he work with?
1:07:02
SPEAKER_04: Uh some small job on the East Coast, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_01: New York.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_01: Uh the firefighter, the book of uh um Andy Fredericks.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Andy Fredericks.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_04: Um worked with the Gettin' Salty guys too.
1:07:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_04: Um out there when they're 288 and he was on Hazmat 1.
1:07:19
SPEAKER_04: Um, we'll get him one sometime, hopefully.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, like uh we just uh developed uh uh a ground ladder class that we're rolling out.
1:07:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um John Young's uh been very instrumental and gonna be the lead on that, but but we've reached out and we'll probably if we have the money, we'll we'll bring some of these other guys in who have been teaching it long before us.
1:07:41
SPEAKER_01: We're capable of it, but they know how to deliver it, they've done it.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_01: And John's already worked with Mike Torres.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if we can, we'll get Mike Torres in town.
1:07:49
SPEAKER_01: And uh I was gonna reach out to uh OJ, I don't know how I'll I'll butcher his last name, Kaluji or something.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how to say that.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, it seems like he's doing some really good ground ladder stuff.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_01: So we'll reach out to those guys, and if we can, we'll bring them in, and you know, hopefully they have the same open book um mindset as we do, and uh we all get better together.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_04: Absolutely, which is what it's all about.
1:08:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:08:13
SPEAKER_04: So uh kind of moving through the we've been at this for a little while now.
1:08:19
SPEAKER_04: I just kind of want to talk about uh, you know, we're both getting up there in age, getting close to that retirement time.
1:08:26
SPEAKER_04: So when it's all said and done, when you hang up the helmet for the last time, what do you kind of hope that uh your footprint to be on number one, the fire service, KCFD, and then uh even uh with O'Burn we kind of talked about already, but is there anything in particular that Chad Daly wants his footprint to be on?
1:08:44
SPEAKER_04: Well, in other words, what do you hope your legacy is?
1:08:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh that's a difficult one to take your take your pride out of it.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_04: Um that's the answer I expected you to give.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_01: So here's my answer.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh when my dad was dying, um, he was well known, everyone knew him on the job.
1:09:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, badass Bob.
1:09:09
SPEAKER_01: Um everyone wanted to fight fire with him.
1:09:11
SPEAKER_01: If they if you wanted someone with you, I don't yeah, uh no one could say enough about my dad.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_01: So uh, but then he's dying.
1:09:18
SPEAKER_01: And uh I was like, Dad, I just hope I can live up to your name and uh and and and be as good a fire fighter as you and the legacy that you left.
1:09:31
SPEAKER_01: And he looked at me, he's like, You don't get it, son.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_01: He's like, You are my legacy.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_01: So put a lot of time into digesting that and thinking about that.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, he took all the highlight off himself, walk through the doors of stations today, ask someone if they know who Bob Daly is.
1:09:52
SPEAKER_01: Bob Daly's gone, you know, 15 years from now.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_01: Go through a door-to-fire station, ask them who Chad Daly is.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_01: It it'll be close to fate.
1:10:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, everyone will be forgotten.
1:10:02
SPEAKER_01: So your impact is on the those that of others.
1:10:06
SPEAKER_01: I realized that several years ago.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_01: So my time is invested in real relationships and real building an actual relationship that I can influence someone and also pass on all whatever knowledge I've gained in 35 years from firefighting so that they can influence others.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_01: I call it, you've heard me say it, I call it a pyramid scheme.
1:10:28
SPEAKER_01: It's my it's my own little pyramid scheme.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
1:10:31
SPEAKER_01: It's worked.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_01: It's worked.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_01: You see the the training, um, the mindset that that I I I feel like it has been contagious.
1:10:40
SPEAKER_01: That I've influenced a small group of guys on a rescue company, and now they're out there promoting up, influencing a small group of guys, they're out there influencing a small group of guys, and guess what?
1:10:50
SPEAKER_01: We got a lot of people that are into the job now and they're not afraid to fucking say it.
1:10:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's uh so it's not about Chad Daly.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's I I gotta be honest, that's the exact answer I expected you to give, being the uh the humble person you are, which I I respect that and appreciate that very much.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_04: Um, and I I will tell you that's something that uh I've reflected on even through my own career, is like the early days with the brotherhood and then getting to know you guys and all that stuff.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_04: Just the change that not only have you guys made for me personally, but the fact that I was able to take that information and pass it along and then watch some of the younger guys in my job pass that information on.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_04: It's just that that is where the gratitude comes from.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_01: That's the legacy.
1:11:31
SPEAKER_04: It doesn't matter what I taught, it's it's so much fun watching these younger guys teach the things they learned that you learned from somebody else.
1:11:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:11:39
SPEAKER_04: And you just nailed it on the head.
1:11:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
1:11:43
SPEAKER_04: So is there anything else that uh you would uh like to say to our viewers or our hopefully uh future students and current students before we close this out?
1:11:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh no, j uh well, just uh the find your people, find your relationships, find your, if you want to call it mentors, people that you can fall back on to keep you in check holistically, uh whether it's are you being a good husband, a good dad, a good firefighter, if it's fa you know, if your faith is that in Christ, a good Christian, find someone to help keep you in check.
1:12:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, they tap you on the shoulder, hey, kind of you're calling kind of falling short here.
1:12:28
SPEAKER_01: Who's not not scared to be your friend?
1:12:31
SPEAKER_01: A good friend has got to t gotta tell you hard things sometimes.
1:12:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh otherwise they're not being a very good friend.
1:12:37
SPEAKER_01: So um a good friend's not gonna let you go screw around and do make bad decisions without being told you're making bad decisions, or you're failing, or you're letting your crew do this.
1:12:48
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh I've had to step up and do that.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_01: And it's awkward, it's hard to go tell I j I create this relationship with you, and then I gotta tell you, hey Russia, you're being a real dick, or you're you're failing.
1:13:02
SPEAKER_01: It's like you're letting your crew walk all over you, or or you know, you're stepping out on your wife, or whatever I see.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_01: It's like it's not easy um to do that, but you have to be willing to do that, um, and find your people who will do that for you, who will who will call you out and make you better.
1:13:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's what'll get you through the fire service.
1:13:23
SPEAKER_04: So well said, well said.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_04: Well, with that being said, Chad, again, I appreciate you uh showing up today and and doing this podcast.
1:13:34
SPEAKER_04: Um man, just thank you to everybody that's ever taken our classes and those that are you know in the future going to be looking at taking our classes.
1:13:41
SPEAKER_04: Um please check us out on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and X.
1:13:47
SPEAKER_04: Uh we've been putting a lot more footage out there like we used to.
1:13:50
SPEAKER_04: Uh, we're trying to get uh back on that and get everybody going and try to just pass along the information as best we can.
1:13:56
SPEAKER_04: Thanks for your time.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_01: What's X?
1:13:58
SPEAKER_04: Twitter.
1:13:59
SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_04: Told you he's getting older.
1:14:02
SPEAKER_04: But for that, thanks for coming out or to paying attention and watching, and uh, we'll see you next time.