Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 35 - Did Father Abraham Have Many Stars?

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Ep. 35 - Did Father Abraham Have Many Stars? · Martyr's Row

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  This week on Martyrs Row, Wales older than United
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  States? Is the song Father Abraham the Christian
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  hokey pokey? Did we find a new reason to hate
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  participation trophies? How Technicolor was Joseph's
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  dream coat? Does Revelation make more sense when
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  you're on a deserted island? Hey, Esau! Was that
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  soup worth it? Let's find out this week on Martyrs
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  Row! Three, two, one! Ptolemus and Lucius. Saints
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  Ptolemus and Lucius, godly men of Rome, suffered
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  in the days of Antoninus Pius. Ptolemus, having
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  converted a woman from the filth of idolatry
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  to the faith of Christ, was accused by her ungodly
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  husband and brought before Urbicus the judge.
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  When he confessed himself a Christian, he was
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  forthwith condemned to death. Seeing this, Lucius,
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  moved with holy zeal, reproved the unrighteous
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  sentence, saying that such a judgment was unworthy
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  of the Roman name. Then, Urbicus in anger said,
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  Thou also seemest to be one of them. To which
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  Lucius answered, I am. Whereupon he likewise
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  was led away to execution, and with joyful courage
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  laid down his life. Thus these faithful confessors
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  bore witness that truth needeth no defense, but
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  its own steadfast confession, and that the just
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  shall live though slain. Anno Domini, 165. Long
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  ago, before the world was frozen, when the sea
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  and the sky were still learning to be apart,
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  the whales could speak like people. They sang
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  songs that shaped the tides, and the people who
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  lived along the shore could understand their
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  words. Among them was the great bowhead, called
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  Arvik Cilia, the whale of the air spirit. He
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  was said to remember every song ever sung beneath
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  the waves, even those sung before humans were
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  born. Each spring, When the ice broke, the Inuit
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  hunters would hear his voice humming under the
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  flows, deep and slow. A sound that made the water
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  tremble, the elders said, that is Arvik Sila.
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  Teaching the sea to breathe again. One year,
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  when the people forgot the old songs, too busy
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  hunting, too proud to thank the sea, the ocean
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  grew silent. No seals came, no fish rose. The
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  shamans fasted and called out, but the wind only
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  whispered, you have forgotten. So one young woman
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  named Nanukaktet went along to the water's edge
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  and sang the oldest lullaby she knew, the one
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  her grandmother had sung about the stars sleeping
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  in the deep. From beneath the ice, the sea began
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  to glow. And the great bowhead rose through it,
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  slowly, like a mountain remembering how to move.
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  He looked at her with one great eye, older than
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  the moon, and said, The world is held together
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  by remembering. When you sing, the sea remembers
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  who it is. Then he turned and swam away, his
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  tail marking a spiral in the dark water, a path
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  that the constellations followed that night.
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  The hunters returned to find the sea alive again.
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  And ever since, the Inuits say that the bowhead
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  whale still carries those songs. The memory of
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  when the world and the ocean first learned to
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  listen to each other. Hey Paul. Hey Stephen.
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  It is good to be back on martyr's row. Oh, yeah.
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  Oh, yeah So, uh That's pretty great bowhead the
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  great bowhead. That's a cool story. I like that.
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  Isn't that cool? So the bowhead whale It can
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  live well over 200 years old yeah, so that story
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  is It's a telling hmm of a tradition that the
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  Inuit people have around the bowhead whale. That's
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  cool. And the bowhead whale is, like I said,
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  it can live well over 200 years with a few confirmed
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  individuals estimated at closer to 270 years
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  old. Really? Making them the longest lived mammals
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  known. Wow. Now... Can you, okay, so 270, right?
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  Yeah. Let me do this math. It's the year 225.
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  Yep. And if I minus 270, that puts us at 1755.
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  So there's a whale that was alive in the late
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  1700s. Wow. Or in the mid to late 1700s. That
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  lived all the way up until the 2000s. That's
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  crazy. Isn't that insane? That means that there
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  is potentially a whale that is or was as old
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  as America Yeah, one whale. It means like one
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  pot of missing. Huh. They're using candles then
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  he came back He's like electricity. What the
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  those candles look weird. We're all those kites
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  doing this guy. Is that crazy though? That's
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  interesting. So not only are whales I believe
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  whales Are the largest mammal on earth? Yeah,
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  I had hoped there's not one bigger. Oh, we don't
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  know That's true, actually, we haven't gone far
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  enough down. But they are also the oldest, these
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  particular ones, which is kind of crazy. That's
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  so cool. You might ask, how do you know that?
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  Yeah. Scientists discovered this partly by finding
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  old harpoon tips from the 1800s, embedded in
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  the living whales. Really? Yep. And then later
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  confirmed it by analyzing amino acids in their
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  eye lenses. which accumulate predictable chemical
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  changes over time, like tree rings for eyeballs.
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  Really? That sounds insane. Like tree rings for
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  eyeballs. That's a product you can sell. It's
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  like tree rings for your eyeballs. Come on. Amino
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  acids. Take them. Take them. Link in the description
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  below. So they think that the reason why they
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  live this long... is because they live in freezing
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  water, so their metabolism slows down. Oh, interesting.
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  It reduces their cellular wear and oxidative
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  stress. Bowheads have special genes for DNA repair,
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  cancer resistance, and cell regeneration that
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  work far more efficiently than in humans. Unless
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  you take a cold shower every morning. True. So
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  cold is good for you. They move slowly, they
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  eat krill and plankton, and don't have many natural
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  enemies, once fully grown. So their lives are
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  long, steady, and stressed light. They're so
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  big, who's gonna make that? Well, so that's the
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  thing. They grow up to 60 feet, and they weigh
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  75 to 100 tons. 75 to 100 tons! A ton is 2 ,000
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  pounds. That's crazy. So 100 tons is... 200 ,000
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  pounds? That's crazy. It's a big boy. It's a
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  lot of candles. 200 ,000 pounds. Oh, that's why
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  you said candles. Whale blubber. Can you imagine
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  seeing a 200 ,000 pound whale that's 60 feet
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  long and 200 years old? He just pops up. But
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  you it takes forever so you're like I think there's
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  something coming a Week later, yeah We've been
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  stuck on this island for a while Yeah, it's a
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  good thing they live so long so it takes them
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  forever to get anywhere. Yeah the so in Inuit
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  tradition bowhead whales are sometimes seen as
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  ancient spirits or elders Living links between
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  generations because a whale swimming today might
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  have been alive before electricity or photography
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  existed Isn't that insane? It's it's interesting
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  because it is kind of like that They kind of
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  represent like that sage. Yes Where it's like,
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  yeah, if you know someone who's like 90 years
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  old, you're like, all right telling about the
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  Great Depression Yeah, and it's like that's just
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  cool. Yeah, but it's like yeah, it's kind of
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  a portal into like a bygone age. Yeah. Yeah,
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  it's also like this, this idea that I like, like
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  looking back at like it, Inuit culture and like
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  how they look at these things and they see. they
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  see that there is something more going on than
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  the lifespan of themselves. Americans really
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  don't do that very well, but a lot of ancient
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  cultures do that well. They see this tie between
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  one generation to the next and these. that there's
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  more going on in the celestial spaces and in
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  the waters and in the sands of the earth, right?
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  So like you see all of that kinda happening and
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  that's where they get that, which makes sense
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  because like you're a generation that you never
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  met would have been like the whales alive for
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  both, right? So if you never meet your great
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  grandparents, the whale did. So in a way it's
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  like meeting your grandparents, great grandparents.
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  Yeah, that's why they have that story about they're
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  the keepers of the songs. Yeah, that's cool.
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  Because they remind us of the songs we forget
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  from past generations. Yeah. And the songs to
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  them would be stories of culture and stories
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  of like their history. It's so cool. So it's
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  kind of cool, right? I like that a lot. Yeah,
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  so look that up. Over 200 year old, 200 ,000
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  pound Yeah, big ol' boy. Those things exist.
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  It's so crazy to think about. I know. And they're
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  just out there, like there's more than two of
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  them. Yeah. Well, I was just I was just at the
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  Animal Kingdom and hippos are crazy. Yes. So
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  like they have this space there at the Animal
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  Kingdom where. When those things run. You know
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  what I mean? I haven't seen them run. Like, I'm
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  dead. Are you talking about rhinos? No, like
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  hippos. I haven't seen a hippo run. They're just
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  like, whoa! Rhinos, too. Yeah, they're massive.
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  If they get a hold of you, it's like, oh, you're
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  gone. Yeah, and their teeth are insane. Yeah.
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  But like a hippo is like a manatee and a rhino.
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  Yeah. Actually, a manatee is another one, too.
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  Manatees are crazy. They're terrifying. Yeah.
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  But the hippo can get out of the water. Yes,
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  yeah, and that's the crazy thing because the
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  one like there was one at At the animal kingdom
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  and I'm standing like right up against the glass
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  and it's just like swimming and it comes like
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  right at you and you're like I Like my whole
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  family could fit inside of this hippo. Yeah.
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  Yeah, and it would just have no problem. It's
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  a hungry hungry hippo That's so crazy, but uh,
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  there's a lot more going on here than if these
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  whales could talk. Mm, they could sing. Three,
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  two, one. But I still see His sacred face This
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  is Mortar's Road Where the sky keeps record of
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  the souls we know This is Mortar's Road stars
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  like ancient prayers forgetting who first placed
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  us there maybe heaven's not so far away when
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  the constellations still obey they call amen
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  but I still see a thousand witnesses staring
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  back at me this is martyrs row where the sky
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  keeps record of the souls we know this is martyrs
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  row where the sky keeps record of the souls we
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  know this is martyrs row this is martyrs row
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  the glory of God. The firmament is handiwork.
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  The heavens declare the glory of God. The firmament
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  is handiwork. This is martyr's row, where the
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  skies keep the record of the souls we know. This
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  is martyr's row, where the skies keep record
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  of the souls we know this is martyr's row Paul
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  I have a song for you I mean a question for you
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  I mean a song for you Paul I have a question
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  song for you. Are you gonna sing the question?
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  I can. You should sing it. Okay I'll sing it
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  Father Abraham had many stars. Many stars had
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  Father Abraham. How do I make that a question?
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  I think you just did. Did Father Abraham have
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  many stars? I love that. Father Abraham had many
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  stars. Many stars had Father Abraham. I am one
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  of them. So are you. So are you. So let's just
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  praise the Lord. Right arm? Left arm? The whole
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  rest of the episode is just us phrasing it in
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  a way where every line is a question. Is the
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  song Father Abraham, the Christian Hokey Pokey?
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  Right? I think it is. Actually, I've never thought
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  about that before. I haven't either. Or it's
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  the, what's this one? Where you do the hands?
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  The Macarena? Yeah, the Macarena. Is it the Macarena?
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  That's kind of funny. The Hokey Pokey makes more
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  sense time -wise. Yeah. I don't know when Father
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  Abraham was written. Also, who wrote it? I don't
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  know. Was that like one of the - It's a classic.
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  Yeah, but like, who was like, guys, I got an
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  idea for a song. Check this out. You're never
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  gonna believe it. You were never gonna believe
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  it. It involves our whole body. Okay. It's crazy.
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  And Father Abraham. Okay Abraham, we get it.
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  Just hit record. It was just him. It's how he
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  told Sarah that his name changed. So guess what?
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  So Sarah, I have a, here's the thing. God spoke
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  to me and he said, Father Abraham had many sons.
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  What are you doing right now? Oh, sons. Whoops,
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  I said the wrong thing. You reverted. So Paul.
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  Did Father Abraham have many stars? Do you think
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  he was kind of like a weirdo about his name change?
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  Oh, good question. Where his wife's like, hey,
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  Abram. Abram. He's just like, oh, and he's just
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  in the corner. He's like, I'm sorry. Who? Who
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  are you asking for? I'm Abraham. All right. Abram
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  just left. But Abraham will be here forever.
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  Well, Abraham, can you take out the trash? No,
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  I'm rich. It's time to go sacrifice your son,
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  Abraham. Oh, man. Yikes. But actually, to answer
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  your question. Okay, yeah, I like that. In the
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  way that we like to answer them. Let's do it.
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  Which is in a very long winded, an hour long.
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  Answer to a single question. Yeah, that's how
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  we like to do it around here. Here we go. Start
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  the timer. Yeah, it just pops up in there. Remote.
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  Actually, I want to jump to Genesis 22. Cool.
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  Where are we jumping from? From right here. Just
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  from right here? Just from here. Actually, how
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  do I pull that up? I'm using your phone right
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  now. Yeah. Which means I don't know where anything
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  is. You don't know how phones work. Yeah, phones,
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  what are they? Phones, how you work? How do stuff?
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  Genesis 22? Uh, yeah. That's what you said, right?
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  I'm pretty sure. Yeah, 2215. 2215. 2215. There
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  you are. Actually, you know what? I'm going to
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  change it up a little bit. Do it. I'm actually
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  going to jump to Genesis 15. Jump backwards?
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  Jump backwards. Slide backwards? We're going
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  to go backwards to go forwards. Perfect. We weren't
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  anywhere at first. I know. And now here we are.
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  Here we are. Father Abraham had many. Starts.
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  Had many sons. So. Genesis 15. Genesis 15, starting
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  in verse one. I love it. After these things,
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  the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision.
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  Abram. Fear not, Abram. I am your shield. Your
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  reward shall be very great. Now that's a good
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  vision to get. I love that. Like, let's go. Did
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  Abraham make this one up? Alright, so check this
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  out. Check this out, guys. God's giving me a
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  trophy. He just showed up, he's like, guess what?
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  You're the best. You just, you're gonna be very
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  witch. God showed up, he was like, Abraham, you're
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  the best, dude. You get a trophy, here you go.
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  And also, Moses is very humble. these guys. I
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  don't know where this this accent's coming from.
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  It's just, I'm just gonna call it an accent.
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  It kind of adjusted slightly. I know. So continuing
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  in verse two. But Abram said, Oh Lord God, what
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  will you give me? For I continue childless. In
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  the heir of my house is Eleazar of Damascus.
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  And Abram said, Behold, you have given me no
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  offspring, and a member of my household will
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  be my heir. And behold, the word of the Lord
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  came to him. This man shall not be your heir.
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  You're very, could you imagine Eliezer? He's
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  like, oh man, he's over in the corner. I'm so
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  close. Oh, come on. And he brought him outside
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  and said, look toward heaven and number the stars.
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  If you are able to number them, then he said
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  to him, so shall your offspring be. And he believed
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  the Lord and he counted it to him as righteousness.
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  I love that. So it's cool. So we get this, he's
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  basically like, yeah, look up. you don't have
• 20:55
  any kids, but you're gonna have as many as there
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  are stars. And it's like, oh, that's cool. But.
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  And he's like, if you can count them. If you
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  can count them. If you can't, no sons. Sorry,
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  you're out. Well, so it's interesting because,
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  so that's the promise to Abram. Right. But then
• 21:12
  we jump. Abraham. Now to 15 or 22. Okay. With
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  Abraham. And there's something interesting this
• 21:20
  little bit. A little bit interesting. There's
• 21:23
  something interesting that's a little bit - Apparently
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  I turned into Yoda for a second. A little bit
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  interesting, are we? A little bit interesting.
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  So this is starting in verse 15. Okay. So Genesis
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  22 verse 15. In the angel of the Lord called
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  to Abraham a second time from heaven and said,
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  by myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because
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  you have done this and have not withheld your
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  son, your only son. I will surely bless you and
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  I will surely multiply your offspring as the
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  stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the
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  seashore and your offspring shall possess the
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  gate of his enemies and In your offspring shall
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  all the nations of the earth be blessed because
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  you have obeyed my voice So There's like some
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  language change that happens here. Yeah And it's
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  like, he's talking to the same guy, different
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  name. True. But it's interesting, so back in
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  chapter 15 when he's still Abram, which interestingly,
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  we've talked about this a little bit on names,
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  his name means exalted father. And that's what
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  we see happen, where he's like, hey, I'm gonna
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  call you out and I'm gonna give you this promise
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  that you will have a lot of heirs, a lot of offspring.
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  And he's like, I actually don't have any kids
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  at all. Yeah, and I'm old. Yeah, so it's kind
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  of this cool, like, reversal in that where he's
• 22:50
  like, not only are you gonna have kids, you're
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  gonna have a lot of kids. Yeah, yeah. And then
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  we jump here after he's Abraham, which means
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  father of multitude, and we see this image where
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  God asks him to sacrifice his only son. Right.
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  And we even see that call, he's like, you're
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  willing to sacrifice your son, your only son.
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  I was like, oh, that's some interesting language
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  that we'll continue on with Christ. But then
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  he says, and they're gonna be as the stars of
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  heaven, and the sand on the seashore. So it's
• 23:29
  like, oh, wait a second. Now he just created
• 23:31
  a weird distinction here. Yeah, there's two different
• 23:33
  things. So it's like before, because he said,
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  if you can number the stars, so we often ring
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  B. And so now he's taking that same star language,
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  but now he also adds like a grounding earth element
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  to it. And so it's kind of like we have this
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  beginning of, hey, you're gonna have a lot of
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  kids, and the stars, which we've talked about
• 23:55
  in the last episode, stars carry this connotation
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  of divine beings, of angelic beings. But now
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  he's like, not only are they gonna carry that
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  Kind of distinction. Yeah So he's basically saying
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  like you're gonna be raised to divinity sure
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  your offspring will be but also I'm gonna give
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  you the earth as well Hmm and from there he even
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  says and because of your obedience all the nations
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  will be blessed. Yeah But I yeah not raised to
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  divinity Well, so I'm using kind of I'm kind
• 24:32
  of using early church language in that okay,
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  and we'll get there I just want to be careful
• 24:36
  of Slipping into Mormonism. That's fair. Yeah.
• 24:42
  No, that's that's a good distinction And when
• 24:44
  I say I think the word divinity or divine we
• 24:47
  carry it Maybe raised into heavenly places. There
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  we go. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, because we don't become
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  divine no, but we are raised up into the heavenly
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  places with the divine. Well, so that's the interesting
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  thing. I think with, because we, humanity, even
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  with this promise, it kind of does elevate our
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  position in a way. Sure. Where we are then called,
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  and we see this referenced in New Testament,
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  we are called B 'nai Elohim. The sons of God.
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  So that's what I mean when I say divine. And
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  I'm kind of intentionally using this early church
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  language because it's fun. Yes, we're not going
• 25:29
  to be like God. Right, but to be fair, this is
• 25:34
  some of the, and you probably didn't mean like,
• 25:37
  no, I would bring this up, but it is some of
• 25:41
  the distinction and some of the places where
• 25:44
  Mormonism diverges from Orthodox Christianity.
• 25:48
  but it is that idea that if you understand or
• 25:54
  if you follow the understanding and the perspective
• 25:58
  in the world view that God has a council of beings
• 26:03
  that all have specific tasks that... that are
• 26:08
  part of taking care of his creation. So you have
• 26:13
  the angelic beings that are messengers and then
• 26:16
  you have the guardian cherub and then you have
• 26:19
  the seraphim who are throne room guardians. You
• 26:23
  have all of these different beings and there's
• 26:26
  a bunch of different more. We've briefly talked
• 26:29
  on an episode about a potential keeper of the
• 26:32
  numbers. as a holy one, which is an interesting
• 26:37
  thing. So there's all these departments. And
• 26:40
  the earthly department, we've kind of hinted
• 26:42
  on this. The department that humans are in charge
• 26:47
  of would be the earth. So we were created to
• 26:52
  steward the earth. So kind of similar to like,
• 26:56
  and we haven't really explored this idea. No,
• 26:59
  and we're kind of jumping into it a little bit
• 27:00
  tonight Okay, cool this because it kind of is
• 27:03
  all tied into this idea of what does God actually
• 27:05
  promise Abraham sure, okay? Which that's kind
• 27:09
  of like our pivot. Yeah, it's like yeah, what
• 27:11
  does he actually promise him? Yeah, so so in
• 27:14
  that way though to finish that thought like I
• 27:16
  think the idea that like the early church language
• 27:18
  of we become divine the been Elohim We become
• 27:22
  part of the council of God. Yes, so we don't
• 27:25
  necessarily become Gods. Correct. We become part
• 27:28
  of the council of God and sons of God. We're
• 27:32
  raised to a higher status. Right, but Jesus is
• 27:36
  the King of Kings. Yep. He's the God of Gods.
• 27:40
  Yeah. So at no point are we becoming elevated
• 27:43
  in a divine nature to the point of Jesus Christ.
• 27:46
  Yes. Which would be where the Mormons diverge.
• 27:50
  Yeah, and that's actually a really big point
• 27:52
  in there even when we're talking about this and
• 27:54
  we'll probably... Always repeat this because
• 27:56
  it's it bears repeating. Yeah where it's like
• 27:59
  there is So even we look at the word Elohim because
• 28:03
  that'll come up a lot sure tonight and moving
• 28:05
  forward Yeah, as it has in the past. Yeah, or
• 28:08
  it's like I'm used to it. Yeah, there's it's
• 28:10
  a big word But it's like, okay, so Elohim is
• 28:14
  used to refer to a lot of different things not
• 28:16
  just God Yeah, it like directly translates to
• 28:19
  God. Yes, but it doesn't mean capital G God,
• 28:22
  right? it can refer to him, but it often refers
• 28:26
  to other things as well. So it's like, okay,
• 28:29
  so what is this Elohim? And in that way, it's
• 28:33
  like, again, it's just like an adjective. It's
• 28:35
  like, this places you in a place. Yeah, and I
• 28:40
  think one of the ways that we confuse that sometimes
• 28:44
  is in worship songs, particularly modern worship
• 28:47
  songs, that they interchange names of God, like
• 28:51
  Adonai. with Elohim, and it makes people think
• 28:56
  like Elohim means Yahweh. Yeah, people think
• 28:59
  it's a title for God, but it's not. It's not.
• 29:02
  Yeah. And that's where it becomes problematic
• 29:05
  for us when we start to look at Hebrew. Right,
• 29:08
  exactly. Is now we think that when he says, you
• 29:15
  know, you're Elohim, he's talking about things
• 29:17
  that aren't God, but he uses the word Elohim
• 29:19
  in the Psalms. Right. And it's like, oh wait,
• 29:22
  does that mean that there's multiple equivalents
• 29:25
  to Yahweh? And it's like, no, not at all. In
• 29:29
  the same way, even when we jump to Saul when
• 29:34
  he goes to the woman in Endor. And he calls Samuel
• 29:40
  Elohim. And it's like, well, we know it's a dead
• 29:43
  human. We know that it's not capital G God. And
• 29:48
  so, but when we... think that Elohim is a title
• 29:51
  for God, it becomes problematic for us when it's
• 29:54
  actually not problematic. Right, exactly. Yeah,
• 29:56
  and then people like Samuel, in that instance,
• 30:03
  or any other place where it says Elohim, equating
• 30:06
  that to God, and then you can follow the conclusion.
• 30:10
  and the misrepresentation of translation. And
• 30:15
  what would you call that? Well, I guess translating.
• 30:18
  So the misrepresentation of proper translation
• 30:22
  would get you to the point where you go, oh wait,
• 30:24
  Samuel was called Elohim. In this instance, when
• 30:29
  you're talking about the stars and the. The children
• 30:36
  of Abraham becoming like the stars or the sand
• 30:39
  on the earth and elevating Yeah, pulling those
• 30:41
  two things together like we become Elohim. Yeah,
• 30:44
  Samuel became Elohim. Yeah Well, actually I think
• 30:47
  a more appropriate way to well, yes But I think
• 30:49
  a more appropriate way even this is like we get
• 30:52
  elevated to the be part of the host of heaven
• 30:55
  Sure, that's probably a better way to say this.
• 30:57
  Yeah and with that it's like even when Paul New
• 31:02
  Testament calls us sons of God. He's not saying
• 31:06
  that you're gonna be equal to God now. He's saying,
• 31:09
  no, you're gonna be part of his court. It's like
• 31:11
  the job that the sons of God had and then they
• 31:14
  fell, well, now you're gonna replace them. That's
• 31:18
  what it's saying there. So it's like, even in
• 31:20
  this, we see that in the promise to Abraham,
• 31:22
  we get elevated to that position of, hey, these
• 31:24
  guys messed up and they're out. You're in. Maybe
• 31:31
  I won't say this, because I think this takes
• 31:33
  us in a different direction than maybe what happens
• 31:35
  after we talk about this. That's fair. Well,
• 31:38
  okay, so I do want to jump back a little bit.
• 31:40
  Yeah. Kind of with just humans in general. Sure.
• 31:44
  All right. So we did touch on this a little bit
• 31:47
  already. Okay. But it's like, okay, what are
• 31:49
  we doing here? Yeah. Why are we here? Yeah. What
• 31:52
  are we up to? I don't know, Paul. What are we
• 31:56
  supposed to do here? And this is something we've
• 31:58
  touched on a lot. through Genesis one through
• 32:01
  two, God creates manness as image bearers. And
• 32:05
  so to bypass a big conversation a little bit,
• 32:10
  it's like, well, that's a status as well, it's
• 32:14
  a title that's given to us. It doesn't negate,
• 32:17
  because there are some people like, oh, it means
• 32:19
  we look like God. We look like, it's like, it
• 32:23
  could, but it also, or it means that, we've been
• 32:29
  given a job title, and our job title is to be
• 32:32
  an image bearer. Yes. We see that reflected even
• 32:35
  in the Ten Commandments, where it's those that
• 32:37
  bear the name of the Lord. It says don't take
• 32:39
  the name of the Lord in vain. Right. So it means
• 32:41
  don't say you're going to be his representative
• 32:43
  and misrepresent him. Yeah, I'm going to tell
• 32:48
  something that I don't know exactly. OK, fair.
• 32:51
  I love it. So I believe that there is this concept
• 32:55
  in ancient times where a king would have a signet.
• 33:01
  And it would be typically, it would be like an
• 33:05
  imprinted signature or like an icon or something
• 33:09
  that represented their name, right? And they
• 33:12
  would have a signet ring. And a lot of times
• 33:16
  what they would do is if someone went to another...
• 33:21
  Yes. like palace or principality or another kingdom
• 33:26
  with a message from the king, oftentimes they
• 33:30
  would take the signet ring of the king. And when
• 33:34
  they would arrive, the people would know that
• 33:36
  the message was coming from that king because
• 33:39
  of the image bearer. Because of the one who bears
• 33:43
  the image or the signet or has the imprint of
• 33:46
  the king on them, which identifies who they are
• 33:49
  and who they're representing. I mean, that's
• 33:52
  exactly what we see with, I mean, throughout
• 33:55
  scripture, especially in the New Testament. It's
• 33:57
  like, well, how did people know that the apostles
• 34:00
  were working in the name of God, in the name
• 34:02
  of Yahweh? Well, they were miracles that were
• 34:04
  attached to it. Yeah, exactly. That showed like,
• 34:07
  hey, we represent him. Yes. Because it's things
• 34:10
  only he can do. Well, and this makes me think
• 34:13
  of this, which I love this, because I think that...
• 34:16
  I think one of the things that we have to understand,
• 34:19
  one of the things I think we talk about and go
• 34:20
  back to a lot is that if there is something that
• 34:26
  is a spiritual practice, or if there is something
• 34:29
  that is representative of a truth, but doesn't
• 34:35
  seem quite right, meaning like it's a little
• 34:39
  bit off, but it's reality. that may be really
• 34:43
  confusing. Basically what I'm saying is to every
• 34:49
  truth there is a deception. I would say it's
• 34:55
  more one for one than we like to believe. The
• 34:59
  reason I say that is because in the Old Testament,
• 35:02
  in the Levitical law, if you're in America, you
• 35:09
  go to New York, Miami, there's a couple places,
• 35:13
  but Hasidic Jews. They carry, they have their
• 35:19
  hair a certain way. They have shirts with tassels
• 35:23
  on them that represent the four corners of the
• 35:26
  temple. And then they have multiple things. They
• 35:30
  have passages of scripture up in the curls in
• 35:35
  their hair. They have all of these things and
• 35:37
  then also if you go to a temple or where I saw
• 35:42
  this was the Western Wall. Yes, I went to Israel.
• 35:47
  That's an inside joke if you've seen the show.
• 35:50
  But they would literally have leather boxes and
• 35:55
  in the box would be scripture passages and they
• 35:58
  would tie them around their heads and then they
• 36:01
  would wrap them around their wrists and then
• 36:03
  they would pray. at the Western wall. And it's
• 36:08
  that idea that like they are writing the word
• 36:11
  of the Lord and they are writing it on their
• 36:14
  foreheads. They are keeping it close to them.
• 36:18
  And it's that simple idea. And it made me think
• 36:21
  of the Mark of the Beast. And the Mark of the
• 36:24
  Beast is what? It's a signet. It's a stamp from
• 36:29
  the evil one. which is a deception of the truth,
• 36:34
  which is the mark of the image of the creator
• 36:38
  God upon his people. So the image of God being
• 36:45
  an image bearer, there is an imprint that you
• 36:49
  carry, right? And Jesus identifies it as love.
• 36:54
  How will they know us? They'll know you by your
• 36:57
  love for one another. Sharing proper biblical
• 37:01
  love with people is The signature of God on the
• 37:06
  earth. Yeah as far as Jesus is concerned Yeah,
• 37:10
  and I mean that's that's an example. We see God
• 37:12
  revealing to people Repeatedly even in today.
• 37:16
  Yeah, I mean we talked about that and I like
• 37:18
  near -death experiences or even people that see
• 37:22
  Jesus. Yeah today they see him either physically
• 37:26
  appearing to them, or a vision of him in a dream,
• 37:30
  and the thing that always imprints on them is
• 37:32
  the love that they feel from him. And it's like,
• 37:35
  yes, because that's what he's showing. That's
• 37:37
  how you know him. Yeah, oh yeah. That is one
• 37:41
  of the beautiful responses, even of some of the
• 37:46
  things like the telepathy tapes. Like when those
• 37:51
  people in there, they talk about like, The eyes.
• 37:54
  It's just they feel, yeah, it's like he looks
• 37:58
  like love. Yes. Like he feels like love. It's
• 38:01
  like he's made up of love. Yeah. And that it's
• 38:05
  like that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, sorry.
• 38:08
  Yeah, it's true. Yeah. That is the signature
• 38:12
  of God that Jesus reveals to us before he ascends
• 38:17
  back into heaven, which is awesome, which is
• 38:20
  why there's a massive corruption and deception
• 38:23
  around love because that is the signature of
• 38:27
  God proper. So of course, there's gonna be an
• 38:31
  abomination in the use of the signature of God.
• 38:35
  And then one more thing. Mount Moriah, which
• 38:40
  is where Jerusalem sits, has valleys all the
• 38:44
  way around it. And so no matter where you are
• 38:49
  coming from, you're always going down into a
• 38:52
  valley and then up to Mount Moriah. Mount Moriah
• 38:55
  is actually an M. Oh, that's cool. So if you
• 38:59
  look at Mount Moriah from the air, it looks like
• 39:04
  a signet ring. Oh, that's cool. Because it has
• 39:07
  valleys all the way around it. So it circles
• 39:10
  the, yeah. It literally looks like an imprint
• 39:12
  of an M in the earth. That's sick. It's pretty
• 39:15
  cool. That's really cool. I didn't know that.
• 39:17
  Yeah. that's you go like well god stamped his
• 39:23
  land yeah and it's like that's why like that's
• 39:28
  that creates some significance in that space
• 39:31
  in a way that's like kind of not super tangible
• 39:34
  yeah like how do we how do we describe this it's
• 39:38
  like well lift up above yeah and also stop building
• 39:42
  stuff on everything stop building and destroying
• 39:45
  well we need more walmarts Not in the Kidron
• 39:50
  Valley. That's the valley of judgment. Fair enough.
• 39:56
  We need more hotels there. Yeah. But I think
• 40:01
  that that is one of those things is we think
• 40:03
  certain things, and this is like, we'll get into
• 40:05
  new age at some point, but this is one of those
• 40:08
  things where people think this thing, I think
• 40:11
  because we live in such a dichotomy of red versus
• 40:14
  blue. We live in this dichotomy of right versus
• 40:19
  left, it's this space where like, all right,
• 40:23
  well, if the Republicans think this, then the
• 40:25
  Democrats only get this. It's like, you only
• 40:28
  have 10 options and people are picking their
• 40:30
  teams. But like, that's not actually how everything
• 40:33
  works. The truth is, is there's truth and then
• 40:37
  there's an opposite deception. So it's not like
• 40:40
  some things are evil and some things are good.
• 40:45
  There's good. and then there's the deception
• 40:48
  of the good. So it's the same thing of like God
• 40:52
  comes in and creates the garden, creates Adam
• 40:58
  and Eve, and then the enemy comes in behind him
• 41:02
  and starts to tell lies in the midst of truth.
• 41:05
  That's what's happening over and over again.
• 41:08
  So anything that is true has a deception. It's
• 41:10
  the same one every time. And that's the thing
• 41:12
  that I... To what you're saying that we we look
• 41:15
  at and we see this repeated through the story
• 41:16
  leading up to Abram Yeah, when he's called out,
• 41:20
  it's this repeated of we keep failing at the
• 41:23
  same thing, right? Because we keep falling for
• 41:25
  the same the same Deception. Yes. I mean so so
• 41:29
  when we look at that, so it's like, okay humanity
• 41:32
  was given the earth We were we were told to cultivate
• 41:35
  it take dominion of it and represent the Lord
• 41:38
  on it. Yeah And so what does that mean? It's
• 41:40
  like, well, we're the earthly representatives,
• 41:42
  the sons of God, the Ben Elohim. They are the
• 41:45
  heavenly representatives. And someone's like,
• 41:49
  well, why does God need that? It's like, I don't
• 41:50
  know. That's just what He wanted to do. And honestly,
• 41:54
  I think to really, I guess to put even maybe
• 41:56
  a little bit of an answer to it, it kind of demonstrates
• 41:58
  His love as well. It's like, cause He loves to
• 42:02
  have like, input, not like he needs, that sounds
• 42:07
  like a heresy, but it's like he loves to do things
• 42:11
  with people. With others. And not like he's sharing
• 42:16
  it, but yeah. You could say, you could just add
• 42:19
  a couple descriptors. It seems to be that God
• 42:23
  likes to do things with people. Thank you. I
• 42:27
  was like, there's one I'm trying to say and it
• 42:29
  sounds like a heresy, so let me figure out how
• 42:30
  to not say it that way. Yeah, and some of it
• 42:33
  is just like, Sometimes we need to just not say
• 42:36
  things so black and white direct. We just need
• 42:38
  to go like, our observation of God is that he
• 42:43
  seems to like to hang out with us. I don't know
• 42:46
  why, I wouldn't want to hang out with me. I want
• 42:49
  to hang out with Paul, but it's one of those
• 42:51
  things where you're just like, I don't understand
• 42:54
  why. But it seems to be that's what he wants.
• 42:59
  That's on Him. And He likes to do that. Yeah.
• 43:02
  Is that where that phrase, on God, comes from?
• 43:05
  It might be. That's great. I don't know. On God.
• 43:11
  On God. Yeah, so it's like that's just what He
• 43:14
  chooses to do. Yeah. And it's not because He
• 43:17
  needs it, because He doesn't. Yeah, or maybe
• 43:20
  He doesn't, who cares? Yeah. You know what I
• 43:23
  mean? That's what He does. Right. We don't know
• 43:26
  what He needs. Yeah. But whatever he does he
• 43:31
  can do. Yeah, and so if to him he needs it We'll
• 43:36
  never know unless he tells us it's true and he
• 43:38
  hasn't told us he needs anything. Yeah That's
• 43:41
  a good way to say that. Yeah, but yeah, so so
• 43:45
  what God chose to do was make humans Yeah, the
• 43:49
  representatives of earth. He gave us the birthright
• 43:51
  to earth, right? He said hey, this is yours.
• 43:53
  Take care of it. Yes and represent me on it.
• 43:56
  Yes And what do we do? We're like, yeah, actually
• 43:59
  we want to be like the ones up there. Yeah Yeah,
• 44:02
  cuz that that's what the serpent said. He said
• 44:04
  it. Hey, no, actually the tree here is actually
• 44:06
  good Yeah, and you can be like Elohim. Yeah And
• 44:11
  I said it that way intentionally. I know it was
• 44:14
  like oh Well, yeah, I want that. Yeah Because
• 44:17
  here we are in Eden. It's like this bridge between
• 44:20
  the two places, right? And he's like, yeah, you
• 44:22
  can actually go all the way up. Yeah, just Just
• 44:25
  take it. Yeah, and we're like sweet. Let's do
• 44:28
  it Well and simply put when you say it like that
• 44:31
  because we've talked about Mormonism. Yeah Well,
• 44:34
  I just what I mean is what I mean is yeah, the
• 44:38
  the ancient serpent said you can also be like
• 44:42
  Elohim Yes, and then the Mormon religion goes.
• 44:46
  Yeah. Look at Jesus who became an Elohim. Mm
• 44:50
  -hmm. So we should follow his example to become
• 44:53
  an Elohim. Yeah, and that's where it's totally
• 44:55
  backwards. And you go, no, he was. I get how
• 44:58
  you get that, but you're literally saying the
• 45:01
  same thing that the serpent in the garden said.
• 45:04
  Yes. Like what you're preaching is what the serpent
• 45:06
  was preaching. Yeah. That's, which it's, it seems
• 45:11
  so obvious. Even with that, it's like, it's totally
• 45:13
  backwards. Like, no, Jesus didn't become an Elohim.
• 45:16
  He was, and he became human. Yeah. Totally reversed.
• 45:20
  Right. And there's a lot to show that is what
• 45:23
  happened. Which we'll get into that. But you
• 45:27
  said our birthright, our inheritance. So our
• 45:31
  inheritance given to us is the earth. That is
• 45:36
  our birthright. It's what we are to steward.
• 45:40
  We were made from it. We were made for it. To
• 45:44
  steward it. So it kind of makes sense, like from
• 45:48
  dust we were made, from dust we will return.
• 45:50
  The earth was made for us to steward, but it
• 45:55
  was made for him, by him, and through him, him
• 46:01
  being Jesus. And so in that way, when we were
• 46:08
  made in his image, to echo that again, What it
• 46:14
  doesn't mean, but can mean, is that we look like
• 46:18
  our brother. Yeah. Right? Because Jesus is actually
• 46:23
  not our brother. Right. So maybe we look like
• 46:28
  our dad, but Jesus is not our dad. No. But kind
• 46:34
  of? Trinitarially? It's hard to talk about the
• 46:39
  trinity with that. I said I was going to make
• 46:41
  something clear and then I made it even more
• 46:43
  confusing. Yeah, as one does. So what I'm trying
• 46:49
  to say is that we were made from dust. Yep. And
• 46:55
  we will return to dust. And our job is to steward
• 47:01
  the earth. Yeah. And then that shifts. But it's
• 47:06
  similar. It shifts. It's similar, right? Well,
• 47:09
  it's similar in that it's be fruitful and multiply
• 47:11
  I mean that was there from the beginning right
• 47:14
  as well. It did that didn't even shift that was
• 47:16
  still part of it. Yeah, true It's and that's
• 47:19
  the cool thing about us like it's the same call
• 47:22
  From the beginning to the end. Mm -hmm, but there
• 47:25
  is one addition in there. Mm -hmm But even then
• 47:29
  it's like only because of this other stuff that
• 47:31
  happens. Yeah, so let's talk about that a little
• 47:33
  bit So it's like okay, so we were given the inheritance
• 47:37
  of earth yes, and then we gave that up Which
• 47:43
  is funny because so there's like this weird mix
• 47:47
  of things where it's like hey we wanted to be
• 47:49
  Like Elohim yeah, and they're like yeah, we want
• 47:53
  to rule the earth, too And so there's just like
• 47:57
  this weird balance of power in here. Or it could
• 48:00
  be argued that they were ruling the Earth. Well,
• 48:02
  that's where we're getting into, because that
• 48:03
  jumps into Deuteronomy 32. Gotcha. Because we
• 48:06
  kept giving up our inheritance. Yes. Because
• 48:08
  we wanted something else. Yeah. We're like, oh,
• 48:11
  no. I mean, that goes back to Jacob and Esau.
• 48:13
  Right. Esau says, this is my inheritance. But
• 48:15
  no, I actually want soup instead. Yeah. And we're
• 48:18
  like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We want the worthless
• 48:20
  thing, the thing that's not for us. Yes. We want
• 48:23
  the desires of our flesh. Yes. not our spiritual
• 48:26
  inheritance. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so what
• 48:31
  happens is we keep messing this up repeatedly.
• 48:34
  Yeah. And God tries. He's like, hey, let me let
• 48:37
  me put things in place. You stop messing up.
• 48:39
  Yeah. It's like he turns and walks away. He's
• 48:41
  like turned back around. Ah, come on, guys. Are
• 48:44
  you serious? I was just here this morning. And
• 48:49
  so that's where we kind of see the Tower of Babel
• 48:52
  happen. I just thought, if only I didn't go back
• 48:54
  and eat that bagel. Darn it. God's like, man,
• 49:00
  if I just didn't go back and eat that bagel,
• 49:02
  I could have stopped him. You walk away for five
• 49:05
  minutes. Then he's like, if you want something
• 49:07
  done right, you got to do it yourself. Yeah.
• 49:09
  Come on, other Elohim. Where are you? Where were
• 49:13
  you at? Well, so that's where we jump into Deuteronomy
• 49:15
  32, which we've talked about at length. Kind
• 49:18
  of. Kind of. I feel like we've brought it up
• 49:20
  at length. Yeah. We've brought it up often, not
• 49:23
  talked about it in depth. That's fair. That's
• 49:25
  fair. But so here to bring it back. Actually,
• 49:27
  we might have. I honestly just don't remember.
• 49:29
  I can't. We've done so many episodes. I know.
• 49:31
  It's crazy. We're probably repeating ourselves.
• 49:34
  I hope so. But I mean, we can't help it because
• 49:37
  it's telling the same story. It's the different
• 49:39
  ways. Welcome to the ecosphere. So with that,
• 49:43
  it's like so what God does is he disinherits
• 49:46
  the nations and he gives he divides the nations.
• 49:51
  by the number of the sons of God, but then he
• 49:53
  takes Israel for his portion. So he says, hey,
• 49:57
  I'm gonna put these sons of God, these other
• 50:00
  Elohim, Daniel calls them watchers, they're gonna
• 50:03
  watch over you. That's where the word comes from.
• 50:06
  It's like they're gonna watch over the nations
• 50:08
  and make sure that they're representing God.
• 50:10
  And they're gonna help guide them so they worship
• 50:13
  and glorify the Lord. That's what he put them
• 50:16
  in. He's like, he didn't... institute these fallen
• 50:18
  beings. He's like, hey, here's a bunch of bad
• 50:21
  guys for you. He's like, no, no, no. Here's a
• 50:23
  thing that's gonna help you be good. But what
• 50:26
  ends up happening is the ones that are put to
• 50:30
  watch over the nations, they're like, actually,
• 50:32
  I kind of want some of that worship for myself.
• 50:35
  And God's like, are you serious? And to be fair,
• 50:41
  this is a perspective. Because everything you
• 50:46
  just said, Some people listening may be like,
• 50:48
  what? That's fair, that's fair. This is, I mean,
• 50:53
  yeah. This is a perspective of how to read this.
• 50:59
  Yes, that's correct. But, and it is a slightly
• 51:02
  different perspective than what is the modern
• 51:06
  normal. Thank you. Yeah, modern norm. Modern
• 51:09
  norm. Yeah. Yeah. Mod norm. Mod norm. And that's
• 51:13
  one of those, like, with this. But it's not foreign
• 51:15
  to the to the echo church. Yeah. Yeah, that's
• 51:19
  true. But I think it's important to understand
• 51:21
  what you said, because I think the common belief
• 51:23
  here is based off of a mistranslation. Yeah.
• 51:26
  And it's the idea that the sons of sons of God
• 51:29
  are the sons of Israel. Right. But that doesn't
• 51:32
  make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. And
• 51:34
  it doesn't make sense based on the timeline.
• 51:36
  It also doesn't make sense based off of... The
• 51:39
  context. Correct. So in Deuteronomy 32, God's
• 51:43
  not saying, I'm now sending out children of Israel
• 51:47
  to the whole earth. Right. And Israel is my portion.
• 51:51
  He's like, what? Because what happens in that
• 51:54
  moment is that it begins this reign of God that
• 51:58
  actually lasts around 800 years. Yeah. Not a
• 52:00
  thousand years. But 800 years. You got 200 left.
• 52:06
  But yeah, it lasts around 800 years. And what
• 52:08
  does that mean? It means there's no king over
• 52:10
  Israel. There are judges and there are prophets
• 52:16
  who consult with God. They get the ruling from
• 52:18
  God. They hear it out with the people and then
• 52:21
  they disseminate it into law, right? So it's
• 52:24
  that idea that God is actually the king of Israel
• 52:27
  for 800 years, which is pretty crazy. It's pretty
• 52:32
  wild. That's pretty wild to think about. That's
• 52:34
  not a perspective. That's literally there. In
• 52:39
  that instance though, it doesn't make sense that
• 52:42
  all of a sudden Israel has no son of Israel as
• 52:48
  the king. But for some reason every other nation
• 52:51
  on the earth does. It doesn't really make sense
• 52:53
  to read it that way. It doesn't make sense. And
• 52:57
  so I guess the undertone with this, which we've
• 52:59
  talked about early in the podcast, early episodes,
• 53:02
  is it's really like, let's challenge these traditional
• 53:06
  views, not because we should get rid of them,
• 53:08
  but it's like, all right, let's just see, why
• 53:10
  do we believe these things? Actually, let's be
• 53:12
  consistent there. It's a challenge, and it's
• 53:16
  a consider this, to modern views with traditional
• 53:21
  views. Because this is not the traditional view.
• 53:25
  what we're talking about is the traditional.
• 53:28
  Yes. But you're saying traditional as in the
• 53:32
  last three to five hundred years. Correct. I'm
• 53:34
  talking about the modern norm, which we call
• 53:37
  traditional. But in the scope of the church,
• 53:40
  it's like, actually, no, this is pretty new.
• 53:42
  Yeah, we call it traditional because our parents
• 53:44
  believed it. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean?
• 53:48
  Yeah, I do. And that's the thing is like. the
• 53:52
  elder in your church that asks you to do more
• 53:54
  hymns, that's what you think of when you hear
• 53:57
  traditional. But actually they believed this
• 54:02
  more modern idea when it comes to the last 2
• 54:05
  ,000 years. Traditional in the sense that we're
• 54:07
  talking about is actually like the first 2 ,000
• 54:10
  years of the church. More like 500 it started
• 54:14
  to shift. Yeah, fair enough. And I think it's
• 54:17
  kind of beautiful when we dive into, and this
• 54:19
  is kind of what we're doing is like, let's dive
• 54:20
  into some of these views and see, does it, like,
• 54:23
  how does it, what does it do to our reading of
• 54:27
  scripture? Yeah, where does it connect dots all
• 54:30
  the way through? And that's the thing that we
• 54:32
  found and that we like to talk about is like,
• 54:34
  oh, it actually expands the story to a point
• 54:37
  where it's like, God is so much bigger than we've
• 54:39
  given him credit for. Yeah, it makes a lot of
• 54:42
  things less isolated and it ties a lot more things
• 54:45
  together. Because I mean that's, yeah, in the
• 54:49
  Christian view we like to make, or the American
• 54:51
  view, we like to make things about ourselves.
• 54:54
  And we've done that a lot with our reading of
• 54:56
  scripture. Where it's like, well how does this
• 54:58
  apply to me? How is Jesus' death about me? It's
• 55:01
  like, actually, it has not really much to do
• 55:04
  about you at all. You get to benefit from what
• 55:09
  he's doing, but he does all things for himself.
• 55:13
  To bring glory to himself. It's like the story
• 55:16
  of our redemption is to bring glory to Him. Yeah.
• 55:20
  That's what it's about. Yeah. It's about for
• 55:22
  us to glorify and bend our knee to Him. Yes.
• 55:24
  But what's been happening since the fall of man
• 55:29
  is we've instead bent our knee to the stars.
• 55:33
  You just made me think of another reason not
• 55:36
  to like participation trophies. As if you needed
• 55:43
  another reason. Well, because it's reinforcing
• 55:47
  the idea that like everyone is elevated to the
• 55:53
  point of winner or main character. Yeah, yeah.
• 55:57
  And it's like the reality is is the most beautiful
• 56:00
  life that we could live as Christians is one
• 56:04
  where everything that we have passes out of our
• 56:07
  hands quickly to other people. Yeah. And that
• 56:10
  by the end of our life, the fruit of our life
• 56:13
  is not wealth gained, but instead people saved
• 56:18
  through our obedience and being fruitful and
• 56:22
  multiplying and letting the Holy Spirit use us
• 56:26
  to minister to other people. Being careful that
• 56:31
  I don't say we're not the one who saves people,
• 56:34
  but we bring the Holy Spirit into spaces that
• 56:37
  people might meet the Holy Spirit. Nice to meet
• 56:40
  you. Good to meet you. Nice to meet you, Holy
• 56:43
  Spirit Well, and that's that's a big thing because
• 56:45
  I've heard this from from Christians before and
• 56:48
  it's always like why you like no Every time I
• 56:51
  hear it and it's the idea like oh well God needs
• 56:53
  us Right you save people. Otherwise, like he
• 56:56
  can't he's like, what are you crazy? It's like
• 56:58
  and again, it goes back to like why did God do
• 57:01
  it? Because he wants to I don't know. Yeah, why
• 57:03
  does God task us with going out and spreading
• 57:07
  the gospel to the nations. Because that's what
• 57:09
  he wanted to do. He doesn't need us, and he's
• 57:11
  proven that throughout time, that he'll do it
• 57:14
  if no one's gonna do it. If we're disobedient,
• 57:18
  he will still be faithful. He's shown that a
• 57:21
  lot. So he doesn't need us, but he tells us to
• 57:26
  do it because he wants us to do it. That's a
• 57:29
  key distinction in all of this. But because the
• 57:32
  big thing here and actually I'm glad you said
• 57:34
  what you said because it it kind of leads me
• 57:37
  to Joseph and one of the dreams that he had Joseph
• 57:41
  the one with the Technicolor dreamcoat. That's
• 57:43
  the one love that guy Speaking of Mormons Yeah,
• 57:49
  so let's pull that up. I didn't realize I was
• 57:51
  gonna talk about Mormons so much this episode.
• 57:53
  I didn't either I don't know what I did, but
• 57:55
  father Abraham had many stars Man, you start
• 58:00
  how do I get it? I hope everybody keeps doing
• 58:02
  to not what highlight? Yeah, I accidentally didn't
• 58:06
  unhighlight. No. No, I think I did it. Oh Does
• 58:11
  that help or not that is exactly what I needed.
• 58:13
  Yes, we're jumping to Genesis 37 We're a lot
• 58:19
  of jump on this episode sponsored by the Bible
• 58:21
  app Thanks. The Bible app is We are powered by
• 58:26
  the Bible app I'm trying to come up with the
• 58:29
  copy. They didn't send us any copy. I love it.
• 58:31
  Bible app, why didn't you send us copy for this
• 58:33
  ad? Wait, oh yeah. It took me so long to figure
• 58:38
  out what you just said. Martyrs Row, brought
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  to you by the Bible app. The Bible app. The Bible
• 58:44
  app, where you can get the Bible. The Bible.
• 58:47
  Mini translations, one app. One of the few books
• 58:50
  where you can read 66 in one book. Huh? 66 books.
• 58:55
  Do it. In one book. You know what's funny? 66
• 58:56
  in one. When people are like, oh, if I was on
• 58:59
  a deserted island, I couldn't bring one book,
• 59:00
  it'd be the Bible. It's like, that's actually
• 59:02
  like a lot of books. 66 books. Yeah. You can
• 59:05
  only bring one of the canonical scriptures. Just
• 59:07
  one. Which one do you bring? Ooh, Revelation.
• 59:10
  And why is it Amos? Well, I mean. Because you
• 59:15
  listened to this podcast for too long. So Genesis
• 59:19
  37. Genesis would be the one to get, honestly.
• 59:22
  That would be a great book. You could be in there
• 59:24
  for it. But Revelation was written on the island
• 59:26
  of Patmos. Oh yeah, that's actually kind of...
• 59:28
  Yeah, I mean, it's an ode to John. It'd be kind
• 59:31
  of nice. Yeah, an ode to John. You'd be reading
• 59:34
  like, what? Maybe I can understand this now that
• 59:38
  I'm deserted on this island. You're like, why
• 59:39
  does it make sense now? It translates itself.
• 59:45
  As soon as you walk on an island, it becomes
• 59:48
  plain English. It's like, whoa. Whoa, that's
• 59:51
  cool. Images. Anyway. I like that. So Genesis
• 59:57
  37 verse 9. This is Joseph talking. It says,
• 1:00:01
  then he dreamed another dream and told it to
• 1:00:04
  his brothers and said, behold, I have dreamed
• 1:00:07
  another dream. Nice. Behold, the sun, the moon,
• 1:00:15
  and eleven stars were bowing down to me. But
• 1:00:18
  when he told it to his father and to his brothers,
• 1:00:20
  his father rebuked him and said to him, What
• 1:00:22
  is this dream that you dreamed? Shall I and your
• 1:00:25
  mother and your brothers indeed come to bow ourselves
• 1:00:28
  to the ground before you? And his brothers were
• 1:00:31
  jealous of him, but his father kept the saying
• 1:00:33
  in mind. So it's interesting about that. That
• 1:00:37
  happens a lot. It does. It happened to Mary.
• 1:00:41
  Yeah, she and then she kept these things in her
• 1:00:43
  heart. Yeah, that's interesting, which is it's
• 1:00:46
  a cool It's a cool little like side note idiom
• 1:00:49
  idiom that's gonna happens in there But what's
• 1:00:53
  interesting? So like what's happening in here?
• 1:00:55
  It's not an idiom. No, but it is a repeated concept.
• 1:00:58
  Yeah. Yeah, it's not an idiom No, I'm an idiom
• 1:01:02
  for agreeing with you I said such an idiom, as
• 1:01:09
  you said. I'm an idiom for agreeing with him.
• 1:01:13
  That's another shirt. But so, okay, so jumping
• 1:01:17
  back to this. We're jumping back. I know, I love
• 1:01:21
  it. So we see the promise to Abraham is your
• 1:01:27
  offspring will be as the stars and the number
• 1:01:30
  of the sand and the seashore. And then we see
• 1:01:33
  here with Joseph in his dream, is this cosmic
• 1:01:37
  language again. And it says, but one of you will
• 1:01:42
  be elevated above the rest. And it's like, oh,
• 1:01:45
  well, that's actually pretty interesting. In
• 1:01:46
  the dream, Joseph sees that as himself, and we
• 1:01:48
  see that through his story, how that comes true.
• 1:01:51
  But it's also this foretelling of something else.
• 1:01:56
  Spoilers, Jesus. By the way, everything in the
• 1:02:00
  Bible points to Jesus. It sure does. And if it
• 1:02:04
  points to you, that's the wrong Bible. And so
• 1:02:06
  what's cool about that is it's also within this
• 1:02:09
  Abrahamic line. Yeah. It's like he's a descendant
• 1:02:11
  of Abraham. Yes. And in the promise, God's saying,
• 1:02:16
  like, your offspring will be as the stars, you'll
• 1:02:19
  be elevated. Yeah. And we see with Joseph, one
• 1:02:22
  of them will be elevated. Right. And it's like,
• 1:02:24
  it's kind of, it's pretty beautiful and it's
• 1:02:25
  kind of like, man, it's just right here. Yeah,
• 1:02:28
  it's foreshadowing and echoing this concept.
• 1:02:30
  Yeah. That's also a very on earth as it is in
• 1:02:34
  heaven situation too. Yes. Which is really cool.
• 1:02:38
  And we see that kind of both those things together
• 1:02:41
  with the promise with Abraham, where we see the
• 1:02:44
  stars and the sea, the sand. Yeah, yeah. It's
• 1:02:47
  like both those things are coming together. Yeah.
• 1:02:49
  It's a beautiful concept. It's pretty poetic.
• 1:02:52
  Yeah. It's also consistent. Yes. It's a consistent
• 1:02:57
  theme that we see throughout scripture. Even
• 1:02:59
  the idea that the kingdom of God, it starts small,
• 1:03:04
  it's like a mustard seed. And as it grows, suddenly
• 1:03:09
  heaven is taking over the spaces where once was
• 1:03:15
  hell and Jesus is pushing back hell and the gates
• 1:03:19
  of hell and the church is pushing back hell in
• 1:03:23
  order that heaven might come. starting small
• 1:03:25
  and grow in a way where on earth it can be as
• 1:03:29
  it is in heaven. Which was the original point
• 1:03:33
  in the first place. That heaven and earth were
• 1:03:36
  this interlocking piece. And then there's been
• 1:03:40
  that de -creation, that disorder that's been
• 1:03:43
  prolonged. And Christ is like, God says I'm gonna
• 1:03:47
  fix this. I'm gonna create order again. But so
• 1:03:51
  that's the interesting thing here where we come
• 1:03:53
  to this point. is because, um, God can do whatever
• 1:03:57
  he wants. Yeah. We've established that. We've
• 1:03:59
  established that. That's a, you know, that's
• 1:04:01
  a some, even the modern norm believe that. He
• 1:04:03
  doesn't have to tell us why. No. But what's interesting
• 1:04:07
  is that, um, what he chooses to do is say, Hey,
• 1:04:12
  I want to, I want to give humanity the earth
• 1:04:17
  still, but you guys, gave up your inheritance
• 1:04:21
  for some soup. To use that language. Yeah, old
• 1:04:25
  Esau. He had to be a redhead. He had to. Uh oh.
• 1:04:31
  That wasn't his fault. Another episode incoming?
• 1:04:34
  The Curse of the Redhead. Oh man. That sounds
• 1:04:38
  like a Hardy Boys book. It does. Or a Scooby
• 1:04:42
  -Doo episode. I guess he does the Scooby -Doo
• 1:04:45
  episode. That'd be great. So it's like what we
• 1:04:49
  see is even with that, you know, we look at this
• 1:04:51
  with the story of Noah Yeah, it's like God floods
• 1:04:55
  the whole earth. He lets chaos rain down on it
• 1:04:58
  Yeah, so that way it can be remade orderly. Yeah.
• 1:05:02
  Yeah, but he leaves humanity alive So that way
• 1:05:06
  they can do what they're supposed to do Yeah,
• 1:05:08
  cuz like he could just wipe everybody out and
• 1:05:11
  start over again. Yeah, but he says no I don't
• 1:05:13
  want to do that and so with that it's like Yeah,
• 1:05:17
  God can just take back the inheritance, be like,
• 1:05:19
  no, the earth is mine. Right. But that would
• 1:05:22
  completely revoke humanity, which he doesn't
• 1:05:24
  want to do. Sure. And so what happens instead
• 1:05:28
  is he says, you know what I'm going to do is
• 1:05:31
  I'm going to become human and I'm going to accept
• 1:05:35
  the birthright for myself. Yes. And elevate humanity
• 1:05:38
  with me. Yes. Because now he can do that. Right.
• 1:05:42
  It was like, these are the rules he plays by,
• 1:05:44
  I don't know. Well, and in the same way, in this
• 1:05:49
  space of how we're talking about it perspective
• 1:05:52
  -wise in the traditional view, not the modern
• 1:05:55
  norm view, the understanding that Noah's ark
• 1:06:02
  was this space where God was wiping off corruption
• 1:06:08
  off the earth, but he was also in the corruption,
• 1:06:14
  he was removing the abomination to humanity.
• 1:06:19
  So he was removing the corruption of the sons
• 1:06:23
  of God from the earth in order that humanity
• 1:06:29
  might be able to actually live out the task that
• 1:06:31
  they were created to live out without interference.
• 1:06:35
  Because they were, to use the language, they
• 1:06:37
  were illegitimate heirs. They're trying to take
• 1:06:40
  the birthright that humanity was given. Right.
• 1:06:43
  Yes. And that's very loaded that we haven't unpacked
• 1:06:46
  at all. I know. That's why I said it that way.
• 1:06:48
  Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so then we see Christ come
• 1:06:52
  down and become the most legitimate because he
• 1:06:54
  becomes the only true human. Right. And he then
• 1:06:58
  becomes preeminent over all things through his
• 1:07:01
  death and resurrection. Yes. So with that though
• 1:07:05
  because one of the we did a whole episode about
• 1:07:07
  this with the idea of the son of man and that
• 1:07:09
  title that That Jesus takes for himself. Mm -hmm.
• 1:07:12
  This is most the most fair is most of popular
• 1:07:15
  title He gave himself side note. Yeah, and this
• 1:07:18
  is gonna sound insane because we haven't unpacked
• 1:07:20
  this but you made just made me think of Something
• 1:07:23
  that I want to say right here, which so like
• 1:07:26
  if this doesn't make any sense to you We'll get
• 1:07:28
  to it at some point but Jesus His father is not
• 1:07:35
  Joseph. Right. So he is spirit inseminated into
• 1:07:43
  Mary. Yes. Who then Mary has Jesus born of a
• 1:07:49
  virgin, right? So Jesus himself, his father is
• 1:07:54
  a spirit, a God, God of gods, right? So God places
• 1:08:02
  does the same thing, the reversal. And in that
• 1:08:07
  instance, it gives us legitimacy to the understanding
• 1:08:12
  that a God in relationship to humans creating
• 1:08:18
  offspring allows for the offspring to have inheritance
• 1:08:24
  of Earth, which legitimizes Genesis 6 in reverse.
• 1:08:30
  Exactly. It points back to it and goes, this
• 1:08:32
  did happen. There is a whole lot to talk about
• 1:08:34
  that. I know. And I needed to say that though,
• 1:08:36
  because I hadn't thought about that. No, that's
• 1:08:38
  really good. That link. Yeah. Because now I'll
• 1:08:42
  remember it. And because that's the big thing
• 1:08:44
  too that we see, especially with this traditional,
• 1:08:47
  early church traditional view is all these things
• 1:08:52
  that Jesus does are reversals. He's reversing
• 1:08:56
  these things that happened before. Right. And
• 1:08:58
  it's like, that's really important. It's a really
• 1:09:00
  important device that continues to happen throughout
• 1:09:06
  scripture. It's saying, here is this de -creation,
• 1:09:10
  and then Christ reversed it and created order
• 1:09:12
  where there was no order. Yeah, so the question
• 1:09:15
  for that episode will have to be, why did Jesus
• 1:09:17
  have to be born of a virgin? Because... Let's
• 1:09:22
  leave that out because... No, I'm not gonna answer
• 1:09:24
  it. I'm saying the reason why we would need to
• 1:09:26
  ask that question. Oh, yeah. is because if you
• 1:09:30
  look at the Nicene Creed and you look at all
• 1:09:33
  of that stuff, if someone were to ask you, Christian,
• 1:09:36
  why is it important that Jesus was born of a
• 1:09:40
  virgin, right? I think we don't ask that question.
• 1:09:43
  What we say is you have to believe that Jesus
• 1:09:46
  was born of a virgin because it makes him different,
• 1:09:50
  okay? But then someone who understands culture
• 1:09:54
  and ancient culture, they would go, well, there
• 1:09:55
  are other... clear why it has to happen. Yeah,
• 1:09:58
  but then they would go, well, but there are other
• 1:10:00
  people that claim to be born a virgin. There
• 1:10:03
  were Caesars that claimed to be born of a virgin.
• 1:10:05
  It's like, so being born of a virgin alone is
• 1:10:10
  not what's important. The real question is why
• 1:10:13
  is being born of a virgin important? Yeah. So
• 1:10:17
  that's the question that we have to answer. And
• 1:10:19
  that actually unpacks a lot. It does. It opens
• 1:10:23
  it up to talk about a lot. Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying
• 1:10:27
  to bring us back on track, and I'm trying to
• 1:10:28
  remember where it is. Sands and stars. Yeah,
• 1:10:32
  fair enough. We can land the celestial plane
• 1:10:36
  on the sands of the earth. Ooh. Okay, so, oh,
• 1:10:40
  Son of Man. That's where it was at. Hopefully
• 1:10:42
  you guys can track with this. This is the fun
• 1:10:45
  where we're just kind of jumping around a little
• 1:10:46
  bit. I'm trying to keep a through line here,
• 1:10:48
  but there's a lot to talk about. And I'm kind
• 1:10:52
  of intentionally doing it to you. It's setting
• 1:10:54
  up stuff, though. Yeah, I'm kind of intentionally
• 1:10:56
  doing that. It's setting up future episodes.
• 1:10:59
  It's fun to see you react to it. That's what
• 1:11:01
  I like to do. Well, it's helping me connect a
• 1:11:03
  few things. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad.
• 1:11:07
  So yeah, so what we see here is the Son of God
• 1:11:10
  becomes the Son of Man. That's what we see that
• 1:11:13
  happens here, when we see Jesus. And it's like,
• 1:11:16
  okay, well, why is that important? And even that
• 1:11:18
  title, I think, and we did a whole episode about
• 1:11:20
  it, go check that out for sure. It's like episode
• 1:11:23
  two. I think so, it's fairly early. And who knows
• 1:11:27
  if we did a good job. But I think for the average
• 1:11:31
  Christian, if you were to ask them, why does
• 1:11:33
  Jesus call himself the son of man? They're like,
• 1:11:35
  oh, he's showing he's like a human. And he's
• 1:11:38
  like, why does he use it so much? And also, why
• 1:11:41
  do they want to kill him? Because he's like,
• 1:11:42
  hey guys, I'm a human. If you walk downtown,
• 1:11:47
  you're like, hey guys, I'm a human person. I
• 1:11:49
  don't think they're like, I'm going to kill you
• 1:11:51
  for that. They're like, OK. So why does it cause
• 1:11:55
  such an uprising? And how many times do you hear
• 1:12:01
  people reference the passage? when Jesus is in
• 1:12:06
  Caesarea Philippi with his disciples and he says,
• 1:12:08
  who do they say the Son of Man is? But people,
• 1:12:12
  when they recall that, I just heard somebody
• 1:12:15
  say this the other day, like a massively famous
• 1:12:18
  Christian worship artist. And he paraphrases
• 1:12:24
  it incorrectly and says, who do they say that
• 1:12:28
  I am? That's not what Jesus says. What Jesus
• 1:12:32
  says is, who do they say the Son of Man is? That's
• 1:12:36
  a different question. Which is very important.
• 1:12:38
  And it's also literally what the scripture says.
• 1:12:41
  Who do they say the Son of Man is? He's not saying
• 1:12:45
  who do they say I am. Because the Son of Man
• 1:12:48
  is... I just lost the word. It's a concept. Yeah,
• 1:12:55
  it's like it's title. It's a title, but it means
• 1:12:58
  something specific right because in what he's
• 1:13:02
  saying What he basically what he's saying if
• 1:13:05
  he answers his own statement Mm -hmm is he saying
• 1:13:08
  who do they say the son of man is it's me. Yeah
• 1:13:13
  It's not who they say it is. It's me. I'm the
• 1:13:17
  son of man at first. He's asking them like You
• 1:13:21
  know this, have you heard of this concept? What
• 1:13:24
  do they say about that? What does that mean?
• 1:13:26
  Define that thing. He's like, oh, that thing
• 1:13:27
  is me. So it's like, okay, so in first century
• 1:13:31
  Judaism, the son of man was understood as that
• 1:13:36
  heavenly redeemer. And so I'm gonna go back to
• 1:13:39
  our friend. Our friend of Amos. The one who walked
• 1:13:44
  and was no longer. Well, maybe. He didn't know
• 1:13:49
  Amos. Well, I'm saying allegedly he was the writer
• 1:13:52
  of this. Allegedly. That's pretty high speculation.
• 1:13:56
  I don't think he actually wrote it. I think the
• 1:13:59
  thought is that these are off of his words, but
• 1:14:01
  anyway, he's giving credit for it. But this is
• 1:14:06
  where, and spoiler, that's where the episode
• 1:14:09
  talks about, it's like the idea, the concept
• 1:14:11
  comes from this. Yeah. And so I'm gonna read
• 1:14:15
  a passage here, one of the chapters. So this
• 1:14:19
  is 1 Enoch chapter 48, if you didn't get what
• 1:14:22
  I was getting at. 1 Enoch 48. Yeah, and it says,
• 1:14:25
  in that place I beheld a fountain of righteousness
• 1:14:28
  which never failed, encircled by many springs
• 1:14:31
  of wisdom. Of these all the thirsty drank and
• 1:14:34
  were filled with wisdom, having their habitation
• 1:14:37
  with the righteous, the elect, and the holy.
• 1:14:40
  In that hour, was this son of man invoked before
• 1:14:43
  the Lord of Spirits, and his name in the presence
• 1:14:46
  of the Ancient of Days. Before the sun and the
• 1:14:49
  signs were created, interesting, before the stars
• 1:14:53
  of heaven were formed, his name was invoked in
• 1:14:56
  the presence of the Lord of Spirits. A support
• 1:14:58
  shall he be for the righteous and the holy to
• 1:15:01
  lean upon without failing, and he shall be the
• 1:15:04
  light of nations. He shall be the hope of those
• 1:15:09
  whose hearts are troubled All who dwell on earth
• 1:15:12
  shall fall down and worship before him, shall
• 1:15:14
  bless and glorify him, and sing praises to the
• 1:15:17
  name of the Lord of Spirits. Therefore the elect
• 1:15:20
  and the concealed one existed in his presence
• 1:15:23
  before the world was created, and forever. In
• 1:15:27
  his presence he existed and has revealed to the
• 1:15:29
  saints and to the righteous the wisdom of the
• 1:15:32
  Lord of Spirits. For He has preserved the lot
• 1:15:35
  of the righteous, because they have hated and
• 1:15:37
  rejected this world of iniquity, and have detested
• 1:15:40
  all its works and ways in the name of the Lord
• 1:15:43
  of Spirits. For in His name shall they be preserved,
• 1:15:47
  and His will shall be their life. In those days
• 1:15:51
  shall the kings of the earth and the mighty men
• 1:15:53
  who have gained the world by their achievements
• 1:15:56
  become humble incontinence. For in the day of
• 1:15:59
  their anxiety and trouble, their souls shall
• 1:16:02
  not be saved, and they shall be in subjection
• 1:16:04
  to those whom I have chosen. I will cast them
• 1:16:07
  like hay into the fire and like lead into the
• 1:16:10
  water. Thus shall they burn in the presence of
• 1:16:13
  the righteous and sink in the presence of the
• 1:16:15
  holy, nor shall a tenth part of them be found.
• 1:16:19
  But in the day of their trouble, the world shall
• 1:16:21
  obtain tranquility. In his presence shall they
• 1:16:24
  fall and not be raised up again. nor shall there
• 1:16:28
  be any one to take them out of his hands and
• 1:16:31
  to lift them up, for they have denied the Lord
• 1:16:34
  of Spirits and his Messiah. The name of the Lord
• 1:16:37
  of Spirits shall be blessed." So that's a lot.
• 1:16:41
  But it lays out what's being said here very clearly.
• 1:16:47
  And we see that whole through line of, in the
• 1:16:52
  beginning was the word and the word... was God.
• 1:16:55
  And it's like, that's it. Before everything was
• 1:16:57
  made, Jesus was there. And he is the Messiah.
• 1:17:02
  Well, and as you were reading that, I was thinking
• 1:17:03
  about the idea that it doesn't say, and then
• 1:17:07
  the Messiah was created. It talks about, it's
• 1:17:12
  almost as if it's saying, and then he appeared.
• 1:17:15
  It's like, then he was revealed. Yes, he was
• 1:17:18
  concealed, and then, yeah, he was revealed. and
• 1:17:22
  it's cool because we also see this language of
• 1:17:26
  the martyrs and the saints yeah and it's like
• 1:17:29
  oh that's cool that exists in this passage as
• 1:17:31
  well um in this foretelling of what we see laid
• 1:17:35
  out through scripture yeah yeah because it kind
• 1:17:38
  of ends with revelation yes which at the point
• 1:17:40
  of one enoch revelation had not been written
• 1:17:43
  yet correct which is wild it's pretty wild and
• 1:17:45
  that we actually do know because one enoch we
• 1:17:48
  have scrolls dated back to um at least at minimum
• 1:17:53
  100 years before the birth of Christ. And Revelation
• 1:17:57
  is written around 90 AD. Or somewhere between
• 1:18:05
  70 and 90 AD. Which is crazy to think about.
• 1:18:11
  But yeah, so when Jesus says, I'm the son of
• 1:18:14
  man, he's... Not to be like, hey, I'm a human
• 1:18:17
  being. He's like, no, no, no, like the judge,
• 1:18:21
  the chosen one, the Messiah, that's me. And that's
• 1:18:25
  why they want to kill him for. He's like, that's
• 1:18:28
  a big claim to make. But it's also, he needs
• 1:18:32
  to be that. We need that in order for us to be
• 1:18:37
  able to inherit the earth again and to be raised
• 1:18:39
  up. Otherwise we're gonna be cast down. It's
• 1:18:43
  like, oh, well that's... That's crazy. So that's
• 1:18:46
  the fulfillment of Abraham's promise that we
• 1:18:50
  see. It's like that the children of dust, they
• 1:18:55
  can become the stars of God's kingdom. So where
• 1:18:59
  we, and this is gonna ruffle a little bit of
• 1:19:00
  feathers possibly, but we talked about it a little
• 1:19:02
  bit in the last episode in our front segment.
• 1:19:04
  I'll take my feathers off. Nice, I like it. But
• 1:19:10
  yeah, so essentially the fallen stars, the church
• 1:19:13
  replaces them. We talked about that in the, what's
• 1:19:15
  it called, Milky Way, what was the name for it?
• 1:19:18
  Oh, something, Martyrum? Yeah, Via Martyrum.
• 1:19:22
  Yes, Via Martyrum, thank you. Yes. And it's like,
• 1:19:25
  that's the idea. The Council of God now includes
• 1:19:27
  resurrected humanity, which we said in the beginning.
• 1:19:31
  But there's, and this is probably a tease for
• 1:19:33
  a future episode, but I want to do it because
• 1:19:36
  it's kind of fun. Do it. Um, Revelation 12. Okay.
• 1:19:40
  I like Revelation. And we'll, I'll try to end
• 1:19:43
  it here. And I like 12. Put them together? I
• 1:19:46
  like both things. So, Revelation 12 -4 is gonna
• 1:19:51
  be familiar to a lot of people. Okay. Cause it's
• 1:19:53
  been taught in a certain way for a long time.
• 1:19:55
  Okay. And so I'll just read that, and then I'm
• 1:19:58
  gonna read the rest of it. Mod Norm. Mod Norm.
• 1:20:03
  His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven
• 1:20:05
  and cast them to the earth. So people like to
• 1:20:08
  read that and go, oh yeah, so Satan took a third
• 1:20:12
  of the angels with him. And it's like, okay.
• 1:20:15
  So let's read it in context now. Do it. And so
• 1:20:19
  starting in verse one, it says, and a great sign
• 1:20:22
  appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the
• 1:20:25
  sun, with the moon under her feet and on her
• 1:20:28
  head. A crown of 12 stars now does that language
• 1:20:32
  sound familiar? It does Sounds like Genesis 37
• 1:20:36
  with Joseph. Yes. Oh, that's interesting. Yes,
• 1:20:39
  and What's the point of that? It's that one of
• 1:20:43
  those will be elevated. Yes, and will be the
• 1:20:45
  Messiah. Yeah, like that's That's the story behind
• 1:20:49
  that so it's like we see that that representation
• 1:20:51
  here not only that but that's a literal constellation
• 1:20:56
  It is that's in the sky. Yes that literally is
• 1:21:00
  in the sky. Yes. It's not a figurative concept.
• 1:21:03
  It actually exists. Yes. That's Virgo. Yes. And
• 1:21:09
  the crown above, which is, I don't remember.
• 1:21:13
  Is it Regulus? I think, that sounds right. I
• 1:21:17
  think it is. These are actual constellation stars
• 1:21:19
  that if you look up in the sky you'll see them
• 1:21:21
  and at this time these were aligned. Yes. Yeah.
• 1:21:25
  Which is also why I brought this up too. Yes.
• 1:21:27
  It opens up so much more. Yes. Which is the fun.
• 1:21:29
  So that's not figurative. That literally happened.
• 1:21:32
  Yes. But also it's an echo to Genesis. Yes. So
• 1:21:38
  continuing in verse two. But the reason I keep
• 1:21:40
  pointing at that is because the stars are signs.
• 1:21:44
  What does that mean? It means literally look
• 1:21:47
  at the sky and it's telling us, God is telling
• 1:21:52
  us something. It doesn't mean we worship the
• 1:21:56
  star. It means it should point. What does the
• 1:21:59
  star point to? Correct. It should call us to
• 1:22:03
  give glory to God. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So
• 1:22:08
  then continuing in verse 2, she was pregnant
• 1:22:11
  and was crying out in birth pains and the agony
• 1:22:14
  of giving birth. Okay, so that's an interesting
• 1:22:16
  moment that we're seeing here. Right. And another
• 1:22:19
  sign appeared in heaven. Behold a great red dragon
• 1:22:22
  with seven heads and ten horns and on his heads
• 1:22:26
  seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of
• 1:22:30
  the stars of heaven and cast them into the earth
• 1:22:32
  and the dragon stood before the woman who is
• 1:22:34
  about to give birth. Okay, so that's like, it's
• 1:22:37
  about to happen. Yeah, so that when she bore
• 1:22:41
  her child, he might devour it. Okay, so so far,
• 1:22:46
  it's like, what's this picture that's being painted
• 1:22:48
  here? Well, we have this virgin who exists, who's
• 1:22:54
  about to give birth, and then we see this another
• 1:22:58
  sign, this enemy, who's like, I'm gonna try to
• 1:23:01
  go against it, and I'm gonna devour the seed.
• 1:23:06
  So then continuing in verse five, she gave birth
• 1:23:09
  to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations
• 1:23:13
  with a rod of iron. So that's like very specific
• 1:23:16
  about who they're talking about. But her child
• 1:23:19
  was caught up to God and to his throne. Oh, okay,
• 1:23:23
  very specific. And the woman fled into the wilderness
• 1:23:27
  where she has... a place prepared by God in which
• 1:23:31
  she is to be nourished for 1 ,260 days. So, I
• 1:23:35
  don't know what to do. That's also really specific.
• 1:23:37
  It is very specific. In a way that's different.
• 1:23:39
  I was like, oh, actually, so, yes. But to the
• 1:23:43
  point of, I guess, where I'm looking here is
• 1:23:46
  we're placed in a specific moment. Yeah. With
• 1:23:50
  things happening. Right. And it's like, okay,
• 1:23:52
  so what are those things happen? Kind of your
• 1:23:54
  question that we talked about when we were...
• 1:23:55
  looking through Revelation a little bit, is like,
• 1:23:58
  okay, let's read it. Did that already happen?
• 1:24:01
  Oh yeah. And it's like, yes, that already happened.
• 1:24:03
  What I just read, that happened. But it didn't
• 1:24:07
  happen back in Genesis 3. Correct. It happened
• 1:24:12
  at the birth of Christ. Right. That's what we're
• 1:24:15
  talking about here. Yeah, but in Genesis 3, God
• 1:24:20
  says that your offspring will crush, you will
• 1:24:26
  crush the head of Satan. Yeah. Your offspring
• 1:24:28
  will crush the head of Satan? The serpent. The
• 1:24:30
  serpent. Yeah. The offspring will crush the head
• 1:24:32
  of the serpent? That sounds right. Okay. Sorry.
• 1:24:36
  I was like, we could pull it up, but there wasn't
• 1:24:38
  fun in that. But that's the image that you're
• 1:24:42
  seeing here. Yes. But what we're seeing here
• 1:24:44
  is it actually happening. I know. Yeah. That's
• 1:24:47
  what I'm saying. So we have that foretelling
• 1:24:50
  of it. It's the same thing with the promise of
• 1:24:52
  Abram versus to Abraham. Yes. And it's like,
• 1:24:56
  okay, this is a promise that is going to happen.
• 1:24:59
  Yeah. And now because of your obedience, now
• 1:25:01
  it's given to you. Right. But again, yeah, we
• 1:25:06
  literally see the constellation Virgo. Yes. Above
• 1:25:11
  the constellation Scorpio. And it's as if the
• 1:25:17
  Virgin is crushing the head of the serpent. Yes.
• 1:25:19
  And I think I mentioned this on a previous episode.
• 1:25:23
  That literally happened. I know. We did. At the
• 1:25:26
  birth of Christ. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So if you look
• 1:25:28
  up when did those constellations line up, it
• 1:25:32
  happened around the birth of Christ. Yes. So
• 1:25:34
  like that's actual signs literally in the sky
• 1:25:38
  that tell the story of what's actually happening
• 1:25:40
  on earth. Yes. And Revelation paints that exact
• 1:25:43
  same picture. Yeah. But so what's it talked about
• 1:25:47
  in Genesis 3 then it talks about it in Revelation
• 1:25:49
  12 Yes, and so that the kind of tease I want
• 1:25:52
  to pull out of here a little bit sure for a future
• 1:25:54
  episode is So what what the events that just
• 1:25:58
  happened here? Yes, the revelations talk about
• 1:26:00
  happened then yes, and That's where the verse
• 1:26:03
  where we look at. Okay, like he took a third
• 1:26:06
  of the stars with him. Mm -hmm So those that
• 1:26:09
  didn't happen in Genesis 3 potentially Well,
• 1:26:12
  as far as like how we're reading it here, it's
• 1:26:14
  like, wait, he's talking about it right then.
• 1:26:16
  So Paul, what you're saying is there's a potential
• 1:26:19
  that Genesis or Revelation 12 gives us insight
• 1:26:25
  potentially to when the angels fell and when
• 1:26:31
  Satan fell like lightning. Yes. Because Jesus
• 1:26:34
  says he saw it. That's right. So if Jesus saw
• 1:26:38
  it. And he says because of that. Yes. Yeah. So
• 1:26:42
  that we got a lot of we have a lot to talk about
• 1:26:43
  we do you ready? I'm ready three two one That's
• 1:27:10
  what that makes me think