Latest / After Maghrib 🌙 / Narcissism, Toxic Family & Abuse (Ft. Dr. S Moustafa Al-Qazwini)

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Narcissism, Toxic Family & Abuse (Ft. Dr. S Moustafa Al-Qazwini) · After Maghrib 🌙

0:00
Yes, yes. Ladies and gentlemen, we have
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some big news. The time has come for the
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greatest ever after marketed production.
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The stage is set, the spotlights are on and your cinema seats are
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We have a dozen massive speakers from around the world confirmed,
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We are inviting you to our first ever official after Mushroom
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events on the 11th of January. We will be.
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Celebrating the birth and life of Mama Ali Ali Salaam, as well
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as focusing on resistance and activism to make the world a
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better place. This is not just an event, this
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is a movement. This is after mushroom.
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Visit aftermushroom.com/book right now to secure your seat.
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As you know, spaces will be limited, so make sure you don't
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miss out. All the Bilala James, Milah
1:07
Rahman, Al Rahim Islam Alaikum Rahmatul live Rocato Bran
1:10
sisters. Welcome back to the Aftermarket
1:12
podcast. This, I believe is probably one
1:15
of the most important conversations we've had on the
1:18
Aftermarket podcast until date and I'm ashamed to say we
1:21
haven't given as much attention to detail as we should have up
1:25
until now when it comes to talking about the topic of
1:29
narcissism. Talking about abuse, abusive
1:32
parents, abusive relatives, people in positions of
1:35
authority, the ways to heal and recover from that sort of abuse,
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that abuse maybe psychological, spiritual, physical and how best
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inshallah to move forward. Why don't you go online and
1:47
search about narcissism? Why our narcissists around me?
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How to deal with narcissists? It's because once this is, as
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Muslims, we see everything through the lens of Allah's
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panel to Allah. The creation that Allah has
1:59
given us and the dominion that Allah has on this earth and in
2:02
the world's is such that we see the parallel relationships we
2:07
have with other people through that lens.
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That is the lens of Allah's panel to Allah.
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And so it's very important for us to get into this
2:13
conversation, a much needed discussion with a very special
2:16
guest who we've been waiting a very long time to have on the
2:19
podcast. But before we introduce our
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special scholar, it gives me great pride as always to welcome
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and sit beside say it, Ali, so Ali can say it.
2:39
How's it going bro? Hamdallah Allah Kulihan, how?
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Are you Hamdallah shukar? I'll complain.
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Yeah, it's been, it's been blessed.
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In Hamdallah, we had our special guest who will introduce Doctor
2:49
Seid Mustafa in town for Fatima Majalis at Akabar Foundation in
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London, which has been, I think, one of the most introspective
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Fatima as we've had in recent years, at least for me, on a
3:01
personal level. A lot of very important
3:04
reminders, new gifts, gems of knowledge.
3:08
So I think it's been Hamdallah, not just a week of Azhar, but a
3:12
week of growth and knowledge and growing and learning ultimately.
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So Hamdallah, how about yourself?
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Sense well for me, I think similar to you, I call what you
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said and I had the opportunity to attend a number of my jealous
3:24
at the same time I celebrated my youngest daughter's birthday.
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She just turned 6 the other day. So life has been busy while
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Hamdallah for everything and I'm actually more excited about this
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conversation. Reason being is, as a Hamas
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said, we have a special guest and I would have loved to have
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said, you know, the, the say it has flown in thousands of miles
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just after maglev. But in reality, he was here for
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Fatima Majalis and we learnt so much over the last few days and
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it's been, I think, very educational for me.
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I would love to say, say before I introduce you that I listen to
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you week in, week out. I I keep up with your Friday
3:59
sermons, your Thursday night programmes and it's you've been
4:03
a part of my life indirectly and directly for reasons many that
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I'm possibly don't want to share here today.
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But you are more than just a scholar.
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You are more than just someone we look up to.
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I consider you personally Saidna, as a friend Saidna.
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Thank you for coming on aftermath of today, Doctor Said
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Mustafar Raswini Salaam Ali. Ali Kumar Salaam Ahmatullah my
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dear, Said Ali and Haj Ahmed. And thank you for hosting me.
4:29
I am humbled by this invitation and likewise I consider you like
4:35
my son. Also Haj Ahmed, I'm very glad to
4:39
be here and very thrilled that you have such a beautiful
4:44
program. There are thousands of
4:46
followers. I've never heard about this
4:49
until you told me. You called me when I was back in
4:51
LA and you said we have to the after Maghrib.
4:55
So I asked a couple of people. They said, yeah, this is very
4:58
well known program. So Al Hamdallah and thank you
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for the all good, all the good things that you are doing for
5:05
the community and inshallah you're going to grow and grow
5:11
and people to people need to listen to these conversations.
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You know, more and more Inshallah, inshallah.
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Sometimes said said. With your permission, we'll kick
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off as, as we mentioned in the in the introduction, probably
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one of the most under discussed topics in the community and I
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think in in the wider society is the topic of narcissism and the
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the self aggrandizement, the self inflation that people may
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have. For those who look in the
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dictionary about what narcissism is, a lot of the times it comes
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back to a generational trauma which which some people have
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received and perhaps pass on to those around them.
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The deflection that someone shows when they are confronted.
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Seeing people around them as disposable, maybe as tools or as
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threats for their own benefit. Seeing oneself as a primary
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storyline and a lack of empathy when looking at people around
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them, looking at the ways in which they have got to where
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they are and crediting themself. Maybe seeing that this is a
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result of my hard work, this is something I own.
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I have possession over this and that me, myself and I am due the
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credit that I deserve. And unfortunately this has taken
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forms in different ways. I think people have as as a lot
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of us have got older and we've maybe studied this a bit more,
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spotted it a bit more. Unfortunately, we don't as often
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ask am IA narcissist or have I developed tendencies of this,
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But I I, I kind of wanted to ask you kind of to kick off because
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I know you, you touched on this briefly in some of your majalis.
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But when you, when you approach this perspective from Islam, how
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do we study this topic? You know, because some may see
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it as just a psychiatric issue or just something which concerns
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societal and familial relationships.
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But of course, everything comes back to Islam and the way our
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last panto, Allah, has created us and the relationships we have
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around us. How do we approach it from the
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perspective of Islam? Similar Rahman Rahim.
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There is a plenty plethora of references to this subject.
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Narcissism. It's called Habbu nefs and when
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you look at our Islamic traditions, the hadith,
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specifically the hadith of al Bait and Imam Amir al Mahminin,
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they warn US against this. Imam Ali says the genesis of the
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downfall of a human being and also it was the genesis of the
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downfall of Iblis was narcissism.
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Imam Ali says three, there are three dangerous traits who who
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are interlinked with each other and these are the genesis of
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every deviation, every corruption.
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One of them is narcissism, the second is agreed, the third is
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envy or jealousy and they are connected with each other.
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Each one of them leads into the other and he himself tells his
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companions, a yaka, a yaka wahabu neffs.
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Be very careful. Do not practice self admiration,
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do not be arrogant, don't just look at yourself as being the
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best one, the more accurate and always admire yourself.
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This is this is the reason where Iblis Iblis used to worship God,
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he did worship God. Now whether his worshiping was
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authentic or not authentic we don't know.
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But he did worship God, and though he was part of the jinn,
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but his worshipping elevated him to be with the angels.
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So when God asked him to bow down to Adam, he thought of
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himself of being much better. Kalaktani Mannarin, Wakhalakto,
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human being, You created me from a substance which is much better
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and more lasting than the clay which is fire.
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So this causes this disease, the virus of narcissism, it causes
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the downfall. Eventually, not only he's going
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to hurt people who live around him, his family, his children,
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his parents, his friends, eventually he's going to hurt
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himself and it causes his downfall.
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Said. I know this is something we've
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touched on a lot in the past and we've talked about Iblis and the
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story of Iblis. And also we've referred to
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other, if I'm not mistaken, instances and earlier Quran as
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well, which refer to personalities, Ferran, for
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example, and Karon and the way they talk about themselves.
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And you know, when you study these two personalities in
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particular, Ferran talks about possession of a process and
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Karon talks about process over possession.
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But there are two different types of narcissists.
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For Allen says that these rivers that flow beneath me, they are
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mine and I own them. And Karol, on the other hand,
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sees himself as someone who deserves credit for what he the
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work he's put in and to get to where he is, and maybe sees
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himself as more worthy, more deserving of, of a status or of
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position. And this is something
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unfortunately, which we see in two different types of
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narcissists, the overt and the covert.
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The one who is openly self aggrandizing, like you said,
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saying that the one who sees himself as superior.
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And then perhaps the one who's more introverted in the sense
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that they see they comfort themselves through a reaffirming
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to themselves that they are worthy of something.
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I am better because I have done this and that.
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And it may be because they were neglected in their own lives, in
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their own childhood as well. Do you think by the way, a
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narcissist knows that they are one, that they have these traits
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or no? No, I don't, I don't think so.
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Everyone surely knows. I mean I'm sure guys are home.
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You can comment below if you have stories, but I'm sure
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everyone knows narcissists. The thing is, the the irony is,
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is we never ask am IA narcissist because the to double that we're
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meant to do in the holy Quran. Allah tells us these stories for
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what like you know, so that we look to someone like for Allen
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or Eblies and say, do I, am I adopting any of these qualities
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in myself? So Hajj Ahmed, I believe some of
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them realise they are narcissistic.
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They do. Maybe some of them don't.
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But those, this disease, this virus exists in many, many, many
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people, including some scholars. Yes.
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Do you know some of them? They say I am the most learned,
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the most knowledgeable Al Alam. He keeps saying I am Al Alam.
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So this guy is not an ignorant. Sometimes you are talking about
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someone walks in the street. He did not read the Quran, he
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did not read the Hadith. He's unaware.
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But when it comes to someone who studied the Quran, he spent
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fifty 60-70 years, you know, teaching, teaching people, you
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know, teaching the the, the holy Quran, teaching the hadith and
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inspiring people. And now he comes and he says no,
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I am the most knowledgeable. So these traits can affect
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everyone. Definitely, definitely it does.
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It does. Yeah, it does.
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This is why this disease is the most dangerous, because it
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affects every specter of the society, every individual, every
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individual. So This is why Imam Ali says
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this is the genesis, the hustle, the genesis of every deviation,
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because it's found everywhere and it's very, very, extremely
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hard to stay away from it. Extremely, extremely hard.
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Only the few, only few people would would be able to escape
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this disease. Other than that, you know, most,
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most people unfortunately, are afflicted by this disease, by
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this virus. Saying that maybe we can
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actually approach this conversation on how to deal,
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deal with the narcissistic, for example, parents, narcissistic
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spouses, because I know like I've heard so many stories, not
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just within our communities, I think even outside the Muslim
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communities, because it's not unique just to like one Group 1
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faith, 1 background. I think every marriage can be
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affected by this. Every family can be affected by
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this. And the sad reality is that
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sometimes I can have, I'll say it, sometimes I have friends who
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have told me, for example, my dad's rude to me at home, but in
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the in the mosque, he's the first in Salat al Jamar, for
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example. So people don't know what
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happens outside the house and within the communities.
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As a parent, when I grow up, I see for example, my father
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being, God forbid, 2 faced. He has two personalities, what
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he says and does in the communities, complete opposite
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of what he says and does at home.
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How do I as a child, for example, grow up?
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Because I don't think this effects children.
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It can even affect teenagers. And that's a crucial age before
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they become adults and take home responsibilities and duties.
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How do I deal with if I have parents like this?
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Because God always tells us, you know, obey your parents, listen
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to them, be kind with them. No, it doesn't say obey them at
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at any expense. OK.
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He says exactly what in Jahadaka Allah and Tushri kebi male sele
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kebihi El fala tu takoma. If they are stressing you,
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pressuring you to do something which is unethical, illegal and
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reasonable, don't listen to them.
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Don't listen to them. Yes, we must love, adore,
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respect, obey our parents, but to certain extent.
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To certain extent. So when they go into the wrong
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path, they do the wrong thing, we have to face them.
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But politely, he says, Wassaheb Huma fidunya maharafa, you may
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address this issue. You may sit with your father and
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tell him, listen, listen, there is a problem here and I have to
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tell you because I love you, not because I want to be rude to
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you, but I have to be honest with you.
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You are doing this and this and this.
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Don't get upset with me. I love you.
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I respect you. And because I love you, I'm
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sharing this with you. I'm trying to be honest with
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you. Of course some parents, some
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parents would accept, I know and they would welcome this.
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Others, of course, who are very, extremely narcissistic, they are
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not going to accept this. So, but we must I really tell
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the young audience that if you see, whenever you see something
16:31
wrong in the family, you have to speak up, even if it comes from
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your father, your grandfather, even if he's the most educated
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person, the most religious. But let's, let's say he's a
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religious leader. People admire him, people look
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up to him, but he has something wrong.
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You as a son, as a daughter, you must share that with them.
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So I think this creeps out into so many relationships.
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And you mentioned family, said Ali, which is so important with
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parents as well. I had someone yesterday
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mentioned this to me. And to be honest, say this was
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on the back of your lecture when you mentioned a story about a
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daughter who ran away at the age of 22.
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And and you, you mentioned, if you don't mind me sharing, say
17:14
that you you read the text messages between the mother and
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the daughter and the mother threatening her with Hellfire.
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And we see this a lot. We see parents who say
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everything you have comes from me.
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There's a hadith of course if I'm not mistaken I'm sadjad
17:27
list, I may be wrong, where it says that everything good from
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you comes from your father. And sometimes these are hadith
17:35
or verses from the Holy Quran are weaponized by people in
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positions of authority and used against their child.
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I'm your father, you can't speak back to me.
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I'm your mother. You have to obey me before you
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obey anyone else. For example, I'm you know, the
17:49
love I have for you is is it's in comparison with Allah's fun
17:52
to Allah's love. These are the things which
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unfortunately some people hear. And at times what it then
17:58
becomes is you may have a child who either buys into it through
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indoctrination that I can't say anything.
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I, I can't speak up because I don't want to risk doing a
18:08
Tataraham or, or I don't want to risk losing my parents.
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They are my parents at the end of the day.
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Yes, they have their flaws, but I can't say anything.
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Or you have a child who reacts and then they get, you know,
18:21
pushed away themselves. By parents there is something
18:24
important and something else is more important.
18:30
Ethics, Ethics and religion is more important than anything
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else. We have a story in the Quran.
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This is an example for us, a son who was admonishing his father,
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advising his father with Kala Ibrahim Ali abihi azar attabudu
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Asnaman. Of course, here there is a
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difference, you know, in interpretation and the Sunni
18:58
tradition they say he was as or was his biological father.
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And the Shia tradition they say he was his paternal uncle.
19:07
He wasn't his biological father, but he would had the status of
19:10
being his father. He treated him like his own
19:13
father. So when he saw him doing
19:16
something wrong, worshipping idols, though Ibrahim was a
19:20
teenager at that time, maybe 15 or 16 years old, but he came and
19:26
he said to him, he said why do you do this?
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He had a nice discussion, nice argument with his father.
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So this is not about Qatar, Rahim.
19:37
When the father, the mother, the grandfather, the grandmother,
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the elder in the family is doing something wrong, insisting on
19:44
that, then, then in fact, to be to be kind to him is to tell
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him. To be dutiful to him is to tell
19:56
him. Not the not the not otherwise,
19:58
not the opposite. And if you don't tell him, this
20:01
is got Arahan. If you keep silent about it and
20:04
you don't tell him and you don't trace this issue and you keep
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him, you know you leave him doing these things.
20:10
This is got Arahan. So here amourable Maroof
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commanding what is good. Applies to all cases, to all
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members of the family, whether he's older than me, younger than
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me, he's my father, he's my friend, He's my, my spouse, my
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son. We have to, we have to address
20:29
this issue. But of course, the approach
20:31
should be very careful. You don't speak to your to your
20:35
dad the same way you speak to someone in the street because
20:38
your dad has, you know, some respect and honor and dignity
20:44
and sometimes pride. So you have to be very careful
20:48
when you speak to your dad. But the approach is, is, is
20:52
different. But definitely you need to
20:54
address this issue. I think the approach is the
20:57
keyword, you know, the way you communicate.
20:59
I think as father, son, as mother, as daughter, I think
21:03
that shapes how the conversation ends up going.
21:05
And even if things can shallow improve, say don't ask something
21:09
about abuse. We have, you know, we live in
21:14
Hamdallah. I think now in a time where
21:16
there's a lot of education to parents that you cannot abuse
21:19
your children even by, let's say, severely hitting them and
21:23
things like this, which is not encouraged when in our faiths
21:26
say it. But I think it still happens.
21:29
I know of stories where sons have been hit because they don't
21:37
make the father have a good name in the mosque, for example.
21:40
Or for example, I know of a Pipers.
21:43
You know of a friend who tells me, my dad shouts at me, he's
21:47
angry at me and he keep comparing me to my best friend
21:50
and he keeps saying, for example, I wish you were like
21:53
him or you know, I, I, I wish I had a son like him and not you.
21:57
This is one of the biggest cars until today and so and it hurts,
22:02
yes, when he lives today and he goes, for example, I, I still
22:05
have to respect my father. I still have love for him.
22:08
I still care for him and I still look out.
22:09
For him and I have to protect his dignity in front of others.
22:12
Yeah, but he goes. This is something I have lived
22:14
with until today, that even now when I see my best friend, I
22:18
can't tell him what I go through because I don't know how the
22:20
reaction would be. And he goes, I can't speak to my
22:23
sisters, I can't speak to my friends about it.
22:25
I can't even speak to my father or my mother about it.
22:29
His question is, can I speak to, for example, a consultant,
22:34
someone who's an expert in, for example, mental health?
22:37
Can I speak with the, you know, the services local authorities
22:41
provide when it comes to conversations because Muslim shy
22:43
away from this. They feel like it's just between
22:45
me and God. But is it fine to channel that
22:48
conversation with others? Absolutely, he or she should
22:53
talk to a therapist, consultant, an elder, even a friend.
22:59
Look, when God says respect your parents, it's not unconditional,
23:05
OK? Yes, we may take care of them,
23:08
help them, provided that they don't do something wrong.
23:13
But once they start, you know, hurting others, transgressing
23:17
against others, hurting their own children or even hurting
23:20
their own selves, we cannot keep silent.
23:23
We cannot keep silent. We have to tell them that this
23:28
is wrong. And if they don't listen, we
23:32
have to seek help. We have to seek help.
23:34
And the example that you gave, it's not good to keep this pain
23:39
in your heart. You're going to explode later
23:42
on. It's not good.
23:43
You have to tell your father. You have to tell someone.
23:46
You have to do something about it.
23:48
What do you mean? The reputation of my father?
23:50
He's damaging you. He's damaging a whole generation
23:54
when when parents keep, I mean chiding and scolding and
24:00
rebuking their kids, they are destroying their personality,
24:04
destroying them forever. So this should be, this should
24:08
stop. They should not continue doing
24:10
this. You know, someone has to tell
24:12
them. Someone has to tell them so they
24:15
can change. Some of them they might change
24:18
because they are unaware, unfortunately unaware.
24:20
This is the way they were brought up back home, you know,
24:24
this is the way their parents treated them.
24:27
But now, since we live in a different society, different
24:30
age, OK, these things are unacceptable.
24:34
Domestic violence is a crime, crime, a big crime, a big sin.
24:39
It should not be tolerated, neither by a son or a daughter
24:44
or a wife or a husband should not be tolerated.
24:47
I'd say just to add to this as well, because I think the
24:50
domestic violence point is a very big one, but at the same
24:54
time it's a very visible one and obvious 1.
24:56
So it's a lot of a lot of the time when we talk about abuse in
25:00
our minds, we assume something physical.
25:03
But really, I would, I don't know.
25:06
I don't have a statistic to back it up, but I imagine that a lot
25:08
of abuse is emotional and psychological and even religious
25:13
in some sense, or using religion, as I said earlier, as
25:16
a weapon for, as a tool for abuse.
25:19
I mentioned to say the other day that I have a friend who
25:23
mentioned to me that they were, they have, they've had a very
25:26
conflicted relationship with dot R because they would have a
25:30
parent who would play dot R all the time, blast it loud in the
25:34
house while they would lock them in a room or they would curse
25:37
them or compare them, as they'd said to a sibling or to a
25:40
friend. And for many years, this
25:42
individual turned away from DA and neglected DA because it
25:46
would give them Trump, you know, PTSD, traumatic memories and
25:49
experiences reliving what they went through as a young child.
25:52
And with your permission said, I also want to share something we
25:55
got sent in a message which I think is extremely relevant to
25:58
this conversation. It's it's slightly lengthy, so
26:01
forgive me. I'll try and trim it down.
26:03
This is from a sister who said I just thought I would share.
26:05
Salam alaykum. I just thought I'd share my
26:07
experience in a matter of forgiveness.
26:10
I have a family member I had to cut ties with.
26:13
She was my older narcissistic sister and I was a victim of her
26:16
for years. Only people who have had
26:18
narcissistic people in their in their lives can truly understand
26:21
what it means. For years I was belittled, made
26:24
fun of this woman managed to crush my confidence and she was
26:27
able to create distance between me and other family members.
26:30
She was an Angel in front of the whole world but even with me
26:33
when no one was looking. When I got married it got worse
26:35
as she wanted to get involved. It bothered her so much that I
26:38
had a loving and caring husband and when I, thanks to God,
26:41
finally understood that she was a narcissist, I cut ties for
26:44
good. But I do not feel any sense of
26:46
guilt as I know Allah knows best why I had to do it.
26:49
In matter of forgiveness. I wish I could forgive her while
26:52
keeping her out of my life but I don't know how to do that.
26:54
How could I forgive someone who has never apologised?
26:57
And just a very quickly last point.
26:59
We see in statistics as well that women show and profile more
27:06
cases of vulnerable and emotional narcissism and male
27:10
profile more cases of grandiose narcissism.
27:14
I achieve this. I am better than this person.
27:17
Women, for example, it's harder to spot, but it may be an
27:20
element of control, like Sayed said in a home.
27:23
Because maybe, I don't know, our communities foster that and
27:27
facilitate a case where men are treated or boys are treated
27:30
better than girls potentially in some cultures.
27:32
And women grow up feeling the need, the yearning for ownership
27:35
and possession and control. And then they turn on people
27:39
around them, maybe their their family members, their friends.
27:43
I know I'm speaking a lot, said. But I think it's a very complex
27:45
issue when it comes to families outside of the physical element
27:48
of abuse. So let's go back to the issue of
27:52
forgiveness. Whether she should forgive her
27:55
or not. Of course she has the option of
27:59
not forgiving her. It's very natural.
28:02
It's OK. But the advice we receive from
28:06
God is that when you don't forgive, it means you are
28:11
keeping the grudge in your heart.
28:14
And keeping the grudge in your heart is not good, is not good
28:18
for you yourself. You're going to be the first
28:21
victim. Those people are going to
28:24
continue their wrongdoing, you know, but also you're going to
28:28
victimize yourself, hurt yourself.
28:33
So God says if you can and it's not easy, it's not easy.
28:38
This is this is probably the most challenging thing.
28:43
Try, try to forgive, try to forgive and try to change that
28:49
person. Maybe, maybe through your
28:52
forgiveness, through your forgiveness you can change them.
28:58
One day they wake up after 20-30, forty years and when they
29:02
realize they hurt you, but you still you don't hold any grudge
29:07
against them. Maybe they would wake up, maybe
29:11
they would change through you forgiving them.
29:15
And this is what God says why in tafu a karabuli taqwa.
29:19
But if you opt for forgiveness to forgive them, it will get you
29:25
closer to healing, to the healing of the heart, the
29:29
healing of the soul. So my advice to this sister and
29:33
to many other, you know, similar, similar conditions,
29:37
similar stories, is that I know one day you cannot forgive your
29:42
father because he hurt you too much.
29:45
You cannot forgive your spouse. You cannot forgive your sister.
29:50
You're a brother. But to try to do that, try to
29:54
approach them, we must discuss these things with them.
29:58
God says do not, do not, you know, shut your mouth.
30:01
I don't want you to be silent. God does not like bad mouthing,
30:10
except if you have been wronged, you've been wronged physically,
30:14
emotionally, psychologically by someone, whether it's a family
30:18
or non family. You must address this issue do.
30:21
You mean standing up for yourself?
30:23
Absolutely, you must do that. Maybe you succeed in getting
30:27
your right back and maybe not, but your duty is to speak about
30:32
it, is to tell them. Even after 50 years, I had a,
30:41
it's very painful story. A lady approached me when I went
30:46
to America. When I went first, she said my
30:54
father sexually abused me for so many years.
30:59
And this is the very first time I hear it.
31:02
You know, live from someone. I've read stories, you know in
31:06
the news that a person who comes to me and confine in me and tell
31:11
me my father has abused me for several years, not once or
31:18
twice, several years. Can you imagine?
31:20
Wow, I was devastated. I could not sleep the first few
31:26
nights after I heard this story. So what should I do now?
31:33
Should I visit him? Should I greet him?
31:38
I said let me think about it. I didn't have an answer at that
31:44
time, but then I went back to her after a couple of weeks.
31:51
I said this is the most horrible story I've.
31:56
I've heard. You see victims of rape, but by
32:00
strangers, Yes, but not by a biological father, family.
32:05
And then it's not only one incident.
32:07
No, it's a pattern that lasted for many years, many years.
32:14
So I remember the story of the person who comes to the prophet.
32:19
It's a long story. I make it very, very short.
32:22
He said I committed a sin that I can't even mention it.
32:26
The prophet said to him, is your sin bigger or the heaven?
32:31
He said my sin is bigger than that.
32:34
Is your sin bigger or the oceans?
32:36
He said my sin. Is your sin bigger or the earth?
32:39
He said my sin is your sin bigger or Rahmatullah God's
32:45
mercy. The young man said I cannot say
32:50
my sin bigger than God's mercy. This is what we say in our
32:55
Allahumma. Nyas aduka be rahmaticality
32:58
wasyat embraces everything and then he told the Prophet.
33:04
The Prophet started to cry. He was disturbed.
33:08
He used to steal the shroud from people when they bury them in
33:13
Medina. He goes to the grave, he opens
33:16
the grave and he takes the shroud and he resell it in the
33:21
market. The caffin and his neighbour, a
33:26
young lady who was about to die and she knew about him.
33:29
She knew what he does. She said to him, listen, I
33:32
brought several caffins for you brand in you.
33:37
Lisa promised me not to come to my grave.
33:39
He said no, no, no, no, no, you are my neighbour, how can I hurt
33:42
you? She said anyways, these are
33:43
yours, take them. He took them but he said when
33:48
she was buried, Shetan came to me.
33:50
He said she's dead, go and get the coffin.
33:54
He says, I went to the cemetery, I dug the grave, I took the
33:59
coffin and they I saw her naked body.
34:03
Shetan said to me, this is an opportunity for you.
34:05
She's dead. So I had an affair with a dead
34:10
person. The prophet was crying, The
34:13
prophet was shaking. It is still, he said to him, if
34:18
you go back to God, if you sincerely go back to God, there
34:23
is a room for repentance, there is a room for forgiveness.
34:26
So we must go back to the I mean, those people, you know,
34:29
you have to tell them. You have to tell them maybe
34:33
there is a room for them to come back to wake up one day.
34:36
You cannot be silent. So I mentioned this story to
34:38
her. I said this story is more
34:40
horrible than your story. So eventually she said, I'm
34:46
willing to go back to my dad and forgive him, but it's not easy
34:51
forgiveness. We may say it and they say it on
34:54
the member. She's a big.
34:55
Person say it. But but when it comes to
34:58
practicing it, it's not easy. It's not easy.
35:00
It's very, very challenging. Then when she forgive her
35:05
father, she came to me later on, she said I feel OK now.
35:09
I feel at peace. I feel at peace.
35:14
So I think we must tell our parents, abusive parents, they
35:20
have to be told by their children.
35:22
Said. If you don't mind me asking
35:23
though, isn't that like a yearning for justice as well?
35:26
Like people want justice, they want to be, they want the abuser
35:31
to understand that this is the harm you've done to me.
35:33
And more than that, they probably don't want to inherit
35:35
the wounds that they've got and pass that on to someone else.
35:38
Because like we said, a lot of narcissists are are victims of
35:42
abuse themself. Maybe their parents neglected
35:44
them. Maybe they were disciplined to
35:46
to roughly or toughly in school and even for example, say
35:50
mentioned about hitting, you know, even I'll hand a lot less
35:55
so now, but probably a few decades ago in many Sunday
35:58
schools or Arabic schools or or language schools, you know,
36:01
you'd have teachers who would be who would throw things or hit
36:05
children, hit students. And sometimes when you grow up
36:09
and you you inherit these things and pass it on.
36:11
The forgiveness element is so critical and I think we often
36:14
overlook it. We think this is idealistic, but
36:18
how about in the sense of I know and I know what you're going to
36:22
say, said you're probably going to I maybe you're wrong, but I
36:24
assume you'll say all lies. Obviously Will will will deal
36:27
with people in his own way, but what can you say to people who
36:31
are victims and who feel like they have been hard done by
36:35
they. Want to see justice in this?
36:36
They want, they want to know that allies is is going to
36:39
protect me and also going to bring justice.
36:43
Justice has to be served, no doubt about it.
36:48
And you just mentioned, you know what I'm going to say.
36:54
But sometimes we think through justice.
36:59
We're going to help, but we might hurt you, might damage the
37:06
entire family. You try to, you know, correct
37:10
one thing, but you end up destroying many things.
37:14
So it depends on the gravity of the situation.
37:18
Sometimes, yes, justice has to be served.
37:21
But sometimes God says also in the Quran that you need to
37:26
approach this sensitive, you know, issue in a very subtle
37:30
way. In a very subtle way God says in
37:34
the Quran, in Allahilayu hebbo and tashi al fahashafa ladina,
37:38
Amen. God hates for the fahasha
37:41
Fahasha, the bad news, Shameful. The news of the shameful acts,
37:46
shameful acts are fashion. Shameful acts like, you know,
37:50
fornication, adultery, whatever, whatever.
37:54
If you try to bring it up, make it public, it would hurt more.
37:59
In this case, it will damage more.
38:02
So you, you have tried to, to to, you know, serve justice, but
38:06
in a very subtle way, in a very subtle way.
38:09
If you can do it within a small number of people, do it.
38:12
Don't go to the court, don't go to the media, don't go to, you
38:16
know, to the public, don't mention it to your friends.
38:20
So because sometimes the hurt is much bigger, it's much bigger.
38:25
It destroys the father, the mother, the entire family, the
38:29
children themselves. You know, sometimes they get
38:32
separated from each other. So do it with a minimum damage.
38:37
Be careful, try to consult, try to consult some expert and tell
38:42
them I'm in this situation. What do you suggest?
38:46
Because some people, maybe the father has done something wrong
38:49
to them. But when they go and make it
38:52
very public, they hurt definitely they hurt the father,
38:57
which might, might deserve it. You know, some of the parents,
39:00
they deserve it, but they hurt their community too.
39:05
Let's say, let's say in a scenario the government comes
39:09
and it closes down the school or the, OR the center or the mosque
39:14
or they sometimes in some countries, they take the kids
39:17
away from their parents completely away.
39:20
So, you know, we have to balance things.
39:24
We have to see which one is less harm, which approach is less
39:28
harmful. And we we pursue that path.
39:31
Sense, sense and that justice and we all, you know, as you're
39:34
speaking about justice, I was thinking of, you know, we look
39:37
at Palestine today and we look at Lebanon today and we say, you
39:40
know, sometimes we ask, where's God's justice?
39:43
You know what's happening? But you know, our belief tells
39:46
us, you know, we'll get that there's akhara Allah, Mohdi.
39:49
I mean, we will see that justice.
39:51
No, say it, Ali. Not just justice in the akhara,
39:54
Definitely, definitely. But people want to see justice
39:58
here. Someone, someone who lost his
40:00
home and his parents and everything he possesses and he's
40:05
being displaced and he has no imagine people now kids in Gaza
40:10
who lost everything. They have no hope.
40:12
You cannot tell him. Oh, wait for the akhara Allah.
40:14
No, no, no here justice. We have to.
40:18
First, serve justice here. Leave the rest with God on the
40:21
akhara. Akhara has a different story.
40:24
But here we, we must, we must, we have to, you know, stand up
40:28
for justice. And this is what God says.
40:31
I sent all the messengers, the prophets, the apostles, the
40:34
books, the scriptures, Leopom and Nassau Belquist.
40:39
Justice is served. You cannot just postpone this
40:41
until the akhara. You have to do everything
40:44
possible, everything possible to, you know, to, to serve
40:50
justice. To serve justice those
40:52
criminals, they have to see the result of their work.
40:57
So do you know when we talk about how to recover or heal
41:03
from someone who is, is, you know, kind of displays these
41:07
tendencies You mentioned forgiveness and the way we see
41:13
someone of of that nature. I wanted to ask specifically in
41:17
regards to distance or space. We hear stories, for example, of
41:22
youth who suffer from abusive parents and take the opportunity
41:27
to leave home as soon as they can, as soon as they're of
41:30
working age and they are somewhat independent
41:33
financially. And also other cases of people
41:36
who unfortunately, I heard yesterday, someone who even
41:39
mentioned to me that they are considering to move abroad to
41:42
get away from their abusive father.
41:44
And these are very real. This is some someone who
41:46
mentioned this to me in the mosque.
41:48
These are very real scenarios. How does one know when to, I
41:54
don't want to say give up trying, but when to kind of
41:57
create a space to develop recovery, develop healing?
42:02
And is that the right thing to do from the Islamic perspective?
42:05
It depends on the situation. If the victim tries to correct
42:11
the situation, to raise awareness, to tell his parents
42:16
that this is not right, but they don't understand him, they are
42:20
reluctant, they think that what they do is legitimate, is right
42:25
and he's wrong or she's wrong, then in this case, definitely
42:29
distance is very necessary, very necessary to move out.
42:34
We would never say, a person like me, I would never say that
42:38
always running out of family is, is, is bad.
42:41
No, sometimes it's, it's a must. It's a must.
42:46
You must salvage yourself because if you stay there,
42:49
you're going to be destroyed. You tried, you know, many, many
42:53
times you did not succeed. People are not listening to you.
42:57
People are dead. You're going to destroy yourself
43:00
and God does not want this to happen to you.
43:03
You have to salvage yourself. This is like the hedgera.
43:06
When we leave this country, you go to another country because
43:10
you could not. You could not, you know, you've
43:12
tried your best, live like a human being.
43:14
So you have to leave your home. So sometimes the hedgera is when
43:18
you leave your parents home because you cannot live there.
43:22
I know in America we have many reverts or converts and when
43:28
their families, they find out about them, they converted to
43:32
Islam, they give them difficult time.
43:37
They cannot practice. Not only they cannot practice,
43:42
they, they harass them, they pressure them, they hurt them
43:47
psychologically, emotionally, sometimes even physically.
43:51
So in this case, they come to me.
43:52
What should I do? So you have to leave.
43:55
You have to leave here. So sometimes it is healthy.
43:59
You must do that. You must do so, you must leave,
44:02
you must take a distance, go abroad, go somewhere else where
44:06
you can find freedom, you can recover.
44:08
Recovery takes many years and also your parents would realise
44:13
what they did. You know, it's a message, it's a
44:16
message to them. You cannot hit back that you can
44:19
leave. And God says whoever leaves
44:22
Yejit, fill out of the Moragam and Allah will find him, you
44:26
know, a refuge, a place, you know, where he can rebuild.
44:31
Himself or herself. Beautiful.
44:34
Sometimes we think what may be bad could actually be good.
44:37
That's interesting. You know, I've never heard it
44:40
this way. Yeah.
44:40
When someone says, you know, it may be better for you to leave,
44:44
think of it now. Yeah, because.
44:46
So do you know what I heard on Instagram 2 days ago?
44:48
Home is not where you grew up or where you went to school.
44:50
It's where you find the best version of yourself and that
44:55
could be somewhere which is a foreign land, a foreign place.
44:58
It could be in the community, what whatever possibility.
45:00
This is rephrasing of what Imam Ali Ali has Salaam said.
45:04
Rephrasing it says Heiral Biladima Hamelik, Lama Hamelik.
45:08
The best home is the place where it can host you and take care of
45:15
you and embraces you, not a place where it overburdens you.
45:22
Whether it's a family, whether it's a country or a village or
45:26
environment, if that environment hurts you and overburdens you,
45:30
it's not your fault. Home.
45:31
It's not home. Home is beside Hussein's Dome.
45:35
Say that you know there's another type of suffering I I
45:39
think maybe we can move the conversation here towards the
45:41
end, which is you know, I when I was young say it, I knew people
45:47
suffered. I have so much grey hair that's.
45:50
The wisdom. I used to always hear, for
45:53
example, people suffering from mental health issues or people
45:57
going through depression, be it severe or mild, even, you know,
46:00
forms of anxiety. Some people can have panic
46:03
attacks and things like this. And when I was young, when
46:06
people used to discuss this topic, they used to say these
46:09
people lack faith. These people, you know, they
46:11
don't have true belief in Allah as they were just spinal matala.
46:14
But you know, science and medicine proves at the moment
46:18
that some people, this is not faith.
46:20
They actually struggle with this.
46:22
What do we say to like parents? Because there are brothers and
46:25
sisters out there say it who go to, for example, they tell their
46:28
father, you know, you know, dad, I, I think I'm depressed.
46:32
I think, for example, the exams are stressing me out.
46:34
The, the social pressures around me, my friends, the peer
46:37
pressure. I can't hack this.
46:39
I can't deal. You know, I want to please
46:41
Allah. But at the same time, you know,
46:42
this was of Shaitaan. And for example, I, I, I, I
46:46
build a form of anxiety like I, I want to be with my friends, be
46:50
them good or bad, but I also want to please Allah.
46:52
Now that's one level, another level.
46:54
Someone may go for a traumatic experience, they enter
46:56
depression or they enter, you know, the likes of PTSD and
46:59
things like this. And we tell them, you know,
47:01
believe in Allah, faith in Allah, read Quran, read, read,
47:05
go on Ziara, you'll become better.
47:06
What do we tell people that suffer from?
47:08
We tell them what God said to the prophet.
47:11
Who is the strongest person on earth.
47:13
In your opinion? Who is he?
47:16
On Earth. Yes.
47:18
Ourselves. Prophet Muhammad, he was
47:22
supported by God, he kept supporting him and if using him
47:30
with with, with, with energy, with power, with empowerment,
47:35
with hope, always supporting him, taking care of him, you
47:41
know, backing him. But to still, God says to him, I
47:45
know sometimes you get depressed, sometimes you get
47:49
anxiety. We know, we know you get
47:56
irritated, you get anxious by what they say against you
47:59
because the attack was so huge on him and he's a human being.
48:03
He's a human being. He gets depressed, he gets
48:07
anxious, he can't sleep the night, he gets worried because
48:11
he's a human being. He's a he's not a machine, he's
48:14
a human being. So it happens to all people.
48:18
If it happens to the Prophet, it happens to me, It happens to
48:20
you, it happens to Ahmed, OK. It's just like physical illness.
48:25
Physical illness. Sometimes your stomach hurts,
48:28
OK? Even if you are a Prophet, even
48:30
if you are Imam Ali, even if you are a Muslim, you get sick, you
48:34
get food poisoning. We believe that the Prophet died
48:37
of food poisoning, OK, Physical illness.
48:41
Same thing with mental illness. It happens, but the difference
48:46
is that faith would enable us, will enable us to overcome this
48:52
and to heal. If we have faith in God, we'll
48:55
open a window of opportunity for us to heal better and maybe
49:01
faster. OK, God would not let you, you
49:05
know, suffer from that forever. He would help you.
49:08
Maybe you suffer for two months, two years, 10 years, but at the
49:13
end you're going to recover. But that doesn't say only pray
49:19
or only read Quran. Because I've seen some parents,
49:21
oh, go, go, go pray. You'll, you'll.
49:24
He's praying and nothing is happening.
49:25
No, it's not only that. It's not only prayers of Doha or
49:28
Quran. These things not El atam El
49:33
anakasa, meaning these are not the entire reason, part of the
49:37
reason, the other parts, medication, sometimes
49:40
medication, this is a chemical imbalance in your brain.
49:44
It would not go away by reading the dua or or or the prayers.
49:49
There are two elements of healing in this life and both of
49:53
them are found in the Quran, have roots in the Quran. 1 is
49:57
the divine element, which is the dua, divine intervention.
50:02
The second one is the physical element, human intervention, a
50:07
prophet of Benny Israel, he got sick and they told him to go to
50:11
the Hakim. At that time they called him
50:12
Hakim, the doctor, He said no, no, I'm not going to go to Hakim
50:17
because God is the one who made me sick.
50:19
He's going to heal me. Allah sent Jibrail to him.
50:23
He said to him, listen, if you don't go to the Hakim to the
50:26
doctor's office, I'm not going to heal you.
50:29
You have to go there. Once you you try, you go, you
50:33
take the medicine, I will heal you.
50:35
Yes, I will heal you. So the sometimes we forget, we
50:39
think it's only the divine intervention.
50:41
But Allah says in the Quran, yes, Allah has the healer.
50:46
But at the same time there are certain physical elements like
50:50
like hasil, hasil, dhani, Allah says about it in the Quran.
50:55
Fihi shifa only Nas. Yes, Allah says about the Quran
51:00
itself. Shifa only mafa sudur, the
51:03
revelation. This is the spiritual one, but
51:06
the physical one is the honey. The combination of both.
51:10
Both of them are important. Some people do not believe in
51:12
the spiritual or the divine. They say no, I just go to the
51:16
doctor. I don't care.
51:17
I don't pray. This is wrong.
51:19
Others they say, I only pray. I'm not going to see the doctor.
51:22
This is wrong too. You both.
51:24
You have to combine both of them.
51:26
Yeah. I sent them said I have one last
51:30
question with your permission from me and then I think we can
51:33
wrap up because I know we are on short time.
51:38
I think one of the things narcissists or people like that
51:41
tend to displays this yearning for control and to control the
51:45
environment around them. Making sure everyone is in the
51:49
rightful place and that those who they think that they have
51:52
authority over are doing things as per their will, the will of
51:56
the narcissist. So sometimes as a victim, it's
52:00
frightening. Like it's it you need courage.
52:03
You need a lot of courage to do something like to speak, to
52:06
confront them or to approach them and give them news.
52:10
And like you mentioned yesterday said in your lecture, a good
52:13
parent is someone who's approachable.
52:16
You mentioned the example of a father being the first one that
52:19
a daughter should go to if she has the interest of marriage.
52:22
And it got me thinking that there are those who don't have
52:26
that ability, like they don't have that present parent
52:29
available. Or if they have a parent
52:32
accessible, maybe they're not approachable.
52:35
And just the thought of it. And I have, I have seen in my
52:38
own life instances through friends or family who have
52:41
struggled with the thought of approaching a parent to share
52:44
their own life updates, to give them their own wills and
52:47
desires. I don't want to study this
52:48
degree. I want to do something else that
52:50
I want to do. I don't want to marry this
52:52
person that you're forcing me to marry or some some sort of news.
52:55
What advice would you give to people who seek courage?
52:59
Like they know what to do. They know to forgive, they know
53:02
to confront advice Amrabel Maharoof But maybe have that
53:07
they need that courage. They need that that support
53:10
internally. It's requires, I agree with you,
53:13
Haj Ahmed, it requires a lot of courage to confront and face
53:19
your parents and tell them something very critical to tell
53:23
them, no, I'm not going to marry this, my first cousin.
53:26
I know you dream of that. You love me, you love to see me
53:29
marrying my first cousin, but that does not work for me.
53:32
It requires a lot of care, but we have to do that.
53:36
You have to gather your energy one day, seek help from Allah,
53:41
ask him for courage, and then you have to say, because this
53:46
will change the course of your life.
53:49
If you submit to the will of your parents, which in, in some
53:53
cases, in some cases it's not good, it's not good, you know,
53:59
then that will change the course of your life.
54:03
And God does not want us to be subordinate to anyone, does not
54:08
want the the son to be subordinate to his parents or
54:11
the wife to be subordinate to her husband.
54:14
God wants us to be free. I always say life is about
54:18
cooperation and mutual understanding.
54:21
Mutual understanding, OK? You cannot accept orders from
54:27
someone who, who is narcissistic and he thinks this is what is
54:33
good for you. And he he's not willing to open
54:35
up. He's not even willing to listen
54:37
to you. God doesn't say, yeah, listen to
54:40
him and please him because he's your dad.
54:43
So those people, they have to do, they have to get
54:48
encouragement from their friends, OK, They have to seek
54:53
consultation. The best thing in this
54:55
situation, when you don't know what to do, you are confused,
54:59
seek consultation. People are going to encourage
55:02
you. People are going to hold your
55:04
hand and help you out and show you the way.
55:08
So eventually we have to tell the parents, I don't like this.
55:11
You know, you want me to go to this school.
55:13
I don't want you want me to be a physician, a lawyer.
55:16
My interest is something else. You want me to marry my second
55:21
cousin or first cousin as many parents want?
55:25
No, I have another plan for myself.
55:27
Or some of them, they say they they force their kids to marry
55:31
now and the daughter is not ready psychologically,
55:35
emotionally, she's not ready or the boy is not ready.
55:38
We don't have to. Please.
55:40
I know someone, a friend of mine was not ready for marriage, was
55:49
not ready for marriage. But because his grandmother kept
55:55
insisting on her, because she she told him, I want to see the
55:58
day of your wedding before I die.
56:00
This is my wish. So he tried to grant her her
56:05
wish. And he married the wrong person.
56:08
And now he's suffering. The grandmother is gone.
56:10
You know, Shallah to paradise with well done in Mukhaledun.
56:15
She's enjoying her time there and this guy is here on earth is
56:18
still suffering and this is not right.
56:21
This is not justice. Tell her inshallah.
56:24
You know, I'll send you pictures.
56:26
You know when you go there you will see pictures.
56:29
Yeah, have you seen it? So can I ask the final question
56:33
from me, And this is one because I do have two daughters, Hamdul,
56:37
Allah's blessed children. Congratulations on Jenna's
56:40
birthday. The, the, the eldest, you know,
56:44
in less than two years she'll be, you know, going into the age
56:47
of tech leaf. I can say, what would you say is
56:51
a advice for myself and other fathers out there like me who
56:56
have children who will soon approach, let's say the age of
56:58
nine and there'll be responsibilities given to their
57:01
daughters living in this day and age, living in the West, you
57:04
know, the environments of be it the USA and America, the UK,
57:08
they're quite similar. The challenges and the
57:10
difficulties and the pressures that we face living in the
57:11
society. What advice can we tell our
57:14
children to help them, you know, face challenges?
57:18
In this case, in this specific case, I believe the best thing
57:22
is to provide them with a safe and healthy environment.
57:28
Yeah, to be prepared for her future because if she is
57:32
isolated from the rest of the society, if she is isolated from
57:38
good people like her, it would be extremely difficult for her
57:42
to accept the idea of hijab and and and other religious duties.
57:47
But when there is a good environment around her,
57:49
encouraging environment, it will make the journey so much easy
57:53
for her. I've seen similar cases.
57:56
People had to move in the United States from one state into
58:00
another. So they cannot provide this safe
58:03
environment for their kids. So by the time of, you know,
58:07
tech leave or the age of puberty, the the the girl is
58:11
ready for that. And it, it really helped them.
58:14
It helped them a great deal because only parents cannot, you
58:18
know, cannot do this environment.
58:21
You need a huge environment it. Takes a village to raise a
58:24
child. Absolutely.
58:26
Thank you so much. Thank you for all your guidance,
58:29
your wisdom and your advice. I think there's a lot of people
58:33
who will really benefit inshallah.
58:34
I know we definitely have. I feel like we could probably
58:37
speak for another two or three. Hours.
58:38
I've got about 300 questions. Honestly, there's.
58:40
A million, a million questions to discuss, but this is where
58:44
you guys are very much needed. So please leave your comments,
58:48
your suggestions, your feedback in in the comment section below
58:52
and let us know what you think. Is there any lessons that you've
58:54
learned? Is there anything which has
58:56
really helped you, which you want people around to benefit
58:59
from as well? Say, is there any way where
59:01
people can maybe get in touch with you or can I know you
59:04
probably just swamped at the moment through any questions,
59:12
but yeah, thank you so much, said Ali.
59:15
Any last words? No, happy you were saying.
59:16
Thank you so much. I appreciate the time and you
59:19
know all the advice you've given here today.
59:21
And Sharla, you have to fee and all that you do and continue
59:25
doing the service, the beautiful service that you do for the
59:27
community around the world. Thank you.
59:30
Thank you, thank you, said Ali and thanks to the producer and
59:34
say most about people who are say most about to old people who
59:37
are watching and listening and may Allah bless you all the
59:40
Sharla. Harben sisters, we will see you
59:43
next week in shot. Allah take care of some.