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Why Islam Can't Survive Criticism — The Real Phobia | Danny Burmawi · Infidels

• Richard Landes: Danny Burmawi. We're we're back with Danny Burmaui to talk about the flip side of Islamophobia, and that is Islam's phobia, which is actually Danny, explain to us what you mean when you say that the real phobia here is not the fear of Islam, it's Islam's fear. Danny Burmawi: Yes, thank you, Richard. It's always an honor to be with you. So the term Islamophobia is made up and it doesn't serve anything actually, if you think about it. Let's let's look at it this way. If someone is discriminating against Muslims in the West, would Muslims be able to go to the authorities and Get justice through the current laws? Do they need a special law to give them justice or to protect them? Of course not. Try to incite violence against Muslims without Islamophobia, and they will be able to sue you. And you know, they will be served through the laws of the land. Now What is the reason behind Islamophobia? The reason is to manufacture something similar to anti Semitism. Antisemitism is real. It is the oldest hatred in recorded history. So, and it's not targeting the ideology or the ideas that Jews believe in. You can criticize, obviously, the Torah, Moses. You can criticize Judaism, you can criticize the Talmud, you can make up things about the Talmud, and nobody is gonna know Jew or Richard Landes: Question whether David ever existed. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, it's like this is this is what Jews have been doing for thousands of years themselves. Just read the Talmud and you will see that they never agree in anything, right? so and beside that, no Jew is gonna come after you to behead you or to kill you for criticizing Judaism. So anti-Semitism has a certain Role, it's it's it's something that was born out of necessity. Now, Islamophobia supposedly it serves a goal to protect Muslims, but is that true? No, because Muslims can can be protected without that law, but it but Jews they were not protected without the laws against anti-Semitism. This is number one. Number two, anti-Semitism. It's not against as I said ideas, it's against people. Islamophobia, is it against people or is it against the idea? It's like if you criticize Islam, you're called Islamophobe, right? Why this conflation of Muslims and Islam together? What is the point? The point is to protect Islam from scrutiny. Why? Because Islam does not tolerate dissent. If you criticize Islam You expose Islam. This is number one. Islam retreats. Islam cannot stand in face of criticism. But number two, this is rooted in the culture from which Islam was born. You know, look at the Islamic word today. Look at the word broadly. The president of the United States of America, the greatest country in the world. You can criticize him and he doesn't care. He won't even if you if you curse him on t on national TV. He's Richard Landes: Even if he does care, he can't do a lot about it. Right. Danny Burmawi: not he's not going to I I remember reading a story I'm not sure which president he was in the seventies. He he really wanted to go after some dissenters and he hired a legal firm To help him find loopholes in the constitution in order to punish his enemies. So he had to appeal to the law in order to do that. In the Islamic world, in the Arab world, if you dare to say anything against the president or the king, well you will disappear. The secret police, they're gonna pick you up from your bed and you will disappear. and of course you will be accused of like a thousand different things. So this is the reflection this is the reflection of the theological system behind Western democracies and Islamic the Islamic world. Because in Islam the honor shame culture your reputation is everything that you have. And it's superficial. You can be like doing horrible things, but as long as your reputation on the surface is intact, then you're fine. That is why I'm sorry, go ahead. Richard Landes: In fact right. In fact you could actually you could actually say that behaving badly, which is using violence, is a way to maintain respect, which is more vital to honor than good opinion. So in fact in an honor culture, the violent are respected. Danny Burmawi: Yes, it's about power. Because don't forget that Islam came out of the Arab Peninsula, it's a desert environment, n very difficult, very harsh environment, and the powerful survived, the weak was not able to survive. So if you're powerful, then you're respected, you're feared, and that was reflected in Islam. Islam sanctified that. and made it a religion and Allah in the imagination of Muslims is a copy is identical to any Arab dictator because the political system in a land in the land is der direct result of the theological system. This is my belief. And that is that is why, by the way, Arab families, Muslim families, they do not report child abuse, for example. Because if you are ab if your children are abused by someone, a family member, let's say, telling the truth and suing the perpetrator is going to damage your reputation. So you it's better for you, yeah. Richard Landes: As well as that as well as that. Danny Burmawi: You yeah, of course yeah, as well as theirs, but your reputation also will be jeopardized. So it's better for you to hide it and ignore it as if nothing happened rather than getting exposed because people are going to shame you. Even if you have been raped, you will be sh shamed by in the by the culture. Richard Landes: Right. I mean that's true in any Danny Burmawi: And that that is why the last thing I want to say, that is why actually, because many people misunderstand Islam. They think that Islam cares about homosexuality and that for purity reasons, Islam prohibited homosexuality. That is not true. Islam prohibits homosexuality because in an Islamic land, to be, you know, in a homosexual relationship, there is a bottom and there is top. To be at the bottom as a Muslim, that is a disaster because Muslims must always be on the top. So it's a supremacist understanding of the word. That's why homosexuality is punished in Islam. Richard Landes: Right, right. By the way, right, by the way, the Romans had the same thing. It was the unpenetrated penetrator who was the real man. Danny Burmawi: Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Richard Landes: Yeah, yeah. So yeah. All right. So now you said something earlier which I wanna talk further about. You said Islam cannot stand up to criticism. What did you mean by that? Danny Burmawi: So Judaism and Christianity made enough room for scholars and intellectuals all throughout history to examine scripture. Richard Landes: Well, in modern times. In modern times. Right. Danny Burmawi: In modern times, of course, yeah, in modern times. to examine scripture Richard Landes: And you're saying that Danny Burmawi: and history and everything. So if we go back to the eighteenth century, for example, in Germany, Christian they call them liberal schools, They they completely demolished like everything sacred in Christianity and they peeled even the person of Jesus and you know we they came up with this chronological Jesus versus historical Jesus and there there was nothing spurred, everything was under under examination. Now that solidified or strengthened Christianity and the Christian scripture for example. Now we have twenty-four thousand script, I believe, that testifies to the authenticity of the Bible, Old Testament or New Testament. we we know that we have the Bible that was passed down all throughout the generations. Christian doctrines, we know the root behind every doctrine. So anyway In Islam, there was no room for that for examination, for challenging the text, challenging the authority of Muhammad. Never happened in Islamic history. Anyone who would dare to do that, get killed. we have a few examples throughout Islamic history of people who tried to question the infallibility of the Quran or the infallibility of Muhammad, and they ended up executed. So that is why today when you try to examine Islam, which is a trend that started, I would say, 30 years ago in the Arab world, even though we had like few people before that, but the trend started like 20 to 32 30 years ago, where we have now thousands of people questioning the Quran, questioning Muhammad, and it's very obvious that Islam is so so weak because it is very easy to prove that Islam is behind violence, Islam is behind it ha has supremacy in it. Islam is against women, Islam super charges sexuality, all the customs that Islam mandated on Muslims they lead to social dysfunction. And so forth and so on. So that is why you can Muslims don't want Islam to be challenged or to be criticized, not only because it's sacred, but because it's very weak when you when you put it to examination. Now, the West, unfortunately, the West turned Islam into something like a profound philosophical system, spiritual system. That that doesn't exist. That is just, you know. some people trying to appropriate Islamic text to fit logic and reason and philosophy. Richard Landes: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Are you saying that there are no non supremacist Muslim teachings? That there aren't I mean, Danny Burmawi: Yeah, it doesn't doesn't exist. Richard Landes: in in the West in the West we think that the Sufis represent a school of Islam which is not supremacist and which has deep spiritual meaning. Danny Burmawi: No, not really. Look at the history of the Sufist. They were very violent. Look at their history in India. there is like great resources to tell you the truth about even the Sufists. But of course like there are different Islamic schools where they certain groups were affected by the culture around them. but that doesn't change the nature of Islam itself. So when we are talking about the core, the core is supremacist. Now, of course, you can take whatever you want from Islam. Islam is like a shop. You can take whatever you want from it. But Richard Landes: A supermarket. Danny Burmawi: yeah, a supermarket. When when you when you put it together, it's supremacist. But you can, of course, because of abrogation, if you completely dismiss abrogation, the concept of abrogation or verses cancel other verses. Richard Landes: Later versus can't earlier. Danny Burmawi: You you can yeah, you you can get few things from here and there. But Islam the historical revisionism in Islam is is catastrophic. It's like for example, they accuse Arabs before Islam to be barbaric, they would bury their children, they would do this and that. That's like that is not true actually. If you read about Arabs before Islam, women were we're leaders in the community. Muhammad's first wife, she was a trader, she was a merchant, she she she was a businesswoman. So that is not honest. there is like exaggeration in order to give Islam some credit, but I don't think Islam did anything about Islam, let me put it this way Islam did not introduce anything original that is good. For humanity. Nothing. Richard Landes: All right. All right. All right. All right. let's I'd like to p pursue the issue that you've raised, which is that in a sense, Islam, and I think this is true of medieval Christianity as well, is deeply hostile to the kinds of questions and critical analysis of modernity. It turns out and and you know. Jews don't like being told the Bible it was composed in twelve different layers by various people with political agendas. But if I understand what you're saying, both Christians and Jews manage to take the hit and still go on. Whereas you're saying Islam cannot take the hit of the kind of criticism that if we use the same standards as we Modernity has used in regards to Judaism and Christianity, it couldn't take that kind of criticism. And therefore, it has put pressure on the West not to criticize it. And it does that by claiming that if they do criticize it, in the same way that they criticize Judaism and Christianity, they're Islamophobia. Danny Burmawi: What you said is one hundred percent correct. Islam cannot stand scrutiny the same way Christianity and Judaism do. But I d I slightly disagree with the premise. I don't believe that Christianity the medieval Christianity is similar to Islam today, for example. many people say that Islam is in Richard Landes: You know you know you're arguing with a medievalist. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, I know, but here's here's my here's my argument. Richard Landes: All right. Danny Burmawi: my argument is this many people think that Islam is an embryonic version of Christianity and it will eventually grow out of this face. my disagreement with that, based on scripture, the canonical scripture. Christians in the medieval times, they were not using scripture, they were using the religious authority that the scripture gave them. So th there was no text, for example, Richard Landes: All right. Danny Burmawi: go and burn witches or heretics. So it it Richard Landes: Right. Well actually there was there was one about witches. And it comes from the Hebrew Bible and the Jews never did it. Once the Protestants got a hold of it, they started burning women in the hundreds and thousands. Okay, go ahead. Danny Burmawi: No, I yeah, I I I agree that in the Old Testament there there's violence for sure, but we also also it's different in nature. The violence in the Old Testament is limited to time and but in Richard Landes: Right, right. Right. Yes. Danny Burmawi: Islam it's prescriptive. It's it fits Richard Landes: It's free screen. Danny Burmawi: all time and old geography. It's there's no restrictions on the commandments of Allah. for example, when God talked to Joshua in Exodus, I'm sorry, in the in the b in the old testament, you cannot take that and go and apply it today. Even if you even Richard Landes: Right, right. Danny Burmawi: if you decide to do that, it's different than when Allah is telling you all the infidels, all the infidels, fight the un infidels. Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: That is different. Richard Landes: Right, right, right, right. I I I read somewhere that the amount of text dedicated to infidels in the Quran and in the Hadith and in the sort of historical literature is really exceptional in comparison with other sacred texts. Right. So but but w but let me Danny Burmawi: I I challenge you to open the Quran randomly. Any page in the Quran that doesn't mention the infidels, I will pay you a million dollars. Any page. Negatively, of course, of course. Richard Landes: Right, and and negative. And negatively. Of course. Okay. So yes, and that's one of the things that at Infidel Awareness Month we're trying to get people to realize is that if you're a non-Muslim, you may not think you're an infidel, but somebody does. And and you can't afford to ignore them because they've targeted you. Okay. So so but let me push back a little on what you said about Christianity in the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages, and I agree with you that it was not based prof in any sort of serious way on biblical texts, but on rel claims to religious authority, the Christian there was a Christian supremacist strand that had power that In instituted the Inquisition that in fact raised crusades not against Muslims but about against fellow Christians and so on, and that it's not really until the modern period that we get the ability of Christians to live with other denominations as well as with Jews, at least that's been the the experience so far, in modern democracies. So the question is. is it possible to for let me put it this way, is it possible for Muslims to listen to the criticisms, take the hit, and come back with a more robust and resilient Islam that isn't so hypersensitive to any criticism that it You know, sees it as blasphemy and and a death sense. Danny Burmawi: What you described demands some room for freedom and conscience and reasoning with the text that doesn't exist in Islam Richard Landes: Well. Danny Burmawi: at all, because in Islam good and evil, they're decided by not the nature of the action itself. but whether God ordains them or not, or God commands them or not. So it is it is Michael utilitarian system that I'm sorry it's the deontological system not utilitarian I wish if Islam was somehow utilitarian it's deontological it's like the text says so and the text is good. So it doesn't matter if I believe what the text is saying is not good or the result, the outcome of that commandment is evil. That my the way I see it, my perception of the outcome doesn't change the fact that the text is good. So that is that is the problem in Islam. Your conscience in Islam is a rebellion against God. It's not It's not like in Judaism or in Christianity because we believe in Genesis when Jacob wrestled with the angel, he emerged as Israel. So that wrestling was a transformative. In Islam, there's no wrestling. It is a slave mentality. You are only ordered to believe so and to do so and so. That that projection of our Judeo-Christian understanding of God and man onto Islam is the reason behind why we keep misunderstanding it. You cannot do that. Islam is a completely different system that doesn't allow for what it takes to achieve what you just described. Richard Landes: All right, so now let me introduce a notion. We've discussed it before. I'm exploring it. Look, y you're right, we Westerners, whether Jewish or Christian or, you know, post religious, progressive, we want to think the best of people. And so we tend to project and say things like I'm sure the vast majority of Muslims are moderate, and then we get people like President Obama who tells us that ninety-nine point nine percent of the Muslims in the world Are moderate and reject these middle medieval ideas, which is clearly not the case, but okay. but but you know, leave the room open for a neighborly Muslim. And and by neighborly I mean and I don't know how to pronounce it, al-wala wal bara. Danny Burmawi: Always, yes. Richard Landes: Yeah. Okay, so as I understand for the supremacists, this means. you know, love the your fellow Muslim and hate the infidel. And so any Muslim who makes friends with an infidel is from that point of view betraying what being a Muslim is. Is that correct? Danny Burmawi: There's there's some nuances here. Richard Landes: Okay. Danny Burmawi: b befriending non Muslims is not ex like precisely or explicitly prohibited in Islam. but it depends which verses you look at. Again, the supermarket concept. but al walaw al bara or being loyal to Muslims and hating the non Muslims is not something that you do on a personal level. It is something that would it's a civilizational thing. So pledging allegiance to Allah and to Muslims must always be a priority. Now, having a Christian friend or a Jewish friend, that that is that is okay as long as you are not compromising your religion. Now, there are certain hadiths of Muhammad. Richard Landes: So when so wait a minute, so when push comes to shove, you can have Christian and Jewish friends, but when push comes to shove, you have to side with your fellow Muslim who in many cases or often enough is going to be a supremacist Muslim who plans to subject or kill your friends, your infidel friends. Danny Burmawi: From an Islamic perspective and from a mainstream Islamic perspective, to be very clear, you cannot side with the non Muslim, even if they are right. You have always to protect your Muslim brother and sister. That is like there's Richard Landes: My side right. Danny Burmawi: no no debate about this. Anyone who tells you there Richard Landes: There's no Danny Burmawi: is a debate about it is mistaken. Richard Landes: Okay, so so in other words, you're saying my fantasy of a neighborly Muslim, which is a Muslim who can live next to me, who's not going to be insulted if I don't want to convert to Islam, who's not gonna listen to who's not gonna bristle and take vengeance for any criticism that I might express either of him or his religion, and who's willing to you know, literally to commit to a peaceful relationship with me, despite what his supremacist Muslim co religionists say is a fantasy. There's no such thing as a Muslim like that. Danny Burmawi: Let me let me share a story with you I just shared with Glenn Beck this morning, and that would help Richard Landes: Okay. Danny Burmawi: shed light on this and answer the question. So Richard Landes: Okay. Good. Danny Burmawi: in 2016 there was a Jordanian leftist Christian journalist who was anti Zionism, pro-Islam, pro-Arabs. he wrote a book about Hassan Nasrullah, praising Hassan Nasullah. And he wrote a t a t an article and the title was Muhammad our national symbol. So he was trying to Richard Landes: was a good Christian Arab nationalist who wanted who wanted Danny Burmawi: Yeah, exactly. So he was Richard Landes: Muslim supremacists to accept him. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, I even though he was he was on the Shia side more than the Sony side, but still he was really he was sincere because I I know his family personally. He was sincere. but anyway, in two thousand sixteen he shared a caricature that was a Tunisian artist painted. And the caricature is Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: how ISIS imagined Allah in paradise giving women Richard Landes: Uh-huh. Danny Burmawi: to Muslims and you know multiple women and they are having like threesoms or some something like that. So it was it was but it it was very Richard Landes: Right. This kind of function. Danny Burmawi: clear this is how ISIS imagined God. Okay, and Muslims and Muslims they claim that ISIS don't represent Islam. Right? But Richard Landes: Right, right. Danny Burmawi: of course the caricature, it was smart because that is what all Muslims think about paradise. Not ISIS, all Muslims. Because Richard Landes: It's true. Danny Burmawi: it's in the Quran. It's it's it's like there's no other I I've heard some Muslims in the West are trying to change the hoodies, the virgins to grapes. That is that is ridiculous. It's like yeah, it's ridiculous at the Richard Landes: Raisin. Rais Danny Burmawi: in the Quran. Allah is describing the eyes, the boobs, the body, the w the color of the skin. It's like the sexual intercourse. It's it's ridiculous. Anyway. Richard Landes: In the in the Quran, not in the hadith. Danny Burmawi: And the Quran, of course. No, no, in the Quran, the Quran, Allah is describing the boobs. It's like they're really firm and big and beautiful. So, anyway, what happened is that the moment he shared that post, millions of Muslims on social media they demanded Richard Landes: Came down on it. Danny Burmawi: that he get killed for what he did, insulting Allah. And a couple days later he was he was shot dead on the streets of a man. And it was an international news, it's like because he was a high profile figure. But listen to this, the story did not end here. When the killer was captured and was taken to the court to in front of the judge. The br the brother of the journalist, he's my my friend. So I hear this, I heard this from him personally. It's not like hearsay, this is like a first-hand report. The judge, when he saw the killer, he told him, May Allah bless your hands for what you did. Then Richard Landes: Donate. Danny Burmawi: the judge sentenced him to death. So, what's going on here? I'll tell you what's going on here. The judge words or statement, may Allah bless your hands, that is the Islamic sentiment. That is what you believe in your heart. The death sentence is the Jordanian law. Okay? So when Abdul Sayyid in Michigan he celebrated Hamas and you know he he said hurt people hurt people and to on his comment on the I'm sorry, commenting on Richard Landes: Sorry. Danny Burmawi: the massacre or the attack on the synagogue. But then he came out to say to say, I did not know that my statement offended many people. I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way. Okay, that is that is just trying to appeal to it's like using Western language to win votes. But his sentiment is that he supports Hamas, just like Mamdani supports Hamas, just like All Muslims in the West support Hamas for religious reasons. Just forget about the useful idiots language that they gave to Muslims to use to hide their support for Islamic jihad under the banner of resistance, Richard Landes: Hurt people, hurt people. Danny Burmawi: resistance and whatever banners they use. No, they support Hamas, they support Islamic jihad. However, because they live in the West. There are laws, there are you know you cannot support terrorism, so they have to submit to the laws of the land that they live under now. But that just like the judge, the judge blessed the hands of the killer, but he sentenced him to death. Muslims in the West, they believe that Islamic jihad is a sacred religious mandate, but They have to condemn jihad publicly unless the useful idiots give them justification to use. Richard Landes: Right, right. Okay, so actually I I'd like to ask you a question, which I've I I wrote a chapter about the Danish cartoon scandal. I called it Dan I called it Danungate. anyway, so I I wrote this chapter and you know one of the things that most people when I talked to them about it didn't know was that the three worst cartoons were not in the Danish newspaper. The cartoon of a dog penetrating from Muhammad while he was praying, which is exactly what you describe as the absolute, you know, that's absolute blasphemy. Then there was one with a pig and so on. In any case, all three of those were actually made by the Mus the supremacist Muslims that wanted to arouse the Muslim world to attack. Anybody to attack the Danish newspaper and anybody who published the cartoons and anybody who supported them for doing that. So, what you have is actually the people who claim to be the leaders of the Muslim community actually creating sacrileges. Now, did anybody did that bother anybody in the Muslim world? I mean, they were outraged at these cartoons and Did anybody point out that it was Muslims who made that cartoon? Danny Burmawi: No, there is a verse in the Quran that says, Muhammad, provoke Muslims to go to jihad. How do you provoke them? Whatever psych and justified means. So if you if that is going to provoke them to go to jihad against the enemies of Allah, then that is fine. Richard Landes: For blasphemy. For blasphemy. In other words, you blaspheme in order to provoke your fellow co-religionists to go after the infidels for their blasphemy, which is actually your work. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I mean, when Muhammad wanted to kill the Jews and there was like some kind of treaty between them. I Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: I forgot which tribe, but the pretext was that a Jew pulled the skirt or the dress of a Muslim woman in public. Now I'm one hundred percent that is a made up story. But it was made up to justify Muhammad's massacre of the Jews and exiling them out of their homes and confiscating their properties. So it doesn't matter. It's like I always say this: whatever advances the cause of Allah is right. It doesn't matter what is it. Even suicide, even I remember there's a story, I I can't remember where it I even asked Chad GBT. Couldn't locate it. maybe it's made up, but it just captures the what I'm trying to describe. An old man came to Muhammad, they were getting ready to go to battle, and old people they were not obliged to go to jihad. So he told Muhammad they want to fight, they want to fight. This part exists in the authentic history, but there is part of the story, even though Muhammad allowed him to go to jihad. And he was killed. this is during the battle of Ud. But the part I cannot locate, Muhammad told him, okay, you cannot fight, you can let your children take you up the hell. And as the enemies, the the soldiers of the enemy passing by the hell, they can throw you on them from top of the hell, and you will fall on a couple of them and kill them. So that is that is just that was used to justify suicide bombing. but I'm I'm not sure of the source. But forget this story. It just a metaphor to ex to explain what I'm about to say. So whatever that serves Islam is justified. Abu Ubaida killed his own father, he beheaded his own father, he's a companion of Muhammad, and Allah praised him in the Quran. He said Richard Landes: So his father was an infidel. Danny Burmawi: his father was an infidel, and And Allah praised him in the Quran. So in the in the New Testament, Jesus said that unless you hate everyone for my sake and the sake of the gospel, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. But of course, from a Christian perspective, that Jesus was not talking about hate. He said, Love your enemies. What he meant is that the priority must be to God. And then after everything else follow. That that is something different than what Muhammad said that unless you love me more than you love anyone else, you will not go to paradise. Now, how do I love the prophet? I will give you an example how I love the prophet. There is someone criticizing Muhammad. If I love Muhammad, I'm gonna kill that person. Is that justified in Islam? Well, let's see. There was a poet and she wrote some verses, you know, criticizing Muhammad. She was just a poet. She just wrote certain verses. And Richard Landes: When she sang them Danny Burmawi: h her name was Asma bin Parwan. Guess how Muhammad killed her? And this is authentic in the in the most authentic tradition in Islam. Richard Landes: He didn't kill her, but one of his followers did while she was in bed with her child. Danny Burmawi: That's true. And he he killed her and he doubted. He doubted himself because she was holding her her child, and he came to Muhammad and he said to him, Is it possible that I made a mistake? And Muhammad told him, No, don't worry about it. No one would say that you made a mistake. You served Allah and you served his prophet. Another another person kirfa wa Richard Landes: Wait. Danny Burmawi: yeah. Richard Landes: So wait, do you know the essay called Moham the Mohammed's Dead Poet Society? Danny Burmawi: Yes, I heard of them. Yes. Richard Landes: Yes. Okay. So I mean it was just a collection of all the tales in which people who mocked Mohammed ended up dead and the people who killed him were praised by Muhammad. Right. Danny Burmawi: Yeah. So l let me ask you this. If this is authentic Islam, this is not like radical Islamism. No no this is just the tradition that all Muslims believe in. This is Muhammad, the person that they follow. He's the person who gave them the Quran. This is the Quran that they sanctified and worship. So what the heck is Islamism? I'll tell you what is it? It is being faithful to Islam. Richard Landes: Yeah, no. Right. It's a it's a term the Westerners make up. It's a term the Westerners make up to pretend that there's a different strain that's not Islamist. And you're saying there is no non Islamist, there's no non supremacist form of Islam. or if there is, it's n the the the is Danny Burmawi: Non Muslim is Muslim. Non Muslim is Muslim. Richard Landes: not gonna accept it as Muslim and will in fact view the people who articulate it as infidels and maybe you could explain quickly what takfir means. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, takfir is simply calling someone an infidel. And there there's Richard Landes: So so somebody who differs with the supremacist reading will be called an infidel by the supremacists. Danny Burmawi: I'm sorry, can you repeat that question? Richard Landes: Somebody a Muslim who r rejects the supremacist reading will be considered an infidel by the supremacist. Danny Burmawi: By anyone who wants to judge him by Islam. I I'm okay, so Richard Landes: Okay. Danny Burmawi: it's it's like there is no supremacist reading of Islam, there is the reading of Islam. It's it's only reading of Islam. Because again, Muslims in the West, especially in the West, they appeal to certain verses, they invoke certain verses to portray Islam as, you know, peaceful religion. I will give you an example, and this is gonna blow your mind, okay? So there is a verse in the Quran that everyone hears from Muslims: if you kill one person as if you have killed the entire mankind, right? Everyone uses that verse. my goodness, it's like so Islam stands against murder, and therefore you cannot be a Muslim and a terrorist at the same time. Now, here's what the verse says: the verse is, and we commanded. Banu Israel, the sons of Israel, that we we we told them that killing one person is equal to killing mankind. So Allah is narrating what He ordained on the people of Israel. Now that's fantastic. So it's the same Allah and Muslims must adhere to this. Great. Now let's continue reading. Except by truth. Well, okay, so there's an exception here. If you kill someone by truth, then it's not as if you have killed the entire mankind. Now, what are the exceptions? Corruption and fighting Allah and His Prophet. Now, excellent. What is corruption? Corruption in the language of the Quran, disbelieving, disbelieving in Allah and His Prophet, and you are spreading corruption. So, Richard, you are spreading corruption. I spread corruption. And not only that, we also wage war against Allah and His Prophet, because war in the Quranic language could be a poet writing some verses against Muhammad. That is war against Allah and His Prophet. So Allah is saying, actually, the verse that Muslims use most to show that Islam is beautiful, the same verse. Is telling Muslims that you can kill anyone who's waging war against Allah and His Prophet or who is spreading corruption and which means that disbelievers, the infidels. So it is it is catastrophic. Richard Landes: Okay, so now let me let me ask you a question. Is it possible? I mean, you grew up, you were born a Muslim, you grew up as a Muslim, you were instructed in this teaching, right? Is it possible that The Islam that you were exposed to was this supremac I'm calling it supremacist, you're saying it's just plain Islam. Is it possible that there are other forms that you haven't encountered? Danny Burmawi: Yeah, this is this is something that always people tell about it's Richard Landes: screen. Danny Burmawi: like say to me and not only ask me, no, say about me. It's like Muslims, even Muslims, they say, you are extrapolating your experience. You are So that's what that's Richard Landes: okay. That's interesting. All right. Danny Burmawi: what what they're saying. but here's here's the thing. I'll give you a couple answers for this question. Number one we are reading The scripture that we have as Muslims since the inception of Islam. We are reading Islamic history. We are reading about the same person. Now, if you are going to apply philosophy and hermeneutical philosophy, Edgar and you want to bring the philosophy into the equation and say, your way of reading the text is different than mine of reading the text. Yeah, I will give you that. I'll give you that. But now. Let's move to what's happening now. We have at IDI we have 10 former Muslims, one grew up in Germany, one who grew up in Spain, one in Morocco, one in Egypt, one in Saudi Arabia, one in Yemen, one in Iran. Put them together. And you will find out that all of them were taught the same the same Islam, Richard Landes: Got the same right. Danny Burmawi: even though they were living in different cultures. In different different schools of Islam, school of thought in Islam, by the way, because I don't want people to think, this is like only one school of thought. No, no, no. Shia, Sunni, within the Sunni, Hanafi, Hambali, Maliki, Shafi, it doesn't matter. That is the Islam all of us were taught. Now, this is still experience, personal experience. Let's go go a little bit wider. Now, look at the history of Islamic conquest, the history that left. Hundreds of millions. According to some reports, 370 million casualties, but I would I would say just 10 million, okay? 10 million casualties. Look at that history. Look at the occupation of the two-thirds of the Christian world, the older Christian world. Look at the Islamization, the erature of civilizations, look at the life of Muhammad. There are certain things you don't need interpretation, there's no nuances. If you look at Muhammad beheading children of Bani Uraida just because after he checked for their pupic hair, found that some among them they had pupic hair and therefore he deemed them adults. He beheaded 900 people. just because let's assume the Islamic narrative is correct, that they betrayed him and They supported the enemies. Okay. How many among Banu Quraida, the Jews of Banu Qurada, supported or betrayed Muhammad? Let's say the elders of Banu Quraida, 10, 50, 100, why would you behead 900, enslave their women and children, and confiscate their properties? That is the life of Muhammad. So is there anything that if if a Muslim comes to me and says, Well, there's different interpretation. please help me interpret this story, for example. Help me interpret the verses in the Quran that explicitly talk about jihad, provoke Muslims to fight, provoke them to fight. Allah has ordained that you fight even if you don't like it. If you don't go to jihad, Allah Allah's wrath is going to be upon you. And so forth and so on, hundreds of verses in the Quran, the stories in the Quran. So it's not a matter of interpretation, it's not a matter of culture, it's a matter of the moral ceiling for Muslims. Muhammad is the moral ceiling for Muslims. If Muhammad hated his enemies, Muslims cannot love their enemies. If Muhammad killed dissenters, Muslims cannot forgive dissenters. They all just as always. There are like a couple of stories here and there in Islam where Muslims use to portray Muhammad as peaceful or tolerant. For example, a story that we grew up hearing in the Islamic Ward, and it's not actually authentic, it's made up story, but just just to show you what is considered to be tolerant Islam, okay? Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: So Muhammad Muhammad had a neighbor and he was a Jew. And that ugly Jew, he would every day throw garbage at the door of Muhammad. He would leave garbage at the door of Muhammad. Every single day. Now you ask. Richard Landes: Not not a very right, not a very neighborly thing to do. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, of course. It was a Jew. What what are you gonna do? And of course, we don't know how would that happen when Muhammad, if you if if you just if your attitude is not good toward him, he would kill you. But let's say that happened. There was a Jew who would throw garbage at the door of Muhammad and Muhammad didn't do anything. Now, for a few days Muhammad missed that neighbor. He didn't see garbage at his door. And he started asking about him, like what happened to this Jew would throw garbage in my door. And people told him, he's sick. So Muhammad went to visit him, and the Jew was astonished by how merciful and forgiving the Prophet is, and he converted to Islam. That is the best story in Islam. It's like wherever you go around the world. You will hear this story. It's the only story because they don't have any other stories about Muhammad's being kind and embed with it within Richard Landes: What is Danny Burmawi: it that the Jew converted eventually. So, and it's anti-Semitic. And Richard Landes: And Danny Burmawi: this is the this tells you that even the goodness in Islam is distorted. Now, if I tell you this story about Jesus, for example, you'll be like, What the hell is this guy? It's like this is not a nice guy. it's it's it's like he wants he wants the other person to convert and and beside that the story, the whole story is vilification of entire group of people, Jews. But in Islam, this is considered to be like the best and it's not authentic, it didn't exist. So Richard Landes: But but but but if I understand you you're saying this really is one of the better stories about Muhammad. I mean in fact he is the best Danny Burmawi: The best the best story that we have about Richard Landes: story. Well listen, Danny Burmawi: There's nothing bitter b there's nothing else. Richard Landes: I like the story. Personally I like this story because it's neighborly. Now the key problem with the story, as you point out, is if the Jew had said, I really respect you for what you've done and I'm not gonna throw garbage anymore, but I'm still a Jew. That would be a genuinely neighborly story as opposed to, look, I was nice to you. Danny Burmawi: But why why would you why would the story say a Jew? Why wouldn't it be just like a non Muslim, a man? It had it had to be a Jew. It's Richard Landes: I see you right an infinite. All right, all right. I hear what you say. Danny Burmawi: just like the other, the otherness of people. It's like you cannot accept them unless they become like you. Richard Landes: Okay, so all right. So now listen right. So now listen. One way to repeat what you're saying or to reformulate it is to say that Muslims have serious problems with the other. The other automatically registers as infidel, which is a deeply negative term of somebody who's hiding the truth, of somebody who's obstructing the truth, and who is so inferior to the Muslim that either death or submission are his choices or conversion are his choices Danny Burmawi: Converting. Yeah. Richard Landes: or conversion. Danny Burmawi: Yeah. Yeah, this is this is this is how you as a Muslim think. Richard Landes: Whoa. So then w at least that's not very difficult to Right. Right. All right. Well Danny Burmawi: Even your neighbourly Muslim, even your neighbourly Muslim, I'm sorry, your nice Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: Muslim who is nice not because of Islam, but nice because he's a nicer human being. If he is to adhere to the teachings of Islam. Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: He cannot be nice to you. So being nice, you shouldn't you shouldn't expect Muslims to be nice because of Islam. Because you are asking the impossible. It doesn't exist. You ask them to submit. Let me put it this way just like the judge in the story I mentioned earlier, you ask them to submit. To the non-Islamic customs, the Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: human, humane customs of all of us, so that they can coexist. But to ask them to come up with a different version of Islam that is decoupled from scripture, decoupled from the reality of Muhammad, his life and actions, that is asking them to abandon Islam. No. Richard Landes: All right. All right. You all right. Listen, Danny, you have now given me a really interesting challenge. I'm gonna start looking for Muslims who can convince you that it is possible, even though the supremacists would not think it possible and would not recognize it, but it is possible to be a Muslim and to be a good neighbor to infidels. So that's my challenge. Danny Burmawi: Yeah, I I I I yeah, I I accept your challenge. Richard Landes: No, no, no, no, no. You've challenged me. I'm gonna look and we'll see if we can find some Muslims who pass who pass a test you say they can't pass. All right? Danny Burmawi: Okay, so when you find when you find that person, before before you bring him on to talk to me, just tell him if Richard Landes: Right. Danny Burmawi: Muhammad said do not start the Jews and Christians with do not start them with greetings and push them to the edge of the road, if Muhammad said that. And do you think that is hateful? That is a hadith. Richard Landes: All right, listen. That's that's for the next discussion. Okay. You we we can actually have you ask them that question Danny Burmawi: Okay. Richard Landes: and see how they answer. All right. Thank you very much for joining us Danny Burmawi: All right. Richard Landes: and for look, I mean, even if your even if your ultimate conclusions are first of all, they're very un shall we say they're very unhappy. They're they're very discouraging. But even if they're not completely true, it's clear that this is a very serious element that we must take seriously. And and so I thank you for explaining it and laying it out in the way you did. Thank you very much, Danny Bermond. Danny Burmawi: Thank you, thank you, Richard. It's always an honor to talk to you. Thank you.