Latest / Future Christian / Stepping into Kingdom Justice with Michelle Ferrigno Warren

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Stepping into Kingdom Justice with Michelle Ferrigno Warren · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:46
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Michelle
0:49
Farigo Warren to the show.
0:52
Michelle is the president of Farigo
0:54
Strategies, a consulting group which
0:57
provides strategic engagement and project
1:00
management support for churches and
1:02
nonprofits. Stepping more deeply into the
1:05
work of public justice. She has been working
1:08
in Christian community development for over 30
1:11
years, utilizing her skills as an
1:13
educator, worship leader, nonprofit
1:16
manager, public policy specialist, and
1:19
faith rooted organizer and activist.
1:22
She is an adjunct professor at Denver
1:25
Seminary and a senior fellow with the Dietrich
1:28
Bonhoeffer Institute. She is a fierce
1:30
advocate for justice and has shared much of her
1:33
journey towards civic engagement and activism in
1:36
her books the Power of
1:39
Moving Beyond Awareness to Action
1:42
and Join the Step into
1:45
the Good Work of Kingdom Justice.
1:48
A reminder. Before we start today's
1:50
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe
1:53
to the podcast, leave a review and share
1:56
Future Christian with a friend. Connect with
1:59
Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
2:02
Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh,
2:04
laurensonediaproah.com
2:08
with comments, questions or ideas for
2:11
future episodes. We appreciate your
2:14
voice in how we faithfully discern the future
2:17
of the church.
2:29
>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future of Christian podcast. I'm, um,
2:31
here recording live in person at, uh, Open
2:34
Door Ministries in Denver, Colorado with
2:37
Michelle Fergno. Warren. Thank you so much
2:40
for being here. Thank you for your time and uh, welcome to
2:42
the show, Loren.
2:44
>> Speaker D: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to have the conversation. And thanks for coming to Open
2:47
Door.
2:48
>> Loren: As I was explaining offline, I always
2:51
enjoy in person conversations more than like we
2:53
talked about staring at a screen trying to
2:56
read, uh, you know, a flat surface
2:59
so listeners will probably notice.
3:02
Michelle, uh, and I are a little scratchy throated, so please
3:05
forgive us for the, uh, audio quality
3:08
if our vocal, uh, quality is not as good as
3:11
we might like. But we're looking forward to having this conversation
3:14
and um, looking forward to hearing more
3:17
in the conversation.
3:18
So let's, let's begin with this, uh, Sheriff Juice Wood.
3:21
Anything else you want listeners to know about you?
3:24
>> Speaker D: Well, that is a really broad question, so I thank
3:27
you for that. You know, I've been married for 31 years.
3:30
I share that because it's good work, but it's probably the hardest
3:33
work.
3:33
>> Loren: Yes.
3:34
>> Speaker D: And so my husband and I were college sweethearts. I have
3:37
three kids. They're all adults. Um, two lawyers and an
3:39
engineer. So I'm very excited about that. But,
3:42
you know, mostly. And we'll get into the conversation,
3:45
but one of the things that I like to share
3:48
is that I strive to be a good neighbor. And.
3:51
And in the Christian faith, that holds a lot of
3:53
weight. And so, yeah, so I would just say that I'm
3:56
practicing being a good neighbor and had been
3:59
trying to do that since my eyes got opened
4:02
to not just the concept of being a neighbor, but
4:05
having neighbors who have had different experiences.
4:08
Lived experiences. And. Yeah, just
4:10
walking in life with each other along our
4:13
ways.
4:14
>> Loren: Why don't we go into that a little bit? Uh, I usually ask
4:17
folks to share about the beginning of the faith journey,
4:20
what that looks like today. I don't know if you're willing to kind of frame
4:23
it through that lens. You mentioned your eyes being opened.
4:26
If you can share a little bit more about that.
4:28
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So I think it's good to start
4:31
kind of in the sort of the beginning and trajectory, because I think your
4:33
formation is how you begin to see and
4:36
shape the world. And I was born into a
4:39
Catholic family, so I have Catholic roots.
4:42
And my parents, um, came
4:45
to a different expression of their Christian faith
4:48
when I was in. When I was 5. And that
4:51
doesn't seem like it should be that big of a transition, but
4:54
it was, because as they stepped. They didn't step out
4:56
of Catholicism. They stepped into a
4:59
different expression. I like to refer to it as a
5:02
generous Christian orthodoxy. Um,
5:05
anyway, so I think they were kind of part of the Jesus
5:07
movement, and some of that captured them.
5:10
And they ended up actually going to
5:13
a church that was fundamentalist. They
5:16
don't know if they realized all of what they had chosen. And, you
5:19
know, they put me in private Christian schools because that
5:22
was what was starting back in. I guess that would have been
5:25
1976.
5:26
>> Loren: Yeah.
5:26
>> Speaker D: And so. Yeah, and so that was a lot of. My formation
5:29
was actually a Christian
5:31
fundamentalism. And what I didn't catch
5:34
Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night was
5:37
reinforced Monday through Friday. And I don't want to
5:39
criticize that, because I was loved and I was nurtured.
5:42
And maybe. Maybe there's some things I could say that I wasn't
5:45
seeing with my potential as A girl.
5:47
>> Loren: Right.
5:47
>> Speaker D: But my parents were not a part of that
5:50
indoctrination. You know, they had walked out of
5:53
Catholicism and had felt like a lot of their formation was
5:55
centered around guilt and shame, and so they weren't going to take anything.
5:58
But I think for me, being an oldest child,
6:01
trying to be a good girl, I'm an enneagram one. You know, I
6:04
think I just adopted all of that Christian culture that
6:07
even my m parents didn't put on. I kind of thought they were bad
6:10
at being born again. Anyway, that brought me to,
6:13
you know, college, and I chose to go to Cedarville University.
6:16
>> Loren: Yes.
6:17
>> Speaker D: Which is a very conservative school. It was not as
6:20
conservative as the high school I went to.
6:22
>> Loren: Interesting.
6:22
>> Speaker D: So this is kind of me stepping.
6:24
>> Loren: Yeah.
6:24
>> Speaker D: And I would say was nothing was a rebellion or a
6:27
reaction. It was just a broadening of my
6:29
experience. It was great to be at Cedarville. You know, being 18 to
6:32
22 is awesome. I met in my
6:36
future husband there. We were college sweethearts and married
6:39
soon after we graduated, then moved down to Texas for three
6:41
years. During our time in college, we had both
6:44
done a lot of community ministry and outreach.
6:47
I had done tutoring in a, um,
6:50
girl's home that, you know, people that were not juvenile
6:53
detention, but kind of like that. My husband David, was
6:56
doing a lot of street outreach work in
6:58
Cincinnati. And without getting into too many of the
7:01
details, as the two of us were coming together, we knew that we
7:04
wanted to have a life
7:07
that would be centered around
7:10
people who were very poor and that we
7:13
didn't want to live in a different community, that we would
7:16
be committed to working,
7:19
worshiping, and living in the same
7:21
community. And that really set off a trajectory
7:24
for that neighboring piece. Because in my mindset, a
7:27
neighbor was who lived next to me.
7:29
>> Loren: Yeah.
7:30
>> Speaker D: And because of socioeconomic status, because of
7:32
education, they all pretty much look like us. Um,
7:35
maybe not at the moment. You would see distinctives, but compared
7:38
to where I was ready to begin to plant my roots
7:42
and raise our family. And we've been in Denver. We were in
7:44
Dallas for a few years, and then in Denver these almost 30
7:47
years, it has changed everything. And
7:50
that has, you know, faith isn't some abstract that
7:53
you kind of check in. It's a part of who you are. Your
7:56
spirituality is a part of who you are. My faith is
7:58
rooted in Christ and his words and, you know, his
8:01
word. And trying to embody my hermeneutic
8:04
is Jesus. So I'm trying to embody, you know, his love in
8:07
action. And that is really what has
8:10
Shaped my faith is just the difference of neighbors
8:13
and the struggles of life, the struggles of community.
8:16
Going back to Jesus and trying to see, okay,
8:19
really, what does it mean to love my neighbor as, you know,
8:21
my neighbor as myself. What does it mean to love my
8:24
enemy? Uh, et cetera, et cetera.
8:27
>> Loren: Yes.
8:28
Well, share, if you would, any kind of spiritual
8:30
practices, spiritual disciplines that are
8:33
meaningful for you or help you stay
8:36
grounded.
8:36
>> Speaker D: I mean, I was brought up to be a good fundamentalist. So, I mean, I'm very.
8:39
I was very good at doing all of what I
8:42
call Sunday school. You know, I was, I was. I
8:45
think I wrote in my book Join the Resistance that I was taught to
8:48
love God, love others, and be a very good
8:51
Pharisee. You know, that, um, was really what I was trained to
8:54
do. So my spiritual practices have deviated a little bit.
8:57
I mean, it is definitely centered around, you know, God's
9:00
word. I just really think there's a lot to learn from the
9:02
Bible. I also think there's a lot to learn from the saints who
9:05
come before us and those who are with us now. So
9:08
a lot of my practices changed after Covid,
9:11
and so some of them are going to sound funny, but it's
9:14
actually a spiritual action. Um, spiritual practice
9:17
of walking.
9:18
>> Loren: Yeah.
9:19
>> Speaker D: And, you know, St. Augustine has kind of coined the phrase, it is
9:22
solved by walking or Salvatore on
9:24
balando. And so I just really feel like there's something
9:27
very deeply meaningful and spiritual in that practice
9:30
of walking and all of the different things that you think
9:33
about and listen to and pray along the way and see
9:36
even what you see.
9:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
9:37
>> Speaker D: Another thing is, is I'm always growing something, no matter
9:40
what it is year round. Because I think
9:43
especially the work that I do, living and working and worshiping in the
9:45
communities that are forgotten or that are
9:48
vilified on the news. I live in a, an immigrant community
9:51
and have, you know, for almost three decades.
9:54
I need to see hope alive. So
9:57
hope isn't something you're going to see. It's not about the present, it's about the
10:00
future.
10:01
>> Loren: Amen.
10:01
>> Speaker D: Um, and when you look at a seat and this is the spiritual
10:03
practice of taking something that looks like
10:06
trash or dirt, and you put it
10:09
in that dirt and you embed it and you
10:12
put it in the right elements and you don't see the
10:15
underground activity of all that growth and
10:18
breaking that happens. And then all of a sudden, this new life.
10:21
I'm kind of addicted to growth and the, and the growth of
10:23
life. So I honestly am always growing something.
10:26
Not maintaining, but growing Something from seed,
10:29
you know, in all year round. And then,
10:32
you know, I spend some time journaling. I don't do as much as I used
10:35
to because I'm a different person
10:38
now. Um, but I definitely follow the Christian
10:40
calendar practices of Lent and Advent. You
10:43
know, I. I read and pray.
10:46
But I would say what characterizes the
10:49
post 50 versus the pre 50,
10:52
Michelle, is I do everything in
10:55
my spiritual discipline. Slower.
10:59
>> Loren: That's a good lesson right there. I'm
11:02
thinking as we're recording this,
11:05
there's sitting to my left,
11:08
Michelle, your right, an Advent wreath.
11:11
And we're coming up on Joy Sunday. I
11:14
believe in Advent. Hope was the first Sunday. Is that right?
11:17
>> Speaker D: Hope, peace, joy, love, worship. Pastor. You know I'm going
11:20
to do that, right?
11:20
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, that's great. We're here to
11:23
talk a little bit about Michelle and
11:26
her broad work. Her book Join the
11:29
Resistance, and
11:32
I think evangelicalism writ large. I
11:35
suppose we'll see where it goes.
11:37
But I think I, uh, suppose you've
11:40
already sort of identified this in beginning to talk
11:43
about your. As you mentioned, your eyes
11:45
being opened. Is there anything else you want to share
11:48
about a call or a prompting that
11:51
really. Certainly, uh, in the Christian
11:54
tradition, I imagine for me, and I imagine for
11:57
you also, people talk about a call
12:00
of God on their lives. Do you want to share
12:02
anything that resonates there?
12:05
>> Speaker D: There's definitely different points that I have had that. And it's
12:07
not that I wouldn't want to share it. I just don't know if
12:10
one's more significant than the other. You know, it's just a
12:13
series of stepping into the next hard thing.
12:16
>> Loren: Okay.
12:16
>> Speaker D: And really a surrender.
12:18
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:18
>> Speaker D: To God and his requests.
12:21
Am I willing to go? You talked about my book during the
12:24
resistance before I wrote Join the Resistance, after we had
12:27
been living out this working, worshiping.
12:29
Because that is a call in itself.
12:31
>> Loren: Right.
12:31
>> Speaker D: I mean, I have three kids. I put them in the worst
12:33
schools in the worst community.
12:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:36
>> Speaker D: When I say worst, I mean by statistics.
12:38
>> Loren: Right.
12:39
>> Speaker D: And I trusted that that seed going into that dirt
12:42
would result in beauty. And so all of
12:44
that is a call. It's actually obedience to a
12:47
call. And so getting a call versus living at
12:50
your call, you know, they should be connected. And so that's probably
12:53
been the story of my life. But the first book I wrote, after
12:56
we'd been doing it for about 24, 24 years before I published
12:59
my first book, was called the Power of Proximity.
13:02
And it was because of that seeing, you know,
13:05
you can't fix problems. You don't understand.
13:07
>> Loren: Right.
13:08
>> Speaker D: And so how are you going to move from an awareness
13:11
of something? And for me it was an awareness of issues
13:14
that my neighbors were facing. Some people are hearing about
13:17
it on the news here in Denver. We had a lot
13:20
of Venezuelan migrants coming these last two years, more
13:22
in our city per capita than any other city, including
13:25
Chicago and New York for two years. And so
13:28
you're hearing about the story of immigrants and it may
13:31
move you from an awareness to I want to do something which is
13:34
great. I think that is deeply spiritual, important,
13:37
human as well. Response. For me,
13:40
I was living with immigrants in proximity to
13:42
immigrants and proximity to the poor, in
13:45
proximity to working class and proximity to the homeless
13:48
and all the different people groups, I guess you could say, even though
13:51
we were just one big community, right at Open Door
13:54
Fellowship and in my neighborhood it
13:57
was powerful because it moved me from an
13:59
awareness of injustice
14:02
to a, ah, question of what was I going to do with what I
14:04
knew and how was I going to move and
14:07
be authentic in solidarity? Because I do community
14:10
development and I mean I do activism and advocacy too.
14:13
But it's with this community development and organizing model that you
14:16
never do anything to a community or for a community.
14:19
You would do it with it. So they can do it by themselves.
14:22
And so that is really the learning is
14:25
nobody was waiting for me to show up, but when I did,
14:28
how would I humble myself and walk in
14:30
solidarity and do whatever we needed to do
14:33
to do well? And so the power of Proximity really is the
14:36
story of call and
14:38
conviction and also just an invitation to all of
14:41
us. If we can't fix problems we don't understand,
14:44
then how are we going to understand them? Um, that's why Proximity is
14:47
key. And then Join the Resistance is another series which we
14:50
can talk about at some point.
14:52
>> Loren: So let's talk a little bit about
14:55
this aspect of community development because I'm thinking
14:57
about in recent years I've begun to
15:00
study social entrepreneurship. I'm thinking
15:03
of um,
15:06
asset based community development.
15:09
Where is there interlapation for those unfamiliar?
15:12
Someone me. Right. Give a little
15:14
background, details of what that looks like.
15:17
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I can do that. Although this is really painful because I
15:20
teach at a seminary and I teach social concerns and community
15:23
development. So I have way too much, way too
15:26
much information to um, answer that question. So let me try to
15:29
think. I'll re emphasize one thing that I shared.
15:31
Uh, because community development and assets based
15:34
community development is an acknowledgement
15:37
of that a community has resources
15:40
within itself to get it what it
15:42
needs. Uh, sometime it just has not been
15:45
invested in, or it has been
15:48
stripped of its resources and things that are taken,
15:50
uh, so that it can't.
15:52
>> Loren: Right.
15:53
>> Speaker D: And there's a lot of metaphors and a lot of workshops that I actually
15:55
teach churches and nonprofits, and if
15:58
anybody's interested, you know, they contact you to really kind of
16:01
explain that in depth. But I'll
16:03
reemphasize. When you look at communities,
16:07
whether it's from the inside or the outside,
16:09
everybody has potential. It's deeply theological
16:12
in imago dei, in the call to subdue, you know, even
16:15
in the levitical commands to help protect
16:18
vulnerable so that everybody can live to their most
16:21
productive place. And that's the Hebrew word mishpat, or the
16:24
word for justice, to restore people
16:27
and whole societies to their most productive place.
16:30
So when we're talking about doing community development, especially as a
16:33
Christian, how can I be a part of restoring
16:36
people and places to their most productivity? So we need
16:39
to be honest about what's going on, right? And then we need to
16:41
be honest and
16:44
creative and imaginative to believe that we have
16:47
what we need. And so that if you're on the outside, like
16:50
me coming in, I. It's very arrogant posture
16:53
to say, I know what's best, so I'm going to do this to you. It's
16:56
even pretty arrogant to say, I'm going to do it for you. So I always say there's
16:58
four. There's four, um, prepositions for
17:01
community development. You never want to do two or four,
17:04
Right. But you do want to do it with. And that's the
17:07
solidarity. Because communities do need
17:09
accompaniment. Individuals need accompaniment. Here at Open
17:12
Door, we do a lot of individual accompaniment out of
17:15
homelessness, out of addictions. I mean, there's so
17:18
much that communities, because of things
17:21
that have happened. It's not always an individual decision,
17:24
but individuals still make decisions.
17:26
>> Loren: Right?
17:26
>> Speaker D: And so as you walk with people and you walk with whole
17:29
congregations or you walk with whole communities, we're
17:32
doing it together so that eventually
17:35
individuals and communities can do things by itself.
17:38
Think of community development as tutoring. You never want to
17:41
hire a tutor for long because they're expensive. It takes extra
17:43
time. You want to tutor for
17:46
a while. You can't take the test for the student.
17:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:49
>> Speaker D: You don't want to belittle and shame and make them freeze.
17:52
But if you have something to offer, how do you
17:54
accompany people and
17:57
places so that we can all
18:00
flourish? Community development
18:02
is based on community organizing.
18:05
Community organizing builds social networks. It
18:08
is a leadership from behind. It doesn't
18:11
mean there's no leadership. It requires some. But the
18:14
community is driving everything. The community is
18:17
dreaming. The community is planning. And we
18:20
assemble. Leadership within and when we need it,
18:23
collaborate without. Because maybe we need extra social networks.
18:26
Definitely economic.
18:27
>> Loren: Yeah.
18:27
>> Speaker D: So that we can imagine if we had all this, what can we
18:30
do together? Holding ourselves accountable. So that's kind of the essence
18:33
of community development. I did that for a very
18:36
long time. I still believe in it. But
18:39
after doing the work, I began to
18:42
realize. Well, I guess let me just say I kept asking questions.
18:44
>> Loren: Yeah.
18:46
>> Speaker D: Much like the Brazilian
18:48
priest who is pretty famous for saying, I can't remember his
18:51
name.
18:51
>> Loren: Gutierrez.
18:52
>> Speaker D: I don't remember his name. I'm so sorry, sir, but that's okay.
18:55
When I gave the poor.
18:58
>> Loren: Yes, Gustavo Gibbs.
18:59
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I was gonna say I couldn't remember. Yeah. When I gave the poor something to
19:02
eat, they called me a saint. When I asked why the poor
19:05
were hungry, they called me a communist. So I've been
19:08
labeled a Marxist, a communist social. I mean, like, that's what
19:11
happens.
19:11
>> Loren: Yeah.
19:12
>> Speaker D: Because I asked questions and I wanted to be a part of that solution.
19:15
And that moves from community development
19:18
into the confrontation of injustice. I'll
19:21
give another metaphor. You don't want to give people a
19:24
fish.
19:24
>> Loren: There's.
19:25
>> Speaker D: You love mercy, so you want to give people fishes. Don't hear
19:27
me wrong. But community development says, I don't want to give you a
19:30
fish perpetually. I want to teach you to a fish.
19:33
Teach you to fish. A, uh, community
19:36
organizer or somebody who's been here for a very long time, like
19:39
myself and others, we know that it's an access
19:41
issue.
19:42
>> Loren: Right? Access to the lake to fish.
19:44
>> Speaker D: Access to the fish. Yeah. It could be the perfects. I
19:47
mean, there's.
19:47
There could be. You could come to our lake. You can use whatever rod you want.
19:50
You can use whatever tackle you want. But you
19:53
need to pay this much money to get this. And you can only be here
19:56
at this hours. Those
19:59
are the kinds of things that lead to
20:02
that have led to people being written out of a system.
20:05
And the system is operating the way it was created to do. And it's
20:08
until we rise up and resist that
20:11
system and do it. And I'm not saying just to be
20:13
difficult, but create disruption,
20:16
advocate, uh, be those prophets.
20:19
Advocacy is the prophetic word and the prophetic work of the
20:22
church to say that, you know what, if these systems are
20:25
not just, then we will not stop
20:27
until everyone has justice.
20:31
>> Loren: Let's dive into that a little bit more because it leads
20:34
into a question. I wanted to Ask you
20:36
around, you identified
20:39
it. Works of mercy versus works of
20:42
justice, uh, which is a bifurcation I often
20:44
hear. And it seems like in some
20:47
contexts churches or Christians are far more
20:50
comfortable with what we might call works of mercy,
20:53
which, like you said, would be giving people a fish
20:56
versus works of justice, which we might define, like you
20:58
said, as opening access to,
21:01
uh, the lake to make sure folks can get to the lake.
21:06
What are your thoughts around? And I think, I
21:09
want to acknowledge that I think there can be some nuance because I
21:12
think there can be some disagreement around what is the best way to
21:15
open up access to the lake. So for that justice,
21:18
that can be complexity. But what are your thoughts? Because, uh,
21:20
it feels like to me that churches and Christians tend to be a
21:23
lot more comfortable with giving out the
21:26
fish, so to speak, to say with that metaphor versus the
21:29
latter. What are your thoughts there? What have you seen?
21:32
>> Speaker D: Oh, my goodness.
21:33
All right. Well, first of all, we're commanded to love mercy. Sometimes people in
21:36
the development space kind of put down
21:39
the giving of a fish.
21:40
>> Loren: Right, right.
21:41
>> Speaker D: And I don't want to do that because we. Mercy is a
21:44
response to a problem. Justice isn't
21:47
a response to a. It is trying to figure out
21:50
why the problem exists and, uh, fixing that.
21:53
>> Loren: Yeah.
21:53
>> Speaker D: I've kind of shared a little bit about the, you know, Hebrew
21:56
word for justice. Not going to go into the Hebrew word
21:59
for mercy. But we know that we're
22:02
committed to love. That little voice
22:05
there. We're commanded to love it, which means we should
22:08
never get tired of it. And so we're going to always need to
22:11
do that posture. And I'm grateful that
22:13
churches want to practice some of that loving mercy.
22:16
I usually call it outreach, compassionate
22:19
acts.
22:19
>> Loren: Right.
22:20
>> Speaker D: Um, doing
22:23
justice is long.
22:25
>> Loren: Yeah.
22:26
>> Speaker D: And it is always met with resistance.
22:29
>> Loren: Yeah.
22:29
>> Speaker D: So imagine being a church. And I remember when doing
22:32
mercy wasn't so great. I mean I do remember Something happened in
22:35
1995 or 6. I can talk to you quite
22:38
a bit about how political reform
22:41
has either made the church cold or warm
22:44
to things. But once the welfare, uh, reform
22:46
act happened in 1996, you will begin to see
22:49
churches, especially those with middle income security
22:52
or higher, all of a sudden loving mercy wasn't so bad.
22:56
Right. So there's just an interesting sociological
22:59
political lens we won't get there. But
23:01
anyway, when you hand
23:03
somebody, I mean, we're told this to do, give the hungry
23:06
food, you know, give the, give the naked
23:09
clothes. We
23:12
need to do it. It is, it is not easy. We're called
23:15
to love It. Because we have to do it so much. However, you
23:18
have an instant gratification. And when you look at
23:20
a whole church, you want your people not
23:23
just to be absorbers of the word, but
23:26
doers. And so to put them on a
23:28
trajectory that's going to take an entire lifetime doesn't
23:31
seem probably as incentivizing.
23:33
>> Loren: Right, right.
23:34
>> Speaker D: And I see that with mainline Catholic,
23:37
evangelical.
23:38
>> Loren: Yes.
23:38
>> Speaker D: Got to give our people the good endorphins that they did
23:41
something.
23:41
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, I mean, I, uh. We both been in
23:44
leadership ministry leadership. We know. Like,
23:47
how am I going to get this person engaged? I need to get them a
23:50
quick, quick hit.
23:51
>> Speaker D: Here's the thing is, I'll take your money. Like, people like, oh, don't just give me your money.
23:54
Give me your body. I want your body, too, but if you'll give me that. I
23:57
want your money.
23:58
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
23:59
>> Speaker D: We need your money. We need those acts of
24:02
mercy. What I try to challenge people is don't stop
24:04
there. Ask God how to move you and extend
24:07
you beyond loving mercy to doing justice. Because when
24:10
you start to be willing to do justice, that is
24:13
slow, uphill, grueling
24:16
work. But I think that's the kingdom work. That
24:19
is kingdom work. And you just see it
24:22
so clear. That's why I said my hermeneutic is
24:25
Jesus. I heard that from Tony Campolo.
24:27
>> Loren: Yeah. Who just passed. Right.
24:29
>> Speaker D: Just passed. Oh, my goodness. He's also the one to
24:32
challenge me. A week after the Trump
24:34
election, the first time we were in this big prayer group, Jim
24:37
Wallace had called a bunch of national leaders, and I think there was like
24:40
50, 60 of us in the room, maybe not even that much. It
24:43
felt like a big room. We all bowed our head in prayer,
24:46
and I heard a gargly voice, and I knew it was Tony. And he's like,
24:49
God, help me to find the imago
24:51
DEI and Trump. And I was like, why did you have to say
24:54
that? So it's been my prayer.
24:57
>> Loren: Yeah.
24:57
>> Speaker D: I get to use it a little bit more, Right? Yeah, I get to use it.
25:00
>> Loren: And maybe today, help me to find the imago DEI in Trump
25:02
voters.
25:03
>> Speaker D: Oh, for sure. I mean, here's the thing. When you
25:06
begin to pray to find the imago DEI and your enemies.
25:09
I won't say the Trump is my enemy.
25:11
>> Loren: Yeah, but. Sure.
25:12
>> Speaker D: But people who. Who will hurt
25:15
my community.
25:16
>> Loren: Right.
25:16
>> Speaker D: And who are against me. Let me phrase it. That. To find the
25:19
imago de. And people who are against me.
25:21
>> Loren: Yeah. And what you're doing, people I love. Yeah.
25:24
>> Speaker D: It is a challenge. But Then I remind myself
25:27
of Jesus, my goodness. He said, love
25:30
enemies, do good to those
25:33
who persecute you. Like that's so mind boggling. So I have
25:36
a lot to learn. But as far as the doing justice,
25:39
it is a strap in for a
25:42
hike. It's the sojourning, it's the
25:44
pilgrimage, it's you get to practice the disciple
25:47
part of being a Jesus father, which man I gotta love, I
25:50
gotta do things I don't want to do. Those Beatitudes are impossible.
25:53
And then it's the sojourning pilgrim. I don't
25:56
know how convenient or inconvenient this
25:59
work is going to be. And so that's why I try to encourage people
26:02
we are to honor God is to do the work
26:05
of justice. That's the whole theme of the Old Testament. It's
26:08
embodied and it's sprinkled all through parables, rules in
26:11
the kingdom. And so the work of justice, which I
26:14
think we should probably tell our people that in the
26:16
Greek the word for righteousness is
26:19
also the word for justice. And it
26:22
does a very. I believe, yes it is good
26:25
job.
26:25
>> Loren: Took uh, four semesters many years ago.
26:29
>> Speaker D: Well, if we were just to
26:32
start to flip that, uh, if we were being
26:34
students of God's word and reading the New Testament every time we
26:37
saw it's not 100% but a majority of the time when we see the word
26:40
righteousness put in justice, it would transform the way
26:43
we live it out.
26:45
>> Loren: Let's stay on this if I may because I'm thinking
26:48
about. I like your point about justice. Well we
26:51
interpret righteousness as right living,
26:54
perhaps better translated just
26:57
living and especially in some
26:59
circles. And we'll bang on
27:02
evangelicals a little bit here. That
27:05
right living can be right.
27:08
What am I trying to say? Adherence to the
27:11
right kind of beliefs. Living.
27:14
>> Speaker D: Mhm. So
27:16
I get to preach
27:20
and on the evangelical churches that will allow women to
27:23
preach. So that's a very few and far
27:25
between. I preached in my first. The first time I
27:28
ever preached was in a mainline church. So I thank them
27:31
and respect and appreciate their
27:34
recognition of my own gifting and call.
27:37
They invited me. So I've preached in lots. I've even given
27:40
stuff to Cat like in a homily. So it's kind of been all over the
27:42
place. But when evangelicals will allow me to preach,
27:45
mostly everybody wants me to talk about the intersection of faith and justice. That's what
27:48
I'm known for. That's the work, you know, and that's plus I
27:51
think it's easier to get an outside person to speak about
27:54
it, because, you know, it's like the prophetic voice, like, well, she was only here
27:57
for a week. She's only here for a week. You know,
28:00
forget that she was here kind of thing. Um, but. But all
28:03
the. I often, almost always exclusively talk
28:06
about the connection between righteousness and
28:09
justice, because in religious
28:12
circles, so it could be mainline, it could be Catholic, could be
28:14
evangelical, it could even be non Christian.
28:17
But more of this, what I do that
28:20
qualifies me, like my religious practices, my
28:23
practices, my spiritual piety, that is
28:26
not righteousness. Righteousness, uh, and justice.
28:29
Because you see them so intrinsically into the Old
28:31
Testament, righteousness and justice kind of are paired. And
28:34
in the New Testament, same word, even in the Greek.
28:37
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
28:37
>> Speaker D: It's because they are not disconnected. You
28:40
don't do your righteousness and then decide if you want to do
28:43
justice. Righteousness is not about
28:45
spiritual practices. You need spiritual practices to be
28:48
able to live a righteous life. Because righteousness, or the
28:51
Hebrew word tsedeq, is the right actions
28:54
towards somebody that become justice
28:57
for everyone. You can't do righteousness without
29:00
justice, because that's what tsedeq, and
29:03
that's what the concept of the righteousness
29:05
justice connection is. Righteousness as a Christian
29:08
is my right actions towards
29:10
you, and my right actions are
29:13
so right in such a way that it
29:16
becomes justice not just for you or me, but
29:19
it becomes justice for everyone.
29:23
>> Loren: I, uh, appreciate you sharing that. I want to lean into
29:27
this big E word.
29:28
>> Speaker D: Hey, listen, I have no problem. I'll just let you know, I'm an
29:31
evangelical. You can ask me why I want.
29:34
>> Loren: To lean into that.
29:35
Um, as we talked prior offline, you.
29:38
You. You mentioned to me that you've chosen to
29:40
retain that word, even though in some
29:43
circles, you're seen. If I'm. Hopefully I'm not speaking out
29:46
of turn as a bad evangelical, I'm pro.
29:49
>> Speaker D: A really lousy evangelical.
29:51
>> Loren: Um, conversely,
29:55
as you, I think you would admit. Again, I hope I'm not speaking for
29:57
you. Evangelicals have done their fair share
30:00
of stuff to kind of deserve a bad rap.
30:03
What do you want to say about why you've chosen to
30:06
kind of retain that moniker? Uh,
30:10
what good can you share about, uh,
30:12
evangelicalism? Because, I mean, again,
30:16
here we are in the Denver metro area. I see a lot
30:18
of really good stuff happening
30:21
from churches and people who I
30:23
think would broadly identify well within
30:26
evangelicalism as a whole. So I think there's a lot of good happening
30:29
beyond just the headlines that we see on the national
30:31
News.
30:35
>> Speaker D: So I told you I have Catholic roots and
30:38
evangelical roots. Of course, I was some fundamentalists. We didn't call ourselves
30:41
evangelicals because we thought they were going to have roots. Right.
30:42
>> Loren: They were liberals.
30:43
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So, yeah, I know we have. The Southern Baptists were
30:46
liberal. So, I mean, like I said, everybody has their own
30:49
camp. So I usually tell people I have Catholic and evangelical
30:52
roots because that's a very honest telling of who I am. It's
30:55
an. It's an integration
30:57
evangelicalism. Um, first of all, I don't want to be
31:00
some sociologist, uneven Jews. I do
31:03
remember kind of that awareness, like, okay, this is sort of a
31:06
negative thing in the political stream, or
31:09
positive, depending on what camp you were sitting in. Right.
31:11
Uh, and I also knew it was a powerful leverage tool
31:14
in politics. Okay, so let me just share this.
31:17
For many years, I didn't identify in it as anything. I was a Jesus
31:20
follower. I was a Christian. It wasn't until I
31:23
became very public in my stand
31:26
with immigrants. I actually went to
31:29
night school to study public policy for
31:31
housing policy. I'd been a public school teacher and did
31:34
education policy. I'd worked at Open Door and had a
31:37
transitional. So social. Social, um, human
31:40
service. So I'm an education, human
31:43
service and housing policy person who lives in
31:46
an immigrant community. All these things are happening now. My
31:49
expertise, by far, I know immigration policy better than anything
31:52
at every single level because of all the years of practice.
31:55
In 2009,
31:58
we had things, a lot of things in color. I don't want to go
32:01
through all the different political things that were happening, but my
32:04
awareness to the fact that the camp
32:06
that I had hailed from, evangelicals, were now on the
32:09
opposite side of the poor. I, um, mean, I could keep listing.
32:12
I'm like, well, this doesn't do well. So I had kind of
32:15
just never used a moniker, knowing that that was
32:18
my rootedness, that theologically I am
32:21
evangelical, but social practices,
32:24
social policy. I couldn't have been farther away. So how do
32:27
you integrate your theology and your practice with some
32:30
dumb moniker? And so I remember it was
32:32
January 2010, and there was a group of
32:35
us in Colorado that felt it
32:38
was insufficient that evangelicals had not weighed in on immigration
32:41
ever. This is before the evangelical immigration table. This is
32:44
before people were really speaking up.
32:47
Not that it has changed much in our own voting, but it is
32:50
not unusual to find an evangelical who supports immigration
32:52
reform. This is in the. I would say, the dark ages of
32:55
immigration. When you did not see that. And
32:58
I remember they put me as the first speaker, and this Other guy
33:01
as the bat, the last speaker. And we had this whole slew,
33:04
and, you know, NPR was there, the associate. It was a
33:07
big deal. Um, we were going to come out that to be
33:10
pro life, meant to be pro
33:12
immigrant. And I was the opening
33:15
speaker. And I thought, michelle, this is the time to
33:17
be the most bold.
33:21
And I. That was when I used it, uh, and said
33:24
who I was, and people were
33:26
shocked. How can you be an evangelical you care
33:29
about? I am. I'm my theology. And I honestly
33:32
think that the evangelicals that we know
33:35
of in the past, they are not following evangelical
33:38
theology. They have become a voting block that is
33:40
completely separated. I told you my hermeneutic was Jesus.
33:43
>> Loren: Yeah.
33:44
>> Speaker D: You know, if you read any of my books, I mean, you've read my book, you
33:47
see that. Enjoying the resistance. It couldn't be more biblical.
33:50
I've got. I focus on a prophet in every single
33:53
chapter, and then I focus on multiple parables of
33:56
what the kingdom of God looks like here,
33:59
you know, through these stories. That is an even.
34:02
I mean, evangelicals, one of the biggest things is the Bible as the
34:05
authority. I don't think they're reading their
34:08
Bible. So I would just say that
34:11
we have a missed discipleship. And then I
34:14
will just throw the entire Christian faith kind of. Not the
34:17
Catholics. They're the North Star on social, you know, social, um,
34:20
concerns and really
34:23
addressing social concerns in the world. They're the North Star.
34:26
Usually what I say is that
34:29
I'm a public theologian. It means social
34:32
concerns exist in the world and God has something
34:35
to say about. If evangelicals are really
34:38
living the way they say, then they need to know the Bible.
34:40
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:40
>> Speaker D: I was taught to memorize whole books of it.
34:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:43
>> Speaker D: I was growing up, and I had to diagram the King James
34:45
Version in English, and that's how much I had to
34:48
do.
34:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:49
>> Speaker D: You know the Bible.
34:51
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:52
>> Speaker D: Then you know that God has something to say
34:55
about social concerns that
34:57
exist in the world. And there are different
35:00
approaches to it in government,
35:03
however, the assault on the poor,
35:06
whether it's the welfare Queen of the 80s.
35:08
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
35:08
>> Speaker D: To the assault on immigrants, that they are
35:11
murderous and rapists.
35:13
Nobody should be endorsing that. That is not anywhere to be
35:16
found in the Bible.
35:17
>> Loren: Right.
35:18
>> Speaker D: And I could continue, you know, uh, in my
35:21
seminarian, you know, debate. I'm not an apologist, although I do
35:24
know my Bible. So I would say that
35:27
public theology should be something. We
35:29
all who follow the Bible should be public
35:32
theologians. And so I'd say we lack our public
35:34
theology. And we lack a public
35:37
discipleship we don't even understand. And the
35:40
idea that evangelical churches, for sure, in the past and
35:43
even now, it's like caring for the poor is
35:45
optional. I mean, let's not even get into
35:48
how you vote. That should not be. So. I,
35:51
I'm, I'm not sad to use the word evangelical. I
35:54
understand that it's loaded. It's a good leverage.
35:56
>> Loren: Right.
35:57
>> Speaker D: But it also makes me sad that my
35:59
people lack an understanding
36:03
of the Bible and God's care and concern
36:06
and centering of the poor.
36:08
And you see it all throughout, from Genesis
36:11
all the way through Revelations, uh, that God has a special
36:14
care and a special concern for the poor,
36:17
for the widow, for the orphan, for the
36:20
immigrant. And if we don't have a special concern,
36:22
then we are misaligned not only with Jesus and
36:25
what he demonstrated for us, but, but the word
36:29
that he.
36:29
>> Loren: Spoke, I'm thinking
36:32
about, obviously, like you
36:35
mentioned, I, uh, want to acknowledge and I think it's very acknowledged, like Ryan
36:37
Burge, if you're familiar with his research, he certainly pointed out
36:40
how evangelicalism, or the
36:43
label evangelical, certainly has become a voting
36:46
moniker almost more than a theological
36:49
moniker. But I'm also intrigued kind of by what you
36:52
said about discipleship, or at least that's how I understood it.
36:54
But you've obviously been in ministry
36:57
leadership. Your family has.
37:00
And I wonder. I'm just thinking,
37:04
I think I've heard this. Certainly there's a story.
37:06
What, recently or relatively recently? A couple
37:09
years. Right. Russell Moore. I'm thinking about
37:12
how, uh, he shared about
37:15
how pastors were getting pushback, about sharing,
37:18
um, the
37:20
Beatitudes.
37:23
Uh, I mean, it certainly seems like, and
37:26
I don't know if this is too broad brush, but it feels accurate. People
37:29
are being certainly discipled far more
37:32
from the cable news
37:35
or the influencers than they are
37:38
by scripture and their
37:41
pastor. And I think in some
37:44
ways, um, if I can go after
37:46
my own camp a little bit, pick my own side, I think
37:49
there is a challenge because one's
37:52
politics almost are elevated over
37:55
one's theology.
37:58
How do we begin to turn that tide?
38:02
>> Speaker D: So many things are coming in my head
38:05
right now. It's Martin Luther King talking about the
38:08
prophetic zeal that needs to be in our
38:10
churches. Um, okay, I'm going to
38:13
tell you a story. So I was
38:16
working to try to talk to senior
38:19
pastors all around the metro area, and it ended up
38:21
expanding nationally. And because
38:24
I had started Open Door
38:26
Ministries, a lot of pastors from
38:29
megachurches knew me.
38:30
>> Loren: Right.
38:30
>> Speaker D: Uh, and So I had audience with them, and so I set
38:33
a meeting. And, and almost everybody dreaded it because they knew what I was
38:36
going to talk about. And I'm not a, I'm not a mean
38:39
person. I actually have a really. When I'm not sick, I have a
38:42
really gentle voice. And, you know, and I'm. I'm
38:45
prophetic and unapologetic, but. But certainly not
38:47
harsh. And so I, I made a meeting.
38:50
It was one of the largest, um, churches in Douglas
38:53
county, very wealthy, third wealthiest county in the
38:56
country. And, you know, he. We had some
38:59
nice things. We were saying some niceties and kind of were getting
39:02
down to the conversation.
39:05
And I was sitting across on his couch, and he said, you know,
39:08
Michelle, nobody's talking about
39:10
immigration here.
39:12
>> Loren: Ah.
39:13
>> Speaker D: And I said nothing. And just in case I
39:16
hadn't caught it, he said it again with a little bit more
39:18
passion. Nobody's talking about
39:21
immigration here. And I
39:24
waited and I said, no,
39:27
you aren't talking about immigration here. And so
39:30
you have allowed. And I numbered the amount of thousands of people in his
39:33
congregation, this many thousands of
39:36
people to allow their views of
39:39
immigrants to be determined. Determined by cable
39:41
news.
39:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
39:42
>> Speaker D: And then the conversation really got spicy and we got into it,
39:45
you know, but that is the problem is
39:48
pastors know, because the Hebrew word
39:51
for immigrant or the Hebrew word ger is
39:54
used 92 times in the Old Testament.
39:56
All you do is hear the story of every
40:00
founding patriarch of the Old
40:02
Testament being on the move. Being an immigrant,
40:05
you get into the New Testament. Even Jesus isn't alive for two years
40:08
and already he's fleeing border.
40:11
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
40:11
>> Speaker D: We're told to live as soldiers
40:14
in a land and be citizens in heaven. And
40:17
so pastors know the theology is there.
40:20
I've had thousands, hundreds, at least
40:23
one on one meetings with pastors around
40:26
immigration and their, Their,
40:29
their nervousness, their fear to preach
40:31
about it.
40:33
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:33
>> Speaker D: Because public discipleship.
40:35
>> Loren: Right.
40:35
>> Speaker D: Uh, in the. What I'm talking about is we're talking about public being not
40:38
private. You know, public means we care about everybody.
40:40
>> Loren: Right.
40:41
>> Speaker D: So social concerns. We care about every. My discipleship
40:44
is. I got to make you care about everybody, including the immigrants
40:47
you're afraid of, including the gang bangers you're worried
40:49
about in the city, including, you know, everybody.
40:53
You shy away from it because in.
40:55
>> Loren: The evangelical work, it's church growth at all costs.
40:58
>> Speaker D: Well, it's not just that, but evangelicals don't have
41:01
bishops.
41:02
>> Loren: Yes. There's no one holding them accountable.
41:04
>> Speaker D: The polity of an evangelical church is the elder Born,
41:07
which is made up of the body in that community.
41:10
And usually wealthy.
41:13
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
41:13
>> Speaker D: Men.
41:14
>> Loren: Yeah, Jose.
41:15
>> Speaker D: Wealthy landed men, land owning men. You pick your most
41:18
powerful men to put on your altar board, and they
41:20
determine if that pastor is in or
41:23
out. You say a couple sermons, you're out, you're
41:26
out. And that's kind of the political spectrum, too. And I've
41:29
worked with congressional leaders, obviously, at both the Senate
41:32
and the House level. You know, I've had access to working with
41:35
people who've worked in both, you know, in some. Some of the White
41:37
House positions. And, you know, and then I've got State around the
41:40
country and stuff. When you have those private
41:42
conversations, it is very hard
41:46
to find a legislator at any
41:49
level behind closed
41:51
doors, not to admit
41:55
that there needs to be a
41:57
restoration for undocumented immigrants.
42:00
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
42:00
>> Speaker D: That knows the narrative that's being sold
42:03
is a lie.
42:04
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
42:05
>> Speaker D: But what happens is, when you stand in front of that pulpit or you
42:08
get out publicly, if you have a
42:10
congregation that pushes back in an older board, then
42:13
you're like, well, then I'm just going to be out and they're going to keep finding
42:16
that person.
42:17
>> Loren: Yeah.
42:17
>> Speaker D: I'm not defending any of it. I'm just saying that's the chronic
42:20
system. And right now, here we are. All these appointments and
42:23
all these. If you fight me, I'm
42:26
going to primary you. It's kind of the same
42:29
idea. So this is a time. There's always
42:32
a time. But this is an easy time to see
42:35
that the rise of the prophets need to come. Which is why I thought about
42:38
MLK and the prophetic.
42:39
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
42:40
>> Speaker D: Is that we should be both in our pulpits. We
42:43
need. We need. Well, Jesus came as prophet, priest
42:46
and king. We need leadership in all of that way.
42:49
But when we lose the prophet in the
42:51
pulpit, we sell our
42:53
congregation, our flock, to the
42:56
culture.
42:57
>> Loren: Yeah.
42:57
Let's stay on this, because I think this is an important point.
43:01
It seems like primarily I see this from an
43:03
outsider perspective, so tell me if you think I'm wrong. But it seems
43:06
like in evangelical churches, there tends to be a lot of,
43:09
like, we see you struggling with your marriage, we see you struggling
43:12
paying the bills. Kind of like a lot of empathy around
43:15
helping you have a good marriage, helping you with your relationships, helping you
43:18
with your kids, like, really kind of banging in on those
43:21
or cycling through those things, which I think
43:24
mainliners tend to struggle with. Like, mainliners crush the
43:27
prophetic, I think, but don't always help folks with
43:29
the empathy around Their kind of lived
43:32
experience struggles. Whereas, uh, from, again, an
43:35
outsider perspective, it seems like evangelicals really do a
43:38
good job saying, hey, I hear you when you're struggling with this and that
43:41
and the other. But then don't move them
43:44
to that. Like, hey, I hear you when you say you're struggling with your marriage and,
43:47
and paying your bills and all that. But let's move you to
43:49
that. I mean, uh, you've kind of already said it. Is
43:52
it, Is it just like
43:54
survival? You know, why pastors, I don't think.
43:57
>> Speaker D: Oh, the pastors of this. I don't think, first of all,
43:59
evangelicalism is majority white and it is
44:02
majority middle class income or higher.
44:04
>> Loren: Yeah.
44:04
>> Speaker D: Okay, so let's just start with that. You know, I told
44:07
you that proximity had transformed
44:10
me.
44:11
>> Loren: Yeah.
44:12
>> Speaker D: I remember when Nick Wolster. Stoff,
44:15
you know him?
44:16
>> Loren: I don't.
44:16
>> Speaker D: Okay, well, maybe I shouldn't go down that, that vein. But
44:19
he is a very well known,
44:22
um, theologian on the work of
44:25
justice.
44:25
>> Loren: Okay.
44:26
>> Speaker D: He's the one who coined the quartet of the
44:28
vulnerable, the poor, the widow, the orphan, the
44:31
immigrant. I was speaking Grand Rapids and
44:34
he was in the audience. Glad I didn't know that. That would have scared
44:37
me and made me nervous. I mean, he's kind of a big deal
44:39
globally. And he asked me, he's like, how did you know to go
44:42
from charity to justice? I didn't know who was asking
44:45
me that question, but I had to stop and
44:48
I said, because I saw injustice.
44:51
So if you don't see pain, poverty and justice, what
44:54
Nick said was, that's what happened to me too. So it was,
44:57
to him, it was like, how can I look at this white, educated, privileged
44:59
woman who completely understands moving
45:02
from charity to justice. That
45:05
can't be possible. When I think about the
45:08
socioeconomic background and framing.
45:11
How did you do that? And you
45:14
have to see injustice in order
45:17
to get to justice. That's why the black church is so good. I would
45:20
say, yeah, the main line's fine. The black church is
45:23
good. I mean, I probably argue with you on the mainline church, but I would
45:25
say that, that the prophetic and standing up for
45:28
justice and teaching us a way forward is the black church, uh,
45:31
uh, from the earliest of times,
45:34
not just through the 1960s.
45:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
45:36
>> Speaker D: I mean, the Jim Crow period, they were getting schools and yeah, they were
45:39
getting substantive schools. They'd get schools. They had substance, but
45:42
they got. They were getting them in for life and land, you know,
45:45
so you see, and they were doing it through the social network
45:48
of the church. And when the,
45:51
you know, when the leaders of Alabama said, we're
45:54
not going to have an ACLU in our
45:57
state, you know, all of a sudden the pastors of the Black
46:00
Church of Alabama said, well, we'll form
46:02
our own Alabama
46:05
to their. To their death, practically. Like their lives
46:08
were constantly in, you know,
46:11
question as far as their safety because of that prophetic nature
46:14
of we are going to fight for justice. They knew
46:17
it because they were intimate with injustice, because they were living
46:19
it. I would say that
46:23
moving from charity to justice is not
46:26
self serving for white privileged
46:28
America. And so you don't
46:31
see or feel the urgency of injustice.
46:34
>> Loren: Yep.
46:35
>> Speaker D: So you're going to focus and then also,
46:39
we are not a resilient
46:41
people.
46:42
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point.
46:44
>> Speaker D: And justice is a long work.
46:47
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:47
>> Speaker D: Whether you're white or not, if you're gonna do. I mean, you don't. Just because I
46:50
have my white skin. I mean, there's plenty of white senior pastors. I have
46:53
this friend, Alan Cross, white senior Southern
46:56
Baptist pastor. The people that we
46:59
would meet with, don't look at him and say, oh, well, because you're a white Southern
47:02
Baptist pastor, we're going to give you immigration reform.
47:05
They're like, no, we're going to kick you out of the church, which is what happened.
47:08
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
47:08
>> Speaker D: So I'm just saying that there's.
47:12
Justice is a very long work and we don't
47:15
have resilience by nature in our
47:17
congregations. We have a very myopic view.
47:20
So we're going to focus on our own family. And then there's folks in the
47:23
family that's re emphasized. That is, though, that is the God.
47:26
>> Loren: Yeah. Yep.
47:28
>> Speaker D: And then we're going to focus on our own emotional health, which is
47:31
important in our own spiritual development. But here's
47:33
is the ineptness of us. We
47:36
were made to be salt light in
47:39
darkness. And when you have light that just
47:41
cloisters into light, you can't even see if your light
47:44
is very strong. It's not until you put it into
47:47
the darkness that you can see that you're being effective. I
47:50
wish people would just preach that metaphor.
47:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
47:53
>> Speaker D: Run to the darkness with the light. Only
47:55
idiots would hide it. I'm sorry, there's a.
47:58
There's something in the Beatitudes about that. You know, we
48:01
as evangelicals and I would even say
48:04
white privileged America. And I have seen it even with
48:07
mainline churches in some communities for sure.
48:10
>> Loren: Yeah.
48:10
>> Speaker D: And then I've seen it even in Catholics, even though
48:13
their social teaching is the North Star.
48:16
But Evangelicals especially, we have
48:19
been hiding out in our basements
48:23
with our canned goods, uh, batteries,
48:26
and our flashlights, and we're waiting for the darkness to pass
48:29
until Jesus comes.
48:30
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
48:30
>> Speaker D: Instead of using everything we can with the light that he
48:33
says, I'm the light of the world, you are the light
48:36
of the world. Go shine.
48:38
>> Loren: Yeah.
48:39
>> Speaker D: And I think we cloister and we're taught to be afraid
48:42
through culture.
48:43
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
48:43
>> Speaker D: And then the church does not explain how powerful light
48:46
is in darkness. And then we created all these schools
48:49
that we can make our children grow up in bubbles. And
48:52
we're afraid of the darkness. And that is moronic because
48:54
the only thing that should be the darkness should be
48:57
afraid because the light is penetrating it. And I'll end with
49:00
this. God. Evangelicals believe in
49:03
the creation narrative. I mean, there's an intelligent design. There's some debate
49:06
on how long, but they all believe it to be a
49:09
real story. And the beautiful
49:12
thing about the narrative that echoes of the
49:15
light pushing out darkness is, guess what was created on
49:17
day one? God has been pushing out
49:20
darkness with light since day one. He is
49:23
commanded, commissioned, and equipped us to do
49:26
it. Horse not doing the work.
49:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
49:31
Let me ask one more question then, before we take a break.
49:35
I'm thinking again about the word proximity has
49:38
come up multiple times through this interview. Certainly you
49:41
have a book on that topic. I'm thinking also about. Are, uh,
49:43
you familiar with Brenda Salter McNeil's book?
49:46
>> Speaker D: She's a very good friend of mine.
49:47
>> Loren: Okay.
49:47
>> Speaker D: And yes, I know her well,
49:50
uh.
49:51
>> Loren: Because I read hers, I don't know, over the summer or
49:53
something.
49:54
>> Speaker D: Which one?
49:56
>> Loren: I, uh, can't remember. It's her recent book. Uh, but
49:59
from the book, it said something. She
50:02
said something that proximity breeds care, which is certainly something
50:05
you've alluded to. Again and again, I'm thinking again,
50:09
um, of this broader dynamics within
50:12
evangelicalism of
50:15
the kind of, like, the megachurch campus
50:18
when we think, like. I'm thinking about
50:20
throughout the metro, as we're sitting here in person,
50:23
I'm thinking of out east and out
50:26
north, and certainly you alluded to south of
50:29
these huge behemoth churches that really have become
50:32
like. I love your imagery of just like, we're going
50:35
to have a beacon of light here. We're not going to take our light out into the
50:38
darkness. Certainly, if I'm understanding correctly,
50:41
that really goes against the mission
50:44
and ethos of open door here.
50:46
>> Speaker D: Oh, yeah.
50:47
>> Loren: Of taking light into the darkness.
50:50
And it's so funny, um,
50:52
because, yeah, there's been like this protectionism
50:55
against how then
50:58
what are some simple
51:01
steps, some beginning practices
51:04
churches can do, pastors can
51:06
do, because maybe in
51:09
some context, like getting up and giving whole justice sermons
51:12
is going to get them right out the door. And they, they. They want to pay their
51:15
mortgage and keep their family fed, but also they want to move
51:18
the needle.
51:19
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Well, that's the reason I wrote
51:21
Proximity. The way I wrote it was because we
51:24
need to be willing to humble
51:26
ourselves and leave our places of
51:29
comfort.
51:32
We need to be willing to humble ourselves and
51:35
leave our places of comfort
51:39
to love people
51:42
who are different. That
51:44
is literally what
51:47
Jesus did. Jesus
51:50
left and emptied himself
51:53
of power and position
51:56
and rights to leave his
51:58
godliness. Uh, I mean, he kept it with him, but, you
52:01
know, the perfection, you know, the.
52:05
The essence of his power to be born as a
52:08
baby and be a human being for a
52:11
stretch also. Ah. He could
52:13
demonstrate. That's what I said. This is how we know one love is. Jesus Christ
52:16
laid down his life. Yes, he died. That was a part of it. That was
52:19
a huge part of it. But he laid it down from day
52:22
one.
52:22
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
52:23
>> Speaker D: And so I would say that the reason
52:26
proximity is powerful is it makes you search
52:28
scripture to try to understand the
52:30
complexities of the brokenness and the pain of the world.
52:33
And so what I would say is that what
52:36
I would want. The next steps would be to the pastor, not
52:39
the discipleship pastor or
52:42
the missions pastor. I want the senior pastor.
52:45
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
52:45
>> Speaker D: I want him as an elder board, not to give the
52:48
money.
52:49
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
52:50
>> Speaker D: But to. And not just one time.
52:52
>> Loren: Right.
52:52
>> Speaker D: But as a practice.
52:53
>> Loren: Yeah.
52:54
>> Speaker D: Be journeying as a practice to pair up. And this is
52:57
an organizing methodology I have with immigrant, non immigrant
53:00
pastors. That's why I get a lot of people who are supporting immigration
53:02
because they've walked with immigrant pastors and their
53:05
brothers.
53:06
>> Loren: Yeah.
53:06
>> Speaker D: And their sisters, their family. But for
53:09
a pastor from a well to do
53:12
congregation to literally not do anything
53:15
to the inner city pastor or for them, but do it
53:18
with them, um, so that we can mutually
53:20
encourage one another. If that would be
53:23
so radical. Because yes, preaching would change, but people
53:26
would follow. And here's the thing is we are watching a mass
53:29
exodus of a younger generation leaving the church
53:32
because they. The Christian Witness, specifically the
53:35
evangelical church. But the Christian Witness is a
53:37
scandal. It doesn't measure up. The
53:40
actions are embarrassing. If you would
53:42
see pastors and elders pouring themselves
53:45
out on behalf of the poor, not for a sermon illustration.
53:48
>> Loren: Right, right.
53:49
>> Speaker D: But as a practice and a way of Life.
53:52
Yeah, that's what I would want to
53:55
see.
53:55
>> Loren: Yeah.
53:55
>> Speaker D: Because I know it would be transformative. It is
53:57
humiliating, humble and humiliating
54:00
to pour yourself out in a
54:03
community that has a perpetual
54:06
poverty problem, who has been written out of a system,
54:09
who doesn't have the resource, that doesn't have the economic,
54:12
the social or the political capital to be able
54:15
to survive, and then gets blamed for
54:18
it now, uh, from the inside.
54:21
How dare you. Yeah, but, uh, from. From looking
54:24
as a person who's grown up from the outside.
54:26
Come be with us.
54:31
>> Loren: That's good. Let's take a
54:34
break and we'll come back with some closing questions.
54:40
>> Speaker D: All right.
54:41
>> Loren: We're back with Michelle Frigna. Warren. Thank you so much
54:44
for this conversation. Closing questions. I
54:47
always tell folks. We tell folks. Co host Martha, Shout
54:50
out.
54:50
Uh, you can take these as seriously or not as you want to,
54:53
but if you're Pope for a day,
54:57
what does that look like for you?
54:58
>> Speaker D: My goodness. If I was Pope for a day, I really would shake things up
55:01
because the Pope is supposed to be the head of the church and
55:04
has a global reach and some
55:07
of that has been used for harm. I'm thinking of
55:10
sort of the Papal Bulls of the doctrine of discovery
55:13
and all the harm of colonization. I
55:16
actually wrote a paper that I presented in Oxford now, a couple
55:19
years ago now on how we
55:21
could fix our white Christian
55:24
nationalism problem and the Pope
55:26
could do it. Oh, so if I were Pope for a day.
55:29
>> Loren: Oh, my goodness.
55:30
>> Speaker D: I would insist that we, as the
55:34
church establish. I'm talking about the global Christian
55:36
Church established a truth Racial
55:39
Healing and Transformation Commission, much like the
55:43
healing commissions of itself. Apartheid. I mean, there's been many
55:46
across the whole, whole world in history. But we would
55:49
have a truth Racial Healing Transformation Commission,
55:51
and the church would not run it. At least the white or
55:54
dominant or Euro church, so the black church could run
55:57
it. But that we would need to present
56:00
ourselves before a truth
56:02
commission to answer for our
56:05
atrocities and then ones we continue
56:08
to perpetuate by insisting that
56:11
a kingdom that has come through Christ and his humility
56:14
and emptying himself out, that
56:17
we have grabbed power,
56:20
we have tried to have dominion. I mean, like, we should follow the
56:23
temptations of Christ. You know, he did not say yes to being
56:26
in power and we need to say no as well, and that
56:29
we should submit humbly to a commission, and if we lose titles
56:32
and buildings and property, so be it.
56:34
So, yeah, I would establish a commission and I would make the
56:37
white Euro church
56:41
be the ones who have to answer to it.
56:43
>> Loren: That is Perhaps the most well thought out
56:46
response I think I've gotten, perhaps.
56:47
>> Speaker D: Well, if you read the paper that I wrote for
56:50
even the progressive group at Oxford, he was quite shocked.
56:53
>> Loren: I feel like I need to, like, have a link in the show notes,
56:56
so.
56:56
>> Speaker D: Oh, I should find out where in the press
56:59
link it could be. I will look for it.
57:01
>> Loren: Send it to me. Um, a theologian or historical
57:03
Christian figure you don't want to meet, bring back
57:06
to life.
57:07
>> Speaker D: Okay, there's two.
57:08
>> Loren: Yeah, that's allowed.
57:08
>> Speaker D: I don't want to bring anybody back to life.
57:10
>> Loren: That's okay.
57:11
>> Speaker D: I appreciate them for their.
57:12
Okay, so very Old Testament Deborah. I
57:15
actually write about her in chapter 8 or 9
57:18
of the Power of Proximity, as
57:21
a worship leader, as, uh, a wife of a man who was
57:23
respected at the Cape. In that
57:26
scenario, as well as one that grows up in a fundamental
57:29
evangelical church, how would God
57:32
choose a woman to lead?
57:36
My husband did a toast
57:39
probably 15, 20 years ago now and said to a
57:42
modern day Deborah, he got me a palm tree and said, a
57:45
modern day Deborah, because he was watching me
57:48
lead senior pastors, national leaders,
57:51
literally to war in the political realm,
57:54
in the spiritual realm, on behalf of justice.
57:57
And so, Deborah, she says, who am I? In
58:00
her song, who am I But a mother in
58:02
Israel? That's why I feel, who am I? Just a mother in
58:05
Denver.
58:05
>> Loren: Yeah.
58:06
>> Speaker D: These little kids, this is hard to even believe. So,
58:08
Deborah, oh, my goodness. I want to talk to her.
58:11
And then the second one is Mother
58:13
Cabrini, hands down. I write about her enjoying the
58:16
resistance. I write about. A lot of people join the resistance,
58:19
but Mother Cabrini here in
58:22
Colorado, we no longer have Columbus Day, we have
58:24
Cabrini Day because we want to respect
58:27
Italian American heritage or
58:30
heritage without using someone who
58:33
did some horrible acts.
58:34
>> Loren: Yes.
58:35
>> Speaker D: And Cabrini was. She was the
58:38
first American citizen to be
58:40
canonized as a saint.
58:42
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
58:42
>> Speaker D: She is the saint of the immigrant.
58:46
She wanted to do work, and the Pope told
58:48
her because she had a bad lung condition, she was
58:51
too weak, and she wouldn't give up.
58:54
And so instead of being able to go to the east, he said, go to the
58:57
west and help the Italian immigrants in New
59:00
York. And she ended up starting and moved
59:03
all the way from the west, further
59:06
west, and ended up in China with the largest Catholic order
59:09
in her name. And I will just say that I am
59:12
struggling with whooping cough because I had complications, because
59:15
since I was a very little girl, four, just like a
59:18
rainy four or five, I have very weak lungs.
59:21
I'm an asthmatic. When things happen I'm
59:24
hospitalized. Um, I mean, like, it is not. It doesn't happen
59:27
often.
59:27
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
59:27
>> Speaker D: I'm very fierce, but when it does, I have no good health to
59:30
fall on.
59:31
>> Loren: Yeah.
59:31
>> Speaker D: So to be hospitalized on oxygen, struggling these months
59:34
later. That's right. That's about right. Well, Mother
59:37
Cabrini was fierce for her love for Christ
59:40
and her care for the poor, her care for immigrants.
59:43
I'm an Italian American. She's an Italian
59:46
immigrant who became an American, and she was
59:49
told to play it safe because of her health.
59:52
Exactly like people wanted to bubble wrap me.
59:55
>> Loren: That's a good answer. Um,
59:58
this is a broad question, so feel free to answer how
1:00:01
you wish.
1:00:02
What do you think history will remember from our current time and
1:00:04
place?
1:00:05
>> Speaker D: It will not remember us kindly.
1:00:09
We've had a good conversation. I haven't.
1:00:12
I felt passionate at times, but not
1:00:15
emotional.
1:00:16
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:00:16
>> Speaker D: I feel emotional.
1:00:21
History's hand is being written,
1:00:24
and it needs to be stopped because
1:00:27
the church. And that's all of, um, us, not just the
1:00:29
evangelicals.
1:00:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:00:31
>> Speaker D: The Christian church will
1:00:33
not be remembered
1:00:36
kindly.
1:00:39
>> Loren: Yeah. How hard to argue with
1:00:42
turning.
1:00:43
Turning this a little bit more optimistic, I suppose, or
1:00:46
hopeful. What would you then hope for the
1:00:49
future of Christianity?
1:00:50
>> Speaker D: I won't tell you right now.
1:00:51
>> Loren: Yeah, we've talked about this. Yeah.
1:00:52
>> Speaker D: Hope is what we got. You know, I've had friends. I had this one particular friend.
1:00:55
He's like, how. How can you do another day? And it was
1:00:58
during a really bleak time. I said, you know what? Every day
1:01:01
I have to drink a glass of hope.
1:01:03
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:01:03
>> Speaker D: And sometimes that glass is asked to be huge.
1:01:06
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:01:06
>> Speaker D: I mean, hope. It's not about the present.
1:01:08
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:01:09
>> Speaker D: It is this conviction, this faith to believe
1:01:12
that what I see right now does not have to be. It's setting a
1:01:15
vision of what can be. So I hope
1:01:17
for what I have been literally
1:01:20
created and called. I think
1:01:23
humanity has been called to hope for peace,
1:01:26
for wholeness, for restoration. But there
1:01:29
will not be peace without
1:01:32
doing the work of justice. So
1:01:35
my hope for my people and, you know, enjoying the resistance,
1:01:37
a third of that book is how to help our people.
1:01:41
And when I say help my people, they're one of my people.
1:01:44
My hope is that we will understand
1:01:47
a, uh, public theology that would
1:01:50
drive and deepen us
1:01:53
into a public discipleship and
1:01:56
engagement. No more private
1:01:59
need it. No more private. Needed
1:02:02
meaning public for everyone. God so
1:02:05
loved the whole world. The church needs to love the
1:02:08
whole world in
1:02:11
action and in truth.
1:02:15
>> Loren: All right, well, I appreciate this conversation.
1:02:18
Thank you so much for your time. Um, obviously, the book
1:02:21
is power. No, I can tell you tell.
1:02:24
I'm getting the titles confused. Give your book, give how
1:02:26
folks can connect with you, all that stuff.
1:02:29
>> Speaker D: First of all, I'm not an email snob, so if you email
1:02:32
me@michelleforignowarren.com
1:02:35
it would be very rare that. I mean, something happened. I
1:02:38
got whooping cough. So email me again. So my
1:02:41
first. So Michelle ferrignowarren.com is my
1:02:44
website. I obviously can get to know me. I have
1:02:46
organizations locally and nationally that can help you do the
1:02:49
work of justice groups. I work with groups I
1:02:52
trust. Even my company, Virago Strategies, you can see who
1:02:55
I work with. I do a lot of technical assistance for church, churches and
1:02:58
nonprofit, um, leaders to help them do the work of justice.
1:03:01
Um, and also if you're in Denver, how to actually specifically
1:03:04
help migrant arrivals. And now how to respond in
1:03:07
protection defense to possible immigration deportation.
1:03:09
>> Loren: Gosh, I wish we had more time to talk about that because just some news came out on
1:03:12
that and churches, but we don't have time.
1:03:13
>> Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, check out the website. But
1:03:16
my books, I have two books right now, and on my website
1:03:19
I have podcasts and articles, and I've written quite a bit. But the first
1:03:22
book was the Power of Proximity Moving Beyond
1:03:25
Awareness to Action. And the next book
1:03:28
is actually picks you right up from chapter nine into
1:03:31
chapter one. It originally was supposed to be called
1:03:34
the Power of Resistance.
1:03:35
>> Loren: Okay.
1:03:36
>> Speaker D: I changed it Join the Resistance, because it came out and I
1:03:39
was writing it right around George Floyd.
1:03:41
Uh, and I didn't want anybody to think that they
1:03:44
should start something new, uh, that we needed to
1:03:47
join the move that was already happening. Not just for
1:03:50
a day.
1:03:51
>> Loren: Right.
1:03:51
>> Speaker D: I mean, a day is fine.
1:03:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
1:03:52
>> Speaker D: But keep going. And so join the resistance. Step
1:03:55
into the good work of Kingdom Justice. It has a
1:03:58
study guide built into it. It has a Spotify playlist.
1:04:01
You know, it's. It's a. It's an in depth book, a kind of a
1:04:04
manual to, uh, how to do the work of public
1:04:07
discipleship and engagement. As a Christian, I
1:04:09
might have evangelical rootedness, but I wrote that book
1:04:12
with Catholics in mind and mainlines inline. I
1:04:15
think it has a generous Christian orthodox.
1:04:17
>> Loren: Yeah, I forgot about the, the songs. That was a fun part about the
1:04:20
book.
1:04:21
>> Speaker D: I'm a musician.
1:04:21
>> Loren: Yeah, there's. Because there's another book. Well, we don't have time to discuss, but
1:04:24
thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate the
1:04:26
conversation. Always, um, leave folks with a word of peace.
1:04:29
So may God's peace be with you.
1:04:31
>> Speaker D: Thank you. And also with you.
1:04:39
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
1:04:42
The Future Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1:04:45
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