Latest / The Habit Lab / Episode 56- Habits of Love and Curiosity: in a Faith-Divided Family

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Episode 56- Habits of Love and Curiosity: in a Faith-Divided Family · The Habit Lab

• 1:08
  Speaker 1: We all have areas in our life we might feel stuck or overwhelmed.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: So join me, jenna Zint Habit, coach, teacher and follower of Jesus, as we go after little bits of better by building offensively small habits that create big impact.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: This is the Habit Lab Podcast.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, everybody, welcome to Habit Lab.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: What you just missed, before we press recorded, is that my brother burped in the microphone terribly and it resonated in my headphones.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: It's like supersonic I'm still the little brother I was like that was such a little brother move.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, so if you tuned into our last episode, we were talking about habits of connection for siblings.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: This one's not not going to be quite as long because I wanted to tell the story of John Jenkins, because it's kind of fun getting it in one concise area.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: But this specific episode I would recommend, if you're tuning into this one, go back and listen to the one previous before so that you have a little bit more context.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: But I wanted to have this episode of habits, of how we've stayed connected when our beliefs are different, cause I know that we're not alone in the experience of one of your family members, like I'm I don't know evangelical, christian, whatever, and you no longer would subscribe to those labels, and it's really, it's a pain point whether someone finds the faith or leaves a faith and then redefines it, deconstruct it.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: It's just a fissure in families which makes sense because it's a big shift in culture, what you grew up in together.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: But I just wanted to break apart some of the things, some of the habits and things we've done that have enabled us to stay connected even when we have such different worldviews, beliefs, faiths.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: So I guess I should start with.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: We grew up you should add some of the pieces, but in a spirit-filled church it was non-denominational and it was small.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: We grew up in this little island, so maybe 200 people, did you say our church was about.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: So they raised hands.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: They're speaking in tongues.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: There's a bit of prophesying but not like everybody, like at my church here now it's like you can all hear god dancing, dancing and very energetic traveling and also really good community yeah, we have all our parents best friends got saved around the same time and they all got married and then all had um children that all became best friends, so so we grew up in a tight community as possible.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: And then they went to the school, like there was a little Christian school and then my mom had a preschool where most of them went to.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: So we did grow up in a really good community and then we'd have like traveling evangelists.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: I actually remember the first time I encountered the Holy Spirit was I was like nine or 10.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: And it was someone who had come to speak at our church.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: But they, like our church, the normal was not that people would pray for you to fall out in the spirit, it was only if we had guests come.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: And I remember they came and they we were in the children's church and they had us come into the main sanctuary Cause they're like you don't want to miss it, the Holy spirit's here.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: And I was like okay, Cause it was not our normal, and I was like I don't know what to expect.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: And then I remember when we were driving home that night, dad wanted to ask questions, but it felt intimate and then I also didn't have the words, like I didn't know quite what happened.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: So that was, yeah, that was our childhood.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: And then we went to another church, similar vibe, probably like 300, 400 people, so a little bigger, same same Island, but same kind of charismatic evangelist.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: What we have where we're from is a few little islands.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: You had to go to a couple of different bridges to get to our church.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: It was called Collington Island.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Actually, there's a Netflix series called the outer banks.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: It's made about our hometown.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: Not accurate.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: But what do you tell people?
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: A lot of treasure there.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, lots of boat life.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: That's real too.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: But what I was going to say is then after that, I went to college.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: So after we grew up in our home, I went to college.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: You went to two years at a similar flavor Christian church, right?
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Christian leadership program.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Leadership program in Texas called the Honor Academy.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: It was with Ron loose and teen mania, and then after that tell me about how.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: Can you kind of explain where you went from there, faith wise, cause we were on the same page up until then, which was, like you, 20, 21.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll keep it high level, cause I think most of what we're going to talk about is how, as I, went a different direction.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: How do we maintain connection?
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: And then, what are the habits that I've seen as different people engaged with me?
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: And how do we keep um, keep trust and keep openness when we have different viewpoints?
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: Um and and I was deeply intellectualized and feeling wise and community based in the church, but as different parts of it didn't start to feel as much truth to me anymore, it was really hard to let go of, and I've been going on mission trips for many, many years, but going on mission trips in different places and trying to tell them that I had the truth, but they felt like they had the truth as well, and there was just whatever pieces of it that I let go of.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: I no longer held it as my ultimatum.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: This is the only thing that is right and the reason I left the church because it was you're in or you're out, or you're right or you're wrong, and not everyone is that strict within the church.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: But there's so much beauty for me within the church because we actually grew up in a really beautiful church community, so it took me longer to leave than actually when I was intellectually I don't believe X, y, z I still didn't want to leave my community and I didn't want to leave the people that had loved me and supported me.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: And it was on the mission field where I finally was like I'm not.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Even this doesn't feel aligned with my truth.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: And then when you're traveling abroad a lot more, that's probably when you got more people and that was more of sorry to interrupt, but that was more of like staying fully abroad was like leaving the Bible belt and leaving all of the you know, oppression of.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: You have to have this view or not, and many people are very uplifting in it.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: But there is a lot of control within a viewpoint.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: And as I started to then try different ways of life and you know, at first I was then like well, if I don't believe this, then I don't believe any of it.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Later I've now swung back much more to like how can I integrate as much of that into my life?
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: Because there's so much that I agree with and believe with and I see threads across different theologies and viewpoints.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: But I'm not saying you're wrong or I'm right.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: I know I'm wrong and I'll always be wrong and prove myself wrong again.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: But to go back to accepting parts of it has been really beautiful part of that journey for me.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: But as I start to try to live a different life and just explore what I feel like is right or wrong or try to discover that the amount of condemnation or judgment that I felt from people that I felt so much love by before, and a lot of that love I believe it then felt conditional love and conditional oh, we loved you because you were doing what you're supposed to be doing and I had to really draw away, block people on social media so they weren't seeing choices that I was making or what I was writing, to actually be able to just find what I wanted to be.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: And in that path of discovering then got to swing again, like I said, much closer back to where I sing worship songs all the time.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: I know he sends us videos of him doing worship songs all the time and I asked him why at one point and you're like, that's how I learned to play the guitar that was the formative right and it's ministering to my soul, like songs of adoration and service and getting you outside of yourself.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Compared to some pop love song, I resonate with so much of it.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: But, as we were talking earlier and I think part of this conversation is the direction is to go towards.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: How was it that I maintain closeness with you and the love and the openness that I was able to share with you, even as I make decisions that are that you would never make for yourself or for your family?
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: yeah, can we actually start at the beginning, like when you first started to walk away?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: It was super hard.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was hard for all of us because I stayed in the faith.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: So how do I love him when we don't agree?
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: I think there's a time of grieving too.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: I remember actually crying one time, being like oh, because I just knew this was going to change a piece of our relationship.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Actually, I remember the house that I lived in and it was a good cry session on the couch and I just remembered, though, kind of feeling comforted from the Lord, like, yes, there is a grief of what you had is no longer, but like it doesn't mean you've lost your brother, like you can still choose relationship, versus like it did feel black or white.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Um, so we had to figure out what that looked like, but for our, for one of our parents, for a dad, for a dad.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I was like he would say it too.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: It was really hard for him and he came very I understand, like it's his dad, like it's different for me as a sibling, my role versus him, almost like, I think, as a parent, my awareness now, like personally being a parent, of like their actions reflecting some level of my identity and the job that I did in raising them.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: So I'm sure, whether he's aware of it or not, like some sadness and kind of personal maybe failing that he experienced in it, but it was very black or white or dogmatic.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: How did you experience it?
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: and when I started to before I had, like, been like I'm no longer in the church or whatever when, when it became more clear to me like I'm discovering or I'm discussing theology with him or different concepts, or how does this line up with X, y, z?
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: And he didn't want to have a conversation because he had a belief system that to even question it was sinful.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: And while that feels like a pretty controlling viewpoint, if that's his viewpoint, that's fine.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: But that's not how it felt at first.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Right, it was pretty sad.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: No, no, how controlling was it?
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's always been sad with it, but like for me having compassion and loving him.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like for him to think, you know if someone thinks their child has a terminal illness and they are going to die, but the child's like I'm fine, even if the child believes it was fully fine.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: And I'm now the child saying like I don't have this illness.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: But he's like you're making yourself sick, you're drinking poison.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: If he believes that fully, I have compassion and love for him in that.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: But how then that actually then separated our closeness for a long period of time and we're much closer now.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: But compared to the way that you engaged with me, you know he, he didn't have curiosity for my experience.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: He had what felt like judgment or this is bad, and there was so much of.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: He was like if I would only do anything in my life, it's to get my son back to Christ.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: So then, rather than like, feel like he's inquiring about my life, he's sending me verses or sending me sermons and I'm like dad, I've made a choice and, who knows, I may change again, but I still want to feel your love for me.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: But for him the most important thing was to bring me back to the kingdom, so I'm not judging him for that, but it actually pushed us farther away and it closed off vulnerability rather than opened up vulnerability that's a good way to put it, do you almost feel like?
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: it almost feels like to me, which I've not asked dad.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: We've chatted about this a lot and we won't ever expose dad beyond something that would feel appropriate, but um, I was gonna say it almost felt like you were a project, rather than his son like to get you, like you were, there's an assignment.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: With his interactions with you.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: It was no longer relational.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: It felt very project based To him.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: What is more important is my soul going to heaven than a relationship with me, and that is not necessarily bad.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is really profound.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: It's what is your viewpoint?
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Did you feel like that initially, or did you come to that compassion I mean I had?
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: to come to that compassion for myself in the church.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the mic's funky here.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: I had to come to that compassion to myself to be able to leave the church Like if I do this and go through that same line of questioning.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: So while I was sad and frustrated, I accepted that with him but was still frustrated.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: I remember being the.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: I was like this odd middleman because I was navigating my new relationship with the change of dynamic, but then dad was coming to me and confiding, not confiding.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: There wasn't necessarily vulnerability, there was a lot of pain, but it was like what's our plan?
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: It was like angsty action driven versus, like you know, softness you know but he'd be like you know, softness, you know, but, um, like, what's our plan for John?
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Or I I quoted these scriptures on him, or I sent him the sermon and he he's not see.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: I think he really was hoping that the information he was giving you would somehow lead to a conversion mode version moment.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: But it was bizarre for me watching like the same thing, tons of compassion for like and even being in the same mindset that he is versus you, like I get his strategy the goal, but I feel like the strategy was what was not like yeah, so and that's go ahead well, I was just gonna say so.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I remember because he just got more and more tunnel vision.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: He was like he'd be, he was just tore up, but less about your heart and more about like.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: He can't post these, you know, like a picture of him at a bar on Facebook.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: He can't you know, and he'd get so, like right or wrong, he's like honor thy father and mother.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: And.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: I would.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: There'd be things that I would ask dad I'm like, dad, do you like, when you talk to him, when you're not preaching or trying to convert him, like what conversations are you having?
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: And it was interesting Cause it's almost like I remember him saying he's like I don't know what else to talk to him about.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: And I was like, well, what did you talk to him about before he left the church?
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: And he was like I don't remember.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: And it was like, and I was like totally, but also you surfed and you like shells and like, on some level, coaching him through, like remembering, like almost like once he tried to the people like, yeah, like them in their eyes, ask about their children ask about his day Like truly.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I remember having these conversations of like teaching dad how he could have relationship with you, after it was probably like a year of like okay, dad, so that's not working, do you want?
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: I remember saying do you want a relationship with John or do you want to just preach at him?
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: And like truly not being sassy.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Like you get to choose, like right now he was just choosing the preach and he would send me the um, he'd send me the links that he sent you, or the articles or the snapshots, and like the, the messages and it almost was like what's the word when people like spiral?
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: like, uh, spiral, yeah, but like any, grab anything.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Maybe this will fit yeah, like maybe this, maybe this maybe like a manic almost is kind of what it felt like and um, anyway, so at one point with dad.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: So then he's like okay, so then he'd like ask me for like questions to ask you.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: And I was like coaching him through, like well, he's in school right now.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Have you asked him about his schools going, or how about like his apartment hunt or his roommate or?
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: And he would, he'd have a couple of questions.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: He was like, ah, but I I don't agree or I don't like this aspect.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: I'm like totally.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you can't ask.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Then the other thing that it kind of triangulate.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: He started triangulating a bit where he'd want me to talk to things for you about him and I just had to make a boundary with dad.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: It's like, hey, dad, I'm gonna manage my relationship with john.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: This is not a spot where I can hear your heart.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: We can process some stuff, but I'm not going to do things you request of me for him, like I'm gonna have my own relationship and you can have your own relationship.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: And then probably like an 18 months or two years into it, I had to draw another boundary of like cause.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: That would be, you would be all of our conversations.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: It's like it was a vacuum of the relationship dad and I used to have and finally I got sad and lonely.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: I was like dad, I feel sad.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: You haven't asked me about me in a really long time because you're at the obsession level and again, with compassion, we understand why this was coming and again I see dad's point, even probably more.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: But this has become a vacuum, an obsession that's even sucked the connection relationship from our relationship.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: So I think that was on my end of things.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like what you asked earlier, like was I hurt or angry or how did it feel?
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And I think it, you know, it's like I can have compassion and understand it, but what hurts?
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: It's like I can honor someone's worldview, but then I also want my worldview to be honored.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: And, as I'm like, if he's wanting to intellectually or you know, scripturally whatever that word would be but like to dive into scripture and debate over something, but he actually isn't open for a debate or a conversation, if he's trying to change my mind but he's not open to have his mind changed, those are the things that then it's like okay, so you're, really it's a one way street.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Right now.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: That hurts, especially then from a father, son, when we were got to be so close and that is a contrast that I, you know, as we pull into one of our ways of staying so close.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: John and Jenna yeah.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Worldviews can differ and even for being on the mission field like I've been on the mission field for years and it's like you can't, you don't just gonna be like you need to change and this is the truth, or a lot of people do.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: That was not my approach.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: It and to offer what has worked for you that is the part of Christianity that resonated so much with me is like the beauty, the healing, the tools, the service, like so much goodness in it.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: If people want that, but to say that I know what you need, even though they don't know someone or haven't taken the time to know someone, that is what a lot of times pushes people farther away from Christianity.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: They're like this is your path.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: It's like here's our path and what's your path.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: And that is something that I believe you've done really well, like the openness to love me no matter what, and to discover and even in all, my very differentness from you to be genuinely interested in how much that supports my vulnerability and my ability to express deeper things and concepts, where I'm learning about this and here.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: And we have gotten much deeper in theological conversations and worldview conversations than dad and I have gotten with since leaving the church, because of your openness and because of the way that you approach it.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: I think one of the things is I always see my brother.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: I think at first I had to let go of the fear.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: It almost feels like sometimes at the beginning there was more fear when you'd share something different and be like oh am I agreeing by by listening or asking questions or like you know that that like the way, the truth and the light, and I still clearly I have not deconstructed my faith, but the idea of like disempowering fear, because how often fear leads to control.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Or like it kills relationship, it kills connection and love.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Like, honestly, fear usually makes you self-protect.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Or like go on the offense, you know either defense or offense.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: And like, oh, actually fear, you don't get to muddle what the relationship that we are having and I was thinking about some of the habits we've had, because we've um but can I pause for a second?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Like you you mentioned, like you're still in the church and your path, and I love you and your path and that but, your ability to have conversations with me.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: It's like when you're shut off from having a conversation, you're not actually choosing that path.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: You're choosing to not look at anything else.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: But to me you're a stronger Christian when you're having conversations with people who are not in it to actually understand their worldview or to question your own worldview.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: If you question yourself and then choose that same path, you have actually chosen it.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: If you refuse to look at options, you're like I'm only going to have orange chicken and rice, like our kids do my kids' favorite meal it's favorite meal, meal.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Well, have you ever had pizza before?
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: You know whatever that could be, it's like to choose it, I believe, actually is a deepening in faith rather than a control mechanism.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: that makes sense.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: And then for me too, like what's helped connection is like still going to your world, like I've taken my kids and gone and stayed at your commune, you know, with people where I'm like I don't know what country this person's from or who's going to be there tomorrow when we wake up.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: But I think the awareness of like thinking ahead of time, I'm like, okay, what do I need to stay, feel safe, what do I need to be able to be in his, not afraid of his, world, but still maintain, even outside of the faith conversation, it feels like a boundary for like a mom with littles coming into a brother's life without children, like there's just gonna be differences of navigating each other's worlds and being okay with the differences, realizing that was true for the faith piece too.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: So there are times that we'll have conversations and I'll be like oh, like hey, there's little ears listening, can we talk about this later?
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: And of course you're actually super respectful and it's nothing.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: You never are intentional bringing up something crazy, like you wouldn't talk blatantly about sex or blatantly curse or I don't know something crazy spiritual in front of the kids.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: But there's things that I know as a mom that they've picked up on, when even Aaron and I have talked about it, that I was like they have too many questions and it's too.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I actually don't want to do this work later.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: So, um, I'll have this conversation, but do you mind pausing?
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: And there's times that you you've like been like no, no, I'm not going down that road and I'm like I know I just also know what audrey's hearing or thinking and I more of like.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Can you save me the work by not having to like clean this up later and you've respected that.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: So it's like and that part is also not my choice Like that's your choice of your children, Like you are my peer and like my twin of a sibling, where we, I want to be able to talk about everything with you, but your children of various young ages, it's like I mean, I'm already making that effort, but if there's anything that I think is like well, it'd be okay to talk about, if you have any boundary with that, that's your boundary to make.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate your respect and that's the thing.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: There's times that you're like wait, no, it shouldn't be because you wanted me to be.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Like don't be too close-minded or religious, I'm like totally.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: But there's things that you don't understand a lot of work, we're just not.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: We're like.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: We saw moana too yesterday, yeah, and you know they're a native tribal group and they're drinking something.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Probably was ayahuasca yeah, john, my birdie man brother was like that was definitely, but I whispered that to you, yeah, yeah.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: And then later after the movie audrey was.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: our rosie was like are, do you think they're christian?
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: And they were definitely not christian and had any view of christianity there and there's a lot of worldview things to explain there.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: But I'm like I can explain a lot more of a global perspective probably than Jenna can just because of my travel, but this is not the time for it.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: But I also appreciate what you did, give a couple sentences, but I know that you're going to defer to me being the parent to get the shaping view, like you're not challenging the kids in front of me.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: But you said something about different tribes and blah, blah, blah, a couple of things, and then you let me be the one to really form, so I think I can trust and not be afraid.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's one point.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: The other thing I was thinking about with kids is the second day you're here, rosie comes up and she goes.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: She whispers to me Mom, I just heard Uncle John say a bad word.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: And it made me laugh.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: And I say a bad word.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: And it made me laugh and I was like replaying, because sometimes the f-word will slip out.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: It's not crazy.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: You purposely, I know you edit yourself right when you're in our world.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: I don't say fantastic as much stop that, yeah, that f-word.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: But anyways, my point was she said, and I was like, which one?
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Because I was like couldn't.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: I was replaying her conversation, I couldn't hear it.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: She was like the opposite of heaven.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: So I was like, oh yeah, I actually think what I like when you come one, you're respectful and do you're aware of our family culture, but the flip side is I'm not afraid of you being like John, slipping out, because I know that I would rather have those conversations with Rosie in the home and her be able to talk about it than afraid of it.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: So then we?
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: My answer to her was like yeah, and she was like why would he say a bad word?
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: And I was like well, actually, different families have different um values for what is and is not about it.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: So it actually has helpful conversations that I want to have happen when they're in the home.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: You know, does that make sense?
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: I also feel like I was thinking about I think too, on some level, not because dad would be like.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: I remember different points when dad would be like but are you saying the things?
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Are you confronting John in the same way?
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: And I was like oh, I mean, I'm loving John and if something that I'm not going to, not I'm not going to, people please and agree with something that I don't agree with but I don't I.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: I personally, I think a lot of times the best way is like my, my life and how I love and how I show up in relationship and the fruit of our marriage, our family would speak more potently to the character or what we're, our belief and what we've.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Nourish our family life with more than texting you scriptures or video clips of sermons.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: What would you say to that?
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Definitely A hundred percent.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: And again going back to like if I'm fascinated by lots of things in the Bible and read things still and like, try to interpret things, but if dad sends or says something but then isn't open to have a conversation about, it.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: I'm like so that you're just like shooting things over the wall, hoping something resonates, but don't have anything.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Come back, when my girlfriend moved in last year, you know, he was like called me.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: He was really upset and he was like, okay, it was more, you know, direct confrontation from him.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: He's like God invented marriage and it's bad for you when you you're moving in, not married, which I totally understand that his view is not good.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I'm like that god also invented adam and eve and they weren't married when god invented man and they, you know, had offspring.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: But it's like, well, but then and it just like spiraled out and went and I was like there is history and we can talk about the more nuances of it, but I'm okay with this decision.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Do you want to debate the bible or do you?
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: And it was just then went off in a different direction.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: That was, didn't talk to him for three months after that yeah, it is interesting because I do think there's this element of like.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: I think it's different as the dad, but like, hey, I don't like, I think there's pros and cons to that choice and consequences or whatever.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: But then the awareness of him being almost like, sad and offended and it affecting connection where to me, I don't know if I'm like you.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Just you have said that you don't subscribe to the same rules that we do anymore, so why?
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I think there's other tactics, like he could pray, he could fast, you know different things that he could do in the sense of fulfilling his I don't know what the word, what would you say?
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Like the duty of reconverting you, or what do you think?
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: How would you?
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: phrase what his what his thought is, not what I'm saying is right or wrong.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Right, I mean I again, I think it's a lot of inquiry, like like, I mean just classic sales like um, to actually understand someone before you give them their solution.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: You need to buy this X, y, z thing, like, if you're even if you're just doing it for strategy to like, okay, well, are you worried about anything moving in together?
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: And what are your?
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: What's your excitement?
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: What's your fear?
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: How's your relationship going?
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Do you think there's any risk?
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: How is her secure?
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: You know getting to pull out other pieces that then can be spoken to of like oh, and here's a little verse that can minister to you that's so interesting.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: I've never thought about sales, but you're right, because I've, like the last five years, had to get more into sales.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: And it's so true.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: When you just come in with buy my makeup, you're like here's the verse I'm lobbing over the wall.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: We'll see if it works.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Oh my, gosh, it's that it is so, yeah, so I guess the takeaway would be that we like staying like you're still a person, like if you have someone in your life, in your family, that either, like you now feel a difference because of your faith or their lack of, or you found faith and they've never, you know, whatever it is like, you can actually still love.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: I think that's the base to me.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: It doesn't actually affect my ability to love you.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Maybe it affects some other things.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Conversations we have, but like this, being perplexed on how do I have relationship with you, doesn't change.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: And I mean we look at probably the most important biblical character, Jesus.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: He was friends with sinners and you don't see him calling out the sinners.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: You see, mainly you see him calling out the pious, religious.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: It's like you guys said, you're in this camp but this is how you're acting, get your stuff straight.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: But then the prostitutes and the drunkards and the murderers, he's like come be with me, like you have a safe space here.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: And that safe space is that what I believe changes.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: People inside or outside of christianity like to be accepted, to be loved and, through that, to have your guard go down and to want something that that person has to offer you, whether that's just to be accepted and to be loved and, through that, to have your guard go down and to want something that that person has to offer you, whether that's just to be known or to be accepted, which is something that the church does offer very well typically.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: But if you're starting off with I'm not accepted and I'm wrong, there's a wall that's built immediately.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: That makes sense.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: I think it's one of my favorite things about coming to visit you is how the kids and I get to go be ourselves, fully ourselves, in your world with such different people, and actually love on all your friends Like it feels mutual.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: It's not like they are not projects, they're your friends, who people I have value for, who've been in your life for seven to ten years, even friends from past seasons, and I'm like, oh, I still can love them and have connection and relationship, even if a lot of our perspectives on life or choices don't align.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: I'm not confused or scared of that.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: That would hinder me.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Like I get to be fully me, even while and all my convictions and beliefs while in relationship or in your world, or, yeah, all the things I was was gonna say that we actually to this point.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I actually went to burning man with john when I was a mom, so it was like 10 years ago, uh, but again, like, how do I stay safe?
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: You really wanted me to experience your world and it sounded really it feels okay.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: You guys burning man yes, there are people are like isn't it just one big drug orgy party?
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: But the interesting part is it's actually super policed.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: So for those of you on my end of the world my answer is no, it's not.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: No, it's not yeah like, yes, there are drugs and there is sex, but they're happening in the camps, private.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: Like I literally didn't see any drugs or alcohol.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Um, I was like there was what do you call it?
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Sheriffs with drug dogs, like, as I was sitting down at different points I got searched or sniffed out whatever for drugs, but never experienced drugs.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: But what was I going to say?
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, so in the John's invitation I was like, do I want to?
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: And then I was like what would I need to feel safe Because I'm not going to do the things, like I'm still be Jenna and all my convictions and beliefs while in that environment?
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: And I brought one of my Christian friends and we had so much fun and we would leave when things, or we'd go to bed or we'd you know, just not like oh, like I think sometimes it's so black or white or all or nothing, but like, oh, what could I feel safe with or do while still being in your world?
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: And then, since you've invited me a few times back, but it hasn't, I'm like no, it doesn't align that would cost my family too much, it's true, but I think the idea of I'm not afraid of it, nor am I trying to peep.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: I don't think our relationship hinges on me saying yes to all your invites either.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, but that's a people pleasing thing to me.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Jenna was like oh, if I'm not gonna be up as late as you, and do you still want me to go?
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: I'm like 100 that was cool, this last actually love you and just want to spend any time we can get together.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: That was really sweet because this last year when he was inviting me to go to Burning man and I was probably not, but weighing my choices, I was like, hey, look bro, I'm even more mom mode than I was when I came.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: So do you want?
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Because he's like I want you there.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: I was like do you want the mom, do you want the Jenna there, who's not going to drink, who's going to go to bed probably at nine, who maybe wakes up at six, who made you know like I was like do you want that jenna there?
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: And that was that was such a sweet.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: It was like I guess that would be an example of having honest conversations, of expectations at a time and boundaries, of like, hey, this is how I'd show up, is this what you're prepared to want?
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: And you were like that was when you said I want, yes, I want the early to bed, I want any time with my sister, and I felt so like we didn't go.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: I didn't go, but I felt so loved even by that conversation and your thought that I was like oh, like there's actually I think the flip side would be there's space for me as I am and you're like my Christian suburban mom still in your world of top hats and floor life coats.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and at first, when I thought you were asking that question, you were like, well, will you change your schedule?
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Or like I was trying to understand if you were okay with me having a different schedule than you.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: If you came, we're both like no, no, be who you are, and we get to cross over.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: However, that makes sense, cause it still crosses over plenty.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we were talking in this the podcast I would like for you to talk about.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: So you're in a community that's like podcast I would like for you to talk about.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: So you're in a community that's like I don't know more new age leaning um, burning man, that kind of culture vibe oh yeah, I would not say new age as far as like.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, what would you say?
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: But I mean, it's hard to discover open world view.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, open world view burners um a lot of entrepreneurs like healing crystals I mean there's crystals around, but you have the new age is the new age is more like religious we believe in the crystals and we're praying through them, and you know he educates me all the time we're not like uh, you know, we are maybe doing ayahuasca and we're trying other.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: You know different practices, um, but it's not a uh.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's not new.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's not new age, I would say but burner, creative artist, open-minded entrepreneurial creators.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I was going to ask you.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: You've seen, though, some of your, so you went through this.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: You know life process where you pulled away from some of the family of origin faith moments, but you have a lot of friends who have similar stories but haven't actually like.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Well, we've still maintained connection.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Can you speak to what you've- A lot of them hold the wounding more and are more running away from their Christian background.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Is that what you mean?
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: And I mean it varies through a lot.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I think we have an anomaly just like I've seen your community here of such beautiful community that holds and heals so much Because just anything uh, apple, working in an Apple workspace and Christianity is control.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Control doesn't mean it's bad, but there is so much like dad is controlling his mind to say I don't even want to ask questions.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: But there's a lot of people that grow up with such extreme control over them and a little bit of a brainwashing mentality that once they leave it they have.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: They're running so far from it and I also had to run from it for a period of time before I wanted to run back into integrate.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: What pieces felt aligned with me, like I said, when I would get so much judgment and all these people messaging me on Facebook telling me I'm doing wrong and trying to bring me back, but in a way that's like I don't feel you.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: For the record, I think the takeaway is Facebook evangelism is not your best tactic, everybody.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: I hope you walk away with nothing else on this episode.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Anyways, continue.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I believe that we have been gifted with, and a lot of your community is gifted with, such better community than most people, and a lot of people just have the control mechanisms or they have like you have to be this certain way.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Um, or don't know what, because when you come to visit everybody, all my friends speaking to.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: When I come to visit, and I love your friends and they love me.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: When you come to visit us, all my friends are not afraid of you, they love you, they ask you questions they're curious about.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah so it's, and it's so it's to have a more holistic side of Christianity that I'm returning to.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: But then the way that people are open to me is with genuine curiosity, kind of like as we've talked generally about with dad.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Compared to you, a lot of people don't have that.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: You know, I have friends that when they leave the church especially friends that were like we're Mormon or Jehovah's Witness, that are a much more cultish, like inner, you're out.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: But then you have the whole gradient within Christianity.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: You have-.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Wait, you're saying let me just clarify.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: You're saying that the ones you have, some friends who when they're out they don't have, like, they've chosen to stay out, or what were you saying?
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Well, like in Mormons and Jehovah's Witness, when you leave, you're like not welcome back, and Mormons and Jehovah.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Witness.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: when you leave, you're like not welcome back and no contact a lot right, yeah, so it's very much you're out and then you have every bit of that.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: A whole gradient of that through Christianity Depends on your upbringing and your community and how much people accept you, how much they want to maintain community and connection with you, how interested they are in your life.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: So I think what I'm hearing is there's some friends because that's the interesting thing when I go back to your world, how many of them have because you have a really unique group of friends who love, want to be better at love, their growth mindset, they're selfless, they're trying to leave a positive footprint on their community, their people.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: They actually want to learn how to support people better.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Like it's beautiful.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: I was going to say that you there's a lot of them who have religious upbringing.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I was, like shocked by this common thread of, like some of the best people in this sect had these foundations and some of them, when I'm hearing you say when they walked away because of the religion they walked away from, can't have connection.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: But then can you speak to the friends that because of their wounding, they opt out?
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: They feel they've almost leaned into the black sheep.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: So maybe it's not as black and white as Mormons, but they're like my parents don't, my family doesn't understand me.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: They blah, blah, blah.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Right and well.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: I guess what I'm speaking to with the example of the Mormons is that that type of energy can be on an individual level.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: It's like if you're not in this path, you're out of this path.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: So there's, there's the two parts how their existing spiritual community accepts them or honors them on their new path and loves them on their new path and makes them feel okay, or scapegoats them, or they scapegoat themselves, but they're like you're wrong and you're bad.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: And if you keep getting you're wrong and you're bad, you run farther away from that.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: Like if you go, if you run somewhere else and they're like we accept you, we love you and if you know you're trying whatever new ways of life, and then you go back to your old way of life and all you feel is shame and judgment.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Of course you don't stay there Like who chooses shame and judgment and sometimes people go to really bad groups to find a really eccentric.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: I don't even know what word you're trying to make up right now.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: I would try.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: This is why we need Aaron Parts of life and they find people that will accept them there.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: But that still is their discovery, their journey, like as you discover who you want to be and how you want to be it and you feel right and good about that, whatever that is.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: However, you make or discover or are told your value systems to feel accepted and loved.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I totally hear what you're saying, but, as you're sharing, I'm like oh, actually, because we go to Bethel Church and it's more on the eccentric end of Christianity too, so we attract high-level people and then people who are attracted to the unconventionalness, so more like weird or odd level too, which maybe don't fully track with the fullness of our culture, but they see the outside of mainstream and are attracted to that.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: But then when you listen to some people who feel misunderstood by their family and there is that real pain, but then almost what I hear sometimes in our environment is that they take that on as an identity and almost become victims to it.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: So maybe repair or connection could be possible from the initial disrupt like you know time and process and but they're uninterested in repairing because of the initial disrupt like you know time and process and but they're uninterested in repairing because of the initial wounding or offense.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: It's like they've decided that is true and their family won't like.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: So not almost trying again or trying to reconnect because, like you outed me, therefore, I'm not interested in connection.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Versus like you actually were so open where you tried again, even with dad and different things, despite the like messaging you got, you were interested.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: You didn't keep a victim to the reaction you got.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: You actually wanted connection more than you were interested in kind of like feeding the wound.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: And even for people that I had at one point blocked on Facebook from old church members that were sending me lots of things.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: To be fair, I've blocked some of them too.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: I couldn't handle all the things they posted on my wall, just from their own beliefs, not from correcting me.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: But then after going back and going back and visiting church or seeing them in community, and how lovely of time we have together and how lovely of conversation and connection, and like I don't know what changed for them or me, or just given at the time or they accepted where I was or they don't see my things.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: They don't have somewhere to throw stuff at, but I want to maintain relationship.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: And we don't ever want to cut off anybody if they're generative for us.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: We do want to cut off people that are not generative for us, whether they're in the church or out of the church.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: If some people from Bethel were in some other denomination, they'd get lots of shame and they get like you can't be like this.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: I think my Bethel would be like you can't be Baptist and be here.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: I was like, no, we're fine with the Baptist.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: I get what you're saying, but there's all sorts of things.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: So you go to where you're accepted and to where you have.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: So how do we accept ourselves as we transition?
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: And for me it's about how do I integrate so much of the beauty of that and not throw it out with the bathwater?
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: And that's, I think, going back to your point of people then just running away when I'm like so many things ministered to you in that.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: So now you don't have any of that held onto Like what can still be part of your life.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: That's good, okay.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: So to recap some of the connection, the things that we did is that we stayed, didn't make you a mission or a project.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: You were still my brother and we chose relationship and love like a.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: There was a grief period, but like I could actually still be connected to you and want to be connected and have love pointed towards you, but not for the because sometimes I think like we can say I love you, but it really is still to a goal to get you arrived somewhere, versus like this is a freely because I love you for like I love John Jenkins, not conditional, you know, does that make sense?
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: And then the other thing is you said staying curious, like I think that goes to the point of like that's you foster relationship even when they're different, like not to be afraid of it.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: It does, again, does not mean that there haven't been like, that we haven't disagreed or talked about varying points or you're confused, that I still believe what I believe.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: So I think that's the hard part some people think that that almost like by having these conversations or being around each other, it's like what's the word when it's like agreement, by just not protesting, there's some kind of term for that agree to disagree.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: No, it's more like uh lying by emotion, but for like not saying something.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: Anyways, continue.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: What were you gonna say?
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: and and it's you know also, it's both ways.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: It's like you loving me, but also, yeah, when you're not trying to change me, I'm like not trying to change you.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: But I do believe that you want to understand me and you want to actually understand my process because you love me, not because you're also trying to use it to then change me, which could be people's tactic.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: But like I had a radical, took a radical shift in my life to be where I am now that it feels good for me and you feel good where you are.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so for both of us to have that two-way street, um that's good.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: I'm not trying to evangelize you to let go of the ideology.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to say that I'm doing all of this no, no, you weren't.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: But it like, as you're hosting an interview with me about like my journey out of it it's actually like I'm definitely never trying to change dad, right now.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: Nor are you saying how bad we are.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: You know how like I'm not listing how bad you are You're not coming in and be like it's terrible that you're teaching your kids this or this Bible story or this Like.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: So I think there's this like boundary of.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: It's not that we don't talk about it, but we know where each other stays, so we don't pick fights and I do respect, like when I go culture, I respect your culture.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: When you come to mine, too, there's like boundaries and thoughtfulness in relationship.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: It's almost like going to someone's house and you wouldn't leave your dirty shoes and, you know, trash everywhere.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: There's like an awareness and thoughtfulness when you come into their environment, and I think both of us do that when we go into each other's environment.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: So I hope that whoever's listening that this gives you hope that you can maintain connection and relationship, either despite of, or in spite of, or wherever you're at, with that family member or close person who has taken a turn.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: I think for me it's always possible to love, and loving unconditionally is not the same thing as I don't know agreement or feeling like, yes, I am wrong, you're right.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: It's actually like you're not a mission I'm going to.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: I'm not afraid of what you believe, nor do I have to compromise what I believe to be around you.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: We can be respectful with our differences because you're still my brother and I still love you and vice versa.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: So I appreciate your willingness to how often you come into suburban mom life and he always he goes to church with us and it's funny there's sometimes when we're together.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: I'm laughing, thinking about my dad and he like I remember this one time, you guys I think it might have been last year together and dad was like I'm gonna get him to watch the chosen.
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: It was his most latest tactic of how he thought he could convert you.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: But my brother is no dummy, john.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: They really portrayed jesus so good and it's funny because I've loved, I actually have really enjoyed the chosen.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: But if I ever were to get you to listen to it, it would not be with a thinly veiled hope that I'm evangelizing you.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: You know like maybe this will be the tipping point that change I think I did hear the nativity story 45 times this last week, so maybe you're trying to convert me.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: No, I guess that would be the point is I don't curb.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Actually, I'm glad you brought that up.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: I don't curtail my habits for being afraid that you're going to think that I have to trust, or if you have that like that.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: You know my heart isn't, but this is what our family's doing.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: And you knew that so that feels really good.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: It goes back to trust.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: That's good.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having a second conversation.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you.