Latest / The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast / Should Fraternities be banned? A Cornell Alum speaks out.

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Should Fraternities be banned? A Cornell Alum speaks out. · The Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The following episode will be discussing themes of sexual assault.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: If you or anyone you know is a victim of
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: sexual assault or abuse, call RAINN's Sexual Assault Hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: That's 1-800-656-4673.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Hi, you.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: Guys. Welcome back to another episode of Dirty Rush. I
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: am Jen Fessler, your host, and I am joined by
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: my friend, Alisa Donovan.
• 0:25
  Speaker 4: Hi, Jen.
• 0:25
  Speaker 5: Hi, Jen. Hi, my friend.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: And we are continuing our conversation today about the Cornell
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: 7 case. And we have a Cornell alumni on today
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  Speaker 3: to talk more about the case.
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  Speaker 2: I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
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  Speaker 6: Chloe Akers is just an incredibly impressive human being. She
• 0:42
  Speaker 6: is obviously well-educated. She was a defense attorney for many,
• 0:46
  Speaker 6: many years. She works in politics. She's very articulate. And
• 0:51
  Speaker 6: I feel like she's really going to bring a lot
• 0:54
  Speaker 6: of nuance and clarity to what's going on right now.
• 1:00
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I can only imagine what it's like right
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: now being a Cornell alumni, right? So I have a
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: bunch of friends that went to Cornell and I know
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: a bunch of kids that not only went, but are
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: there now. It's a difficult time to be affiliated or,
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: you know, let's see what Chloe has to say. And
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: I am as well, just so excited to talk to her. Hi, Chloe.
• 1:22
  Speaker 5: Hi, Chloe.
• 1:23
  Speaker 7: Hi, Chloe.
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: How are you all? Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:27
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: We're both very excited that you're here.
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  Speaker 4: We are.
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  Speaker 5: We really are. So we're going to jump in, if
• 1:34
  Speaker 5: that's okay with you.
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: We know that you are a Cornell alumni yourself. And
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: it's funny because I don't know if either of you
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: guys follow Bill Maher, but he just did a whole
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: bit about how he was a Cornell alumni and how, well,
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: he hated Cornell.
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  Speaker 5: He thought it sucked.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: But how he's sort of almost glad that Cornell is finally,
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: as he put it, eating like, what did he say,
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: like a pie or something? How do you feel about
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: Cornell at this point and how this has all developed?
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: Well, I had, I guess, a different experience than Bill
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: Maher at Cornell. I absolutely, I loved Cornell. I was
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: in a sorority.
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  Speaker 5: I had.
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  Speaker 7: One of the best experiences in my sorority when I
• 2:17
  Speaker 7: was there.
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  Speaker 4: I got a tremendous education, but I will say, In.
• 2:23
  Speaker 7: Thinking about my experience at Cornell, especially in the context
• 2:27
  Speaker 7: of what has just emerged, there was a real gender
• 2:31
  Speaker 7: divide at Cornell. It occurred to me that I left
• 2:33
  Speaker 7: college with about 10 incredible female friends, no male friends.
• 2:38
  Speaker 7: We didn't really hang out with guys. And I'm a
• 2:41
  Speaker 7: former criminal defense lawyer. I work in politics now.
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  Speaker 4: I have a lot of male friends in adult life.
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  Speaker 7: And so it was sort of jarring to And I
• 2:49
  Speaker 7: started to think back to that time and I was like,
• 2:51
  Speaker 7: we were really separated from the guys at school.
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: And the fraternity culture at Cornell.
• 3:00
  Speaker 7: In really thinking about it, like 20 years after graduation
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  Speaker 7: and in reading what was contained in Jane Doe's civil,
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  Speaker 7: you know, lawsuit. It was a really dangerous situation. The
• 3:14
  Speaker 7: entire framework at Cornell was dangerous. And it's remarkable to
• 3:18
  Speaker 7: me that the administration has not been forced to step
• 3:21
  Speaker 7: in and set some ground rules until this point. I mean,
• 3:25
  Speaker 7: there was no threat of consequence at Cornell for anything
• 3:32
  Speaker 7: or anyone.
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: And I hadn't really thought.
• 3:35
  Speaker 7: About it until the last few weeks as I was
• 3:37
  Speaker 7: re-examining my own experience. And there were great things about it.
• 3:41
  Speaker 7: But there were things about it that, you know, it
• 3:43
  Speaker 7: was really dangerous.
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  Speaker 5: How long ago? When did you graduate?
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  Speaker 4: I graduated in 2005.
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  Speaker 7: So I was at Cornell from 2001 to 2005. There
• 3:53
  Speaker 7: were no Ubers. There were no cell phones. Obviously a very, like,
• 3:58
  Speaker 7: different time. But one of the things, you know, people
• 4:00
  Speaker 7: have asked me a lot about my experience and being
• 4:03
  Speaker 7: a lawyer and talking about this issue. And the biggest
• 4:06
  Speaker 7: thing that stands out to me is I grew up
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  Speaker 7: in the South, right? So I'm from the SEC culture.
• 4:12
  Speaker 7: I remember going to UT, University of Tennessee campus and
• 4:14
  Speaker 7: seeing the fraternity row and the fraternity houses. What people
• 4:18
  Speaker 7: I think don't really understand unless you've been on Cornell's
• 4:20
  Speaker 7: campus is the fraternity houses at Cornell are not houses.
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  Speaker 4: They're mansions.
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  Speaker 7: They are labyrinths of rooms across multiple stories. And unlike
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  Speaker 7: a Southern university where you have like a frat row
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  Speaker 7: that's right in the middle of campus, the frat houses
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  Speaker 7: at Cornell are like dotted all around one of the biggest,
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  Speaker 7: most remote campuses in the country.
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  Speaker 4: And it's very remote and it's very secluded.
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  Speaker 7: And I just remember thinking about how it felt dark
• 4:51
  Speaker 7: all the time when you were around in some of
• 4:54
  Speaker 7: those places. And so I've reflected on that as well,
• 4:57
  Speaker 7: just the landscape and the remoteness of the university and
• 5:01
  Speaker 7: then the fraternity houses within the university.
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  Speaker 4: And how when you, Combine that with drugs and alcohol
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  Speaker 4: and a feeling of.
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  Speaker 7: Entitlement that sometimes pervades institutions like Cornell, it is.
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  Speaker 4: A recipe for disaster.
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  Speaker 7: I got a great education, and I had a really
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  Speaker 7: tremendous experience and left with.
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  Speaker 4: So many wonderful female friends.
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  Speaker 7: But it is a complex, complicated place, and it needs
• 5:28
  Speaker 7: to take a hard look in the mirror.
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  Speaker 5: Right.
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  Speaker 6: So many things that you're saying, I I have a
• 5:35
  Speaker 6: million questions and things to say, and not the least
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  Speaker 6: of which is, in your own words, saying you now
• 5:43
  Speaker 6: have reflected on your experience and have kind of downloaded
• 5:48
  Speaker 6: a bit more of what that was. I think this
• 5:50
  Speaker 6: is so important that we talk about this from... female's
• 5:55
  Speaker 6: perspectives there is so much that we do just to
• 5:58
  Speaker 6: take care of ourselves on a daily basis in any
• 6:02
  Speaker 6: circumstance and in any environment and part of that is
• 6:07
  Speaker 6: monitoring how we how we dress how we what we
• 6:11
  Speaker 6: say all those sorts of things that has been talked
• 6:13
  Speaker 6: about forever but this whole idea of the things that
• 6:17
  Speaker 6: we accept as normal because they have been normalized And
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  Speaker 6: so it isn't until retrospect or when somebody opens the
• 6:28
  Speaker 6: door a little and says, hey, there's something wrong with this.
• 6:31
  Speaker 6: And then you say, oh, gosh, really? There was a
• 6:35
  Speaker 6: lot wrong with that. And it's like this breath of
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  Speaker 6: relief or release. And it's such a big topic that is,
• 6:48
  Speaker 6: in my opinion, entirely related to misogyny and how disproportionately
• 6:53
  Speaker 6: sexual violence happens to women. And I know this podcast
• 6:57
  Speaker 6: is about fraternities and sorority and more of the, Jen
• 7:01
  Speaker 6: has said, you know, more of the kind of jovial
• 7:04
  Speaker 6: and community-driven parts of it. But I think it's impossible
• 7:08
  Speaker 6: to talk about this and not discuss whether or not
• 7:11
  Speaker 6: fraternity culture is rape culture. And these ways that men
• 7:16
  Speaker 6: are taught about their masculinity and the bro code and
• 7:20
  Speaker 6: how you don't do anything, you protect them at any cost.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 7: It's like, yeah, I think it's, it's fascinating to think
• 7:31
  Speaker 7: about what happens when young men get together. And then
• 7:36
  Speaker 7: sometimes there's really great, amazing, incredible things that come out
• 7:40
  Speaker 7: of that.
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  Speaker 4: Sometimes there's really dark, violent things that come out of that.
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  Speaker 7: And, you know, to your point about taking a moment
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  Speaker 7: and thinking through and processing something, I think it's so
• 7:52
  Speaker 7: fascinating that that's really what happened here with Jane Doe,
• 7:56
  Speaker 7: that after this incident and what I would characterize, and
• 8:01
  Speaker 7: I am a former criminal defense lawyer, which this often
• 8:03
  Speaker 7: blows people's minds.
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  Speaker 4: I'm like, I was a criminal lawyer for 15 years.
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: I defended clients.
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  Speaker 7: I've never prosecuted cases, but I believe based on the
• 8:11
  Speaker 7: evidence and well, what's in the public sphere that she
• 8:14
  Speaker 7: was assaulted. But after her assault, she went back. to
• 8:19
  Speaker 7: her sorority house and had conversations with her friends. And
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  Speaker 7: it was through that processing and through that downloading and
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  Speaker 7: reflecting that she had that moment that I've had 20
• 8:29
  Speaker 7: years later in a much different context of saying, wait,
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  Speaker 7: I don't know if what happened to me was right.
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  Speaker 7: I don't think I perceived it how it actually was.
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  Speaker 7: And so I think it's so interesting that I think
• 8:43
  Speaker 7: one of the reasons that women across the country have just.
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: Rallied behind Jane Doe.
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  Speaker 7: And this story has like kind of taken us by
• 8:53
  Speaker 7: storm and is so emotional is for that reason that
• 8:56
  Speaker 7: all of us at some point in our lives have
• 9:00
  Speaker 7: had these moments where we look back and we go,
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  Speaker 7: that wasn't okay.
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  Speaker 5: That is so true.
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  Speaker 3: That took a lot of therapy for me personally to
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  Speaker 3: get to a point. I don't get specific, but like
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  Speaker 3: there's things that have happened, like things that have happened
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: to all of us, years of therapy and, And all
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  Speaker 3: of a sudden I was like, through this wonderful therapist
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  Speaker 3: I have, oh wait, her sort of reading it wasn't okay.
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  Speaker 3: And accepting it, moving on with my life, however it
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  Speaker 3: affected me, not facing it. And then years later, all
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: of a sudden like, holy shit, that happened.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, that wasn't good.
• 9:38
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and people have asked me about how, My outrage
• 9:45
  Speaker 7: for the prosecutor in particular in Ithaca in this case
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  Speaker 7: and his total lack of diligence around an investigation or
• 9:52
  Speaker 7: taking this seriously.
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  Speaker 4: And, you know, as a person.
• 9:55
  Speaker 7: Who's defended these cases, the complexity around victims. making statements
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  Speaker 7: and describing what happened to them and understanding that their
• 10:05
  Speaker 7: statements and their version and their recollection changes. And the
• 10:08
  Speaker 7: fact that it changes does not mean that a crime
• 10:11
  Speaker 7: wasn't committed. It's just a whole part of trauma-informed responses.
• 10:17
  Speaker 7: And really great prosecutors. And I've been up against some
• 10:21
  Speaker 7: really great prosecutors and prosecutors who specialize in sex crimes
• 10:24
  Speaker 7: tend to be some of the most passionate, committed prosecutors
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  Speaker 7: I've ever worked with. I've seen a skilled prosecutor take
• 10:31
  Speaker 7: a case to a jury where a victim has given
• 10:34
  Speaker 7: two or three or four slightly different versions of events.
• 10:38
  Speaker 7: And I've been the one on the defense side challenging
• 10:41
  Speaker 7: those differences. And a skilled prosecutor is can take my
• 10:45
  Speaker 7: argument and shove it into the ground by presenting to
• 10:47
  Speaker 7: the jury the realities of trauma and recollection and understanding
• 10:51
  Speaker 7: around really, really horrible things that happened to us. And
• 10:54
  Speaker 7: so it made me so angry when I read the
• 10:59
  Speaker 7: district attorney in Ithaca, his statement around why he didn't
• 11:03
  Speaker 7: even do any additional investigation and just sort of wrote
• 11:05
  Speaker 7: this whole thing off after reading something. And I just thought,
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  Speaker 7: You don't even have to be that trauma-informed or nuanced
• 11:13
  Speaker 7: to understand what we're talking about.
• 11:15
  Speaker 5: Life.
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: Right. But I do think women in particular, there's.
• 11:19
  Speaker 7: Just so many times when we look back on something,
• 11:21
  Speaker 7: whether it's two weeks or 20 years, and say- So true.
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  Speaker 4: That wasn't right.
• 11:25
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 11:26
  Speaker 6: It's like the opposite of what I'm talking about with this,
• 11:32
  Speaker 6: the bro code and the fraternity sort of culture, that
• 11:38
  Speaker 6: systemic support- When women don't have that from the entire culture,
• 11:43
  Speaker 6: it's like we respond the other way. Then we have
• 11:48
  Speaker 6: the burden of, which we do anyway, still have the
• 11:51
  Speaker 6: burden of proof is on us to prove over and
• 11:53
  Speaker 6: over again just how horrific an experience was. And I
• 11:57
  Speaker 6: think it's something that people don't understand about trauma and abuse.
• 12:04
  Speaker 6: No one wants to be, Jane Doe does not want
• 12:06
  Speaker 6: to be talking about this. I would venture to say.
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  Speaker 6: I do not know her, but I can't imagine that
• 12:14
  Speaker 6: this is something that this person is enjoying going through.
• 12:19
  Speaker 6: So until we have a greater support for women, I
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: don't know how this changes. What do you think that
• 12:31
  Speaker 6: Cornell University can do to help prevent incidents like this?
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: Oh, I've got a list.
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  Speaker 5: Oh, great.
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  Speaker 7: I mean, look, I would say first and foremost, there
• 12:42
  Speaker 7: is I think one of the strongest ways to potentially
• 12:46
  Speaker 7: begin to prevent some of this activity is to is
• 12:49
  Speaker 7: for Cornell University.
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  Speaker 4: To hire independent, trained.
• 12:54
  Speaker 7: Sexual assault investigators. So every police department in every reasonable
• 13:00
  Speaker 7: size city or town will have at least one or
• 13:02
  Speaker 7: two detectives who specialize in investigating sex crimes.
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: SVU, we just watched.
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: Yes, it's a real thing. And there's a difference too
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: between a patrol cop and a detective.
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  Speaker 7: Detectives are trained police officers who are known to be
• 13:20
  Speaker 7: investigating cases. I think that if Cornell were to hire
• 13:25
  Speaker 7: a couple of very serious, very well-trained investigators and let
• 13:29
  Speaker 7: the entire student body know that they've been hired, And
• 13:32
  Speaker 7: start taking it seriously. And the threat of consequence, like
• 13:36
  Speaker 7: this is something that it gets a little philosophical, but
• 13:39
  Speaker 7: I'm like, what keeps our society running? Like what keeps
• 13:42
  Speaker 7: us in the lanes of morality in large part is
• 13:46
  Speaker 7: a threat of consequence, right? Like I, you know, like
• 13:49
  Speaker 7: we know that if you come, if you drive drunk.
• 13:51
  Speaker 7: that the penalties are stiff, and they're severe, and they're mandatory.
• 13:55
  Speaker 7: And so it stops people from driving drunk. Now, of course,
• 13:58
  Speaker 7: I'm not robbing banks just because there's a law against it.
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  Speaker 4: It's morally and ethically wrong.
• 14:04
  Speaker 7: But the law and the swift arm of justice coming
• 14:09
  Speaker 7: to bear when you break a rule is an incredibly
• 14:13
  Speaker 7: powerful motivator to keep people in line. And so to me,
• 14:18
  Speaker 7: if Cornell were to hire the right experienced officers to
• 14:23
  Speaker 7: join its police force, make it very clear that that
• 14:26
  Speaker 7: has happened. Make it very clear that this will be
• 14:30
  Speaker 7: seriously taken with swift and fair justice and start to
• 14:35
  Speaker 7: enforce some consequences. I think like that is one way
• 14:40
  Speaker 7: that you can start to address this. I think there's
• 14:43
  Speaker 7: a lot of education around consent. I think that's good.
• 14:47
  Speaker 7: I don't think that's ever going to be a bad thing.
• 14:49
  Speaker 7: But I'm sort of from the, I'm from the South.
• 14:52
  Speaker 7: I'm from the place where like, you do or you
• 14:55
  Speaker 7: don't do stuff a lot out of fear. And there
• 14:58
  Speaker 7: is no fear up there at Cornell. Like I remember
• 15:00
  Speaker 7: being at those parties and it never even occurred to me, y'all,
• 15:04
  Speaker 7: that like the cops would come. I think strengthening the
• 15:18
  Speaker 7: law enforcement elements around sexual violence and on college campuses
• 15:24
  Speaker 7: and explaining this isn't just a title nine hearing.
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 15:28
  Speaker 7: If you are found to have assaulted someone, you're getting arrested, handcuffs,
• 15:34
  Speaker 7: you're going to jail. You have to make a bond.
• 15:36
  Speaker 7: You have to hire a lawyer. Like there's, I think
• 15:40
  Speaker 7: that is, is really strong. And, and, and title nine.
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:43
  Speaker 7: It's, it changes with each administration. So it can get
• 15:46
  Speaker 7: a little weaker. It can get a little stronger. Um,
• 15:49
  Speaker 7: And Biden, I think, tried to change some of the
• 15:53
  Speaker 7: original Trump administration's rules back to have a little more
• 15:57
  Speaker 7: strength and was blocked from doing so.
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: So it's really been politicized in a way that is disappointing.
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Because you go on to these campuses and there is,
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: you know, every single one. And again, I've toured I
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: probably toured 20 college campuses and they all purport to
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: be very aware of. of what is necessary to keep
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: the students safe and to keep the women students safe.
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: And yet here we are.
• 16:21
  Speaker 6: This cements, it solidifies exactly what I'm saying, that this
• 16:26
  Speaker 6: is about a culture of misogyny that is so deeply
• 16:29
  Speaker 6: embedded in so many institutions and in our own culture
• 16:34
  Speaker 6: as in this country, that we're already doing things in
• 16:39
  Speaker 6: order to make telling my daughter, don't go down the
• 16:43
  Speaker 6: street at night, have a friend, do it.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: All of these things, we've normalized it.
• 16:48
  Speaker 6: To such a degree that there has to be a
• 16:52
  Speaker 6: dismantling of all of it. And I think to your point, Chloe,
• 16:56
  Speaker 6: that the actionable items are what are helpful. What you
• 17:00
  Speaker 6: said is so concrete, that is something they can do,
• 17:04
  Speaker 6: that we can physically see and And it will have
• 17:08
  Speaker 6: an emotional impact on people as well, but it's a
• 17:12
  Speaker 6: literal shift that that's what has to happen.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:16
  Speaker 7: I think actionable items like actionable, like things that you
• 17:19
  Speaker 7: can do hiring these types of investigators, I think bringing
• 17:24
  Speaker 7: in and building out an infrastructure for women who are
• 17:28
  Speaker 7: assaulted to go to and have some level of legal
• 17:31
  Speaker 7: guidance on campus as a resource. Like, What a radical idea.
• 17:37
  Speaker 7: I'm like, I reached out to my sorority at Cornell
• 17:40
  Speaker 7: and said, if you girls would like me to come
• 17:42
  Speaker 7: to Ithaca, nobody. No bullshit, no press, none of that crap.
• 17:47
  Speaker 7: And sit in the living room of our sorority and
• 17:50
  Speaker 7: walk you through what the law says and what your
• 17:53
  Speaker 7: rights are and where you need to go next.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: Like, consider me your resource. But I'm like, why isn't
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: that already happening?
• 18:00
  Speaker 7: Like, why doesn't each sorority on Cornell's campus have access
• 18:03
  Speaker 7: to an independent female legal advisor?
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: She doesn't have to live in Ithaca.
• 18:07
  Speaker 7: She can live anywhere in the country and be available
• 18:09
  Speaker 7: on zoom to answer their questions and give them some
• 18:12
  Speaker 7: support in navigating these processes. Like there's things like that
• 18:16
  Speaker 7: that can happen every day. You know, also people don't,
• 18:20
  Speaker 7: I don't know. Jennifer was like this at Texas at Cornell,
• 18:23
  Speaker 7: only the fraternities could have parties.
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: Well, there were no parties at the sorority house and
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: you're kidding. No, no, no, no, absolutely not.
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Um, Boys were not allowed in my sorority house
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: back in the day. So they were snuck in, but
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: that was a no-no. And yeah, there was no, but
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: there was no ruling over it at the frat house. Yeah.
• 18:45
  Speaker 7: And so I think that's like the, you know, when
• 18:47
  Speaker 7: you think about the misogyny and the institutional misogyny and patriarchy,
• 18:52
  Speaker 7: I'm like that set up alone.
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: Girls live in a sorority house.
• 18:56
  Speaker 7: We had a woman who lived in our sorority house
• 18:59
  Speaker 7: who was like our house mom and she was awesome.
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: And she was actually pretty serious.
• 19:03
  Speaker 7: I got in big trouble for smoking cigarettes multiple times
• 19:07
  Speaker 7: on the back porch, but we were not allowed to
• 19:09
  Speaker 7: have parties. We had an adult living on the property.
• 19:13
  Speaker 7: And so that meant that all the parties were at
• 19:15
  Speaker 7: the fraternity houses, which meant that there was this wild
• 19:19
  Speaker 7: imbalance of social currency and power from the jump, right?
• 19:25
  Speaker 7: And again, these houses were such a maze of rooms
• 19:29
  Speaker 7: and they were dark and You know, the guys would
• 19:31
  Speaker 7: know which rooms were where and where do you put
• 19:34
  Speaker 7: your coat?
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: And it sounds like a small thing.
• 19:38
  Speaker 7: But I think when you think about that disorientation and
• 19:41
  Speaker 7: not having agency or ownership, like I didn't have parties
• 19:44
  Speaker 7: at my house.
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: I had to go to theirs. I was in their territory.
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: And that is to me just.
• 19:50
  Speaker 7: Baked in institutional misogyny in a way that just fuels
• 19:54
  Speaker 7: all of this.
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: Never even thought about it. Didn't even give it a
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: second thought.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: Like, if you had asked me back then why we
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: weren't having the parties, it would be because we didn't
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: want our house to get wrecked.
• 20:06
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: Like, we didn't want our house to get messy.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, that would have been the first thing that
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: occurred to me as opposed to, yeah, wait a second.
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: Why is it always on their turf?
• 20:15
  Speaker 6: Chloe, just so you know, I went to Eugene Lang
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: College at the New School University in the West Village
• 20:21
  Speaker 6: of New York City. My experience is diametrically opposed to that.
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: Slightly different.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: Well, I also, at least I think like, you know,
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: a lot of times, and I don't know how at
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: this point right now, this point in time, I'm questioning
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: a lot of things, right? And a lot of beliefs
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: that I have. specifically around, and I have this podcast
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: on a Greek life, you know, on sororities and fraternities and,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: and a lot of it about how fabulous it is. Lisa,
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: you said that you think that frat culture is, I
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: don't know if it's how you said frat culture is
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: rape culture.
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: What did you say?
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 20:54
  Speaker 6: That's what I I'm asking the question because there are
• 20:58
  Speaker 6: these kind of, you know, incestuous ways of thinking.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: About their own masculinity.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: And that, that this, where you have to protect your
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: brothers at any expense. And that means that, you know,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: at any cost.
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: You're not alone in thinking that.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: And I think that people, many people are now of
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: the mindset that Greek life should be abolished. I mean, that's,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: I think that's at Cornell right now, it's, you're not
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: allowed to have parties until what spring of 2027 or something.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no parties.
• 21:27
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Again, I have a Greek sorority podcast, and maybe that
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: is the right thing.
• 21:32
  Speaker 6: I mean, listen, my husband went to Colgate. He has
• 21:36
  Speaker 6: some of the dearest, closest friends from his time there,
• 21:38
  Speaker 6: men and women. I love these men and women. They've
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: become close friends of mine. And, you know, they would
• 21:45
  Speaker 6: say wonderful things about it, obviously.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:48
  Speaker 6: However, there are also some not very good stories that
• 21:52
  Speaker 6: I remember him telling me when we first met. And
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: I was like, I'm sorry, what did you say?
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: What happened? And he said, yeah, not in his, but
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: in another.
• 22:02
  Speaker 6: So these sort of like, it's a kind of, it's understood,
• 22:06
  Speaker 6: I think, that these things happen to some degree or another.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: And again, are normalized.
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: Like how, what do you, for you, Chloe, how common
• 22:15
  Speaker 6: do you think these things are?
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: I think they're, I think it's rampant.
• 22:21
  Speaker 7: I think anytime you get drugs, alcohol, partying, and people
• 22:25
  Speaker 7: who are 18 to 22 in a room, I think
• 22:29
  Speaker 7: you can find yourself in some dicey situations. I mean,
• 22:34
  Speaker 7: even just thinking about it now, it's kind of like
• 22:36
  Speaker 7: I had such a great experience in my sorority. I
• 22:40
  Speaker 7: was treated so warmly. The older girls in my sorority
• 22:43
  Speaker 7: were very maternal and caring. I never felt judged or
• 22:48
  Speaker 7: I didn't have any of those bad experiences and it,
• 22:50
  Speaker 7: and it felt so like a cocoon of safety in
• 22:53
  Speaker 7: that environment. But then I start to think about it
• 22:56
  Speaker 7: and I'm like, well, maybe it felt like a cocoon
• 22:58
  Speaker 7: of safety because it had to be because the culture
• 23:01
  Speaker 7: that we were in at Cornell created a world that
• 23:05
  Speaker 7: necessitated it. And so it's, it, it, I go back
• 23:08
  Speaker 7: and forth myself and, you know, I have identical twin
• 23:11
  Speaker 7: nephews who are 10 and I've had so many conversations
• 23:14
  Speaker 7: with my sister about as they get older, they go
• 23:17
  Speaker 7: into middle school, they go to high school, would she
• 23:20
  Speaker 7: want them to be in a fraternity in college? And
• 23:23
  Speaker 7: the good things about that and the friendships that come
• 23:27
  Speaker 7: out of that, but the dangers, and you have to wonder,
• 23:31
  Speaker 7: is it really worth it?
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: That's why I was referencing Bill Maher, who has nothing
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: really to do with our conversation, except that what he
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: said on his show the other night really resonated with me,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: that you put and specifically was talking about about guys.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: He was, he said something different about sororities, but you
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: put a bunch of men together who look alike, sound alike,
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: and you don't have any women in that group and
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: bad things happen.
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: Something to that effect.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: He's like, listen, bad things happen when you put a
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: lot of women together, whatever it was, but he was
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: saying nothing.
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: He was really sort of anti-Greek life. Nothing good comes
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: out of this Greek system. I don't know.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Again, I, I, That has not been true for me
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: in terms of my life. I, like you, Chloe, have
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: made lifelong friends. I did so much growing and learning
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: and philanthropy and all of the good stuff that comes
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: along with it.
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: But it is a time now after all of this.
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: that I am questioning it.
• 24:26
  Speaker 6: I think it's an opportunity to do a, you know,
• 24:30
  Speaker 6: let's do a refresh on the whole idea.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Like that's it.
• 24:34
  Speaker 6: Because the idea of community is super important. I mean,
• 24:38
  Speaker 6: and that, and especially I think at that age, and
• 24:41
  Speaker 6: if there are just some parameters or things, you know,
• 24:47
  Speaker 6: I don't know, like the baby doesn't have to go
• 24:48
  Speaker 6: out with the bathwater perhaps, you know, and this is
• 24:51
  Speaker 6: coming from a person who clearly doesn't, has no attachment
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: to it whatsoever.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: I think that's really valid.
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: And I think Cornell, one of the good things about
• 24:59
  Speaker 7: Cornell is it's incredibly challenging academically, and it does promote
• 25:03
  Speaker 7: a level of free thought and thinking.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: So it would be.
• 25:06
  Speaker 7: Kind of a perfect place to reimagine community in a
• 25:11
  Speaker 7: post-2026 world.
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: Because not only.
• 25:15
  Speaker 7: Have we all lived through the Jane Doe experience of
• 25:19
  Speaker 7: the last few weeks, But our society and the way
• 25:23
  Speaker 7: in which women are treated and the way in which
• 25:26
  Speaker 7: women are, I mean, I just, I work in politics.
• 25:29
  Speaker 7: So I've been watching and reading all about the recent
• 25:32
  Speaker 7: ad that just ran in Ohio against a woman running there.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: And I think that.
• 25:38
  Speaker 7: Women collectively are entering a moment in time where we should,
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: and I think will, begin to re-examine the institutions that
• 25:49
  Speaker 7: serve us the institutions that no longer serve us, how
• 25:53
  Speaker 7: we want to be in community, and how we want
• 25:56
  Speaker 7: to associate with men in their community. And I think
• 25:58
  Speaker 7: it's a valuable conversation. And I think Cornell University has
• 26:03
  Speaker 7: some of the smartest young minds in the country. And
• 26:05
  Speaker 7: I would love for that university to promote this idea
• 26:10
  Speaker 7: of a re-examining of the social fabric of a university
• 26:14
  Speaker 7: in a post-2026.
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: Political world.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: I think it's going to have to, I think if
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: they didn't want to before, they're going to have to.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: So yeah, they're going to have to now.
• 26:24
  Speaker 5: Right. Exactly.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: And rightly so. And yeah, and they're not, listen, and
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: we know they're not alone. This doesn't just happen at Cornell.
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: That is a hundred percent true. Yeah.
• 26:34
  Speaker 7: But I will, I do have to say, I went
• 26:36
  Speaker 7: to the university of Tennessee for law school and I
• 26:38
  Speaker 7: handled a lot of title nine hearings as an attorney
• 26:42
  Speaker 7: at the university of Tennessee. And I will say that
• 26:45
  Speaker 7: the title nine process at Tennessee is, was tough and
• 26:50
  Speaker 7: it was fair and they didn't care. I represented clients
• 26:55
  Speaker 7: who were athletes, big time athletes at the University of Tennessee.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: Didn't matter if you were on the football team.
• 27:00
  Speaker 7: It didn't matter if you were some kid from middle
• 27:03
  Speaker 7: of nowhere, West Tennessee, Middle Tennessee, they were very fair,
• 27:07
  Speaker 7: but they were very swift.
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: And so I saw the Title IX process.
• 27:11
  Speaker 7: At UT being adjudicated in a way that was taken
• 27:14
  Speaker 7: quite seriously. But I do agree with you, Jennifer, that
• 27:18
  Speaker 7: this is happening all over across the country. And, you know,
• 27:23
  Speaker 7: Cornell taught me to be a free thinker and it
• 27:25
  Speaker 7: taught me to challenge authority and it taught me to
• 27:27
  Speaker 7: push back when something wasn't right.
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: They may regret that decision now.
• 27:32
  Speaker 7: But I think it's high time that that we all
• 27:35
  Speaker 7: as women start to really question what what no longer
• 27:38
  Speaker 7: serves us institutionally. And like guys being the only ones
• 27:43
  Speaker 7: to have a frat party that doesn't serve me institutionally.
• 27:57
  Speaker 6: So do you think that the young men were taught
• 28:00
  Speaker 6: to be free thinkers as well? Or was that another
• 28:04
  Speaker 6: piece of women having to kind.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Of find their own way to survive?
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's a really great question.
• 28:16
  Speaker 7: The professors at Cornell and the like educational atmosphere there,
• 28:19
  Speaker 7: it's really challenging and probing and they will push you.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: And I was an English major. So every time you
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: had an opinion, why, why, why? And, you know, I
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: think it was across the board.
• 28:30
  Speaker 7: The professors were pushing us and challenging us to think
• 28:34
  Speaker 7: hard and critically and examine our own viewpoints, part of
• 28:37
  Speaker 7: a good liberal arts education, I suppose. But I, I
• 28:41
  Speaker 7: do think, and this goes back to like the very
• 28:42
  Speaker 7: beginning of our conversation. I do think women in general are,
• 28:46
  Speaker 7: are incredibly capable at critical thinking and evaluating our own
• 28:51
  Speaker 7: ideas and thoughts because we've had to since the time
• 28:54
  Speaker 7: we were about five. I'm running about six different scenarios
• 28:57
  Speaker 7: in my head every day and have been from the
• 29:00
  Speaker 7: time I was in kindergarten, right?
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: Like, am I talking too much? Am I raising my
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: hand too much? Should I wear this? Should I sit
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: in the back? Should I be in the front?
• 29:06
  Speaker 7: So I think women are just like constantly re-examining and
• 29:09
  Speaker 7: evaluating what they do, what they think, why they think
• 29:12
  Speaker 7: it in a way that actually I think makes us
• 29:14
  Speaker 7: incredible leaders, incredible lawmakers, incredible attorneys. Any job that requires critical.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: Thinking and examination, I think women are just.
• 29:24
  Speaker 7: For that reason, like, ironically, the thing that made us
• 29:28
  Speaker 7: have to be so capable is the patriarchy and misogyny,
• 29:33
  Speaker 7: but it's created in us the ability to out strategize
• 29:37
  Speaker 7: and out think so many of the men who. kind
• 29:40
  Speaker 7: of put that down, um, as the gauntlet that we
• 29:42
  Speaker 7: have to survive in. So I think it's sort of,
• 29:45
  Speaker 7: you know, there's only, I.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: Just think we're getting to a critical mass, um, where
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: the levy is going to break. Yeah.
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: Uh, let's hope it's broken.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Let's hope that the levy has now broken. I, yes,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: this has been just, an insane, awful story and so
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: heartbreaking and all of the things. But Chloe, we are
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: so grateful that you came on and gave us your perspective, really.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: to be here.
• 30:13
  Speaker 7: I'm grateful to you all for covering this story and
• 30:15
  Speaker 7: for having these conversations and not sensationalizing this and having
• 30:21
  Speaker 7: a genuine conversation around it, I think is so important.
• 30:24
  Speaker 7: And I will just say from a personal standpoint, how
• 30:28
  Speaker 7: unbelievably proud I am of Jane Doe as a fellow Cornellian,
• 30:33
  Speaker 7: the courage that it took to do what she did.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: And I think.
• 30:38
  Speaker 7: The courage to be imperfect and to be complicated and
• 30:42
  Speaker 7: to be misunderstood in this world as a woman is
• 30:46
  Speaker 7: I think one of the most absolutely beautiful things that
• 30:51
  Speaker 7: can exist. And I'm just, I'm so proud. To say
• 30:54
  Speaker 7: that I went to the same school that she attended.
• 30:57
  Speaker 7: She makes me feel proud to have gone to Cornell
• 31:01
  Speaker 7: because of her behavior, her absolute courage. So people say
• 31:07
  Speaker 7: to me, aren't you embarrassed to have gone to Cornell?
• 31:10
  Speaker 7: And I say, no, I went to the same school
• 31:12
  Speaker 7: as Jane Doe.
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: I hope she hears that. I love that.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I hope she hears that too.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: I hope that you're not the only one. I'm sure many, many,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: many women are thinking it. So I hope they're all
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: saying it.
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Very well said.
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: Thank you for joining us.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: Yes. Thank you all so much.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Really an honor chatting with you. Thank you so much.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: Likewise. Thank you.