Latest / Voddie Baucham Sermons / Voddie Baucham - The Militant and Triumphant Church Voddie Baucham, Travis Allen, Tom Buck, Tom Ascol, Conrad Mbewe

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Voddie Baucham - The Militant and Triumphant Church Voddie Baucham, Travis Allen, Tom Buck, Tom Ascol, Conrad Mbewe · Voddie Baucham Sermons

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: So this very first question, simple question, but the person
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: who asked it added a little bit of commentary. So
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: I'll ask the question, then I'll add the commentary. So
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: the questioner asks, when thinking about ecclesiology, is there a
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: difference between the church and the kingdom of God? And
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: if so, what is it? So that's the question. What
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: is the difference between the church and the kingdom of God?
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: And then a little bit of commentary. In Matthew 13, 41,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: it says, the Son of Man will send his angels
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: and they will gather out his kingdom together. out of
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: his kingdom all causes of sin and all lawbreakers. So
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: he says it stands to reason that lawbreakers are part
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: of his kingdom prior to the judgment. So again, the question,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: what is the difference between the church of God and
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: the kingdom of God?
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: They don't know.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: Well, the kingdom of God is the rule of God.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's what that idea is, it's what the
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: words mean, and so where does God rule? Well, He
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: rules everywhere. Everything outside of God, He's ruling. But the
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: manifestation of His rule with glad submission on the part
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: of His subjects is found when the gospel goes in
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: power and the Spirit of God regenerates a person, and
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: so the kingdom of God is within you, as Jesus said.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: So there's that glad submission to the rule of God.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: The church, or are to be comprised of people who
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: are in glad submission to the rule of Jesus as Lord.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: And so churches ought to be expressions of the kingdom
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: of God, but churches are not the kingdom of God
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: in that sense. And if you're talking in a more
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: general way, of course God rules everywhere, so the kingdom
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: of this world shall become the kingdom of our Lord
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: and his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: So that's going to happen. That Matthew 13, the parable
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: of the tares and the wheat that was sown together,
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: do we sort this out now? No, God will sort
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: it out at the end of the age. By the way,
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: that's not the church. The field is the world. So
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: a lot of people will use that. Some of our
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: Presbyterian friends will use that wrongly. And some of our
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Baptist friends will say, well, see there, you shouldn't worry
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: about church discipline or you're going to have unconverted people
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: in your churches and you Baptists have it. And so
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: we know that when we baptize our kids that not
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: all of them are going to be believers. It's not
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: that Jesus says the field is the world. So on
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: that day, when he wraps up history and brings in eternity,
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: there's going to be the separation. And he tells us
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, you know,
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: that many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: work mighty works in your name? He says, no, not
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: everybody who says to me, Lord, Lord, is going to
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: enter the kingdom of heaven. And he'll say, depart from me,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: you workers of lawlessness. I never knew you. So there
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: will be a sorting on that day of those who
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: have had an external appearance of being under the lordship
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: of Christ, but who did not possess Christ. There's so
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: many verses about this that warn us of this. 1
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: John 2, 19, they came out from among us because
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: they were not of us. Had they been of us,
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: they would have stayed with us. They wouldn't have come
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: out from among us. So yes, we recognize that even
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: in the best churches, there are going to be some
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: who are are outside of Christ who have professed Christ.
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: And there's, you know, good night. It used to be,
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: it won't be this way much longer. It's not as
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: much as it used to be 50 years ago. But
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: if you were born in America, you're a Christian, right?
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: You know, it's just, I'm not a Muslim, I'm a Christian.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: So there will be that sorting on the day of judgment.
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: God will make it all right. Churches have the responsibility
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: now through discipline to honor Christ's lordship. and to represent
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: the kingdom on the world. In one sense, churches, well-ordered,
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: ought to be outposts of the kingdom. So we are
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: like colonies of heaven, and when we're functioning the way
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: we ought to, we are displaying the power and the
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: truthfulness of the message we proclaim. So we're not saying
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: one thing and then living contrary to it. No, we're
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: saying Jesus is Lord, This is what it means when
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Jesus is Lord. We forgive, we repent, we trust, we
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: believe together, we involve each other in our lives, and
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: we move forward.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: The second question, how can a husband shepherd his wife
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: to prepare for persecution that comes from being a faithful pastor?
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: And maybe I would add, how can a husband shepherd
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: his wife to prepare for persecution that comes from being
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: a faithful Christian? It seems that there seems to be
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: a vice grip tightening slowly upon the church, and so
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's just pastors who are going to
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: deal with this. I think faithful Christians are going to
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: deal with this.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: I'll jump in here, start this one out.
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: I think a husband would shepherd his wife, and just
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: like a pastor is going to shepherd his church, we're
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: entering into a time where coming out of maybe a
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: benign culture and entering into a more hostile, oppositional culture.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: And I think that all the churches are learning to
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: adjust to that. And so I think what has been
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: common for churches throughout church history is.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Now becoming our reality.
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: We've been a bit of an anomaly, I think, in
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: our country and the Judeo-Christian foundations of our country where
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: There's been a lot that we can assume of even
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: unbelievers around us that they're going to respect the church,
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: they're going to respect Christ, respect the law, and that's yesterday.
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: So we're entering into a time, I think, when we're
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: all having to adjust to that, prepare for it, and
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: I think pastors are preparing their churches for persecution, opposition,
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: going to those texts that solidify our understanding of God
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: and his sovereignty and his power his care, his protection.
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: And I think that in the same way that a
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: pastor is gonna prepare his church, a husband is gonna
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: prepare his wife as well.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: We're all prone to anxiety and worry and fear.
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: And so any of those texts that are gonna solidify
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: our confidence in God and deepen our conviction, we wanna
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: inject that into ourselves and our own hearts and settle
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: our hearts and be at peace. And we wanna inject
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: that into our family members as well. And it starts
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: with our wife. And when a wife and a husband
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: come together underneath the powerful protection of God, his care,
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: his fatherly care, his fatherly protection, that's going to transfer
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: down to the whole family as well. So I think
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: that'll serve us well as we head into this future
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: that's uncertain from our vantage point.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Would you, do you consider the.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Civil rights movement of the 1960s with leaders such as
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Jr., would you consider that an example
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: of the church militant?
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: Yes and no. There was a sense in which much
• 7:34
  Speaker 5: of what happened during that time was rooted in and
• 7:39
  Speaker 5: founded in the church, there was a sense in which
• 7:45
  Speaker 5: much of what was being advocated for at that time
• 7:49
  Speaker 5: was being advocated for based on principles rooted in the scriptures.
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: And so I think that in one sense, there's very
• 8:01
  Speaker 5: much that. But in another sense, there were very powerful
• 8:07
  Speaker 5: and vocal actors who were anything but Christian who were
• 8:16
  Speaker 5: also a very big part of that and had a
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: great deal of influence in it. And I think because
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: we had the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King as the
• 8:30
  Speaker 5: kind of focal point, there's a tendency to conflate those two.
• 8:38
  Speaker 5: And that's That's usually problematic. I think another problem is
• 8:44
  Speaker 5: that many of those within the movement and within the leadership,
• 8:52
  Speaker 5: including Dr. King, had theological convictions that would have been
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: inconsistent with biblical truth in a number of areas.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: So, yes and no.
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: The reason I wanted Votie to answer this is he
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: and I had a long conversation sometime last week or so.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: He's doing research that touches on this, and it was
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: eye-opening to me. So keep praying for Votie as he
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: continues his research that God will bless that and fruitfulness
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: in the next year or two.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Would you say that the church today has given ground
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: to the enemy and may not recognize it?
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: And if so, how do we gain that ground back?
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Would you say that the church today has given ground
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: to the enemy and they may not recognize it? And
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: if so, how do we get that ground back?
• 10:02
  Speaker 6: All right, well, I mean, there's just a lot of
• 10:05
  Speaker 6: areas that we've given up ground.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: What are pieces of ground that we've not given up, maybe?
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: I'm kidding.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 10:16
  Speaker 6: I mean, it should be obvious that one of the
• 10:19
  Speaker 6: biggest areas is how that we're addressing the whole issue
• 10:22
  Speaker 6: of same-sex attraction.
• 10:24
  Speaker 7: Living Out is a perfect example.
• 10:26
  Speaker 6: You know, you kind of wonder how that organization and
• 10:30
  Speaker 6: group got into the church and became mainstream so quickly,
• 10:34
  Speaker 6: even within circles that are reformed like we are. In fact,
• 10:39
  Speaker 6: it was reformed men and pastors and groups that were
• 10:43
  Speaker 6: bringing them in. And they were introducing concepts that, or
• 10:49
  Speaker 6: Living Out was introducing concepts that are absolutely antithetical to
• 10:54
  Speaker 6: what God's Word teaches. So we began to start dealing
• 10:59
  Speaker 6: with things like, well, attractions are not in and of
• 11:01
  Speaker 6: themselves inherently sinful. Well, if you have a disordered desire,
• 11:06
  Speaker 6: that certainly is different than someone who has a a
• 11:10
  Speaker 6: desire that is in excess to God's Word, that is
• 11:14
  Speaker 6: like a desire of a man for a woman that
• 11:18
  Speaker 6: God created and designed it to be that way, and
• 11:20
  Speaker 6: then someone begins to sin in excess of God's design,
• 11:25
  Speaker 6: the desire itself is not inherently sinful. But when you
• 11:28
  Speaker 6: deal with the issue of same-sex attraction, you have an
• 11:32
  Speaker 6: attraction that is disordered.
• 11:36
  Speaker 7: It is completely— there would have That would have never existed.
• 11:41
  Speaker 6: There was no such thing prior to the fall, although
• 11:45
  Speaker 6: there certainly would have been, prior to the fall, attraction
• 11:48
  Speaker 6: of a man to a woman.
• 11:49
  Speaker 7: And so how we got there, I don't know.
• 11:52
  Speaker 6: And having conversations with men, I think, that have allowed
• 11:56
  Speaker 6: some of this to come in, I think a lot
• 11:58
  Speaker 6: of it's been in the fact of where that, well,
• 12:00
  Speaker 6: our friendships with these guys. And these men agree on
• 12:04
  Speaker 6: all these other areas with me. Well, this is a
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: fundamental issue. It's an issue of if it's sinful, then
• 12:13
  Speaker 6: we must call them to not only turn from practicing
• 12:17
  Speaker 6: the sin, but we should call upon them to ask
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: God to remove that attraction. I'm not saying it will
• 12:25
  Speaker 6: be overnight. I'm not saying that it ever will be,
• 12:27
  Speaker 6: but they need to battle the attraction as much as
• 12:29
  Speaker 6: anything else. But living out says it's actually wrong for
• 12:33
  Speaker 6: us to call upon someone to seek. That's their language.
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: We should not call upon someone to seek to move
• 12:40
  Speaker 6: away from that. So that's a huge issue. It's a
• 12:43
  Speaker 6: major shift. If you go to somebody, not even this
• 12:46
  Speaker 6: far ago, but let's just say 50 years ago, if
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: you walked up to somebody that was a conservative evangelical
• 12:51
  Speaker 6: and would have been in that camp 50 years ago,
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: they wouldn't know what you're even saying at that point.
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: So we've given up major ground in that, and the
• 12:58
  Speaker 6: argumentation that's being used can be directly applied to now
• 13:01
  Speaker 6: what we're seeing, minor attracted person That's become, and I
• 13:05
  Speaker 6: don't know how they're going to, if you take their
• 13:07
  Speaker 6: same logic, I don't know how they defend that. We
• 13:09
  Speaker 6: have created in the church, broken down a wall that
• 13:13
  Speaker 6: is going to allow the enemy to just run right
• 13:16
  Speaker 6: in and trample upon us if we don't get a
• 13:18
  Speaker 6: hold on this quickly.
• 13:19
  Speaker 7: So that'd be one area.
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: And like so many other things, what happens is the
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: world latches on to this, right? So now, you know,
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: we've talked about Canada's C4 bill, right? which is this
• 13:33
  Speaker 5: exact theology, that the problem and the error comes in
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: when you believe that you need to correct someone on
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: something like this. And now these people become, you know,
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: to borrow a term, you know, useful idiots, right? Whereas
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: people like, you know, the Canadian legislature or whatever can
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: say that you know, enlightened Christians already understand this rightly, right?
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: And so, again, it becomes an opportunity to seed ground
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: not only within, but then without.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: I learned on your podcast, Tom and Graham, as you
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: were talking to the head of the Liberty Coalition Canada,
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: he said that the MP that brought this, the C4,
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: Canadian Bill C4 before the Parliament, is Rob Moore. He's
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: a He comes from an evangelical background. And so he
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: is the one bringing this to a vote and calling
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: for this unanimous decision where everybody stood up and applauded
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: this calling Christianity, calling the biblical view of sexuality a
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: myth that should not be perpetrated to the harm of
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: individuals in Canada and to the harm of Canadian citizens.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: That's an evangelical saying that. So that's what's coming into
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: the government.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: So yeah, they're.
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: Useful idiots on the one hand, but on the other hand,
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: they're perpetrating this on their entire country. So giving ground,
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: that's one issue where we're giving ground. And I think
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: when you talk about giving ground, I'm looking at my
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: church and I'm saying, we're trying very hard not to
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: give ground. Okay, so there are faithful churches that are,
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: churches represented here where we're not giving ground, we're fighting
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: to not give ground. I think it's what we're making
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: the call to do. Other churches is stop giving ground.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: Join the counterculture, the revolution in a biblical direction so
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: that we don't give ground. I think one of the
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: ways that we tend to give ground or evangelicals can
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: give ground, confessionally, they can believe in the sovereignty of
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: God and salvation. Confessionally, they're Calvinistic. But practically, they can
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: be very Arminian in their view of reaching the lost
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: and And in their practice, they can reach the lost
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: through trying to appeal to them, trying to soft-pedal gospel
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: issues to them. So one way that a church can
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: very quickly become liberal is through their evangelism, through an
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: Arminian approach to evangelism. And that just weakens everything. So
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: I think so much of CRT and the cultural Marxism
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: and all the re-voice stuff. And there's another one coming out,
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: Theology in the Raw, I think is the conference, where
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: where some people that we've counted as friends in the
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: past are going there, and they're in support of exactly
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: what Tom was talking about, this side B Christian kind
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: of thing.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: So I think through an.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: Approach to evangelism that's Arminian in its practice, it's not
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: confessionally Calvinistic and functionally Calvinistic, fearing God and calling sinners
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: to repentance and not shaving off any hard edges of
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: the gospel. I think that's a way that the church...
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: Can give ground.
• 16:55
  Speaker 7: Yeah, you mentioned revoice.
• 16:57
  Speaker 6: And I think that for the most part, evangelicals are
• 17:01
  Speaker 6: seeing the problem with revoice. I think one of the
• 17:03
  Speaker 6: issues is groups like the living out. It's kind of
• 17:06
  Speaker 6: this middle way or this trying to find that. And
• 17:09
  Speaker 6: I think it was Spurgeon that said that true discernment
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: is not knowing the difference between right and wrong, but
• 17:13
  Speaker 6: knowing the difference between right and almost right. And I
• 17:15
  Speaker 6: think that's a huge issue that we have going on
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: right now. Because anytime you point out this is off,
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: people say we need to be gracious, we need to
• 17:24
  Speaker 6: be gentle in that situation. As I kind of talked
• 17:27
  Speaker 6: about what biblical gentleness was yesterday. We need to start
• 17:30
  Speaker 6: practicing true biblical discernment. we need to be able to
• 17:34
  Speaker 6: discern between right and almost right. And if it's just
• 17:36
  Speaker 6: almost right, we need to run from that, or at
• 17:39
  Speaker 6: least identify enough to help that person clarify, make it right,
• 17:43
  Speaker 6: or show their error that they're really completely wrong.
• 17:48
  Speaker 8: Yeah, the addition that I really wanted to make is
• 17:51
  Speaker 8: a comment I made last time when I was preaching. Well,
• 17:55
  Speaker 8: the first sermon towards the end. And it's the fact
• 18:00
  Speaker 8: that as Christians, Jesus doesn't just change us as individuals
• 18:07
  Speaker 8: and bring us into a colony of faith. He mandates
• 18:12
  Speaker 8: us to be salt and light in the world. And
• 18:16
  Speaker 8: what seems to me as an outsider visiting to be
• 18:22
  Speaker 8: happening is that there is a subtle shift where Christians
• 18:31
  Speaker 8: are getting into a kind of garrison mentality that let's
• 18:35
  Speaker 8: sort of shut ourselves in and just make sure we
• 18:39
  Speaker 8: hold out as long as possible when really from the
• 18:45
  Speaker 8: very beginning the world is in darkness it's in rebellion
• 18:51
  Speaker 8: it's ignorant of the words of God hardened by sin
• 18:57
  Speaker 8: and we are mandated by Christ to be salt and
• 19:04
  Speaker 8: light in the world. Not just our pastors, who have
• 19:09
  Speaker 8: a very big responsibility to preach the truth, and it's
• 19:13
  Speaker 8: sad that many are reversing and beginning to survive on
• 19:22
  Speaker 8: equivocals and even abandoning the truth. But even those who
• 19:30
  Speaker 8: are the sheep who are mingling with the world on
• 19:35
  Speaker 8: a daily basis.
• 19:37
  Speaker 9: I think it's crucial that.
• 19:39
  Speaker 8: As Christians, that the biblical truth should be radiating forth
• 19:47
  Speaker 8: from all of us.
• 19:49
  Speaker 9: I think that's really the little that I wanted to
• 19:52
  Speaker 9: add to this.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let me give three areas. We mentioned sexuality. Feminism,
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: another area. I mean, with the sexuality, Karen Swallow Pryor,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: who's a professor at Southeastern Seminary, endorsed Revoice. And in
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: talking to Danny Akin, the president, he said, well, she
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: signed all our confessions, you know, so that's okay. It's
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: kind of like, you're not right, but it's not completely bad, wrong.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: So there's an example. Thabiti Anyabwele recently has come out
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: and spoken of pastors. We all try to encourage pastors.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: He or she probably needs it. You know, I mean,
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: he just said that. And then he doesn't like the
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: fact that people said, hey, you said that, but he
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: said that. So what is that? Well, It's giving ground.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: It's giving ground. Abortion. Abortion. We saw ethicists lose their
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: mind last summer because the Southern Baptist Convention passed a
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: resolution saying abortion is essentially murder and it should never
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: be right. And the call for we need to end
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: this murder of unborn children and all these ethicists, well,
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: you don't understand. You don't understand. I try to remind
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: our folks regularly. Look, we're being discipled. Your children are
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: being discipled 24-7 by the world. You're being discipled. Your
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: kids are being discipled. You let them watch Disney movies
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: and stuff without commentary, without helping them. It's not innocent.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: It's not neutral. They're being discipled. And I'm not saying
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: don't ever watch a Disney movie, though you'd probably have
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: a better life if you didn't. But just disciple. Help
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: your kids to see, recognize what's going on. in these
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: things that they're being submitted to and realize they're being
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: trained to think. And you want them to think from
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: the worldview of the scriptures. So our churches need to
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: own the responsibility to help our kids and our adults
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: to think Christianly because they're going to be discipled. We're
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: going to be discipled. And if we don't understand that
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: and take it seriously, we've lost already. And then underneath
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: all of that is what we've already talked about here
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: in this conference, but I cannot emphasize it enough. It's
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: law and gospel. Who says what's right? Who says what's just?
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: Who says what's loving? Who says what's gracious? God says that.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: And yet we're constantly being told, you're not being loving
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: because you tell this guy who says, I'm a gay Christian,
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: that you know what, you really need to deal with
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: this because you're not thinking right and you bought into
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: wrong ideologies. Oh, that's unkind of you. That's unloving. That's
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: not unkind, according to God's word. That's loving. So it's law, gospel.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: I think churches would be well served if they just
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: took maybe six months to read the Ten Commandments every
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: time they gather. Just read the commandments. Just remind people
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: that God has given us his law.
• 22:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, I confess that I grew up
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: in an era when even issues like talking about how
• 22:50
  Speaker 6: we speak to someone who is dealing with homosexuality, I
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: grew up hearing homosexuals mocked from the pulpit in ways
• 22:57
  Speaker 6: that are ungodly. So, you know, I remember Howard Hendricks
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: in seminary saying that the church seems to only be
• 23:02
  Speaker 6: balanced when it's swinging from one end of the pendulum
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: to the other and just for a slight moment.
• 23:06
  Speaker 7: And we need, we're now at the other extreme.
• 23:10
  Speaker 6: We still need to, of course, we need to communicate
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: lovingly and graciously. But part of loving someone and being
• 23:16
  Speaker 6: gracious to them is speaking truth to them. How gracious
• 23:20
  Speaker 6: and loving is it to look at someone and coddle
• 23:22
  Speaker 6: them into hell?
• 23:24
  Speaker 7: This is ridiculous.
• 23:25
  Speaker 6: So we can certainly drive people out from hearing the
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: gospel preached by us because we're acting in ungodly ways
• 23:32
  Speaker 6: in the way we communicate it. But we can also
• 23:35
  Speaker 6: be assisting people on the road to hell by not
• 23:38
  Speaker 6: telling them the truth. And we better quickly learn how
• 23:40
  Speaker 6: to do this in a way that's consistent with the scriptures.
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: Just go look at Christ's model of ministry and Paul's
• 23:47
  Speaker 6: model of ministry. and it'll become very crystal clear to
• 23:51
  Speaker 6: you of how you need to speak boldly and succinctly
• 23:54
  Speaker 6: and directly at the same time with the humble attitude
• 23:57
  Speaker 6: that I too am a sinner who needs the grace
• 23:59
  Speaker 6: of God, and I am calling you to come out
• 24:02
  Speaker 6: from your sin and to Christ just like I had to.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm struck by, you know, Tommy said the
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: law in the gospel, the correct understanding of that is
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: the right way to go about seeing how we overcome
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: these issues. And this issue of same-sex attraction and the law,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, to say that my desires don't matter, what
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: does Jesus tell us when he summarizes the law? It's
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: all about the desires. It's all about the affection. Love God,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: love neighbors. So Christ is certainly interested in our desires.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: And connected to this question, how does the church speak
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: to these cultural issues, these political issues, without losing our
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: focus on the Gospels?
• 24:48
  Speaker 8: Yeah, first of all, let me just throw in this
• 24:53
  Speaker 8: point that at the end of the day, there's no
• 24:57
  Speaker 8: contradiction between the two things. First of all, when we're
• 25:01
  Speaker 8: thinking in terms of the gospel, we are recognizing that.
• 25:07
  Speaker 9: The world is fallen. Simply going to the world.
• 25:12
  Speaker 8: To say, pick yourself by your bootlaces is mocking the world.
• 25:18
  Speaker 8: they need the grace of God through the gospel. God
• 25:23
  Speaker 8: himself who has given the law has also given the
• 25:29
  Speaker 8: gospel through his son, the Lord Jesus Christ. So what
• 25:33
  Speaker 8: we're basically doing as we're going in, in any situation,
• 25:38
  Speaker 8: we are mindful that they need God through.
• 25:43
  Speaker 9: Christ and he's made that provision.
• 25:47
  Speaker 8: However, Having done that, and that's the point, having done that,
• 25:52
  Speaker 8: we recognize the fact that that light needs to spread
• 25:58
  Speaker 8: where the darkness is. And so individuals who are thus
• 26:04
  Speaker 8: being transformed by the gospel need to be challenged not
• 26:10
  Speaker 8: to put that light under a bushel, but rather lift
• 26:15
  Speaker 8: the lid so that they are able, in whichever sphere
• 26:20
  Speaker 8: they might be, to bring in the revelation of the Creator.
• 26:28
  Speaker 8: He is not to be hidden within the four walls
• 26:32
  Speaker 8: of the church. He created, He's put in all that
• 26:37
  Speaker 8: is necessary for life and living, and therefore we are
• 26:42
  Speaker 8: to make His mind known. And it is in that sense...
• 26:46
  Speaker 8: that we become cultural transformers. And we need to emphasize
• 26:53
  Speaker 8: that because as long as we are remaining in our
• 26:57
  Speaker 8: comfort zone, and that's all that we are doing with
• 27:02
  Speaker 8: respect to the Christian faith, then what we are doing
• 27:06
  Speaker 8: is we are allowing the darkness to be the one
• 27:10
  Speaker 8: to be invading the church. We should recognize there is
• 27:15
  Speaker 8: a real fight In fact, we're talking about the church militant.
• 27:19
  Speaker 8: There's a real fight. It's a bloody fight. We, as
• 27:26
  Speaker 8: the Christian church, must get out there and put up
• 27:30
  Speaker 8: that gallant fight.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: Just to augment that comment, we in our church have
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: been going through Luke's gospel for quite some time, and
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: it's been remarkable, a real joy for me to see
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: Jesus out among the people. And it doesn't matter what
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: he encounters, what he faces, whether it's a demoniac, whether
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: it's someone in need of healing, whether it's someone who says, teacher,
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me. So
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: inheritance issues, whether it's traditions of the elders and the
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: scribes and the Pharisees and washing before meals, it doesn't
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: matter what the issue is. Every issue for Jesus becomes
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: a gospel issue. Everything is an entrance to speak about God,
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: his claim on the person's life, a demand that human
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: morality can't meet. And just exactly what Conrad said, that
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: we are not preaching moralism. It's cruel to preach moralism.
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: Get better to the culture. They can't get better. They
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: need regeneration by the Spirit of God. They need to
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: be born again. And so we preach the gospel. That
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: law drives them to the gospel. It drives them to Christ.
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: And you see Christ doing that all the time.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: It doesn't matter.
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: It doesn't matter if he's in a house, if he's
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: in a synagogue. It doesn't matter if he's out among
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: the people. He's out there. And it's certainly salt and light.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: And so that's exactly our pattern. Even though we're not
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: all conducting itinerant ministries, we're in one place, in one location,
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: and God has given us a reach, given us a
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: sphere of influence.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Christ is our pattern.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: So whatever issue, whatever conversation, whatever trouble people are going through,
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: this is all a doorway into the gracious gospel of
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: God that saves sinners.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: So there's been quite a bit of discussion, and Pastor Travis,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: you talked about this directly in your sermon yesterday about eschatology.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: And so the question is, what is the importance of eschatology?
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: How much unity can we have? when we have differing
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: views of the end times?
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: You know, I spent the better part of my early
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: ministry concerned about eschatomania, you know, And trying to avoid eschatomaniacs.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: And what finally dawned on me is I'd become an eschatophobiac.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: And that was no better. So I've come to understand, yeah,
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: this is vitally important. I mean, this is the telos.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: This is where everything is going. And praise God that
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: he's revealed it to us from the beginning, from Genesis. However,
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: God has not given us everything as clearly as we
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: might like to have. In this area. And so we
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: have these conversations. A lot of them, Graham and I
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: talk about these things. Sometimes our elders will get into
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: it a little more broadly. And I talk to pastors
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: about it all the time. About, you know, where are you?
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: And man, there's things that I see. There's bedrock realities
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: that every Christian must be willing to say yes to.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Or else you're bad wrong. So, I mean, Jesus Christ
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: is coming back bodily today. There's going to be a real, genuine,
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: bodily return of the Lord Jesus. We don't know when
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: that's going to happen. So anybody that tells you they
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: got that figured out, you know they're wrong. I mean,
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: you just know that right now that it's not there.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: It hadn't even been revealed to the Son, to the apostles.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: And so we know that. Thirdly, he's going to come
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: back and make all things right. There is an eschaton.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: There is righteousness. an eternity when there will be no
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: more sorrow, no more tears, no unrighteousness, no sin. Everything
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: will be made right. And as my friend Richard Barcellas
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: has put it in one of his books, it'll be
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: better than the beginning. I mean, the beginning was great
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: and what God set forth, but the end is going
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: to be on a better foundation because it won't be
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: dependent upon a mere man who is capable of sin.
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: It'll be on the basis of the God-man who once
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: for all has earned everything, who is never, ever going
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: to lose anything that he's accomplished. So our eternity will
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: be fully secured much better than at the beginning. So
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: where you have Christians that can agree on those basic realities,
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: then the question of, okay, what are the details surrounding that?
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: What is the millennial reign? When is the millennial reign?
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: We ought to have fraternal debates about that. And, you know,
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: I've shifted in my own thinking over the years. And
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: people ask me now, you know, they say, well, you
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: sound like a postmillennialist. Are you a postmillennialist? And I'll say, well,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: you know, I might be a postmillennialist with a low
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: level of insurance, you know. Or I might just be
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: a really optimistic amillennialist, you know. But there are things
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: that I see in the Scripture that haven't happened yet
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: that we're told are going to happen. And I look
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: forward to that. And I think I'm looking forward to
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: a wonderful outpouring of God's Spirit. How, when, what that's
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: going to relate to the very end, I don't know.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: And I'm happy to have the debate. So all that
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: to say, yeah, it's important. And every time I try
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: to get into this and go more, I'm just further
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: reminded of I've got a little bitty pea brain and
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: it's stained by sin. And this is God, you know,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: so I don't get all exercised that I can't figure
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: it all out. And the guys I love, we disagree
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: on some things. And that's fine. I think that's a
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: true fraternal kind of appropriate way to engage something that's
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: very important, but good people would see differently in the details,
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: the details of which are not going to separate us
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: because we agree on the essentials.
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: To this point, I think it's very important to note
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: and very telling that none of the early confessions tried
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: to settle this. All of the confessions, all of the
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: Reformed confessions have, here are the absolute truths that we
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: all agree on, but none of them stake out a
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: particular eschatological position.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: You asked about the purpose of eschatology, and I think
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: that Just within what these men have well said, we
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: do want to study what the Bible does reveal because
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: God reveals what he reveals about the future to give
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: us hope and to strengthen our assurance and confidence that
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: God is sovereign.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: He's got a plan. He's wise. He's good. He's powerful.
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: Evil does not triumph. Good triumphs. God triumphs. Christ wins.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: He has won. We in him win. Those are things
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: we need to hear. We need to hear when we
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: look around and see that evil seems to prevail. We
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: just need to realize, like he was preaching out of
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: Acts chapter, or I keep saying Acts. It's Psalm 2.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: Psalm 2. Just to see that God laughs. He finds
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: the rebellions of this.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: It's like an ant.
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: Shaking its fist at a combat boot, coming down on
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: top of it. All the rebellions of kings and tyrants
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: are laughable. They're comical to God who stands in heaven.
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill.
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: He's winning.
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: You better kiss the sun because he is going to
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: crush your rebellion.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: So I think that's the purpose.
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: And as much as you could, the eschatological phobia, as
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: Tom described, we don't want to do that We do
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: want to study the details that God has revealed, but
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: we've got to stop there and not speculate and then
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: start to divide in our speculations.
• 35:56
  Speaker 6: I think it's important to remember also one of the
• 35:59
  Speaker 6: major purposes of eschatology is not merely to think about
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: the future, but to affect how you live now. So
• 36:08
  Speaker 6: Scripture says that those who long for the return of
• 36:10
  Speaker 6: Christ purify themselves. So what's amazing to me is how
• 36:14
  Speaker 6: many people who've who fight over eschatology act in very
• 36:18
  Speaker 6: impure ways in the way that they do it. So
• 36:20
  Speaker 6: if my eschatology, whatever it may be, is not causing
• 36:24
  Speaker 6: me to become more Christ-like and not causing me to
• 36:27
  Speaker 6: seek to purify myself here and now, it doesn't matter
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: what your position is, you're holding it in a way
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: that the Bible never intended you to hold it.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Tom, you said that we can have fraternal debates on eschatology.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: I was wondering if we could do that right now.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 36:44
  Speaker 5: Sure.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: Tom Buck, you're wrong. Let us demonstrate that.
• 36:49
  Speaker 9: And someday you'll believe.
• 36:50
  Speaker 7: In a rapture.
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Tom, we'll explain it to them
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: on the way up. Sort out all the error. I'm sorry, Tom.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: I should have said, my brother, you're wrong.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Fraternal. That's good, that's good. Okay, moving on. We could
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: talk about eschatology forever.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: And we will.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: And we will.
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: But I think that that's also, you know, not to
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: belabor it, but I think that's also a beautiful picture
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: of the point that we're making. You know, we have
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: brothers we love dearly and go to war with, not against,
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: go to war with. We have different eschatological positions, you know? And,
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: you know, we hold those positions. We teach those positions.
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: We'll argue for those positions. But that's not what the
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: whole thing is about. And it shouldn't be that kind
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: of a barrier.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: Not to belabor the belabored point, but I couldn't agree more.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: I was in the Navy and went to the first
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: Gulf War, and I loved the Army dogs I worked with,
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: the Marines I worked with, the Navy guys, the Air Force.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: All of them have different perspectives on and different missions
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: and different things they're interested in and good at. But man,
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: it's one force trying to do one thing. And so it's,
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: and especially when you go through the kind of difficulty, pressure, stress, affliction,
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: some persecution that we're going to be going through more
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: and more. I mean, our brother James Coates couldn't make
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: it here to this conference because of what's going on.
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: That's a brother in arms.
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: So the more pressure that comes upon us the more
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: in Christ we're squeezed together and we're welded together in
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: heart and mind and marching forward with one purpose and
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: one mission. Man, when you suffer together, you're forged together
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: in one force under Christ. So I love these guys.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: So you think there's more and more persecution coming. That
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: means you're not a post-millennialist?
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: All right. I do think there's more difficulty coming for us. Yes,
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: I do. I don't know the other part of the
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: question you asked.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: So what should a church member do when his eyes
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: are open to how the church is lifting up or
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: supporting critical race theory, intersectionality, Black Lives Matter, et cetera?
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: He's the only member attempting to point out these errors.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: So what should a church member do when he seems
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: to be the only person in his church that sees
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: these errors?
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: The only person in the church, I'm sorry, who sees
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: the errors of intersexuality, critical race theory?
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: The only person.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: In his congregation, yes.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: He might want to go to a faithful church. Next question.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: I mean, but I get this question a lot, and
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: usually it's with tears from people that have been members
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: of a church for 25 years or more, you know,
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: and they just, I mean, they love the church. It's family.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: They've invested in the church, and then suddenly it's like,
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: What are we saying? What are we hearing? And it's disorienting.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: And I'm very sympathetic to that because this was a
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: disorienting thing for me. I had friends that, you know,
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: Votie and Michael Fallon, some others that were telling me
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: years ago about some of this. And it's just like,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: you know, okay, okay, you know, but I wasn't getting
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: it until maybe five years ago, four and a half,
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: five years ago. And I just, it was disorienting. I'm
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: thinking these are not in our church. but in the
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: broader evangelical world, because these are men that I love
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: and respect, and having conversations with some of them privately,
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: and hanging up and thinking, we're in trouble. We're in trouble.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: What do you do? And so what Travis says, right,
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, and I've seen it happen. People have left
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: churches where they have been faithful members for decades. And
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: they're heartbroken over it. It ought to be a heartbreaking
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: thing when you leave a church. There's a time to
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: leave a church. You can do it in the right way.
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: So I would be admonishing you to humility, but try
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: to talk to the leadership. Try to give them resources
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: that you have learned from and just ask them, you know,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: am I seeing this wrong? Be humble enough to do
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: that because you might be seeing it wrong. And can
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: we look at the scriptures? You know, maybe have conversations
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: in a broader context with some people that Have you
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: talked to this pastor or would you make this phone call?
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: You need to be careful about that. But godly leaders
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: want to be helped. The Bible in 2 Timothy 3,
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: 16 and 17, Paul mentions four purposes for which the
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: Bible is useful and sufficient. It's for teaching, doctrine, for correction,
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: for reproof, for training in righteousness. Four things he says there.
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: Two of them are negative purposes. Reproof, correction. So if
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: you're reading the Bible and it's only ever affirming what
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: you already think, you're not reading it the right way.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, we shouldn't be offended whenever we find our
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: minds changed by the Word of God. That's what it's
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: designed to do. And godly leaders understand that and would
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: want that. So if you can help them by giving
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: them resources, you know, give them Vody's book, Fault Lines.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Just say, would you read that? I've read this. Man,
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: this has opened my eyes. Could you help me?
• 42:41
  Speaker 7: Here.
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: Here.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: And what you might discover, and this has happened so
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: many times, again, it's heartbreaking to me, just listening to
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: the stories, is the leaders saying, no, no, no. You know,
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: we're going this way. Votie's not right about this, or
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: these guys got an agenda that's not biblical, and they
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: just reject it out of hand. I think these issues
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: are vitally important, and I would not stay in a
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: church like that. And with sorrow in my heart, I
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: would say to the leaders, look, I we're going different ways.
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: I don't want to make your life miserable. And I
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: know you don't want to make my life miserable. And
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: especially if you've got young kids or kids, I can't,
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: I just, we're going to have to go. We want
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: to do it in the right way. Would you pray
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: for us? We'll pray for you. And then as, as
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: humbly as you can and as respectfully as you can
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: to leave the church and try to find a church
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: where these things are seen more clearly, but it's happening
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: all over. I, Since I've been here this week, I've
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: talked to many of you, churches that have split, churches
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: that are beginning to go the wrong way or have
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: gone the wrong way. It's heartbreaking. So be a Christian.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: Just go back to what the Bible tells you to
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: do as a Christian every day, and you do this
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: in a Christian way with humility, meekness, resolve, and a
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: determination to follow the Scripture wherever it leads you, whatever
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: the cost, whatever the consequence.
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: If I could just And this first came on, the
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: CRT intersectionality and all that started coming on my radar
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: as a result of what you men did in the
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: statement on social justice and the gospel. And when I
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: read that, it didn't take me long to get on
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: the right side of the issue. I could see what
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: you men were saying, and I wanted what seemed faithful
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: to Scripture to me. Votie, when did this come on
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: your radar, these kind of issues? Because you've been studying
• 44:32
  Speaker 4: for quite some time.
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: Probably somewhere between 04 and 07. Yeah, back when I
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: would kind of get the eye roll. And Tom, as
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: you were talking, I remember, I don't remember, I guess
• 44:49
  Speaker 5: four or five years ago, as you said, when I
• 44:52
  Speaker 5: think I came to an event or something, and you
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: said something to the effect of, listen, we've talked about
• 44:59
  Speaker 5: this before, but I think we need to talk about
• 45:03
  Speaker 5: it again. And so I think it's really important for
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: us to recognize that for a lot of people, this
• 45:14
  Speaker 5: kind of caught them off guard. And for a lot
• 45:18
  Speaker 5: of people, they're not really embracing the ideology, but they're
• 45:26
  Speaker 5: downstream looking at shiny objects, right? And they hear racial justice, right? And,
• 45:35
  Speaker 5: I mean, that's a shiny object, you know? And you
• 45:38
  Speaker 5: swallow that, and the next thing you know, there's a
• 45:39
  Speaker 5: hook in your mouth, right? Or anti-racist, right? That just
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: sounds like something we ought to be, right? And so, again,
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: it's a shiny object, and we go for it. So
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: I think we also need to be really careful and
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: make sure that what we're dealing with is not someone
• 46:00
  Speaker 5: with good motives who happens to be naive, was grabbed
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: onto some shiny objects and didn't really understand the implications
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: of it versus people who have sort of imbibed this ideology, right? Hook, line,
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: and sinker. And one of the ways that you'll be
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: able to tell the difference is when you push back
• 46:27
  Speaker 5: and ask for clarification, you'll make some headway, right? A
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: person who hears the term, for example, racial justice, but
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: has not imbibed CRT, you press them on that and
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: ask them to define that. And you may be able
• 46:48
  Speaker 5: to move them to another term because they don't mean, right?
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: It's kind of like I always say, it's that princess
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: bride theology, right? You keep on using that word. I
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: do not think it means what you think it means, right?
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: Inconceivable.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: And so, you know, I think we need to be
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: careful on that because there's some people, you know, you
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: got your ears perked up and somebody, you know, just
• 47:19
  Speaker 5: says the word justice and you're ready to get up
• 47:21
  Speaker 5: and leave, right? So I think we need to be,
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: you know, slow to speak, quick to listen, and make sure. Yes.
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: So you were providing early warning for many people. That's
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: quite a few years earlier, and I'm sure for quite
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: some time you were a voice crying in the wilderness
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: and hoping someone was going to hear the message.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: A crazy person. Crazy person, as some would say.
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: Eating locusts and wild honey and such. Locusts kind of
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: get in your beard, though, and honey and all that.
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: But that warning, there were other people that started to
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: heed it, came out with your book, Social Justice and
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: the Gospel Statement. And so those who hear the clarity
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: of the gospel in that book and in that statement,
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice.
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: Listen to me and follow me.
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: So I think if you're in a church, just going
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: back to the original question when you said if you're
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: the only guy in a church who is seeing this,
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: maybe it's exactly what you said, that They're just not aware.
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: So don't leave hurriedly. I was kind of joking a
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: little bit when I said that. But take some of
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: these resources. You don't have to do the fighting on
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: your own. You don't need to do the articulation on
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: your own. Just take a resource to them and say, hey, listen,
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: this has really impacted me. Bring it to your leadership
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: and say, what do you guys think of this? My
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: sheep hear my voice, Jesus says. So if they hear
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: the shepherd's voice through these resources... and they start to
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: make changes in the church, man, that's a good church.
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: That's one that's going to humble itself before the Word
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: of God and be in submission to God's Word.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Stay there.
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: Be a part of that.
• 49:07
  Speaker 9: Change.
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: Help them.
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: But if they refuse to listen, you do want to
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: find a faithful church that's in submission to God's Word.
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: I think we need to realize this thing's been flying
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: under the radar for a longer than it's been.
• 49:21
  Speaker 7: Talked about openly and publicly. And a lot of the, some.
• 49:26
  Speaker 6: Of the people that have been promoting this, either covertly
• 49:29
  Speaker 6: or overtly or maybe even implicitly or whatever, are individuals
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: that we respect and individuals that we've told other people
• 49:37
  Speaker 6: to respect. The first time that I heard any of this,
• 49:41
  Speaker 6: I'd never heard any CRT. I didn't even know what
• 49:42
  Speaker 6: I was hearing at the time. I didn't have a
• 49:45
  Speaker 6: category for it. And it was in 2015 at a
• 49:48
  Speaker 6: Nine Marks event where they talked about, that's the first
• 49:52
  Speaker 6: time I heard we're white supremacists.
• 49:53
  Speaker 7: That's the first time I heard that. And that was
• 49:55
  Speaker 7: in 2015.
• 49:56
  Speaker 6: And then given the Divided by Faith book, which is
• 49:59
  Speaker 6: heavily CRT, and Dever endorsed that book and it's still
• 50:03
  Speaker 6: up on the ERLC website. So, you know, the only
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: reason I mention names is not because I don't love
• 50:09
  Speaker 6: my brothers.
• 50:09
  Speaker 7: I do love them.
• 50:10
  Speaker 6: And maybe that is why I mention their names is
• 50:11
  Speaker 6: because I love them. And I love people to say,
• 50:14
  Speaker 6: these are men that have contributed in my life in many,
• 50:16
  Speaker 6: many ways and helped me see many, many things well
• 50:20
  Speaker 6: and better. But this is very dangerous. And I don't
• 50:23
  Speaker 6: think people realize how dangerous it is. It's been flying
• 50:26
  Speaker 6: under the radar for a long time before that because
• 50:28
  Speaker 6: I think Divided by Faith started to be promoted in
• 50:31
  Speaker 6: these evangelical circles around 2011.
• 50:34
  Speaker 7: So this has been a decade going on.
• 50:36
  Speaker 6: And pastors have been steeped in this, even within the
• 50:39
  Speaker 6: Nine Marks Network. And so you're going to have good
• 50:43
  Speaker 6: pastors and good churches that have been influenced by this.
• 50:46
  Speaker 7: So it's a hard topic right now. Acts 29.
• 50:50
  Speaker 3: Acts 29. SBC.
• 50:51
  Speaker 5: There's the PCA. This thing has really infiltrated a lot
• 50:57
  Speaker 5: of the places where we've had friends over the years.
• 51:01
  Speaker 6: And I spent at least four years of trying to
• 51:04
  Speaker 6: have conversations because I thought, maybe I'm wrong.
• 51:07
  Speaker 7: I really did. I went and bought the books and
• 51:09
  Speaker 7: I read them. I didn't even talk to you yet.
• 51:11
  Speaker 6: You really helped open my eyes for a lot of this, Vody,
• 51:13
  Speaker 6: because I didn't know what was wrong with it. And
• 51:16
  Speaker 6: so I think you've got pastors out there too who
• 51:19
  Speaker 6: respect these voices and they've listened to them on all
• 51:22
  Speaker 6: these other things.
• 51:23
  Speaker 7: They're like, well, they can't be this.
• 51:24
  Speaker 6: This is just a bunch of troublemakers that are trying
• 51:27
  Speaker 6: to stir things up.
• 51:28
  Speaker 7: Now, I care about the truth.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: Well, that is kind of true, though.
• 51:33
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 51:34
  Speaker 5: I'm just saying, we are a bunch of troublemakers who
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: like to stir things up, so I'm just going to
• 51:40
  Speaker 5: go ahead and own that.
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: I think it's a grace of Christ in preparing the
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: church for the future, though, that the What he's revealing
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: is we should not have an institutional allegiance, but rather
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: a higher allegiance to the authority of God's Word and
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: the truth. And so he's calling people out of institutions
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: that maybe have drifted and don't even realize it. And
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: he's used this CRT issue to start to draw the
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: dividing line.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: Who's going to come to it? Let me mention this
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: to you. In and through all this, be Christian. I mean,
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: if you see this, somebody else doesn't, why is that?
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: It's not because we're so much smarter or holier. God's
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: shown us this. This is from God. John Newton talks
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: about people who become Calvinists and then get mad at
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: folks who aren't Calvinists. This is like a blind man
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: that has his eyes open miraculously and he goes around
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: and he gets a stick and he goes and beats
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: up other blind people because they can't see. And we
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: mustn't do that. I've had, not a bunch, but I've
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: had a few pastors who've called me And asked for
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: my forgiveness because of public statements they've made about me
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: being crazy or going down the wrong road. And they said,
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: we didn't see it. We see it now. We were wrong.
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: Praise God for that. And again, it's not because I'm
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: smarter or holier than they are. God, in whatever, again,
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: I still ask this question. Why, Lord? There's so many
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: other people that should be doing things far better and
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: more readily, better equipped than what I am. And If
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: God's shown me something, it's his grace. So be patient.
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: We can't be haughty. But don't bend either. Don't budge.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: Because if what we're saying is right and true, then
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: we have got to toe this line come what may.
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: Doesn't matter. Even if friendships, relationships have to be severed. Sad, heartbreaking.
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: But don't budge. Because these are issues of eternal life
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: and death.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: One of the questions that was asked that I'm not
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: going to ask is, with everything going on, why aren't
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: we naming names? But that's kind of a silly question
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: after this panel discussion.
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: Because Alexander the coppersmith lives on Main Street. Yeah, that one.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: Not that one. That one over there.
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: Well, this will be our final question for this morning.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: It's a simple question. Well, at least simply asked. How
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: do we accurately assess the spiritual maturity in our local church?
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:29
  Speaker 8: I just want to read very quickly Colossians chapter 2,
• 54:33
  Speaker 8: verse 6 down to verse 8. Therefore, as you received
• 54:39
  Speaker 8: Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and
• 54:45
  Speaker 8: built up in him. and established in the faith just
• 54:50
  Speaker 8: as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
• 54:55
  Speaker 9: See to it that no one takes you.
• 54:58
  Speaker 8: Captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition,
• 55:06
  Speaker 8: according to the spirits of the world, and not according
• 55:11
  Speaker 8: to Christ. If I was to try and summarize my
• 55:16
  Speaker 8: answer to this question, I would say that ultimately the
• 55:20
  Speaker 8: health of individuals and the health of the church depends
• 55:27
  Speaker 8: on our appreciation of the person and work of Christ.
• 55:34
  Speaker 8: His relevance, in a very real way, his relevance to
• 55:39
  Speaker 8: the whole of life. When individuals abandon that foundation and
• 55:47
  Speaker 8: begin to build their lives on all kinds of things,
• 55:52
  Speaker 8: we have examples here and the kind of topic we
• 55:55
  Speaker 8: just had a minute or two ago. The outward facade
• 56:03
  Speaker 8: may still look like church, but the inner life has
• 56:09
  Speaker 8: begun to be eaten away. It's a matter of time
• 56:14
  Speaker 8: the structure will cave in and collapse. When husbands, wives, parents,
• 56:24
  Speaker 8: children build their lives on Christ, you have not just
• 56:32
  Speaker 8: a strong church for today, but you're building a strong foundation.
• 56:37
  Speaker 9: For the future.
• 56:39
  Speaker 8: So if I was to listen in in terms of
• 56:43
  Speaker 8: being a doctor seeking to ascertain the health of God's people.
• 56:51
  Speaker 9: I really want to know.
• 56:55
  Speaker 8: Is Christ really treasured there? Is he the main message
• 57:03
  Speaker 8: in the pulpit? Is he the glue that is keeping
• 57:08
  Speaker 8: us together? as brothers and sisters in the Lord. Where
• 57:14
  Speaker 8: that is number one, number two, number three, all the
• 57:19
  Speaker 8: way to number 10, you have true spiritual vitality there.
• 57:25
  Speaker 8: Where that is compromised, I would say we need to
• 57:29
  Speaker 8: do a lot of foundational work to ensure that we
• 57:35
  Speaker 8: have the right structures for true spiritual health.
• 57:39
  Speaker 9: So ultimately, it's Christ.
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you, brothers, for your candor, for your wisdom
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: this morning, and for your labors.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: Let's give our speakers a hand.