Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 21: Why are Women Leaving the Church and 7 Biblical Ways to Empower Women in the Church with Dr. Cathie Smith + What is Greater than Serving?!

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Episode 21: Why are Women Leaving the Church and 7 Biblical Ways to Empower Women in the Church with Dr. Cathie Smith + What is Greater than Serving?! · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

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Speaker1: Pastors and church leaders, without women flourishing in the church,
0:04
Speaker1: the church won't flourish.
0:05
Speaker3: Do pastors realize this dynamic? Are they actively
0:10
Speaker1: Discipling the ladies of the church?
0:13
Speaker0: It's easy to underestimate the value of a pastor speaking into a female's life
0:18
Speaker0: and just saying something that seems so obvious to you or maybe other leadership,
0:24
Speaker0: but may not be so obvious to the female herself.
0:27
Speaker0: And along those lines is to exhort God's calling in their lives and give them
0:31
Speaker0: opportunities to respond to what God is calling them to do.
0:34
Speaker0: So not just helping them to identify their gifts, but really helping them to
0:38
Speaker0: know how to respond to that and giving them opportunities to respond to that
0:43
Speaker0: and encouraging them to do that.
0:58
Speaker1: Find health, encouragement, practical advice, soul care, and resources that
1:04
Speaker1: work together to build up your local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.
1:08
Speaker1: Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole
1:10
Speaker1: and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.
1:14
Speaker1: Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal
1:18
Speaker1: of making every church flourish.
1:20
Speaker1: And welcome into episode number 21 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.
1:26
Speaker1: We are sponsored by the Great Commission Association of California.
1:30
Speaker1: And today we have the GCA's own Dr.
1:34
Speaker1: Kathy Smith here to talk about empowering women in the church and a related
1:40
Speaker1: discussion on why women are leaving the church in what appears to be unprecedented numbers.
1:47
Speaker1: Maybe there's a connection between those two things. After the interview,
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Speaker1: we're going to look up one of the greatest women of Scripture,
1:54
Speaker3: A precious saint that Dr.
1:57
Speaker1: Smith discusses and brings up, and we're going to find out what made her stand out to Jesus.
2:03
Speaker3: Okay, we're going to transition into our main interview right now,
2:06
Speaker3: where Pastor Christopher Cole and I interview Dr. Kathy Smith.
2:10
Speaker3: And in the spirit of today's podcast, I think it would be wrong to mansplain
2:14
Speaker3: all about who Dr. Kathy Smith is.
2:16
Speaker3: So I'm going to ask her to introduce herself.
2:20
Speaker3: So Dr. Kathy Smith, tell us your background, your experience in ministry and
2:25
Speaker3: how you landed with the Great Commission Association in California.
2:29
Speaker0: Thank you, Chase. So it's been a journey for sure.
2:32
Speaker0: But at an early age, I felt that the Lord had called me into missions.
2:37
Speaker0: And that has definitely been the theme throughout all of the jobs and responsibilities
2:42
Speaker0: that I've had up to this point.
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Speaker0: And my current role now is to identify, encourage, and equip women and ministry leaders.
2:50
Speaker0: And before I had worked with GCA in the past and that was more in a care kind
2:55
Speaker0: of position with pastor's wives, mainly creating spaces for them.
3:00
Speaker0: But this role is more of a catalytic role, really trying to encourage and equip
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Speaker0: women in ministry to be able to,
3:07
Speaker0: grow in their understanding of their calling and their gifting and to be able
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Speaker0: to employ that for kingdom purposes, for God's glory and to build up the church.
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Speaker0: So I have three kids and I'm married to Dr. Chris Smith as well.
3:21
Speaker3: Well, speaking of Dr. Chris Smith, he was on one of our more recent episodes and
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Speaker3: He told us a little about your time in Spain as missionaries,
3:30
Speaker3: and he said his favorite food in Spain was paella.
3:35
Speaker3: Do you concur with this or do you have a different one?
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Speaker0: Definitely paella is not my favorite food because it usually has seafood,
3:42
Speaker0: and I'm not a really big seafood person, but there are some seafoods I like,
3:47
Speaker0: like calamari, which I recognize as seafood, but it's different.
3:51
Speaker0: It has to be fried. But I really like their french fries because they were cooked in olive oil.
3:58
Speaker3: Nice. Okay. Well, I got the most important question out of the way there.
4:02
Speaker3: So over to you, Pastor Christopher.
4:03
Speaker2: Well, right. I mean, I got to follow that up, though, with another question
4:06
Speaker2: that's not so important before we dive into the in deep.
4:10
Speaker2: Because, Kathy, on this podcast, we try sodas from around the world.
4:15
Speaker2: Is there a soda from Spain that we should be trying? Is there something that's
4:20
Speaker2: unique to Spain as like a Spanish soda? There is a certain version of Fanta,
4:24
Speaker0: Or Fanta as it's called here. I forgot which one it was.
4:28
Speaker0: If it's lemon that we don't have here or... Interesting. I think it's lemon and it was very good.
4:34
Speaker0: But we also lived really close to Portugal. And so we could get different sodas
4:39
Speaker0: in our grocery store from other countries. And there were a lot of Brazilians
4:43
Speaker0: in Portugal. And so we had Guaraná.
4:45
Speaker2: Interesting.
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Speaker3: I just ordered after that interview with Dr.
4:49
Speaker3: Smith, your husband, I ordered a case of Guadana to review on an upcoming episode. I'm so excited.
4:56
Speaker2: So excited about that.
4:58
Speaker0: It's very good. Awesome.
4:59
Speaker2: Well, and turning to serious things and our discussion for the day,
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Speaker2: Kathy, we're so excited to have you back with the GCA team.
5:09
Speaker2: And we're grateful for all the work that you've been doing. So one of the core
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Speaker2: questions I think you and I have been kicking around and we're having conversations
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Speaker2: about, and we want to have a...
5:21
Speaker2: An open conversation today about is to ask ourselves and each other,
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Speaker2: how can pastors and churches and church leaders empower and encourage women
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Speaker2: to use their gifts for the kingdom of God? And what are your thoughts?
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Speaker0: That is a really important question. And I think that it involves a lot of pieces
5:46
Speaker0: and it's something that I'm very passionate about.
5:48
Speaker0: So I've done a lot of research on that.
5:51
Speaker0: And I know that a lot of pastors like alliteration and I'm not always that good
5:55
Speaker0: at it, but I actually do have alliteration for this part.
5:59
Speaker0: And there's even seven steps.
6:03
Speaker0: So that happens rarely to me, but it did happen this time.
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Speaker2: But I think- Alliteration and seven steps. I think we're approaching something
6:13
Speaker2: here that shall not be named.
6:14
Speaker3: A plus.
6:15
Speaker2: Go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead.
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Speaker0: The first thing is, it sounds really simple, but it's just engaging them,
6:23
Speaker0: engaging with them in conversation, engaging them in discipleship,
6:28
Speaker0: engaging them in conversations,
6:30
Speaker0: engaging them in opportunities for leadership and opportunities to lead.
6:36
Speaker0: So it sounds really easy because you would think that would be more natural.
6:42
Speaker0: But I think we We do tend to silo ourselves by sometimes age groups or by gender groups.
6:48
Speaker0: And there's a lot that we can learn from brothers and sisters together.
6:53
Speaker0: So the first one is just engaging them.
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Speaker0: And the second is to encourage their gifting and help them to identify their gifts.
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Speaker0: And as I was looking into different people, different female leaders,
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Speaker0: and reading some of their interviews, a couple of things stood out.
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Speaker0: And one of them was that several times really influential leaders that we would
7:16
Speaker0: recognize today on national levels that are females mentioned that they didn't
7:21
Speaker0: realize their gifting until their pastor helped them to identify it.
7:25
Speaker0: And I think that it's easy to underestimate the value of a pastor speaking into
7:31
Speaker0: a female's life and just saying something that seems so obvious to you or maybe other leadership,
7:37
Speaker0: but may not be so obvious to the female herself.
7:41
Speaker0: And along those lines is to exhort God's calling in their lives and give them
7:45
Speaker0: opportunities to respond what God is calling them to do.
7:48
Speaker0: So not just like helping them to identify their gifts, but really helping them
7:52
Speaker0: to know how to respond to that and giving them opportunities to respond to that
7:57
Speaker0: and encouraging them to do that.
7:59
Speaker2: Well, hold on, hold on right there, because you just said an amazing three things, right?
8:06
Speaker0: So, so engage them.
8:07
Speaker2: And then from that engagement, first off, you just have to see women.
8:11
Speaker2: We have to see them in the church as fully imago Dei. They are in the image of God.
8:19
Speaker2: They're redeemed. They are gifted. They are called and callable, right?
8:25
Speaker2: And I think that to do that work first requires us to have spiritual eyes to see, right?
8:33
Speaker2: Like Jesus sees Mary and Martha, right?
8:37
Speaker2: And he engages them with deep theological truth in some profound ways,
8:43
Speaker2: right? And I love where you're going with this, this idea of exhorting women
8:49
Speaker2: to live up to their calling and their opportunities. But I just would say to
8:55
Speaker2: maybe Pastor Jason, I could just speak to this for just a second,
8:59
Speaker2: but I do think both of us with our pastoral experience,
9:02
Speaker2: it can be a temptation to look past the male leaders in the church or to be
9:09
Speaker2: uncomfortable as a pastor not knowing how to engage women leaders in the church.
9:15
Speaker2: And so we default to just sort of looking past them, except maybe in some very
9:21
Speaker2: narrow, defined sort of expectations in traditional gender roles.
9:27
Speaker2: So excellent stuff. I just I had to jump in there and just say, I think, oh, no,
9:31
Speaker0: Any time.
9:32
Speaker2: So. All right. So we have three. What else you got for us?
9:35
Speaker0: So along with that, then, is equipping women for disciple making.
9:41
Speaker0: And I think that that is also like that's so vital because we we know that the
9:47
Speaker0: command to make disciples is is for men and women. It's not just for men.
9:52
Speaker0: And so women sometimes, though, aren't always in those conversations or maybe
9:58
Speaker0: they don't understand how disciple making looks for them.
10:01
Speaker0: But that is definitely something that pastors and male leaders can help them for.
10:06
Speaker0: But even beyond that, I think just allowing women to understand and helping
10:12
Speaker0: them to understand educational opportunities.
10:15
Speaker0: I can't tell you how many times I've heard of examples through the research
10:20
Speaker0: that I've done or heard other people's thinking that seminary wasn't for women,
10:25
Speaker0: that it was just for men or just for certain kinds of leaders.
10:29
Speaker0: And so I think just even helping women to be equipped through informal teachings
10:36
Speaker0: at church, but also allowing them to know about the formal opportunities.
10:40
Speaker0: And as I was looking at different things of Jesus and women,
10:44
Speaker0: something stood out to me, and it would be interesting to have y'all's comment on this too, but how.
10:49
Speaker0: Women were often at Jesus's feet listening and he was a rabbi.
10:55
Speaker0: And traditionally, as from what I understand in that culture,
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Speaker0: that that would not be normal to be mixed gender.
11:02
Speaker0: But Jesus affirmed Mary for doing that when Martha, I was going to get them
11:08
Speaker0: mixed up, but I think I did it right.
11:10
Speaker0: Martha was the one that was serving and doing more traditional female role things.
11:15
Speaker0: But Mary was at Jesus speak, learning and listening and learning about him,
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Speaker0: which was sometimes not a place that women in her culture would have been allowed
11:25
Speaker0: to be, but Jesus made a space for that.
11:28
Speaker0: And so I think like that equipping and teaching piece is really important for women.
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Speaker3: You mentioned one of my heroes in scripture.
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Speaker3: A lot of denominations and branches of the body of Christ make a big deal out
11:42
Speaker3: of Mary, the mother of Jesus.
11:44
Speaker3: Totally understand why. There's some reasons to do that. But just in terms of
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Speaker3: the ministry of Jesus, his relationship with Mary of Bethany is fascinating.
11:57
Speaker3: And all of the things he says about her and just the very fact that he knows
12:03
Speaker3: he's going to be crucified and he's literally days away from ending death.
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Speaker3: His life on earth, at least for a few days.
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Speaker3: He says, I'm going to go see Mary, Martha, and Lazarus.
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Speaker3: So we don't know a lot about his relationship with that family,
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Speaker3: but the way Jesus talks about and commends Mary of Bethany, I don't think Protestants,
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Speaker3: Catholics, Orthodox, I don't think we pay enough attention to it,
12:35
Speaker3: especially Protestants.
12:36
Speaker3: Just as you say, a magnificent example of the kind of person who understood
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Speaker3: who Jesus was pre-resurrection and gave her life to listening to him in the
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Speaker3: most appropriate way possible.
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Speaker3: I think it's just an amazing example of the first commandment in action and illustration. Yeah.
13:02
Speaker2: And I think to that point, when we talk about these concepts of engaging women, right?
13:08
Speaker2: I'm still sort of stuck on that first one. Do we see the women and then are we equipping them?
13:15
Speaker2: You know, one of the things that strikes me is that in the New Testament,
13:20
Speaker2: Jesus reveals himself in some unique and powerful ways to women.
13:26
Speaker2: I think of John chapter four, right?
13:29
Speaker2: Before, you know, at the phase of his ministry early enough in his ministry,
13:35
Speaker2: where Jesus is not revealing himself fully to his disciples.
13:39
Speaker2: It's to the woman, the Samaritan woman, by the well, that he has this deep theological,
13:45
Speaker2: personal conversation.
13:47
Speaker2: And she says, I know, likely in Aramaic, she's saying, I know when Taheb comes,
13:54
Speaker2: not likely when she's saying Mashiach, the Messiah.
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Speaker2: But she says, I know when he comes, he will reveal to us all these things.
14:03
Speaker2: And Jesus says this remarkable thing, I'm he, which is one of the great I am's of scripture, right?
14:09
Speaker2: And she goes running into the town.
14:12
Speaker2: You talk about the movement from revelation to equipping to commissioning happening shortly.
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Speaker2: She goes running into the town and says, could this be the one,
14:25
Speaker0: Right?
14:25
Speaker3: Right.
14:25
Speaker2: Or, of course, we just passed Easter. And who does Jesus reveal himself to choosing
14:32
Speaker2: to reveal himself to there in the garden and saying,
14:36
Speaker2: go tell my brothers, go tell my brothers who are not here, by the way,
14:42
Speaker2: that I'm alive and I'm going to meet up with them.
14:45
Speaker2: And so I think we have powerful scriptural evidence that Jesus is not looking past women.
14:50
Speaker2: And also, I think I can say this to maybe correct an over-tendency in some cases in our church.
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Speaker2: He's not speaking to women through men.
15:01
Speaker2: Jesus is not afraid to speak directly to women and empower them.
15:07
Speaker2: On the point of equipping, if I could jump back to that just for a second,
15:11
Speaker2: I think there are some amazing opportunities.
15:15
Speaker2: For women to be equipped. Outside the church, this will be a plug for Dr.
15:20
Speaker2: Chris Smith's Great Commission Training Institute, we train men and women equally in those classrooms.
15:28
Speaker2: You know, we give those things. And then, of course, Gateway Seminary,
15:33
Speaker2: where women are embraced as full students.
15:36
Speaker2: And I know that's not always true in all seminaries. So we fully believe women
15:42
Speaker2: can and should be equipped, and we're thankful for those outside the church things.
15:47
Speaker2: But if we can maybe park for a second on the question of how do we equip women in the church?
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Speaker2: What are some areas, Kathy, that you think...
15:58
Speaker2: Male pastors need to invite women into specific areas of equipping?
16:03
Speaker0: One of the main things I think is leadership formation.
16:08
Speaker0: And Katie Cole has a lot of, same last name as you, has a lot of really good material in that.
16:15
Speaker0: She talks about like the spiritual formation, but the leadership formation.
16:18
Speaker0: And sometimes it's more maybe the spiritual formation that women get.
16:24
Speaker0: Hopefully they get that. But it's also important for women to get leadership
16:28
Speaker0: training and leadership formation.
16:30
Speaker0: And sometimes that doesn't happen because they're not in the same room as men
16:35
Speaker0: when decisions are being made at church.
16:37
Speaker0: So they're not having the same training opportunities, not having the same opportunities
16:41
Speaker0: to see what it looks like, to deal with conflict in leadership or who is teaching
16:47
Speaker0: them how to do these things sometimes is really lacking.
16:51
Speaker0: And so I think that's why that we see women going outside of the church sometimes
16:56
Speaker0: to serve in leadership roles because they can
16:59
Speaker0: They are allowed different roles, but they also get training in different ways.
17:05
Speaker0: And it's kind of in subtle things. But even if you look at some LifeWise statistics
17:10
Speaker0: that they had recently, it's about 83% of women, I believe, are volunteers.
17:16
Speaker0: So that means they're probably not coming to staff meetings.
17:20
Speaker0: They're probably not getting the same information as maybe other leaders,
17:26
Speaker0: which could also be other female leaders that were paid. but generally it's more males.
17:30
Speaker0: And so they're missing lots of connection points. And then on top of that.
17:35
Speaker0: Only 5% of women plan alongside their pastors.
17:40
Speaker0: So they're kind of creating these silos unintentionally.
17:45
Speaker0: And so then women groups become more siloed and more separate accidentally because
17:50
Speaker0: there's not planning that's happening.
17:52
Speaker0: So then there's conflict of vision, but there's not opportunities to meet with the pastor.
17:58
Speaker0: And it's what one article I read was talking about that it's women are looking
18:04
Speaker0: for not just permission, but partnership.
18:08
Speaker0: And there was actually a great article that J.D.
18:11
Speaker0: Greer did with his discipleship leader, Leslie Hildreth. And they were talking about that.
18:18
Speaker0: Pastors would be surprised because they think that they're giving their women
18:22
Speaker0: permission. And they are. They're giving women permission.
18:24
Speaker0: They're giving them freedom to do ministries, to lead out in their calling in
18:28
Speaker0: so many ways. But there's not a partnership. It's just kind of like, okay, you do it.
18:32
Speaker0: You do your own thing. I don't really need to be involved.
18:35
Speaker0: You just move forward. And so there's not a partnership. So there's not like
18:40
Speaker0: joint planning. There's not brainstorming.
18:42
Speaker0: There's not leadership development. There's not collaboration.
18:45
Speaker0: And if you look at a staff meetings, a lot of times that they're primarily male
18:51
Speaker0: dominated, not always, but primarily.
18:53
Speaker0: So, and if, if there are more than one female, then what happens?
18:57
Speaker0: The men go to one side, the women go to another side for lunch or for other things.
19:02
Speaker0: And obviously we want to be wise
19:04
Speaker0: to not have one-on-one conversations in places that are not protected.
19:11
Speaker0: But I think that we sometimes forget that we are brothers and sisters and that
19:16
Speaker0: we can actually learn from each other and that we can be wise and careful,
19:21
Speaker0: but it doesn't mean that we can't ever have a conversation, if that makes sense.
19:26
Speaker2: Absolutely. And can I just say, I'll confess here,
19:30
Speaker2: like in my first pastorate, the first pastorate I had in California as a lead
19:34
Speaker2: pastor for nine years and having been on staff, I had served alongside and in
19:40
Speaker2: partnership actually with women leaders at my church in Texas and I
19:43
Speaker2: But when I got to my first church, I was perfectly willing to let or permit
19:50
Speaker2: the women to have their Bible studies and so on.
19:54
Speaker2: But aside from maybe occasionally glancing at the material they were using and
19:59
Speaker2: trying to say, hey, I'm just not sure that person was very theologically sound,
20:04
Speaker2: I didn't see it as my responsibility.
20:07
Speaker2: And I was dead wrong, right? how could I be shepherding 60% of my church,
20:13
Speaker2: and most of our churches are minimally 60% women?
20:17
Speaker2: How could I do this in a way that doesn't say that's my responsibility?
20:22
Speaker2: As a shepherd, means that I have to be able to come alongside women leaders
20:27
Speaker2: and say, how do we equip together?
20:30
Speaker2: And the truth was that, in part, I didn't want to have to acknowledge I was
20:33
Speaker2: ignorant. I didn't know how to train mature women leaders in the church.
20:37
Speaker2: I was a 24-year-old pastor.
20:39
Speaker2: I was barely figuring out how to lead myself, let alone
20:43
Speaker2: any other men. And it took me a long time in ministry to come to the realization
20:49
Speaker2: where this is an important aspect to see the women, engage them,
20:56
Speaker2: Yes, to exhort them, to call them out, but also to equip them and equip them equally. Yes.
21:03
Speaker2: Equally with resourcing and training and not assuming that the women are to
21:09
Speaker2: be less substantively equipped.
21:12
Speaker2: And I think there's a modality that says, well, in some churches,
21:17
Speaker2: well, we're going to equip the men, and then in theory, these men are going to equip their spouses.
21:23
Speaker2: Well, one, that assumes way more of the church is married than it actually is.
21:28
Speaker2: So what happens to single women and the widows?
21:31
Speaker2: That's a huge question. And then secondly, the truth is I've pastored enough
21:36
Speaker2: men to know that most men are terrible at equipping their wives.
21:41
Speaker2: And we haven't actually done a very good job of equipping husbands to equip
21:46
Speaker2: their spouses with gospel truth.
21:48
Speaker2: So there is both that direct and also that indirect equipping as well.
21:55
Speaker3: Kathy, what number are you on in your E-series? Four, five?
22:00
Speaker0: That was four. So we're going into five. Thank you.
22:03
Speaker0: So I think that's important to like, as Indirectly pointed out,
22:07
Speaker0: that there is formal and informal equipping.
22:11
Speaker0: And so that doesn't mean that the only way that you can be equipped is formally
22:15
Speaker0: through seminary or training class, but it's very much a great way.
22:19
Speaker0: And I believe in our seminaries and our GCTI classes that equip,
22:24
Speaker0: but it's not the only way.
22:25
Speaker0: And so I think that's important that we let women know that there are ways for
22:29
Speaker0: them to be involved in both formal and informal, and that we provide opportunities
22:35
Speaker0: to do that, which is really hard.
22:38
Speaker0: And then not just doing that, but then that goes into the fifth E,
22:41
Speaker0: which is established ministry pathways for women.
22:45
Speaker0: Because we talk about so much, A, thing that women shouldn't do,
22:49
Speaker0: but we don't then talk about other pathways.
22:53
Speaker0: So I think that as church's.
22:56
Speaker0: We need to create pathways for women to be able to be involved,
23:01
Speaker0: that they can see clearly where they can lead and where they can use their gifts.
23:05
Speaker0: And that's going to look differently in each church because every church has its own personality.
23:10
Speaker0: Even in our denomination, how people use gifts and how that plays out is going
23:16
Speaker0: to look a little bit differently.
23:17
Speaker0: But there has to be pathways for both men and women that are clearly developed.
23:22
Speaker0: And I know referencing J.D.
23:25
Speaker0: Greer again, but their church several years ago went through this massive restructuring
23:30
Speaker0: and they took out, they looked at all their titles in their church.
23:34
Speaker0: Obviously, senior pastor was reserved for male that was gender based.
23:38
Speaker0: But everything else they looked at, can this role be filled by either gender
23:44
Speaker0: or like what are the qualifications that it can be?
23:46
Speaker0: Can that be a qualified male or qualified female?
23:49
Speaker0: And so they changed the wording of the descriptions to be more descriptive of
23:54
Speaker0: what it really was so that it didn't accidentally imply one gender or the other,
23:59
Speaker0: because even it can go the other way.
24:01
Speaker0: There could be some roles that maybe have become female gender roles,
24:06
Speaker0: but maybe a male is really gifted in hospitality or service.
24:11
Speaker0: So it doesn't mean that they can't serve in that role. So I think it works both
24:14
Speaker0: ways that we just are careful with our wording of our job descriptions and how it's presented.
24:20
Speaker0: There are things that need more qualifications than others.
24:24
Speaker0: Some roles need more spiritual maturity than others.
24:27
Speaker0: And I think that needs to be stated clearly and not using unnecessarily gender-specific
24:34
Speaker0: language when it's not needed. Yeah.
24:37
Speaker2: And to that point, I would just say, I think that requires what you're describing
24:42
Speaker2: requires an intentionality. For sure.
24:46
Speaker2: Right? The kind of work you're describing J.D. doing requires an intentionality.
24:51
Speaker2: Hey, we are going to intentionally not accidentally discourage women from leadership
24:58
Speaker2: roles within the church.
25:00
Speaker2: We're not going to implicitly assume gender-specific roles where those are not
25:07
Speaker2: necessarily clear or biblical.
25:09
Speaker2: And I think it takes an intentionality to make those pathways happen in a way
25:16
Speaker2: that leads to the flourishing of the church as the whole.
25:19
Speaker2: And again, maybe I'm just reflecting out of my own weaknesses and failures,
25:26
Speaker2: particularly in my first pastorate.
25:27
Speaker2: Even though I had a large number of women leaders in the church and great engagement
25:32
Speaker2: with them, I think many of them would say that they were given more of a decision-making
25:38
Speaker2: role in a bigger seat at the table than they had been in other ministry contexts.
25:42
Speaker2: The truth was that I also did not put the same intentionality there.
25:48
Speaker2: I put intentionality heavily into what it meant to disciple and equip male leaders.
25:55
Speaker2: And maybe there's a word to us here to say, if we're going to equip and establish
26:02
Speaker2: those pathways that you're talking about, they're not going to happen accidentally.
26:08
Speaker2: And I think that actually a failure to do that can provoke some of the conflicts
26:14
Speaker2: that happen regarding gender-specific or non-gender-specific roles within the church.
26:20
Speaker2: I think women who are gifted teachers, for example, if you don't give them intentional
26:25
Speaker2: pathways to develop those gifts
26:27
Speaker2: and use those gifts, they're not going to necessarily just stay passive.
26:33
Speaker2: And then that causes conflicts that may not need to occur when the truth is
26:39
Speaker2: the root level issue was we failed to be intentional on engaging and equipping
26:45
Speaker2: and exhorting and calling out the called and establishing the right pathways here for women leaders.
26:52
Speaker0: Yeah, that's very true. And there was a podcast recently that I listened to
26:56
Speaker0: with Carrie Newhoff and Katie Cole, and it was something about seven red flags
27:04
Speaker0: of why women are leaving the church and what to do.
27:06
Speaker0: And one of those things is that
27:09
Speaker0: if women aren't feeling like they can use their gifts or they can serve,
27:13
Speaker0: then they are going to leave the church because it's sort of like they don't
27:19
Speaker0: see that there's value for them, even though that's kind of a harsh way to put it.
27:23
Speaker0: But they need to feel like there's a place for them.
27:26
Speaker0: But also she mentioned that there was just a lack of trust. Katie was talking
27:31
Speaker0: about how women's ministry in the church overall hasn't changed a great deal in 50 years.
27:38
Speaker0: Like it's still kind of based on the assumption that the women are the volunteers,
27:41
Speaker0: that the women serve in serving meals. They do all of these things.
27:46
Speaker0: But majority of women, or at least a lot, especially in California,
27:52
Speaker0: are also working full-time jobs and taking care of their kids and trying to do volunteer things.
27:59
Speaker0: And so they don't have the same capacity as maybe 50 years ago when it was less
28:05
Speaker0: common for a woman to work outside of the home.
28:08
Speaker0: And so that affects how women find their place in churches.
28:12
Speaker0: And obviously, we don't go to a church for what it gives us.
28:16
Speaker0: But if we don't feel like we can use our gifts, then maybe women will go somewhere else.
28:21
Speaker0: And so I think establishing these pathways can really help to encourage women
28:26
Speaker0: to know that there is a place for them there and also that they're valued and also that we are really,
28:33
Speaker0: we really are better as a whole body of Christ together.
28:37
Speaker0: We can't just have, you know, a male body of Christ and a female body of Christ.
28:43
Speaker0: That's not biblical at all.
28:44
Speaker0: We're all in the same body of Christ and we all have to use our gifts together
28:49
Speaker0: under Christ as the head. And I think that that is sometimes.
28:54
Speaker0: Not how women necessarily feel. And so it can lead to leaving the church.
28:59
Speaker0: And then that leaves huge gaps.
29:01
Speaker0: It leaves gaps in volunteer roles, but also leadership roles,
29:05
Speaker0: mentoring roles, all kinds of other things happen.
29:08
Speaker2: You know, just to speak to that, and I'm curious what Pastor Chase might reflect on this or you.
29:15
Speaker2: You know, in the 1970s, China developed a policy, the one-child policy.
29:24
Speaker2: They were trying to address the overgrowth of their population and their capability economically.
29:30
Speaker2: And in the development of that one-child-only policy, it came with catastrophic
29:36
Speaker2: downline consequences, mass abortions of female babies in utero,
29:43
Speaker2: the exposure of women infants, the abandonment of them.
29:49
Speaker2: And now, several decades into this policy, China has done something that human biology does not do.
29:57
Speaker2: They have inverted the global demographic, which is that there have always been
30:03
Speaker2: more women than there are men.
30:04
Speaker2: But China is facing this massive lack of women, and now they don't know what to do.
30:11
Speaker2: And that has led to a secondary series of crises where there is now rampant sexual trafficking,
30:18
Speaker2: And other problems in the country because there are far more men than there are women.
30:23
Speaker2: So that's sort of a, you know, we could see that, look at that in the world
30:27
Speaker2: and go, man, that's so evil.
30:29
Speaker2: But the latest data sets are showing something very unusual happening in the church.
30:37
Speaker2: And that is that the number of millennial and Gen Z women is dramatically dropping off in the church.
30:46
Speaker2: And that is something that I think every church leader should be profoundly concerned about.
30:53
Speaker2: Because historically, even in the life and ministry of Jesus,
30:57
Speaker2: There were all these women. And the church has historically in the United States,
31:02
Speaker2: the backbone of the church in many ways has been women.
31:06
Speaker2: I mean, even as much as Southern Baptists focus on certain great male preachers
31:12
Speaker2: or things like that, we didn't name our offerings after them.
31:15
Speaker2: There's St. Lottie and St.
31:17
Speaker2: Annie, these great women who exemplify the backbone of missionality and mission
31:25
Speaker2: support within the Southern Baptist Convention, right?
31:29
Speaker2: So what happens 10 years, 15 years, 20 years down the line within SBC churches
31:35
Speaker2: if these trends continue unabated?
31:39
Speaker2: And what happens when the women are no longer there?
31:43
Speaker2: And if we don't start asking the questions about why they're not there,
31:46
Speaker2: and is it because they don't feel like the church is a safe space?
31:50
Speaker2: Is it because they don't feel like their gifts are appreciated?
31:53
Speaker2: Is it because they're what you said, hey, the world's complicated,
31:57
Speaker2: it's full of activity, and if I'm going to get treated badly at church or not
32:01
Speaker2: recognized or looked past,
32:04
Speaker2: what's going to happen in this dialogue here, right?
32:07
Speaker2: Chase, thoughts about that just sort of as a segue before we get back to...
32:12
Speaker3: Well, we got a comment on our way of showing that we value this list of E's is commenting on it.
32:19
Speaker3: So I hope it doesn't interrupt it too much. Theologically, I am a convinced complementarian.
32:25
Speaker3: That said, I cannot imagine our church, Valley Baptist Church in Salinas,
32:31
Speaker3: without the Valley Baptist ladies, and then this is important,
32:36
Speaker1: In key non-nursery churches.
32:39
Speaker3: Non-normally female positions of primary ministry.
32:46
Speaker3: If you come to our church, you're going to see ladies playing starting positions
32:52
Speaker3: on our basketball team, metaphorically speaking, because I'm convinced that 30 years in ministry,
32:59
Speaker3: the church cannot flourish without women playing key ministry positions.
33:06
Speaker3: And I think if this dynamic of women leaving the church holds,
33:10
Speaker3: and you and I both follow Dr.
33:12
Speaker3: Ryan Burge and Barna and other people who keep up with these things,
33:17
Speaker3: The fact of the matter is in every realm of life, you lose what you don't value.
33:23
Speaker3: And if the church isn't rightly valuing ladies or any group,
33:28
Speaker3: you lose what you don't value.
33:31
Speaker3: We're losing senior citizens right now. Also, it's because the church doesn't
33:36
Speaker3: value them. We sideline people.
33:39
Speaker3: And sidelining people in a high-stakes, eternal game, and I guess because I'm
33:47
Speaker3: from the South, I always think of things as sports metaphors,
33:50
Speaker3: but sidelining people in high-stakes, eternal games that are just supremely
33:55
Speaker3: important is the dumbest thing any coach can do.
34:00
Speaker3: So along those lines, and I know we got to get back to Kathy's list,
34:04
Speaker3: but this is obviously a controversial topic.
34:08
Speaker3: Just the whole women in ministry just in and of itself is a controversial topic.
34:14
Speaker3: But off microphone, we had some great conversations about this and how we're
34:21
Speaker3: going to do the episode and the right way to navigate it.
34:25
Speaker3: And one of the things we talked about was in our question that you just asked Dr. Smith, Chris, the
34:31
Speaker3: The question was originally written, and I think I wrote it. I'm not sure.
34:37
Speaker3: I'm going to take responsibility for it because ultimately I didn't like the wording.
34:42
Speaker3: How can pastors, churches, and leaders help women leverage their gifts in the kingdom?
34:49
Speaker3: And as of this morning, when I reread it, getting ready for today's discussion,
34:55
Speaker3: it struck Takmi is very manipulative, is very leaders using women to build their kingdom. So
35:03
Speaker3: pastors aren't like Jerry Jones or Mark Cuban. We don't own the team.
35:10
Speaker3: Those are the Cowboys owner, the former Mavericks, Dallas Mavericks owner.
35:14
Speaker3: We don't own the team. We don't own the church.
35:16
Speaker3: Whenever I hear a pastor say, my church, blah, blah, blah, I'm like,
35:19
Speaker3: I hope you don't mean it's your church, possessive speaking,
35:23
Speaker3: but you mean you go to the church because we don't own the church. just Christ's church.
35:28
Speaker3: We are under shepherds at best.
35:31
Speaker3: And so we're not owners of the church who utilize players to put trophies in our cabinet.
35:38
Speaker3: And I'm afraid pastors too often think like that.
35:42
Speaker3: And that's just dumb, unbiblical thinking. Okay, rant over for me.
35:47
Speaker2: Well, let me just jump in on that really quick.
35:50
Speaker2: And I'd say, I think we can go worse than that, chase,
35:54
Speaker2: we can end up especially using the weak or the less powerful or the less influential,
36:03
Speaker2: and we can create actually systems and dynamics that are designed to exclude,
36:11
Speaker2: not to empower or encourage.
36:13
Speaker2: But we can create systems and dynamics. At some point, looking past the women becomes intentional.
36:20
Speaker2: Looking past certain people becomes, or if we're looking at them and the goal
36:25
Speaker2: is to get them to do something that we think is fulfilling our agenda or that we think is beneath
36:33
Speaker2: Men, right? The Puritans said there were two consequences to the fall,
36:38
Speaker2: not just sin, but misery.
36:40
Speaker2: And misery included the systems of oppression, the systems of disengagement.
36:46
Speaker2: And we see God constantly upending those systems.
36:50
Speaker2: So the kingdoms of the world prioritize the wealthy, the powerful,
36:55
Speaker2: the influential, the people of right birth.
36:57
Speaker2: But look at the Old Testament, God's looking at the orphan and the widow over and over again, right?
37:04
Speaker2: The disempowered, the dismissed, the diminished.
37:07
Speaker2: And I think we can unintentionally create those systems and then we can intentionally do it.
37:13
Speaker2: So that what we want using your sports analogy is, yes, we want the women to
37:18
Speaker2: come in and dust the trophy case. We don't even want the women on the team.
37:23
Speaker2: We've got our star players out there.
37:26
Speaker2: We want the women in there. Can you go make that clean and fix us a good potluck
37:30
Speaker2: so the team can have a nice meal?
37:33
Speaker2: And I think that I've seen that dynamic at play in so many churches.
37:37
Speaker2: And to whatever degree I've been complicit in that, I wholeheartedly repent.
37:42
Speaker2: Because I think that that dynamic can be very real.
37:46
Speaker2: But that's why I'm speaking to the issue of that intentionality to say,
37:51
Speaker2: what are you doing to intentionally engage women?
37:54
Speaker1: Well, I think ending part one of this interview on Pastor Christopher's question
37:58
Speaker1: there is a good strategy.
38:00
Speaker1: What are we doing to intentionally engage the women of our church?
38:04
Speaker1: If you are a church pastor or church leader, in light of the current statistics,
38:09
Speaker1: Chris's question has always been an important question to ask yourself and ask
38:14
Speaker1: the leadership of the church now more so than ever.
38:17
Speaker1: What statistics? Well, great question. It seems Generation Z women are disaffiliating
38:23
Speaker1: from organized religion and leaving churches at unprecedented rates,
38:28
Speaker1: outpacing their male peers for the first time in modern history.
38:32
Speaker1: Research indicates that nearly 4 in 10 young women now identify as religiously unaffiliated.
38:39
Speaker1: Data from the Survey Center on American Life shows that women make up the majority,
38:43
Speaker1: like 54% of Gen Z individuals who disaffiliate from religion,
38:49
Speaker1: completely reversing the gender gap that we used to see in older generations prior to that.
38:55
Speaker1: And recent studies from the Barnard Group, Lifeway, and other places like that
38:59
Speaker1: highlight that young adult women now report the lowest rates of Bible reading,
39:05
Speaker1: prayer, and church attendance among their generation.
39:08
Speaker1: Earlier, Dr. Smith mentioned Mary of Bethany, a woman from Scripture who is
39:13
Speaker1: one of my heroes, primarily because, honestly, she challenges me to live a life
39:19
Speaker1: in a way that is Jesus-honoring and Jesus-pleasing,
39:23
Speaker1: But kind of goes against my instincts, generally goes against what my flesh
39:28
Speaker1: desires and what my brain thinks is a better use of my time.
39:32
Speaker1: Mary of Bethany calls us to something better than serving, and when I say that,
39:37
Speaker1: it should make you pause or jolt and question, What could be better than serving?
39:43
Speaker1: After all, didn't Jesus himself say that the key to greatness is serving?
39:47
Speaker1: And of course he did. Matthew 20, 26, on the contrary, said Jesus,
39:51
Speaker1: whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant and whoever wants
39:55
Speaker1: to be first among you must be your slave.
39:59
Speaker1: So serving is the key to greatness. And how could anything be better than that?
40:04
Speaker1: Well, we find out the answer to that question in this amazing picture.
40:09
Speaker1: Just a regular kind of household meeting with Jesus and a few friends in Luke chapter 10.
40:16
Speaker1: I'm going to begin in verse 38. While the disciples were traveling,
40:20
Speaker1: He, Jesus, entered a village, and a woman named Martha welcomed him into her home.
40:26
Speaker1: She had a sister named Mary who also sat at the Lord's feet and was listening to what he said.
40:32
Speaker1: But Martha was distracted by her many tasks, and she came up and asked,
40:38
Speaker1: Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to serve alone?
40:44
Speaker1: So tell her to give me a hand. The Lord answered her, Martha,
40:49
Speaker1: Martha, you're worried and upset about many things, but one thing is necessary.
40:56
Speaker1: Mary has made the right choice and it will not be taken from her.
41:00
Speaker1: And I think we see really three things that's important to everybody in ministry
41:07
Speaker1: that Mary of Bethany teaches us.
41:09
Speaker1: Number one, she was sitting at the feet of Jesus, listening to him.
41:14
Speaker1: Mary was listening, but Martha was distracted by her many tasks.
41:21
Speaker1: And the Greek word there for distracted, it means being drawn around or dragged
41:27
Speaker1: around. It's like a figure of speech, meaning you're pulled one way and then
41:31
Speaker1: another and then another.
41:33
Speaker1: It's very distracting to flit around doing one task after another after another.
41:39
Speaker1: And Martha was being dragged around and distracted by serving.
41:45
Speaker1: Mary sat at the feet of Jesus and listened and,
41:48
Speaker1: And Jesus commended Mary for that. Second thing we see is the thing that's better than serving.
41:55
Speaker1: Martha has the boldness to sort of correct Jesus.
41:59
Speaker1: Don't you care that my sister has left me to serve alone?
42:02
Speaker1: You know, it's like she thinks he is not seeing what's going on.
42:05
Speaker1: And of course, serving is important.
42:08
Speaker1: Martha knows this. They have known Jesus for a while.
42:12
Speaker1: They've probably been taught by him. And Jesus has taught his disciples that
42:17
Speaker1: the greatest among them will be a servant.
42:19
Speaker1: And Martha is modeling this. And you'd think that Jesus would really quickly
42:24
Speaker1: tell Mary to join with her.
42:27
Speaker1: But Jesus blows up our expectations here in Martha's too. Martha expects Mary to be scolded.
42:35
Speaker1: But instead, Jesus gently instructs Martha and gives her a different perspective.
42:42
Speaker1: You know, Martha, Martha, you're worried, you're upset about many things. That's important.
42:48
Speaker1: Keep it in the back of your mind. Martha's doing a good thing, not just a good thing.
42:52
Speaker1: Martha is doing a great thing, but it's not the greatest thing in that current situation.
42:59
Speaker1: There was an even better choice to be made.
43:03
Speaker1: Martha is worried and upset and distracted by many things, but Mary,
43:07
Speaker1: on the other hand, is doing that one thing.
43:10
Speaker1: She's made a right choice.
43:12
Speaker1: What choice did she make? Again, she's sitting at the Lord's feet and she's
43:17
Speaker1: listening to what he said.
43:20
Speaker1: Mary sat and Mary listened to Jesus. So the third thing is the one thing.
43:26
Speaker1: Hear those words of Jesus.
43:29
Speaker1: One thing is necessary. And Mary was doing that one thing.
43:34
Speaker1: Let that sentence wash over you, remembering who said it.
43:39
Speaker1: Jesus, only one thing is necessary? What do you mean?
43:44
Speaker1: We're supposed to love each other, right? We're supposed to pray, right?
43:47
Speaker1: We're supposed to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take care of the poor,
43:51
Speaker1: evangelize, do the Great Commission, serve each other, wash each other's feet,
43:55
Speaker1: all those things, right?
43:56
Speaker1: Of course we are. But Jesus is
43:59
Speaker1: telling Martha here and us, before anything else, one thing is a priority.
44:07
Speaker1: One thing is necessary. And you and I need to assess our lives today in light of those words of Jesus.
44:14
Speaker1: I'm much more naturally like Martha. I'm much more distracted by the things
44:21
Speaker1: of ministry because that's what that word there means, serving ministry.
44:26
Speaker1: It's the same word, diakonos in the Greek.
44:29
Speaker1: I'm much more distracted by the things of ministry than I am motivated to slow
44:36
Speaker1: down, stop, and sit at the feet of Jesus and listen to him.
44:40
Speaker1: So do we live our lives in light of that one thing, that one necessary thing?
44:47
Speaker1: And of course, serving is not wrong. It's the opposite of wrong.
44:51
Speaker1: We need people to serve. The church runs on those who serve and there's not
44:55
Speaker1: enough of those kind of people.
44:56
Speaker1: And Jesus, of course, loved Martha.
44:59
Speaker1: And Martha loved Jesus. And Martha was doing a great thing.
45:03
Speaker1: But what was the problem? Martha had put a good thing, a great thing,
45:09
Speaker1: ahead of an ultimate thing.
45:12
Speaker1: Apart from Jesus, we can do nothing. We learned from Jesus himself in John 15.
45:17
Speaker1: And Mary is giving us this beautiful picture of those words for us. Abiding comes first.
45:25
Speaker1: Sitting and listening to Jesus comes first.
45:28
Speaker1: Then serving and ministry. If you learn that order, you will know more about
45:34
Speaker1: ministry than 98 or 99% of the seminary grads out there.
45:40
Speaker1: And that seems like a good statement to end on. Next week, we're going to have Dr.
45:45
Speaker1: Kathy Smith back for another deep discussion as we continue down her list of
45:50
Speaker1: how to empower and release women for abiding, serving, and ministering in the church.
45:57
Speaker1: Thanks for listening. Well, wait, before I go, let me point you to a couple
46:01
Speaker1: of Great Commission Association resources that you can find on our website,
46:07
Speaker1: everychurchflourishing.com,
46:10
Speaker1: Linked in the show notes for episode 21.
46:13
Speaker1: The first thing is an article that our own pastor, Christopher Cole,
46:17
Speaker1: has written about church renewal called The God of Renewal.
46:21
Speaker1: And you're going to want to read it. and it is linked on the GCASBC.org website.
46:27
Speaker1: But like I said, you can also find it on our website, everychurchflourishing.com.
46:32
Speaker1: Also, our GCA Resource of the Month is related to church renewal and is written
46:39
Speaker1: by future podcast guests Mark Halleck and Jeremy Conrad and is a great encouragement
46:45
Speaker1: for churches to work together for the gospel.
46:48
Speaker1: All around us, pastors are discouraged. Churches are competing instead of cooperating,
46:54
Speaker1: and the witness of the gospel can feel fractured.
46:57
Speaker1: But what if the solution isn't working harder? It's working together.
47:03
Speaker1: In Radical Collaboration, Mark Halligan and Jeremy Conrad call us,
47:08
Speaker1: God's people, back to his John 17 design for unity, offering a practical vision
47:15
Speaker1: for how churches can partner,
47:17
Speaker1: Multiply, and strengthen one another for the sake of the gospel.
47:21
Speaker1: You can find that book on Amazon. It's called Radical Collaboration,
47:26
Speaker1: and it's by Mark Halleck, H-A-L-L-O-C-K,
47:30
Speaker1: and Jeremy Conrad, and you're going to want to check it out.
47:34
Speaker1: Well, that's all for this week. We will be back next week. Lord willing,
47:38
Speaker1: same bat time, same bat channel.
47:40
Speaker1: Share the show with a friend and check out our website. between now and then.
47:45
Speaker1: Everychurchflourishing.com. Good day to you and Godspeed.