Latest / Trillions / Wall Street’s Plan to Make Sports an Investable Asset

Transcript

Wall Street’s Plan to Make Sports an Investable Asset · Trillions

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Apollo Sports Capital recently produced a report saying sports is
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: a $ 2. 5 trillion market. Our own research, we think there's
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: about $ 650 billion per annum invested into sports across ticketing,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: media rights, merch. We're speaking to every league. Every league
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: that you can think of. The subset for us globally
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: is probably about 15 leagues.
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Trillions. I'm Eric Balchunas.
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: And Joel Weber, who normally does this intro, is out
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: this week. He's at a wedding. So I'm going to
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: basically run point this episode. But I have a great
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: co-pilot in Vildana Hyrek from Bloomberg News. Hi, Vildana.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Hi.
• 0:50
  Speaker 5: Thanks so much for having me.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Good to have you here. This is a great topic
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: for both of us.
• 0:55
  Speaker 5: For both of us.
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: I've been wanting to cover this for a while. Vildana
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: and I look at all the new filings with... And
• 1:02
  Speaker 4: we love looking at what the industry is coming up with.
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: And over the last two months, we've seen a bunch
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: of filings for sports teams ETFs. For example, like an
• 1:11
  Speaker 4: ETF for the Philadelphia Flyers, an ETF for baseball. So
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: it would be like the New York Mets. And there's
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: been multiple issuers filing for all of these different sports
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: teams ETFs, including leveraged. And this is really a new
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: potential world opening up here. Some people are skeptical. But
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: we wanted to talk to the people who are behind this.
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: The ETFs aren't out yet, but the index makers, they're
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: called Future Sports.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: And what do you make of this?
• 1:40
  Speaker 6: I think it's really exciting wherever there is white space
• 1:44
  Speaker 6: within the ETF world. We have so many ETFs already.
• 1:48
  Speaker 6: And anytime that somebody comes up with a new way
• 1:53
  Speaker 6: to put something into the ETF wrapper, an innovative way,
• 1:56
  Speaker 6: so to say, I do think it's worth paying attention
• 1:59
  Speaker 6: to because then each time it's a test case of
• 2:03
  Speaker 6: whether or not it takes, whether or not people are
• 2:05
  Speaker 6: interested in it, whether or not they actually put their
• 2:08
  Speaker 6: money towards it.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I tell people all the time, this is capitalism
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: in action. There's so many flows going into ETFs. Of course,
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: you're going to have people trying things. In this case,
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: it's almost like they invented new white space because I
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: wasn't thinking about sports and investing, but they're going to
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: make their case. And so I am joined, let me see,
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: We are joined today by Lee Tailforth, who is co-founder
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: of Future Sports, and Jody Gunsberg, who is head of
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: index services. Lee and Jody are here with us in
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: the studio. This week on Trillions, sports ETFs. All right,
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: let's just jump right in. I want to start with you, Lee.
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: You're one of the co-founders.
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: How do you come up with this idea and why?
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: So it's myself and a co-founder guy that I'm good
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: mates with, both ex-traders, 20 plus years in derivatives trading.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: We were coming out of COVID and I guess the
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: best way to describe it was we were probably bored.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: We'd had a black swan style event with COVID. We
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: thought that the financial markets didn't kind of behave like
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: they would have or didn't move in equilibrium. We had
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: central banks and central governments getting their hands involved and
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: making sure the markets kind of stayed at a certain level.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: We decided it was time for a change for us.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: So we started tooling around with some ideas. We were
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: living in different states, so we were throwing around ideas
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: on WhatsApp and we realized pretty quickly that about 90%
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: of that conversation was around sports and sporting events and
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: sporting statistics. So ultimately we decided we should do something
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: that we're passionate about. It just so happened that it
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: was non-correlated as well. So you're not going to have
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: that interference. So we started mucking around with an index methodology.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: We both know the index space well. We've traded indexes
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: throughout our career. The thing that we decided to index
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: was sporting statistics. There's a really deep data pool there
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: of stats. So the challenge for us was to work
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: out which statistics we included in the index methodology, how
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: we weighted them. At the time, we were traveling to
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: the US to see whether this would pass muster. So
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: we were meeting with the CFTC. We were meeting with
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: professional sporting leagues. We were basically doing two weeks at
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: a time and just turbo flying around everywhere that we
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: could over here. A lot of time was spent with
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: industry as well, diving into the concept around risk in sports.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: It jumped off the page at us about how much
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: risk there was and how hard that is to hedge.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: A lot of these groups were just having to live
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: with downside in their investments and their capital at risk
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: in sports. So it makes a lot of sense to
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: create a measurement instrument, which we're doing with the indexes,
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: that tracks performance in sports. These groups that are investing
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: in sports, be it media rights, be it stadium owner operators,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: ancillary businesses, patch sponsors, other kinds of endorsers, They're all
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: tracking performance. So us creating something underlying there that had
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: utility was really appealing for us, as well as the
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: opportunity to create something novel.
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: So just to go over that a little bit, your
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: main audience, at least at first, would be people who
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: are invested in sports but need to hedge. Say, I
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: know you're running an airline company. Maybe you buy Oil
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: Futures because it hedges the gas movements or something like that.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: Is it similar to what you're talking about here?
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Very similar.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 5:12
  Speaker 7: Okay.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: It seems like.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: They're designed for the sort of calci polymarket audience, but
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: that is interesting in that it's for people who are
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: invested in sports.
• 5:21
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: A real misconception. So we created the indexes with institutions
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: at the heart of what we were trying to look
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: to create. We were trying to create utility for them
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: to be able to hedge these risks. We've got retail
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: groups on the cap tables. We've got Robin hood on
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: the cap table, which we're proud of. And they've been
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: a huge supporter of ours. We haven't once discussed with
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: them the index composition. We're going out and discussing that
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: with industry, making sure that the constituents or the statistical
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: categories that we capture and measure within our index methodology
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: reflect real-world capital investments in sports.
• 5:54
  Speaker 6: And so, Jodi, just to talk a little bit more
• 5:57
  Speaker 6: about the index composition, what does that look like? What
• 6:00
  Speaker 6: do you include? I know you guys have a lot
• 6:02
  Speaker 6: of statistics that you're incorporating, but how does it track
• 6:09
  Speaker 6: Each team, you know, does it move up and down
• 6:10
  Speaker 6: during a game, for example, if it's during market hours?
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: Or how specifically does it work?
• 6:15
  Speaker 7: So the team indexes are really designed to measure the
• 6:18
  Speaker 7: performance throughout the game and the season. And every stat
• 6:22
  Speaker 7: that's provided from the league has a fixed value that
• 6:27
  Speaker 7: is in a publicly published table, right? And in hockey,
• 6:32
  Speaker 7: there's 53 different stats that go into it. One of
• 6:35
  Speaker 7: them is a win in baseball. There are 70 different stats.
• 6:39
  Speaker 7: And what we do is we follow a rule book
• 6:42
  Speaker 7: that takes these stats and puts them into an index level.
• 6:46
  Speaker 7: That's one number that can act as a benchmark or
• 6:49
  Speaker 7: a reference for the industry. And the way that the
• 6:52
  Speaker 7: stats point values were developed were by looking at 10
• 6:56
  Speaker 7: years of history and the rarity and how much a
• 7:00
  Speaker 7: stat influences the game and the performance is what determined
• 7:05
  Speaker 7: what the point values were.
• 7:07
  Speaker 6: Okay, and just to follow up with that, so let's
• 7:10
  Speaker 6: say I'm watching the Sabres game. The index wouldn't be
• 7:15
  Speaker 6: moving after hours, right?
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: Or when could I see it moving up?
• 7:18
  Speaker 6: Is it the next morning if they win that the
• 7:20
  Speaker 6: index rises? Is there a potential for them to lose
• 7:24
  Speaker 6: and the index still rises? Like what are the different
• 7:27
  Speaker 6: scenarios that maybe a retail investor could wrap their mind around?
• 7:31
  Speaker 7: Yeah, the indexes are calculated throughout the games as the
• 7:34
  Speaker 7: stats are coming in. And the official value is published
• 7:39
  Speaker 7: at 9 a.m. Central Time. So that's the official close.
• 7:42
  Speaker 7: And then they've got, you know, any of the values
• 7:47
  Speaker 7: people can look. and see what stats, what they expect
• 7:51
  Speaker 7: and what they can do with that is they can
• 7:54
  Speaker 7: take the current index level and then what's their expectation
• 7:56
  Speaker 7: of the accumulated points either throughout the game or until
• 7:59
  Speaker 7: a contract expires. So part of that value is already
• 8:03
  Speaker 7: on the board and the rest is just expectation and
• 8:06
  Speaker 7: there's calculators that they can use or they can put
• 8:10
  Speaker 7: in their own expectations to really decide whether the value
• 8:13
  Speaker 7: of a contract is undervalued or overvalued.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: Let's talk about that a little bit.
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: I'm looking at baseball just because I know baseball better
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: than hockey, but like a single is worth 2.5, double 3.5,
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: triple 4.5, home run six. If you strike out, it's
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: a negative one and on and on. Those are like
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: intra game stats. And then there's like milestone stats. Like
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: if you have a four plus home run game, you
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: get 12.5 points. So there's, I could go on and on. There's,
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: it's all in this like PDF you have. This is
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: interesting because, All that happens, right? So those stats would,
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: in fact, impact the index pricing that you calculate. But
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: then the futures are based on the index, and that
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: could deviate a little, you're saying, so that if a
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: team is on a good run, the futures might trade
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: higher in the future and almost have, I guess, like contango?
• 9:04
  Speaker 6: And addendum, what if there's an injury, or does it
• 9:09
  Speaker 6: calculate for that?
• 9:11
  Speaker 7: The injury is not a statistic in the table. To
• 9:15
  Speaker 7: the extent that anybody expects an injury to impact any
• 9:19
  Speaker 7: of the stats that are in the table, they can
• 9:22
  Speaker 7: incorporate that in their expected value of the contract through
• 9:27
  Speaker 7: the season or at expiration. The fair value is just
• 9:32
  Speaker 7: the index value currently plus the expectation, right? So all
• 9:36
  Speaker 7: of these stats that you're seeing.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:38
  Speaker 7: They all have values. So as a spectator, a business owner,
• 9:44
  Speaker 7: an investor, whoever you are, you can look at this
• 9:48
  Speaker 7: table and be like, this is what I expect to happen.
• 9:51
  Speaker 7: And you can add it up yourself because it gives
• 9:54
  Speaker 7: you all the values. And then you can say, all right,
• 9:57
  Speaker 7: this is what I think is going to happen. And
• 9:59
  Speaker 7: this is where the market says the price is based
• 10:02
  Speaker 7: on the fair value. So is it higher or lower?
• 10:04
  Speaker 7: And then you can take your position on that.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: Is it normally trading near the fair value?
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: Have you had experience?
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: I mean, I know they're brand new, but we're a team,
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: yet the expectations make the price higher than the fair value?
• 10:18
  Speaker 7: So the closer you get to the expiration or the
• 10:21
  Speaker 7: end of the season, the closer your futures price is
• 10:25
  Speaker 7: going to be to your spot price. Because remember, part
• 10:28
  Speaker 7: of it is already on the board and the rest
• 10:31
  Speaker 7: is expectation. So as you get closer to expiration, there's
• 10:35
  Speaker 7: not as much expectation left because most of it's already
• 10:39
  Speaker 7: on the board.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: So you could buy one of these.
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: And if the expectations that this like, for example, this
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: is not baseball, but the Jets.
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: Okay.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: Everybody expects them to lose every game.
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: So you'd have the futures trading at a lower than
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: the fair value. If they start winning, then it could
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: go the other way quickly. And the futures could even
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: rise faster than the stats themselves.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: The futures will be the market's expectation of where the
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: contract will fix. So there's, I don't want to speak
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: for CME, but there'll be three lengths and this is
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: sport dependent. So you're talking about football sports where there's
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: only one game per week. We'll not have future weekly futures.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: But for hockey and baseball, there are weekly futures, monthly futures,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: and you can think of it as an annual or
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: seasonal future. So the market's expectation, the Sabres are not
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: a bad example. I don't have the indexes in front
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: of me, but I believe they are something like the
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: fourth lowest out of the 32 teams this year, their
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: index price.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Opportunity.
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: I wish the people could see my face.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: I know, it's a sad face. But the futures would potentially,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know where they're trading and I don't have
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: an order book in front of me, but they could
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: be trading higher than where the index value is right
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: now if the anticipation is that the Sabres pick it
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: up and turn their season around. They finished, obviously had
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: a really good year last year.
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: What's the dispersion if there's 30-something teams in a league? Again,
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: we'll go back to baseball just because, again, I can
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: use names better.
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: But who won the World Series? Oh, no, we're in
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: the playoffs.
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: Okay, well, let's just say the Yankees are out, but
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: there's 30-something teams. If I bet on all of them
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: at the beginning of the year, what's the dispersion typically?
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: What would the best team return and what did the
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: worst team return? I'm curious of how much volatility or
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: reward there is for the risk.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I might throw to Jody for the second part
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: of that, but I had a look this morning and
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: out of the 32 baseball teams, 17 of them are
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: up on the year. So they have risen above the
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: seven and a half thousand point index starting value. The
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: number for hockey is up 17 as well. So Jodi,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: you can throw to like how far the highest performing
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: teams and the lowest performing teams have traditionally traded. It's
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: obviously different year to year. So we'll give you some
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: guidelines of what it's looked like.
• 12:54
  Speaker 7: Yeah, generally. So the rules state that the index levels
• 12:59
  Speaker 7: start at 7,500. And the best performing teams end up
• 13:04
  Speaker 7: in the 11,000 to 14,000 point range. And the worst
• 13:09
  Speaker 7: teams end up in the 2,000 to 5,000 point range.
• 13:13
  Speaker 7: And generally in the games, about 50 points get added.
• 13:18
  Speaker 7: It can go higher or lower depending on what's happening
• 13:22
  Speaker 7: in that game. But there's quite a bit of opportunity
• 13:25
  Speaker 7: for dispersion there.
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: Like if you pick the right team, let's say you
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: pick the Seattle Seahawks. I'm mixing sports here, but my
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: brain is just so, yeah, we're in football season. If
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: you pick the Seattle Seahawks last year, you probably made
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: a hundred percent. If you pick the.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: Who was the worst team? Not the Giants or the Panthers, some,
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: you know, whatever. One of those teams, you.
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: Probably lost 80%. That's 180% dispersion. That's about what thematic
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: ETFs are based on the numbers you just gave me.
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: That makes sense because we were curious how much these
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: could actually pay off. And that seems pretty good. Now,
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: if you bet on a game right now, tonight, I
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: don't know who's playing, but if you bet $ 10, it's 100%
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: up or down after the game's over. So this doesn't
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: give that quite a hit. It's more like taking the
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: concept of an index and applying it to sports betting
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: in a way. I'm talking about for people who just
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: want to trade these, not the stadium owners who want
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: to hedge.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: But is that the.
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: Idea here is that it's a little kinder, friendlier version
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: of betting on sports where you are to binary bet?
• 14:43
  Speaker 7: It's not. In fact, if you look at the table,
• 14:46
  Speaker 7: the winner loss isn't even on there in baseball because
• 14:50
  Speaker 7: the runs add up. Yeah. So you'd be double counting
• 14:53
  Speaker 7: if that were the case. So it's really very different
• 14:58
  Speaker 7: than a bet because a bet is binary. You win
• 15:00
  Speaker 7: or lose. And in this case, the index is calculating
• 15:04
  Speaker 7: and accumulating points throughout the season. So it's not a
• 15:09
  Speaker 7: win or lose. And you can actually be the losing
• 15:11
  Speaker 7: team and come out ahead for the night.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: I can kind of go back to the conception of
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: these indexes. They're born out of institutional financial market backgrounds.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: There's very few products. Obviously, we've got a lot of
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: stuff happening within the prediction market space at the moment.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: But when we created this concept four years ago, there's
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: very little within traditional financial markets of this trading around
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: binary outcomes. So it's continuously priced, continuously measured, and there
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: is a way to track that price across the time continuum.
• 15:39
  Speaker 6: But Lee, can you actually talk a bit more about
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: what you were saying about the need for hedging? So
• 15:45
  Speaker 6: presumably you were in conversation with institutions. Feel free to
• 15:49
  Speaker 6: name names here and what that would look like because
• 15:52
  Speaker 6: I think there's an obvious comparison for a lot of
• 15:57
  Speaker 6: people just maybe not knowing all of the details to
• 15:59
  Speaker 6: prediction markets or hedging. to the idea that on Kalshi
• 16:04
  Speaker 6: you can also, one of the arguments that Kalshi makes
• 16:07
  Speaker 6: for itself is that you can use various bets on
• 16:09
  Speaker 6: Kalshi to hedge for various outcomes. I think there's that
• 16:13
  Speaker 6: now famous example of the ice cream shop in LA
• 16:15
  Speaker 6: that's hedging whenever it's supposed to rain and so they're
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: making money off of that. But that's one example and
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: I think the examples are kind of few and far between.
• 16:26
  Speaker 6: And so tell us a bit more about the institutional
• 16:30
  Speaker 6: side of this conversation, who would be hedging how, you know,
• 16:35
  Speaker 6: and what the volumes.
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: Might look like?
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: We won't get into guessing volumes, but I can share
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: a couple of interesting stories with you. So a bit
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: over a year ago, we went and met with one
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: of the major TV broadcasters who had said their worst
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: case scenario was the Blue Jays making the World Series.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: They lost the Canadian media rights to Rogers, right? So
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: it's a substantial or material drop in their advertising revenue.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: That's hedgeable. We've met with another network who said every
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: game that a seven-game playoff series doesn't go through to
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: the seven, they leave $ 50 million on the table in
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: lost advertising revenue.
• 17:09
  Speaker 6: But then it's hedgeable, right? But will they actually act
• 17:13
  Speaker 6: on it? So if it's NBC, for example, does Comcast
• 17:16
  Speaker 6: go and buy those?
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Respectively, yeah, we hope so. Creating a benchmark, this is
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: not a play that is a two-year play and we'll
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: see what happens if there's a change in government or
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: anything like that. We're trying to create a 50-year business here,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: like creating a benchmark and something that the industry understands
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: and can price their risk out is something that's going
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: to see across a long time. So that's what we're
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: trying to create here. We think that accumulation indexes or
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: something that is continuously priced is the best way to hedge.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: We don't think that a binary market is the best
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: way to hedge. We don't think that groups that have
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: capital at risk in sports really care about who wins
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: tonight's game, right? So we think that these groups being
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: able to hedge in the way that they do across
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: other asset classes with behaviors like movements in the index
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: from a volatility perspective, from a range perspective that institutional
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: traders are used to, we think they will use that
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: as a hedge. We've only launched two weeks ago. We
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: launched Hockey Futures via CME two weeks ago, so we
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: can't answer the question yet about whether they're there. Our
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: concept is build it, and we think that they will come.
• 18:21
  Speaker 7: I might add to that, too, that The playbook for
• 18:24
  Speaker 7: bringing new asset classes is now pretty well established. I
• 18:29
  Speaker 7: think as the data and the technology developed, we've followed
• 18:34
  Speaker 7: a certain method in the industry that was done for stocks.
• 18:41
  Speaker 7: Like in the 1800s when the Dow was started, just
• 18:48
  Speaker 7: get your transportation stocks for the Wall Street Journal predecessor print.
• 18:52
  Speaker 7: And then it took until, what, probably the 30s to
• 18:57
  Speaker 7: get another sector. And then probably nothing was tradable until
• 19:03
  Speaker 7: Vanguard's fund in 1976. And that sat empty for years
• 19:10
  Speaker 7: until the derivatives markets came, until you had the options
• 19:14
  Speaker 7: and the futures in 82 and 83. And then everything
• 19:16
  Speaker 7: started trading. And then the ETFs came in the 90s.
• 19:19
  Speaker 7: And then you had the sector. So, you know, that
• 19:22
  Speaker 7: process of knowing, collecting data, creating an index that's a
• 19:27
  Speaker 7: reference and a benchmark, and then getting product and a
• 19:31
  Speaker 7: combination of funds and derivatives in order to manage that risk.
• 19:37
  Speaker 7: It takes all of that in order to bring it
• 19:39
  Speaker 7: to the market. But now we can do it so
• 19:40
  Speaker 7: much faster than we used to do with equities. And
• 19:43
  Speaker 7: we've seen commodities, we've seen hedge funds, we saw crypto,
• 19:47
  Speaker 7: and now it's sports. So it's the same thing again.
• 19:50
  Speaker 7: And that's what I would expect us to come and
• 19:53
  Speaker 7: serve the market in the same ways that the other
• 19:55
  Speaker 7: assets did.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: And without avoiding your question about volumes, we can talk
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: about the size of the market. So Apollo Sports Capital
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: recently produced a report saying sports is a $ 2. 5 trillion market.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Our own research, we think there's about $ 650 billion per
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: annum invested into sports across ticketing, media rights, merch, sponsorships.
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: Half of that is me buying bills.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: That's you with all your merch material part of the market.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: Hey, stop trying to make the bills happen, okay?
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: The bills are happening.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: By the way, I can see the bills being really
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: one of the better teams, even if they get bounced
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: in the second round every year, because their stats are
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: really good. They're really good for their record and their
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: playoff bounce. Does that mean the Bills could be like
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: the second best performing team, even if they get bounced
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: in the second round?
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: Well, you don't have NFL, right, yet.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: We don't yet.
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: So that is another question of mine.
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: That's the holy grail.
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: That is the holy grail. Clearly, it keeps coming up.
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: It's America, you know.
• 20:52
  Speaker 6: But I am curious, like, so when you guys are
• 20:54
  Speaker 6: putting your executive teams together, it seems like there's the
• 20:58
  Speaker 6: derivatives background, the index background, but also you have to
• 21:01
  Speaker 6: like sports, yes? Plus, then when you're approaching the various teams,
• 21:05
  Speaker 6: you have the MLB. And the NHL, how does that work? Like,
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: are you in talks with the NFL? When do you
• 21:12
  Speaker 6: hope to have the Holy Grail, as Eric says?
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll take the first question first. Liking sports
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: is probably an understatement. We're all pretty obsessed. So to
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: an unhealthy level sometimes. So yes, everybody loves sports. We're
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: looking to combine a love of sports and a background
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: in markets. And to use a sports analogy, we're looking
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: for all-stars here, people who are known within their individual
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: part of the business. So we've got guys on our
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: team who have done really deep work within sports data.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: For example, our CTO's company got bought by Sport Radar
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: when they're entering the States. So we've got a number
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: of people like this across the team. We're passionate about
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: the team and bringing the right people to the table.
• 21:51
  Speaker 6: Presumably you have some pre-existing relationships where you can go
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: to the MLB or... I noticed you dodged my question
• 21:57
  Speaker 6: about the NFL.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll get there. We had no relationships coming
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: over here, to be honest. So myself and my co-founder, Rhett,
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: were coming from Australia. We've got capital markets backgrounds, so
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: we have a lot of relationships within that space. We
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: basically asked, begged, and groveled our way to introductions with leagues.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: The first league we met out here was the NBA,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: who introduced us to the MLB. We met all of
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: the leagues via introduction. So it's been legwork and hard
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: work and jumping on planes and being willing to sit down.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: We've invested a huge amount of time. Like we've been
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: engaged with the leagues for four years to explain to
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: them what's an index, what a derivative is, what is
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: exchange trading. They've gotten very smart very quickly and ultimately
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: become partners. So we've worked hard and we've educated and
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: we've been patient. We've made sure that we haven't done
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: what other groups have done and jumped before the league
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: partnerships are in place. That's been important to us. And again,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: speaking to what we hope is the longevity of this
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: business and Being patient, we hope, sets us up for
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: very long-term relationships with these leagues. We're speaking to every league,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: every league that you can think of. The subset for
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: us globally is probably about 15 leagues. We are not
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: looking to start indexes in synchronized swimming, for example, not
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: to throw shade. I think you're throwing shade. I love
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: synchronized swimming. I watch the Olympics.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: Don't do pickleball. Please don't do pickleball.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: Why?
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: It's just … The noise, just stick to tennis.
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: You're really setting yourself up for a lot of Twitter hate.
• 23:25
  Speaker 7: I know.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: For a lot of stuff. But you would do individual
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: sports too, like tennis and golf?
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: We will.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: We have met the ATP. We've met the PGA. We
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: know both those groups well. We can build out indexes
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: on athletes. This will never be a product. We will
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: never build indexes or tradable indexes on athletes who sit
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: at the end of the bench. integrity is the number
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: one concern here for us, for the leagues, for the CME,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: and for the FCMs that trade on CME. So we
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: will be looking to measure performance of top athletes only
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: if and when we do go down that path.
• 23:59
  Speaker 7: Wow.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: So I'm going to buy the Carlos Alcaraz ETF, I think.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: I'll Can I do that this time next year?
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: Well, I was just thinking if you have a Bills index,
• 24:19
  Speaker 6: you'd also maybe have a Josh Allen specific index because
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: he clearly is the best quarterback in the league.
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, the Bills, I root for them.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Don't worry.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: This could be their year. They're just something.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: They lack the clutch gene, which is going to show
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: up here because I'm noticing if you win the World Series,
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: you get 750 points, which is like, That's a combination
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: of a lot.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Of other stats. Like, that's really big.
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: You don't need to do March Madness, and each win
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: gets bigger and bigger points. And the person who picks
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: the actual, the points are so big that the people
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: leading at the beginning of the tournament are never the
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: people at the end.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: Seems like there's a similar phenomenon here. And there should be.
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: Winning a championship's really hard. I just think the bills are, they're.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: Due, but I wouldn't.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't. I would bet on them in the right,
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: here's what I would do. I'd buy the bills and
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: then rate the playoffs.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: I would sell them. They're so good in the regular season.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: That would be my move.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: But anyway, you're going to go down with the ship.
• 25:19
  Speaker 6: To sort of synthesize all of this. So we have
• 25:21
  Speaker 6: the indexes for those two major athletic leagues, I guess,
• 25:27
  Speaker 6: possibly more to come. But then a number of ETF issuers,
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: because this is an ETF show after all, have filed
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: to use your indexes to put out maybe sometime soon,
• 25:38
  Speaker 6: a number of exchange traded funds, right? And so there's
• 25:43
  Speaker 6: a lot of questions actually around this, like who would
• 25:45
  Speaker 6: be market making for you? Like who have you talked
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: to or signed up already? Or who the target audience is?
• 25:52
  Speaker 6: Because in my mind, it is retail, even if you
• 25:55
  Speaker 6: have had discussions with institutions about how they might.
• 25:58
  Speaker 5: Use this for hedging.
• 26:00
  Speaker 6: Clearly, I am a Bills fan, and everybody in Western
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: New York is a Bills fan, and maybe you're hoping
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: that all of those people eventually buy the Bills ETF.
• 26:10
  Speaker 6: There's just a lot of questions about the ETF concept
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: of this.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: I totally get that. The important thing to remember here
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: is that we are the index. We're the index administrator.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: We are the reference. The ETFs that are coming out
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: will hold futures. The futures are made available via CME.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: So those groups will hold futures. They will do different
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: things with the futures. There's a lot of interplay here
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: in the way that the ETFs will be able to work.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: They may be long only. They may be short only.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: They may be active. They may be levered. There have
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: been applications for levered. So there will be a lot
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: of different things that the futures can do. There will
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: be a lot of index concepts that we haven't brought
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: to market yet that would be able to sit within
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: an ETF wrapper. We think this is exciting for the
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: ETF space. This is somewhere where we do see retail
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: getting involved. Somebody for... For you to trade futures, you
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: have to be a sophisticated retail trader. There's a bar
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: there where any of the FCMs or brokers will need
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: to understand your trading background, source of funds, trading history.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: They need to make sure it's margined. So they need
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: to make sure that you can meet a margin call
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: if you have an out-of-the-money position. So for a retail
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: investor who doesn't trade futures or isn't comfortable or doesn't
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: have that background, an ETF provides access.
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the futures for oil ETFs, Nobody really
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: wants to trade those. But I will say that when
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: ETFs track futures, there is some roll costs involved. I
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: assume the futures are what the market makers will use.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: They'll just trade the futures. That's why I think the
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: ETF will be approved. I don't even think they have
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: to think about it because it's not that different.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: Than an oil or corn.
• 27:38
  Speaker 5: Curious which market makers, you know?
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:40
  Speaker 5: Who's signing up?
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: If you have a year and I bought USO, that's
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: the oil futures ETF.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: If oil went up 10%, actually might lose 10% because
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: of the roll costs.
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: Are there roll costs like that? And is there any
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: way to put a number on that?
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it depends what tenor of future you hold. So
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: within this space, we know that CME already have seasonal futures.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: So some ETFs may choose to hold the season future
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: and then there won't be a roll cost. Say that
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: there was tighter pricing on a weekly, which there will
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: be because there's less room that a weekly future can
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: move or an index can move over that shortened period
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: of time. then if they wanted to hold long-term, then yes,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: there would be roll costs.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: So if you have the near, we'll call it the
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: weekly futures, would be like the front week. Micro.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: That would be more sensitive to moves in that sports
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: team that week, which is the benefit there. The longer
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: ones would be less sensitive, but you would have less
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: roll costs. Yeah.
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: Is that right?
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: So if you think about how weekly, I don't want
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: to get into saying how a future will trade because we, again,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: we're the index, but if Jody has just said that
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: an index will generally put on 50 points during a game,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: which is less than a percent. There's only so much
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: that the index can move across a week. If you
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: think about, you can extrapolate out opponents and how many
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: games there are during the week. It could be between
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: two and say six for baseball versus a year. You're
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: going to have somewhere between 82 and 184 now for NHL.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: They changed this year at 162 games in the MLB
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: that trade across a season. So the indexes can move
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: a lot further across that time period.
• 29:12
  Speaker 6: But Jodie, what happens with the indexes and performance presumably
• 29:16
  Speaker 6: down the line with the ETFs when the season's over?
• 29:19
  Speaker 7: When the season is over, then the indexes stay at
• 29:25
  Speaker 7: the levels. 32 days after, say, the World Series or
• 29:29
  Speaker 7: the Stanley Cup, they reset to 7,500. And the index
• 29:32
  Speaker 7: levels stay at 7,500. The futures contracts can move based
• 29:41
  Speaker 7: on whatever expectation the market participants have due to anything
• 29:47
  Speaker 7: that they hear that they think will influence the index
• 29:51
  Speaker 7: levels in the future until expiration. So if you hear
• 29:54
  Speaker 7: about something about management changes or trades between players, You
• 29:58
  Speaker 7: can look, all right, I think that this guy moved
• 30:02
  Speaker 7: from this team to this team. He generates a lot
• 30:04
  Speaker 7: of homers. Homers are worth X in the stats table,
• 30:08
  Speaker 7: and I think that this is what it's going to add.
• 30:10
  Speaker 7: You can add that yourself. So the futures can move
• 30:12
  Speaker 7: around even if the index level is not.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a Sixers fan.
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: Obviously, the Broncoming was like earth-shattering news. I could see
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: it just going up 10% in a day even if
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: the index was flat because the expectations are the Sixers
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: will be better. You see the same thing in the
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: betting markets. All of a sudden, the Sixers' odds to
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: win the championship go from 12-1 to 6-1, just like that.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: Okay, I think I get it. Now, we've got all
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: these issuers.
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: There's four issuers per league, I think. There's LeagueShares, Roundhill, AlphaShares,
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: and then RecShares is doing this new company called Alpha
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: Sports or something, where they're only going to do this,
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: and they're going to get into all kinds of things.
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: I don't... All of this has to use these CME futures,
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: which are based on your company. So as you keep
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: getting these deals, the ETF issuers will just follow suit,
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: four or five of them will swoop in, make the ETFs,
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: and they'll just compete in the marketplace.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Is that the idea?
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: That's the idea. We will bring different index concepts to life.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: But yes, the amount of funds that are out there,
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: and I know this is giving people some heartburn, it
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: will be in the thousands, right? Long-term, potentially tens of thousands.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: if you think about other indexing companies that are out there,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: and I know the SEC has a lot on their plate.
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: My eyes almost just bulge out of my.
• 31:31
  Speaker 7: No, this is typical because if you think about what
• 31:34
  Speaker 7: happened in commodities, so the S & P GSCI, that
• 31:39
  Speaker 7: one index composite, it was 90 single indices because one
• 31:45
  Speaker 7: for every commodity, one for every sector, and then the composite,
• 31:48
  Speaker 7: and then you had a price return and excess return
• 31:50
  Speaker 7: and a total return. And then in the course of
• 31:53
  Speaker 7: about three years, we had 5,000 indices because of the
• 31:58
  Speaker 7: different strategies that were being built based on the rolling
• 32:05
  Speaker 7: or where to hold in the curve, long, short strategies,
• 32:08
  Speaker 7: dispersion strategies, you name it, a strategy for everybody. And
• 32:12
  Speaker 7: so in a set of futures contracts that are available
• 32:17
  Speaker 7: through different index combinations, it's up To anybody's imagination what
• 32:23
  Speaker 7: they can do with it.
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: Same with prediction markets. There's endless possibilities in some of
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: these new areas.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: This is one of them.
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: I think what people underrate about ETFs is that you
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: can have a ton because all they're doing is standardizing
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: all this other stuff that's a pain to get. Futures
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: are not that easy. So ETFs make everything trade like
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: an equity. Equity is the best, most.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: Convenient way to trade things. There's price transparency. It's in
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: a ticker. It's regulated.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: It's in your brokerage account like everything else. So it
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: standardizes everything, including sports. So the open question is, will
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: there be demand? How will this work? Would a bear
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: market make it less attractive because people have bigger fish
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: to fry? These are all open questions.
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: But it's, like I said, never a dull moment in
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: the ETF world.
• 33:12
  Speaker 7: As you were saying how ETFs standardize everything, that aligns
• 33:16
  Speaker 7: perfectly with the index system. strategy that we're taking in
• 33:20
  Speaker 7: standardizing sports performance. It hasn't been standardized. The data's been
• 33:25
  Speaker 7: around forever, but to be able to take that data,
• 33:29
  Speaker 7: assign these point values and a methodology, and have a
• 33:33
  Speaker 7: reference that the whole industry, whether you're a sponsor, journalist, analyst,
• 33:40
  Speaker 7: business whose revenues are tied to the sports performance, or
• 33:44
  Speaker 7: an investor who's looking for diversification because turns from the
• 33:49
  Speaker 7: field and the ice don't move the same as the market.
• 33:52
  Speaker 7: It's standardized. And that's the key. And that's what brings accessibility.
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: Thank you for tuning in to Trillions. And thank you
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: both for coming on and sharing all this with us.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: And we'll look forward to having you back.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Appreciate you guys. Thanks for having us.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Trillions. Until next time, you can
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: or wherever else you like to listen. We'd love to
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: hear from you. Hit us up. Trillions is produced by
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Magnus Hendriksen and Keshav Pandya. Amy Keene is our executive producer.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Cheryl Brumley is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts.
• 34:31
  Speaker 7: Bye.