Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / What Happens After the Horse? Neuroscience Tools for Home & Beyond | Kim Barthel & Leana Tank | EAW 54

Transcript

What Happens After the Horse? Neuroscience Tools for Home & Beyond | Kim Barthel & Leana Tank | EAW 54 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
• 0:05
  author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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  Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
• 0:12
  thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
• 0:16
  If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really helps us get this work done.
• 0:24
  As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
• 0:27
  And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
• 0:31
  equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
• 0:35
  If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
• 0:40
  com.
• 0:41
  So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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  Welcome back.
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  I have, look who I've got.
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  It's Kim Barthel, the legend.
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  And we've got the amazing Leanna Tank who is legending and appearing on podcasts
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  all over the place for, with good reason.
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  We are talking today though about an often neglected side of the equine
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  assisted thing, which is what are you doing with your client when they're
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  not on the horse or not with the horse?
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  Because in fact, an awful lot of the time they're at your
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  barn, they're not with a horse.
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  Are we optimizing that time?
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  If we understand how to optimize that time, might it make the
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  time with or on the horse better?
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  Also, what are you giving the family, the client, the kid to do when
• 1:35
  they leave your barn and go home?
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  Because much as we'd love everyone to have a horse in their living room,
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  although get a bit of a messy carpet.
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  Coming out to an equine assisted place once or twice a week, it's
• 1:47
  better than a kick in the face.
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  It will definitely get good change, but it won't get the job done.
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  The only thing that will get the job done is a sort of twenty four seven
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  system of neuroplasticity, if you like, a, a, a lifestyle of this at home.
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  So our job is not just to work with the ponies because
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  we like playing with ponies.
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  Our job is to offer a kind of more holistic service.
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  And I do feel this just doesn't really get addressed enough.
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  So we've asked the legend of neuroplasticity and movement, Kim Barthel,
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  who really understands this, particularly with autism, to come and chat to us a bit.
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  And also Leanna Tank, those of you who know her, know her work as an
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  occupational therapist in many, many walks of life, but including with
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  very extreme populations within the criminal justice system and so on.
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  And although she's a very accomplished horsewoman and absolutely has
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  an equine assisted practice, she doesn't rely solely on that.
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  We need more tools.
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  So Laz, thank you for coming on, Leanna, Kim.
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  Let's kick off.
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  Who, who wants to go first on this one?
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  Because I do, I do feel it just doesn't get talked about enough.
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  Kim Barthel: I'm actually hoping, Liana, you, you will-
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  Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
• 3:07
  ... Kim Barthel: start.
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  Leana Tank: Okay.
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  Kim Barthel: And get us going in this topic as to which direction
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  you would like to take us.
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  Leana Tank: Yeah, sure.
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  Yeah.
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  I'm really excited to be here.
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  And Kim has been such a mentor to me for a couple of years now.
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  And so I'm so grateful and have gotten so much from the way that you synthesize
• 3:29
  working with children and adults with autism and mental health conditions,
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  using the nervous system, using movement, using the senses, like tying all these
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  things in together because when I first started working in this field 10 years
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  ago, people just weren't talking about movement with mental health and autism.
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  And I was seeing all of these ways that, like, the way that people were moving and
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  the, and the ways that mental health was kind of influencing ... There was just
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  such an overlap between the people I was working with with their mental health
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  conditions and their physical conditions.
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  So you really put all those pieces together for me in a really cohesive way.
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  So that's why I'm really excited to talk to
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  Rupert Isaacson: you about this.,
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  That's why because we know Kim's too, too modest to do it.
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  Why is Kim so awesome?
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  And what did she do for you?
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  And why is it that she's traveling all over the world constantly
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  telling people like us how to do it?
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  Leanna, like, fill us in.
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  Give us, give us the bio.
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  Leana Tank: I think that, you know, so Kim is an unbelievable OT who's been
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  practicing, you know ... I, I think you started your practice with some of those
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  original, like, big names in occupational therapy like AIR Sensory Integration and
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  neurodevelopmental therapy and all of those kind of cornerstones of foundational
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  concepts that have really informed so much of where practice has gone.
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  She is an expert on, like, not ... So, so working in mental health, I
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  think that people tend to think of this mind-body disconnect, right?
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  Like, people are doing a lot of cognitive therapy, they're a lot of managing
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  thoughts, and that that is a completely separate thing from physical function and
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  and the way that people are moving and the senses and, and heal- and physical
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  health, but they're not disconnected.
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  That's completely just a very Western modern idea.
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  There absolutely is all of this overlap.
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  And Kim really brings in the neuroscience, like a deep understanding
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  of neuroscience, of the senses of also how, like, relational neuroscience,
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  so how people how relationships and development informs people's
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  nervous systems and informs people's, the way they experience the world.
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  So I think bringing all of those things together just gives a much clearer picture
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  and understanding of a lot of what I was seeing in practice, but wasn't quite
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  figuring out how it all fit together.
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  So, so yeah, so I guess where we would take it, see what I see in practice,
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  and I think what is so beautiful about occupational therapy is that I
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  don't really like that m- model of, like, I'm the therapist and I tell you
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  what to do and tell you how to heal.
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  And occupational therapist, right, right, right.
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  I will, I'll fix you, right?
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  You're broken, I'll fix you.
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  Occupational therapy is really beautiful because we're good at looking at,
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  like, what does this person love to do?
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  What are they motivated to engage in?
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  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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  Leana Tank: What is healing about that?
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  Or how can we set it up to be supportive of this person on their
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  healing journey, right, to be as, live as full a life as possible?
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  And so that's the way I've been practicing.
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  And I think that there are ways to kind of supercharge that by understanding
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  the way that bodies move through the world, the way that movement works
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  and inter- interacts with a nervous system and interacts with emotion.
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  And movement is not just your muscles moving, right?
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  Like, movement is emotional expression, it's neurological, it's a developmental,
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  it, you know, there's all of these different aspects of movement that
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  I think people don't understand.
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  So when you are working with a child or adult in whatever context, and you can
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  set up what you're doing in a little, in a more intelligent way to kind of
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  extra supercharge that activity to make it, like, more beneficial for them.
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  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
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  So I've got a question there.
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  So Kim you meet somebody like me, I'm working with horses and- mm-hmm.
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  ... various people in neuro- neurocognitive, neuropsychiatric conditions.
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  What is the, like, basic one, two, three that any of us in
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  this field really need to know?
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  Kim Barthel: Well, part of my problem with that question is the first statement,
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  you meet someone like me, because there there isn't a lot of you specifically.
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  You
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  Rupert Isaacson: mean, I, I'm, I'm, I'm completely representative of
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  the entire- Totally normal human.
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  Kim Barthel: I think not.
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  And you know, one of the key variables, of course, in the work of equine support in
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  your movement modality is the horse, which is, you know, we, we talk about task,
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  environment, and person, that they are variables, you know, the, the environment,
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  meaning the people in the environment the sensory processing in the environment
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  the nature in the environment, and then there's the horse in the environment.
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  And the relational aspect that the horse itself brings to the regulation experience
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  and the connection experience for the other is often the unappreciated variable.
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  It is so much more than a horse.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
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  Let's say, though, that most people who love horses or work with horses do
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  that, do so because they love horses.
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  That's what m- makes them go that way as opposed to something else.
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  And I think many people understand in the various equine assisted fields how
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  the horse's movement positively affects the person either on top or next to.
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  However, I think what often isn't known, because it's just not taught, is what
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  is the actual neuroscience of movement?
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  Kim Barthel: Okay.
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  Rupert Isaacson: And what are these kind of keys that if you know
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  them, you could sort of adapt to any environment to the optimal-
• 10:30
  Kim Barthel: mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
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  ... Rupert Isaacson: for the cognitive process of whoever's involved?
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  Kim Barthel: Well, first of all, sensation and motor output are interconnected and-
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  Rupert Isaacson: Can you put that in English?
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  Kim Barthel: Yes.
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  What goes into the brain-
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  Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
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  Kim Barthel: the sensations that come into the brain, and we often
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  think of sensation as sound-
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  Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
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  ... Kim Barthel: and visual, and smell-
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  Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
• 10:57
  ... Kim Barthel: and touch.
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  But there are key sensations that are body sensations that create
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  that contribute to how we move.
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  And they are the vestibular system, which is located inside your middle
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  ear that tells you whether you're upside down or right side up.
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  And they also the vestibular system orients your eyes in space
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  so that you can move through space, see in an integrated way.
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  That could be a workshop all by itself, and so you can take me there
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  if you want, but the vestibular system is our most primal sensory
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  foundation for all of our being.
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  It's fully developed in utero.
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  Okay.
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  Unless, unless-
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  Rupert Isaacson: Essentially fully developed in using-
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  Kim Barthel: Unless it isn't.
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  Unless it isn't.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 11:54
  Kim Barthel: Hmm.
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  Leana Tank: That was such ... I remember learning about the-
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  That's a key right there.
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  In one of your courses and you talking about even the connection with how
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  the vestibular system develops and the way people hold their posture.
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  So like when people are just really collapsed or there's even- mm-hmm.
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  ... some signs of, like, certain postures that people will hold.
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  So like if their neck is really forward or if their hips are at
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  a certain angle, is a sign of, of that- Oh, can we have these please?
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  I think this is like massively useful for people.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  And Kim, you can probably speak to it more intelligently, but yeah.
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  Well- I see it in the people I work with all the time.
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  Yeah.
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  Kim Barthel: Sure.
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  I mean, there's an, there's a complexity to that umbrella question in that
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  sometimes the vestibular systems is hit, I'm gonna use that word, in a
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  neurodevelopmental process, as the brain is developing in utero- Okay.
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  for a wide variety of reasons.
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  I know we're talking about autism as one example.
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  Rupert Isaacson: What are a couple of other examples just quickly?
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  Kim Barthel: Oh, we could talk about attention- Just give us one or two.
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  There's, now there's like the XP3, four gene, you know, that causes
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  this syndrome, the we have so many syndromes that are now identified-
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  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
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  Kim Barthel: that, Did you say fetal alcohol syndrome?
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  Alcohol spectrum disorder.
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  You see how those words have D's again- All
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  Rupert Isaacson: of these things can negatively affect the development
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  of the vestibular system in utero.
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  Got it.
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  Kim Barthel: Almost every developmental difference, I prefer that language,
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  will hit the vestibular system.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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  Kim Barthel: Because of the nature of the timing with which that difference
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  was unfolding in utero, it's almost always parallel to your, your ... I
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  mean, 13 weeks is when your vestibular system is already fully ready and rare
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  and to go to wire up into your body.
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  That's very, very early in, in, in the stream of gestation, as we say.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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  Kim Barthel: And, and so a lot of times epigenetic variables, meaning environment-
• 14:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 14:26
  ... Kim Barthel: and genes have a interaction that can change the switches
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  and redirect things to places that they were not intended to go- Okay.
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  ... in the developing way.
• 14:43
  Rupert Isaacson: We do understand in the equine assisted world that
• 14:46
  the vestibular system is positively affected, particularly when being
• 14:49
  on a horse for numerous reasons.
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  Balance, BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which is neuroplasticity.
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  Hopefully more and more people are understanding this.
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  However I think that when the, the people that are in the equine assisted
• 15:08
  world, if they've gone through one of the main trainings, have usually some
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  understanding about how the horse, horses movement positively affects
• 15:16
  the vestibular system of the person and can begin to, if you like, if it's
• 15:21
  over a simplification, repair damage that's been done or ameliorate, let's
• 15:26
  say something which isn't optimal.
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  However, I think what isn't understood is now what do you do when the
• 15:33
  kid gets down from the horse?
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  Now what do you do when the child goes home?
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  Now what do you do when your adult client who's there for an equine assisted
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  psychotherapy thing or a tagine thing where they're working next to a horse?
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  Now the hor- I- ... The horse is not under that person.
• 15:52
  Kim Barthel: Right.
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  Rupert Isaacson: What do we need to do now?
• 15:54
  Kim Barthel: Well, here, herein lies the challenge with that question is
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  that the vestibular system does ... If we're talking specifically about
• 16:01
  the vestibular system in this-
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  Rupert Isaacson: Let's stay on that for a bit.
• 16:04
  Yeah.
• 16:05
  Kim Barthel: There's so many things that it does.
• 16:07
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 16:08
  Kim Barthel: So you have to be very intentional about what it is that
• 16:13
  you're hoping to achieve for that particular person in front of you.
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  So, I'll just give one example.
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  A significant aspect of our whole- wholeness comes from the integration
• 16:28
  of our inner core musculature, and the inner core musculature is your diaphragm,
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  your pelvic floor, a muscle that wraps around your trunk called transverse
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  abdominis, and multifidus, which lies along your spine, and a significant
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  This is your center.
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  And it's also what we in- understand in movement science as
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  the anticipatory postural system.
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  Sometimes people would call that muscle tone, but the ability to stay
• 17:05
  up against gravity really relies on the activation of this team.
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  And the majority of the messages that are priming these muscles,
• 17:20
  so to speak, like priming a well, come from the vestibular system.
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  So if it was not developing in a, in a smooth fashion in utero,
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  then how you move right from birth is likely to look different.
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  There will be more difficulty moving against gravity, holding on and
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  staying put, being able to shift your position from one to another.
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  And this is more than simply practicing a movement.
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  This requires a set of, a flow of data from the brain that is a backdrop
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  of movement in specific directions.
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  The horse moves up and down and back and forth and side to side, which
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  gives you all this enriched, powerful data that feeds directly into these
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  muscles to give it a backdrop that it can't access as easily in stillness.
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  So in a way, I've answered your question a bit.
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  However, the inner core has two other big jobs.
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  One is interoception.
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  Can
• 18:42
  Rupert Isaacson: you
• 18:43
  Kim Barthel: explain
• 18:43
  Rupert Isaacson: what that is?
• 18:44
  Yeah.
• 18:44
  What does that mean?
• 18:44
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 18:45
  It's the internal awareness of self, that this- Go on.
• 18:49
  ... this is me and this is not me.
• 18:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Ah, I see.
• 18:53
  The separation of myself to the world.
• 18:55
  Right.
• 18:55
  Kim Barthel: Correct.
• 18:56
  And interoception provides us with all this information.
• 19:01
  Every time your diaphragm lowers down, it creates pressure inside of you, and
• 19:09
  there are millions of nerves living between your diaphragm and your pelvic
• 19:15
  floor that relate to digestion, to emotion, to embodiment, fascia, fascia,
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  which is the network of connective tissue that keeps us all together.
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  This all lives in that area most richly or in an enriched way.
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  And so if I am collapsed, that intraabdominal pressure can't happen.
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  But every single time I'm on that horse and this alignment is afforded
• 19:52
  to me in an upright balanced way, I'm going to have more access to me.
• 20:01
  Rupert Isaacson: I see.
• 20:01
  Kim Barthel: And that is huge.
• 20:04
  In addition to moving, it's like a altered state of reality for some, of separation.
• 20:15
  So many of, of my experiences with those on the spectrum is they
• 20:20
  often feel at one with the world, for better, for worse, right?
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  The wonder of that and the challenge of that.
• 20:29
  And so this set of muscles that I'm talking about supports that.
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  One more.
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  The last example here is that this is part of the regulation system of being able
• 20:45
  This whole area, which is all driven by the vestibular system is also part of
• 20:52
  how do I feel safe in myself, and how do I have access to the hardware in my body
• 21:00
  that allows me to come back to a feeling of connection such that I don't move into
• 21:10
  extremes of discomfort within myself.
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  This is really happening at once, which is why, you know, when Leanna said everything
• 21:22
  is all connected, movement and sensation and regulation and cognition- Yeah.
• 21:31
  are all integrated.
• 21:32
  So it's not just, "I'm doing movement and I'm getting better at
• 21:38
  Rupert Isaacson: movement."
• 21:39
  Yeah.
• 21:39
  Leana Tank: I love that.
• 21:40
  I, I have a good example tie-in of this.
• 21:45
  Do you have something, Rupert?
• 21:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, what I want you to do is can you, in the course of that,
• 21:51
  also say as an equine practitioner, how you integrate what Kim just said
• 21:57
  to when the person is not on the hos-
• 22:00
  Leana Tank: Ex- exactly.
• 22:01
  That's exactly what I was going to, because that is such a beautiful example
• 22:07
  of that overlap between movement and that mental health because in the work
• 22:13
  that I do with people with serious mental illness, it is all about,
• 22:18
  are they connected to themselves?
• 22:20
  Are they aware of their emotions?
• 22:22
  Do they have that self-awareness?
• 22:26
  And I I, I remember working with a young man who came to- in that total collapse.
• 22:34
  So you talk about a vestibular system that's in collapse, and he, he came from
• 22:39
  the psychiatric hospital and he came from very challenging circumstances, had
• 22:44
  done some very terrible things and he was just totally withdrawn within himself,
• 22:50
  totally collapsed, eyes down, would barely engage low IQ, some developmental,
• 22:56
  probably some fetal alcohol, you know, developmental changes differences.
• 23:02
  And, you know, also with the folks that I'm working with, you
• 23:05
  can't just say, "Do this thing."
• 23:08
  Like, you, you have to embed the movement into what they're motivated to do.
• 23:12
  Right.
• 23:12
  Talkdown
• 23:12
  Rupert Isaacson: instruction's not gonna work.
• 23:13
  Yeah.
• 23:13
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 23:13
  You can't say, "Do this vestibular exercise with me, like, not gonna do it.
• 23:17
  " Yeah.
• 23:18
  Barely get him to make eye contact.
• 23:21
  And, but he did like to go outside.
• 23:23
  He did like to take walks.
• 23:25
  He was kind of a nature guy.
• 23:27
  So we'd go take walks and he would be eyes to the ground so that he
• 23:31
  would be, like, running into things.
• 23:35
  And so I would just make it a ga- I would kinda make it a joke, like,
• 23:39
  "Hey, you gotta look around, like, look for the trees try to take him,
• 23:43
  like, off-road a little bit so he had to challenge his balance look at the
• 23:47
  clouds, look at the birds, you know, oh, I noticed, like, you're not looking up.
• 23:50
  What ha-..."
• 23:51
  He would get dizzy when he looked up, you know, like, "What's it
• 23:53
  like for you when you look up?"
• 23:55
  He'd get dizzy because he just, his eyes weren't used, his whole system
• 23:59
  wasn't used to looking around.
• 24:01
  I would play with, like, "Oh, you know, let's walk like this.
• 24:05
  " You know, like, you know, we just, you just make it a game.
• 24:07
  And he would kind, he would enjoy that, right?
• 24:10
  If you make it a, make it kind of a fun game, and he would say,
• 24:13
  "Oh, I'm, I'm gonna go work with Leanna and practice looking up."
• 24:16
  You know, and, and he noticed that it was, it was better if he did.
• 24:20
  And over probably a summer of doing that, he wa- he was also doing tutoring, so
• 24:27
  he had a tutor come and work with him.
• 24:29
  And so she had kind of finished up in the you know, before the
• 24:32
  summer, we worked all summer.
• 24:34
  In the fall, she was like, "What did you do with him?"
• 24:38
  Like, "He is looking at me, he's engaging, he's actually,
• 24:42
  like, learning, like, we're..."
• 24:44
  And, and ever since then, he's been in the program quite a while.
• 24:47
  It's like, you know, totally different person, just nothing but progress learning
• 24:54
  to read, like, all kinds of things.
• 24:56
  So, but yeah, it was kind of that, like, initial, you know, boost
• 25:01
  to the system that got him going.
• 25:03
  So, you
• 25:04
  Rupert Isaacson: know- It's interesting.
• 25:05
  You know, during COVID I had a lot of families who were s- obviously stuck
• 25:10
  inside and or they could go outside, but it, they could, they'd have to
• 25:15
  plan it, distancy, blah, blah, blah.
• 25:17
  And we could work with some people at the barn, but for various reasons,
• 25:23
  not everybody wanted to come and, you know ... So a lot of people said,
• 25:27
  "Rupert, what can we do without you?
• 25:31
  " And first I was a bit kind of, "Well, you know, this is the neuroscience,
• 25:35
  so if you go and do these things," and then I realized, no, no, no, no, no.
• 25:38
  They needed you to say, like, "Do this and do this, and then do this.
• 25:44
  " The families, because they were really overwhelmed.
• 25:48
  It sort of didn't matter how much information you gave.
• 25:52
  And I'm a bit the same.
• 25:54
  Sometimes I'm like, "Just, Kim, just tell me about the thing, right?
• 25:58
  Let me go do that thing."
• 25:59
  So what I did was I started coming up with these exercises to do as the parent
• 26:05
  with your kid, no matter how passive the kid was, or in some cases adults as well.
• 26:10
  And what I did, I said, I said, "I want you to re- to go outside and report back
• 26:15
  to me tomorrow how many bird species you saw and I want you to get this computer
• 26:24
  app and I want you to identify five and you probably even know five, right?
• 26:31
  But just five."
• 26:33
  And then they come back and they say, "Okay, we did that.
• 26:36
  And I say, "Well, that's great.
• 26:37
  Now I want you to do five more and five trees, five types of tree.
• 26:44
  Here's this app you can have on your phone, you can click, click,
• 26:46
  click, and they'll tell you the trees if you don't know the trees."
• 26:50
  They come back.
• 26:51
  Okay, we did that.
• 26:52
  And I, I'd do this over, like, a five-day period.
• 26:54
  Then I'd, I'd add a bit each time.
• 26:56
  Then it would be animals, it would be ... I, I would ask them to look for what
• 27:00
  systems, what type of cloud is up there.
• 27:03
  And I'd give them some example.
• 27:04
  I'd give them some pointers and tips, right?
• 27:06
  And I'd lengthen the time gradually.
• 27:11
  And because this is of course what I did with my own kid, you know, when he
• 27:15
  wasn't on the horse years ago when he was nonverbal, and I watched him just sort
• 27:19
  of come more and more out of himself.
• 27:20
  And then eventually it gets to, okay, now I want to know the medicinal
• 27:24
  uses of these trees and plants that you're reporting back to me.
• 27:27
  Now I want to know the nutritional and da, da, da, da, da.
• 27:30
  Now I want you to go pick a wild salad of three of them.
• 27:34
  And what happened was people ended up basically hunting and gathering and-
• 27:39
  Kim Barthel: Interesting.
• 27:39
  Rupert Isaacson: as soon as one end, ends up in one's hunting and gathering
• 27:43
  mode, because that's the authentic human mode, it was really interesting
• 27:48
  to watch ... It wasn't just during COVID, it's been all through my life,
• 27:53
  but it's been really interesting to watch how rapid the change can be.
• 27:58
  And that sort of speaks to what you were talking about there, Leanna, where, you
• 28:01
  know, this chap comes to you in complete collapse trying this, they're trying
• 28:06
  that, they're filling him full of drugs.
• 28:08
  You go out and you off-road him a little bit in the woods, and
• 28:13
  an internal process kicks in.
• 28:15
  And then that's very interesting what you were saying, Kim, about the interoception.
• 28:21
  Is that right?
• 28:22
  Perception.
• 28:22
  Interesting.
• 28:23
  Kim Barthel: Yeah.
• 28:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Because, and then you said, this was very interesting
• 28:27
  to me they feel often at one with the world for better or for worse.
• 28:32
  And yes, so for example, if you talk to my son, who's now 25 and very articulate
• 28:38
  about his early autism experience, he would say, "There was a time when I
• 28:43
  could not tell where I began and ended, and that was in some ways ecstatic-
• 28:50
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 28:50
  ... Rupert Isaacson: and in other ways, terrifying and very confusing
• 28:54
  because, of course, I was in a place where that didn't quite fly.
• 28:58
  And I gradually, he calls it coming out of the fog.
• 29:00
  I gradually came out of the fog.
• 29:01
  Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
• 29:02
  Rupert Isaacson: However, I wonder if your inter- interoception in the
• 29:05
  vestibular system also helps people to regulate when and how they separate from
• 29:13
  the world and when, and how they merge.
• 29:18
  So for example, in hunting- mm-hmm.
• 29:21
  I'm talking about hunting with a spear and a bow.
• 29:24
  Yep.
• 29:24
  You have to merge with the animal that you're hunting.
• 29:29
  You have to learn how to become it.
• 29:32
  You have to learn to read all of the signs and tracks without really even
• 29:37
  thinking about it while moving at speed.
• 29:40
  You have to ... With plants, you make a wrong decision.
• 29:45
  You've killed your whole family.
• 29:47
  Most edible plants have a poisonous doppelganger.
• 29:50
  Animals are hunting you while you're out there doing it.
• 29:52
  You're keeping the kids safe.
• 29:54
  You need to murder the plant and merge back out and make sure everyone's safe
• 29:58
  and then merge with the plant again.
• 29:59
  And then you watch a shaman, a really good shaman.
• 30:02
  And they will of course go into trance and murder with the person with these
• 30:07
  ... But the really good ones, the really senior ones, there's actually a little
• 30:12
  scene in the horseboy movie where we're, we've just, we're just about to leave.
• 30:17
  We're saying goodbye to the reindeer shaman ghost.
• 30:21
  And he's just smoking a cigarette, chatting to us, and he's not
• 30:25
  in a ceremony or anything.
• 30:26
  He's just running his fingers up down Rowan's sign like this, which is
• 30:30
  something shamans all over the world often do, sort of pulling stuff out.
• 30:35
  And you can see him going into trance and then back to us and ... Yeah, and then
• 30:40
  you go over the mountain around the hill and then you go down there, but watch out
• 30:43
  for the thing and then and then he goes
• 30:44
  Yeah, and, and then you'll find that you have to cross the river down there
• 30:47
  because, you know, it's a little bit shallower and, you know, unless it's
• 30:50
  rained and then you have ... And then again, and you realize that this
• 30:53
  inward and outward introception and whatever the opposite of interception
• 30:58
  is extraoception, I don't know.
• 31:00
  Leana Tank: Exteroception.
• 31:01
  Kim Barthel: Well, yes, but not in the context that you're describing.
• 31:03
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 31:04
  But that this is the, the really necessary skill-
• 31:09
  Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
• 31:10
  ... Rupert Isaacson: to not just survive, but thrive.
• 31:13
  Kim Barthel: Hmm.
• 31:17
  Rupert Isaacson: I-
• 31:19
  Leana Tank: Kim has things to say.
• 31:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 31:22
  Yeah, that's, give us some thoughts on this.
• 31:25
  Kim Barthel: Well, two things.
• 31:27
  First of all, one of the people that I would love to invite you to meet is a
• 31:33
  wondrous human named doc- Gabriel Crown, Naturiza Gabriel Crown, who, that's his
• 31:40
  shaman name, and he wrote a beautiful book called The Neurobiology of Connection.
• 31:46
  And a significant degree of his writing is about hunter-gatherer
• 31:53
  ways of being and doing as a part of grounding and regulation.
• 31:59
  And, and I'm just thinking about him and what he would say, but I,
• 32:03
  I'm gonna leave him as a dangle for you to have a conversation with him
• 32:07
  separate from this conversation.
• 32:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Let's write it down and that's so that the lads
• 32:10
  listening can write this down as well.
• 32:11
  Yep.
• 32:12
  Once again, it's Narisa.
• 32:14
  Kim Barthel: Naturiza Gabriel Kram, K-R-A-M.
• 32:20
  And his wondrous book is called The Neurobiology of Connection.
• 32:26
  Rupert Isaacson: The Neurobiology of Connection.
• 32:28
  All right.
• 32:28
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 32:30
  And one of my teachers in my history, which is actually how I have known
• 32:36
  you in another realm because I was interested in horseboy and shamanic
• 32:43
  practice, because one of my mentors is Dr.
• 32:46
  Stanis Lafgrof.
• 32:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 32:48
  Kim Barthel: Who developed holotropic breathwork after studying shamanic
• 32:55
  studies diversely across our planet.
• 32:59
  Okay.
• 32:59
  And so he was my teacher for, hm, a good six years or so, as I
• 33:05
  learned to facilitate holotropic breath work sessions myself.
• 33:10
  And he often, because in the '60s and '70s, Dr.
• 33:16
  Groff was treating
• 33:20
  very untreatable diagnoses with psychotropic medications.
• 33:26
  Okay.
• 33:26
  And LS- LSD at the time.
• 33:29
  Rupert Isaacson: I'm just going to write his name down again so
• 33:30
  that people ... Graff, that's-
• 33:33
  Kim Barthel: Graf.
• 33:33
  Rupert Isaacson: What's his name again?
• 33:34
  Kim Barthel: Stanislav.
• 33:36
  Rupert Isaacson: Stanis-
• 33:37
  Kim Barthel: Neslav.
• 33:38
  Gloff.
• 33:39
  Rupert Isaacson: G-R-A-F.
• 33:41
  Kim Barthel: G-R-O-F.
• 33:42
  Rupert Isaacson: G- Groff, G-R-O-F.
• 33:44
  Yes.
• 33:44
  Okay.
• 33:46
  Kim Barthel: Holotropic breathwork.
• 33:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Horlotropic.
• 33:52
  Breath.
• 33:52
  What is holotropic mean when it's at home?
• 33:54
  Kim Barthel: Holistic, ho- again, integrating breath,
• 33:58
  rhythm, movement, and sound.
• 34:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 34:01
  And
• 34:02
  Kim Barthel: tropical- mm-hmm.
• 34:03
  Tropic is his way of, of describing it as a holistic process that's integrated.
• 34:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 34:12
  Kim Barthel: So he watched, this is in the world according to Kim's
• 34:16
  description he watched shaman look at the ingredients of what they were doing
• 34:25
  to attempt to replicate the experience of moving in and out of one's connection
• 34:35
  to self and connection to spirit.
• 34:39
  What, what were they doing?
• 34:41
  And studied the DMT molecule, which is- Diamond ultra to
• 34:47
  Rupert Isaacson: mean?
• 34:48
  Kim Barthel: Correct.
• 34:50
  And looking at some consistent ingredients across shamanic practices globally.
• 34:55
  And he found that it had to do with how they breathed, which is vestibular
• 35:01
  connected how they moved, which is vestibular connected, how they used
• 35:07
  music and sounds, which is connected to the vestibular system, and rhythmicity.
• 35:16
  And he created a process of pre-record or musical rhythmic formulas that
• 35:26
  would attempt to try and replicate what he learned in those situations
• 35:32
  to help people stay in the conduit of connection to something bigger than
• 35:38
  themselves, and to reorganize patterns of interoceptive understanding in new
• 35:46
  ways, which I think so many of our kids on the spectrum live there, and the
• 35:52
  rest of us are trying to get there.
• 35:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 35:56
  Leana Tank: I think about too, the connecting the
• 35:58
  vestibular with the shamanism.
• 36:01
  How many of those shamans spin, right?
• 36:03
  Yeah.
• 36:03
  Or the Sufi traditions.
• 36:05
  Kim Barthel: Yep.
• 36:05
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 36:05
  With the intense spinning as a way to kind of connect to the greater universe
• 36:10
  or right, right, an altered state.
• 36:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:13
  And how many of artistic kids, autistic kids spin.
• 36:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
• 36:18
  Yeah.
• 36:18
  Well, I, I- And, and, and, and do indeed play with breath.
• 36:21
  A lot of people- Yeah.
• 36:24
  They play with breath- they play with light.
• 36:26
  Leana Tank: Yes.
• 36:27
  Rupert Isaacson: They play, yeah.
• 36:28
  Leana Tank: Sound.
• 36:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:29
  Rupert Isaacson: And, and they use, and the stimming, the
• 36:31
  movement, the stims are so complex.
• 36:35
  You know, I've often, as an experiment, try to reproduce stims that I've seen.
• 36:40
  I'm not just like, I wonder if I can do that.
• 36:43
  It is rather than stop the kid doing it, which is like, I wonder if I,
• 36:47
  that ... And I, and there's no way.
• 36:49
  It's like a jazz drummer.
• 36:51
  Like it, it's, it's too intricate, it's too nuanced.
• 36:55
  So they must be when they're doing this stimming and so forth, doing their
• 37:01
  vestibular system's a lot of good, right?
• 37:04
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 37:05
  I mean, this comes back to what do I do when I'm not on, on the horse.
• 37:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Ah.
• 37:09
  Kim Barthel: So I, I just, first of all, I just remembered what holotropic means
• 37:12
  specifically, moving towards wholeness.
• 37:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 37:17
  Leana Tank: Mm.
• 37:19
  Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
• 37:19
  And so when you think about what you've just described, instead of
• 37:24
  seeing it as an aberrant behavior-
• 37:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 37:28
  Kim Barthel: I've always seen it as moving towards wholeness.
• 37:32
  It's like there's nothing here to be fixed.
• 37:36
  There's nothing broken.
• 37:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
• 37:38
  Kim Barthel: It's to be supported.
• 37:39
  And my question to any client that sits in front of me ever is, what
• 37:45
  would you like to be easier for you?
• 37:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 37:48
  Mm.
• 37:49
  Kim Barthel: Not a- you know, like, what would, what feel, what
• 37:52
  would feel more comfortable in you?
• 37:56
  And, you know, sometimes I'm asking the parent that question, but sometimes I'm
• 38:00
  able to ask the client that question, the
• 38:02
  Rupert Isaacson: kid
• 38:03
  Kim Barthel: question.
• 38:04
  And rarely do they say, "I wanna stop stimming."
• 38:08
  Like, rarely.
• 38:10
  Rupert Isaacson: It's so true.
• 38:12
  In fact I'm thinking back to an autistic man, I, young man who mentored me and he
• 38:19
  said, "It is true, Ru, that we have to learn how to blend in for our own safety,
• 38:25
  so we have to learn how, you know, when you're 6'3" and you go down around the
• 38:29
  street doing this, then people get, you know, scared and that can end badly."
• 38:33
  But-
• 38:35
  Kim Barthel: Yeah.
• 38:35
  ... Rupert Isaacson: he said one of the things that can really help
• 38:37
  with this is to have a safe space where you can go and stim out.
• 38:41
  Kim Barthel: Exactly.
• 38:42
  Rupert Isaacson: And Rowan does it, my son, you know, he'll go and do all his
• 38:47
  sound stims and flappy stims and slap his heady stims and all those things.
• 38:51
  And he needs to do that to decompress, but he also says he
• 38:54
  doesn't just do it to decompress.
• 38:56
  He does it because it's part of his self-expression- Sure.
• 39:00
  ... in the same way that I might put on funk anddunts around the
• 39:03
  kitchen while I'm cleaning dishes.
• 39:05
  Leana Tank: Yep.
• 39:06
  Rupert Isaacson: And he says it, you know, it brings him joy, but he realizes he's
• 39:09
  now, you know, six foot and big that he, if he does it on the street and freckens
• 39:13
  the horses, then people will get mad.
• 39:17
  He can put himself ... He's got empathy, he can put himself in their shoes.
• 39:20
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 39:20
  Rupert Isaacson: But he realizes the value of it, which I'm so grateful for.
• 39:25
  Leanna, when you're dealing with family situations, do you talk
• 39:29
  about the value of stimming?
• 39:33
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 39:34
  Yeah, I would say so.
• 39:35
  I mean, I, it's always the paradigm of only if it's doing harm, you know?
• 39:40
  I mean, in, in the setting where I am, there are ... Frequently, the reason
• 39:46
  that they're in our settings is because they have coping strategies or they have
• 39:51
  stims or things that they do that wind up being really harmful, you know, people
• 39:55
  who- Yeah, self-harming can be a stem.
• 39:57
  when they're upset, they've hit themselves so hard in the head- Yeah.
• 39:59
  ... that they blinded themselves.
• 40:01
  So then we're looking at how do we find alternative ways?
• 40:05
  How do we redirect that energy?
• 40:06
  How do we give them something different?
• 40:08
  And it can be really hard sometimes because they've found what works and
• 40:10
  what's easy and yeah, it can be difficult.
• 40:14
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 40:14
  And I'm just thinking beyond autism and people that, you know, cut themselves,
• 40:17
  for example, and that sort of thing.
• 40:18
  Yeah.
• 40:19
  It's, it's, it's very similar.
• 40:21
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 40:21
  I've appreciated the, have you, Kim, seen the OTs at Sensory Mod Brisbane
• 40:27
  that have the intense sensation- Ooh.
• 40:30
  ... menu.
• 40:31
  Yeah.
• 40:32
  Yeah.
• 40:32
  I've really- I felt about that.
• 40:33
  I've, I've integrated that quite a bit.
• 40:35
  So there, there's a group of OTs working in Australia and they, they
• 40:40
  will give, like, a menu of intense sensations for people to kind of try.
• 40:45
  And sometimes I'll, if they can't choose themselves, I'll kind of
• 40:48
  give people things or I'll literally go through the menu and be like
• 40:52
  a lot of them are, are taste.
• 40:53
  So, one that's been really popular is pickle juice.
• 40:57
  So- mm-hmm.
• 40:58
  ... folks that self-harm, I'll say, "Hey, let's keep some pickles in the fridge."
• 41:03
  And there's usually staff, you know, all of our programs are staffed.
• 41:06
  So I'll say, "Hey, just go ask the staff."
• 41:09
  They'll give you a little med cup of pickle juice that winds up feeling
• 41:12
  like they're getting poured a shot.
• 41:13
  And that's kind of like, I don't know, that's like a nice reframe too, instead of
• 41:18
  like go get your med or whatever, right?
• 41:20
  Go take your PRN or go take your Xanax.
• 41:24
  Rupert Isaacson: The, basically a, a small but controllable shot of cortisol
• 41:28
  effectively that retriggers the nervous system to then produce- Yeah.
• 41:36
  ... dorphin or what's going on- Don't know if it's cortisol.
• 41:39
  Shaking your head.
• 41:40
  Hold on.
• 41:40
  What, what's going on?
• 41:41
  Yeah.
• 41:42
  Kim Barthel: There's a little bit, again, one of ... Okay, before we,
• 41:46
  before I answer that question, I want to say one of the key concepts
• 41:51
  here is the need to be individualized to the person in front of you.
• 41:58
  So, a whole, just a little tiny placeholder on the pickle juice, okay?
• 42:03
  So I have an example.
• 42:04
  I had a young man who I never met in person, but I met him only online
• 42:09
  that was referred to me by Dr.
• 42:12
  Bruce Perry who is developed the neuromaturational model of trauma.
• 42:16
  And this guy had an arm's length worth of trauma and the diagnosis
• 42:22
  of autism and he never slept.
• 42:26
  He didn't sleep for, mm, he was 13 years old, more than 20
• 42:31
  minutes a night for 13 years.
• 42:33
  Rupert Isaacson: Bloody hell.
• 42:34
  How'd he survive?
• 42:34
  So
• 42:34
  Kim Barthel: that meant his mom never slept-
• 42:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 42:37
  ... Kim Barthel: more than 20 minutes a night for 13 years.
• 42:39
  So he came on to the screen-
• 42:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Can you actually survive on that?
• 42:43
  Kim Barthel: He was surviving.
• 42:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Good Lord.
• 42:47
  Kim Barthel: He came onto the screen and I watched him do
• 42:50
  this, rock his body side to side.
• 42:54
  And so I rocked my body side to side and he leaned right into
• 42:58
  the camera and he said to me,
• 43:00
  " Leana Tank: When you do that, I don't have to.
• 43:06
  Kim Barthel: And so this began my detective work with him.
• 43:12
  And so it told me that he could supplement his vestibular system with visual input.
• 43:22
  So what I'm telling you is it doesn't have to be what you do
• 43:26
  in order to get what you feel.
• 43:29
  So that, that links back to Leanna's pickle juice, that it, it, you
• 43:36
  know, the nervous system integrates sensations, and are you looking to
• 43:41
  upregulate or down regulate your system?
• 43:43
  So if I'm upregulating, it has usually a cocktail of adrenaline,
• 43:51
  of dopamine of acetylcholine, like there's a, and glutamate-
• 43:55
  Rupert Isaacson: What's acetacoline?
• 43:57
  Kim Barthel: These are all neurotransmitters.
• 44:00
  So you get a cocktail of things.
• 44:02
  Cor- cortisol is a hormone that is a stress response-
• 44:06
  Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
• 44:07
  ... Kim Barthel: where that's an outcome.
• 44:09
  But what I'm looking for when I'm trying to get something is a c-
• 44:15
  is my own individual cocktail.
• 44:18
  Like if you, you know, made me a shot, so to speak, at the bar, you would,
• 44:23
  you could make me my own cocktail that I love that's got, you know,
• 44:28
  sprinkles of different things in it.
• 44:30
  And this is what I identify as the sweet spot for each individual.
• 44:36
  And, you know, having worked with addicts and individuals who are
• 44:42
  I always wanna know what are you addicted to?
• 44:47
  Because what you are addicted to tells me about your cocktail.
• 44:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 44:52
  Kim Barthel: Okay?
• 44:53
  So i- in, in the example of my guy, rocking back and forth, his
• 44:59
  mom said, "You know, we don't have a reciprocal relationship."
• 45:02
  And I thought, "Well, you, he doesn't have any rhythm in his body."
• 45:06
  So I asked them to roll a ball back and forth and he couldn't do that.
• 45:11
  So she was asking for a skill up here, but he didn't have it in him, in him.
• 45:18
  And then I had them lean against each other and rock and she did
• 45:23
  all the work and he stood there.
• 45:26
  And then she turned to me and said, "This is reflective of our relationship.
• 45:29
  He is the recipient in her perception, and I'm doing all the serving."
• 45:36
  And I thought he doesn't have it even in his s- knowing of his body.
• 45:42
  So I suggested to them office chair therapy, and this comes back
• 45:47
  to, "What can you do at home?"
• 45:49
  I thought, like, "Do you have an office?"
• 45:50
  They were in a refugee camp, okay?
• 45:51
  So I've got the context that I'm in and they had a, an office chair that spins,
• 45:58
  and he was able to experience enough of his personal cocktail by doing some
• 46:07
  rotation that he was, for the first time, able to sleep through the night.
• 46:12
  He had enough mix ... It's like a DJ board.
• 46:15
  "I need to up regulate this chemical and I need to downregulate this chemical up
• 46:19
  and it's, it's complicated, and that's why sensory diets don't work for people.
• 46:27
  " Rupert Isaacson: What's a sensory diet?
• 46:29
  Kim Barthel: Giving you a protocol of what you should do for all
• 46:33
  people, the same protocol.
• 46:36
  If you rock, you need to rock.
• 46:38
  If you flap, you need to squeeze something in your hands.
• 46:42
  This is not how the brain works.
• 46:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 46:45
  Kim Barthel: It puts-
• 46:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, again, I mean, in a funny way, that's why horses,
• 46:48
  I suppose, and nature moving through nature require one to move in so many
• 46:52
  different novel ways that somewhere in there, you're probably gonna hit the one.
• 46:56
  Kim Barthel: You got it.
• 46:57
  Rupert Isaacson: That's good, right?
• 46:59
  Because it- You
• 46:59
  Kim Barthel: got it.
• 47:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 47:00
  It, it's interesting here I've just looked up, of course, I had to
• 47:04
  look up pickle juice on my phone.
• 47:06
  So something popped up from an OT who's on Instagram.
• 47:11
  She says," I'm very excited about the new article by my OT colleagues,
• 47:14
  Carolyn Fitzgibbon and Julio Sullivan, I think they're in Brisbane.
• 47:20
  Leana Tank: "mm-hmm.
• 47:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 47:20
  Rupert Isaacson: This article explores the use of pickle juice
• 47:23
  and other pungent foods- mm-hmm.
• 47:26
  ... as a useful grounding strategy for managing dissociative shutdown states,
• 47:31
  and they're particularly talking about by borderline here, borderline personality.
• 47:36
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 47:36
  Rupert Isaacson: Functional seizures, clinical examples are provided via
• 47:41
  vignettes, but also provided by our hypothesis and neurobiological model, the
• 47:48
  homeostatic sensory reset hypothesis as to why pickle juice and other pungent foods,
• 47:54
  which activate special sensory receptors in the gastrointestinal tract called
• 48:01
  transient receptor potential channels, comma helped, help to disrupt and
• 48:10
  alleviate disassociation shutdown states.
• 48:15
  And then there's a little list above.
• 48:18
  They've got sour lollies, pickle juice, lemons, chili, ginger, cinnamon,
• 48:27
  wasabi-
• 48:28
  Kim Barthel: Yeah.
• 48:29
  ... Rupert Isaacson: pickled veggies, mustard, mint, garlic, and
• 48:35
  tonic water, interestingly.
• 48:37
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 48:38
  Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're
• 48:40
  considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
• 48:45
  taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
• 48:49
  Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
• 48:55
  Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
• 49:02
  developed in conjunction with Dr.
• 49:04
  Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
• 49:07
  We work in the saddle with younger children.
• 49:11
  Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
• 49:17
  It works incredibly well.
• 49:18
  It's now in about 40 countries.
• 49:21
  Check it out.
• 49:22
  If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
• 49:26
  method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
• 49:30
  applied in schools, in homes.
• 49:32
  If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
• 49:37
  at home that will create neuroplasticity.
• 49:39
  when they're not with you.
• 49:41
  Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
• 49:45
  If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
• 49:48
  really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
• 49:52
  in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
• 49:56
  So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
• 50:00
  also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
• 50:04
  And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
• 50:09
  am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
• 50:12
  need, as well as Serving my clients.
• 50:15
  Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
• 50:20
  absolutely gives you this.
• 50:22
  Now, this is interesting because some of these things are clearly
• 50:27
  fermented sorts of vinegar in that.
• 50:30
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 50:31
  Yes.
• 50:31
  Rupert Isaacson: And they're talking about gastrointestinal tract.
• 50:33
  Yep.
• 50:34
  And we're talking about core-
• 50:38
  Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
• 50:38
  ... Rupert Isaacson: gastrointestinalception.
• 50:39
  Around that gastrointestinal tract.
• 50:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 50:43
  So presumably they're all related, but- Yes.
• 50:47
  ... not everybody goes off and does the sort of work we do, and when they're
• 50:51
  like that mum that you described, Kim, in the refugee camp, she's
• 50:55
  coming in without a whole bunch of information on these things- Exactly.
• 50:58
  and you have to try to give her something that's going to
• 51:01
  function i- in short order.
• 51:05
  T- what's your go- to for getting an under- getting people to have an, an
• 51:10
  understanding of how gut, core, vestibular system all fit together in a way that
• 51:17
  they could go, "Oh yeah, got that.
• 51:19
  I'll go home and do that, " rather than, "I need to take five years to do a PhD."
• 51:23
  Kim Barthel: Are, are you, are you laughing Liana at that question?
• 51:27
  Leana Tank: There's a lot to that question.
• 51:29
  Rupert Isaacson: There is.
• 51:29
  I mean, but the- You don't have that implant.
• 51:31
  For example, what I have to do, like-
• 51:33
  Kim Barthel: The reason
• 51:34
  Rupert Isaacson: that we're talking about job right is to synthesize this
• 51:36
  kind of complex stuff and make it pretty immediately graspable, at least in-
• 51:43
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 51:43
  Rupert Isaacson: overly simplified terms, and then allowing for the
• 51:46
  fact that there are nuances beyond what we're saying, but that's-
• 51:49
  Leana Tank: The other thing- Yeah.
• 51:51
  The other thing, the other aspect that I like about that framework of offering
• 51:56
  the different senses, like the pickle juice, the whatever, it also changes the
• 52:01
  relational dynamic for the people that are supporting the person, I guess in
• 52:06
  my context too, because it's not about stop that behavior, you're bad- I'm
• 52:11
  Rupert Isaacson: intrinsically lighthearted about
• 52:12
  Leana Tank: that.
• 52:12
  It's kind ... Yeah, it's like more supportive.
• 52:14
  It's like, "Hey, like- " A bit more joyful.
• 52:16
  "Let's try this.
• 52:17
  Is this gonna help you out?
• 52:18
  Here's a shot of pickle juice."
• 52:19
  You know, like it just changes- It humors.
• 52:22
  Yeah.
• 52:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 52:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 52:22
  And sometimes that alone is what the person needs is just that
• 52:28
  different relational dynamic- Right.
• 52:30
  or that feeling that they're being supported.
• 52:33
  Rupert Isaacson: But I'm still not letting you off the hook.
• 52:34
  I, I'm coming in and I don't understand- That's
• 52:37
  Leana Tank: King's question.
• 52:37
  ... Rupert Isaacson: the sibular system, gut and core and interoception, and you
• 52:41
  need to get me to understand this so that when I go home, I can implement it.
• 52:46
  You've got two minutes.
• 52:47
  Go.
• 52:49
  Kim Barthel: Hey, so first of all there's a lot more to understand
• 52:52
  about pickle juice, for example.
• 52:54
  It actually does three things.
• 52:56
  It changes your electrolytes.
• 52:58
  Mm.
• 52:59
  Because pickle juice is very high in sodium and sometimes potassium, and
• 53:05
  this changes the messages to the part of the brain that is responsible,
• 53:10
  it's called the hypothalamus.
• 53:12
  You don't need to remember that.
• 53:13
  That's responsible for regulation of the stress response.
• 53:18
  So if I am needing- Wow.
• 53:21
  ... that's one pathway that pickle juice can affect.
• 53:26
  It can immediately interrupt the stress response in, in the nature of the quality
• 53:32
  of what it is you're, you're consuming.
• 53:34
  Second of all, it's in a, it's an acidic jolt.
• 53:38
  In acetic acid this creates a subjective feeling of alertness.
• 53:46
  And so, anything that is really powerfully aesthetic in nature it, it, it stimulates
• 53:53
  a reflex of hyperactivation of all the little nerves inside the gut, okay?
• 54:01
  And what that does is send a message back up to the brain through the
• 54:05
  vagus nerve that says, "Here you are.
• 54:08
  In a, in a- The reception.
• 54:10
  ... in a mix of a millisecond.
• 54:12
  Like it's, it's an eighth of a millisecond.
• 54:15
  Got it.
• 54:15
  And, and then that here you are would stimulate back down to the
• 54:19
  body activation of muscle because they're interconnected, okay?
• 54:25
  And then also pickle juice would affect, this is the other thing that came
• 54:29
  to my brain that is so dissociation, the idea that pickle juice affects
• 54:33
  dissociation is actually very simplifi- it's not really fully accurate, okay?
• 54:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Go on.
• 54:41
  Kim Barthel: It, it, it, it really is much more individualized.
• 54:44
  So for a person that is dissociated and sensitive, this could be
• 54:50
  very bad, this combination.
• 54:54
  So that's why the individuali- very bad because you're bringing them back into a
• 55:00
  state of reality without it, it, it might not be gentle enough for them to tolerate.
• 55:07
  I've had so many clients who land back in their body from places of terror
• 55:12
  and horror that it, it's actually quite overwhelming and harmful perhaps.
• 55:21
  So blood sugar also changes glucose met- metabolism, which changes
• 55:26
  cortisol, which ... So you see, none of these things are black and white.
• 55:31
  Rupert Isaacson: No, no.
• 55:32
  I'm, I, we, we, we are absolutely accepting that nothing is black
• 55:35
  and white, which is also- Okay.
• 55:37
  when, for example, there was that little list that I saw on that Instagram
• 55:40
  thing, there's a whole bunch of things.
• 55:41
  And when you said, "Well, pickle juice for that person could be bad."
• 55:45
  Yes.
• 55:46
  And I remember that maybe something gentle and I saw cinnamon was
• 55:49
  on that list, for example.
• 55:50
  Kim Barthel: Sure.
• 55:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Which is a def- which is always been used for joy.
• 55:54
  Definitely.
• 55:55
  ... in various cultures, it's, it's a joy mechanism thing.
• 55:59
  One can read a lot about cinnamon.
• 56:01
  So- So I don't think these people are saying it's just
• 56:03
  pickle juice by any means.
• 56:05
  No.
• 56:05
  But it's more, if you were going to say to somebody, "Here is the little formula
• 56:15
  for how the vestibular system for- I
• 56:19
  Kim Barthel: think I could.
• 56:20
  the
• 56:20
  Rupert Isaacson: g- the gastrointestinal tract and interoception can be, say,
• 56:27
  what they are and how they could be optimized, and somebody's all
• 56:31
  stressed and they haven't slept and they're listening with half a brain,
• 56:33
  and you've got to give them something kind of simple to go home with now."
• 56:37
  I do think it's possible to distill some of these things into
• 56:44
  something simplified.
• 56:45
  Kim Barthel: Well, even if you sit up tall-
• 56:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 56:49
  ... Kim Barthel: with your pelvis directly underneath your ribs, see, this is not-
• 56:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
• 56:59
  ... Kim Barthel: just slouched or where my ribcage is tipped up and I'm
• 57:05
  holding my breath, those two positions would disadvantage the flow of all
• 57:13
  those things you just described.
• 57:15
  So even if I just sat on a pillow that tipped my pelvis forward and
• 57:23
  brought me, which the saddle does- Mm.
• 57:26
  I could do that at home, then I have more capacity on my own to
• 57:32
  access the hardware that I've got.
• 57:34
  That's very simple.
• 57:37
  Rupert Isaacson: My mother-in-law has a stool on wheels that
• 57:41
  is in the shape of a saddle.
• 57:42
  A saddle,
• 57:43
  Kim Barthel: yep.
• 57:43
  Rupert Isaacson: And I don't know where she got it.
• 57:45
  It's brilliant.
• 57:45
  I, I go for it as soon as I go to her house, and I wanna just sit in that
• 57:50
  thing, because it feels like a saddle, but, and move myself around, and it
• 57:54
  puts me in exactly that position.
• 57:55
  It's very interesting, too, what you just said about the slouch to overly- mm-hmm.
• 58:00
  ... tilted up ribcage.
• 58:02
  I'm just thinking back to my days as, you know, compulsory cadet at school-
• 58:06
  Leana Tank: Uh-huh.
• 58:06
  ... Rupert Isaacson: and you would be, you would go from stand
• 58:10
  easy, which was slouch to-
• 58:15
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 58:15
  ... Rupert Isaacson: to at ease, which was semi-slouch, to a tan chunk,
• 58:22
  to tilt up the roofcase like that.
• 58:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 58:24
  So it was like three really non- It's that flexion- Non-functional-
• 58:30
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 58:30
  ... Rupert Isaacson: things for the interception that you were
• 58:32
  talking about, which made me easy to control by a sergeant.
• 58:35
  Kim Barthel: Exactly.
• 58:36
  And-
• 58:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 58:37
  ... Kim Barthel: you're training sympathetic nervous system because
• 58:40
  you need to be ready for battle.
• 58:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 58:42
  Kim Barthel: So
• 58:43
  Rupert Isaacson: that- That was the point,
• 58:43
  Kim Barthel: yeah.
• 58:44
  extension is a readiness-
• 58:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 58:49
  ... Kim Barthel: to access the stress response for survival.
• 58:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Kill all be
• 58:54
  Kim Barthel: gone.
• 58:54
  So they, knowingly or unknowingly getting you ready to be a good soldier.
• 58:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 59:00
  And it's knowing.
• 59:01
  You know, it's interesting, the work that we do with the Bundesper, the
• 59:03
  German army in in, in Germany, we, we don't just work with veterans,
• 59:07
  we work with people on active duty.
• 59:09
  And the psychologist who's, who's, who's really a wonderful guy Alex
• 59:14
  Vaughn, Colonel Alex Van, who's half German, half American, so he's
• 59:18
  got this really cool understanding of, of, of both frames of mind.
• 59:22
  He himself, he's an ex- Marine, and he says, the difficulty is
• 59:25
  we are deliberately putting these people in their sympathetic nervous
• 59:33
  systems for years and years-
• 59:35
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 59:37
  Rupert Isaacson: and then we've got to try and reintegrate them into society,
• 59:42
  but it's a deliberate process because if they aren't in that thing, they
• 59:46
  sort of can't go out and do that job.
• 59:49
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 59:49
  Rupert Isaacson: And then they come home and if they do
• 59:50
  that job, they're criminals.
• 59:52
  So it's, it's, it's tough because it ... Is knowing.
• 59:56
  It's, it's a knowing piece of damage to do in order to get, to get that job done.
• 1:00:04
  Leanna, when you're dealing with
• 1:00:09
  people who are going to work with your clients when you're not there I
• 1:00:14
  presume it's very stressful for them.
• 1:00:16
  I presume that a lot of the people that work in those care homes are underpaid,
• 1:00:21
  overworked, often perhaps as trauma and abuse in their own histories or present.
• 1:00:28
  Not having a great time, perhaps view it as a bit of an us and them thing.
• 1:00:34
  Perhaps they're right because they get hit, they get-
• 1:00:37
  Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
• 1:00:38
  ... Rupert Isaacson: shit on, they get all the things that happen in those situations.
• 1:00:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:42
  So they don't like necessarily the people that they're doing.
• 1:00:45
  And you come in with all your tools.
• 1:00:47
  When you're gonna then walk out of the door, what are the tools that
• 1:00:51
  you give and what tools crucially do you see are most often taken
• 1:00:58
  up and which ones are rejected?
• 1:01:02
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 1:01:03
  Yeah.
• 1:01:03
  So I, yeah, I do quite a bit of work with the direct care staff because there's
• 1:01:07
  just one of me in all of these different programs and I can only do so much.
• 1:01:12
  And honestly, the greatest impact I can have is to give staff those tools.
• 1:01:18
  So giving them a basic understanding of how the nervous system works, you know,
• 1:01:24
  all those things kind of that basic fight, flight, freeze trying to give them some
• 1:01:30
  understanding of how the brain functions, just, just basic, basic so they have
• 1:01:36
  some empathy or understand some of the behaviors that they're seeing in people.
• 1:01:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Or perhaps some of the stress they're feeling themselves.
• 1:01:42
  Yeah.
• 1:01:42
  Leana Tank: Exactly.
• 1:01:43
  Exactly.
• 1:01:44
  And help them understand that the way that they experience stress,
• 1:01:49
  you know, a- and the things that are helpful for them are also helpful
• 1:01:52
  for the people that they work with.
• 1:01:54
  Ultimately, what comes up over and over and again because I will kind of
• 1:01:59
  give people that little crash course on the nervous system and then I'll say,
• 1:02:03
  "What makes you feel safe at work?"
• 1:02:05
  And 100% of the time, they will say, "Working with other
• 1:02:09
  staff who have my back."
• 1:02:10
  Right.
• 1:02:11
  ... working with a team of people that I can trust, that I know are gonna
• 1:02:16
  help me out if something happens.
• 1:02:17
  So that's always the number one conversation we have is how do you
• 1:02:23
  build a team that supports each other and, and feels safe with
• 1:02:26
  the team that you're working with?
• 1:02:29
  That kind of relational trust is, like, the number one thing.
• 1:02:33
  And then the other thing is, well, then I will kind of leverage that
• 1:02:36
  and be like, and that's the same for the people that you're working with.
• 1:02:40
  They wanna feel like you have their back, right?
• 1:02:42
  And that you're there to support them and that you're gonna be there
• 1:02:45
  for them when they're struggling.
• 1:02:48
  And when they're struggling, they're not just trying to give you a hard time.
• 1:02:52
  They're not being, you know, bad people, you know, they're having a hard
• 1:02:57
  time and we're here to support them.
• 1:03:00
  And the things that are really good for you are good for them too.
• 1:03:03
  So what do you like to do?
• 1:03:05
  What do you enjoy?
• 1:03:06
  Can you bring that to the people that you work with?
• 1:03:09
  Do you like art?
• 1:03:10
  Do you like ... Everybody needs to move more.
• 1:03:12
  You know, like everyone likes to go take walks.
• 1:03:15
  Do you like music?
• 1:03:16
  You know, can, you know, do things with people that make
• 1:03:20
  you feel like a community?
• 1:03:22
  So that, that'll also be the conversation.
• 1:03:24
  So those I think are the two biggest things that always come up and why-
• 1:03:28
  Rupert Isaacson: What do they take and what do they reject?
• 1:03:33
  Leana Tank: Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:03:35
  You know, it's a process.
• 1:03:36
  It's it's so hard because it, the, the system is also just really, really broken.
• 1:03:41
  It's just they're working 900 hours a week.
• 1:03:45
  Is that something that
• 1:03:46
  Rupert Isaacson: always kind of works, given those constraints?
• 1:03:50
  ... Leana Tank: Is
• 1:03:52
  Rupert Isaacson: there something that they always say, "No, sorry, can't do that?
• 1:03:54
  Leana Tank: You know, it, they, they all really connect with the idea
• 1:04:01
  of having a, a good team, you know?
• 1:04:03
  Okay.
• 1:04:03
  And, and, and working with teammates that are supportive.
• 1:04:08
  And I've seen really good teams go through very intense situations
• 1:04:14
  and come out the other side like feeling great, like, we got this.
• 1:04:18
  Feeling good about themselves, feeling strong.
• 1:04:20
  And then I've seen weak teams go through things that aren't even that big of a deal
• 1:04:23
  and they're like a mess in a shambles.
• 1:04:26
  So it's just, it seems to be really about the team.
• 1:04:31
  Kim Barthel: You know, I was teaching in a pen- in a penitentiary on Friday
• 1:04:35
  of last week, and the conversation, the name of the workshop was called
• 1:04:41
  Becoming a Behavioral Detective and no one rejected any ideas.
• 1:04:50
  So it, it was one layer after another of awareness and curiosity.
• 1:04:59
  I mean, that's what I think,
• 1:05:03
  that's what we're doing is creating curiosity.
• 1:05:08
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 1:05:08
  A- a lot of the people that work in those programs have autistic
• 1:05:13
  kids, you know, have fam- you know, they have their own trauma.
• 1:05:16
  There, a lot of times they're really connecting to the material and just- Yeah.
• 1:05:21
  interested in learning.
• 1:05:23
  Rupert Isaacson: The
• 1:05:23
  Leana Tank: reason- If they're not, they're usually overwhelmed.
• 1:05:25
  Yeah.
• 1:05:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, this is overwhelmed.
• 1:05:27
  The, the, the reason why I'm asking what do they reject is rather, rather
• 1:05:30
  like you, Kim, if, if I go and give a, a workshop, I wouldn't say anyone
• 1:05:34
  rejects anything that I bring.
• 1:05:37
  But when I'm- No.
• 1:05:38
  working, say, one-to-one with a family who say, "Okay, Rupert,
• 1:05:42
  I need, we need help right now.
• 1:05:44
  Tell us what to do.
• 1:05:45
  " And then I'll usually say, "Okay it's going to require some lifestyle changes.
• 1:05:50
  Are you willing to do the following?"
• 1:05:52
  And then it's rather interesting to me to see who takes up what.
• 1:05:56
  So for example, let's say it's a kid who, whose need for movement
• 1:06:01
  is very, very clear, and they're gonna do it whether you like it or
• 1:06:04
  not, and it's gonna drive you nuts.
• 1:06:06
  And you've come home from work and you want them to be quiet and still,
• 1:06:10
  and they're just not gonna be.
• 1:06:13
  And you also don't want them to be because it's good for them, and it's
• 1:06:16
  also not so good for you right now.
• 1:06:19
  So I will say things like, adapt your living room so
• 1:06:24
  that it is effectively a gym.
• 1:06:27
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Install swings from the ceiling, get freestanding A
• 1:06:30
  frames, get climbing frames that you can pull out from the wall and then go
• 1:06:35
  back into the wall because- You sound
• 1:06:37
  Kim Barthel: like a great OT.
• 1:06:39
  Leana Tank: I was just gonna say that, Kim.
• 1:06:41
  ... Rupert Isaacson: a wonderful OT.
• 1:06:43
  I'll say this thing.
• 1:06:43
  And then there'll be a certain number of parents who go ... And I'll say,
• 1:06:46
  "Oh, and that, and make sure you got a couch that costs, like, 300 bucks.
• 1:06:51
  The, the kids can just bounce all over and trash it.
• 1:06:53
  " And all the nice ornaments that you've got and all the nice stuff, you got, put it up
• 1:06:57
  in boxes and it can come out again later.
• 1:07:00
  But for now, for this couple of years of your life, it's, it's a
• 1:07:04
  different set of priorities and get a bunch of plants and, and change
• 1:07:09
  your light it and so on and so on.
• 1:07:11
  And I see who goes down the list of these things because I say,
• 1:07:13
  "This is just the cold, hard fact.
• 1:07:15
  If you do these things, it will be better.
• 1:07:16
  If you don't, you will probably stay where you are.
• 1:07:20
  " Then you can choose how many of these things you wanna do, and that's about how
• 1:07:25
  far along you'll get because I resisted it too, because we don't like change.
• 1:07:31
  So believe me, I went kicking and screaming, however,
• 1:07:36
  it's where my success lays.
• 1:07:37
  So I have totally empath- empathy for the fact that you want to say,
• 1:07:41
  "Rupa, I can't do those things."
• 1:07:42
  But honestly, then the only comment left to that is, "Well, then see you
• 1:07:47
  next year for the same conversation."
• 1:07:50
  But probably a little bit worse.
• 1:07:53
  And then I see the ones who, who do it a bit and they'll be
• 1:07:57
  like, "Ooh, actually, well..."
• 1:07:59
  And then it's a gradual process as they do more and more.
• 1:08:02
  There's some who, like, dive right in and go, "I see the logic.
• 1:08:05
  I'm doing it.
• 1:08:06
  " And there's some who never do.
• 1:08:07
  Yes.
• 1:08:08
  And it's really interesting.
• 1:08:11
  There was one family who were in a desperate strait two autistic kids,
• 1:08:16
  and mom got in a car accident and became effectively n- n- not great
• 1:08:26
  form of neurodivergent herself.
• 1:08:28
  Dad had a problem with all of this naturally.
• 1:08:32
  So we galvanized luckily there were grandparents.
• 1:08:34
  We galvanized the grandparents.
• 1:08:35
  And what we did is I got a grant and I actually fielded two
• 1:08:40
  full-time staff for them to live in-
• 1:08:43
  Kim Barthel: Gosh.
• 1:08:43
  ... Rupert Isaacson: free of charge.
• 1:08:45
  I went and got a philanthropist to pay for it because one of these kids
• 1:08:48
  started to eat as shit, the other one started to pull his own teeth out.
• 1:08:52
  It was really bad.
• 1:08:53
  And they, and we gave them the whole formula of what to do,
• 1:08:57
  including all the stuff in nature and movement and trampolines in
• 1:09:00
  the backyard and trampolines in the house and da, da, da, da.
• 1:09:02
  And I had my two people in there and they implemented it and the,
• 1:09:06
  it just went 180 degrees like that to, like, total functionality.
• 1:09:11
  And then the grant ran out.
• 1:09:15
  Mm.
• 1:09:15
  And I said, "It's coming now, lads, that we have to do the transition.
• 1:09:21
  You've seen the change."
• 1:09:24
  Well, of course, they didn't keep it going.
• 1:09:27
  And we even helped them to find, like, team, we even helped them to find people
• 1:09:31
  who could replace the two people that I had fielded and volunteers who were
• 1:09:38
  interested, students who were interested, and then a rotating team of those people
• 1:09:42
  so that they wouldn't get burned out.
• 1:09:43
  Like, you have to think it through.
• 1:09:45
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 1:09:45
  Rupert Isaacson: But you also have to make it attractive for those people to stay.
• 1:09:49
  Leana Tank: Uh-huh.
• 1:09:49
  Rupert Isaacson: And anyway, they, they didn't, and it fell apart.
• 1:09:53
  And then I got a call during COVID from one of the grandmas saying, "It's
• 1:09:58
  all gone back again to how it was.
• 1:10:00
  " And I said, "Well, have you implemented?"
• 1:10:02
  And they said, "Well, no."
• 1:10:05
  And I said, "Well, there's the formula again.
• 1:10:07
  I, you know, can I help you do it?
• 1:10:09
  " I said, "Well, no, it's, it's too much for us, really.
• 1:10:11
  " And I said, "Well, then why are you, why are you asking me?
• 1:10:15
  " She said, and it sort of petered out.
• 1:10:20
  So the, now that's a very extreme example, and it was very sad, but it was also very
• 1:10:26
  clear for me what worked and what didn't.
• 1:10:29
  Mm.
• 1:10:29
  Most of the people that I give these sorts of bits of advice to, as you
• 1:10:35
  say, Leanna, they're overwhelmed and they're very tired, as was I.
• 1:10:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:10:40
  But I just realized I could choose between being exhausted that way and going down
• 1:10:46
  the toilet and being exhausted that way and possibly climbing out of the toilet.
• 1:10:50
  Kim Barthel: Mm.
• 1:10:51
  Rupert Isaacson: So we're all in this same boat where we have to give tools and we
• 1:10:59
  have to sort of bring it down to things that are implementable fairly quickly,
• 1:11:07
  like let them bounce on the sofa or take them outside into the woods, right?
• 1:11:11
  Y- Kim, you know- Yes.
• 1:11:14
  ... with the knowledge that you've got, you know, people must be coming to you
• 1:11:18
  all the time with this kind of stuff.
• 1:11:20
  Kim Barthel: Mm.
• 1:11:21
  Rupert Isaacson: What are you saying?
• 1:11:22
  Kim Barthel: Well, as I listen to you, two thoughts come.
• 1:11:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:27
  Kim Barthel: One part of our, especially in my, my being very strong aspect of
• 1:11:35
  my being is my psychotherapeutic self.
• 1:11:40
  Occupational therapists, that's another part of them-
• 1:11:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:11:43
  ... Kim Barthel: is to be emotionally connected to the person that they're with.
• 1:11:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:51
  Kim Barthel: And to use what we know about, you know, we're talking about
• 1:11:55
  mental health, the people that are in front of us, and you are a parent.
• 1:12:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:12:03
  Kim Barthel: I'm a parent too, but I'm a parent in a different
• 1:12:07
  way than you're a parent.
• 1:12:08
  Yeah.
• 1:12:08
  You're a parent who has a life of lived experience-
• 1:12:14
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:12:15
  ... Kim Barthel: to share with the, which carries and, and also a
• 1:12:20
  tremendous amount of passion- Mm.
• 1:12:24
  and knowledge and success and seasoned wisdom that people come to you with a
• 1:12:33
  different, with a different mindset- Mm.
• 1:12:37
  ... than they might come to me or Liana.
• 1:12:40
  I mean, they come to us for inspiration, but you have a dif-
• 1:12:46
  you carry a different signature.
• 1:12:50
  Mm.
• 1:12:50
  And so when I have a client in front of me, I see every human as whole and
• 1:12:55
  resourceful within themselves- mm-hmm.
• 1:13:00
  as a place of we're all doing the best we can with what we have, and
• 1:13:05
  what's one thing that I can do.
• 1:13:08
  Now, the story you just told gave me a tremendous amount of overwhelmingly
• 1:13:15
  inspirational love and wonder at, at the level of generosity and desire to make
• 1:13:23
  this world such a magnificent place.
• 1:13:27
  And it's so true that we can sometimes create the affordance of
• 1:13:34
  everything and it doesn't land, right?
• 1:13:38
  That spiritual knowing that each people, each person has their own path.
• 1:13:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:13:44
  Kim Barthel: And that I'm, I'm, I'm ... I, I walk that one all the time
• 1:13:48
  with what I know and what, what I know.
• 1:13:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:13:53
  Kim Barthel: I know in my brain and with what I know with my heart
• 1:13:58
  about the people and, that I'm with.
• 1:14:02
  And so, again, you know, we're talking about, for me, inherent in my own work
• 1:14:10
  is who is the individual in front of me-
• 1:14:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:14:15
  Kim Barthel: rather than the bigger picture of because the
• 1:14:20
  bigger picture of change in the world, because I've been there too.
• 1:14:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:14:27
  Kim Barthel: In that working with systems, working in war zones, working, you know,
• 1:14:32
  with things are, that beat you down.
• 1:14:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:14:36
  Kim Barthel: And finding ways to be in alignment with what is and hopeful
• 1:14:40
  for more as my inner state of being.
• 1:14:46
  Otherwise, I couldn't travel around the world and see people in the
• 1:14:50
  magnitude of suffering that we do-
• 1:14:53
  Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
• 1:14:54
  ... Kim Barthel: and get up in the morning.
• 1:14:57
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and still want to do it.
• 1:14:58
  Kim Barthel: And still want to do it.
• 1:15:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:15:00
  Yes.
• 1:15:01
  if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
• 1:15:06
  you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
• 1:15:12
  of dressage training.
• 1:15:13
  If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
• 1:15:22
  exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
• 1:15:28
  of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
• 1:15:35
  well being of the horse and the rider.
• 1:15:38
  Intrigued?
• 1:15:38
  Like to know more?
• 1:15:40
  Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
• 1:15:45
  Check out the free introduction course.
• 1:15:47
  Take it from there.
• 1:15:48
  Kim Barthel: So I, I feel that when you talk about what you shared, you know, I
• 1:15:54
  think ... Or when Leanna is talking to a team, I don't think it's about what
• 1:15:59
  I say or the tool that I give, really.
• 1:16:04
  I could, you know, talk about acetic acid, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
• 1:16:08
  It's the feeling that makes them feel, I can do this, or I, that,
• 1:16:15
  that they leave seeing the person in front of them as a human that
• 1:16:21
  is already whole and resourceful.
• 1:16:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:16:27
  No, I get it.
• 1:16:27
  And I, I do feel that one can do both at the same time.
• 1:16:31
  I do believe that one can see that, hold that bigger picture
• 1:16:33
  and go completely individual.
• 1:16:36
  Leana Tank: Hmm.
• 1:16:37
  ... Rupert Isaacson: and you're right.
• 1:16:38
  I, I didn't weirdly enough when that story I thought I didn't have attachment.
• 1:16:42
  I didn't have attachment to them doing it, but they said, "Can you help?"
• 1:16:46
  And I said, "Okay."
• 1:16:47
  You know, so- Of course.
• 1:16:48
  ... to the best of my ability, I will do it.
• 1:16:51
  Kim Barthel: Of course.
• 1:16:52
  ... Rupert Isaacson: whether you take this on or not, I personally have learned
• 1:16:59
  by implementing it, more of what works.
• 1:17:02
  Exactly.
• 1:17:02
  So thank you for giving me this opportunity.
• 1:17:05
  The other thing too is rather like you, because I picked up from
• 1:17:08
  what you just said is optimism.
• 1:17:10
  Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:11
  Rupert Isaacson: And that, you know, as we know, there's many studies now
• 1:17:13
  in optimism, and that optimism seems to actually create good outcomes.
• 1:17:17
  And again, if you bring it down to the hunter-gatherer mentality, if you go out
• 1:17:21
  assuming you're not gonna be successful in the hunt, you probably won't be.
• 1:17:26
  If you go out not looking really for the right plants because you assume
• 1:17:30
  they're not gonna be there, you might miss that one that's just popping
• 1:17:34
  out from under the stone that could-
• 1:17:37
  Kim Barthel: Yeah.
• 1:17:37
  Rupert Isaacson: you know, sort out your granny's rheumatoid arthritis.
• 1:17:41
  So optimism is really important and I'm also optimistic that for that
• 1:17:46
  family, they might over time actually find their right outcome and that
• 1:17:51
  what we did was part of an adventure.
• 1:17:54
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 1:17:55
  Rupert Isaacson: So I can hold all that for sure.
• 1:17:57
  I don't feel any sense of disappointment in them.
• 1:17:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:59
  It's just more that when one is called to be of service and all of us who are
• 1:18:05
  in this work effectively are, we kind of wanna be as effective as we can be.
• 1:18:10
  You know, Leanna, when you're, ... There was a story that you told, and I'd
• 1:18:15
  like you to tell it about ... I'm just gonna nudge your memory, I
• 1:18:20
  think it speaks to this, having to hold all these ambiguities together,
• 1:18:26
  which is the human condition, right?
• 1:18:28
  You tell the story of walking with one of the people that you work with, and I
• 1:18:34
  think it was a student OT or something, I could be wrong, you'll correct me, when
• 1:18:38
  she said, "Well, there, you guys were talking about stuff that happens in life."
• 1:18:41
  And she said, "Oh, I think everything happens for a reason."
• 1:18:46
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:46
  Rupert Isaacson: And then said, "Can you, can you just tell us that one?"
• 1:18:51
  Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:18:52
  I, yeah, this client was really, really impactful to me, and I, I won't say too
• 1:18:58
  much about, you know, his history, but he had, came from incredibly traumatic past.
• 1:19:06
  He had
• 1:19:06
  Rupert Isaacson: committed a great trauma too.
• 1:19:08
  Leana Tank: He had committed a great trauma and was absolutely
• 1:19:10
  traumatized from what he had done.
• 1:19:12
  And through working with him over a year, doing a lot of time in
• 1:19:18
  nature, a lot of work on just being aware of who he was and getting
• 1:19:27
  connected a lot of self-acceptance.
• 1:19:29
  He had come to a place where he really accepted himself and was accepting of,
• 1:19:36
  of the things that had happened and was able to even be grateful i- grateful for
• 1:19:41
  his past and see gratitude for kinda how it had contributed to who he was today.
• 1:19:46
  And he was, he was saying some of that to me, you know, we were kind
• 1:19:49
  of wrapping up our time and I had this student with me and she actually
• 1:19:52
  didn't know the extent of his history.
• 1:19:55
  So he was expressing these kind of, like, grateful things
• 1:19:58
  and grateful for where he was.
• 1:20:01
  And she was like, "Yep, everything happens for a reason."
• 1:20:04
  And that is not the kind of thing that really I would say to, for the
• 1:20:10
  things that had happened to him.
• 1:20:11
  And I think that, you know, that- But what did he then had a
• 1:20:13
  very- ... Interesting response.
• 1:20:15
  Yeah.
• 1:20:15
  Yeah.
• 1:20:16
  Yeah.
• 1:20:16
  He- Tell
• 1:20:16
  Rupert Isaacson: me what he said
• 1:20:17
  Leana Tank: to that.
• 1:20:17
  I'm trying to remember now what he had said.
• 1:20:20
  You know, I think it, it wasn't about it wasn't about, you know, the, these things
• 1:20:25
  had happened for a reason, but he was grateful for the things that had happened
• 1:20:30
  to him and who it had made him today.
• 1:20:34
  And, and that you can ... And I think it's that, like, stoic concept of a
• 1:20:39
  more fati that is love your fate, right?
• 1:20:42
  It's like you just have to kind of come to a place where you, even the good and
• 1:20:49
  the bad, they all have built who you are and, and if you can get to a place
• 1:20:54
  where you're grateful for who you are, then it's all, you know, kinda okay.
• 1:20:58
  And so, yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:00
  And he, and he kinda expressed that in a really gentle kind way.
• 1:21:04
  And I think that's, like, healing from trauma, right?
• 1:21:07
  It's, it's where you ... It's not like it went away.
• 1:21:10
  It's not like it never happened.
• 1:21:12
  It's not, you know, it's more like it's integrated into who you are as a
• 1:21:16
  person, and then you can kind of draw from that as a strength and draw from
• 1:21:20
  that to actually share, you know, and, and share healing with other people.
• 1:21:25
  So, yeah, kind of get the alchemized like that.
• 1:21:33
  Kim Barthel: And I think that's what Rupert is talking about that you do.
• 1:21:40
  Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's, it's interesting that as you
• 1:21:44
  were talking about, Leanna, I was thinking that conversation
• 1:21:49
  happened while walking, right?
• 1:21:51
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:52
  Rupert Isaacson: That conversation happened not sitting in a room
• 1:21:55
  facing each other, sitting in chairs.
• 1:21:58
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:59
  And what was interesting was that your, the, the chap that you were working
• 1:22:03
  with who I know what he did and, you know, it, it, it's, it's toe curling.
• 1:22:12
  It's interesting that he could have that sort of discernment to say,
• 1:22:16
  "Well, actually, I dispute that everything happens for a reason."
• 1:22:21
  Things may actually not.
• 1:22:24
  However, once they've happened-
• 1:22:27
  Kim Barthel: Hmm.
• 1:22:29
  ... Rupert Isaacson: what do you do with that material?
• 1:22:31
  Kim Barthel: Exactly.
• 1:22:34
  Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting when people often ask me
• 1:22:37
  about, "Well, what causes autism?"
• 1:22:40
  And that is a dangerous road to go down for a number of reasons, but
• 1:22:48
  people can't help it naturally,
• 1:22:52
  but there's all kinds of politics and stuff associated with that question.
• 1:22:59
  And so what I'll generally say is, honestly, it doesn't matter because
• 1:23:05
  right now where we are- mm-hmm.
• 1:23:07
  ... we are dealing with a child that doesn't speak or we are
• 1:23:10
  dealing with this situation.
• 1:23:13
  So the question is, what are we going to do?
• 1:23:15
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 1:23:16
  Rupert Isaacson: What are we going to do now?
• 1:23:18
  And you had that conversation while moving and while you were relating the story,
• 1:23:24
  I was thinking, oh, yes, you move on, you take life goes on, going, moving.
• 1:23:34
  We take this thing that happened and we integrate the wisdom from it, the
• 1:23:38
  experience from it, the resources really that it can bring dramatic
• 1:23:43
  as they've been and then we go, we move on to somewhere else with that.
• 1:23:50
  That could be baggage that weighs us down.
• 1:23:52
  It might be for a while, but as we carry it longer, it's gonna make us fitter,
• 1:23:58
  stronger, and then maybe we find that there's actually something in that heavy
• 1:24:02
  pack that turns out quite useful later.
• 1:24:04
  There's my optimism again, but it does all seem to be about moving.
• 1:24:09
  Kim Barthel: Hmm.
• 1:24:10
  I, I got excited there for a second.
• 1:24:12
  Because there is a function of cognition of executive function called working
• 1:24:18
  memory, which is the past, the present and the future as a workbench where I
• 1:24:27
  take what has happened and I burring it into consciousness forward into the
• 1:24:33
  present, and then I project into the future, could this be different, you know?
• 1:24:40
  And this part of the brain that is responsible for working memory
• 1:24:46
  is loaded with vestibular input.
• 1:24:50
  And in fact, they, they've studied sway in respect to memory.
• 1:24:55
  So for example commonly what we see is if you're in the past, you shift back.
• 1:25:03
  And if you're in the future disconnected from the present, you shift into anterior
• 1:25:10
  space that this is- What does that mean?
• 1:25:12
  Ahead of yourself.
• 1:25:13
  Like
• 1:25:13
  Leana Tank: lean forward, yeah.
• 1:25:14
  Kim Barthel: Okay.
• 1:25:15
  To coming in front of yourself.
• 1:25:18
  And that ... So memory working memory is the official title of this.
• 1:25:23
  It, the, the cognition is connected to sensation.
• 1:25:28
  So what you've described is what I describe as remaking what we
• 1:25:33
  call coherence or meaning out of our experiences through movement,
• 1:25:40
  that if I am, you know- Yeah.
• 1:25:42
  stuck in the past, I need to move my physically experience movement
• 1:25:49
  going forward in order to go forward because they are connected cellularly.
• 1:25:57
  Yeah.
• 1:25:58
  Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting ... I keep saying that.
• 1:26:00
  It's interesting.
• 1:26:01
  It's interesting.
• 1:26:02
  Okay.
• 1:26:02
  So I've got to come up with another another trope.
• 1:26:05
  It's noticeable.
• 1:26:08
  It's remarkable that going back to the hunter-gatherer model,
• 1:26:15
  which is a good one because the blueprint is the authentic way to be human.
• 1:26:22
  Healing-
• 1:26:24
  Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
• 1:26:25
  ... Rupert Isaacson: that I can think of that I've ever seen
• 1:26:27
  is always done through dance.
• 1:26:31
  Leana Tank: Mm.
• 1:26:31
  Rupert Isaacson: So for example, a psychoactive plant might be involved,
• 1:26:35
  but if you're at the Kalahari and Southern Africa, they don't grow
• 1:26:38
  down there, so that it wouldn't be.
• 1:26:40
  You have to rely on rhythm and breath and such to get into the state of trance.
• 1:26:49
  And the dancers and the rhythms that I've observed,
• 1:26:54
  interestingly, are often circular.
• 1:26:56
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 1:26:56
  Rupert Isaacson: So you talked about spinning earlier but the
• 1:27:00
  bushmen would go round a fire.
• 1:27:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:27:04
  And then take diversions from there to do healings and then
• 1:27:09
  go back to round the fire.
• 1:27:11
  And when working with shamans in Mongolia with drums, it's a circular movement
• 1:27:20
  and often the swaying backwards and forwards with the circular movement
• 1:27:23
  of the, of the hands on the drum.
• 1:27:27
  123123 rhythm, usually, like a horse scalloping, because they're horse tribes-
• 1:27:32
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 1:27:33
  ... Rupert Isaacson: as well.
• 1:27:33
  And and it's like the Celtic Baran, which is effectively the same thing.
• 1:27:38
  I wonder if the thing of the spinning, you talked about sway.
• 1:27:41
  Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
• 1:27:42
  Rupert Isaacson: And then you also talked about the bloke that you
• 1:27:45
  worked with who, when you swayed, he said, "Well, then I don't have to,
• 1:27:51
  but it seemed to be a key, a way in.
• 1:27:54
  So if you were going to recommend somebody to try out some movements-
• 1:28:01
  Kim Barthel: Yeah.
• 1:28:02
  ... Rupert Isaacson: at home to see if they could spark movement in their cognition,
• 1:28:07
  movement in their life, movement in their,
• 1:28:12
  to, to, towards amelioration and, and away from suffering of whatever kind.
• 1:28:17
  What would you- I
• 1:28:19
  Kim Barthel: think- Yeah.
• 1:28:20
  I think for me, I always watch what you do first.
• 1:28:23
  What do you already do?
• 1:28:26
  'Cause it tells me how you are already looking after your nervous system.
• 1:28:33
  And if you are only using one way, you, this is exactly what you described before.
• 1:28:39
  How do I add a little bit more?
• 1:28:42
  So if I'm constantly moving side to side, that's only one
• 1:28:47
  part of the vestibular system.
• 1:28:49
  There are different parts in different directions.
• 1:28:53
  You know, can we move in a forward and backwards direction?
• 1:28:56
  Mm.
• 1:28:57
  Can we do some circular movement?
• 1:28:59
  And I always say when it works its treatment and when
• 1:29:03
  it doesn't, it's assessment.
• 1:29:05
  And what I mean by that is, what shifts do I see in the person when they do that?
• 1:29:12
  Do they look more available, alert, connected, engaged in the world?
• 1:29:19
  I'm looking for a, a shift in their ... More function, so to speak, in response
• 1:29:28
  to the stimulus that they are trying.
• 1:29:31
  Mm.
• 1:29:35
  Leana Tank: Yeah, that's exactly what I found to be the most helpful too.
• 1:29:39
  And I'll, you just have to really, really pay attention and notice, because I'll
• 1:29:42
  have people I've worked with who are, you know, they're talking to me about
• 1:29:47
  something difficult or processing, you know, a stress or something.
• 1:29:50
  And I notice, you know, they're scratching their heads.
• 1:29:52
  So I might be like, "Ooh, like, scratching your head, that looks like it's helping.
• 1:29:56
  Like, do that a little bit more."
• 1:29:57
  I've found there's some kind of foundational movements that I will
• 1:30:02
  try to work in or encourage people to do, like, pushing and pulling because
• 1:30:08
  those tend to help people process things like, like anger or frustration.
• 1:30:15
  So I might have people try different things, you know, and
• 1:30:19
  just kind of see how it feels.
• 1:30:21
  Or I have people that struggle with boundaries and so we'll try, you know,
• 1:30:26
  or, or I'll notice there's people that when they get upset, they're like
• 1:30:31
  moving the furniture around, right?
• 1:30:32
  Or dragging their mattresses off the bed and throwing it outside the house.
• 1:30:36
  So we're looking at pushing and pulling and crossing the midline too is a big one
• 1:30:41
  like that, that I like to use whenever I can, even that, that infinity symbol.
• 1:30:47
  And it's in different ways, like either we're walking it or we're ... I worked
• 1:30:52
  with one man who he had schizophrenia, but he also had a stroke and it had
• 1:30:59
  left him without the use of his hand.
• 1:31:01
  And they kind of don't really treat, you know, when, when you're ... He's
• 1:31:04
  in psychosis a lot of the time or very paranoid, so he doesn't get any therapy.
• 1:31:08
  They just don't really wanna work with him in the hospital.
• 1:31:11
  So he came back with no droopy hand.
• 1:31:13
  And so I just showed him a few things.
• 1:31:15
  I was like, "You can do this.
• 1:31:16
  And he was like, "Ooh, I could do this.
• 1:31:18
  " And then he was like making up his own things and they were all very
• 1:31:21
  intuitive and all really like, I was like, "That's a great idea.
• 1:31:25
  Like, I could do it on the wall."
• 1:31:26
  I was like, "Awesome, do that.
• 1:31:28
  " And, and he kind of came up, I gave him a start and then he came up
• 1:31:32
  with his own very midline crossing, holding his hand together thing
• 1:31:36
  and his hand just got better.
• 1:31:38
  Within like two weeks, it was, he was like, "Hey, it works again."
• 1:31:42
  So yeah, yeah.
• 1:31:44
  I think kind of having people try things that are very simple and
• 1:31:49
  basic like that, but that meet a very particular kind of nervous system,
• 1:31:54
  sensory, emotional need, and then letting them play with it and create
• 1:31:58
  their own thing is a great way to go.
• 1:32:01
  Rupert Isaacson: I know that we all know to some degree the
• 1:32:03
  answer to this question, but why is crossing the midline good?
• 1:32:10
  Kim Barthel: Well, it's called bilateral stimulation in its technical term, and
• 1:32:15
  it's about integrating the two sides of the brain, and one side of the brain has
• 1:32:21
  a specialty in lin- linear language logic, and the other side has a specialty in
• 1:32:28
  emotion and space and artistic creativity.
• 1:32:32
  And often, you know, we started out this conversation about autism.
• 1:32:38
  There's a difficulty with integrating those, they shift from one side to the
• 1:32:42
  other, or get stuck on one side versus the other a little bit more predominantly, and
• 1:32:50
  this is about integrating and increasing flexibility between those two sides.
• 1:32:58
  In the world of trauma, a lot of the traumatic experiences of early childhood
• 1:33:03
  come before language, so they have a greater influence on the right side
• 1:33:09
  of the brain, and moving between the two sides of the brain, which is what
• 1:33:13
  a lot of the somatic work does, gives you an integration of those thinking
• 1:33:19
  and feeling that you didn't make sense out of, that lived in the body.
• 1:33:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
• 1:33:27
  Kim Barthel: Just sitting on the horse is bilateral stimulation, really.
• 1:33:32
  Anytime you have to use two hands together-
• 1:33:35
  Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
• 1:33:36
  ... Kim Barthel: that's integrating the two sides of the body.
• 1:33:39
  Rupert Isaacson: If you took somebody who couldn't follow top-down instruction-
• 1:33:42
  Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
• 1:33:43
  ... Rupert Isaacson: yet, and you wanted to help them with this and get them
• 1:33:45
  to do bilateral stimulation, crossing the midline, without saying, "Do
• 1:33:50
  this movement or try this thing."
• 1:33:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:33:52
  What would be some strategies you might use?
• 1:33:55
  Kim Barthel: Well, for even just having, offering them an object off
• 1:33:59
  the center of their middle would invite that kind ... You, you'd see, do they,
• 1:34:05
  you know, pick it up with one hand and then the other hand and, and, and
• 1:34:10
  then finding the spot where they would be able to just use the same hand.
• 1:34:15
  Sometimes it's just a tiny mitt off of the middle.
• 1:34:19
  So that's nonverbal and just watching how they might pick up their
• 1:34:23
  favorite object or their toothbrush or whatever, their glass, where you
• 1:34:31
  place it can help in that regard.
• 1:34:35
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:34:36
  Leana Tank: Well, I'll dance with people, so I'll, I'll put on some music
• 1:34:40
  and then see if they can do the moves with me or take their hands and, and
• 1:34:44
  do it with them and get them moving.
• 1:34:46
  That'll-
• 1:34:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:34:47
  Hand over
• 1:34:47
  Leana Tank: hands.
• 1:34:47
  ... get people going.
• 1:34:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:34:54
  Rupert Isaacson: It's so much easy to do this, obviously, when people are small.
• 1:34:58
  Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
• 1:34:59
  Rupert Isaacson: When people get enormous-
• 1:35:01
  Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
• 1:35:02
  ... Rupert Isaacson: and stinky and smelly and hairy they may not
• 1:35:06
  be so easy to work with- mm-hmm.
• 1:35:09
  ... in this way, and you may not want to be in such proximity, sometimes for reasons
• 1:35:16
  of your own personal safety, sometimes for others, yet we all know that the most
• 1:35:25
  healing connection always involves touch.
• 1:35:31
  How do we tread that line?
• 1:35:36
  Mm.
• 1:35:36
  So people need to be hugged, people need to be supported.
• 1:35:41
  Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
• 1:35:41
  Rupert Isaacson: People need to be touched and reassured.
• 1:35:45
  As you say, putting hand over hand can really work.
• 1:35:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:35:51
  When we're dealing with somebody where this could be problematic, yet their need
• 1:35:57
  is still very great, and the potential positive outcomes could be very great.
• 1:36:06
  Again, what might be some strategies that b- the, the reason I ask
• 1:36:10
  these questions is a lot of people who run programs, for example, i-
• 1:36:17
  i- it's tricky to come up with all the ideas yourself.
• 1:36:19
  Leana Tank: Mm.
• 1:36:20
  Rupert Isaacson: And they may or may not have time to dive deeply
• 1:36:22
  into podcasts or books or whatever.
• 1:36:26
  So it's really good when they can get some sort of direct advice.
• 1:36:29
  "I was in this position, I did this.
• 1:36:32
  Could you give us some examples of some strategy you might use?
• 1:36:36
  Kim Barthel: Well, the thing I wanna say first is it's never about
• 1:36:39
  what you do, but how you do it.
• 1:36:41
  So for me, there's only ever been one person in 40 years that I couldn't touch
• 1:36:49
  because of the attunement that comes with it, meaning you, as you approach a
• 1:36:57
  person, and sometimes that's outside the door, they can feel you outside the door.
• 1:37:05
  It's how you read their body as you come into their space that gives you the
• 1:37:12
  clue as to how much closer you can get.
• 1:37:17
  And so, for example, you see it in, they hold their breath as you
• 1:37:24
  approach or they're, they move into avoidance, their back gets stiff, or
• 1:37:29
  they lean away, or their eyes look away, or there's a cu- there's a cue.
• 1:37:36
  And I usually say," Ah, that's where I need to stop.
• 1:37:40
  I notice that.
• 1:37:43
  "And then I may reach into their space rather than come close to their space.
• 1:37:50
  The hand is the most reliable place of safety, because inside the hand
• 1:37:57
  are all kinds of points of touch that connect into the vagus nerve, which is
• 1:38:04
  predominantly safe and down regulating right here in the web, we call it the
• 1:38:10
  web space, which is around the thumb.
• 1:38:13
  And I can technically hold your thumb and look in the opposite direction of
• 1:38:20
  you, be talking to other people and giving you a squeeze there as a point
• 1:38:28
  of entry, or I can teach hypothetically, maybe, the person to do that to themself,
• 1:38:38
  that if I can't do that with you, you might learn to give yourself a butterfly
• 1:38:45
  squeeze, which is squeezing your whole body yourself, or holding your own thumb.
• 1:38:53
  I mean, a lot of our kids do this to themselves anyway.
• 1:38:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:38:56
  Kim Barthel: You know, they, they do- I
• 1:38:57
  Rupert Isaacson: do, I do it to myself all the time.
• 1:38:59
  Yeah.
• 1:38:59
  Kim Barthel: Totally.
• 1:39:01
  And these are biological functions of decreasing the experience of stress.
• 1:39:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:39:10
  Kim Barthel: And, and a hug, you know, some people are sensitive to touch and
• 1:39:14
  some people are sensitive to relationship, and that's different that you, you, you
• 1:39:21
  know, tactile defensiveness is the touch in it of itself, but I have many clients
• 1:39:26
  that are relationally defended, and so the touch is embedded in the relationship.
• 1:39:34
  So you have to tease those two things out as well, that sometimes
• 1:39:38
  it's not about the stimulus itself.
• 1:39:43
  Rupert Isaacson: How might you- How might you tease those out?
• 1:39:46
  Kim Barthel: Well, you can, again, see it.
• 1:39:47
  If I'm the kind of kiddo or adult who can tolerate mess or, you know, I, I, I
• 1:39:55
  can play with or feel things that wash my hands in soapy water or tolerate textures
• 1:40:03
  of clothing, but I can't tolerate you
• 1:40:07
  hugging me.
• 1:40:08
  Sure.
• 1:40:09
  But all other realms of touch seem to be either satisfying or irrelevant,
• 1:40:16
  then that would be a cue that it's more connected to the person- mm-hmm.
• 1:40:24
  ... than it is to the sensation
• 1:40:26
  Rupert Isaacson: itself.
• 1:40:27
  100%.
• 1:40:27
  And this is where animals, of course, really help because often that person will
• 1:40:31
  have no problem hugging a dog or a horse or a chicken but they don't want a person
• 1:40:36
  And at the same time, if they can get to a point where they can hug
• 1:40:40
  a person, life will go better for them at some point later on up the
• 1:40:45
  road, if that is possible, because that is ultimately how we're wired.
• 1:40:50
  I have no attachment to myself getting them there, but it would ... I would
• 1:40:53
  hope for them that one day they can but my animals, of course, will
• 1:41:00
  be the ambassadors along that way.
• 1:41:04
  Again, it's when you don't have the animals.
• 1:41:07
  Yes.
• 1:41:07
  Leana Tank: I think, and I've- However- ... I've talked to- Yeah.
• 1:41:10
  ... autistic people too, that relational sense is very unsafe, right?
• 1:41:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:13
  Like other, we crave the relationship, but humans are so unpredictable
• 1:41:18
  and animals are good, but they can also start to build that sense of
• 1:41:22
  relationship even with a plant.
• 1:41:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:41:25
  Leana Tank: Um-That's
• 1:41:26
  Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
• 1:41:26
  Leana Tank: You know?
• 1:41:27
  So having a house plant or plants out in nature and there's some plants that
• 1:41:31
  are very tactile that you can touch or the grass and, or stones, Lying
• 1:41:36
  Rupert Isaacson: on the ground,
• 1:41:37
  yes.
• 1:41:37
  Leana Tank: Gems, yeah, lying on the ground.
• 1:41:39
  Yeah.
• 1:41:39
  Tree
• 1:41:39
  Rupert Isaacson: hugging.
• 1:41:40
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 1:41:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Lying fa- stomach down on the ground too.
• 1:41:43
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:44
  Yeah.
• 1:41:44
  Yeah.
• 1:41:44
  Yeah.
• 1:41:47
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 1:41:49
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, again, not necessarily things that people running
• 1:41:52
  an equestrian program might think to do.
• 1:41:55
  Let's go hug that tree.
• 1:41:56
  Let's lie on the ground.
• 1:41:58
  Let's ... Go barefoot is another big one for
• 1:42:01
  Leana Tank: me.
• 1:42:01
  Yeah.
• 1:42:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:42:02
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 1:42:02
  Rupert Isaacson: And you know, almost always wanna do it.
• 1:42:05
  And of course, the one thing you're not allowed to do in an equine place is take
• 1:42:07
  your shoes off, unless you're with me.
• 1:42:09
  And then I'm like, "Fine."
• 1:42:10
  Leana Tank: Right.
• 1:42:11
  " Rupert Isaacson: Take your shoes off.
• 1:42:11
  However, what we'll do is we'll make sure that there's one volunteer on each foot of
• 1:42:16
  that horse so that there's no possibility of that hoof going anywhere near you.
• 1:42:22
  " But the people who run, for example, Path International would
• 1:42:25
  say, "I'm nuts for doing that.
• 1:42:26
  But I just see that it's effective, so of course I'm gonna, you
• 1:42:30
  know, follow what's effective.
• 1:42:31
  But one can, of course, choose a space away from the horses as well to that.
• 1:42:36
  But really the, the, the, the interaction, therefore, with the environment, which
• 1:42:40
  is what you were saying earlier Kim, the environment, the emotional environment
• 1:42:45
  and the physical environment, and then you put those two things together
• 1:42:48
  and you've got the, what, what humans are supposed to be in and doing-
• 1:42:53
  On planet Earth.
• 1:42:54
  When I was working in this stable in Germany for a while where I didn't have
• 1:43:00
  my own ranch again for a while, I had to work out of a boarding stable and
• 1:43:05
  not every kid that came was cool in that environment or safe in that environment
• 1:43:08
  and not every other person in that environment was kid or autism friendly.
• 1:43:12
  And so there were some kids I could, like, rework with right
• 1:43:15
  there and others I couldn't.
• 1:43:17
  And I, and I said, "Oh my gosh, now what am I gonna do?
• 1:43:19
  " I thought, "Ah, I've just gotta be flexible in my environments."
• 1:43:22
  So I would say to certain families, "Don't meet me at the stable.
• 1:43:28
  Meet me at this car park in the forest that is 15 minutes from the stable.
• 1:43:34
  I will be there on horse.
• 1:43:35
  I would go gallopy gallopy across the field to get there."
• 1:43:38
  It's quite fun because I quite like doing that.
• 1:43:40
  And then I'd meet them and we'd do a whole play date there in the woods where
• 1:43:45
  I could, again, control the environment.
• 1:43:47
  And then I had, like, all this amazing stuff.
• 1:43:49
  Or I'd meet them at a playground in the village and where there's,
• 1:43:55
  you know, $2 million worth of play equipment that I don't have to buy
• 1:43:58
  or invest in or fundraise to get.
• 1:44:01
  And we could do it there.
• 1:44:02
  And then we're guaranteed to run into some other kids as well.
• 1:44:04
  So there's going to be some interaction, but we could also withdraw and my horse
• 1:44:08
  is there, so my horse is an ambassador between those kids and that kid
• 1:44:12
  because suddenly this kid is the cool kid because he showed up on a horse.
• 1:44:15
  That's kind of interesting.
• 1:44:17
  Even though he's wearing a diaper and he's 12.
• 1:44:19
  And suddenly those other kids are getting something relational as
• 1:44:23
  well, this type of flexibility.
• 1:44:25
  And I, and I often found that the, the best synchronicities happened
• 1:44:30
  when I made those changes that really m- remarkable things would happen.
• 1:44:36
  Almost miraculous things would happen.
• 1:44:38
  Like, you'd see a type of animal you hadn't seen in years would,
• 1:44:43
  like, show itself and present itself in some magical moment.
• 1:44:46
  Like, that's when I'd always see the, the male wild boar that you never see.
• 1:44:50
  They, they're, like, so big and herodic and they'd, like, walk
• 1:44:53
  out when I was with those kids.
• 1:44:55
  Really interesting.
• 1:44:57
  And then I started realizing if I, if I foraged with those kids with the
• 1:45:01
  horses and those things, then suddenly the forest would get more abundant.
• 1:45:04
  Like, mushroom season, we'd go out and I'd have the kid on tops as the spotter.
• 1:45:09
  And then I'd have a couple of people and, and they'd spot mushrooms and we'd
• 1:45:12
  just go to see were they edible or not.
• 1:45:15
  We'd get, like, way more when we had the ... It was some ... It was like
• 1:45:19
  the forest pot pushed out the good mushrooms for us when I had the kid.
• 1:45:23
  But when I went in by myself, I didn't find them.
• 1:45:26
  It's really interesting, this mix between the rational and the irrational.
• 1:45:32
  And you're talking about the vestibular system, dance, shamanism,
• 1:45:36
  moving from one state to another.
• 1:45:38
  I was thinking about moving across the midline, that's
• 1:45:40
  three-dimensional movement.
• 1:45:42
  Then, of course, you're moving to other dimensions.
• 1:45:47
  Have you guys found these magical synchronicities?
• 1:45:51
  And if so, can you give us a couple of- ... Samples, please?
• 1:45:56
  You want sick off?
• 1:45:58
  Kim Barthel: Oh, that's a hard, it's hard because there are so many.
• 1:46:02
  I don't know if I can pick one.
• 1:46:04
  Rupert Isaacson: What's a, what's a recent one?
• 1:46:05
  What's one that just springs to mind?
• 1:46:07
  Kim Barthel: Mm.
• 1:46:08
  Maybe I'm gonna let you go first, Leanna.
• 1:46:10
  Leana Tank: Okay.
• 1:46:11
  All right.
• 1:46:11
  I have one ... I, yeah, I, I take my folks out walking in nature all the time, and
• 1:46:17
  it just blows my mind how nature just shows up with just the thing, right?
• 1:46:21
  And I, I was walking.
• 1:46:24
  I had a man with also another man with schizophrenia, very
• 1:46:27
  disconnected from reality.
• 1:46:29
  So I had found really the only reality-based conversations we had were
• 1:46:33
  walking in nature where he'd talk about ... We'd look at, you know, how spring was
• 1:46:37
  coming along or look at the clouds.
• 1:46:39
  And so we just did this all the time, because otherwise he was in an, another
• 1:46:43
  world or just staring into space, and I was really the only person that
• 1:46:47
  could have a connection with him.
• 1:46:49
  And one day we were walking and these little butterflies came
• 1:46:54
  and they just swirled around us.
• 1:46:56
  Like, they just ... There were, like, two or three of them, and they just,
• 1:46:59
  like, from both of us, from our feet, like, all the way up around kind of
• 1:47:03
  our hearts and for just a few minutes, they were just swirling and it was just
• 1:47:07
  I don't know.
• 1:47:08
  He just kind of stood and watched them, and I stood and watched them, and we just
• 1:47:11
  yeah, just had a, had a moment, but it was, it was really, really beautiful.
• 1:47:17
  Kim Barthel: Wow.
• 1:47:20
  I think for me, one example that comes to mind, because I don't always get to be in
• 1:47:25
  nature like both of you are describing.
• 1:47:28
  Lots of times I'm working with people who are unhoused, living in the street.
• 1:47:35
  And I had a recent example where I was working in our, or in our
• 1:47:41
  Vancouver downtown Eastside, which is a very large unhomeless population.
• 1:47:47
  And there was a young man and this is about two ... This story was, this
• 1:47:52
  first part of the story is about two years ago, was sitting on the curb, and
• 1:47:57
  he was rocking his body, and having a conversation with himself, and I decided
• 1:48:07
  to just sit on the curb beside him.
• 1:48:10
  And it took him about two, three minutes to recognize that I was even
• 1:48:15
  there, and he slowly looked over at me, and I said to him, "I see you.
• 1:48:27
  " That was it.
• 1:48:28
  Then he went back to talking to himself, and I got up and I walked away, and fast
• 1:48:35
  forward two years, this is recently, I was in Walmart in some sh- you know,
• 1:48:41
  some aisle, and this young man walks over to me, and he says, "It's you.
• 1:48:48
  And I looked at him because I didn't recognize him at all.
• 1:48:51
  And he said, "You are the lady who sat on the curb beside
• 1:48:56
  me, and you said, I see you.
• 1:49:00
  I want you to see me now.
• 1:49:03
  I have a
• 1:49:06
  job."
• 1:49:06
  And he said, "You are the first person to ever say they saw me.
• 1:49:14
  " Now, I'm telling you that story because I don't think any of these
• 1:49:18
  things are ever for one person.
• 1:49:21
  They're so circular- mm-hmm.
• 1:49:24
  ... that what we do with other actually has a spring back immediately at us.
• 1:49:29
  And rarely do I ever get to see any of the seeds that you plant.
• 1:49:37
  And this was a day where, you know, we, in your eyes, I see myself as.
• 1:49:45
  So I think of synchronicity also, not only in the world, the natural
• 1:49:51
  world, but also in the human world where, you know, it was a particular
• 1:49:57
  day where I was wondering, does any of this make any difference at all?
• 1:50:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:50:04
  Kim Barthel: And then spirit sort of shows up in a connected way and
• 1:50:10
  reminds us of why we do what we do.
• 1:50:14
  So that's, that's one that comes to mind.
• 1:50:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:50:16
  And that's actually, it's, it's a good point that, I mean, of course, the, the
• 1:50:19
  human world is the natural world even, you know, even when one sitting in the middle
• 1:50:22
  of Walmart, one is on planet earth, one is in nature, one is just in a type of nature
• 1:50:27
  that has been made not so good for humans.
• 1:50:30
  And, and maybe any other species, but it's true that it's more direct in nature.
• 1:50:38
  And it's also true that the vast majority of the people that we serve do not live
• 1:50:43
  there and are gonna go from your stable back to a suburban or urban environment,
• 1:50:50
  relatively few are going to go into the forest in terms of back home which is
• 1:50:58
  why I'll generally give people advice of, if you possibly can move either
• 1:51:06
  to the country or to somewhere where you've got access to a very large park
• 1:51:11
  or, or because the more time you spend there, the better things are gonna go.
• 1:51:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:51:18
  But if you can't how do you make the most of it?
• 1:51:22
  And, and it is certainly true that in movement method, for example, we teach
• 1:51:26
  people that to get, if you can get the correct human environment and the
• 1:51:30
  correct physical environment together, this is always gonna be optimal,
• 1:51:36
  but which one would win in our work?
• 1:51:40
  And we realized that it's true that if you went into the forest with someone
• 1:51:44
  who was scaring the shit out of you and making you feel very unsafe, it really
• 1:51:49
  wouldn't matter how good the ecology was.
• 1:51:53
  You would be just lost in cortisol and trying to survive and, you know, but yet
• 1:51:58
  you could be by the side of the freeway with the trucks going by with somebody
• 1:52:03
  incredibly empathetic and loving and derive more support and benefit from
• 1:52:12
  that than being out under the trees.
• 1:52:14
  Ideally, we do it both together.
• 1:52:19
  But it was interesting to us, even as, as nature-based as our programs
• 1:52:22
  are, we had to kind of admit that it comes down to the relational, really.
• 1:52:28
  Yeah.
• 1:52:28
  But of course, nature helps with that m, because it also chills people
• 1:52:32
  out doesn't, you know, takes care.
• 1:52:34
  And that's something else which I'd like to talk about a
• 1:52:36
  little bit why nature kills us.
• 1:52:40
  So I went for a walk the other day, I'd been teaching all
• 1:52:45
  day and teaching with horses.
• 1:52:48
  So I was still in nature, right?
• 1:52:49
  I look up, there's the hills, there's the woods, there's the forest, but
• 1:52:52
  I'm in quite a focused, you know, thing and trying to keep people
• 1:52:56
  alive as well as educated- mm-hmm.
• 1:52:59
  And at the end of the day, I was like, "Phew, okay, I'm gonna go for a walk."
• 1:53:02
  So I went for a walk and I'm just walking, in this case, through an olive grove, and
• 1:53:09
  I'm like, "Ooh, this is easy on the eyes."
• 1:53:13
  And I could feel my body go, "Ah."
• 1:53:16
  And then I thought, why is it easy on the eyes?
• 1:53:19
  Kim Barthel: Hmm.
• 1:53:19
  Rupert Isaacson: Is it easy on the eyes because the shapes are around it?
• 1:53:23
  Is it easy?
• 1:53:23
  Is it ... And then what's hard on the eyes?
• 1:53:26
  Is that why urban environments are harder because it's rectangular
• 1:53:30
  and it always makes you do focus?
• 1:53:33
  Whereas when I'm looking at these trees, I can actually be soft in my optic no,
• 1:53:36
  and my brain isn't working so hard.
• 1:53:39
  Is it something like that?
• 1:53:41
  You guys know more about this than I do.
• 1:53:43
  What do you think?
• 1:53:45
  Kim Barthel: I have one thought.
• 1:53:48
  Actually, it's, it's a little bit even broader than that.
• 1:53:51
  There are ... And I asked the same question as you, by the way to someone
• 1:53:55
  else, and this is the answer they gave me, a neuroscientist gave me, was we
• 1:54:02
  have circuits, two pathways, parallel circuits in our nervous system that
• 1:54:07
  involve many different parts of the brain.
• 1:54:09
  One is called the Default Mode Network, and the other one is
• 1:54:12
  called the Salience Network.
• 1:54:14
  And the salience network comes online when you are thinking, analyzing,
• 1:54:21
  as Isai, or when you are trying to keep people alive with the horses.
• 1:54:27
  And the salience network can use as many calories as running a marathon.
• 1:54:34
  It's very expensive to think all the time for your body.
• 1:54:41
  And the default mode network comes online when you soften your gaze,
• 1:54:48
  when you soften your focus and nature brings us there the quickest.
• 1:54:54
  And when our default mode network gets more opportunity, then it makes
• 1:55:02
  the salience mode network better.
• 1:55:04
  It's like less is more.
• 1:55:08
  So walking on the beach, which is my favorite, with my feet in the water, or
• 1:55:15
  smell ... I mean, every time I come back to Victoria where we live, there's no
• 1:55:19
  smell like it, to me, of pure oxygen.
• 1:55:24
  And those, those capture those networks of ease, which takes you
• 1:55:35
  out of this analyzing fixation into being connected to something bigger
• 1:55:41
  than yourself without thinking.
• 1:55:45
  And a lot of, interestingly, the default mode network is
• 1:55:48
  connected to interoception, that the more time I have in rest, the
• 1:55:54
  more I am connected to myself.
• 1:55:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Does this mean ... Something I've observed, again, with
• 1:56:02
  Hunter Gatherers, is that the base state of humanity seems to be when people are
• 1:56:09
  living in the optimal natural setting in that way including the tribal,
• 1:56:14
  Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
• 1:56:15
  Rupert Isaacson: setting.
• 1:56:17
  A base kind of quiet happiness.
• 1:56:20
  Kim Barthel: Yeah.
• 1:56:20
  Rupert Isaacson: That I don't encounter much depression or mental illness.
• 1:56:27
  I do encounter neuro difference, and those people are often
• 1:56:30
  actually shamans and heelers.
• 1:56:32
  But I, but I don't encounter ... And, and it's not in any way seen as a dysfunction.
• 1:56:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:56:37
  It's more like a job qualification.
• 1:56:39
  You're more sensitive you've already got one foot in the spirit world, so therefore
• 1:56:44
  that's obviously gonna be your job.
• 1:56:46
  But if everybody is basically in that situation, living in the,
• 1:56:50
  mostly in the default network-
• 1:56:53
  Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
• 1:56:54
  ... Rupert Isaacson: with brief forays into the salience network-
• 1:56:58
  Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
• 1:56:58
  ... Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna hunt now, or I've got to do this task- mm-hmm.
• 1:57:01
  to, you know, create this tool or dress the skin or
• 1:57:07
  whatever, carry this animal hub.
• 1:57:10
  Okay.
• 1:57:11
  But most of the time, w- what's in front of my eyes and where I'm
• 1:57:15
  existing from what you've said is gonna put me in that bolt network.
• 1:57:20
  So is a lot of what goes wrong with us when we move into the urban setting-
• 1:57:28
  Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
• 1:57:28
  Rupert Isaacson: which is about a 10,000 year old experiment, more
• 1:57:30
  or less that we get thrown into the salience network- mm-hmm.
• 1:57:35
  Kim Barthel: Mm-hmm.
• 1:57:36
  ... Rupert Isaacson: just way too much and that this exhausts us and therefore
• 1:57:43
  sends us nuts because it's- Mm.
• 1:57:45
  ... exhausting and painful.
• 1:57:46
  I mean, what do, what do you guys think about that?
• 1:57:48
  What do you think about that Leanna?
• 1:57:53
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 1:57:53
  I mean, I think just taking humans out of their natural environment context
• 1:57:59
  and putting them in situations where they're constantly bombarded with
• 1:58:03
  stress and stress that is diffuse and, you know, never quite resolved
• 1:58:10
  and is just going to cause all kinds of ... Ills and issues and problems
• 1:58:18
  physically and mentally, you know?
• 1:58:20
  I, yeah.
• 1:58:21
  Rupert Isaacson: So if we aren't able to- For sure.
• 1:58:23
  But there's your, your man who was sitting on the curb camp.
• 1:58:29
  And now knows Walmart.
• 1:58:32
  This is one of the least optimal.
• 1:58:34
  I can, I can last about 15 minutes and therefore I have to run.
• 1:58:39
  There's something about the smells of Walmart too and that
• 1:58:41
  blue light and everything.
• 1:58:42
  It's, it's, it's not just that it's a superstore.
• 1:58:44
  It's, there's something very particular about the sensory experience of a Walmart.
• 1:58:48
  And apparently I heard more crime happens in Walmart parking lots in North
• 1:58:55
  America than just about any other ... I mean, we should look up and see if I'm
• 1:59:01
  blowing smoke on that one, but I- Uh-huh.
• 1:59:02
  I've heard that a few times.
• 1:59:04
  There's probably all kinds of reasons.
• 1:59:05
  Kim Barthel: Well, I think it's, it's purpose, hey?
• 1:59:09
  Purpose and meaning are valuable pieces of the human fuel of places.
• 1:59:20
  Like, you know, when you think about creativity and connection,
• 1:59:25
  purpose is way up there and meaning making in our lives that, well, I
• 1:59:32
  just think about Victor Frankel, you know, how you can take- mm-hmm.
• 1:59:37
  things that are so horrific and make meaning out of them.
• 1:59:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Tell us who is Victor Frankl?
• 1:59:41
  People won't know.
• 1:59:42
  Well,
• 1:59:42
  Kim Barthel: he is a survivor of the prisoner of war camp in Auschwitz.
• 1:59:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 1:59:47
  Kim Barthel: You know, talks all about the experiences of that trauma is not
• 1:59:52
  what happens to you, but what happens inside you when something happens to you.
• 1:59:56
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:59:57
  Kim Barthel: And so meaning making, I, I think what the pride was in the, even
• 2:00:05
  though it was Walmart, it wasn't Walmart.
• 2:00:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
• 2:00:09
  Kim Barthel: It was the sense of, look at me.
• 2:00:12
  I, I'm engaged in something purposeful.
• 2:00:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:00:18
  Kim Barthel: And I'm proud of a, in a good place of pride,
• 2:00:22
  not a negative place of pride.
• 2:00:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 2:00:25
  Kim Barthel: And that, that's what captured my attention.
• 2:00:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, and 100%, 100%.
• 2:00:29
  And, you know, he, one would, one just hopes that because it's a salience mode
• 2:00:36
  network environment, that he won't then tumble from it because there isn't enough
• 2:00:41
  default that ... So how do we help people who are in urban environments get as
• 2:00:50
  much default mo- network as possible?
• 2:00:53
  Kim Barthel: Well, one thing is called the long gaze.
• 2:00:57
  It's the- The
• 2:00:57
  Rupert Isaacson: long gaze.
• 2:00:58
  Kim Barthel: The long gaze.
• 2:00:59
  Yep.
• 2:00:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Writing it down.
• 2:01:00
  The long game.
• 2:01:01
  Kim Barthel: Which means even, like, for example, I've been sitting here
• 2:01:05
  now in my chair for a while, and every once in a while, I don't know if you
• 2:01:10
  know it, but I turn my head- Yeah.
• 2:01:12
  ... because out my window-
• 2:01:14
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:01:14
  ... Kim Barthel: it's magnificence.
• 2:01:16
  You know, I'm- Tell
• 2:01:17
  Rupert Isaacson: us, describe.
• 2:01:18
  Paint a picture.
• 2:01:18
  Kim Barthel: Well, I'm, I'm on, I, I'm on the ocean.
• 2:01:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Walmart, hopefully.
• 2:01:21
  Yeah.
• 2:01:22
  Leana Tank: Oh,
• 2:01:22
  Kim Barthel: yeah.
• 2:01:22
  I'm definitely not in Walmart.
• 2:01:25
  And I have a a forest environment, and then the ocean, and I
• 2:01:31
  can't see another house.
• 2:01:33
  So I have nature just beyond my window, and when you look l- in a distance,
• 2:01:42
  you take your brain out of focus, because you're not here in focus.
• 2:01:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 2:01:49
  Kim Barthel: And so the long gaze, this was something that we talked ... There
• 2:01:52
  was a lot of conversation about this during COVID, because we were so bathed
• 2:01:56
  in stress that even if you look at your screensaver for a minute, and
• 2:02:02
  it has something beautiful on it- Mm.
• 2:02:05
  ... your brain doesn't always know the difference between what is reality
• 2:02:09
  and what it thinks is reality.
• 2:02:12
  Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
• 2:02:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:02:13
  Wildlife documentaries.
• 2:02:15
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 2:02:15
  Mm.
• 2:02:16
  Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.
• 2:02:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:02:17
  Kim Barthel: Definitely.
• 2:02:18
  That you can still or, or I don't know, if, if they, if I go through
• 2:02:23
  customs and they take my phone away, all they're gonna find on my Instagram
• 2:02:27
  is all these pictures of nature.
• 2:02:31
  Leana Tank: I've heard that, like, fractal pictures too.
• 2:02:33
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 2:02:33
  Yeah.
• 2:02:33
  It can be very
• 2:02:34
  Leana Tank: soothing.
• 2:02:34
  Yeah.
• 2:02:35
  Nature fractals.
• 2:02:36
  Yeah.
• 2:02:36
  Yeah.
• 2:02:37
  Kim Barthel: That what we, what we choose to do and look at, you know,
• 2:02:43
  my husband went and bought a pair of ground, of grounding shoes, earth shoes,
• 2:02:48
  which have, they demand from your feet to feel like you're walking barefoot.
• 2:02:53
  They're barefoot shoes.
• 2:02:54
  And just even wearing things like that, if you, if that's in your possibility,
• 2:03:01
  can bring you into connection with things even though you're not
• 2:03:05
  in connection with those things.
• 2:03:07
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 2:03:07
  I was thinking, you know, it's a bit difficult doing a long gaze if the long
• 2:03:11
  gaze is just more Walmarts, you know?
• 2:03:13
  Like-
• 2:03:13
  Leana Tank: I think about Rupert, you had a really cool
• 2:03:17
  conversation with Craig Foster-
• 2:03:19
  Rupert Isaacson: Uh-huh.
• 2:03:19
  ... Leana Tank: from my octopus teacher.
• 2:03:21
  Are you familiar with him, Kim?
• 2:03:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:03:24
  Or with my octopus teacher, that documentary?
• 2:03:27
  Oh, you should- Oh, you got a treat, you gotta treat this door.
• 2:03:30
  Oh my gosh.
• 2:03:30
  Go on
• 2:03:30
  Rupert Isaacson: Netflix tonight.
• 2:03:31
  Leana Tank: Oh my gosh.
• 2:03:32
  Rupert Isaacson: And watch it.
• 2:03:33
  Okay.
• 2:03:33
  Kim Barthel: Yep.
• 2:03:34
  Rupert Isaacson: You'll be like, "Thanks, Leanna."
• 2:03:36
  Leana Tank: Yep.
• 2:03:36
  Yep.
• 2:03:36
  You'll be like, "Oh, you won."
• 2:03:38
  Kim Barthel: Amazing.
• 2:03:38
  Leana Tank: But anyway, he talked about, because he's very much a
• 2:03:41
  noticer of nature, right, a deep noticer of nature and even being in
• 2:03:46
  the city and noticing, like, little slug trails in the sidewalk, right?
• 2:03:52
  Or little places where the mosque rows or, or the flowers
• 2:03:56
  and the cracks of the sidewalk.
• 2:03:58
  And I think- Yeah.
• 2:03:59
  ... in any urban environment, you can actually notice where nature is, like,
• 2:04:03
  creeping in and finding a foothold and, like, just that little glimmer or
• 2:04:09
  that, like, "Ooh, I see you dandelion over there, like, can be a way to
• 2:04:13
  connect with nature because it's there.
• 2:04:15
  Like, you can't escape it.
• 2:04:17
  There's little pigeons, you know-
• 2:04:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Rigt.
• 2:04:20
  There's actually often a surprising amount of nature going
• 2:04:23
  on in any urban environment.
• 2:04:24
  And that's sort of what ... I'm glad you told us, because that's because
• 2:04:27
  I, I sort of set that question up as a bit of a devil's advocate one
• 2:04:32
  because a lot of people will say to me, "Well, it's all very well you know,
• 2:04:35
  he lives in nature, but what about me?
• 2:04:37
  I'm here in wherever."
• 2:04:39
  And I'm like, "Yeah, but my parents live in the middle of London and I can track
• 2:04:44
  foxes from right outside their door.
• 2:04:49
  I know if I go out at certain times of night, I'm likely to run into them."
• 2:04:52
  Exactly as you say, that you, you can watch the slug trails and then you
• 2:04:56
  can start to see the little serrations in them where they've been eating
• 2:05:00
  the algae that's on the pavement.
• 2:05:03
  You're suddenly a tracker, but somebody does have to show you in a funny
• 2:05:07
  way how to look for these things.
• 2:05:09
  And as you say, Kim, the brain doesn't always know the difference.
• 2:05:14
  So watching a screensaver or a wildlife documentary can produce that sense,
• 2:05:20
  "Oh, I'm looking at nature, even though I'm in my living room in the city."
• 2:05:24
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 2:05:24
  Rupert Isaacson: The other one, of course, is the sky.
• 2:05:27
  Leana Tank: Mm.
• 2:05:27
  Rupert Isaacson: And I think you, like, just like you're looking at the ocean.
• 2:05:31
  Leana Tank: Mm.
• 2:05:31
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, one of the tasks that I would give
• 2:05:34
  people in those, what do we do?
• 2:05:38
  So I say, "Go out, look for these birds, go out, look..."
• 2:05:39
  It's actually just going out in nature and noticing.
• 2:05:43
  But one of them was weather systems, look up and tell me what the sky is doing, and
• 2:05:49
  of course, and then go out and look at stars, even with light pollution, there'd
• 2:05:54
  be some, tell me what they're doing.
• 2:05:58
  And sometimes someone needs to give one a bit of a kickstart if
• 2:06:02
  one's not in the habit of sort of exercising the muscle- Mm.
• 2:06:06
  ... Kim Barthel: or
• 2:06:06
  Rupert Isaacson: I guess the long gaze or noticing nature.
• 2:06:10
  And one might be sort of totally tuning it out because one is just so very much
• 2:06:15
  in that focus gaze as you're ... Because the focus gaze is internal as well, right?
• 2:06:19
  It's, it's effortful thinking, "I must do this, I must do this, I must do
• 2:06:24
  this, I must make this money," you know?
• 2:06:26
  So thanks for bringing up the, the brain doesn't always know the difference
• 2:06:33
  because if one lets people know that they could start with a screensaver-
• 2:06:38
  Leana Tank: Mm.
• 2:06:39
  ... Rupert Isaacson: and then move to looking at what birds are or the dandelion
• 2:06:45
  and then move to the sky, then you can actually, I guess, help someone that's
• 2:06:49
  in a really non-optimal environment.
• 2:06:52
  Kim Barthel: Mm.
• 2:06:54
  Rupert Isaacson: I know that you are going to need to go see- mm-hmm.
• 2:06:59
  ... and we've been talking a long time.
• 2:07:04
  Are there any parting thoughts-
• 2:07:06
  Kim Barthel: mm-hmm.
• 2:07:07
  ... Rupert Isaacson: that you feel
• 2:07:10
  w- it would be really good to just leave people with,
• 2:07:16
  with this conversation, what would they be?
• 2:07:19
  Kim Barthel: That the brain can change until you stop breathing.
• 2:07:22
  Rupert Isaacson: The brain can change until you stop breathing.
• 2:07:25
  Kim Barthel: Mm.
• 2:07:27
  Yep.
• 2:07:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:07:28
  Kim Barthel: And there is always the potential for h- healing, that
• 2:07:35
  it is never a, a lost opportunity.
• 2:07:41
  Rupert Isaacson: It's never too late.
• 2:07:42
  Kim Barthel: Mm-mm.
• 2:07:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Beautiful.
• 2:07:46
  Leana Tank: Yeah.
• 2:07:46
  I love that.
• 2:07:47
  Even 10 years ago when I was first starting to work in mental
• 2:07:50
  health, I don't think I, I thought you're fixed, right, in adulthood.
• 2:07:54
  Mm.
• 2:07:54
  So it's been a really beautiful thing to learn that that's not true.
• 2:07:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:08:00
  It's, it used to be the norm that everyone thought, "Well, you just are who you are.
• 2:08:06
  Leana Tank: mm-hmm.
• 2:08:07
  Rupert Isaacson: But luckily not.
• 2:08:09
  I
• 2:08:11
  Kim Barthel: was gonna say, thank goodness not.
• 2:08:12
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 2:08:14
  There are some places I've been, which I'm glad I'm not in anymore.
• 2:08:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:08:18
  Thank you guys both so much for this.
• 2:08:20
  I think this has been really, really, really helpful and useful
• 2:08:23
  for all of us practitioners.
• 2:08:26
  Just quickly, before you go, the plugs, when people find you, your
• 2:08:31
  books, your courses, people needing to reach out for mandolship.
• 2:08:35
  You wanna go first Kim?
• 2:08:38
  Kim Barthel: Sure.
• 2:08:38
  So my website is kimbarthel.ca,
• 2:08:43
  just my name and CA for Canada.
• 2:08:45
  Rupert Isaacson: And-
• 2:08:46
  Kim Barthel: And-
• 2:08:46
  ... Rupert Isaacson: B-A-R-T-H-E-L, Kim Bartel.
• 2:08:49
  Kim Barthel: You've got it.
• 2:08:50
  Yeah.
• 2:08:50
  You got it.
• 2:08:51
  And then you, there you can find everything in other ways to connect.
• 2:08:56
  And I did.
• 2:08:56
  I wrote a book with a former hockey player because Canada hockey is
• 2:09:01
  pretty big deal on healing from sexual trauma and addiction.
• 2:09:05
  So it's called Conversations with a Rattlesnake.
• 2:09:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Conversations with a rattlesnake.
• 2:09:12
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 2:09:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Kim Barthel.
• 2:09:14
  And you teach courses, how do people, they can find out about all that online?
• 2:09:18
  Kim Barthel: Right on the website.
• 2:09:19
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 2:09:20
  And you go around the world doing this all the time.
• 2:09:22
  I know you've just come back from 8,000 countries in- Yeah.
• 2:09:26
  8,000 months.
• 2:09:28
  Do you do unli- you, you help people out online too, can people?
• 2:09:31
  Kim Barthel: Yes.
• 2:09:31
  Okay.
• 2:09:32
  We have a a large number of online webinars that people ... And one of
• 2:09:36
  them is lovingly called Autism Matters.
• 2:09:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Wonderful.
• 2:09:41
  Okay.
• 2:09:41
  Kim Barthel: Yeah.
• 2:09:42
  Rupert Isaacson: So check it out- Very good.
• 2:09:43
  ... people.
• 2:09:45
  Leanna, how do they find you?
• 2:09:48
  Leana Tank: I have ... I do a little consulting on the side, so
• 2:09:51
  you can contact me on my website, constellationsconsulting.org.
• 2:09:56
  I'm also on Facebook, findable on Facebook and Instagram, so.
• 2:10:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Leanna Tank as in the tank.
• 2:10:02
  Yeah.
• 2:10:03
  Yes.
• 2:10:03
  Leana Tank: With a tank.
• 2:10:03
  Yep.
• 2:10:04
  Just-
• 2:10:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 2:10:05
  Brilliant.
• 2:10:06
  Well, my friends, thank you so much.
• 2:10:07
  I hope we can do this again.
• 2:10:09
  I think we scratched some surfaces that we could go deeper into.
• 2:10:14
  So- Loved
• 2:10:14
  Kim Barthel: it.
• 2:10:15
  Leana Tank: Thank you.
• 2:10:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Thank you
• 2:10:15
  Leana Tank: both
• 2:10:16
  Kim Barthel: of
• 2:10:16
  Leana Tank: you.
• 2:10:16
  Wonderful.
• 2:10:16
  Thanks so
• 2:10:16
  much.
• 2:10:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Very grateful, guys.
• 2:10:18
  Thank
• 2:10:18
  Kim Barthel: you.
• 2:10:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Full heart.
• 2:10:19
  Leana Tank: Thanks.
• 2:10:21
  Bye-bye.
• 2:10:21
  Kim Barthel: Bye.
• 2:10:21
  Bye-bye.
• 2:10:22
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• 2:10:25
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• 2:10:30
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