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Affordable Healthcare is Worth Fighting For · Pod Save America

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• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 1:46
  Speaker 5: And I'm Alex Wagner.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: John is off today. Alex, thank you for filling in
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: for him on what is going to be a very
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: big show.
• 1:52
  Speaker 5: Oh, huge. I mean, listen, I can't make it unless
• 1:55
  Speaker 5: it's a big show. You know what I'm saying?
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. You have in your deal that it
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: has to be a certain level of news before you
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: appear on this podcast. Is it a national emergency?
• 2:04
  Speaker 5: I'm in.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: If this is just routine.
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: Well, we're always in an emergency, so.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, we're in several emergencies today. So, as we
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: will see. On today's show, Pete Hegseth lectures America's top
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: military leaders about weight loss, physical fitness, and grooming. Donald
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Trump tries to extort universities into becoming more MAGA. And
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Trump loses two huge court cases. But first, it loomed.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Then it barreled. And shortly after midnight on Wednesday, the
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: government shut down. The earliest it could reopen is Friday,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: when the Senate is scheduled to vote after members return
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: from the Yom Kippur holiday. But that vote is expected
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: to fail. Democrats have held the line on their demand
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: that ACA subsidies, which are set to expire at the
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: end of the year, be extended, while Republicans have maintained,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: as Speaker Johnson said at a news conference, that they have, quote,
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: literally nothing to negotiate. With no bipartisan agreement in sight,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Senate Majority Leader John Thune is now attempting to peel
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: off a handful of Democratic senators, but President Trump doesn't
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: seem too anxious to reopen the government anytime soon. He
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: and Republicans seem to be relishing the opportunity to inflict
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: as much pain on as many people as possible. Alex,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: we are 40 or so hours into the shutdown as
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: we record. How are you feeling?
• 3:13
  Speaker 6: I mean, I think we live in the upside down, Dan,
• 3:15
  Speaker 6: when Republicans are trying to like care about, pretend that
• 3:20
  Speaker 6: they care about funding the government and the appropriations process
• 3:23
  Speaker 6: when they've literally bent the knee and like done a
• 3:25
  Speaker 6: blood oath to the man who is completely vaulted over
• 3:29
  Speaker 6: the legislative process and wants to do nothing but strip
• 3:32
  Speaker 6: the government down to its studs. So yeah, I mean,
• 3:35
  Speaker 6: it feels weird, right? It's a complete inversion of the
• 3:38
  Speaker 6: party's normal stances. And that is odd. I am heartened
• 3:44
  Speaker 6: to some degree, and we'll talk more about this, by
• 3:49
  Speaker 6: the fact that Democrats are hanging together for the most part,
• 3:52
  Speaker 6: that they've done something differently, because I think these abnormal
• 3:55
  Speaker 6: times call for unusual measures. I think the strategy itself
• 4:00
  Speaker 6: is pretty complicated. And I worry that the American public,
• 4:06
  Speaker 6: you know, until Yellowstone closes down, we have a history
• 4:10
  Speaker 6: as a country of not caring probably enough about federal
• 4:14
  Speaker 6: bureaucracy and what happens to federal workers and they exist
• 4:17
  Speaker 6: in a kind of liminal space, I think, as far
• 4:20
  Speaker 6: as the American imagination. But I think it's good that
• 4:24
  Speaker 6: all the stories about this shutdown begin with an explanation
• 4:28
  Speaker 6: about what Republicans are trying to do to American healthcare
• 4:32
  Speaker 6: and that we are having at least the beginnings of
• 4:36
  Speaker 6: a conversation about healthcare costs and what the big, beautiful
• 4:41
  Speaker 6: Bill Act has done and the sort of priorities of
• 4:44
  Speaker 6: the Republican Party as it concerns the welfare of of
• 4:47
  Speaker 6: the most vulnerable in our society.
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  Speaker 5: So that part seems good. But I'd like to see
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: a lot.
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  Speaker 6: I mean, I'd like to see a lot more coordination
• 4:58
  Speaker 6: and creativity and ambition as far as, you know, where
• 5:02
  Speaker 6: the Democrats are at, at least from a messaging perspective.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll get to the message in a second. You're right.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: There is this is very awkward dynamic, which is the
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  Speaker 2: Republicans are the ones who've initiated every other shutdown in
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  Speaker 2: recent American history. And generally want to see the government
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: and they want to, in their own parlance, drown the
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: government in a bathtub. And so they're so insincere and
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: awkward in arguing for the government to be reopened. Like
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: it does not compute for them. And the Democrats have
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: always been the ones who have argued that the government
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: is important and should stay open. And we can have
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: this long epistemological argument about who's really at fault here,
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  Speaker 2: but Democrats are the ones who are demanding something in
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  Speaker 2: this process, but also the ones who seem to care
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  Speaker 2: the most about the federal workers who are furloughed or
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: the people who are impacted by the projects or the
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: initiatives that are being temporarily shut down due to the shutdown.
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  Speaker 2: So everyone is– you're right. It's like that's a good
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: way of putting it. We're sort of in the upside
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: down where no one really kind of knows– they're playing
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: the opposite role.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And that's uncomfortable for them. Yeah. And so, you know, it's,
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  Speaker 2: we are, as I said, we're 40 hours into this.
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  Speaker 2: What is probably most notable to me is that there
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  Speaker 2: really is no conversation about how to solve the problem.
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  Speaker 2: Republicans have no interest in having that conversation. They're not
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: willing to compromise. Compromise equals surrender. And so there's, there
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  Speaker 2: is no like gang of 12 off meeting somewhere or
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  Speaker 2: anything else. It's just, we are, everyone's just staring at
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  Speaker 2: each other. Maybe that'll change after the weekend, but right
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  Speaker 2: now it's, we're just sort of like stuck in this
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  Speaker 2: place and it feels like we can be here for
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: a while.
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  Speaker 6: Well, yeah, and there's the fundamental reality that in the interim,
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  Speaker 6: Republicans under the leadership of both Trump and Russell Vogt
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  Speaker 6: at OMB are just doing the thing they've always.
• 6:43
  Speaker 5: Wanted to do.
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  Speaker 6: It's like playing chicken with someone who very badly wants
• 6:47
  Speaker 6: to drive a car off a cliff, whose lifelong dream
• 6:50
  Speaker 6: has been like, Thelma and Louise.
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: Style, let's gun the engine and go.
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  Speaker 6: And you've finally been given an opportunity to do that,
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  Speaker 6: and they're not trying to stop.
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  Speaker 5: So that's a sort of.
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  Speaker 6: That's a structural problem in any strategy in this situation.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's been the structural problem in every shutdown where
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  Speaker 2: the positions are reversed, which is we actually are responsible.
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  Speaker 2: We actually care what happens to people. And if they don't,
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  Speaker 2: it's very hard. You can't negotiate with people like that.
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  Speaker 2: And then this time they're theoretically the ones that serve
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  Speaker 2: the government and they can't pretend to actually care. As
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  Speaker 2: we're watching this, Trump and Republicans are trying very hard
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  Speaker 2: to project confidence. They are It's all bluster and swagger
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  Speaker 2: from the Trump White House on down. The press seems
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  Speaker 2: to believe– maybe even some Democrats seem to believe Republicans
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  Speaker 2: have the upper hand politically in this. Do you agree?
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  Speaker 6: I mean I don't think it's a great sign that
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  Speaker 6: like within 24 hours they've peeled off three Democratic senators, right?
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  Speaker 6: I think it's– I think the fact that Trump has
• 7:53
  Speaker 6: ordered federal agencies to have sort of banners on their
• 7:56
  Speaker 6: website saying, this agency is not able to operate at
• 8:00
  Speaker 6: full tilt because of a Democrat-led shutdown.
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  Speaker 5: You know, he is doing things.
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  Speaker 6: That are clear violations of the Hatch Act. But like, whatever,
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  Speaker 6: the Hatch Act went the way of the dodo bird some.
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  Speaker 5: Eight years ago.
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  Speaker 2: Well, they fired the people who enforced the Hatch Act.
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  Speaker 3: Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: So that's no longer an issue.
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  Speaker 5: But I mean, the lawlessness and the sort of wanton.
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  Speaker 6: The lawlessness and the the rules not applying to them
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  Speaker 6: are really being, you know, it ratchets up to like
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  Speaker 6: a degree that we haven't seen before in typical fights.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 6: Like they will weaponize every part of the federal bureaucracy
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  Speaker 6: to have a partisan fight with Democrats. They have a
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  Speaker 6: president who's utterly reckless and they have.
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  Speaker 5: A real sociopath.
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  Speaker 6: Who's picking and choosing which blue states to fuck over hardest,
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  Speaker 6: given an opportunity to shrink the federal workforce in a
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  Speaker 6: period of government shutdown.
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  Speaker 5: So I do.
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  Speaker 6: Think they have some real leverage here. Having said that,
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  Speaker 6: I mean, Dan, the polling is good for Democrats on
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  Speaker 6: the issue of health care for right now.
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  Speaker 5: And I think, again, I go back to what I
• 9:05
  Speaker 5: said at the beginning.
• 9:06
  Speaker 6: I think it's good that that's what the stories have
• 9:08
  Speaker 6: to lead with. This is why Democrats are doing this,
• 9:10
  Speaker 6: because this is the reality for Democrats. Many people, if
• 9:14
  Speaker 6: not the majority of Americans who are on either the
• 9:17
  Speaker 6: exchanges or whose insurance premiums are going to rise, which
• 9:20
  Speaker 6: is like everybody who's in a pool that's affected by
• 9:22
  Speaker 6: fewer healthy people being in the pool.
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: So is a lot of the country.
• 9:25
  Speaker 6: So, you know, I think they at least for the
• 9:29
  Speaker 6: moment have a hand to play and on an issue
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  Speaker 6: that really matters.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, they obviously have the substantive upper hand here, right?
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: They're the ones who get to decide what goes on
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: the websites. They can change the White House comment line
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: to be Caroline Leavitt's voice attacking Democrats, as they have done.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: They can make threats like a bunch of two-bit mafiosos
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: about how they're going to hurt these people or hurt
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: that people. It's like, really nice government you have there.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Too bad you shut it down. Now we can destroy it.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: They can do all of that stuff. But I do
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: think Republicans think they can only win and Democrats think
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: they can't win, sort of in our mentality. And you
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: can see it in the body language of Democrats in this. Like,
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: A lot of people, I mean, there are exceptions, but
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: a lot of the people who are out there speaking,
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: it feels like they were either dragged into this or
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: they're just waiting around until the bottom falls out and
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: we lose. And I think the Democrats have a much
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: stronger hand here than we think. One, we're doing this
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: over an incredibly popular issue. I mean, one, we have
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: an advantage on health care. It's the one issue we
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: have an advantage on these days. But on the specific
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: question of extending the Obamacare tax credits, there was a
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Kaiser Family Foundation poll from earlier this summer. which showed
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: that huge majorities of people, one of them extended, large
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: majorities of Republicans, and a narrow majority of self-identified MAGA
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Republicans think they should be extended. There was a Washington
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Post poll out this morning, which shows that on the
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: question of who's responsible for this shutdown, 17% more people
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: think it's Trump and the Republicans than Democrats. And that's
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: consistent with a bunch of polls we saw before. It
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: could change now that we're in it. But I think
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: every Democrat seems to think that we are in a
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: messaging fight or political fight against the Donald Trump that
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: won the popular vote in all seven battleground states in 2024.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: That is not the case. Donald Trump's poll numbers today
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: are not good. All the people he made grounds with,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: if you look at the New York Times-Siena poll from
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: this past weekend, or sorry, when you look at the
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: New York Times-Siena poll from earlier this week, have abandoned him.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: His games with young people, gone. His game with Latinos, gone.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: His games with non-white, non-college-educated voters, gone. And so Donald
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Trump's approval rating right now at this exact moment in time,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: is almost exactly what it was the week before the
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: 2018 elections when Democrats picked up 40 seats. If we
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: were in a shutdown fight with that Donald Trump in
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: October of 2018, we would have thought we would kick
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: his ass. And so we do have to adjust our mentality.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: There's a learned helplessness in how Democrats are approaching this.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Some Democrats, I think, are approaching this to think we
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: can't beat this guy. We can't win. We're too inept.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: We're too insecure in our position. And I think we
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: actually can, but we have to have the winning mentality
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: to do it. Does that make you feel any better?
• 12:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, totally. Can you just put that on my voicemail
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: so I can play it like.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Tomorrow or next Monday?
• 12:13
  Speaker 5: We will add it to the Crooked Comment Line. That's
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: what we need.
• 12:17
  Speaker 6: But also it gets at kind of beliefs that the
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: American public hold about each party. And I think that
• 12:22
  Speaker 6: Democrats have an advantage there, right? Like it is sort
• 12:25
  Speaker 6: of a truism in American politics that Democrats care more
• 12:29
  Speaker 6: about people.
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: Sometimes that comes back to bite them in the ass.
• 12:32
  Speaker 6: They're seen as caring about too many people or too
• 12:35
  Speaker 6: small a group of people in too big a fashion
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: or caring over being strategic with the nation's finances or
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: whatever it is. I'm not saying any of that's necessarily true,
• 12:45
  Speaker 6: but the impression widely and deeply held is that Democrats
• 12:49
  Speaker 6: care more about the health and welfare of the American public,
• 12:52
  Speaker 6: and they are fighting a battle on that territory. I
• 12:56
  Speaker 6: think that's how you win, right? Like you don't have
• 12:58
  Speaker 6: to reinvent the wheel here. People understand this to be
• 13:00
  Speaker 6: something that's a priority for the party. And it's a
• 13:03
  Speaker 6: natural extension of party priorities for them to be fighting
• 13:05
  Speaker 6: this fight. They don't have to pretend to be anything
• 13:08
  Speaker 6: that they aren't. And so they should take an advantage
• 13:10
  Speaker 6: of that.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: As you mentioned, three Democrats have been peeled off. Catherine
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Cortez Masto, John Fetterman, and Angus King, an independent caucus
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: with Democrats, all voted to open the government the last
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: time there was a vote. Are you worried that Democrats
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: could fold before too long, or do you think Schumer
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: can keep them in line?
• 13:29
  Speaker 5: I mean, how fast can you record that voicemail and
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: send it out?
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: That's right. That's a good point. Send me back to
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: the Senate caucus, people.
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: Get him back up on the Hill.
• 13:37
  Speaker 6: They've been saying, where's Pfeiffer on the Hill? I think
• 13:43
  Speaker 6: the fact, I just want to say, I think the
• 13:45
  Speaker 6: fact that Schumer and Jeffries are even doing this is
• 13:48
  Speaker 6: a testament to the degree to which they want to
• 13:51
  Speaker 6: hold the coalition together. They're doing this because progressives... We're like,
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: we're not fucking doing this again. We need to extract something.
• 13:58
  Speaker 6: We need to fight. We need to have a backbone.
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: We need to go.
• 14:00
  Speaker 6: And I think that they should be, you know, I
• 14:02
  Speaker 6: think there should be some acknowledgement of the fact that they,
• 14:05
  Speaker 6: you know, they're really trying to hold the party together
• 14:07
  Speaker 6: and they're doing something that is gutsy, right?
• 14:09
  Speaker 9: I mean.
• 14:11
  Speaker 5: And very risky, high risk, high reward.
• 14:13
  Speaker 6: So that's a positive, I think, data point in all
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: of this, that leadership is, you know, willing to take
• 14:23
  Speaker 6: some risks in the sake of sort of preventing intra-party
• 14:28
  Speaker 6: mutiny and holding folks together. I think the pressure is
• 14:31
  Speaker 6: going to be extraordinary. I think John Thune is going
• 14:33
  Speaker 6: to keep calling for votes on this every day. And
• 14:36
  Speaker 6: he's going to try and smoke out one more Democratic member.
• 14:40
  Speaker 6: And it's going to be an enormous strain on the coalition.
• 14:43
  Speaker 6: But listen, this is where all. you know, facets of
• 14:45
  Speaker 6: the democratic coalition from activists, grassroots voters, you know, people
• 14:49
  Speaker 6: that care about the future of this, our society collectively,
• 14:54
  Speaker 6: they need to make their voices heard as much.
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, right.
• 14:57
  Speaker 6: It can't just be a battle that's fought by the
• 14:59
  Speaker 6: lone soldier soldiers on the hill.
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: Like, I really feel like this is where people who are.
• 15:04
  Speaker 6: Listening to this podcast and people who give a shit
• 15:06
  Speaker 6: about their parents and their parents' healthcare and their healthcare
• 15:09
  Speaker 6: in the future are need to be part of keeping
• 15:12
  Speaker 6: the sort of beach ball in the air, to use
• 15:14
  Speaker 6: a weird Club Med metaphor.
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: And, like, if that can happen, it will give them strength.
• 15:21
  Speaker 6: But, like, the more we second-guess the strategy and say
• 15:23
  Speaker 6: it's a losing hand and say, you know, they're going
• 15:26
  Speaker 6: to cave, the easier it will be for them to
• 15:28
  Speaker 6: cave because they're, you know, on the front lines and
• 15:30
  Speaker 6: Republicans are going to use every tactic they can to
• 15:33
  Speaker 6: try and fracture the coalition and they don't need that
• 15:35
  Speaker 6: many more votes.
• 15:37
  Speaker 10: Though, it.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: There's always a fear that Democrats will capitulate. That is possible.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Senate Republicans also have capitulated and shut down. Senators generally
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: are uncomfortable with all this. They'd rather be doing something,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: or at least previous generations of Republican senators would rather
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: be doing something than shutting down the government. But there
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: are some dynamics that lend themselves to staying in the fight.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: One is the last time there was a shutdown that
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Democrats initiated, it was the We call it the Waffle
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: House shutdown over here at Crooked Media, but it was
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: in 2018, I think. Yes. It was in 2018 to
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: try to demand that Trump help the Dreamers, and Democrats
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: folded over the weekend. Now, what led to the surrender
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: that time was there were a whole bunch of Democrats
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: in tough seats who were up for election in 2018,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and they had won in no part of this. In
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: this situation, you only have one incumbent Democrat in a
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: very tough race. And that is John Ossoff in Georgia.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: And he seems to be fully on board with the strategy.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: And so you're not going to get that sort of
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: pressure because the other people that are like targeting who
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: could bail is like Jean Shaheen, who's retiring. And it's like,
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: is she really going to... Because she voted the last
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: time to keep the government open. Is she really going
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: to do that again? It's like, I've seen people who
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: are retiring take a tough vote to help other members.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: I'm not really sure who she's helping here, if John
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Ossoff is okay with this. And so that... That does help.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: And the way that Trump and the Republicans are overplaying
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: their hands so much, they're refusing to negotiate as we'll
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: get to trying to exert pain on as many people
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: as possible. That doesn't help. That hardens people's positions, doesn't
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: soften them. So I don't know if I'm being Pollyannish
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: about this, but I think that Democrats are willing to
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: stay in this for a while because Trump is already
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: screwing over doing all these terrible things when the government
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: was open. So it's not like there's like one world
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: where the grass is really green and there's a world
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: we're in. It kind of sucks in both places. And
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: so I think there's a chance that Democrats could stick.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: And I think they probably also understand that Schumer has
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: a lot of stake in this. And if they bail
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: before he does, then he will– like he's already– his
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: poll numbers are already terrible Democrats. He has a potential
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: primary in 2028. they would be doing him a great
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: disservice and sort of an act of disloyalty if they
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: abandoned the fight before he did.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: And the fact that he got into a fight is
• 18:08
  Speaker 6: a testament to the degree to which he wants to.
• 18:10
  Speaker 6: The word isn't appease, but like I said, he is
• 18:13
  Speaker 6: trying to be a unifying figure in all this. So
• 18:15
  Speaker 6: maybe don't mutiny against the captain.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Do you have any ideas on how this possibly ends,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: other than the government stays shut down indefinitely?
• 18:25
  Speaker 6: Dan Pfeiffer's voicemail is going to change this. I mean,
• 18:30
  Speaker 6: I guess the best case scenario is the White House
• 18:36
  Speaker 6: offering a deal on extending ACA subsidies and the government opens, reopens,
• 18:42
  Speaker 6: and everybody tries to take credit. I mean, I feel
• 18:44
  Speaker 6: like the fact that the White House is making overtures towards,
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: you know, how much the president cares about health care
• 18:50
  Speaker 6: by negotiating with Pfizer or whatever, you know, these sort
• 18:52
  Speaker 6: of fig leaves that they're offering to the American public
• 18:54
  Speaker 6: as rejoinders to the contention that the White House is
• 18:58
  Speaker 6: populated by cruel people who don't care about Americans and
• 19:02
  Speaker 6: their health care. That's a testament to they know this
• 19:06
  Speaker 6: is an issue that they could lose on. So maybe
• 19:08
  Speaker 6: there's some deal to be made there. But I mean,
• 19:10
  Speaker 6: I don't think that this is going to reframe, you know,
• 19:13
  Speaker 6: I think an important part of this, if you're in
• 19:15
  Speaker 6: the legislative branch, is an assurance that the shit you
• 19:17
  Speaker 6: pass in Congress doesn't just get overridden by the president.
• 19:20
  Speaker 6: And they're trying to stop that process from happening again.
• 19:22
  Speaker 6: The rescission nonsense. Because, like, what's the point of Congress
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: if the president can just be like, yeah, you know what,
• 19:28
  Speaker 6: never mind, whatever you did, that doesn't count. I don't
• 19:32
  Speaker 6: think that's going to get solved in this. I just
• 19:34
  Speaker 6: have a very hard time that Trump or the Republicans
• 19:36
  Speaker 6: are going to accede to that demand at all in
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: any way.
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: But, I mean, I'm hopeful.
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: I'm hopeful that some kind of semi-sanity and mutual vested
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: interest in this can lead to some movement unilaterally. on
• 19:50
  Speaker 6: the ACA and everybody can just agree that they're going
• 19:52
  Speaker 6: to take credit for it and pretend like it was
• 19:54
  Speaker 6: their handiwork and that it's, you know, the Democrats get
• 19:56
  Speaker 6: something meaningful and good out of it and don't harm
• 19:59
  Speaker 6: the party in the process and maybe are emboldened to
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: take big moves the next time there's an important fight.
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: I guess that's my hope. That's my hope. But I don't,
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: I mean like, or the filibuster could end and this
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: could be.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Like another disaster. That is one option. The Republicans could,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: they could end the filibuster to, to pass this bill.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: And they took like somewhat unprecedented moves around the big,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: beautiful bill, which were kind of akin to eliminate, to deal, to,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: they were basically, they were willing to go nuclear in
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: some ways to get the big, beautiful bill, the budget bill,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it, out. They could do
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: that here. Trump does not like the filibuster. I'm not
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: sure there are enough votes among the Republican caucus to
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: do that right yet, but maybe weeks from now, that
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: could possibly be the case. I think one possible outcome here,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: and this is once again, me possibly being Pollyannish, which
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: is something I've never.
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: Done on this podcast before.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: I don't think of you as a Pollyanna-like figure, Jim.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: No one does.
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: But hey, I'm happy to have you wear that crown.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Maybe. I don't know what it is today. I
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: don't know. Slept better last night than the night before.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: It must be you. It is the true pleasure of
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: doing this podcast with someone other than Jon Favreau has
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: turned me into a glass half full kind of guy.
• 21:07
  Speaker 5: Lightness in your heart.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay. Yes.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: So one way this possibly ends is that Trump becomes
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: convinced that extending these tax credits is good for him.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:20
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Earlier this summer, a memo went around that showed just
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: how critical it was to for Republicans' chances in the
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: midterms to extend these tax credits. The author of that memo,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: or one of the two authors of that memo, was
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Tony Fabrizio, his pollster, who obviously is working for the
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: insurance companies on some sort of insurance company-funded project to
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: get this done. But if he sees that this is
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: good for him politically, or the increase in premiums is
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: bad for him politically and could hurt the chance of
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: the midterms, then you could see him cutting a deal
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: and trying to take credit for it. That is one
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: possible way to say it.
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: I feel like that's our best case scenario, right?
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably the best case scenario. Now, there are
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: some questions here. Like, do they open the government for
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: some period of time, a week, two weeks, a month,
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: till after the Christmas holidays to have a negotiation around
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: this to try to get something done? Like, is that
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: what happens? And then we're right back at it? Because
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: once they get the CR, they still have to theoretically
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: come to a longer-term budget agreement to actually fund the
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: government for more than some short period of time. And
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: that's the point where they're going to have to have
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: the rescission conversation. If there's going to be anything other
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: than short-term CRs ad finitum, then you're going to have
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: to have some provision which says the president cannot unilaterally
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: undo this deal. Because there is something very, very wrong
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: with a budget process that requires 60 votes to pass
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: the budget, but 50 votes to undo the deal.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: And so we'll have to see how that goes. But
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I think there's a chance, if Democrats hang in there
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: and they message better, and we'll get to the messaging
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: in a bit, I think there's a world in which
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: they could come away with a victory here of some kind.
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: Listen, Dan, I just hope that my jam band, CR's
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: Forever Ad Infinitum, like never takes off.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying? What a sentence I just uttered.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: It just really... My brain is broken.
• 23:30
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• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Let's turn to the man that has the power to
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: make this shutdown as painful as possible for Democrats and frankly,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: every American. Russ Vogt, the former architect of Project 2025,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: turned OMB director and Trump met with Vote earlier today
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: to discuss which, quote, Democrat agencies Vote would permanently cut
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: during the shutdown. Vote has also threatened mass firings at
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: federal agencies and said that layoffs would begin in a
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: day or two. Additionally, Vote immediately froze $ 8 billion in
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: funding for a series of binary clean energy infrastructure projects
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: in predominantly blue states, as well as $ 18 billion in
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: funding for an infrastructure project in New York City, which
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: happens to be the home of Democratic leaders Hakeem Jeffries
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: and Chuck Schumer's. For all intents and purposes, Russ Vogt
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: appears to be relishing the opportunity a shutdown presents, something
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Senator Mike Lee says he's been planning for quite some time.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Let's take a listen.
• 26:12
  Speaker 11: This is what they're doing.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: They're doing it deliberately. It's going to harm them.
• 26:15
  Speaker 11: Because Russ Vogt, the OMB director, has been dreaming about
• 26:19
  Speaker 11: this moment, preparing this moment since puberty. Russ Vogt has
• 26:23
  Speaker 11: a plan, and that plan is going to succeed in empowering,
• 26:26
  Speaker 11: further empowering Trump. This is going to be the Democrats'
• 26:29
  Speaker 11: worst nightmare, and it's of their own making.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: Alex, do you want to unpack what Senator Mike Lee
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: has to say here about Russ Vogt and his motivations?
• 26:37
  Speaker 6: Thanks for putting the image of Russ Vogt in puberty
• 26:41
  Speaker 6: in my mind, Mike Lee.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Don't thank me.
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: Can't unsee that.
• 26:46
  Speaker 6: Also, doesn't that explain it all? Like, oh, this is
• 26:49
  Speaker 6: what Russ Vogt was thinking about during puberty?
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah.
• 26:52
  Speaker 6: That explains today's modern Republican Party, right? That's what you
• 26:56
  Speaker 6: were thinking of in those crucial, critical developmental years, slashing
• 27:00
  Speaker 6: the size of the federal government.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I think he's essentially suggesting that for Russ' vote, this
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: is sexual.
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: This is a wet dream. Let's just say it's a
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: wet dream. I'm sorry I said these things. Can we
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: delete it? I don't know.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Can I unsay it? Did we just name the podcast?
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: Gross.
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: I've barfed in my mind. This is the problem, right?
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: I mean, first of all, this is not normal.
• 27:30
  Speaker 6: It is not normal to be torturing commuters in New
• 27:34
  Speaker 6: Jersey and New York and punishing 220,000 workers in California
• 27:37
  Speaker 6: and targeting Minnesota's workers. Energy grid. Like, that's what's happening here.
• 27:47
  Speaker 6: This is, like, wanton and cruel and highly unusual to
• 27:51
  Speaker 6: have some, let's call him a weird guy who has
• 27:55
  Speaker 6: had a passion, a zeal, an anti-bureaucratic, anti-federal government, anti-I
• 28:01
  Speaker 6: don't know, just... a zealot at the OMB giving him
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: free reign to wreak havoc and own the libs in
• 28:09
  Speaker 6: the most potentially disastrous fashion as it concerns the role
• 28:13
  Speaker 6: of the federal government and its impact on American lives.
• 28:16
  Speaker 6: These are projects that will make us resilient, energy independent,
• 28:20
  Speaker 6: clean the air, make us competitive internationally with superpowers that
• 28:25
  Speaker 6: are in many ways way ahead of us. This is
• 28:28
  Speaker 6: literally shooting ourselves in the feet, hurting us. because you
• 28:33
  Speaker 6: just want to like, just because torture is fun. This
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: is like the, the, the, the, the Republican fiscal hog
• 28:40
  Speaker 6: version of like finding someone's cat and skinning it.
• 28:43
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: Like this is not, it is. I'm sorry.
• 28:47
  Speaker 6: It's like the wet dream, the skin cat. It's also disgusting.
• 28:50
  Speaker 6: Everybody's turned this podcast off. So you can, I can
• 28:52
  Speaker 6: just like get real, but it is, it is so foul.
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: And I don't think we should let the cruelty that
• 28:57
  Speaker 6: is inherent in all of this go unnoticed. Um, And
• 29:02
  Speaker 6: like at the same time, it's deeply problematic, right? This
• 29:05
  Speaker 6: is what I mean about playing chicken with a group
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: of people who have been like just dying to gun
• 29:10
  Speaker 6: the engine and drive the car off the cliff.
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: Like this is Russell.
• 29:13
  Speaker 6: Vogt sitting there like twiddling his fingers and deciding which
• 29:17
  Speaker 6: blue state and which lib program to unwind and like kneecap.
• 29:22
  Speaker 6: next and that's scary um this is a project he's
• 29:25
  Speaker 6: had in mind for for you know project 2025 turns
• 29:29
  Speaker 6: out it's totally real dan and that guy is now
• 29:33
  Speaker 6: pulling the levers so i mean i find the whole
• 29:35
  Speaker 6: thing terrifying and not just because this is the fantasy
• 29:37
  Speaker 6: he's had since puberty yeah.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: It's it it is worth noting that throughout the entire campaign,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump, the Republicans are like, Project 2025 is a hoax.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: And then Donald Trump truths out today, I'm meeting with
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: the head of Project 2025, Russ Vogt. Exactly. Oh, you
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: were full of shit then. I see. I see. I think...
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: These guys, I think Russ Vogt and Donald Trump, the
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: rest of these guys are either full of shit or
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: they're dumb as hell. Because you can cut all these
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: programs for blue states. You can theoretically do that because
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: the Supreme Court will let Donald Trump do anything. But
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: guess who's up in November?
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: It's not Chuck Schumer in New York. It's Mike Lawler
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: and a bunch of very vulnerable House Republicans. The House
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: is going to be decided in blue states.
• 30:25
  Speaker 10: Yep.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: And so if they want to use this opportunity to
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: attack blue states, that is going to be such a self-defeating,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: stupid thing to do, which I think they are trying
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: to talk a tough game to try to convince Democrats
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: to fold here. If you read the fine print, a
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: lot of what they're doing is freezing funding. In the
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: case of the New York infrastructure project, they're doing a
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: DEI review of the funding, and they can't do it
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: because they furloughed all the civil rights people who do
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: DEI reviews. And so I do think they are a
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: little bit of trying to talk tough here to try
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: to scare Democrats. There's also real legal questions. There's a
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: report today in the Washington Post that the agency– lawyers
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: have told, have told the cabinet secretaries, you probably don't
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: want to do these layoffs because it probably violates the law.
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: Although that hasn't stopped them in the past, but you know, yeah.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: They might, I mean, they, they might fire them. Like
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: they might fire them. A court may put them back.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Another court may undo them.
• 31:23
  Speaker 6: And then we go to the Supreme court and that outcome,
• 31:26
  Speaker 6: we sort of know what happens there.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: But once again, they're, they are talking a better game
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: than the hand.
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: They're actually, I mean, even the.
• 31:32
  Speaker 6: Talk is sick. Like this isn't how it's supposed to work.
• 31:35
  Speaker 6: You don't get to do this. You don't get to
• 31:37
  Speaker 6: just torture people as a partisan mechanism. And I, I,
• 31:41
  Speaker 6: I just think it's, it's to see the glee, even
• 31:45
  Speaker 6: in that Mike Lee clip, the joy, right.
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: It's so, it's so, it's so cruel. It's so dark.
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: It's so fucked up. And like, it shouldn't be, it just,
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: I mean, I just, I, I marinate in, in, in, in, in.
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: Just the sort of precedent that sets and the sort of,
• 32:02
  Speaker 6: the new age of this Republican Party.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: Back in April, when Democrats decided to fund the government,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: one of Schumer's big arguments was he was very worried
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: that vote would do to the government agencies exactly what
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: he's doing right now during the shutdown. Does this give
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: you any second thoughts about this strategy?
• 32:22
  Speaker 6: I mean, I have second thoughts about the strategy all
• 32:24
  Speaker 6: the time. And at the same time, I think it
• 32:26
  Speaker 6: was the only strategy that could have been pursued. You know,
• 32:29
  Speaker 6: I I just think.
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: I have a real.
• 32:34
  Speaker 6: Aversion to business as usual because nothing here is normal.
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: And it could blow up in everyone's face. But I
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: do think you have to try and do something bold
• 32:49
  Speaker 6: and different, something that sort of resets the conversation.
• 32:54
  Speaker 5: You know, it's risky. I have no idea what Russ
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: vote's going to be able to do.
• 32:58
  Speaker 6: I think that you make a really important and astute
• 33:01
  Speaker 6: point about how politically this could be costly on just
• 33:04
  Speaker 6: a policy level and then a political level. And you
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: have to hold on to that in a moment like this.
• 33:09
  Speaker 5: We're just in terra incognito. So like, yeah, I mean.
• 33:12
  Speaker 6: Maybe Chuck Schumer was right, but the last time Chuck
• 33:14
  Speaker 6: Schumer saved Republican asses, that didn't go over so well either.
• 33:17
  Speaker 6: And it's like, we can't keep, like, Democrats can't keep
• 33:20
  Speaker 6: doing the same thing over and over again because the
• 33:22
  Speaker 6: administration is acting with impunity.
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: And this is the.
• 33:25
  Speaker 6: First time there's a little bit of soft shoe back
• 33:28
  Speaker 6: and forth with Democrats over an issue that really matters.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there is, there is no risk-free options here, right?
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: As we saw from funding the government, there was great
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: risk in that. I think of all the things that
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: happened With government funding since the Democrats funded it this spring.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: It is like you just have to be willing to
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: take some risks. And if you truly believe we are
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: in an extraordinary time facing an extraordinary threat, then you
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: have to respond in kind. You can't respond in just simple,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: ordinary politics. And you're right. This could go Terribly. It
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: absolutely could go terribly. It could go terribly politically. It
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: could go terribly substantively. It's bad for the economy. There
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: are people who are going to be hurt. But things
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: are not going great the other way either, and you
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: just have to take risks. I don't know what the
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: downside is here. I know there is some upside. In
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: the alternative universe where you just decided not to fight
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: and funded the government through the election, I know exactly
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: what the downside is, and I know there's no upside.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: So this seems to be the– you need in these
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: moments to have a high-variance strategy, and this is a
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: high-variance strategy– Even like we're playing with live ammo here.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Like I want to be very clear about that. Like
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: I remember sitting in the White House going through all
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: the damage from the shutdown. It is very real. We
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: take it very seriously. But you also, on the other hand,
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: have 15 million people whose premiums are going to skyrocket
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: and they're not going to be able to. go to
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: the drugstore and get medicines. They're not gonna be able
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: to go to the doctor.
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: People will- They'll go bankrupt because of chemotherapy, as AOC
• 34:59
  Speaker 6: explains to us.
• 35:00
  Speaker 5: This is very real.
• 35:01
  Speaker 6: And I will say, as someone that spent a lot
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: of time with furloughed federal workers in the last prolonged
• 35:06
  Speaker 6: government shutdown, people who had been working for the federal
• 35:09
  Speaker 6: government for decades, who were in line at soup kitchens
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: to get canned food because they could no longer afford
• 35:17
  Speaker 6: their groceries.
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: There is a group of.
• 35:18
  Speaker 6: People who are doing the hard work of government who
• 35:22
  Speaker 6: are going to get real fucked for every day this
• 35:24
  Speaker 6: goes on.
• 35:25
  Speaker 5: And those lives are real. Those people are real.
• 35:27
  Speaker 6: And man, it is a thankless job, especially right now,
• 35:30
  Speaker 6: filled with peril. So like, you know, my heart and
• 35:34
  Speaker 6: my thoughts go out to like the reality they're living
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: as well.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, just think about that. Some of these people
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: were told when they left their offices on Wednesday, or
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: on Tuesday, I guess, in anticipation of the shutdown on Wednesday,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: to bring their work phones with them so that they
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: could get a notice about layoffs if one were to come.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Like, imagine the anxiety that gets people. Because the whole point, like,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: if you're working for the government, you're going to have
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: great benefits and you're going to have job security. But
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: you're going to make less money than people would make
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: for doing similar jobs in the private sector in many cases.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: And now you have your job secured. Now you live
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: constantly on the precipice of losing your job. At any moment,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: one of these MAGA doge goons can just fire you,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: undermining a lot of why you took that job. It's
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: a terrible, terrible situation. I will just know- And as
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: part of this fight, we should try to protect these people, right?
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: That's one of the things we're trying to do.
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: The reason my mother came over here is because my
• 36:33
  Speaker 6: grandmother was offered a job with the Library of Congress.
• 36:37
  Speaker 6: And the US government- got my family out of Burma,
• 36:41
  Speaker 6: got my grandmother a job. And like the reason I'm
• 36:43
  Speaker 6: on this earth in some ways is because of the
• 36:46
  Speaker 6: federal bureaucracy and federal government work. And that was like
• 36:50
  Speaker 6: one of the best periods of her life. They were
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: saved from a country that was, you know, and continues
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: to be in the middle of chaos because of government work.
• 36:59
  Speaker 6: And it was good work and it was important work.
• 37:02
  Speaker 6: And it like offered her a pension and, And just
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: to see how those workers are treated now and the
• 37:10
  Speaker 6: gutting of that service is just so sad and also shameful,
• 37:15
  Speaker 6: because it's one of the things that I think has
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: made this country great.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: In the absence of negotiations, the shutdown surely becomes simply
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: a messaging exercise. Which side can exert enough political pain
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: on the other to force compromise or surrender? The Republicans
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: have been out in full force all week, consistently pushing
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: their admittedly ridiculous talking points about Democratic demands. Let's listen.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: The Democrats said instead.
• 37:34
  Speaker 11: that they wanted to give healthcare to illegal aliens instead
• 37:38
  Speaker 11: of keeping critical services.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Provided for the American citizens. That's what happened. plain and simple.
• 37:43
  Speaker 12: What they have done instead is to shut down the
• 37:45
  Speaker 12: government because we won't give billions of dollars to healthcare
• 37:48
  Speaker 12: funding for illegal aliens. That is what has actually happened.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: They are holding our country hostage.
• 37:53
  Speaker 11: They are holding the American people hostage for this wildly.
• 37:56
  Speaker 12: Unpopular proposal to give taxpayer-funded benefits to illegals. And now
• 38:00
  Speaker 12: they're lying about it and they know it.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Democratic messaging has been a bit all over the map.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Some are talking about healthcare. Some are trying to pin
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: the blame for the shutdown on the GOP. Others are
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: very mad about some racist AI videos. As just one example,
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: the Democrats' official TikTok account posted a video explaining the
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: shutdown using cats. One bright spot, though, has been this
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: great video AOC and Bernie Sanders put out of them
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: explaining their view on the shutdown. Let's take a listen.
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: Why didn't you vote for this clean CR to keep
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: the government open?
• 38:30
  Speaker 7: Well, there's nothing clean about it. This is one of
• 38:32
  Speaker 7: the dirtiest tricks that is being pulled on the American
• 38:36
  Speaker 7: people right now. Starting today, October 1st, and throughout the
• 38:40
  Speaker 7: rest of the month, Americans across this country are going
• 38:44
  Speaker 7: to start getting notifications that their insurance premiums are up
• 38:48
  Speaker 7: to doubling.
• 38:50
  Speaker 10: A time when we are already paying by far the
• 38:53
  Speaker 10: highest prices in the world for health care at a
• 38:57
  Speaker 10: time when people can't afford it right now.
• 38:59
  Speaker 7: So Republicans want us to rubber stamp that.
• 39:02
  Speaker 5: And we're saying no.
• 39:04
  Speaker 7: We need to stand up for the American people. We
• 39:06
  Speaker 7: need to stand up for our health care system. And
• 39:09
  Speaker 7: if they want our votes... They need to make sure
• 39:11
  Speaker 7: that we're protecting every American and making sure that we
• 39:14
  Speaker 7: can do what we can to continue to make health
• 39:17
  Speaker 7: care accessible, affordable as we work to make it a
• 39:20
  Speaker 7: human right for all.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: All right, let's start with the Republicans. Alex, can you
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: just set the record straight on why their claims about
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: healthcare for illegal aliens is complete and utter bullshit?
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: People who do not have their papers to be here
• 39:32
  Speaker 6: cannot access federally funded healthcare. They are not eligible for Medicaid, Medicare.
• 39:37
  Speaker 6: They can't go on the ACA exchanges and buy healthcare.
• 39:40
  Speaker 6: There is a small group of migrants or immigrants who
• 39:43
  Speaker 6: are here who are considered lawfully present who have access
• 39:45
  Speaker 6: to this. But there is no world in which Democrats
• 39:48
  Speaker 6: are fighting to get undocumented immigrants access to federally funded
• 39:51
  Speaker 6: health care.
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: It is a lie.
• 39:53
  Speaker 6: It is also the most obvious, like, they're running the
• 39:57
  Speaker 6: only play they have, really, in moments of, you know, crisis,
• 40:01
  Speaker 6: which is talk about illegals. Just like, if something's going bad, like,
• 40:06
  Speaker 6: talk about illegals. And this is, you know, like, the
• 40:10
  Speaker 6: people who were lawfully present in this country were who
• 40:13
  Speaker 6: were able to access some federally funded health care of
• 40:16
  Speaker 6: people like refugees, people who have papers to be here temporarily,
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: DACA recipients.
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: This is a small group of people.
• 40:24
  Speaker 6: Who were made ineligible under the last funding bill or
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: under the build back, under the one big, beautiful, God,
• 40:30
  Speaker 6: can we just call it something else?
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: It's called the Republican Budget Bill.
• 40:33
  Speaker 5: The Republican Budget Bill.
• 40:35
  Speaker 6: And Democrats are seeking to restore their eligibility, but they
• 40:38
  Speaker 6: are by no means trying to create a new set
• 40:41
  Speaker 6: of subsidies or access to health care for people who
• 40:44
  Speaker 6: do not have papers to be in the country legally.
• 40:46
  Speaker 6: And it's a lie. And it's also race baiting. And
• 40:49
  Speaker 6: it's also just the, you know, more of the Republican
• 40:52
  Speaker 6: bullshit to distract from what they're really trying to do,
• 40:54
  Speaker 6: which is make, you know, redistribute income to the top,
• 40:58
  Speaker 6: you know, 0.01% and make everybody else pay for it.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a couple things here. One, if Donald Trump
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: had a poker tell, it would be when he starts
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: lying about immigrants.
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: That's a sign when he knows he's in trouble in
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: some way, shape, or form. That was the caravan in 2018.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: I know everyone thinks they have the strongest hand, but
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: this lie is so just bold and brazen and it's–
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Like they can't even go on regular to talk to
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: actual reporters without getting just massacred on it, right? Like
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: it just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. It also
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: really– it's a real window into what they truly believe,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: which is any immigrant, anyone who's here has legal status
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: is not a real person. They're inhumane. They do not count.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: They like to pretend like, oh, we're fine with legal immigration.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: It's illegal immigration we don't like. But in this case,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: they are treating people who are here legally for an
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: array of programs and saying they should not have access.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: They should not be here. We're going to just call
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: them illegal. They're just lying about people because that's what–
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: in their mind, someone who's here legally, went through the process,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: who waited in line, filed a legitimate amnesty claim, came
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: over here for humanitarian reasons because what's happening in Ukraine
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: or Afghanistan or any of that, that they are exactly
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: the same as someone who crossed the border illegally. That's
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: the same. That is what is in their head. That
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: is the unspoken truth to their actual position.
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: And why are they the same, Dan? Why are they
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: the same? Because they weren't born here. Basically, it's nativism.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: And they're not white because we're welcoming the South African
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: immigrants here, the white South African immigrants here.
• 42:55
  Speaker 5: Afrikaners.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: That's another conversation for another time.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: Yes. Do you have any worry the American people will
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: buy this bullshit?
• 43:04
  Speaker 6: I don't think so. I actually think this is one
• 43:06
  Speaker 6: where it's like, huh? I mean, nobody's talking about that.
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: Democrats have, like, it's, again, this goes back to, like,
• 43:12
  Speaker 6: I think one of the structural advantages Democrats have in
• 43:15
  Speaker 6: this fight is, like, they are seen as a party
• 43:17
  Speaker 6: that gives a shit about the sick and the poor
• 43:20
  Speaker 6: and health care.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: Like, it's called Obamacare. You know what I mean? Like,
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: it's a party plank.
• 43:25
  Speaker 6: And the Democrats are saying unanimously and with one voice,
• 43:29
  Speaker 6: this is about fighting for, you know, ensuring that costs
• 43:34
  Speaker 6: don't go up on insurance premiums and people have access
• 43:36
  Speaker 6: to health care. And I think the canard that this is,
• 43:41
  Speaker 6: you know, Democrats trying to pay for, you know, trans
• 43:46
  Speaker 6: undocumented migrants, like health care is so it's such a
• 43:50
  Speaker 6: convoluted and pathetic and destructive narrative. I just I have
• 43:56
  Speaker 6: more faith in the American people. And I just don't
• 43:57
  Speaker 6: think it takes it's already baked in. Like, I think
• 44:01
  Speaker 6: people understand why Democrats are fighting this fight because they've
• 44:03
  Speaker 6: basically been fighting this fight since I was five, you know?
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: Like, this has been going on for a while.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think... I'm not sure this is a believable
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: claim that they would actually do this. To the extent
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: that you... where it has some potential efficacy, it's in
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: this idea that Democrats are extreme on immigration issues. This is,
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: you know, this is sort of a similar reason why the.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: That really infamous gross trans ad about Kamala Harris was effective.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: It was not that people really thought that she was
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: actually going to support taxpayer-funded gender-affirming care for undocumented people
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: in prison. It was that this is an indication that
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: she's out of touch. And so they're trying to play
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: into that stereotype. I just don't think this is their
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: best argument. This is the argument that gets their base
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: fired up. Their base is already fired up. This is
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: the argument that gets Fox News all fired up. Fox
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: News is already fired up. If they have an actual
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: political task here, it's that most people think the Republicans
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: are in the wrong here. They think they're in the
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: wrong on the shutdown, that they're actually responsible for this
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: because they control all of government and are unwilling to negotiate.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: And they think that they're wrong on the policy issue.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: And so they're having an argument that is– not of
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: a piece of what the actual conversation is. And like this,
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: sometimes I, you know, you've been on it. I do
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: this recently returned YouTube show, Political Experts React, where we
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: look at political ads and content. And the ads that
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: come from Republicans are often like they have Fox News
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: brain on it, which is you can tell that the
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: person who made the ad gets all of their information
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: of right-wing media. So they're making an ad that speaks
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: to that audience. And I think this argument is a
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: little akin to that.
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: Well, and I also think, you know, people can be.
• 45:41
  Speaker 6: If it's an issue like immigration that doesn't necessarily touch
• 45:44
  Speaker 6: people at the kitchen table, they can be lied to
• 45:48
  Speaker 6: or the truth.
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: Can be muddied.
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: But people give a shit about their health care premiums.
• 45:53
  Speaker 6: People give a shit about their access to doctors. And
• 45:55
  Speaker 6: they will find– you know what I mean? This is
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: not– people get to the bottom of it. And I
• 46:00
  Speaker 6: think it makes it harder to lie about what's actually
• 46:02
  Speaker 6: happening here.
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: I've put this off long enough. but it's time to
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: talk about everyone's favorite topic. I mean, I'm running out
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: of room here, but everyone's favorite topic, democratic messaging.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Alex, what have you made about the democratic messaging so far?
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: Effective or not so much?
• 46:17
  Speaker 6: I mean, listen, let's talk about the, what do we
• 46:21
  Speaker 6: call it? Public service announcement from AOC and Bernie.
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: I thought it was great.
• 46:24
  Speaker 11: Yep.
• 46:24
  Speaker 5: It's like more of this.
• 46:26
  Speaker 6: Like, why is this, why has this been so elusive?
• 46:29
  Speaker 6: Like plain speak, declarative, informative, and authentic.
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: Really clear message.
• 46:36
  Speaker 6: That's what this should be. And Democrats should be fanning
• 46:39
  Speaker 6: out doing all kinds of this. It's just so abundantly
• 46:43
  Speaker 6: clear in that video that this is the truth. And
• 46:48
  Speaker 6: I just think it's actually really helpful. I mean, I
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: think they need to do more of that.
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: No more like clickbaity cat videos. This is a really
• 46:57
  Speaker 5: serious topic.
• 46:58
  Speaker 6: There's a way to just get at it in a
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: that really underscores the gravity of the moment and the
• 47:03
  Speaker 6: reason Democrats are taking a stand.
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: And I think that video does it beautifully.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I would say, I don't mind the cat video.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: It's like for a particular audience.
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: I mean, I'm a cat lover too, Dan, but.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: It got, last I checked, it had like nearly 4
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: million views on TikTok.
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: That's because people love cats, Dan.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: They love cat. Cat videos have always said, well, the
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: internet's one of the, some of the first viral videos
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: involve cats. But like, I think the, I, I'll get
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: to the Bernie video, AOC video in a minute, but
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: I think there's sort of three things that Democrats could
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: do better in their messaging. The first is stop trying
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: to blame the Republicans for the shutdown. There's so much
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: of our content is like, the Republicans shut it down.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: This is the Trump shutdown. It's the MAGA shutdown. No
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: one cares who's responsible for it. We can debate who's
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: responsible for it, but that's not the point. That is
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: an argument for Politico, Punchbowl, Inside the Beltway Media. And the,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: the sort of value of shaping that conversation is so
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: diminished in this media environment. It's just like, it's not
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: what people care about. Second, there is this like tension,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: like related to that, there's this tension between saying that,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: you know, this fight's so important, but you're not the
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: one who started the fight. Like if you care so
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: passionately about it, be proud of the tactic you use
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: to start the fight. Like, We care about all– the
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: government is very important. We don't want to hurt any
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: of these people. But the stakes here are so high
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: for so many people that we have to take this
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: extraordinary step to do it.
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: Totally.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: Like lean into it.
• 48:34
  Speaker 11: I agree.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: There is this sense of discomfort with the actual thing
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: we're doing, which is like, We really want to fight,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: but we don't want to tell people. We want the
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: fight to come to us. Pick the fight. You pick
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: the fight. Be proud you picked the fight. It's a
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: righteous fight.
• 48:47
  Speaker 5: Totally.
• 48:47
  Speaker 6: It's a principled fight. They have principle in their favor,
• 48:50
  Speaker 6: and they should stand up.
• 48:52
  Speaker 8: Yes.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Lean into it. So that's one. Two, stop confusing your
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: legislative strategy and your messaging strategy. Your legislative strategy and
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: the possible exit ramp here is some sort of deal
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: in the ACA tax credits. I'm sure every wishy-washy member
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: wanted to know from Schumer, Jeffries, if we go in this,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: how do we get out? And that's the most obvious
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: answer because it's really the only thing there might possibly
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: one day be an agreement on. But that's your legislative strategy.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: The way you... achieve your legislative strategy is to win
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: the messaging war. And the way you win the messaging
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: war is to make this entire thing be about a
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: bigger conversation about that you are the ones fighting to
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: lower healthcare costs. You are fighting for people. That is
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: your strategic goal. Every moment talking about something else is.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: A missed opportunity to talk about the one thing.
• 49:41
  Speaker 10: Totally.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: That's why the AOC Bernie video is so good because
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: it makes it very clear. Here's why we're doing it.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: Here's why it's important. It's a big fucking deal. So
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: we have to take on this big fucking risk to
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: do it. And like this, we're just so, we're like tiptoeing.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: And this is sort of the third thing. And this
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: is like a problem with democratic messaging a lot over
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: the last couple of years here is we're playing not
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: to lose. Right? Like we, Like, we're not confident in
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: our position, so we're not being aggressive about it. It's like,
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: we can win this fight, act like you win this fight,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: be aggressive about it.
• 50:13
  Speaker 6: Well, and if you've learned anything from the Trump years,
• 50:16
  Speaker 6: play to win.
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: Believe you can win. Have the posture of a winner.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We just, we just, we really struggle. Like, there's
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: a learned helplessness that we have gotten. Like, in fairness,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: it's been a rough many years, right? Like, it's just
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: for Democrats, we've gotten... Like the 2024 election was a
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: scarring event. It's just people are struggling with it. Just
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: like be more aggressive about it.
• 50:42
  Speaker 6: It's like what Haley Barber, I think it was Haley Barber.
• 50:44
  Speaker 6: Keep the main thing, the main thing. The main thing
• 50:47
  Speaker 6: is healthcare. Go at it with everything you got.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: A Haley Barber reference for younger listeners.
• 50:54
  Speaker 5: It's not a cat video.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: One time governor of Mississippi, but he was a very,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: he was the RNC chair, very powerful Republican.
• 50:59
  Speaker 5: Keep the main thing, the main thing.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: All right. One quick thing before we jump to break.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: The Supreme Court's new term is off to the races,
• 51:06
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• 51:09
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• 51:11
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• 51:14
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• 51:17
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• 51:19
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• 51:25
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• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Another part of the messaging fight that we need to
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: talk about is the strange AI-generated videos Trump posted of
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: Hakeem Jeffries this week. The videos feature Jeffries in a
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: sombrero and mustache and are set to mariachi music, which
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: is definitely not racist. The videos have sparked strong reactions
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: among Democrats. The White House has been defiant, even playing
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: one of the videos in a loop in the press room.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Here's Jeffries' response, followed by Vance at a White House
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: presser on Wednesday. Could you give us.
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: Your reaction to that Trump-posted video tonight?
• 54:45
  Speaker 13: It's a disgusting video, and we're going to continue to
• 54:48
  Speaker 13: make clear bigotry will get you nowhere. We are fighting
• 54:52
  Speaker 13: to protect the health care of the American people in
• 54:55
  Speaker 13: the face of an unprecedented Republican assault.
• 55:00
  Speaker 12: Oh, I think it's funny. The president's joking, and we're
• 55:03
  Speaker 12: having a good time. You can negotiate in good faith
• 55:05
  Speaker 12: while also poking a little bit of fun at some
• 55:07
  Speaker 12: of the absurdities of the Democrats' positions and even poking
• 55:11
  Speaker 12: some fun at the absurdity of the Democrats themselves. I mean,
• 55:13
  Speaker 12: I'll tell Hakeem Jeffries right now, I make this solemn
• 55:16
  Speaker 12: promise to you that if you help us reopen the government,
• 55:19
  Speaker 12: the sombrero memes will stop.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: If there's one person who knows funny, it's J.D.
• 55:23
  Speaker 7: Vance.
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: It's true. He leads with humor so often.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: Alex, what do you make of this whole thing?
• 55:27
  Speaker 5: I mean, he was also asked if he thought the.
• 55:29
  Speaker 6: Vance was asked if he thought the video was racist
• 55:32
  Speaker 6: or bigoted and said, I don't even know what that means,
• 55:34
  Speaker 6: which is like the.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: First true thing J.D.
• 55:37
  Speaker 5: Vance has actually said. I mean.
• 55:40
  Speaker 6: I gotta say, we've come so far as a country
• 55:45
  Speaker 6: that the president, and I come so far, we've descended
• 55:49
  Speaker 6: so far. The president of the United States is posting
• 55:53
  Speaker 6: and defending what is just on its face, racist garbage.
• 55:58
  Speaker 5: And it's not funny.
• 55:59
  Speaker 6: And the fact that the vice president of the United
• 56:01
  Speaker 6: States can smile and laugh at that. I mean, I just,
• 56:03
  Speaker 6: this is one of those things where I spent time with,
• 56:06
  Speaker 6: you know, voters of color leading into the 2024 election.
• 56:10
  Speaker 6: And a lot of them that I spoke with were
• 56:12
  Speaker 6: ready to make peace with Trump. But you got to
• 56:14
  Speaker 6: hope that this is the kind of shit they remember,
• 56:17
  Speaker 6: you know. And you don't have to be a voter
• 56:19
  Speaker 6: of color to care about this. In fact, you shouldn't
• 56:20
  Speaker 6: just be a voter of color to care about this.
• 56:22
  Speaker 6: In fact, more white people should care about this.
• 56:25
  Speaker 5: But God, I hope they pay a price. It is
• 56:27
  Speaker 5: not OK. And it's not funny.
• 56:29
  Speaker 6: And it just it gives it gives it sheds light
• 56:32
  Speaker 6: on the central, you know, tactic and the strategy here,
• 56:36
  Speaker 6: which is, you know, race bait. make this about illegals,
• 56:42
  Speaker 6: poke fun at the Democrats as being a party that
• 56:44
  Speaker 6: cares about brown and black people.
• 56:46
  Speaker 5: Make that a.
• 56:46
  Speaker 6: Joke, make the welfare and the wellness and the survival
• 56:52
  Speaker 6: of the weakest among us and those who've been, you know,
• 56:55
  Speaker 6: just dealt the worst hands, make their unhappiness and their
• 56:59
  Speaker 6: pain a thing.
• 57:00
  Speaker 5: To laugh at. I mean, it's so awful.
• 57:03
  Speaker 6: I got to say, I thought Hakeem Jeffries did absolutely
• 57:06
  Speaker 6: the right thing, speaking to my friend and former colleague,
• 57:09
  Speaker 6: Lawrence O'Donnell, you know, saying it's disgusting, saying it's racist,
• 57:13
  Speaker 6: and then pivoting back to this is why we're in
• 57:15
  Speaker 6: this fight and just going back to keeping the main
• 57:17
  Speaker 6: thing the main thing.
• 57:18
  Speaker 5: But it is very.
• 57:19
  Speaker 6: Hard to just let this pass and pivot to, you know,
• 57:22
  Speaker 6: why Democrats are in this fight, because it's just appalling.
• 57:25
  Speaker 5: It's appalling.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is absolutely appalling. The fact that this is, like,
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: it's getting attention, which is why we're talking about it.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: It's been a big topic on Capitol Hill. But the
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: fact that it's something that happened and is not the
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: biggest story in America really shows, as you mentioned, how
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: far we've descended or how much Trump has moved the
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Overton window on what's acceptable conduct in public society. There's
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: always a tension with everything that outrageous that Trump does
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: is you have to pick and choose. What are you
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: going to fight about today? And I think Jeffrey said
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: that right. I mean, if you listen to the full clip,
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: Lawrence really set him up because before we cut in here,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: there's a long thing about how this got like basically
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: your point and how disgusting it is. And so Jeffrey's
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: response to it. And I think that's great. Like it's
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: about Jeffrey. He should respond to it. But in general,
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: every moment that we are talking about something other than
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: our fight to lower healthcare for people is that's what
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: Trump wants. Like, that's why they're doing it. That's why
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: they're leaning into it. Cause they want to take us
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: down that path. And I just think we have to
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: be disciplined about it. You should condemn it. And as
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Jeffrey's did pivot right away, like, we need a little
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: bit of like, um, turn off our shoulders approach to
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: these things, which is, which is like this. Obama had
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: to do this all the time, right? He was constantly
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: in a, like there is an example of a Republican
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: member of Congress who called him boy in a meeting
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: during a shutdown. And he had to decide like whether
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: that was going to be a public issue or not,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: because like we were fighting to save the affordable care
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: act at the time. Like there is, Like you just
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: sort of have to decide and like we can decide
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: like whether to give Trump the outrage he wants or not. Like,
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: and so we have to pick and choose the moments
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: to do that.
• 59:10
  Speaker 6: Would you say Dan, as a veteran of the Obama administration,
• 59:13
  Speaker 6: that it's like a refashioning of the, when we, when
• 59:17
  Speaker 6: they go low, it's not that we go high.
• 59:19
  Speaker 5: It's like when they go low, we wipe the shit
• 59:24
  Speaker 5: off of our feet.
• 59:25
  Speaker 6: I just don't even like, as we keep marching, I
• 59:27
  Speaker 6: don't even know so many mixed metaphors, but because it's
• 59:30
  Speaker 6: not necessarily trying to be above it, but it's, it's, it's, it's,
• 59:33
  Speaker 6: I mean, it's, it's not accepting the invitation to, to descend,
• 59:38
  Speaker 6: I guess.
• 59:38
  Speaker 5: I don't, I don't.
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: I just think you just, I think you have to
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: pick and choose, right? There's a moment, there are moments
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: to do it and moments to not. And like, and you, like,
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: you can't ignore it. Like he's like, like, Hakeem, if
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: you ever got asked a question, like you can't pretend
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: like the question didn't happen. You can't do a Republican.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: I didn't see the video, right? But there is like,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: as you said, stay focused on the main things, the
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: main things, stay focused.
• 59:59
  Speaker 5: Haley Barber, you see? Now you're quoting him.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: We're back to Haley. Two Haley Barber references in one podcast,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: which is the first two Haley Barber references in the
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: history of Posse America.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 5: That's why I'm here.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, on Tuesday, we saw more authoritarian lunacy from this administration.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: If you recall, Secretary of Defense, because I won't call
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: him Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth called more than 800
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: generals and admirals to Marine Base Quantico. There was a
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: ton of very scary speculation about the purpose of the meeting.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: Were we headed to war? Was there imminent attack? But
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: as it turned out, this was mostly a TED-style lecture
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: where Hegseth sauntered around the stage, ranting about the wokeness
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: of the military, military codes of conduct, and the physical
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: appearance and fitness of soldiers. One defense official told Politico
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: that it was the definition of, quote, could have been
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: an email. But Trump also decided to make an appearance
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: where he was a bit more, let's say, fascistic about
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: what he expected from the U.S. military. Here's Hegseth followed
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: by Trump.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 12: No more identity months, DEI offices, dudes in dresses.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: We are done with that shit. To our enemies, F-A-F-O.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 8: I've never walked into a room so silent before. This is.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: Don't laugh.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Don't laugh.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 8: You're not allowed to do that. If you want to applaud,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 8: you applaud. And if you want to do anything you want,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 8: you can do anything you want. And if you don't
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 8: like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 8: there goes your rank. There goes your future.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: Last month, I signed an executive order to provide training
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: for a quick reaction force that can help quell civil disturbances.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: This is going to be a big thing for the
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: people in this room because it's the enemy from within.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: And I told Pete, We should use some of these
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, National Guard,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: but military.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: Trump said it was going to be a nice meeting.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Did that sound very nice to you?
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 6: I mean, it sort of toggled between Orwellian McCarthyism and
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 6: metrosexual grooming conference.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 5: It was just like, at one point.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 6: the Secretary of Defense said fat generals are a bad look.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 5: And I was like, what?
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 6: At the same time, the President of the United States
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 6: is like, and we're also waging war on half the country. Like,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 6: we're just like, what the fuck was that? I found
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 6: the whole thing incredibly disturbing, Dan.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: Let's start with the Pete Hegseth part here, which is almost...
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: In the history of the United States government, no person
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: has been less qualified for the job they have than
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: Pete Hexeth. He's the weekend anchor of Fox News.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 6: I'm a former weekend anchor, so let's not malign the
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 6: entire category, but I like to think my.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: Work is better. Alex, I have to say, I have
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of respect, and there are a lot of
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: places in the cabinet where I can see you working.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 6: Well, I mean, I'm a shoo-in for the next administration
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 6: as Secretary of War.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, I feel like if you're a secretary of defense,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: let's say you were. Let's say that as a former
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: cable weekend anchor- No, no, network.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 5: It was network. Let's just be clear. It was network.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: Oh, you were a network. Then you could be vice president.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: Put you in the line of succession. But the idea
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: that you would act like this in front of the
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: most senior members of the military, it just requires such
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: a lack of self-awareness that it's stunning. You're going to
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: lecture these people, these people who've risen to the top
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: of their profession, serving their country in a time of
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: war on shaving and running laps? It's just wild.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 6: I mean, to have the audacity to tell a room
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 6: full of generals in military dress, fat generals are a
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 6: bad look, who the fuck does Pete Hegsa think he is?
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. It's wild. It's truly wild. While most of
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: Trump's speech was his normal rambling word vomit, we do
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: have to talk about his line about using U.S. cities
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: as training grounds for troops. And who exactly do you
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: think he meant when he said the enemy within? What's
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: your reaction?
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 5: You and me, for sure. I mean, this is not okay.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 5: This is the language.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 6: This is the stuff that really needs to disturb everyone.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 6: I mean, this is like, I mean, they're not even
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 6: keeping a secret. They're completely unconstitutional people. strategy here to
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 6: launch a kind of like semi-civil war against blue cities
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 6: and states, universities that are seen as bastions of liberalism.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 6: I mean, it's war against our own people. And announced
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 6: by the president of the United States at Quantico in
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 6: front of a room of, what is it, 800 top
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 6: military brass.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 5: This is a very alarming set of statements that he made.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 6: And it like there was a high degree of concern
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 6: and outrage when President Trump talked about vermin and adopted
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 6: the rhetoric of, you know, some of the worst autocrats
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 6: and dictators of the 20th century to be using this
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 6: language again and to be targeting Americans in a military
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 6: setting as Trump is ordering federal troops to cities, you know.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: Across the country. Like this.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 6: We're in this, we're in this, you know, we find
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 6: ourselves constantly in this state of, um, panic about so
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 6: many things that Trump does, but this seems to be
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 6: actually his raison d'etre. Like, I think there's just such
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 6: a desire to punish and own those who disagree with
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 6: him in the most acute and perverted fashion. And he's
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 6: here announcing that and doubling down on it. And, um, Yeah.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 6: I don't know what the right expression was, but it's
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 6: like the culmination of something conservatives have been obsessed with,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 6: I think, since they first sort of felt the rising
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 6: tide of liberalism in the 1960s and 40s, actually.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: In many cases, Trump's bark is worse than his bite.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: As we saw in DC, a lot of these National
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: Guard people he sends there end up picking up trash
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: on the mall or sitting around doing nothing, right? It's
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: the people who Like the National Guard troops themselves are
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: pulled away from home to do nothing. It's not like
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: they're just making a political statement. But the fact that
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: he has no– like he doesn't even– he's too dumb
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: or ahistorical or has too much dictator envy to see
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: the danger. Like you just have to not understand what
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: this country is about to think that it is okay
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: to talk about in this way, right? Like that's the
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: exact opposite of what America is supposed to exist for.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: And it's a very disturbing window into his mentality, the
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: danger of which is exponentially magnified by the fact this
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: entire party is going to be fine with it. There
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: is no bulwark to that. I mean, we're really counting
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: on those people in the room who would not applaud
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: to be the ones who will stop this from going
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: too far. That's a scary place to be.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 5: We're in a scary place.
• 1:07:11
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  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: Speaking of scary places, let's pivot from the military to
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: higher education as one does. This week, the White House
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: rolled out what they're calling the compact for academic excellence,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: a 10 point set of demands that will require universities
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: to cap international enrollment at 15%, ban the use of
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: race or gender in admissions or hiring and reform or
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: eliminate quote, institutional units that purposely punish, belittle, or even
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: spark violence against conservative ideas. Universities that signed onto this
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: agreement would get preferential access to federal funding. Those that
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: do not, well, pretty sure you can figure that out.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: So far, the White House has only invited nine schools
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: they believe would be good actors to sign on. Those
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: schools include Penn, USC, MIT, and what I believe to
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: be your alma mater, Brown University. Alex, what do you
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: make of the shortlist? And why is Brown on this list?
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 6: I could insert some dumb inside Brown jokes, but I'm
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 6: going to save you from that, Dan.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 5: You are correct.
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: I'm sure we have many Brown listeners, and I've always
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: thought that Brown is a very liberal place.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: Was I wrong about that?
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 5: No, you're not. It is a liberal place.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: Are they too liberal for grades? You know what?
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 5: That is a canard, okay? That's not true.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: I got grades.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 6: You can take things pass-fail, but I did choose to.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 5: Get grades, and they were Okay, kind of mediocre.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: This is why you'll be Secretary of Defense one day.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: This is why.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 5: Also, I have a lot of thoughts on grooming.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, perfect.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 6: Look, these are places that have signaled that they will
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 6: play ball. You know, there are bastions of liberalism that
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 6: Trump has targeted in other respects, and they have signaled
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 6: that they will play ball.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 5: And, you know, the thing about, you know, making.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 6: Concessions to Trump, if people haven't fucking figured this out yet,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 6: is you give him an inch and he'll ask for
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 6: a mile. Like, nobody's ever done. You're not done until
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 6: it's over. And he tells you when it's over. So, yeah,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 6: of course this is the short list. But, I mean, damn,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 6: this is like– it's also embarrassing for higher education to
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 6: It's so dark.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 5: It's so bad.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 6: Autocrats love targeting universities because that's where people get educated
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 6: and are opened to discussion and debate. I remember in Burma,
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 6: I keep bringing it up, but one of the first
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 6: things the military did after student-led protests in 88 was
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 6: crack down on universities. And to this day, they have
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 6: really curbed tons of institutions of higher learning. They've shuttered
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 6: universities before. Nobody likes places where people learn and discuss
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 6: and debate and are exposed to new concepts and ideas
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 6: and people because that's a losing hand for autocracy and dictatorship.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 6: So it's not surprising that our, you know, small-handed autocrat
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 6: here in the United States wants to tackle higher ed here,
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 6: and he is assisted by conservatives who have been.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 5: You know, obsessed with this for decades, right? Like, I mean,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 5: people forget.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 6: I've been writing a book for the last, however, I mean,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 6: such a dumb idea. It's coming out next year. We
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 6: don't have a name for it. But one of the
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 6: things that I've been going back at is the origins
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 6: of the Federalist Society. The Federalist Society started as an
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 6: alt-college group By a bunch of conservatives who were like,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 6: there's no place for us. It's an alt-campus group that's
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 6: effectively started by conservatives who were like, the liberal campuses suck.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: We have nobody like ourselves. There are no like-minded individuals.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 6: What can we do to reclaim a little bit of
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 6: territory for ourselves? And look what their Federalist Society is now, right? Like,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 6: there has been a focus and an obsession— with the
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 6: liberalism that is pervasive on university campuses and trying to
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 6: rein it in at all costs. And this is like
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 6: just the most exponentially extreme example of that agenda coming
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 6: to fruition.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: It's deeply dangerous. It is the, it's essentially extortion.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: Because if you do these things, if you become more conservative,
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: you adopt our political principles and our policies, we will
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: give you federal money, the federal money you need to
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: fund your research projects, everything else. We will do that
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: for you. And if you don't do it, then you
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: will suffer competitively compared to other universities. And this is,
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: as you point out, this is the lesson of if
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: you give in once, you're going to give in again
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: and again and again. And because these universities can't stick together,
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: some of them will immediately accept this because they think
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: that'll give them an advantage over everyone else who then
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: We'll force other people to do it and you'll end
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: in a very bad place. Like this is– it's just–
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: if universities cannot fight for the First Amendment, who is
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: going to do that?
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: Totally. Right.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: It's just like the media companies giving it, right?
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 5: Or the law firms.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: Or the law firms, right? If law firms won't sue
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: to protect their First Amendment rights, if universities won't fight
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: for academic freedom and freedom of speech, if media companies
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: won't fight for freedom of the press, who is going
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: to– That's the.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 5: Ballgame, dude. That's the ballgame.
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 5: And it's all because of money.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 6: Like, let's just remember that principle is more valuable than money.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 6: And the universities have endowments. And this is like, this
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 6: is the fight. This is the existential fight for academic freedom.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 6: Don't mistake it for anything but that Brown University. You
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 6: get a fail on this one.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: Perfect. Okay. There's been a lot of bad news this
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: week and in this podcast, but it hasn't been all
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: bad news.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 5: We've been quoting Haley Barber.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: That's where we are. We've been quoting Haley Barber.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 5: That's how bad it's gotten.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: So I thought we'd take a moment to talk about
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: some good news. So first, the Supreme Court announced that
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: it's allowing Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook to remain in
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: her post while they consider Trump's case to fire her.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: The White House withdrew its nomination of EJ and Tony,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: the controversial and unqualified hack they chose to lead the
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: Bureau of Labor Statistics after Republicans Susan Collins and Lisa
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: Murkowski refused to even meet with them. On Tuesday, a
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: Reagan-appointed federal district judge issued a damning ruling of the
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: Trump administration's effort to crack down on free speech. The
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: ruling concluded that foreign students have the same First Amendment
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: protections as U.S. citizens. The judge also responded to a
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: threatening note he'd received, which went, quote, Trump has pardons
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: and tanks. What do you have? Young's response, dear Mr.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: or Ms. Anonymous, alone I have nothing but my sense
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: of duty. Together, we the people of the United States,
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: you and me, have our magnificent Constitution. And in a
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: final 13-page section, the judge took Trump to task by
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: breaking down the misdeeds of his second term. Young ended
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: by writing, I think this is very powerful, I fear
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: President Trump believes the American people are so divided that
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: today they will not stand up, fight for, and defend
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: our most precious constitutional values so long as they are
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: lulled into thinking their own personal interests are not affected.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: Is he correct? The White House, of course, called the
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: ruling outrageous. Seems pretty spot on to me. What did
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: you think?
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 6: You know, I think this is the sort of question
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 6: we're all asking ourselves, those of us who are still asking.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 5: It's like, where is everyone?
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 6: You know, and I think that there's a real profound
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 6: fear that I'm not going to say sinking suspicion, but
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 6: I mean, where is everybody? You know, you just rattled
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 6: off a group of institutions that should be fighting this
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 6: for their own self-interest, right? But have decided that the
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 6: money is just too easy to come by?
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think that the lower courts, like, hats
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 5: off to them.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 6: These are the guys that are, you know, to actually,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 6: we should say, like, for these federal district judges to
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 6: do what they're doing and to be very clear and
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 6: pointed in their criticism of this administration is not an
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 6: easy thing to do because they know what's coming at them.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 5: These judges are under threat.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 6: They are putting their own lives, the lives of their
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 6: family at risk, and they're doing so on principle. And
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 6: that's really heartening, right? Like, that part of the court
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 6: system is really heartening. But you do feel like it
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 6: needs to be undergirded by people and other institutions that
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 6: have their back. And I really do worry about him.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 6: I mean, I don't like that it ends with the question,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 6: is he correct? That scares me because it's something I
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 6: think we're all asking ourselves right now. But I think
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 6: it's a remarkable and courageous document. And, you know, I
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 6: really hope this, you know, as with all these things,
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 6: we don't just end up back in, you know, John
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 6: Roberts' lap where, you know, Instead of a little white cat,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 6: it's just like whatever animal enables the Trump administration.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 5: That's such a weird visual I just painted. I'm sorry.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: It's okay. It's okay. It's been a weird week. You know,
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: I think as we look at this, it's easy to
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: ask the question, like, where is everyone? The people have responded, right?
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: Like the people within the United States have responded. The
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: No King's Day protest is one of the largest protests
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: in American history. People are showing up for things. They
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: are protesting. They are actually there. The failure here is
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: from elites. It's from the law firms. It's from the CEOs.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: It's from Wall Street. It's from some Democratic leaders before
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 2: this fight. And those are the people who are not
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: standing up. The grassroots of the Democratic Party, the pro-democracy
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: movement in this country, are responding. They are pushing back.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: They are living their values and volunteering, organizing, donating, protesting, campaigns.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: The question is, are the elites going to do it?
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: And thus far, Trump's authoritarian power grab has been enabled
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: entirely by cowardly, greedy elites. That is exactly what's happening.
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: And I want to hear more Democrats make that argument.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah. The shame argument, it's powerful.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 6: I mean, it's shocking as a member of the media,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 6: as someone who went to Brown, you know, like with
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 6: friends in law firms, like, where are you guys? How
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 6: can you not see this for what it is? This
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 6: is your future.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: Another bit of good news, the Pope is still woke.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, baby.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: On Tuesday, Pope Leo offered reporters a glimpse into his
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: political views. The Chicago-born pontiff was asked about an apparently
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: controversial plan for a Catholic institution to give Illinois Senator
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: Dick Durbin an award for his support of migrants, despite
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: Durbin's support for abortion rights. Here's how Pope Leo responded.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 10: Someone who says I'm against abortion, but says I'm in
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 10: favor of the death penalty is not really pro-life. So
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 10: someone who says that, uh, I'm against abortion, but I'm
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 10: in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants who are
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 10: in the United States. I don't know if that's pro-life.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: Is Pope Leo our best chance in 2028?
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, he is. I mean, I think that this is
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 5: the ace in the hole.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 6: Oh, you, you, you GOP, you want to get rid
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 6: of the division between church and state?
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 5: Well, how about Pope for president, snitches? Let's go. He's
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 5: like an amazing Pope. I mean, Chicago, run it back.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 5: Why not?
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 6: I think the minute Leo was, the smoke came out,
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 6: it was black smoke, right?
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 5: Black smoke when they chose the Pope.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: I think it's white smoke.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 5: White smoke, right.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 6: It's black smoke when they haven't chosen. Sorry, I'm a
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 6: bad lapsed Catholic, quite obviously. This is the kind of
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 6: stuff we need more of. We talk about institutions, religious
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 6: institutions are just as important in this fight as media
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 6: institutions and legal institutions and the court system. Like, All
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 6: hands on deck. And this pope is clearly a deeply
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 6: ethical person. He has an incredible pulpit, quite literally, to
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 6: speak from. And I think it's really important. It reframes
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 6: issues that should matter to all Americans outside of partisan lens.
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 6: And I think that's essential, especially the conversation around immigration.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 6: I wish Democrats had as much gumption and empathy as
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 6: this pope to talk about immigrants in a humane and loving.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 5: Way, right? So hats off. Can you say hats off
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 5: to the Pope? Miters off to the Pope?
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: Either way. Oprah Pope? Popra?
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 5: Popra 28? Popra 28? Could we do it? Can you
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 5: spin that? Can you make that happen? Popra?
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: I think that doesn't need to be spun. That seems
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: like you nailed it.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 5: Pope and Oprah. Can't lose.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: All right. That seems like a great place to end it.
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: That's our show for today. Alex will be back with
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: a new show on Sunday, her first Sunday interview episode. Alex,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: who are you talking to?
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 6: I am talking to the wise, provocative, profound writer, author,
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 6: feminist Roxane Gay, who has some really, I would say controversial,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 6: but compelling ideas about whether or not civility has a
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 6: place in American politics right now. So we're going to
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 6: be getting into that as well as a host of
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 6: other things. I'm super excited. I didn't realize I had
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 6: to work on Sundays here, but they say there's some
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 6: free RX bars coming my way.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 5: So I guess I'm going to get extra.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: Snacks if you work on Sundays. Well, I'm looking forward
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: to that episode. Thanks, Alex. Thanks for filling in for John.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: Thanks to everyone for listening. And Alex will be back
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: in your feed on Sunday.
• 1:21:46
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