Latest / The Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction Podcast / Episode 61 | Uncovering the Power of Clover Cover
Transcript
- Episode 61 | Uncovering the Power of Clover Cover 00:00:05:26 - 00:00:31:01 Todd Gleason This is the Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction Strategy Podcast, episode 61: new and emerging cover crops. Clover. I'm University of Illinois Extension's Todd Gleason. Coming up a bit later, we'll talk with Nathan Johanning, a commercial Ag educator at the University of Illinois, about clover and some of his experiences as he's using it on the University of Illinois research plots across the state. 00:00:31:04 - 00:00:40:14 Todd Gleason But first, we'll talk with Adam Dahmer in southern Illinois. He has been using cover crops for more than two decades, 00:00:40:17 - 00:00:53:09 Adam Dahmer Adam Dahmer, farm east of Marion and Wayne County, Illinois. Raised in the farm, six generation and, cover cropped my entire career. We’re probably at 26 years on cover crops right now. 00:00:53:12 - 00:00:59:15 Todd Gleason That is simply amazing. Tell me about some of the other practices you do on the farm, and then we'll get back to those cover cropping. 00:00:59:18 - 00:01:08:26 Adam Dahmer I 100% no till. Like I said, everything is cover crop. I've been actively involved for 28 years. 00:01:08:26 - 00:01:11:13 Todd Gleason How did you start and why? 00:01:11:13 - 00:01:22:08 Adam Dahmer So late 90s, Dad knew that that we need to increase the organic matter on the farm. And at that time, there wasn't a lot of information as to how we were going to do that. 00:01:22:08 - 00:01:50:18 Adam Dahmer Okay. But it was known that if we want to increase organic matter, we got to put more residue out there. So he started with cereal rye, flying it all with an airplane and stand of corn. And then we would harvest, that cereal rye, would be 3 or 4in tall. And that worked out pretty well for us. It, allowed us to have that test, before harvest, was pretty resilient as far as when the combine rolled and so forth. 00:01:50:20 - 00:02:20:12 Adam Dahmer And it worked pretty well. And he started with 80 pounds of cereal rye per acre. That went on. We continued, somewhere about 2012, we decided, okay, we need to be 100%. So only half the acres were done up until that point. And then in 2012, we went 100% and never looked back. The only regret we have we had at that time was that we didn't start 100% earlier, completely transformed the soil. 00:02:20:15 - 00:03:00:03 Adam Dahmer The main the main cornerstones of my cover crop program are cereal rye, rapeseed, annual ryegrass, hairy vetch and crimson clover. And that's, that pretty well goes on. Well, the cereal, right doesn't go on in front of the corn. We do oats instead. But substantial difference when it comes to building soil with that process. The, when it comes to cover crops, we have or I have applied it many different ways, whether it be from an airplane utilized a drone. 00:03:00:06 - 00:03:25:07 Adam Dahmer We've done, in 2013 Dad bought a miller High Boy sprayer, and we built a cover crop seeder out of that. That worked pretty decent. Problem was, when I was far with him, we didn't have square fields, so we were having to drive over everything, and we still weren't getting much success in the standing beans. So it was really only effective in corn. 00:03:25:13 - 00:03:55:12 Adam Dahmer So at that point, it just it's one of those things that we we did it for a few years, and then it kind of fell the wayside. The, we from that point forward, I've drilled everything takes a little bit more time. But it is we do get a better stand. Some of the reasons that we weren't having a stand success in starting soybeans was we had such a dense mat of cereal rye from that spring that it prohibited seed to soil contact. 00:03:55:14 - 00:04:14:22 Adam Dahmer And then also, you've got to pay attention to your insects and so forth. Mother nature was doing its job, and we had such a healthy population of crickets that crickets were eating the ryegrass seed. Cricket will eat up to 20 seeds per night, so it was completely detrimental to our stand when it came to ryegrass because we were doing exactly what we wanted. 00:04:14:22 - 00:04:42:10 Adam Dahmer We were increasing diversity in the fields, but we weren't monitoring all the things that they were eating. So we were feeding crickets for a few years, and then we abandoned and went to drill. Comes to challenges. I mean, we can make excuses for anything. There's no denying that. It's just everything. It takes time is a challenge. Everything's a challenge, but it makes such a substantial difference in the operation. 00:04:42:10 - 00:05:10:21 Adam Dahmer We won't do without it. I can transform a farm in about 3 to 4 years with the right program. And when it comes to kind of the biggest ah hah moment was, see, it was two years ago. We, we had taken on a new farm that was farm the same way my home place was same same nutrient package, same everything. 00:05:10:23 - 00:05:33:10 Adam Dahmer We even playing the same variety of corn that year, planted at the same day. Long story short, the fields are about a half mile apart from each other. They lay the same, and there was a 40 bushel difference in the corn yield. And I attribute that to increased soil structure, better water hauling capacity, and decreased compaction. So when you average that out, that's a four bushel year. 00:05:33:10 - 00:05:54:06 Adam Dahmer Increased. Now granted, I understand that there's a lot of factors come into that, but to take the same soil types and the same practices and a 40 bushel swing on the same variety of corn, that's not all. Like there's a lot more going on than what we want to admit to. And so structure and life in the soil is substantial when it comes to that. 00:05:54:06 - 00:06:00:25 Todd Gleason Tell me about the soils in Marion County that your farming in particular, those two farms. What kinds of soils are you on? 00:06:00:28 - 00:06:24:12 Adam Dahmer We've got a lot of heavy clay, average organic matter in my counties, probably 1.8, 2.2. I've got some soils pushing three and a half to 3.9 right now. But the problem it is, and like this winter, we're going to see a decreased, we're going to see a decreased organic matter because my biology hasn't slowed down. 00:06:24:14 - 00:06:44:20 Adam Dahmer So with that, when the biology doesn't take a break, she just keeps munching on everything we got in the soil. And that's what makes it hard to get our organic matters at high levels, because our biology doesn't go dormant. So but it's not a week where I can get above 4%. It's not a problem. We've done it. I've done it in the past. 00:06:44:22 - 00:06:53:03 Adam Dahmer It just it just takes time. Soils are heavily degraded and just a little bit of love. They respond very quickly. 00:06:53:07 - 00:07:09:10 Todd Gleason So the longer growing season allows you to sow in the fall, with the drill. But the warmer climate, at least for this winter, has caused an issue for you. That that's what I think I heard you say. 00:07:09:10 - 00:07:10:00 Todd Gleason Is that correct? 00:07:10:07 - 00:07:43:00 Adam Dahmer Well, I'd like to. I'd like to see us more. So I'm not going to say it's an issue. It's more so the fact that when your soil doesn't get that cold, the biology doesn't stop and biology doesn't stop. It continues to eat on organic matter and stuff, which makes it hard to build organic matter. To say that I can, that I have a longer planning winter window than those in Northern Illinois, I would I'm not going to disagree with that, but I'm also not going to agree with that because the advantage they have up there over where I'm at is when it gets cold, it stays cold and their crops go 00:07:43:00 - 00:08:00:18 Adam Dahmer dormant and they get snow covered. It's actually harder on the cover crops. When you go 70 degrees one day, it's 80 degrees the next day and back and forth because they're constantly trying to survive. Wake up, shut down, wake up, shut down. And, survival is is tougher in this area because we don't have snow cover to protect it. 00:08:00:18 - 00:08:19:07 Adam Dahmer And we will see warm days and then we'll see cold days. So it's I mean, we can all we can all make assumptions. But there's a lot of other factors that come into play. And yes, I have to get out there and get it planted and so forth. But yet they'll be out there in the spring before I will plant. 00:08:19:13 - 00:08:20:27 Todd Gleason What's your row crop rotation? 00:08:20:27 - 00:08:26:01 Adam Dahmer Corn and soybeans. My wife has a U picked pumpkin patch that we've got, ten acres of You pick pumpkins. 00:08:26:01 - 00:08:31:22 Todd Gleason When you went 100% to cover crops, how hard was that transition? 00:08:31:24 - 00:08:43:26 Adam Dahmer Wasn't an issue. Soybean, soybeans going into cereal rye, it’s a piece of cake. Planting corn into cover crops. You gotta decide. Are you going to plant green or are you going to terminate early? 00:08:43:28 - 00:09:02:29 Adam Dahmer What's your planter set up? What practice are you going to? What practice are you going to implement on applying nitrogen and so forth. There's a lot more factors that go into that. The biggest mistake I see with growers trying to take Corning to cover crops is they don't have their planner equipped correctly all too often and and pretty well. 00:09:03:01 - 00:09:22:18 Adam Dahmer Most farmers are guilty of this. They're running a conventional set up, even trying to make it work in no till. For example, they're running rubber closing wheels. They've probably got a no till culver on the front, and all they're going is they're relying on that no till culture to fluff the ground, and then the rubber closing will push down on it. 00:09:22:20 - 00:09:43:23 Adam Dahmer But like our operation, we don't we have I haven't run a no till culver probably 15 years, if not longer. And we change our closing wheels on the back and you've got it. You've got to think about the environment you're playing into. It's not loose soil. You've got roots intertwined throughout all that, and they're holding that soil together. So you've got to change your approach. 00:09:43:25 - 00:10:01:26 Adam Dahmer Then when when it comes to the nitrogen and so forth on how you're going to apply it, if you're dealing with Harry vetch and you're going to use, typical nitrogen bar where your knife end in the ground, that's not going to work because it's going to act as a garden rake and rake up all the vines, and you're just going to have big wads out in the field. 00:10:01:28 - 00:10:06:25 Adam Dahmer So there's a lot of factors come into it that you have to you have to adjust as you're moving forward. 00:10:06:25 - 00:10:10:00 Todd Gleason What’s your planter setup actually like in that case? 00:10:10:03 - 00:10:27:22 Adam Dahmer My planter setups pretty basic. No, no till culters, double disc openers. And then I run the Copperhead, for a cruiser extremes, cast iron. And I've had the best success out of those going into ryegrass. 00:10:27:25 - 00:10:30:13 Adam Dahmer We've tried all kinds, and that one seems to work the best. 00:10:30:16 - 00:10:36:12 Todd Gleason And then for your anhydrous ammonia in the spring time, do you use anhydrous ammonia first? 00:10:36:15 - 00:10:54:26 Adam Dahmer So I haven't used an hydrous since 2018. I switched to 32% thing about it. And hydrous ammonia you have to you have there's a couple things going on there. One, it creates compaction because it just that's it's a gas and it's rapidly dissipating all the all the moisture, the soil in that area. 00:10:54:26 - 00:11:17:04 Adam Dahmer And also you're, you're terminate your biology in that strip. But I got away from it. And also because if it's not if it's not healthy for me, it's probably not healthy for the soil. Not that 32% is any better, but if I spill it on my skin, it's not burning my skin off. So that's that's kind of one of the reasons why we switched. 00:11:17:04 - 00:11:19:15 Adam Dahmer But yeah, I went to 32% side side dress. 00:11:19:18 - 00:11:21:18 Todd Gleason What else have you learned? 00:11:21:21 - 00:11:51:18 Adam Dahmer Every day's a new experience. I mean, we just continue to learn things all the time. There's there's so much. There's so much that we can do with this. It's. I mean, I could talk on it for hours as far as what experiences we've had. Main thing is you got to let you've got to get past, I am a certain color type guy, and I'm only going to drive that color because that's not the case at all, because you got to buy the best equipment for that to accomplish your goals on that. 00:11:51:21 - 00:12:17:05 Adam Dahmer And you've just you've got to you've got to be willing to to make it work. I, when I do speak, when I do public engagements and do speaking events and so forth, I’ll ask guys how many people have have worked their ground and conventionally farmed and, you know pretty well everybody raise their hand. And then I ask, how many, how many of those have had to replant crops in those situations? 00:12:17:08 - 00:12:39:23 Adam Dahmer Pretty much all of them raise their hand. And yet they still go back to the conventional methods of farming. So this attitude that we have to replant and stuff is not applicable because they've all admitted to having to do it on conventional. They still work ground. So there's nothing it's 100%, but with agriculture, I mean you have to ever be adapting and ever changing, and not one year has ever been perfect. 00:12:39:26 - 00:12:48:08 Todd Gleason What's the most recent change that you've made that you didn't like? 00:12:48:10 - 00:13:15:14 Adam Dahmer I honestly couldn't tell you because, I mean, it's we've been in it so long that I've, I've changed the way I look at things and we've got it pretty. And I got to say, we've got it figured out because I don't think anybody that's doing this has 100% figured out. But it's we've got it pretty well streamlined. The, the most exciting part of my operation is my wife's pumpkin patch with the cover crops in front of it. 00:13:15:17 - 00:13:39:14 Adam Dahmer Well, because I've got I've got a clean field. I'm not spraying. I'm not spraying water hemp and everything. It's going into a dense mat. She's not having the health issues out of her pumpkins because the dense cover crop, our biology is active. We get beneficial insects. I'm not even spraying insecticide. Last year, we didn't spray any insecticide, but typically we'll have to hit it one time in September. 00:13:39:14 - 00:13:58:00 Adam Dahmer But other than that, all my mother nature's just taking care of it. Now, with that being said, well, we still see some insect damage. Yes, but even when we have sprayed insecticide, we still see insect damage. So you can't say that it's that it's beneficial. But I mean, it just it's we get more excitement out of that side now than the corn soybeans. 00:13:58:00 - 00:14:01:05 Adam Dahmer Just because we've done it so long, we've pretty well got it figured out on what we want. 00:14:01:10 - 00:14:05:20 Todd Gleason I want to go back to, the crop mixes you mentioned, but you were using. 00:14:05:24 - 00:14:06:06 Adam Dahmer Yes, sir. 00:14:06:07 - 00:14:09:17 Todd Gleason Can you tell me a bit? Can you tell me a bit more about those? 00:14:09:17 - 00:14:18:13 Adam Dahmer In front of the soybeans? It's going to be 56 to 70 pound of cereal rye, 5 pound of ryegrass, 2 pound of rapeseed. 00:14:18:15 - 00:14:51:09 Adam Dahmer No more than 4 pound of vetch. And depending upon the year, we may use crimson instead. You don't want to do any more than 4 pound of veg because it separate it when it melts down so tight that the beans struggle to get up out of that in front of the corn will have, 10 pound of ryegrass, 30 pound of winter oats, 2 pound of rapeseed, 6 to 8 pound of crimson and sometimes we'll put vetch in there, depending on which, which approach we're wanting to take. 00:14:51:09 - 00:15:10:03 Todd Gleason Visually, do you have to get you used to it? For instance, I'm thinking with no till soybeans don't jump out of the ground. And often they just look like they're waiting. And I suspect that might be even more the case with corn and or soybean into a cover crop. 00:15:10:03 - 00:15:14:00 Adam Dahmer Corn? Not so much. It does an excellent job. Soybeans. 00:15:14:00 - 00:15:34:10 Adam Dahmer You just know not to look at it for the first 2 to 3 weeks, they have to overcome it, and. But they do, and they yield, and they're healthier. And there's there's no there's no complaint there. But, I mean, we all get so caught up and we need a perfect picket fence when it comes to everything, and it has to look perfect. 00:15:34:10 - 00:15:59:03 Adam Dahmer And yes, I know the signs there that everything has to merge at the right time and yada yada yada and all that stuff. But you've also got to look at your plant health, your profitability and all other aspects of it. So if you want to all emerge within 12 hours and you're working that field in the bug dust and you're beating it up, but then you have no water retention or you have no water hauling capabilities and you've got compaction issues just because you got out of the ground. 00:15:59:03 - 00:16:16:26 Adam Dahmer If you can't take care of a weekend in the stress months of the year, what did you accomplish? Like, you're so caught up on one in you're you're you're completely neglecting the other side. So I mean, it's it's all a trade off. Not to mention you've got all kinds of inputs when it comes to your equipment on working that ground and getting it down to that point. 00:16:17:01 - 00:16:32:14 Todd Gleason Any advice for producers who are interested in trying this, whether it's on we've talked about the planter and the mechanics, maybe on those different species and the cover crop mix that they might want to try to start with. 00:16:32:14 - 00:16:41:26 Adam Dahmer Your seed supplier is who you need to lean on and remember, you get what you pay for. 00:16:41:29 - 00:17:04:02 Adam Dahmer And price is not always king. But if you want to guy, I mean, just taking a guy that you're selling seed out there versus a guy that's selling seed and has experience, there's two completely different approaches. There and experience always wins. So choose who you're buying seed from and that'll be monumental on your success. 00:17:04:04 - 00:17:21:19 Todd Gleason That's Adam Dahmer. He's a Williamson County farmer in deep southern Illinois, where Marion is the county seat, and just to the north of the divide of Interstate 57, which goes south to Memphis, and Interstate 24, which goes south and east to Nashville. 00:17:21:21 - 00:17:37:20 Todd Gleason Up next, we'll take up Clover as a new kind of cover crop here on the Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction Strategy podcast. 00:17:37:22 - 00:17:58:26 Todd Gleason We'll turn now to some of the cover crops research that University of Illinois Extension has been doing. We’ll stay in the southern part of the state, where Nathan Johanning works on this side of the river near Saint Louis, the Mississippi River, that is. And he's been doing cover crops research for more than ten years. Sometimes for extension, sometimes in his previous career. 00:17:58:29 - 00:18:05:26 Todd Gleason But today he's got a couple of things going, and I asked him to explain what he's looking at. 00:18:05:28 - 00:18:21:08 Nathan Johanning So I've done various cover crop research projects. Currently, the one thing we are working with is looking at some planting date trials with cover crops. Just as we know for corn, soybeans, or wheat we know different planting date windows influence for performance. 00:18:21:10 - 00:18:45:11 Nathan Johanning Well, one thing we don't know as well is for cover crops. What are the implications for, you know, different planting dates in the fall and how does that relate to our, our actual biomass growth, productivity of those cover crops. So we're looking at, cereal rye, ahead of soybeans that then is planted. We have four different seeding rates and planted at three different planting dates in the fall. 00:18:45:11 - 00:19:20:15 Nathan Johanning Trying to understand the dynamics in the spring when it comes to how much biomass does that relate to? Does that have any influences on soybean stand that related biomass or then yield as well? The second part of that is we're actually working with some clover cover crops ahead of corn. Same thing. We're just using a single seeding rate, but looking at three different planting dates throughout the fall and assessing kind of the gradient of what kind of biomass production survivability do we get at those rates, and how does that influence corn stand yield and and performance. 00:19:20:17 - 00:19:43:16 Nathan Johanning I've also done some previous work in just different, cover crop species and varieties, looking at different termination timings of cereal, rye and soybeans and things like that, amongst other, other things. But a lot of just general kind of screening and especially demo plots for field days, looking at a wide range of varieties of cover crops, different species to get people familiar with them, see what they look like, etc.. 00:19:43:16 - 00:19:51:27 Todd Gleason So tell me a bit more about using Clover as a cover cropping, on its own, or adding it to the mix. 00:19:51:29 - 00:20:12:11 Nathan Johanning So one of the of course, the main benefit, as we probably all would, know from adding a legume like a clover is the is the nitrogen fixation benefit. So that besides just adding, some extra diversity to our cover crops, especially as we look towards, nitrogen loving crop like corn, which is obviously a very prevalent in our state. 00:20:12:11 - 00:20:37:14 Nathan Johanning You know, we we want to find a cover crop that's going to complement the nutrient needs of, of that cash crop. So one of the things that people do like, and especially I think in a mix, is, you know, adding some of that legume in there to help, you know, bring in, for one thing, it has a lower carbon and nitrogen ratio in its biomass. 00:20:37:14 - 00:20:52:28 Nathan Johanning So that doesn't tie up as much nitrogen that we have, and then also have that nitrogen production aspect. So those are kind of the main, kind of the main reasons that, you know, a lot of us focus on, on the aspects of legumes, like clovers in our rotations. 00:20:52:28 - 00:20:57:06 Todd Gleason What clover varieties are you using and how are they similar or different? 00:20:57:13 - 00:21:33:10 Nathan Johanning So, we have the research we're doing currently is looking at Crimson Clover and then also looking at Balansa Clover. So we're looking at those two specifically. As an aside, I've also done a little work in the past with Berseem Clover, although my current work doesn't. We didn't have room to include it in, but with Crimson Clover, which is, one that I've, I've always had a, just a, a natural kind of affinity for, I think, if nothing else, if you've ever seen a field of crimson clover bloom in the spring, it's, at least agriculturally speaking, it's just, it's probably one of one of the prettier things you could ask for. 00:21:33:10 - 00:21:54:07 Nathan Johanning And nothing but a field of that crimson red. But I like it ergonomically because it's an annual clover or a winter annual. So what happens with it? It's life cycle, I would say, is very akin to wheat. So by the time you get to late May or early June, it naturally it's going to die. It's not a perennial like some of our other clovers. 00:21:54:09 - 00:22:21:26 Nathan Johanning And what that means is sometimes there's there's always that challenge with, you know, termination, especially because a well-established clover that we use in forage systems is fairly robust for a perennial clover, because this is an annual even if it is actively growing. And if if termination is a little bit of a challenge or concern, there's always the backup in your mind knowing that it's only it's our it's going to die automatically. 00:22:21:26 - 00:22:44:07 Nathan Johanning It's not going to persist all summer long and be, be a nuisance or be a draw on water or nutrients. It's life is going to end, you know, no matter what. So that's one thing I like besides it it's well documented, have good ability to to produce nitrogen and things. On balansa clover, it has a higher growth, potential. 00:22:44:10 - 00:23:09:12 Nathan Johanning As far as biomass production, it is a, it is, is not a winter annual. So it is, is a perennial in nature. And so it does it does grow, live longer. It has potential to grow higher amounts of biomass. So with that higher amounts of biomass, you know, there's, I think doing some documentation that could also relate to maybe, you know, more nitrogen especially accumulate in the biomass. 00:23:09:14 - 00:23:46:29 Nathan Johanning What we're learning and what we've seen and observed somewhat is I do believe that specialty varieties of balansa clover that are bred for the Midwest and adapted. Some are more, maybe warm season in nature. Those that can handle the winter for us do have a potential to, maybe have a little later planting window and better success, which is what we're kind of, kind of poking at with our research than what some of the Crimson Clover does and ability to, to handle maybe a little wider range and planting date, which is, which is a challenge because we're trying to balance, the time our cash crop is in the 00:23:46:29 - 00:23:58:28 Nathan Johanning field and then trying to also get a cover crop established in that busy time of year. And sometimes those just don't overlap the best. Even though we want to legume out there, we don't have maybe the ideal planting date, to get them out there. 00:23:59:02 - 00:24:07:18 Todd Gleason When will you be able to compile the information on your planting date study and other things that you're doing this year so that farmers might be able to get a look at it? 00:24:07:18 - 00:24:35:03 Nathan Johanning So we have some some preliminary data from, from 2023 looking at our planting date studies we have that, that trial is also going to be continuing, thanks to the continued support of the Illinois Soybean Association on on those trials. So we're going to do we have another year planted in the ground already, and we're looking to hopefully do a third year also to, to look at that, especially on the clovers, which there's more variability. 00:24:35:06 - 00:24:57:27 Todd Gleason And we're actually we're seeing that obviously, as you get later in some of our later planting dates, which for us can the very last to be, say, early November, that we aren't getting successful establishment, which is fine, because in our case, we're as researchers, we actually like the fact that we're hitting an end row, because that kind of tells us in our gradient that we've hit, a kind of a known, a known wall or, or barrier. 00:24:57:27 - 00:25:15:14 Nathan Johanning So we can we can look back from there and say, all right, well, this we know is not, is not viable. Let's move back a few weeks and see where that falls. So, so that's, that's some of the information we have. We have a little bit of early results out now, and certainly within the next year we're going to have more. 00:25:15:14 - 00:25:19:14 Nathan Johanning And we'll be sharing some of this data through some of our summer field days and events as well. 00:25:19:20 - 00:25:24:06 Todd Gleason Are you working with any other quote new unquote cover crops? 00:25:24:06 - 00:25:40:01 Nathan Johanning At this point in time? Those are the the ones that I've had the most familiarity with. I've heard a lot about, camelina. And I will say that I have not had a chance to firsthand, utilize it, or grow it. 00:25:40:04 - 00:26:10:24 Nathan Johanning So I'm hoping that's one that's kind of on maybe my short list to understand a little bit more. Also, I've worked some with, either winter oats or black oats, which are some that are some oat varieties. Most have a little more cold tolerance. I've had a little bit of, just on field kind of observations and experience with them, but the thought of a, maybe a lower seed and ratio grass that could maybe be a good fit ahead of corn that would have a little better winter survivability than when we just plant spring oats. 00:26:10:24 - 00:26:33:02 Nathan Johanning Maybe not necessarily survivability, but better ability to establish a little bit later. Kind of like the clover. If we're planning spring oats in the fall, we really need to get them out. You know, depends in your area, but certainly by mid-September is is kind of a decent threshold to get at least fairly substantial growth. You can go a little later, but just know that you're not going to have much growth. 00:26:33:02 - 00:26:48:15 Nathan Johanning Certainly once we get much in October, again, they may establish, but you may not. You're not going to get a plant very, very large. So those are a couple this on a a short list that while I haven't seen there may be on my I want to learn more list so. 00:26:48:21 - 00:26:55:18 Todd Gleason What practical advice might you have for a farmer that's interested in diversifying their cover crop mix? 00:26:55:20 - 00:27:18:26 Nathan Johanning The biggest thing that I would say is, look to obviously look to, some regional sources in your area, whether it be other farmers, researchers, and see what kind of things are out there. One of the other things that if you're looking for different things to include in your mix, I would be remiss to not include the resources of the Midwest Cover Crop Council. 00:27:18:28 - 00:27:49:19 Nathan Johanning So we have a great selector tool, through that, that group which is predominantly, organize by the land grant universities in the Midwest, along with some other agencies in industry as well. So with that, if you go to Midwest, cover crops.org, you can find the information there about that. The biggest thing is that is that selector tool, we go down to county specific level within a state, based off of our annual frost free dates. 00:27:49:22 - 00:28:13:24 Nathan Johanning And they will give you prescriptions as to where are the ideal times of the year, months of the year to establish different cover crops. So that's a great starting point. You can see all these species, but some of them have different fits. You want to make sure that you plant a cover crop that and invest in one that's going to have at least an optimal chance to perform under those conditions that you have. 00:28:13:24 - 00:28:42:21 Nathan Johanning So you don't want to say plant something like, I use buckwheat as a really basic example, buckwheat in, you know, the 1st of October, because it's extremely cold sensitive and frost sensitive. So that wouldn't be a good fit. And that selector tool will tell you things like that and more nuances, of course, and little more detailed than that one, which is a fairly simple example, but it's a great starting point to give you an idea of where these fit in our calendar year in general and and kind of how to use them. 00:28:42:21 - 00:29:08:09 Nathan Johanning Also, lots of great information on the traits they have. They rank them for different goals you may have. You can look into there's factsheets on each of them that give basic information. So that's a good a good starting point. And also I would say kind of start small. There's there is value of including really big diverse mixes with, you know, a dozen a different cover crops that don't feel like you have to do that to have some benefit. 00:29:08:11 - 00:29:38:09 Nathan Johanning Even just a mix that has 2 or 3 things can be perfectly viable. Don't let yourself get overwhelmed by needing to include as many species as possible. When you, to get a mix, when you could get very good benefits just from the thoughts of having a a grass and legume and maybe like a brassica like, like a rapeseed or radish in there, just a simple three way mix can be very beneficial as a, as a next step, if you want to make any kind of additions to your, cover crop plan. 00:29:38:10 - 00:29:49:16 Todd Gleason Nathan Johanning is a natural resources educator. The Illinois Nutrient Loss Reduction Podcast is produced with the aid of Rachel Curry and Nicole Haverback. I'm extension’s Todd Gleason.