Latest / When Will They Learn? / Episode #8 The Autonomy Debate

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Episode #8 The Autonomy Debate · When Will They Learn?

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to When Will They Learn?
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Greg Ashman.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Caiti Wade.
• 0:06
  This is the podcast where we explore what's trending in the
• 0:12
  world of education.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: In each episode,
• 0:14
  we discuss podcast articles and opinion pieces that are shaping
• 0:18
  education discourse
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: at the moment and examine these through a science of learning lens.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: We discuss not just what's popular, but what's supported by the evidence.
• 0:27
  In this week's episode,
• 0:28
  we'll be talking about banning cell phones,
• 0:31
  mobile phones.
• 0:32
  We're going to talk about standardized curricula and the
• 0:38
  effects that those have on teachers.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to be talking about critical thinking.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: And, Katie, it's very early today that we're meeting.
• 0:52
  We had to find some time in our schedule,
• 0:54
  so I'm feeling a bit bleary-eyed.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's a funny one because usually it's 6.15 in the morning here.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: But when we first started recording,
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: we were recording with the time difference between the two states.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm so used to a six o'clock podcast recording.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, oh, this is normal.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in a routine for it.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm used to stumbling into work at six to record a podcast.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's been fun.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: it reminds me of when I used to run my Filling the Pale podcast and I was
• 1:25
  interviewing people all over the world and I'd have to get up
• 1:27
  at silly times in the
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: morning or stay up late at night and things like that to interview them.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a bit of a return for me.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Shall we get started?
• 1:43
  The first article we wanted to talk about today was Five Things
• 1:48
  to Know About the
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Largest Cell Phone Bans Study,
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: and it's by Greg Toppo,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: and it is in the 74,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: and it's reporting on a study by N...
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: actually,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: a working paper by the National Bureau of Economic Research,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: the NBER,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: in the US,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: and basically they...
• 2:11
  are reporting on the effects of a cell phone ban,
• 2:14
  as they would call it,
• 2:15
  the Americans.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would probably call it a mobile phone ban.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, it's a particular type of phone ban.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: the policy,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: say,
• 2:27
  that we have at my school is that you just don't have your
• 2:31
  phones in sight between
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: 8.30 in the morning and 3.30 at night,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: and we sort of check that,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: and if students do have their phone out,
• 2:40
  we might take it away from them and give it back later and all
• 2:43
  that sort of stuff.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 2:46
  Greg Topo says that researchers find those sorts of policies
• 2:49
  harder to research,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: interestingly,
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  SPEAKER_00: because they're all implemented differently.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So some schools might say they do that,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: but they don't actually do that,
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: and kids tend to have their phone.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: if you're researching those schools,
• 3:02
  you're not actually researching the effect of a ban because the
• 3:05
  ban hasn't actually
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: been enforced.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, instead, this research is about yonder.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And yonder, as I understand it, I've never seen one.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: But as I understand it,
• 3:16
  it's a little pouch that the students put their phones in when
• 3:19
  they arrive at
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: school.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: It gets locked and it doesn't open again until they leave.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, it physically...
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: means that they can't have their phone.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just a case of...
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Keep it out of sight, keep it in your locker.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't be seen.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: They literally don't have it with them.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: They have it locked in this yonder pouch.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the research,
• 3:40
  it's not obviously a randomised control trial because you can't
• 3:43
  randomly assign
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: kids to...
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
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  I suppose you could randomly assign kids to having their phone
• 3:47
  locked in a pouch.
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  But I think they might object to that if they're in the
• 3:52
  intervention group.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: So instead, it's more like a before-after study and also it's phased.
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  SPEAKER_00: So there's a little bit of...
• 4:00
  Regression discontinuity going on there because the different
• 4:05
  schools adopted these
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  SPEAKER_00: policies in 2022,
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  SPEAKER_00: 2023,
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  SPEAKER_00: 2024.
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  The overall finding is that the headline is essentially that
• 4:19
  there was no impact on
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: academic outcomes of this firm ban.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a little bit more complicated than that.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: First of all,
• 4:29
  the Yonder patch worked to stop kids using their phones because
• 4:35
  the show students
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  SPEAKER_00: reporting using phones dropped from 61% to 13%.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it actually did stop them using their phones.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Discipline initially worsened, but then it got better.
• 4:46
  But I'm not sure there's an overall effect or maybe a slight
• 4:50
  overall effect,
• 4:51
  I don't know.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: The student well-being reduced initially and then bounced back.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Academic achievement gains were minimal,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
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  SPEAKER_00: and attendance,
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  SPEAKER_00: attention and bullying were unaffected.
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  SPEAKER_00: Interestingly...
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  SPEAKER_00: The newest cohorts,
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  SPEAKER_00: so as I said,
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  SPEAKER_00: the study ran across 2022,
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  SPEAKER_00: 2023,
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  SPEAKER_00: 2024,
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  SPEAKER_00: and the newer cohorts did see test scores rise in a short time.
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  So the researchers speculate that might be because the way we
• 5:26
  think about phone
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  SPEAKER_00: bands are changing,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: but that's not something you can get from the actual study itself.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think this is quite interesting because
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's a particular kind of phone ban that they're talking about.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And in the article,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Toppo says that,
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: 74% of US adults say they would support banning cell phones.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's an idea that has ripened.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: The time has come for this idea.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: But why would we want to do that if the academic effects are small?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a couple of thoughts on this.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly back in 2019.
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  SPEAKER_00: Were you at Clarendon in 2019, Katie, when we banned phones?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we banned phones here at the start of 2019.
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  SPEAKER_00: And for me...
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  I don't think I even thought about academic achievement when we
• 6:20
  were discussing that policy.
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  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't the reason we did it.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I remember going... Oh, sorry, you go?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, you go.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to say,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  that's actually probably the part that I found almost silly
• 6:31
  about this is the fact
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: that we would even go,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: is there going to be an impact on academic achievement?
• 6:36
  I don't see how taking a phone away is going to change the way
• 6:39
  that you're teaching
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: in the classroom or change what students are learning.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure that should be your purpose.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, quite.
• 6:47
  So I think the theory is that kids are using these phones in
• 6:50
  classrooms and getting
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: distracted and obviously teaching is an attention economy.
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  So if you take the phones away,
• 6:57
  they won't be using them,
• 6:58
  they won't be getting distracted.
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  But of course,
• 7:00
  they might be on Chromebooks or doing something else that's
• 7:03
  distracting them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
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  they wouldn't be at my school because we were using explicit
• 7:09
  teaching and we use
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  SPEAKER_00: quite a low tech approach.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we don't use laptops very often.
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  But many of these schools in this study could well have been
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  schools where kids
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  SPEAKER_00: have bring your own device.
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  or Chromebooks or something like that and so if the kids are
• 7:23
  not on their phones
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  messaging to each other they could be on their laptops
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  messaging to each other or
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  looking something up or something like that so that's a
• 7:31
  possible explanation for
• 7:32
  that but rolling it right back to the original purpose I mean I
• 7:37
  remember there's a
• 7:38
  lecture theatre here that you'll remember Caiti called the
• 7:41
  McClure Theatre and I
• 7:42
  remember walking in there at recess and seeing loads of kids
• 7:45
  just sat there looking
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: at their phones in recess not talking to each other
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  SPEAKER_00: That'd be so weird.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what we wanted to address.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So when we banned phones, I mean, it sounds really hot to ban phones.
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  When we asked students to leave their phones in their locker
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  between 8.30 and 3.30,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is essentially how our ban works,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's why we did it,
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  SPEAKER_00: because we wanted them to talk to each other at recess and at lunch,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we wanted them to socialise,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we didn't want them to be on their phones.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that was the reason that we did it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Did it work?
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  SPEAKER_00: Well,
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  SPEAKER_00: in that sense,
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  it certainly worked here because they talk to each other and
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  they socialise with
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  each other and they play down ball and things like that to the
• 8:30
  extent that maybe
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  SPEAKER_00: they weren't before we had the ban.
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  We speak about the fact that schools were created for your
• 8:38
  academic learning,
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  SPEAKER_01: but part of school is your social-emotional learning,
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  and you're not doing that if you're sat down on a phone not
• 8:46
  having a conversation
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  SPEAKER_01: with the people around you.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's not actually socialising.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
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  SPEAKER_00: look at us talking about social-emotional learning,
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: Caiti,
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  because we're supposed to be science-of-learning cultists who
• 8:57
  are only interested
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: in cramming facts into long-term memory.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, you know what?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: At this point,
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  I'll cut that out from the podcast so that nobody hears me say
• 9:05
  that social things
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: matter as well.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: We'll just get rid of it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course they do.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting to reflect on.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly why you do some of these things.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, obviously, you've got...
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: To be serious for a minute,
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: school wasn't created,
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: in my opinion,
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  SPEAKER_00: to deliver social emotional learning because in all societies,
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: kids do social emotional learning.
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  SPEAKER_00: They play with each other.
• 9:35
  And that happens in any society,
• 9:36
  even societies that are non-literate and
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: The reason we created schools,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: or I am of the view the reason we created schools,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: is to impart this biologically secondary knowledge,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: this knowledge that we haven't evolved to pick up entirely.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose reading is as well then.
• 10:23
  And so there hasn't been enough time for us to evolve
• 10:29
  mechanisms for picking that up.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why we created schools so that we could pass that on.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't mean that that's all schools are.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, whenever you've got...
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Organizations of people that consist of thousands of relationships,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: there's going to be a lot of social-emotional learning going on.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Some of it can be maladaptive as well.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Some of it, it's about the culture that you experience.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And school leaders need to be very clear about what that looks like.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: They can't be agnostic as to school culture.
• 11:02
  And a school culture where everyone sits around at recess on
• 11:05
  their phones,
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  SPEAKER_00: not talking to each other,
• 11:07
  I don't think is a good one because it's not allowing students
• 11:12
  to develop those
• 11:14
  relationship habits and ways of starting conversations and
• 11:19
  small talk and all those
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: sorts of things.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also the safety issue, though.
• 11:24
  We've seen in the last – the reason that AI has come up on this
• 11:28
  podcast and comes
• 11:29
  up so often in conversation is because there are all of the
• 11:32
  risks with misuse by
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: students.
• 11:35
  And I'm not talking students just going in and typing in their
• 11:37
  English assignment
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: and getting an AI platform to write that for them.
• 11:42
  We've seen the impacts of deepfakes,
• 11:45
  and that's been in the media where students have created –
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, videos or images using AI of their peers or of their teachers.
• 11:53
  So I'm like,
• 11:53
  so that in itself is a safety risk,
• 11:55
  but that's not a new thing.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, back in 2019, there are still safety risks.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Your phone is the camera that everyone's got.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there's other bigger issues,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: that come into it too from that perspective where,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: sure,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: you can test whether or not it's got anything,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: whether or not a phone ban is going to have an impact on academics,
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: but
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: You've obviously got your social emotional side.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day,
• 12:20
  even if students have the ability to socialize outside and with
• 12:23
  their friends or in
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: their peer groups outside of school,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: they do spend a good portion of every single weekday at school.
• 12:31
  And so that's another opportunity for them to do that and
• 12:34
  socialize with peers
• 12:35
  their age and learn things in an environment where it's safe
• 12:38
  and where we can have
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: strict boundaries.
• 12:40
  But we've then also got that safety issue where it's about
• 12:43
  protecting young people
• 12:44
  from doing things that could be dangerous or could be
• 12:49
  inappropriate uses of
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: technology.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Look, this is not actually a new problem.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I was an assistant principal in London.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: It would probably be about 2005, 2006, something like that.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I line managed two heads of year.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: So the way it was structured at that school,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: each year group had tutors and then there was a head of year.
• 13:17
  And then there was a head of year eight and there was a head of
• 13:20
  year nine.
• 13:20
  And as the assistant principal,
• 13:22
  I line managed the heads of year eight and nine.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I ended up getting involved in quite a lot of disciplinary issues.
• 13:29
  And the classic thing that could happen would be there'd be a
• 13:32
  fight at lunchtime.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I would be,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: talking to,
• 13:38
  I or someone else would have sort of broken this up and then
• 13:42
  I'd have the kids in
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: my office,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: not together probably,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: when I started talking to the other one.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: But in the background,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: while this is going on,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: while I'm trying to diffuse it,
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: I might even have got these two students to,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: not make up,
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: but come to an understanding with each other and agree that that,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: but
• 14:00
  I've got reports now that various gangs are going to arrive at
• 14:04
  the school gate at
• 14:05
  the end of the day based on sort of ethnic lines because kids
• 14:10
  have been texting
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: outside of the school.
• 14:12
  They've been saying there's been this fight and it's been this
• 14:14
  person versus this person.
• 14:15
  And so we'd have these reports then of these gangs that were
• 14:18
  going to arrive at the
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: school gate.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was an effect of having phones.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that was very,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:24
  we didn't really have the smartphones in the way that we do now
• 14:27
  back then.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: But that was an important impact.
• 14:30
  And I also worry about,
• 14:33
  I mean,
• 14:33
  I worry about this kind of surveilled society.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: When I was a teenager,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: young person embarking in the world,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: if I made a mistake,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: it was a bit embarrassing,
• 14:43
  but no one had filmed it and put it on YouTube or TikTok or
• 14:47
  something like that.
• 14:49
  And so I think that young people now have to live this very
• 14:53
  cautious life,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: always watching themselves,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: always protecting what they've done.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea that,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:01
  there might be something that happens at school that gets
• 15:03
  filmed and put on TikTok
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: to humiliate someone again.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Pardon?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's horrible.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it happens.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so this is why I don't want phones in schools.
• 15:16
  It's not really anything to do with academics,
• 15:20
  but just going back to that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So the argument,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose,
• 15:23
  is that people thought that they might have an impact on
• 15:29
  academic outcomes because
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: there'd be less distractions in class.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, maybe.
• 15:34
  I mean,
• 15:34
  maybe there should be,
• 15:35
  but as I was saying earlier,
• 15:37
  if there are other distractions,
• 15:40
  Sources of a distraction instead that students will use if
• 15:43
  they're doing group work
• 15:45
  or something like that doing project work where they can slack
• 15:49
  off and just let
• 15:50
  someone else do the work or something like that then the fact
• 15:53
  that you've banned
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Phones won't make any difference.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: To make a difference,
• 15:59
  that has to be the last distraction that you remove from the
• 16:02
  classroom so that kids
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: can focus purely on the instruction.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: If it's just one distraction that you've removed from the classroom,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: then they will just turn to others.
• 16:14
  I mean,
• 16:14
  have we just replaced phones,
• 16:16
  though,
• 16:16
  with bigger phones in the classroom?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because how many,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: we spoke about it last time,
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: but how many schools have high use of its laptops or iPads?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: iPads are a big phone.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Your students are messaging on their iPads.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: They're still doing the same things.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: They're taking photos.
• 16:31
  If you've got a laptop out in your classroom,
• 16:34
  there's a good chance they're flicking between
• 16:38
  I was reflecting on the last episode and thinking about that
• 16:42
  idea of using
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: technology or not using technology in the classroom.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: goodness,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: it was like for me,
• 16:48
  I'll go into a meeting as a fully grown adult with a physical
• 16:52
  planner because I
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: know that if I bring my laptop,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: just seeing the notifications that pop up even on a work laptop in a work
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: environment is really distracting for me.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you're just constantly getting all these different inputs.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's not any different from students because we,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: and regardless of whether someone says,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: but we've blocked this and we've blocked that.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, they will find, they'll find a way of doing something.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I should confess this.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I remember being in year eight in school and Twitter was very new.
• 17:23
  And Twitter had not yet,
• 17:25
  Twitter had not yet been blocked on the school computer system.
• 17:30
  I'm very conscious for those of you listening that I did go to
• 17:33
  Clarendon at this point.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And for a good week or two,
• 17:37
  I was able to have conversations with friends just live on
• 17:40
  Twitter when I was at
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: school.
• 17:42
  And so at lunchtime,
• 17:43
  rather than you chat to friends,
• 17:44
  you'd have your computer open.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: And to be fair, caught onto it very quickly.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just you as students,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: you'll find a way and you'll find the one thing that's not blocked yet.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll use that, which is why if we don't
• 17:57
  If we don't set up conditions in the classrooms to remove all
• 18:01
  distractions,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: you can get rid of the mobile phone,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: but that's just the one that's most convenient.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Then if you're bringing in your iPad or your laptop,
• 18:09
  they're going to just switch and they're going to use that and
• 18:11
  they're going to
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: find a platform so that they can do whatever it is they want to do.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Before we go on to your next one, you mentioned last episode.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Last episode,
• 18:27
  we talked about John Hattie and we talked about the accusations
• 18:30
  levelled against
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: him by Stephen Wanker.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Stephen Wanker took issue.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So Katie, you're up.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: What's next?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: I am.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: This time around,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: we were sent in a lot of articles from listeners as a heads up,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: and we've picked out a couple.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: This particular article was sent in by a listener.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: We've had to sort through
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Quite a few.
• 19:14
  What we've gone with is this one because it is a good topic of
• 19:17
  conversation,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: something that keeps coming up.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: This one isn't a new study.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's the study called Are You On Slide 8 Yet?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: The Impact of Standardised Curricula on Teacher Professionalism.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that particular study is done as a,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: or it's a report,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: sorry,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: for the National Education Union.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 19:38
  essentially the whole purpose of this study was to understand
• 19:44
  what teachers'
• 19:45
  experience is and what the proportion of use of standardized
• 19:50
  curricula is.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, standardized curricula is defined relatively broadly.
• 19:56
  But they've used,
• 19:58
  I mean,
• 19:58
  they've essentially used when similar resources are being used.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they do specifically reference, is it National Oak Academy?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Have I got the name right?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oak National Academy.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I was going to get it out of order.
• 20:11
  And they've specifically referenced that,
• 20:14
  which is a UK company or a UK firm.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Would you call it a company, a UK organisation?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 20:20
  I think it started during the pandemic to produce sort of
• 20:26
  asynchronous lessons that
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: schools could use.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think it got taken over by the government.
• 20:33
  But yeah,
• 20:35
  I'm not 100% certain on exactly what its governance structure
• 20:38
  is.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, great.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: so look,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: it's a study done in,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: done in England,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: and really their whole focus was to look into if we have these
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Resources that we can take and just put into classrooms and teachers can,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: go and run and use or teach these,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: which is what they're calling a standardized curricula.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's, well, how likely are teachers to use them?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: What's the uptake on that?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then generally just to understand,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: what's the impact of that on teacher,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say teacher views of professional autonomy.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just flick to my summaries page.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 21:17
  So I'll start off just with a couple of summaries of what
• 21:20
  they've found with this.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: First one is that they say that standardized curricula of some kind,
• 21:29
  and they do recognize in the report that they've got a very
• 21:33
  broad definition of
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: this,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: but standardized curricula is used by,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: they've said,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: 90% of primary teachers and 54% of secondary teachers.
• 21:43
  And they do point out that there's really common usage in maths
• 21:45
  and English,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: which you'd probably expect because even anecdotally,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of resources out there in that.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: They do get into whether or not those are considered in-house resources.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I found my words.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Whether they're in-house resources,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: so things that people within your team have created and shared,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: and those ones were particularly common at secondary school,
• 22:10
  or whether they're things that were sort of just taken from
• 22:12
  companies like our,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to get it,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oak National Academy.
• 22:17
  Everyone from the UK who's listening is going to be appalled at
• 22:20
  me getting that in
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: the wrong order every single time I say it.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the part that I really wanted to draw on,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: which was,
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm going to read a quote from it,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: highlighted,
• 22:29
  teachers who use standardized curricula reported a reduced
• 22:33
  sense of professional
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: autonomy.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting to...
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Look,
• 22:43
  it's interesting to talk about professional autonomy because
• 22:46
  that in itself I think
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: you can define so differently.
• 22:49
  I think for some people professional autonomy can be the
• 22:53
  ability to walk into your
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: classroom and just do whatever it is you want.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: to a degree,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: how does a national curriculum,
• 23:02
  how does that impact this idea of professional autonomy if I'm
• 23:05
  being told these are
• 23:06
  the important skills you need to teach in maths at this
• 23:08
  particular age group?
• 23:13
  Yeah,
• 23:13
  actually,
• 23:13
  no,
• 23:13
  I'll come to that in a moment because I've got a lot of
• 23:15
  thoughts on this.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just making sure I don't get too passionate too early on on this one.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think these researchers have essentially discovered a tautology.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: So tautology is when you say the same thing in different ways.
• 23:30
  I'm not an English teacher,
• 23:31
  so I don't know whether that's the strict definition.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: But if you say to people, does using the standardized resources...
• 23:42
  Reduce Your Professional Autonomy Well yes it does obviously
• 23:47
  like by definition
• 23:48
  because you're not making it up yourself you're using some
• 23:51
  other resource so it's
• 23:52
  just it automatically flows it's not from the use of those
• 23:58
  resources so there's not
• 23:59
  a lot really that that is new or particularly interesting about
• 24:05
  finding that out I
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: suppose that the broader question is whether there are
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that's a good thing,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: a bad thing,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: whether there are trade-offs,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: whether there are benefits,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: whether there's costs.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of teachers find it quite enjoyable to produce lesser materials,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: and so you're trading that off.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: But there are also benefits.
• 24:26
  So if you and I are teaching Caiti and I'm just doing my own
• 24:30
  thing and you're doing
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: your own thing and you're a really good teacher,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: then the kids in my class are going to miss out.
• 24:36
  But if I'm using your resources,
• 24:37
  then there might be something in there that I can't.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't thought to do or mention or an example.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's less of a difference between us.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 24:48
  that's not necessarily great for me as a teacher and how I feel
• 24:53
  about what I'm
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: doing right now.
• 24:54
  But it's got to be the better outcome for the students in our
• 24:58
  two classes.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we're trading these things off.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you know, clearly there is a loss of autonomy.
• 25:07
  But we're a profession and,
• 25:09
  you know,
• 25:09
  I think we're the only profession really,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Where we think of autonomy as our ability to basically do what we like.
• 25:18
  I've had two hips replaced and I'm glad the surgeon just didn't
• 25:24
  do it however he felt inclined.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 25:28
  no one says that surgeons lack professionalism because they
• 25:36
  lack the autonomy to do
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: surgery however they like.
• 25:40
  In a profession such as surgery or medicine more generally or
• 25:45
  engineering,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: autonomy is defined as the profession running itself.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, it's governed by itself.
• 25:53
  So,
• 25:53
  surgeons govern the standards that surgeons have to meet,
• 25:57
  not some external body.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: In teaching, we've got that all the other way around.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Other people tell us what to do.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Other people govern the profession.
• 26:05
  And then we get to define our autonomy as our ability to do
• 26:10
  what we like in the classroom.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, I think that's an interesting one.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And clearly, look, the NEU...
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is an interesting organisation in itself.
• 26:18
  It's quite unusual in my experience to read something from them
• 26:24
  that's about education.
• 26:25
  They're usually embarked in all sorts of different political
• 26:28
  campaigns about
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: politics in the Middle East or something like that.
• 26:32
  So it's actually quite refreshing to see something that is
• 26:35
  about education.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 26:41
  Clearly,
• 26:41
  they're not very happy with whatever the standardized curricula
• 26:45
  are.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: And at one point they say,
• 26:48
  while in other contexts teachers are expected to adhere very
• 26:51
  closely to the
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: standardized curriculum design,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: in the
• 26:54
  In international literature,
• 26:55
  the latter are sometimes referred to as scripted curricula.
• 26:59
  I think that's really confusing because following a curriculum
• 27:03
  closely is not the
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: same thing as literally reading a script.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you might say, well, but it's a good metaphor.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: You have to follow it very closely.
• 27:12
  But the problem is in education,
• 27:14
  there are programs where you do literally read a script.
• 27:16
  So I want to be able to distinguish between direct instruction
• 27:20
  programs where you
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: literally read a script and
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: And programs that are very well-defined,
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: what you do and when you do it,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: but you're not reading from a script.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: And calling all of them scripted curricula, I think, is a problem.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they obviously...
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what Oak National Academy has done,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: but they've obviously got it in for Oak in some way.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And they kind of give themselves away because at one point,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: so one of the potential benefits of the standardized curricula is an
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: infrastructure.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it teaches workload.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: It should help your work-life balance.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: You do still have to
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:22
  I don't think anyone would argue preparing to teach a lesson
• 28:26
  where someone's
• 28:26
  produced all the resources for you and everything is going to
• 28:30
  take more time than
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: actually generating that all from scratch,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:35
  sitting at the computer at midnight trying to Google a
• 28:38
  worksheet or something that
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: may or may not be particularly appropriate for what you're trying to do,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: but it's the one thing you can find.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also that preparation that you talk about, that looks different.
• 28:50
  Your preparation of building a lesson from scratch is you
• 28:52
  thinking,
• 28:53
  well,
• 28:53
  what can I include?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: What elements can I put in?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: How do I fill out this time slot?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And your focus,
• 28:58
  while there's elements of you trying to do the best thing for
• 29:01
  your students,
• 29:01
  your focus is really on filling that time with things and
• 29:05
  building up those things
• 29:06
  or finding those things from somewhere or using whatever AI
• 29:09
  tool to try to build
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: your lessons for you and then complaining because it does a terrible job.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: When you've got a standardized curricula that
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got resources that you're just pulling in,
• 29:18
  that shifts your preparation focus because then your
• 29:21
  preparation is on how you're
• 29:21
  going to deliver that material and what issues are potentially
• 29:25
  going to come up.
• 29:26
  When I walk into a room and I've got a set of slides that I
• 29:29
  know is written,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: when I'm doing my prep for it,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going through it and my thought process isn't,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, how am I going to sequence?
• 29:35
  As a math teacher,
• 29:36
  if I'm writing from scratch,
• 29:37
  I go,
• 29:38
  how am I going to sequence these examples?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: What do I need to include?
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: How many things do I need to include on each type of example?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do these questions work?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Are they minimally different?
• 29:48
  Or have I accidentally included a bunch of fractions in the
• 29:53
  student questions and
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: not the I do's or the worked examples?
• 29:58
  When I switch and I'm given a PowerPoint or I've got one that's
• 30:01
  pre-written and I'm
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: just going through it,
• 30:03
  My thought process is where are the areas that my students are
• 30:06
  going to have difficulty?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do to get on the front foot?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And how can I,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: in my teaching or in my explanation,
• 30:14
  deal with these things that I know are going to be really
• 30:16
  challenging before I walk
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: into that room?
• 30:19
  What can I do to actually get on the front foot with that from
• 30:21
  an instructional
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: level,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: which to me gives me more professional autonomy?
• 30:27
  And I think,
• 30:28
  you know,
• 30:28
  we can argue back and forth on the definition of it,
• 30:31
  but
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: That,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: to me,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: gives me the ability to go,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I know my students and I know that they're going to struggle.
• 30:37
  I love giving the example of I know they're going to struggle
• 30:39
  with adding fractions.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Even with a set of,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: rigid slides or rigid questions that I'm teaching,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: along with other teachers in a team,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to go,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 30:51
  my students can't add fractions and we're doing calculus and it
• 30:53
  involves adding
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: fractions.
• 30:54
  So I guess they're just going to be,
• 30:56
  they're just going to,
• 30:57
  you know,
• 30:57
  be stuffed on this.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, it means that in my preparation, I go,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right before we do this,
• 31:03
  maybe I will do a quick drill beforehand or maybe I will insert
• 31:06
  something in,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: but I've got the time to actually think those things through,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: plan for them.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: And where it's relevant or where it's something big,
• 31:14
  actually share that with the other people in the same teaching
• 31:18
  team so that if
• 31:19
  someone else is having the same issue or someone else knows
• 31:21
  that's going to come
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: up,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: they've got the same resource that they can go,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: actually,
• 31:26
  let's do a really quick fraction drill at the start so that the
• 31:28
  rest of my lesson
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: doesn't fall to pieces.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're not tied to it.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah.
• 31:35
  I mean,
• 31:35
  some people would say,
• 31:36
  well,
• 31:36
  a standardized curriculum,
• 31:37
  you are tied to it.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it depends on how you use it.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it depends on how you use the resources that you've got.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I know at Clarendon, we use curriculum guidelines.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Relatively flexibly.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: So what you're talking about saying maths,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: there's no expectation that a teacher teaches every single example.
• 31:53
  There's meant to be like too many examples so that when the
• 31:57
  teacher goes through
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: they can make those choices.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not sure necessarily.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: But you are having to prepare these,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: like you were saying,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: just keeping kids busy is relatively easy.
• 32:29
  I can ask them to do research and make a poster or something
• 32:32
  and that's my plan.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And just prepare it.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: So there should be a workload advantage.
• 32:53
  But I think teachers often are very conscientious and sometimes
• 32:58
  in a good way,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: but sometimes in ways that are not hugely productive.
• 33:05
  So they might be taking the workload gains and just deploying
• 33:10
  that time elsewhere.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say,
• 33:12
  I'm aware of a case of a teacher taking a PowerPoint that
• 33:17
  they'd been given and
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: going through each slide,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: putting a border around the slide.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a particularly useful use of time,
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: but they wanted to add their own sort of personal touch to it.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And of course...
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: I can do that with a PowerPoint template.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're doing that all wrong.
• 33:33
  Yeah,
• 33:34
  and one of the biggest things that sort of drains time out of
• 33:42
  teachers is marking.
• 33:44
  So this idea that we have to take up everything that the kids
• 33:47
  do and put a tick or
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: cross next to it,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: write some comments,
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: that sort of stuff.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's no evidence that that does anything really,
• 33:54
  particularly the really labour-intensive essay marking that
• 33:59
  English teachers
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: traditionally do.
• 34:01
  It's not hugely effective and a whole class feedback at the
• 34:04
  start of the next
• 34:05
  lesson after you've read the essays might be a more efficient
• 34:08
  way of dealing with
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: this.
• 34:10
  So teachers will not necessarily opt to do things in the most
• 34:15
  efficient way.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: When Will They Learn?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: But really interestingly,
• 34:48
  after sort of dancing around the topic of workload and kind of
• 34:53
  suggesting that
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: standardised curriculum might have an impact on workload,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: but it's not a very big impact on workload,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: it then says this about Oak National Academy.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Workload advantages were identified among some survey respondents.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not possible to claim these are specific to oak.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: So in other words,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: at this point,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: they're saying that yes,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: oak,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: some people said it gives them workload advantages,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: but maybe other standardized curriculum give workload advantages too.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not special about oak.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: But this is in the context of the report being kind of down on...
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not quite sure what their...
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: What their game is.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
• 35:37
  an education union is supposed to be advancing the cause of
• 35:41
  teachers' paying
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: conditions.
• 35:43
  So if standardized curriculum did reduce workload,
• 35:48
  they should be in favor of that.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine that's what a union should do.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: But the National Education Union is a very particular beast,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: a very sort of unusual kind of a union.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's not what they're all about either.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I found it was quite an interesting summary.
• 36:09
  And I just kept wondering as I was reading through,
• 36:11
  what's this really about?
• 36:13
  Because it seemed like there was something under the surface
• 36:18
  here that they were
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: trying to get at that wasn't quite apparent in the report itself.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: Are they just saying what teachers want to hear?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: If you go on any teaching page online,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: you will see in Australia as well,
• 36:34
  because we have different standardized curriculum resources
• 36:39
  that are made by
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: different organizations or by different state governments.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: We've got those.
• 36:44
  And if you're on any online teaching group,
• 36:47
  there's a lot of discussion about
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, does anyone else hate these?
• 36:51
  Does anyone else feel like they're not able to respond to the
• 36:54
  needs of their class?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're not able to do this or that?
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's this,
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 36:59
  I think it's recognising a very real feeling that people can
• 37:01
  sometimes look at,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:03
  look at their set of slides or their resources and feel as
• 37:06
  though they're trapped
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: in them.
• 37:07
  And maybe that's where the use of them needs to be a little bit
• 37:11
  different.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because what I've wondered in Australia,
• 37:13
  seeing a lot of these posts online and speaking to teachers who
• 37:17
  have used them and
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: have said,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like X resources for whatever reason.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder how much of that is...
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Leadership Teams at Schools going,
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 37:27
  we've heard that schools have completely turned around their
• 37:29
  results using this
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: explicit instruction,
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: low-variant stuff.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: They've gone, here's the resources that they're using to do it.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_01: You guys take them and run with that,
• 37:38
  but aren't actually giving staff the guidance around how to
• 37:41
  take a set of existing
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: slides or an existing resource and adapt or be responsive on the spot.
• 37:48
  Because a slideshow can be absolutely brilliant or it can be
• 37:52
  really terrible and
• 37:54
  But a lot of the way that's going to translate into student
• 38:00
  learning is the way
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: that that's delivered in your classroom.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm running through with my PowerPoint clicker,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: just clicking every single slide,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: and I know that I've had conversations with teachers who have seen,
• 38:13
  they've had animated slides where they animate in the solutions
• 38:16
  and they go,
• 38:17
  but I'm not even teaching because I stand there and I just
• 38:19
  press like next,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: next,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: next,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: and I explain it.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like,
• 38:22
  But nothing tells you you have to do,
• 38:24
  you can still do it with your whiteboard marker.
• 38:25
  The animations are there as a teacher,
• 38:27
  so you know how to do the solution.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to teach it by just clicking a button.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: You should keep your whiteboard marker in your hand.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's right.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more than just the resources,
• 38:40
  and you can't just take a set of resources and bring them into
• 38:43
  a school and go,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: there you are,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: and then that's sorted.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because two things.
• 38:47
  First of all,
• 38:47
  you'll get everyone's backs up,
• 38:49
  so all the teachers will go,
• 38:50
  oh,
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, so why are these so good?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this so much better than what we did?
• 38:55
  And if there's a single flaw,
• 38:57
  if there's one mistake,
• 38:58
  it's like that's gone.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's like these resources are terrible.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: But secondly, you're right.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Who's the principal here and I,
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: we spend a lot of time with teachers who are new to the school,
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: really trying to explain exactly what you've just talked about.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: We say, look, we do many whiteboard questions throughout the lesson.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you think we do those?
• 39:19
  Because if all we're going to do is just click through the
• 39:23
  slides regardless,
• 39:25
  then there's no point asking the kids any questions because
• 39:28
  you're not doing
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: anything without evidence.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you ask a question and the kids all get it wrong,
• 39:33
  Then you know that maybe you need to focus a little bit more on
• 39:36
  this part of the lesson.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully,
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: as I said in our resources,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: there should be an excess of questions to draw on,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: to do more and more and more examples.
• 39:44
  But if everything's going really well and they can do the hard
• 39:47
  ones straight up,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: You might bounce over that bit of lesson.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And similarly,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: we have all the solutions to all the questions,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: but they're there for the teacher when they're preparing.
• 39:58
  That's what they're for,
• 39:58
  so that I'm not using short division and you're using long
• 40:02
  division.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then when the kids change teacher at the end of the year,
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: they're confused because they've been given a different method.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: So they're there for the preparation.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the teacher...
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: it's obvious to me,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: but it's meant to model how you do it with a pen in hand,
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: actually solving the problem themselves,
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: thinking aloud as they're doing it,
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: and not just put up the solutions.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: But you're right, some people think they just put up the solutions.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, Greg, I've got a wild question for you then.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say this,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: you're in a class,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: it's a maths classroom,
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: but I won't keep it too maths specific.
• 40:38
  You're in a maths classroom and you've got your set of slides
• 40:40
  that everybody's
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: using and it's your standardised or your low variant set of slides.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: And when you walk in there,
• 40:45
  you start teaching and you get to a question and you realise
• 40:48
  that your students are
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: missing this piece of foundational prerequisite knowledge.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: So they're missing something that they need to even begin that problem.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you don't have anything in your slides for that.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: So this could be my adding fractions and doing calculus.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: You've got nothing in your slides.
• 41:04
  Greg,
• 41:04
  as someone who uses a standardized curriculum,
• 41:06
  what are you going to do?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'd make something up.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa, did everyone hear that?
• 41:12
  So wait,
• 41:13
  so professional judgment,
• 41:15
  professional autonomy,
• 41:16
  you can do that still.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: But, and I would add this, I would feed that back.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: So next time,
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: I can predict that next year when we teach this again,
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: the same thing's going to happen because kids are the same,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: largely.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: The differences between them are exaggerated.
• 41:34
  So I can pretty much predict that next year's class,
• 41:36
  we're going to have the same problem.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to make sure that...
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Before next year,
• 41:41
  we add something to the resources so that everyone has that and
• 41:44
  they don't have to
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: make that up.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, in that particular situation, I would make something up.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's it.
• 41:49
  It's the fact that you said you can feed that back into the
• 41:52
  resources because not
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: only does that stop what happens next year,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: but you use the word predict.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: I...
• 41:59
  Like I say when I'm prepping for a list and if I've got a
• 42:02
  standard I set of
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: resources,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: what I do is I try to predict what my students are going to do.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I can only predict what they do because,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: one,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've taught for a long time and I've taught a lot of maths and I go,
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: here's the part they always fall apart in.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I know that information because I've done it.
• 42:16
  But I also know it because I know my students and I get to know
• 42:19
  them and I get to
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: know,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: here are the areas they often fall down.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's commonalities between those.
• 42:24
  But those are things that I wouldn't necessarily expect someone
• 42:29
  who's very new to
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: teaching a subject or even new to teaching at all.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, that's not a generalization, but just as a...
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: As a skill,
• 42:38
  it's something that takes a bit of time for you to develop and
• 42:41
  you need to build up
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: that understanding.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: So by you saying,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: if we predict things and we feed those back into the resources,
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: that stops early career teachers from falling into that same trap.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it stops that argument that students have where they say,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 42:59
  this is unfair because we don't understand anything and we
• 43:01
  don't understand what
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: this teacher's teaching and this person can't teach.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: It actually helps to alleviate that because
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're using high quality resources.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're using the same methods.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: They've got that kind of support.
• 43:12
  And the things that a teacher who might have been doing it for
• 43:15
  a while or someone
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: who's really thought about it might go,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 43:18
  I'm predicting that my students are going to struggle and
• 43:20
  they've written that into
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: some kind of standardised resource.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: By them doing that,
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: they've actually helped someone who might not have,
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's the subject experience or teaching experience,
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: to make that judgement ahead of time.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: So they've helped somebody else.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 43:37
  Every individual teacher doesn't have to discover these things
• 43:39
  for themselves.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: Shall we talk briefly about the last article, Caiti?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think we should.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually, I'm really excited for us to talk about the last article.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: I will let you introduce it.
• 43:58
  I'm excited because this one references some work from James
• 44:01
  Dobson and I know that
• 44:02
  James Dobson is a listener of the podcast because James does
• 44:07
  message me every
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: couple of weeks going,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: amazing news.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: I thought there was only one episode released.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: There were two episodes.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think his exact quote is,
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's made my entire week best thing ever,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: but that was how I read it to be.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what he meant, obviously.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: So this is an article in Education HQ,
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Australian Teachers Let Down by Flawed Critical Thinking Capability,
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Instructional Coach by Sarah Duggan.
• 44:35
  And she's basically interviewing James Dobson about the fact
• 44:40
  that in the Australian curriculum,
• 44:44
  We have these general capabilities,
• 44:47
  but they're false because they're not general capabilities.
• 44:52
  So we have them written into the Australian curriculum,
• 44:54
  but they don't exist in reality.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And one of these general capabilities,
• 44:59
  Capabilities that is not a general capability is critical and
• 45:02
  creative thinking.
• 45:04
  And so Duggan talks to James Dobson and he explains pretty well
• 45:12
  why that's not...
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why it's not a general capability.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then she also refers back to the big boss,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: John Sweller,
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: and an article that he contributed to for Education HQ a few years ago,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: where he also explains that
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a general capability.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: And briefly,
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: the argument,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: and partly James Dobson is responding to a microbiologist,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Jake Robinson,
• 45:43
  who said that school curricula need to be radically rethought
• 45:48
  to teach kids to ask
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: why,
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: to focus more on critical thinking skills,
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: power students to think outside the box.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think we reviewed that on the podcast, didn't we?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Did we?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: We probably did.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 46:02
  I read it and I vaguely remembered the name and then I never
• 46:05
  went back to look.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: I went, I've spoken to someone about it.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: We did talk about it on the podcast.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we did.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about and write about so many things.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: That was it.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: Instantly forget them.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: Was it you?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Was it someone else?
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, we did.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's all coming back to me now.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 46:23
  and he makes the point that often people just assume these
• 46:29
  things exist and are
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: teachable.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: And people,
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: particularly outside the field of education,
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: they go,
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: what we really need is students who can ask why.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they're not asking why enough.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is that part of this is dispositional.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: So in some cultures,
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: for instance,
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: you don't question the boss because culturally that's not what you do.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: And in other cultures, it's okay.
• 46:55
  So there's a cultural dispositional element to some of the
• 47:00
  things that we call
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: critical thinking.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe they are general, but they're fairly limited in what they mean.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of the other stuff that we might call critical thinking,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: that usually comes from,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: it largely comes from
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: What James calls domain knowledge.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Domain sounds a bit technical, but really it's just subject knowledge.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want students to think critically about history,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: they first need to know a lot of history.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: If they then have the disposition to ask why,
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: they will start asking why,
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: because things will occur to them.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: They'll go, well, wait a bit, this doesn't line up with that.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or, oh, this graph doesn't look like what it's supposed to in history.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: In this science thing, because I know from this other aspect, so why?
• 47:45
  But they're not going to go into the area knowing nothing and
• 47:49
  asking lots of
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: questions,
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: because they don't know what questions to ask.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the same with all these other aspects of critical thinking.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: So source analysis, for instance, who is...
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: Who has written this source and what is their agenda?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: A bit like what I was thinking with the NEU article.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Why have they written this?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: What's their agenda?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I couldn't answer it.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the problem.
• 48:14
  If you don't have knowledge,
• 48:17
  relevant knowledge,
• 48:17
  you can't answer those questions.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you're given a historical source and you say,
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: so who wrote this and what's their agenda?
• 48:24
  Well,
• 48:24
  I don't know because they don't have the historical knowledge,
• 48:27
  so I can't answer that.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not a useful thing.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you do have that historical knowledge and you do know...
• 48:33
  That it's a book about Protestant martyrs written by a
• 48:39
  Protestant propagandist
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: during the Reformation,
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: then you have lots of information to understand that source.
• 48:48
  You will look at it very critically and you will analyse it in
• 48:51
  a critical way.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: But unless you have that knowledge,
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: and you'll almost do it automatically,
• 48:55
  you don't need to be prompted with some critical thinking
• 48:58
  routine in order to do
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: that.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as those ideas sort of pop into your head from your long
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:24
  Oh,
• 49:24
  that's going to fit in with anybody's personal experience of
• 49:27
  something.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: You have a lot of people out there who,
• 49:29
  and I'm really conscious to try not to give too many
• 49:31
  maths-heavy examples,
• 49:33
  because whilst you can chuck a bunch of maths at me and I can
• 49:38
  think critically or
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: whatever about it,
• 49:40
  while I can actually go through and I can analyse and start
• 49:42
  bringing things
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: together...
• 49:44
  I need to have a certain level of background knowledge to be
• 49:46
  able to do that.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you come and speak to me about a bunch of historical events,
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: there is a very good chance I'm going to go,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 49:54
  I'm just taking whatever you say as it is because I do not have
• 49:57
  any knowledge of
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that as people.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we shouldn't be surprised.
• 50:04
  It's not always that our own experience is going to line up
• 50:07
  with what's necessarily true.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say, you know, most effective practice in the classroom.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's not necessarily, I don't want to say not intuitive.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: No, and it's all nonsense, isn't it?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just a part of the problem.
• 50:23
  When you've got an Australian curriculum that is deeply
• 50:26
  unambitious when it comes
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: to like the maths or the science it actually wants students to know,
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: but then adds in all these...
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: it's just a nonsense,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: but I'll give you,
• 50:45
  you say it's intuitive that you need background knowledge for
• 50:49
  critical thinking.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: it is to me,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe it is to you,
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: but it wasn't to this dude who was,
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: what's his name?
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: The one that we talked about, Dr. Jake Robinson.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I reckon this is because of something called the curse of knowledge.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have knowledge in long-term memory,
• 51:09
  you can retrieve that effortlessly and it feels effortless and
• 51:15
  therefore what you
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: know feels to you to be obvious.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you completely...
• 51:22
  Will They Underrate The Process Of Getting That Into Your Long
• 51:26
  Term Memory Because
• 51:26
  It Seems So Obvious To You So Jake Robinson Has Spent Years
• 51:31
  Studying Science Very
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Laboriously Putting Information In His Long Term Memory
• 51:37
  Probably didn't think of it that way,
• 51:38
  but that's what that process involves.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: And now that's all there at his fingertips.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so he's devalued all of that.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't, oh, that's just, oh, that's just some facts.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you could look those up if you needed to.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: What's really important?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a commonplace trap,
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: that people fall into,
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: particularly people with lots of expertise.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Maths professors talk about this a lot as well.
• 52:07
  They'll say about,
• 52:08
  you know,
• 52:08
  what we really need to do is get kids making conjectures.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, on what?
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: On what basis?
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: How?
• 52:16
  First of all,
• 52:16
  they need to have lots of knowledge in long-term memory to be
• 52:19
  able to do that.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this curse of knowledge,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: which teachers suffer from too,
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: it seems obvious to us,
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: so why does this kid find it so hard to grasp?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: This curse of knowledge,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: the ease with which we can retrieve stuff from long-term memory,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: that's probably where some of this stuff is coming from.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: That was When Will They Learn?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening.
• 52:42
  If it sounded like the conversation ended really abruptly at
• 52:44
  the end there,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: it wasn't because Greg and I just totally stopped talking.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, we lost the last 10 minutes of audio on the recording.
• 52:54
  And my impersonation of Greg wasn't good enough for me to fake
• 52:57
  it and insert a fake
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: bit at the end here.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: So instead,
• 53:00
  you'll have to wait until next time to hear all of the
• 53:03
  incredible stuff that Greg
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: and I spoke about.
• 53:05
  If you do have any podcast articles or opinion pieces that you
• 53:08
  want included next
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: time,
• 53:10
  please drop those to either Greg or myself on any of our
• 53:13
  socials and you can find
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: those in the show notes.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise,
• 53:16
  if there's anything that you want to reference or any of the
• 53:19
  resources from today's
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: episode,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: please check the show notes for those.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.