Latest / Skin Anarchy / Daniel Isaacs, Research Director for Medik8 Skincare

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Daniel Isaacs, Research Director for Medik8 Skincare · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure all of you have heard of the brand, Daniel Isaac.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome to the show, Dan.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited that you're here.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, actually.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's an absolute pleasure to be here.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Looking forward to it.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm excited to um finally learn about this brand because I've seen um Medicaid everywhere, right?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's just like something I I've never known about the real science that went behind it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: But first, to get started, I want to um ask you about your your career and how you ended up with the company and um how all of this came to be.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, lots of good questions in there.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I I got into um the world of skincare through a um more of a pure chemistry route.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I studied at university.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um straight after university there was an opportunity that came up um with my brother, who, as you said, uh founded um originally founded um Medicaid.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it was a um it was it was a sort of a baptism of fire, as it were, because Elliot had this um very bold vision from the very early days of Medicaid, where he was trying to create this almost impossible hybrid of a brand that could have all of the you know ethical values and uh you know naturally you know led values as brands like um well Body Shop at the time, which was a brand that he was particularly inspired by, um, but also using his own sort of scientific background and our kind of family history of being around you know science and research, our father was a pharmacist, um, and so to create a brand that could have all of these scientific principles while also to be a brand that people could really love, that offered great textures and experiences, and you know, doing both of those things is actually a very difficult thing to do.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so Elliot tasked me with the sort of the hard scientific job and product development task of creating products that could really fulfill both of those things.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, it was it was a uh it was uh very much jumping into the deep end, trying to create these very, very technically difficult products um but without compromising on you know the uh the experience of using them.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, but I never looked back.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: It was uh it was a it was a tough start, but uh yeah, I quickly fell in love with the industry.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean that is such a great point that you just started us off with is that balance.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, I want to definitely dive into that because I think that's the big problem right now that I'm seeing, right?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's like a lot of people are talking about either it needs to be natural or clinical grade skincare.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to, you know, I want you to like go into that for us um, you know, maybe later in the interview, but you know, just to kind of give everybody a preface, like what are some of the um like some of the problems that Medicaid was like originally focusing in on when it comes when it came to skin health?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like what were some of the big ones?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think that, and it's gonna speak to what you just said in terms of you know um uh demystifying, I think, the world of skincare.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was Elliot's original vision.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's something that I very much got on board with originally, was that I think at the time, and it wasn't so long ago, but it feels long ago, we're talking, you know, 10, 15 years ago, it was actually quite hard to find for people to find you know the information and to find products that were really having an impact on your skin's appearance and its health.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and and what was kind of crazy for us as we were doing our research into you know truly effective ingredients and combinations and concentrations, everything is that you know there really was no secret out there.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we looked at all of the dermatology journals trying to find the miracle cure that kept on being promised by you know, you know, brands with very, very large marketing, you know, um efforts, and we found that there was just no secret.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: It was these these classic ingredients, vitamin C, of course, sunscreens and retinoids, vitamin A, that were really having the effects that um people were really hoping for, and that's what we were seeing in in all of the studies.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess the problem that we were trying to solve was how can we demystify this area?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: How can we actually, you know, tell the world about the ingredients that really work and make products that could actually harness the potential of these powerful ingredients so that you know it we make it exciting and actually aspirational, but also truly affected and effective and backed by science.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you know that was something that was quite elusive for a lot of brands for many years because it wasn't necessarily that sexy at the time, you know, the science and these you know more traditional ingredients.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, that's what we that's what we took on as our mission to try and demystify the aging and and help people, you know, liberate them from this this choice and and difficulty of finding something that really worked.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I love what you said.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think first of all, I just want to set the record uh straight for everyone listening.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Science is always sexy, okay?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just I think that science is I it's the best way you can, you know, kind of justify the the reason a product exists or the, you know what I mean?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like the reason I've never, for me it's like intuitive, but again, you know, we both have science backgrounds, so we think differently, I guess.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: But um, that's really interesting.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it, you know, for me, I'm very curious about this idea of like, you know, combining clinical grade, or I guess you would say, like, you know, from a chemistry perspective, let's talk from the chemistry perspective, because I don't understand where cosmetic chemistry aligns with like biomedical research.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, as with your background, like I would love for you to comment on that in terms of the formulations um when you were when you're formulating anything, or given the current formulations, how do you um integrate that with like the physiological effects you want for the skin?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I I just want like your process, like your brainstorming process when you go through uh creating a new formula or tweaking an existing formula, etc.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness, great question.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: And just for the record, I think science is very sexy.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Let the record be straight on.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: It was the world that we had to try and convince, but uh yeah.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I think I think that's a great question, and I think that that's a very important thing to do because it's all very, it's all very well, you know, seeing these you know, studies on ingredients that may be performed in certain laboratory conditions, and and you know, there can be a very different um you know impact when it's actually applied in real life to real people's skin.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the skin is designed to not let things absorb.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's literally what your skin is there for, to actually actually act as a barrier to the world and the environment.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: So to actually have something that can really interact with the skin and penetrate into the layers that where it can actually have an effect is a difficult thing to do, and that's something that you need to formulate around.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that's part of our holistic approach.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we look at, you know, firstly we look at the actual conditions um that the ingredients were applied in when we're looking at the studies, you know, what kinds of concentrations, the the formulations, the pH, um, because these are all very relevant to actually determine whether they're actually going to have an effect in real life.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: So we look at the conditions of the ingredients, then we make sure that our formula itself is not hindering the ingredients in any way.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're looking at the um how well the formulas are going to penetrate in the skin.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: We're looking at the stability of the formulation to make sure it's not degrading the active ingredients because you know, unless you've got a stable formula that you've really tested, not just to make sure it doesn't change colour, but analytically tested these ingredients in your formulation, by the time you actually use it, you know, from the from the moment it's been manufactured to the point that it actually gets onto your bathroom shelf and onto your skin, it could have degraded 50% or maybe more.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: So you're not actually getting the percentage that you need to have an effect.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we take this very holistic view on formulation science.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you know, we have a team of biochemists and physiologists that actually look at how our ingredients are interacting with the skin.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, when you're layering ingredients and different products as well, how they could be having an effect or you know, getting in each other's way.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I mean that that kind of holistic look, not just simply putting an ingredient in a bottle and then hoping that it's going to work, you know, and and you're selling it based on a concentration.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: There's many, many more steps that you need to take.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: And that's part of the things that we do to really um to prove and to promise truthfully that the product's going to have that effect.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I love that you said that about biochemists, because honestly, like it's that's that was my question, right?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like you have all these companies that are like, well, we made the new, you know, stable whatever, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, that's great from a chemistry perspective.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: But the stability of that, does that apply, you know, when you, you know, really put it on the skin and then the skin's experiencing it and all of that?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's where my curiosity really comes in with with uh formulation chemistry and then you know, integrating it with what really happens.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, but you answered my question, you know, if you've got biochemists and and people looking at the physiology, then that's that's really amazing.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a note that a lot of brands could take, you know, from the way you guys are doing it, because a lot of you know, companies, I'm not gonna lie, are very heavily focused on either it's either the medicine or the chemistry.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: You see what I'm saying?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no like, like I don't ever very often, you know, I'll hear like either side, but there's never this in between and this like middle ground that I'm like, you know, they're able to explain.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I I love that.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm really glad you guys are doing it right.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my next question really is actually it's I saw it on TikTok and I want you to clarify this because since we're talking about stability, especially with vitamin C, there was this viral trend going around about iodine being added into water with vitamin C.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Did you see that?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: I missed that one, thankfully.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: That gives me anxiety just hearing about that, to be honest.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh yeah.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh so wow, that's what's going around at the moment.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not not something that I would endorse.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: They were they were doing it, you know, just to give you um just a rundown of what it was.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: They were doing it to um basically prove if vitamin C was like really there or not.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, Well, if you put iodine in this and then you you splish it around and then the water turns clear, that means the vitamin C is actually there.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, I wonder what chemists think about this.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, to be honest, that there is some degree, you know, and it's not it's not it's not purely illogical because you know you can, you know, the amount that the vitamin C will um you know act as an antioxidant in that formula because when when when the uh iodine is um is reduced, um it it goes clear.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: So that you can and that's what the that's the effect that pure as pure vitamin C ascorbic acid will actually have.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: But but it's a very there's no that I mean that's a very, very rudimentary.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: That won't really give you any indication as to the concentration in your formula and how effective it is.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's uh yeah, we've done we used to do those studies actually as well when uh we uh were working on some ascorbic acid formulations.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I think that that's the I mean it's an interesting you know it's it's quite a fun test to do, but um, I don't think it's the best use of your expensive vitamin C serum, to be honest.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right, right, exactly.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, I love that.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for explaining though, because you know, you I see all these trends and I worry about people and I just I'm like, let me ask an expert.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I you know, I want to move on, I want to move on to some of the products that have been really, really great, um, especially for me, because I've obviously been trying the line and I absolutely love it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I really enjoy the way you're doing like eye, um, like the the C the vitamin C for the for the under-eye area and stuff.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: I like that approach, and I would love for you to talk about the C Tetra um eye product.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I because this has really, really been working for me, and I'm somebody who has dark circles.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to hear about the chemistry and the you know the whole formulation around this specific product.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's yes, very kind of you to say thank you.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, well, I mean that the our I mean our dedication to those those those core kind of technologies, the vitamin C, the sunscreen, and the vitamin A, you know, not only is that about you know creating the best products, it's also creating a a variety of different um product formats and and strengths and different applications so that you know you could apply um you could you could sort of access the the different um elements of that philosophy all over your face and also you know no matter what kind of concentrations and you know matter what your skin types are.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you know when we when we make a vitamin C product, we think, well, how can we um you know, yeah, how can we create an eye product, for example?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's all very well having one that's designed for the rest of the face, but we need vitamin C under the eyes as well.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we you know we took a um you know a dedicated approach to the eye offering and we looked at what the skin needed and the kind of concentration that the vitamin C.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we we lowered the concentration in the in the eye product relative to the rest of the face.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: We changed the texture so it um just was better, it wasn't overly overly uh heavy around the eyes because that can actually lead to more issues like some puffiness and extra sort of um uh you know issues that you don't actually want around the eyes.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we take a we take a very um again, a very holistic look and a very tailored approach to um to all the different applications for for products.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we we make sure that in each of those core categories, there's a there's a there's a variety of different options so that you can, you know, whatever you're looking for, you can access a vitamin C, a sunscreen, or a vitamin A.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, no, I absolutely love the product, and I think that you know it's definitely it makes sense what you're saying, but it's something that for me, I for specifically for eye creams, I've never nothing's ever worked for me.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, eye creams to me have always been this like myth or like this, you know, just that area of skincare that it doesn't make any sense, but this product has really been working, and that's why I was very curious because, you know, um, in terms of under-eyed circles, there are so many people out there that are talking about, well, why do you have under-eyed circles?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And there's this whole like I I don't know, this library of misinformation, but then you find a product and it immediately, you know what I mean?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's working for you.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it just makes you rethink um the exact like how this happens, how do dark circles form, you know?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I was very curious about this specific uh product because it's the first eye product that's actually like really, really worked for me.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: So um thank you for that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I actually um I I want to talk about actually, you know, I'm not gonna lie retinol, because retinol, I think is an area that I I certainly don't know enough about.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: I know um consumers don't know enough about.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for you to speak on the formulation of retinol products and how you determine, you know, what strengths to use and what strengths to put out there in terms of like a variety, say you have a line of retinol products and you want to, you know, kind of cater to everybody, like you said, you someone can find something for themselves, you know, if they go through the catalog of products.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you determine that?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like what strengths to work with, you know, um, what's the process of creating a retinol product?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a great question.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's um it's something that we um go to great lengths to get right, and it's um it's it's probably part of the part of Medicaid that's had most of our research and innovation is with the retinol products, the all of our different retinoids.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're we're the only brand that has the number of different forms of retinol, uh, from the classic you know, retinol to retinaldehyde and also to the retinoate.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we have all of these different forms, and then also to your point, we have you know the lots of different strengths because we really feel you know, this is just essential skincare.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we want to create a variety of strengths so that you can jump in no matter where you are on your skincare journey.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we always turn to, we initially always turn to you know the published literature out there, you know, what are the studies showing um in terms of clinically proven efficacy?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's our starting point.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Then we take that kind of peer-reviewed external studies and then bring it to our own lab, and then we do our own tests of a variety of different concentrations and start to start to build a you know a set of data that helps us map certain age groups, skin types, skin concerns to a particular strength.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then we build all of our education around that so that it's very clear where people should start, uh, you know, depending on you know where they are.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: And in most cases, um especially for our most popular retinol called crystal retinal, um, people should start on the um the crystal retinal three, which is 0.03%.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: And again, there was lots of trial and error you know across many studies of trying to get that percentage.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and then you work your way up the ladder.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we tend to always recommend people to start low and go slow.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: So start on a lower strength, and that's why we have lower strengths, which aren't as effective as the higher strengths, but it gives people a starting point, you know, especially if they're nervous, and rightly so.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's been a lot of you know um concerning information over the years about retinol, you know, drying your skin and causing irritation.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: And we really wanted just to remove that as a problem.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: So create these lower strengths, and we even have a very, very mild strength uh for people with rosacea or you know, a history of very sensitive skin.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then you just you just work your way up, you work your way up the ladder.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, you phase in the retinol into your skin, so you know you don't go to nightly use you know immediately, you work up to it over the course of a month, and then you know, once your skin is very comfortable with a particular strength, that gives you an indication to move up the ladder.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: We call it the vitamin A ladder, um, because you know, there's there's those next strengths that you can get to.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, that's that's that's the very, very common journey that people have when they get into um our retinol products.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is you know, let's run through it then, you know.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, say I have acne, I'm a teenager, I have acne, I don't want to get on accutane, I want to try retinol products.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, what would you recommend as strength?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like what strength?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: I would 100% go for the crystal retinal, which is based on retinaldehyde, um, very, very effective form of retinol, um, at the point zero thirty.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Very well proven.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it will start to have um effects straight away.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then most people, if you do have, you know, if you're very acne prone, you know, you move up to the 0.06% uh retinaldehyde.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I I must point out that obviously the percentages for the retinaldehyde, which is a very different form of retinol to classic retinol.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, forgive the terminology.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um if if someone was looking for a classic retinol, then I would start on a 0.3% retinol, but it's a 0.03% for the retinaldehyde because it's much more powerful form of vitamin A.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully that that all makes sense.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know it does.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious, I'm actually asking you why why does the aldehyde cause it to be more like potent?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening that's making it stronger?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's one step closer in the skin to uh becoming the active form of retinol, which is called retinoic acid, which is the prescription grade, prescription uh molecule.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and what's so amazing about the retinaldehyde is that it's almost it's if it's it's comparable to the efficacy and the strength of the prescription grade, the retinoic acid, but it just doesn't have anything like the irritation that you get from the prescription creams.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's much more like the everyday irritation of retinol, which is actually isn't that bad if you've got a nice formulation.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: So you're getting the effectiveness of prescription strength, but the irritation of your everyday cosmetic, which is pretty low.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, I actually see a lot of posts about people having very um strong reactions.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about with retinol products, and and you know, a lot of it is like peeling or sensitivity or you know, just and that really goes back to what you were saying about really titrating your own dose and figuring out what the lowest possible is that's gonna give you results and then working up.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now I I'm curious about um so that was like teenagers, right?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: So what about when you you you start to see the first signs of aging?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that usually happens, I think, for people around like mid-30s or so, you know.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are is there another product you recommend, or are we still stick with the point oh three?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: I was the same, you know, the vitamin A is just it's just uh you know, it's as close as a panacea as you're gonna get in terms of ingredients.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: It can just cover all bases of skin health and skin concerns, you know.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I would I would say for for most people, they would start on this very common entry point for Medicaid retinol, which is the crystal retinal three.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and but you know, if you're younger, then you may not need to move up a strength as as quick.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: But if you've got more deep, you know, you know, skin aging concerns, which are a little bit harder to address because they're more um because these sort of the the issues stem from sort of deeper layers of the skin.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um you might want to move up the ladder a bit more quickly up to the the crystal six and then maybe get up to the crystal retinal 10, you know, within a couple of use, you know, a few products that you've used and you're comfortable with.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's more it's more just how.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Quickly you move up the ladder, I feel, when you make the the comparisons between uh maybe age as one example or skin concerns.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's very interesting.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I actually I really want to know um because I know there's a lot of information out there about vitamin C, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of formulation chemistry, all of that stuff, but no one talks about you know vitamin A derivatives.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually made a post about this, Dan, and I'm not joking.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think people think I'm just a geek and I just post stuff because you know, I for me, I want to understand the science and the breakdown of what these molecules are.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I am very curious um what your opinion is about people who have like, you know, adverse reactions to vitamin A products.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, do you because I definitely believe that it depends on the formulation, right?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the quality of who's making these products.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, is that true from a chemistry perspective?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or how does it work in terms of figuring out what is a good over-the-counter retinol product or you know, retinaldehyde product versus not?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is, in your opinion, the difference?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's a very difficult thing for um your everyday skincare user to figure out.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really difficult thing.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And um we, you know, we we try our best to bring all these extra steps that we take in Medicaid to um, you know, as as to life, you know, as as much as as clear as possible so people can um at least understand that you know there are extra steps that can be taken.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're absolutely right.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: I I completely agree with you.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: There is a big difference um with um the that stems from the formulation itself.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's it's not just the same.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: When you've got two products on on the counter, you've got one, you know, they they both say the same form of vitamin A and the same concentration.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that that's they're not the same.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: They're not necessarily the same, and there's a very, very big difference from the formulation.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's and that's when, and that's sort of comes back to your early point about you know, the other considerations about how the products are interacting with the skin, how the base formulation is surrounding the molecule.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: One one step that we take in Medicaid is to have time release technology, which actually slows down the penetration into the skin.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, it doesn't sort of it doesn't um hinder it ultimately, because it can all get through, but it just slows down the penetration because irritation from from retinols isn't necessarily based on the the concentration itself, it's how much it if it it's whether or not the skin is overloaded at any one time.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because when the skin becomes overloaded, then it produces inflammation and the skin's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I you know, I I need a bit more time to handle this, and it sort of starts to reject the vitamin A that's coming in and starts to you know inflame.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you can resolve that problem by actually slowing down the penetration using, for example, encapsulation or polymer reservoirs, which is what we use in our liquid serums, to slowly allow the vitamin A to trickle down in the skin and give your skin a chance to get familiar and comfortable with it every night.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and yeah, and look, and it's it's very difficult for people to sort of tell just like by looking at you know packaging and maybe the you know the brand's website.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: But we really tried to bring these extra steps to the very front of Medicaid so people can appreciate you know what we're doing and and to start understanding the differences between one product and another.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's that's really interesting.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm you know, thank you so much for clarifying that because I think that you know, in the world that we live in, skincare is definitely taking over, and there's so many brands, and you know, everyone's got nerd got a retinal product, right?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's very difficult for me to figure out, you know, which company do you go with, which line do you go with?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I, you know, I really believe strongly, and this is just my opinion for everyone listening, that if you're gonna go with something that is more rooted in science, right?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Which is uh all the science Dan just described here, like I would go with a brand that's known for their science.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would not buy my retinol from a brand that's known for, I don't know, just you know, feeling good, like being all, you know, just natural skincare everywhere.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no real studies, there's no real, you know, explanation of the formulations.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's just something I personally would not do.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's to me, that's why I was really digging in there because, you know, we have a lot of ingredients in the skincare space.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: There are some that are, you know, like for example, mushroom extracts and stuff.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: There are some like that, but then there are actual, you know, ingredients that have very complex and sophisticated chemistry around them, you know, um, just and we have to understand that, right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: As consumers, because we can't just blindly be buying products that may or may not be working and then blame the companies.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's all about education.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um, my next big topic, Dan, for you is sunscreen because I know you're very um, you know, this is an area you're very interested in and also pigmentation, but I want to talk about sunscreens with you because you know, everyone says right now, what I keep hearing, and I've a lot of the guests I've invited on, they're saying anything above SPF 30 is a waste of your time.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to know from the ground up, you know, what you think about sunscreens in terms of what's a good like what's a good approach to formulating a sunscreen, what are the things your sunscreen should have in them, and you know, all that all that stuff.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you can kind of give us a mini lesson on that.
• 27:23
  unknown: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I obviously it's sunscreens are absolutely essential.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: I guess that's always the first thing to say.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's all very well investing in your routine with um, you know, you know, looking into the you know your vit your vitamin A's and and all the new ingredients that are out there.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um but without sunscreen, you're you're you know, you're just not really gonna get the benefits of it and because your skin is just gonna be um having more damage than actually you're solving from effective skincare.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, that's I guess the first thing to say.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um thankfully many people are aware of that now, so that's good.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um and in terms of formulation, I guess it's again, it's it's for me, it's about you know, the best sunscreen is the one that you actually want to use.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we spend a huge amount of time on our textures to make sure that they are lightweight, that they're actually uh not leaving the skin with a greasy finish, that they work well under makeup.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like you know, designing sunscreens for real life, you know, it's not about just going to the beach anymore and having a white cast, it's about products that are sunscreen, sunscreens are sun, are skincare.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same thing, you know, and we need to make products that really can deliver that.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of your morning routine.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's not this uh well, and and ideally reapply, you know, reapplying during the day as well when you go out in the sun.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's not something you just do on holiday, it's not something you do just when when the sun's out.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, but it's all very well brands saying that, but you know, you need brands need to make products that actually can deliver that promise and and you know, for people you know who actually want to use them.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, a lot of so much of it is about textures.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, yeah, an SPF 30 I would say is the minimum.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think you know that's I think the minimum for me just because um a lot of the studies that you see, you know, you know, that look at sort of the effects of sun damage and how well sunscreens can actually slow down premature skin aging from the sun, it's usually based on a 30.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, in order, you know, so much of our wisdom around sun care and the and the and the and the benefits of sun care is based on these studies.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, you should always follow the studies, you know.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's our approach in the lab, as well as what I always tell to other people.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of yeah, 30 and above is is pretty much where you want to be.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then if you get like find a good texture, and you know, there's other considerations about the UV filters that you use.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I know that um out in the US you guys are a lot more restricted in terms of the UV filters that you can use in the market, which is a shame.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: And hopefully the FDA will speed up a little bit and get around to uh approving the EU approved filters, European filters.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um but but there's I think there's a lot of confusing information around you know chemical versus mineral.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think that the the differences between the two are a lot uh a lot fewer than a lot of people think.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they both work in very similar ways, they both work to absorb sunlight.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a case that one is safe and the other is not safe.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe the the chemical filters can can be maybe a bit more irritating in some people, but it's it's it's you know, it's I wouldn't I wouldn't choose a mineral sunscreen if you don't if your skin doesn't get on with it, if it leaves, you know, just because you think mineral is safe or better, I'd say pick, find a sunscreen.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think you can rely on brands, and I think there's a lot of clean washing out there.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um that where there's brands like you know, marketing sunscreens based on them, based on sort of toxic comparisons and that kind of thing.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: I would just say put your faith in brands.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: There is regulation out there to make sure the sunscreens are very safe, especially in America where you actually you know regulate them as OTCs.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the sunscreens are safe.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Find a product that has a good texture and you actually want to use every day.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, just you know, and also to your point earlier point, you know, look at the brand.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, have they gone to the extra steps to make a formulation that's that's you know really compatible with the skin?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: It isn't gonna you know cause you you know congestion and other issues, and you know, can it's going to those extra steps for stability and those kind of things as well.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and you know, that's really interesting that you said that about um the mineral sunscreens, because I feel like for me, I don't believe in chemical sunscreens, Dan.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I believe in the minerals because they work for me.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And whenever I've used a chemical sunscreen, it's always left behind, or like I just felt like my skin was not being protected enough, if that makes any sense.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I could feel the like I I don't even think this makes any sense, but I could feel as if you know it was just not as um, I don't know, just it just wasn't working for my skin as much.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: So when you talk about mineral sunscreens, like what are like what what is the difference?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, I I know that obviously you have like you know, um, zinc and stuff involved, and you know, and then the chemical, I have no idea about chemical sunscreen formulations.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So can you tell us a little bit about that, like mineral versus chemical sunscreens and how to choose what's best?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think and I totally understand like how um you know your experience there because I think that you know there is there is a certain feeling that you get from wearing mineral filters because they they the the zinc oxide, so the two the two mineral filters that you're getting sunscreens are a zinc oxide and titanium dioxide.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um they are dispersed, they are they're sort of they're physical particles that are dispersed in in your formulation.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: So they're actually still remain as sort of tiny solids within within the formulation, and that's why they can leave a white cast because they're not actually fully dissolved in the formulation, they're just dispersed.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: And um and yeah, and they can leave a slightly slightly heavier feel on the skin, and not always, but they can have a little bit more of that film perhaps, and that may be the feeling that you're getting, and I think to some extent that it may be true to say that um you know when you're dealing with um chemical filters, otherwise known as organic um filters, um, the the formulations tend to be a little bit different.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: They may be bit be they might be a little bit easier to spread.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: And what might be happening is I think um you know you're because those formulations are easy to spread, you're actually using less of the formula um than you are with with the mineral.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: So actually you're getting less dosage in a way to think about it, um, because of the differences in textures, uh, and also because the you know the organic filters, if you actually used you know the full quarter of a teaspoon for your face, it might leave your skin feeling quite greasy.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's why people don't put the full amount on, and then you might get sunburned like it has been in your experience.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you know, that's not to say that maybe in your experience there was a difference in quality in what you were using, um, but I think that you know the differences are much fewer than I think um maybe a lot of it people's experiences have indicated.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean that's definitely that helps a lot, actually.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for clarifying the especially about the white cast, because I've never, you know, I've really have always believed if you go with a line, once again, if you go with a skincare line that is a sophisticated line in terms of science, I've never dealt with white cast.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: As a woman of color, you know, I've never had that issue because I've always gone with more science-heavy brands, right?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: For my my skin, my sunscreen choices.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um that makes a lot of sense, what you said in terms of the dispersion of the molecules and stuff.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something that we really need to kind of get out there.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna try to make a post about that because um I don't think people know that at all, consumers.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I all I ever hear is I don't use mineral sunscreen because I have a white cast.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work with my makeup, it doesn't sit right.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, it's been the opposite experience.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I I find that to be very interesting, um, what you said.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, um, yeah, just to kind of uh wrap it up, you know, Dan, I want to ask you about Medicaid and uh what's coming up next.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what's the goal um, you know, for the new year for the company, for yourself?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, anything you can share with us if there's any new launches or anything?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm sworn to secrecy in some ways, but I'm I'm happy to share that um I guess that you know one of the things for us really is that you know, we've we've just started in America, so we're looking forward to doing much more um over on your side of the pond, as it were.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, one of one of the big things that we're gonna be doing for America is actually tied into uh one of our biggest um sort of new moves for this year, which is actually moving our uh main um manufacturing and research facility to a brand new innovation center um in in the UK where we're quadrupling uh the size of our facility and bringing on board a lot more um innovation capabilities as well as manufacturing.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: And one of those manufacturing uh capabilities will be to produce um sunscreens for the US.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna actually be able to have uh a full range of US compliant sunscreens, which I'm very excited to uh I guess announce uh on this podcast to some extent.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's gonna be a huge, huge focus for us.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so yeah, much more in America, much more innovation coming coming your way.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're gonna stay true to our principles very much, innovation within vitamin C sunscreen and vitamin A overall, but also creating products that you know are the latest things that people are looking for.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we launched our acid toner um a few months ago called Press and Glow in in the US, and that's gone down very, very well.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we're you know, we're about lifestyle products as much as our kind of hardcore science products.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that you know, like good science makes good lifestyle, right?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so I I love your approach.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I love the brand and I love every product that I've tried.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's definitely, you know, I my philosophy at this point with skincare is you either know that it works or it doesn't.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes the brands that are, you know, like Medicaid, you guys are focused on the science, you're focused on the innovation, you're focused on what could you know what is going to work based on facts, that is what works.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, let's let's be real here.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a lot of brands out there, and I'm not throwing shade at any of them.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think anything done with a good conscience and with good, you know, uh like a good vibe, that's a great thing.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to real science and the nitty-gritty chemistry of skin health and the products around it, you absolutely cannot compromise when it comes to certain products, like we talked about.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I urge everyone listening, you know, when it comes to your retinal products, your sunscreen, sunscreen products, acids, or any actives that you're using, please, you know, check out brands like Medicaid and, you know, because these are these are the brands that are putting in the money and the dollars to the do the research and to come up with real answers.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're not just, you know, making up marketing words and just spreading them around like, you know, like it's science or a new paper that just got published in nature, you know.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I I love it and I love the brand, Dan.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for the honor of hosting you and for being so awesome with explaining everything.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you so much.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, thank you for your great questions.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: It was really nice to to dig into you know some of our um you know parts of Medicaid that we don't get to talk about that often.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, thank you for for having me.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: No problem.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone listening, please leave us your comments, questions, anything that you want to share.
• 38:42
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• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um thank you again, and I will be back next time.
• 38:53
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• 40:00
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