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“Taliban sleepovers and midnight cat videos.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett. I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Later in the pod, my interview with our friend Adi Barkin,
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: who just launched a video series on health care featuring
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: interviews with Democratic presidential candidates and whose new book, Eyes
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: to the Wind, comes out Tuesday. But first, we've got
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: a lot of news to cover from all of Trump's
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: latest corruption to his canceled Taliban get-together to new 2020
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: polling that shows the top three Democratic candidates pulling away
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: from the pack ahead of this week's debate. Also, we
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: have a new Crooked Minis for the month of September,
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: and it's called State of Conspiracy. hosted by Professor Catherine Olmsted,
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: an expert in conspiracy theories. This series will look at
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: the rising popularity of political and anti-government conspiracies and how
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: the Trump administration has contributed to their rise.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Check it out.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: Finally, our schedule this week is a little different with
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: the big debate on Thursday night. So our regular Thursday
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: pod will move to Friday for a post-debate super pod
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: with me and Tommy and Dan. On Wednesday, we'll be
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: doing a Q & A live stream on our YouTube channel,
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: And on Thursday night, we'll be doing another live group thread,
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: all of us, that you can catch on our YouTube channel.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: Make sure you're subscribed there at YouTube.com slash Cricket Media.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: You can get the live stream. You can get the
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: group thread, all kinds of good stuff there. I didn't
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: agree to do any of this. Tommy did not agree
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: to any of this. We're still in negotiations with Tommy.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: Calling off the meeting at Camp David.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: And, Lovett, you're joining us today from New York. You're
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: not even here.
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: No, I'm in New York City.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: What's happening there? Why are you there? You have a
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: show or something?
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: We have Radio City on Friday night. There are a
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: precious few tickets left at this point. We have Stacey Abrams,
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: Desus and Miro, a bunch of really great guests. Alyssa
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: Master Monaco, Wyatt Cenac, Dulce Sloan.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Jam-packed.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Jam-packed.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Can't wait. Cool.
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot of important news we're going to
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: get to, but before we do, we need to point
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: out that the president of the United States has now
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: spent more than a full week complaining that the media
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: correctly reported that he spread false information when he said
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: that the state of Alabama might be hit, quote, much
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: harder than anticipated by Hurricane Dorian. In response, Trump attacked
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: multiple media outlets and journalists by name, including a bizarre
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: video he posted on Twitter just after midnight on Saturday
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: that involved the weather map he doctored with a Sharpie,
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: a cat, a laser pointer, and the CNN logo. So,
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: Dan and I almost forgot to mention this stupid story
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: on Thursday's pod, but when I saw the Washington Post
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: story about how the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or NOAA,
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: which is the parent agency of the National Weather Service,
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: warned their staff, put out a statement, warned their staff
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: not to contradict the president's false information and publicly disavowed
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: the completely accurate information released by their own Birmingham office,
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: I started thinking that maybe this story does matter.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Tommy, what do you think?
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: I think it matters when a government agency is browbeaten
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: by the president of the United States and his political
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: hacks not to put out information about a potential natural
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: disaster that may or may not impact their life and
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: safety and health.
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: That's kind of the nightmare scenario where George Orwell, 1984,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: we have a president of the United States whose ego
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: is so fragile that he can't be corrected when he tweets.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: The wrong thing.
• 3:45
  Speaker 5: It's insane.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: And like, It's kind of funny that this is all
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: coming on the heels of his rage about the whole
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: lost summer narrative. I mean, he just pissed away another
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: week talking about whether or not a storm would hit Alabama.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: He just can't let it go.
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Lovett, what do you think? Yeah.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think with moments like this, you're reminded
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: that with Trump, you're either honest or you're implicated. You know,
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: when the president says something false, demonstrably, obviously false, and
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: then you are asked, did the president say something false?
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: Or if you're called by worried citizens in Alabama about
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: whether the president said something false, you have to decide
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: what's more important, telling the truth or staying out of
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: the fray. There's no way to choose between the two.
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: You're either complicit or you're honest. And, you know, we've
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: seen countless politicians choose to not pick that fight because
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: it's easier. And now we're seeing NOAA do the same. And,
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: you know, it's this constant threat. It's this constant reality
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: with Trump that things are both silly and very dangerous,
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: you know, and we struggle because both of those things
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: can be true. It's he can kind of, it's like
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: authoritarian improv, you know, he kind of accidentally stirs up
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: these incredibly dangerous forces, this idea of anything I say
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: is true. And if you go against me. You're not
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: telling the truth. You're part of the problem. You're the enemy.
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: And the scariest thing we have learned over the last
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: few years is how easy it was for someone who
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: is disorganized and undisciplined and ultimately venal and craven and
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: not out for any particular ideological purpose can cow so
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: many people by sheer force of his personality, by sheer
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: force of his willingness to pick every single fight, to
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: not let any pitch go by.
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, people reported, well, the Washington Post reported that,
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: you know, Trump was the one who doctored the map himself.
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: Big surprise. He was the one who held the Sharpie. And,
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: you know, a lot of people have noted that that's illegal,
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: that it's illegal to falsify.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: A weather map.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: And the reason it's illegal, the reason there's that law
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: in the first place is because it can put people's
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: lives at risk, right?
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: Like, we.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: this actually matters to people. Like, we have to be
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: able to trust the information that our government provides, especially
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: in times of crisis, especially in the midst of a
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: natural disaster. And now we can't trust that information because
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: we are at the whims of a narcissistic sociopath who
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: not only lies to us himself, but now tries to
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: pressure and force and bend the rest of the government
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: to his will. I mean, like, The forecasters in the
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: Birmingham office, they said, there's just a story out today,
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: because the head of the National Weather Service said that
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: the Birmingham forecasters who basically put out a tweet that said,
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: Trump is wrong, were absolutely correct in doing so. And
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: the reason that they put out a tweet, they actually
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: didn't mention Trump in the tweet, they just said, oh,
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: by the way, there's no forecast that's going to hit
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: Alabama at all. Because all these worried people in Alabama
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: are calling up the weather service there, and they're all worried.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: And Tommy, you and I were talking about this, but like,
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: there's like local weather forecasters in Birmingham quoted as being like,
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: I had to stand up here and say that this
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: was wrong. I mean, this is to your point, love it.
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: Like you're making like local weathermen in Birmingham choose sides.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: He's literally asking us to concede that the sky is
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: not blue and that it is in fact filled with
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: storm clouds and hurricane winds.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: It's insane.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, Well, there's also the fact that he canceled
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: his visit to Europe to commemorate World War II because
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: he had to stay behind to monitor the storm.
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: And what we know he did instead was play golf.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: So maybe he tweeted factually inaccurate information or at least
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: dated information that suggested Alabama might get hit with high
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: winds because he just forgot the updated information he learned.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Or maybe it was because he was dicking around on
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: the golf course and he just tweets with reckless abandon
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: and put out something that was wrong. Either way, like
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: the fact that he is now engaged the media and
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Washington and the weather service in a six day debate
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: over this issue is infuriating. And there's there's an element
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: of this that is it's so small and it's so
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: petty that it's like you can't believe we're still talking
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: about it. But there is a far more fundamental principle
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: at stake here, which is that we can't trust literally
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: anything that comes out of his mouth. And God forbid
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: there is a terrorist attack or something truly, truly awful
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: that happens here. No one will believe what he says.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: And meanwhile, he's utterly distracted from the actual effort to
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: help people who were just hammered by this storm in
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: the Bahamas and the things coming up the eastern seaboard.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: So it's just so frustrating.
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: It's funny. He stayed home from Europe to work on
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: the hurricane, which he didn't do because he has no
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: work ethic. He has no discipline, no attention span. But
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: if you introduce a personal grievance, like a little slight
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: or an insult, he.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Is- That gets him going. That gets him going.
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: He is dedicated. He is a dog who latches onto this.
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: He runs this. I mean, he is the- For a
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: guy that cares about nothing, he is the Mother Teresa
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: of nursing- his ego. He is bedside 24 hours a day.
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: He's got cold compresses. He's bringing soup. He is so
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: attentive to his own psychological needs, but has no aptitude
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: for anything else.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: And his team treats it all like a joke, right?
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: They're now selling Sharpies from the campaign because they think
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: it's funny that our president's a pathological liar. This all
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: flows from The people who were on the 2016 campaign
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: say the day of the Access Hollywood video was this
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: big inflection point. You were either with Trump and the
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: lies and all the awful things he did or you weren't.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: And it's clear that like they just pledge absolute fealty
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: to him. And that's all that matters.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: And again, the danger is here. It's not just that like,
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: you know, I saw Tom Perez over the weekend was telling,
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: you know, DNC delegates and people like that, like they
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: don't the Democrats don't want to just focus on Trump's opposition.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: they want to focus on how he's done a bad
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: job and how his awfulness has actually affected people and
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: i think that's smart and in this instance we can
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: all laugh about how it's fucking like day eight and
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: we're still talking about sharpie gate but like the president's
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: undiagnosed personality disorder here like has a real impact like
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: there was a story out this morning on cnn that
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: the United States extracted one of its top spies from
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: Russia in 2017 because they were worried that Trump would
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: expose the identity to Putin.
• 10:28
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: Like he is putting all kinds of people in danger
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: every time he pulls one of these. He has one
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: of these episodes. He lies like this. He tries to
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: cover up. He goes down the road of being a
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: narcissistic sociopath. Like it is a danger to the country.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: It is not just him being a goofy asshole that
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: we should all laugh at.
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: I think it's time for a conservative weather channel. I
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: just think I'm sick of.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: The liberal weather. Just as I'm working on this outline
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: last night, we're all researching this for today. He goes
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: on a tear late last night East Coast time because
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: he watched MSNBC and saw like John Legend talking about
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: criminal justice reform, and John Legend didn't sufficiently praise Donald Trump,
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: so not only did he attack John Legend, he attacked
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: Chrissy Teigen, calling her foul-mouthed. She didn't even have anything
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: to do with the special. She wasn't involved. He just
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: basically had a series of tweets where he was attacking
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: black celebrities and journalists for not praising him enough for
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: criminal justice reform.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, Lovey, you joke about a conservative weather channel,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: but there was a clip going around the internet from OANN,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: which is the news organization that's to the right of
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Fox News that's even worse. And there was a clip
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: where someone was referring to NOAA as a notorious liberal agency,
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: I suppose, because they monitor the fact that the climate
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: is changing. So, yeah, that's that's absolutely where we're going.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: That is terrifying.
• 11:51
  Speaker 6: All right.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: So let's let's talk about a brand new scandal from
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: the Trump administration that offers yet another example of the
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: president using his public office as a way to get richer.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: All at the expense of us, people who pay taxes
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: on Friday.
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: Politico broke the story that the House Government Oversight and
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: Reform Committee has launched an investigation into whether the Department
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: of Defense is helping Trump's struggling Scottish golf resort stay
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: afloat by having crews stay there when Air Force planes
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: refuel at a nearby airport, even though it's more expensive.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: On Sunday night, the Air Force announced it will be
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: conducting an internal investigation into the matter after reporters uncovered
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: additional instances of military personnel staying at Trump properties. Politico
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: reports that at least one service member was frustrated at
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: that the food and drink at the Trump resort was
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: over his government allowance. And this morning, of course, Trump
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: tweeted that none of this has anything to do with
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: him and that the Air Force merely has good taste. Tommy,
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: how unusual is what the Air Force did here and
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: how big of a deal should this be?
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: It's so hard to tell. It's early in the investigation.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: I'll never pretend to understand things like the way the
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: military procures fuel or how they have people's spend time
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: different places. It does seem pretty weird that they spent
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: $ 11 million, the military, at Prestwick Airport, which is the
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: closest airport to Trump Turnberry. I would assume that there
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: are cheaper places to buy fuel for these planes based
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: on our military's ability to procure billions of dollars of
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: it at a time, but who knows? There's also reports
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: that the military members are getting discounted rates and free
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: golf at the club. So I'm sure they have plenty
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: of time to do. But the club lost $ 4. 5 million
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: in 2017, but revenue went up $ 3 million in 2018. So,
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: you know, it seems like things are on the up
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and up. But, like, the key point, I think, is
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: this is a great example of the fact that Trump
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: is making millions of dollars every single week steering visitors
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: to his D.C. hotel or to rent out spaces for events.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, Trump apparently, according to the New York Times,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: they tracked this, he's visited a Trump property on 293
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: days of his presidency. So basically a third of his
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: presidency is he has spent time at one of his resorts.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: And when he goes and spends time in Mar-a-Lago or Bedford,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: that means the Secret Service is renting dozens of rooms
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: and golf carts and just pouring money into his pocket.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: There's all kinds of reporting about the Saudis spending half
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: a million dollars to rent out half of the hotel
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: in D.C. or various grifters going in there. So it's
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: a constant, ongoing grift.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: And there are.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Members of Congress who have this little process called impeachment
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: that they could use to really dig deep. And they'd
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: just been sitting on their hands for weeks and weeks
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: and weeks. And, you know, there was a great interview
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: with David Fahrenthold, who's a reporter at The Washington Post.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: He was on Fresh Air and it aired over the weekend.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: And he talked about, you know, all the things he's
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: been doing to uncover this grift. And it's just like,
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: thank God for people like that, because Congress isn't doing
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: shit to figure this out.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Love it. What do you think of the story?
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, I think it's really good.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Great story for the administration. Put that one up on
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: the refrigerator. I think it's great.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Two thoughts. Love it, loves golfing, loves Scotland.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Two thoughts.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: One, Trump has never behaved like he has cash. He
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: is constantly behaving like he's about to run out of money.
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: That was true when he was, even back in 2016,
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: when he was debating whether to loan rather than give
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: his campaign, I think it was $ 10 million at the time,
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: you never get the sense that this is a man
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: sitting on a lot of reserves. So it seems as
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: though every time he makes his decision to go golfing,
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: it is because they view the presidency as a way
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: to make money. And I've said this before, but I
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: still think it's true. We will know that Donald Trump
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: believes he is no longer going to be president soon
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: when he starts admitting to the fact that he made
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: money on the deal, that he will at some point
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: start to say, what, I was president for four years,
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: never supposed to happen, and look how much money I
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: made on this. Yeah.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: So that is coming. That is coming.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: And I think a New York Times story about the
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: Trump hotel that ran over the weekend. They said that
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: in private, Trump pumps up his properties to people a
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: lot more than he does in public.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Surprise, surprise.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: And raises it all the time and has concerns about it.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, but like, OK, think about in 2016 what
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: we were talking about, both in the primary and the
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: general election. Hillary Clinton, after she left public office. giving
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: speeches and like not releasing the transcript of the speeches,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: even though she was giving speeches on wall street and
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: making money as a private citizen, citizen outside of politics.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: And we still all talked about the optics and there
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: are legitimate concerns around that.
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: But Donald Trump is in office and the way he's
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: making money while in office, while in public office is
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: not just a bunch of private citizens giving him money.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: It's the United States government. It's our tax dollars are
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: making him richer. Like if Democrats can't make a fucking
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: issue out of this. Like, let's go home.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: And here's an avenue, John. The Trump International Hotel, they
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: leased the old post office building in Washington, and that's
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: the Trump Hotel. The House Transportation Infrastructure Committee has oversight
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: over that property. So Peter DeFazio, a congressman out of Oregon,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: could request a whole bunch of documents. For some reason,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: he has not. People seem to think it's because he
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: thinks there might be some big infrastructure deal that gets
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: cut with Trump down the road. What are we doing?
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Get the documents.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Infrastructure week's right around the corner as soon as he
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: starts talking about the fucking weather.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Infrastructure week's a national joke.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Get the documents, DeFazio.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Well, so the good news.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Get the documents, DeFazio. You son of a bitch.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: You get those fucking documents.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he's a great congressman. What are we doing?
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, the good news on the House Democratic front
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: is the New York Times reported over the weekend that
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: the House Democrats are widening their impeachment inquiry to include
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: accusations of corruption against Trump.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Just in the nick of time.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: And they'll be voting on formalized procedures to guide the
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: impeachment inquiry this week, which is good. You know, Congressman
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Jamie Raskin said the focus needs to be on corruption, quote,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: The central sin, the original sin of the Trump administration
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: is the decision to convert the presidency into a money-making
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: operation for the president and his business and his family.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, that is the message. Listen to Jamie Raskin. That's great.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Lean into that.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think, although, so I'm reading this story,
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: as I'm sure you guys did, about how, like, House
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Democrats are widening the inquiry to include corruption. I was like, yes,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: this is what we've been talking about.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Great, wonderful.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: And then the last paragraph of the story says this.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: With the Republican-controlled Senate highly likely to acquit Mr. Trump,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: even if the House's case were put to trial, some
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: Democrats have begun raising another possibility, that the Judiciary Committee
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: could draft articles of impeachment, vote them out of the panel,
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: but never bring them to the floor of the House,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: offering the public an election year indictment of sorts without
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: ever bringing the president to trial.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I think it's great. I think it's a really cool strategy.
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: I would say one other thing that I would suggest
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: is actually print it really, really small. so that um
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: like you need like a magnifying glass to see it
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: or maybe you could like release it as an audiobook
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: but only at a whisper just at a whisper.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: Like do not bother please do not bother if that's
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: the path you're going to go down like way to
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: way to get all of the political risk for impeachment
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: because everyone will say the democrats impeached donald trump but
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: none of the upside which is months of hearings where
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: you tell the american public why he's a fucking criminal Yeah.
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: You know, it's funny.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: People say this all the time. People say this all
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: the time, right?
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: They say, imagine what Republicans would do if Obama did
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: something like this. Imagine, we're going to talk about it
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: when we talk about Trump inviting the Taliban for a
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: jamboree at Camp David.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: But I.
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: Think it's worth like stopping for a second and thinking like,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: what does it mean when people say that? Imagine what
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: Republicans can do. And sometimes it means Imagine if Democrats
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: use the same kind of reckless, intellectually dishonest, scorched earth
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: politics of Republicans. And I don't think that's a good idea.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: But sometimes it just means, imagine if Democrats fought as
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: hard for what they believe in as we often see
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: Republicans fighting, as we often see how hard Republicans fight
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: for what they believe in. And to me, this is
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: an example of that. There's just this, you just feel
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: this lack of fire in the belly, which is what
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: I think so many Democrats have been have been sort
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: of hungering for. And that's why they knocked on doors
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: in 2018. And then you, you see an argument like
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: that and it's like, it's really dispiriting.
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: And this, and look, this is the corruption part of this, right?
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: Like I get how tough it is to like, you know,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: walk people through the whole Mueller report and why Trump
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: is a criminal, what obstruction of justice means, why it
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: matters to your life, all this kind of stuff.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: I get all that.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: This corruption angle, like, Put up a big fucking calculator
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: on a website and say, like, how much is Donald
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Trump costing you? How many of your tax dollars did
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: he spend on this? Add up all the money he's
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: made in the Trump organizations. Like, this is not a
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: hard thing to do, right? Like, journalists, good media outlets
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: are doing this all over the place. They have all
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: kinds of charts about this. They're adding this up, like, fucking...
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: House Democrats do something. Be creative about this.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: We've learned so much about Donald Trump and his finances
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: despite all efforts he's made to prevent that kind of
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: disclosure over the last couple of years. And if you
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: think back to, say, the Benghazi hearings, because Republicans were
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: relentlessly focused on a non-scandal and doing everything they can
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: to get documents and subpoena witnesses, they figured out that
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Hillary had this private email address. And if not for
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: that dogged... unfair, unethical at times, effort, they never would
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: have had their number one campaign issue. So why don't
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: we get caught trying? Maybe I'm back to being opposed
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: to impeachment. We obviously don't have our shit together to
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: do literally anything. Anything.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: This was always my opposition to impeachment, which was at
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: like 5%, was always rooted in that. But I do
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: want it, and I want to see it happen, but
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: you can't fuck it up. If you fuck it up,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: it's going to be worse than if you never did
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: it in the first place.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: About the biggest news of the weekend, which was the
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: canceled Taliban slumber party at Camp David. The president announced
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: via Twitter, in between cat videos, that he was calling
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: off peace negotiations with the Taliban, whose leaders he had
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: secretly invited to Camp David, along with the president of Afghanistan,
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: the same week as 9-11. The New York Times reported
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: that the cancellation came after a long-running dispute within the
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: administration about negotiating with the Taliban to end the two-decade
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: war in Afghanistan. and disagreement over the deal that was
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: emerging from those negotiations. Tommy, I want to get your
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: reaction to this story, but first, can you give us
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: a primer on what we know about these negotiations, what
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: the goals have been, and what kind of issues need
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: to be resolved?
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: Sure.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: So we currently have about 14,000 troops in Afghanistan. Remember
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: that Trump actually had promised in the campaign to end
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: the war in Afghanistan, but actually sent more guys there,
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: so that's important context, I think. It sounds like there
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: was a deal in principle that had been made between
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Zalmay Khalilzad and the Taliban, negotiated over the course of
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: maybe 10 months or longer, that agreed to pull out 5,400 U.S.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: troops and close five bases over the course of, say,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: five months after the deal was agreed to. The goal
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: then was to get the rest of our guys out
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: over the course of a year, maybe a year and
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: a half. But, you know, it's notable that this whole
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: timeline is built around Trump's reelect. The deal was basically
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: we pull out troops. The Taliban cuts ties with al Qaeda.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: You help us deal with ISIS and maybe long, long,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: long term. It leads some power sharing agreement with the
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Taliban over the future of Afghanistan. It's important to note
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: that there was no requirement for the Taliban to stop
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: attacking Afghan civilians or the government or their troops during
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: that period. In the deal.
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: In any of the deals.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: None of this. So it's weird for the Trump to
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: act like that's what blew up the talks. Because that
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: latter question, that latter issue of negotiating with the Afghans
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: themselves is the hard part. It's very easy for the U.S.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: to make a deal with the Taliban. It's hard for
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: the Afghan government because the Taliban, they don't recognize that
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: they exist. They won't engage them. So that's part of
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: why this Camp David business is so screwed up. Trump
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: is essentially forcing Ashraf Ghani, the president of Afghanistan, to
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: show up at this made-for-TV spectacle at Camp David so
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: that Trump can triumphantly pretend that he just glued this
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: peace deal together. Meanwhile, Ghani has an election coming up
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: on the 28th of this month, and the Taliban is
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: blowing up the Capitol, killing civilians, and Ghani's getting briefed
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: on this deal. He's not at all happy with it,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: but his choice is skip this event and be called
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: anti-peace and risk 400 Trump tweets at you or don't go. So,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: you know, here we are. Like, it doesn't make any
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: sense to me that Trump actually believes that this suicide
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: attack is what led him to call off negotiations. Everyone
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: knows that the Taliban, they increase their level of attacks
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: while they're negotiating to create leverage. By the way, so
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: do we. Pompeo was on the Sunday shows bragging that
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: we'd killed a thousand Taliban in 10 days. So like, unfortunately,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: that's the way the war is. But I'll pause there.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: But like, none of this speaks to the need to
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: have a conversation at Camp David.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: Well, so yeah, I was going to say, like, I
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: can only imagine how difficult these issues are to negotiate
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: with the Taliban, the Afghan government, the U.S.
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: Government.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: We've been probably doing it, trying to do it for
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: years now, right? But it does seem like the deal emerging,
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: which was we pull all of our troops out and
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: we get a sort of vague promise from the Taliban
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: not to, you know, allow al-Qaeda to attack us, right?
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: It doesn't seem like the best, like, I don't know,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: was that an okay deal if they were able to
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: strike that deal? Because it seems like the killing in
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: Afghanistan continues. I mean, it depends on who you are, right?
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: If you're the US government and your concern is an
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: ISIS or al-Qaeda safe haven in Afghanistan, maybe that's the
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: best you're going to get. If you're an Afghan citizen
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: who doesn't want to live under Taliban rule in some
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: parts of the country, it's a horrible deal. But for Trump,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: he wants the press he got from the Singapore summit.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: And Uh, that diplomacy is a total disaster, by the way,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: with North Korea, we should talk about some other time,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: but like, I think we all should be happy that
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: he likes the press. He got out of a diplomatic,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: you know, events more than like, say blowing up, uh, Syria, but, uh,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: you know, like this was, this made no sense. I mean, the,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: the Taliban, as of, I think a couple of weeks ago,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: put out a video saying they still supported the nine
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: 11 attacks. Um, you know, like there's no need for
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: them to come and like, be at this amazing peace,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: the crown jewel of where the president actually ends up living.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: And by the way, we can negotiate with the Taliban
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: in a million places. We've been negotiating with them in
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Qatar with some of the individuals who were swapped as
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: part of the Bo Bergdahl prisoner swap. Remember when McCain
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: and Graham told us that was the worst thing that's
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: going to ever happen. So I support peace talks. The
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Afghanistan war has gone on longer than World War I,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: World War II, and the Korean War But having these
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: guys come to Camp David for a made-for-TV event for Trump,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: for his re-elect, is craven bullshit.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: Lovett, what did you think of the wisdom of the
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: stagecraft of having a Camp David meeting with the Taliban
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: the week of 9-11?
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: I thought it was politically risky at best, John.
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: So two quick points about this, because, you know, Tommy,
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: he's got it covered. One, It's a reminder of how
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: often Trump just says something. This was a case where
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: we learned something via Trump tweet that was fascinating and
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: important and new and concerning and didn't make sense. And
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: then you have to spend the next week trying to
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: figure out what the actual truth is because everything he
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: says is fabricated in some way or self-aggrandizing in some
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: way or just flat out wrong. That's the first thing.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: And the second thing is, this is what's happened with
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: North Korea. This was what he's seeking to do with
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: the Taliban. He doesn't care about exposing the presidency or
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: lowering the presidency to meeting with someone like Kim Jong-un
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: without having done the kind of preliminary work or by
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: inviting the Taliban to Camp David because he doesn't value
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: these institutions. He has no respect for them. He doesn't
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: care about them. He doesn't view the presidency as anything
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: other than a kind of toy for him to play with. So,
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: of course, he's going to just want to grab onto
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: something and bring people to the United States, even though
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: that sends a terrible message, even though that elevates people,
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: even though that It's something you have to– that there
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: should be diplomatic work and other work that happens long
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: before anything like that takes place because he just doesn't
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: care about these institutions. It doesn't occur to him to
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: value or protect him. It doesn't occur to him to
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: value or protect anything other than his own personal stake.
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: I mean like– We hosted the G7 at Camp David.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: These are a bunch of fucking Taliban goons. Like, they're
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: not foreign heads of state. They're a terrorist group. They
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: were killing U.S. service members this week. And now Trump
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: has blown up this process. Who knows when we'll get
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: back into it. And the Afghans are scared shitless that
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: this is going to lead to a huge surge in violence,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: especially with the election coming up on the 28th.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: So, like— You can say what if this was Obama
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: to so many different things. This is like one of
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: the ultimate what if this was Obama.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Of course, Trump attacked Obama in 2012 for having talks
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: with the Taliban. So there's always a tweet.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: But like Pfeiffer was texting us this over the weekend.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: He was like, if Barack Obama brought the Taliban to
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: Camp David, Fox would need to start. immediately another Fox
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: News station just to contain all of the attacks on
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: Barack Obama.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Why not the Lincoln bedroom? Why not have him at
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: the fucking White House? Why go halfway?
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: But like, so the New York Times did a really
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: great TikTok on what you were saying, Lovett, trying to like,
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: backtrack from his tweet on everything that actually happened. And
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: they updated it, you pointed out, Tommy, late last night
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: with a paragraph that really says it all because they
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: were saying, a fundamental dividing point that was contributing to
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: the collapse of the talks was this.
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: Mr.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Trump did not want the Camp David meeting to be
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: a celebration of the deal after staying out of the
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: details of what has been a delicate effort in a
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: complicated region. Trump wanted to be the dealmaker who would
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: put the final parts together himself, or at least perceived
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: to be. So one of the things that collapsed this
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: whole fucking deal was the fact that Trump didn't think
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: he was going to get enough credit for it, even
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: though he didn't deserve the credit for it.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: He wants to lick the spoon with the batter on
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: it and then say he made a cake.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: He wanted to be Jimmy Carter, which... Like sitting between
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Sadat and Begin and like bringing these, you know, the
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: sides together. It's just I'm blown away by how crazy
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: this is. Never in a million years did I think
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump would want to bring the Taliban to Camp David.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: But he is a, you know, he's a reality fucking
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: TV star. And the whole thing is just, the whole
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: thing is a show. The whole thing is a show.
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: The next person who hates him, he's trying to get
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: to Camp David, is Melania Trump, everybody. But seriously, but seriously,
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: he's terrible.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: There you go. That's the kind of analysis we crave.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Tip your servers.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: You can see more of this at Radio City.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Radio City Music Hall. Can you believe it?
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: All right. Let's talk about 2020. As 10 candidates get
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: ready to meet in Houston for a third round of
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: debates on Thursday evening, CBS released a set of early
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: state polls, which we cannot say enough are a lot
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: more useful than national polls, that show three frontrunners and
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: everyone else you know, a little far behind. In Iowa,
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: it's Joe Biden at 29%, Bernie Sanders at 26%, and
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth Warren at 17%. New Hampshire is Warren 27, Biden 26,
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: Sanders 25. South Carolina is Biden 43, Sanders 18, Warren 14.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: And in Nevada, it's Sanders 29, Biden 27, Warren 18.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: No one else polled in double digits in any of
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: the four states. So guys, the lead of the CBS
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: story about these numbers is, quote, This poll tells a
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: story about Elizabeth Warren rising, but not Joe Biden falling. Tommy,
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: do you agree with that? And what does a race
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: look like where those two things are happening?
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: It's a good question. I mean, I do think it
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: speaks to something I heard over and over again in
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Iowa when I was there for a few days was
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: just how hard it is to break through if you're
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: not a top tier candidate, if you're not seen as
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: part of the national conversation about electability and beating Trump
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: and everything else. And I think it also speaks to
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: the fact that Elizabeth Warren is running a good campaign.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: The conversation about Elizabeth Warren is how she has plans
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: and she's running a good campaign. And that's, that's helping
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: her over time. Other people are just not getting a look.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, these debates might be, you know, their last
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: chances potentially to really do something exciting and break through. Ultimately,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: I do think the results in Iowa will be the
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: biggest springboard for whomever does the best to get that
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: last media bounce and do well in New Hampshire and
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: start racking up delegates. But I think it, ultimately speaks
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: to a relatively stable race, except for this rise of Warren.
• 33:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Lovett, what did you take from it?
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's true.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: I think it's worth remembering, too, that we have seen
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: candidates break this kind of hold that Biden, Warren, Sanders
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: have in the field. Kamala Harris did it at the
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: last debate. There are still opportunities for candidates to do that.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: To me, I mean, I think one of the stories
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: of what's happened is Kamala surged and then wasn't able
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: to maintain that lead. And I think it's worth asking why.
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: And I think it has a lot to do with
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: the fact that many stories about Kamala Harris's campaign tend
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: to be about what Kamala Harris's campaign is doing to
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: fix Kamala Harris's campaign. And that's been sort of a
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: trap that her campaign has been in for a long time,
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: in part because I think she struggled to find an argument,
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: a message that stands out from the three being offered,
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: which are pretty cogent at this point, from Biden and
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: Warren and Sanders.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: I also think it says something about Elizabeth Warren's challenge
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: going forward. So there's been a lot of there's a
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: lot of talk about lanes in the primary. And a
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: lot of people, when they talk about lanes, they think
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: of ideological lanes. And so they think there's a progressive
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: lane and a moderate lane. But the truth is, Joe
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: Biden and Bernie Sanders draw their support disproportionately from non-college
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: educated white voters, younger non-college educated white voters and also
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: non-college educated black voters and Latino voters and in Joe
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Biden's case, black voters in total. And it does seem
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: at times like when you look into digging into some
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: of these numbers, Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris and Pete
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: Buttigieg and even Cory Booker and Beto O'Rourke and some
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: of the other candidates are all fighting over a lot
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: of college educated white progressives. And These polls sort of
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: show that Elizabeth Warren is winning that fight. A lot
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: of these people, you know, it shows that these polls
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: show that people who were supporting Harris before have moved
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: to Warren. She's getting support from some of the other
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: lower tier candidates who are losing support. They're all going
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: to Warren now. So she's consolidating a lot of the
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: college educated white liberals vote. But the question is, if
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: she wants to beat Biden, beat Sanders, she's got to
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: break into She's got to start doing better with non-college
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: educated white voters and black voters and Latino voters better
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: than she's doing. And the question there is, are these
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: voters just not into her yet or are they not
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: closely engaged in the race yet? Because we know that
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: the most engaged voters right now are these college educated
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: white liberals. And so that's the question that we can't
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: answer yet. I also thought like, do you guys look
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: at these polls and think that maybe people have been
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: underestimating Bernie Sanders strength as he's hanging in there and
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: all these polls first or second in most of these states?
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean, to me, Bernie's sort
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: of ability to stick it out probably speaks a lot
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: to name identification and comfort level with him. I mean, Biden,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: for all the criticisms you see of him and policies
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: and previously held positions and gaffes and all this crap
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: that sort of swirls on Twitter every day, most people
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: just know that he's a popular vice president for a
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: popular two-term president who they've seen on the national stage
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: for eight years and think like, Oh, that guy looks
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: like a president. Cause they saw him in the white
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: house for eight years. Bernie Sanders is someone that was
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: pretty well introduced to the country in 2016. I think
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: unless you are a hardcore Hillary Clinton supporter, you probably
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: have a relatively favorable impression of Bernie Sanders. Um, I
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: think that he needs to do more to make inroads
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: with the folks who were ride or die for Hillary.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: And I'm not sure that they have achieved that quite yet. Uh,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: but you know, be, Bernie comes off as likable and
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: charming and consistent. So, you know, I think that's probably
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: what people know of him.
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: And there also, there is a progressive, I mean, I
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: just said that there was a sort of a lane
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: of college educated versus non-college educated voters. There's also, he's
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: fighting Elizabeth Warren for progressive voters. You know, they both
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: are fighting each other for that, for the most progressive voters.
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: Love it.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: What did you think?
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: I mean, the thing I would add is, you know,
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: Bernie in part, you know, Bernie was captured a larger
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: share of the electorate when he was facing just Hillary Clinton.
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: So one question I'd have is, where are the people
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: who supported Bernie before?
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Where did they go?
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: And I would imagine many of them went to Elizabeth
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: Warren and some to other candidates, but there's a kind of, yeah,
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: an ideological alignment between Warren and Bernie that I think
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: is a challenge for both of those campaigns.
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: I also think it shows that like none of the
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: candidates have really figured out how to peel away some
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: of Joe Biden's support. that the focus on, and it's
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: not really just a candidate focus because it's really sort
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: of a media focus and sort of some of the
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: surrogates and the campaign staff and all that kind of stuff,
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: but a lot of focus on his gaffes, a lot
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: of focus on is he losing his step, a lot
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: of focus on, you know, is he sufficiently progressive enough?
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: And I think at some point it's time for some
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: of these candidates to realize that those lines of attack
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: on Biden are not really having an effect and that
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: if you want to start peeling away Biden's support, you're
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: going to have to find another argument.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, certainly it was true that Kamala Harris
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: was able to, I think, do a number on Biden
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: at that first debate. I think that some of the
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: attacks on Biden at the second debate backfired. And that
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: it might have, I mean, I heard this anecdotally, but
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: that a lot of the criticisms people heard came off
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: as nitpicking or too negative or unfair in some way.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying I agree with those descriptions, but those
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: are just some of the things I heard from various people.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I do think they're going to
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: need a more effective way to go after him. Maybe
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: as folks pay attention more closely in the fall, people
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: will just think harder about what they want of the
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: next president, who they think can win. I still think
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: this electability question is all-consuming for most voters in early states.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that the other candidates have to
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: make a case for their own electability, and I think
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: that they can. I think each one of them has
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: a good argument about why they're the most electable candidate,
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: and some of them are different.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: I also think this debate.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: That's coming up this week, like Kamala Harris and Pete
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: Buttigieg and some of the others do sort of have
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: to figure out a way to differentiate themselves from these
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: three frontrunners. Buttigieg sort of gave a hint of that
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: over the weekend in New Hampshire. He said, we need
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: ideas big enough to meet this moment, but it's not
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: enough to think up good policy. We've got to unify
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: Americans around these solutions or nothing will actually get done.
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: It's why I'm not making some of the promises that
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: some of the candidates to my left are. I share
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: the goals and believe that we can do it in
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: a way that will bring Americans together. What do you
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: guys think of that? That's interesting because that's not Pete
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: Buttigieg thinking, I need to take down Biden. That's him thinking,
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: I need to differentiate myself from Sanders and Warren.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: It's saying we need an alternative to Biden, right? Which
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: I think has actually been motivating a number of candidates.
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: I think it's actually why a number of candidates have
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: been staying in the race from Michael Bennett to Buttigieg
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: and others. There's a kind of, you know, under... An
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: unspoken aspect to all of this, which is we don't
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: really know if Biden is the Trump of this race,
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: the person who may not have a majority, but will
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: have a strong plurality that carries them to the nomination.
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: And because everyone else is kind of divided, no one
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: becomes an alternative and Biden gets the nomination. Or is
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: he more like a Jeb, who is someone who has
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: garnered a lot of establishment support and some money and
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: some talent and but ultimately doesn't have what it takes
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: to win the nomination. And I think there are a
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: bunch of candidates who are looking at Joe Biden and saying,
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: I'm going to bet on this candidacy being softer than
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: it looks. And that, that 30% at some point becomes 25,
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: becomes 20, becomes 15. And all of a sudden people
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: are deciding between Warren and an alternative, whoever that may be.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a, it was a subtle contrast and
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: it was interesting departure from a purely generational contrast, although
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: that was probably infused in the speech. And frankly, Just
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: seeing Pete on stage with some of these candidates makes
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: the generational contrast more than anything he could actually say.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: The thing to watch with Pete is he's got money.
• 41:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: And he's investing it in early states. And when I
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: saw him at the state fair, he had a big
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: ass crowd on a Tuesday and how he's opened like
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: a dozen more offices and he's up on TV early.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: And so, look, anything can happen in these races. I mean,
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: we all remember 2004. when Howard Dean was going to
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: be the nominee and it was a runaway effort. And
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: then there was essentially this just negative, you know, murder
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: suicide between him and Dick Gephardt in the closing days
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: before Iowa. And then John Kerry and John Edwards emerged.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: So like there's a million different ways it could play out,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: but I would feel pretty good if I were Pete
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: and I had resources, I wouldn't feel great about the
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: fact that my, the, the surge I'd seen in the polls,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: relative surge has dipped a little bit.
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: And I think for him, um, if you're going to
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: make this case, it's fair to make it, but you've
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: got to go all the way. You don't have to
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: whack everyone else on stage, but you've got to get
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: into the details.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Spell it out.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Really what he's talking about is he's for Medicare for
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: all who want it as opposed to Medicare for all.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: So that is a real difference that he has with
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: Warren and Sanders that he could talk about a lot
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: at this debate. On some of the other issues, it's
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: not as clear. He's pretty much taken a lot of
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: the progressive positions. He has sort of talked about how
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: he cares more about the deficit than some other democrats
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: too so maybe he makes that case um but i
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: think the last two debates he had he's had some
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: pretty good debates and he's been pretty solid but he
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: has been reluctant to draw differences between him and the
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: other candidates on stage and he probably has to do
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: that on thursday uh and still do it in a
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: way that is respectful and true to himself right because
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: that's the kind of campaign he's running so that should
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: be interesting to watch and it should be interesting to
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: watch what kamala harris does too Because, you know, she
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: said her message over the weekend was, you know, there's
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: so much more that unites us than divides us, which
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: is not really a message about differentiating yourself too much
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: from everyone else, but it's trying to be the person
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: who says, OK, enough of all this like infighting. We
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: should all sort of take on Donald Trump together because
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: more unifies us, which is an interesting message, but also
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: different from how she was with Biden in previous debates.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: So that's sort of interesting to watch, too.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also like that.
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: It's it's like partially rhetorical.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: It's a rhetorical argument, which I don't think actually has
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: much value. And I don't, you know, in Pete's ad,
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: he talks about how we need solutions. And again, it's like,
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: I don't know, whenever now, maybe it's because I still
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: carry some emotional baggage from 2008. But whenever someone says like,
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: we need solutions, I just see a poll document that
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: makes me think somebody, they want solutions, they don't want partisanship.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: And so I'm going to start saying that. But with Kamala,
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: you know, I think that there is this opening, right,
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: which she seems sort of like half willing to take,
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: which is, All right. So you like Warren and you
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: like Bernie because they're further to the left and they
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: have a big argument for structural change that we need
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: in this country.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: And you agree with that.
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: But then you look at someone like Joe Biden and
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: you see polls that show that he is doing better
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: against Trump in some key swing states. And you're terrified
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: of losing. You're terrified of what's going to happen to
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: the country if we don't put up the right candidate.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: And so you're torn because you want big liberal ideas,
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: but you want to win more than anything. And you
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: don't know how to sort through this. Well, here I am,
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: someone who's going to kind of split the difference.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: And maybe there's a maybe.
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: There's a compelling way to make that argument.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: But I'm still it all it just so it just
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: feels like we're still, you know, I don't know, dancing
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: around that specific case. I just think that the message
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: that's going to resonate in Iowa especially is going to
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: be about how you're the person who can beat Donald Trump.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: And why? To the extent that folks are making cases
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: where they're sort of obliquely criticizing policy ideas as too
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: big or too small or too destructive, I just kind
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: of think you're missing the boat. Like, of course, people
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: care about policy. Like, the health care debate is fundamental
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: and existential for a lot of people. But all of
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: them are resigned to the fact that it is irrelevant
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: what your plan says if you don't win.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that. Okay, when we come back,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: my interview with Adi Barkin.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: On the pod today, we are very happy to welcome
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: back our good friend Adi Barkin.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Adi, how are you feeling?
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: I know you had to go to the hospital a
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: few times over the last week, and you're back home now.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: So how are you feeling?
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: Thank you for having me and for asking. I'm feeling better,
• 45:54
  Speaker 6: but my body is continually declining. I'm going to need
• 45:58
  Speaker 6: a pretty big surgery soon to keep breathing and around-the-clock care.
• 46:03
  Speaker 6: Heady times in our household.
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: Well, it's good that you will go get that if
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: that's what's needed, but I know that can't be fun.
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: But we're very glad that you're with us today. And
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: especially this week, you know, Recently, you just launched Uncovered,
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: a video series where you sat down with Democratic candidates
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: for president to talk about health care. There's been a
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: lot of discussion about health care in debates in town halls.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: There's going to be a lot more. What did you
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: want to highlight in Uncovered that you feel people aren't
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: getting from all the other discussions of health care that
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: we've been having in the primary?
• 46:43
  Speaker 6: Well, there definitely has been discussion of health care. This
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: is one of the most important issues on the minds
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: of Democrats and Americans generally. Which makes sense, because it's
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: a life and death issue for the tens of millions
• 46:57
  Speaker 6: without any insurance in this country, and for the people
• 47:00
  Speaker 6: who are cutting their pills in half because the cost
• 47:03
  Speaker 6: of prescription drugs is spiraling out of control. But, let's
• 47:07
  Speaker 6: be honest. The discussion kind of sucks. You've got these
• 47:12
  Speaker 6: massive debates filled with centrist white dudes running vanity campaigns.
• 47:17
  Speaker 6: You've got moderators from the corporate media asking questions fed
• 47:20
  Speaker 6: to them by Republican strategists and insurance lobbyists. And the
• 47:25
  Speaker 6: actual top-tier candidates are getting 30 or 60 seconds to
• 47:28
  Speaker 6: answer big hard questions about rebuilding our nation's health care system? So,
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: I figured we could do better than that, and have
• 47:36
  Speaker 6: some wonky conversations grounded in real human experience. I wanted
• 47:41
  Speaker 6: to ask about their perspectives on health insurance, and also
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: on political strategy and tactics. How were they going to
• 47:49
  Speaker 6: actually affect change? I wanted to push them from the left,
• 47:53
  Speaker 6: which never happens in the televised debates, because it is
• 47:57
  Speaker 6: not like.
• 47:57
  Speaker 5: They're letting Amy Goodman moderate.
• 48:00
  Speaker 6: I figured that I would be able to drill down
• 48:02
  Speaker 6: over a 60-minute interview in a way that simply cannot
• 48:05
  Speaker 6: be done on live TV. I also wanted to talk
• 48:08
  Speaker 6: about other elements of the healthcare system. Funding for basic
• 48:13
  Speaker 6: medical research. addressing the opioid epidemic and the war on drugs. But,
• 48:19
  Speaker 6: you know, John, I'm an egomaniac and total media whore.
• 48:23
  Speaker 6: So the main reason I wanted to do this was
• 48:25
  Speaker 6: for the attention and book promotion.
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: Let's be frank.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: That is exactly how I've always known you, Adi, as
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: an egomaniac star for attention. Also, you interviewed several candidates
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: who do not support Bernie's Medicare for All bill. Did
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: you find any of their arguments persuasive? And what sense
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: did you get of why they're resistant to Medicare for All?
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: Do you think it's a genuine concern for pragmatism? Do
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: you think it's politics that they're worried about? Do you
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: think it's policy? Where do you think it comes from?
• 49:06
  Speaker 6: Kamala was more persuasive than I expected, honestly. That episode
• 49:11
  Speaker 6: drops tomorrow. but that was partially because I'm fucking paralyzed
• 49:15
  Speaker 6: and it takes me forever to write responses, so I
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: sometimes had trouble drilling down on how her plan will
• 49:21
  Speaker 6: actually work. But she is obviously a brilliant politician and
• 49:26
  Speaker 6: is right that people like being told they have options.
• 49:29
  Speaker 6: But let me tell you a story about the absurdity
• 49:32
  Speaker 6: of this debate. My wife Rachel is seven months pregnant
• 49:35
  Speaker 6: with our second baby, due in mid-November. A few days ago,
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: She got a letter from our private health insurance company
• 49:43
  Speaker 6: saying that she needs to find a new OBGYN because
• 49:46
  Speaker 6: hers will be out of network starting November 3rd. You
• 49:50
  Speaker 6: couldn't script it more evil. And people are worried that
• 49:53
  Speaker 6: Medicare for All is going to make us lose our doctors?
• 49:57
  Speaker 6: You will be shocked to hear no one convinced me
• 49:59
  Speaker 6: that Medicare for All is not the right approach. The
• 50:03
  Speaker 6: thing I kept hearing from those who disagreed with me
• 50:05
  Speaker 6: was that the American people wouldn't be okay with Medicare
• 50:08
  Speaker 6: for All in one fell swoop. because it's too much
• 50:11
  Speaker 6: of a radical departure from the status quo, without the
• 50:14
  Speaker 6: intermediate step of a public option. That some people actually
• 50:18
  Speaker 6: do like their health insurance policies. That does not ring
• 50:22
  Speaker 6: true to me, because I believe people like their doctors,
• 50:25
  Speaker 6: not Aetna or Blue Cross, and I have yet to
• 50:28
  Speaker 6: hear a convincing argument to dissuade me. I really hope
• 50:32
  Speaker 6: they expand their sense of what's possible, because Americans have
• 50:36
  Speaker 6: embraced big changes to the status quo before. like the
• 50:39
  Speaker 6: creation of Social Security and Medicare. Regardless, I will say this, John,
• 50:46
  Speaker 6: I really appreciated that so many candidates had the courage
• 50:49
  Speaker 6: to agree to sit down with me, even when they
• 50:51
  Speaker 6: knew we disagree about the policy. It's disappointing and deeply
• 50:56
  Speaker 6: troubling that Vice President Biden joins hasn't agreed. Especially when
• 51:00
  Speaker 6: we know he has such a powerful personal story to
• 51:03
  Speaker 6: tell about his own family's experience with the healthcare system.
• 51:07
  Speaker 6: If he can't handle questions from a paralyzed father, how
• 51:11
  Speaker 6: is he going to stand up to the slaps and
• 51:13
  Speaker 6: attacks from Donald Trump? He's gonna get his ass hooped,
• 51:17
  Speaker 6: and American democracy will go down the drain, unless he
• 51:21
  Speaker 6: steps up fast.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you and me both, man. We've been trying to
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: get him on the pod, too, and he won't come
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: talk to us, either. But you're right, he does have
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: a powerful personal story to tell about this. He's talked
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: about it in ads, and Look, first of all, I
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: also have to say, because you just slipped it in there,
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: congratulations to you and Rachel that Carl's going to have
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: a sibling. By the way, how does Carl feel about this?
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: Does he understand what's going on? Has he said anything
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: about Rachel being pregnant?
• 51:54
  Speaker 5: He is excited.
• 51:55
  Speaker 6: Wants to name her table. Was giving some precious belly
• 51:59
  Speaker 6: cuddles yesterday. But I don't think that he has any
• 52:03
  Speaker 6: clue what he is in for.
• 52:04
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: I'm excited for him and excited for you guys. So
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: last question on on health care and these interviews and
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: Medicare for all. I mean, what obviously there is a
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: you know, one of the things that advocates for Medicare
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: for all and activists are dealing with is that voters
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: and people that we have to persuade. sort of have
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: set opinions about healthcare, a lot of it based on,
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: you know, some misinformation that's out there, whether it's inaccurate
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: reporting in the media, whether it's Republican talking points, insurance
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: industry talking points, like, what do you, what do you
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: say to someone who looks at Medicare for all and says, okay,
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: I love the idea that everything is covered, um, that
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: I don't have to worry about private insurance screwing me
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: over anymore. Um, that's, my health care is finally going
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: to be affordable.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: I like all that.
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: But I'm sort of worried, you know, what happens when
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: it's the government who I don't trust that much, especially
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: now that Donald Trump's in charge? What if what if
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: there's another Republican president crazy like Donald Trump and the
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: government is the only entity that's deciding what the insurance
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: they offer covers and what it doesn't? You know, should
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: we have that? Should we give up that much control
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: to the government, especially if it's a government like Trump's
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: that I don't agree with. And then the other thing is, okay, well,
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: I'm going to save all this money, which is wonderful,
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: but are my taxes going to go up? And what
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: if my taxes go up by more than I pay
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: for healthcare?
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: What happens then?
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: So those are the only two concerns that I could imagine,
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: like real people having, not sort of scared politicians, but
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: actual people who are thinking about whether this is the
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: right move for the country.
• 53:48
  Speaker 5: That's a good question.
• 53:50
  Speaker 6: I think on the first, we already see how much
• 53:53
  Speaker 6: damage Trump can do to the private system. Tens of
• 53:56
  Speaker 6: millions impacted by his bullshit. But Medicare and Social Security
• 54:01
  Speaker 6: have actually been pretty safe, because of their popularity. So
• 54:06
  Speaker 6: the key is to have a great program that is
• 54:08
  Speaker 6: politically untouchable.
• 54:10
  Speaker 5: I think we can get there. On number two, I think.
• 54:14
  Speaker 6: We just need progressive taxation to replace the absurdly regressive
• 54:17
  Speaker 6: cost of our current model. And we need a nominee
• 54:21
  Speaker 6: who can lay that out persuasively.
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: So, last question about your Uncovered series. Did anyone or
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: anything surprise you? Did you learn anything new from these interviews?
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 54:33
  Speaker 6: I learned that Cory Booker is a world-class politician. So
• 54:37
  Speaker 6: ridiculously smooth and smart, able to shift gears, intonations, registers.
• 54:43
  Speaker 6: I left that interview feeling like he had run circles
• 54:46
  Speaker 6: around me, furious at my ALS for depriving me of
• 54:49
  Speaker 6: the ability to go toe-to-toe, resigned to pecking out my
• 54:53
  Speaker 6: text letter by letter.
• 54:55
  Speaker 5: In my youth, John, three years ago, I could have
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: been a contender.
• 55:00
  Speaker 6: It was fun to talk sports with Bernie, although homeboy
• 55:03
  Speaker 6: still refuses to open up about.
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: His family and illness. It's very weird.
• 55:09
  Speaker 6: Elizabeth Warren has magnificent interpersonal skills. I have witnessed it
• 55:14
  Speaker 6: before when we've met. but she did one of those
• 55:16
  Speaker 6: selfie lines in my living room for all my friends
• 55:19
  Speaker 6: and neighbors. She has Bill Clinton level charm up close,
• 55:23
  Speaker 6: without the penchant for sexual harassment. She's got Obama's management
• 55:28
  Speaker 6: chops and intellectual firepower, and she has a race-slash-class analysis
• 55:33
  Speaker 6: and policy agenda straight out of Jesse Jackson's 1988 Rainbow
• 55:37
  Speaker 6: Coalition campaign. Pretty potent stuff. But I'm voting for John
• 55:42
  Speaker 6: Delaney in the primary. He's the most electable.
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: You know, I would have thought that you were a
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: Steve Bullock guy, but, you know, Delaney works, too. I
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: have to say, Addy, too, like, you know, when Warren
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: came here early on in the primary for interview, it
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: was the same way. She was so unbelievably charismatic, so
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: much energy, bouncing around the office, talking to everyone, shaking
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: every hand. Just, I think she probably, people underestimate her. Um, they,
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: you know, they talk about her as a policy wonk
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: who can run circles around anyone, but I think they
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: underestimate her charisma when you, um, when you meet her in, in, uh,
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: in person because.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: It's, uh, it's something. Um, okay.
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: So, uh, your memoir eyes to the wind is being
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: released this week, uh, Tuesday, September 10th. Um, I am
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: a enormous fan of this book, read it a couple
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: months ago, laughed, cried, was incredibly inspired. I want every
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: single person to read it. Why did you decide to
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: write this book?
• 56:44
  Speaker 5: Thank you. It means a lot coming from you.
• 56:49
  Speaker 6: I wrote it as an ode to collective action and
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: civic engagement, and as a call to action. I wanted
• 56:55
  Speaker 6: people to know how much our country needs them to
• 56:57
  Speaker 6: get involved right now, and also how much people have
• 57:01
  Speaker 6: to gain personally from getting involved in the struggle for justice.
• 57:05
  Speaker 6: I wanted to put together a record of my life
• 57:07
  Speaker 6: for friends and family. But mostly... I wanted to leave
• 57:11
  Speaker 6: behind a letter of sorts for Carl and his sister.
• 57:15
  Speaker 6: I really want them to be proud of me.
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: And what lessons do you hope people take away from it?
• 57:22
  Speaker 6: There are times, especially these days, when the state of
• 57:26
  Speaker 6: things in our country seem impossibly bleak. Whether it's the
• 57:30
  Speaker 6: climate crisis or voting rights or police violence or corporate
• 57:33
  Speaker 6: capture of our courts, we have immense structural problems that
• 57:38
  Speaker 6: often feel beyond the pale. but the truth is that
• 57:41
  Speaker 6: despair is not the answer, and we have never needed
• 57:44
  Speaker 6: people to get involved more. Not only because it is
• 57:47
  Speaker 6: the only way out of our current national nightmare, but
• 57:50
  Speaker 6: because I deeply believe people have a lot to gain
• 57:53
  Speaker 6: from becoming politically engaged. Joining the movement has given me
• 57:57
  Speaker 6: such a strong sense of purpose, and such a community
• 58:00
  Speaker 6: of caring people, that it's even lessened the burden of
• 58:03
  Speaker 6: this terrible disease. I know a lot of people across
• 58:07
  Speaker 6: the country would come to benefit from activism, as they
• 58:10
  Speaker 6: serve the twin purpose of making our nation more fair
• 58:13
  Speaker 6: and just.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: So, you know, one of the things you've written is that,
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: which I really loved, is that the wisdom to know
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: the difference between what we can and cannot change can
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: only be earned through struggle. Can you talk about how
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: you came to that conclusion?
• 58:31
  Speaker 6: Through a lot of tears, conversations with friends and family,
• 58:36
  Speaker 6: some reading, and late, late nights, stoned in my recliner,
• 58:41
  Speaker 6: trying to figure out what the hell to do with
• 58:43
  Speaker 6: myself in the face of ALS and Donald Trump. This
• 58:47
  Speaker 6: is one of the central themes that I explore in
• 58:49
  Speaker 6: the memoir, and I don't want to scoop myself. All
• 58:53
  Speaker 6: you friends of the pod out there, go ahead, press pause,
• 58:57
  Speaker 6: buy the book right now, and get me up that
• 59:00
  Speaker 6: best-selling list. Jon Favreau will personally refund your purchase if
• 59:04
  Speaker 6: you don't love the book. And if you prefer audiobooks,
• 59:08
  Speaker 6: which you probably do. guess who is reading it? Josh
• 59:12
  Speaker 6: fucking Lyman himself. The mellifluous Bradley Whitford.
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: No joke.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: I have made that promise.
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: Just let me know Just send me back the book
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: if you're not happy, and within a few days, I'll
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: turn around the refund.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: That is the promise that I have made.
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: So, you know, you were just talking about sort of
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: how you came to this wisdom through sort of a
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: lot of conversation with friends, through sitting in your recliner.
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, so much of what you write about in
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: the memoir sort of explores the tension between the acceptance
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: of a terminal illness... and the push of activists to
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: never accept the world as it is. So it is
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: this sort of tension. How have you learned to deal
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: with that tension? And I imagine it's a process that
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: is ongoing.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 6: Definitely ongoing and difficult. I have come to understand the
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 6: difference this way. I can do nothing to change the
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 6: fact of my terminal illness. There is no cure for
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 6: ALS right now, and there is nothing I can do
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 6: to stop my rapid neurological decay. To flail against it
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 6: helplessly would only cause me additional grief and suffering, so
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 6: the only thing I can do is accept it. That
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 6: isn't true about the healthcare crisis in this country, or
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 6: systemic racism, or the climate emergency barreling towards our shorelines
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 6: every day. Resisting those challenges, whether by marching, or voting,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 6: or petitioning, that's the only way to solve the most
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 6: pressing problems facing our society. And that is why I'm
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 6: doing everything I can, even as paralysis grips more of
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 6: my body every day. Struggling for justice is a fruitful endeavor.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 6: It even makes my ALS more tolerable.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: My last question, Adi, what piece of advice would you
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: give to someone who's newly active in politics and social
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: justice work, who's sort of facing a world that seems
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: very fucked up, Donald Trump's president, Maybe they want to
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: help and they're eager, but they're a little worried that
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: maybe they won't be able to make a difference. Maybe
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 3: this work is too hard. Maybe they're going to face
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: all these setbacks and disappointments. What advice do you have
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: for that person as someone who has been through so
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: much and fought so hard?
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 5: I think two things.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 6: First, we have no idea what the future holds. That's
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 6: the lesson of Trump, the lesson of my ALS. So
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 6: don't despair or give up prematurely. We really cannot predict
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 6: next year, let alone next decade. Second, I think Sarah
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 6: Palin or another feminist icon put it best. Never misunderstand
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 6: how much difference a small group of dedicated people can make.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 6: It really is our Congress, our democracy, our future for
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 6: the making.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 5: Adi.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: Wise words, as always.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: And I do believe that was a direct quote from
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: Sarah Palin.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much, as always, for joining us. Everyone,
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: go watch Uncovered, Adi's video series, which you can get it,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: you can see at our site too, cricket.com slash be
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: a hero. And most importantly... Please go buy the book,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: Eyes to the Wind. You can go to BeAHeroFund.com, Adi's website.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: They're selling it there. You can go to Adi's Twitter,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: at Adi Barkin. There's a link there as well. And Adi,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: we love you very much. Give Rachel our love and
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: give Carl a hug for us too. And take care
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: and we'll talk to you soon.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 6: Thanks for your friendship and your work, John. You're an
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 6: American patriot. God bless you. God bless America. And God
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 6: save the pod.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: Thanks, buddy. We'll talk to you soon. Take care.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 5: Bye-bye.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: Thanks to Adi for joining us. And we will see
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: you at our post-debate show on Friday. And then, you know,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: you can see Love It Friday night at Radio City.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: Damn right you can. And thanks to the DNC for
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: making this thing one night. Watching two videos in a
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: week was annoying.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: Well, we'll go back to it in October. We forgot
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: to say that fucking Tom Steyer made the debate in October.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Tom, you did it. Two debates.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 4: You got yourself a second debate.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: What a system. Good for you.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: I'm excited to see it.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: Same.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 5: Same.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: All right, everyone. See you later.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: Pod Save America is a product of Crooked Media. The
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: senior producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: our sound engineer. Thanks to Carolyn Reston, Tanya Somanator, and
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: Katie Long for production support. And to our digital team,
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: Elijah Cohn, Narmel Coney, and Yael Freed, and Milo Kim,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: who film and upload these episodes as a video every week.