Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Murder by SLEEPWALKING!

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Murder by SLEEPWALKING! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Murder requires specific intent. It
0:18
Speaker 1: can be implied or specific, but there must be intent
0:25
Speaker 1: to do the act. But what about a recent spate
0:29
Speaker 1: of murders committed while the killer is sound asleep, And
0:36
Speaker 1: believe it or not, some jurdars are actually buying it.
0:48
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Am I understanding this? A
0:56
Speaker 1: jury actually equits someone of murder because they claim that
1:01
Speaker 1: they slept. Walk through the entire or deal. First of all,
1:06
Speaker 1: take a listen to this. They are not in the
1:08
Speaker 1: one with her head. There's something going on with a
1:11
Speaker 1: young boy and my son in law. We need help.
1:14
Speaker 1: We need andrans and police please, okay, we'll have a
1:18
Speaker 1: dearly emergency. There's a young boy and my grandson four
1:22
Speaker 1: years old. We can't wake him up. The father is
1:25
Speaker 1: rocked up in a room. We don't know what's going on.
1:27
Speaker 1: Everybody's screaming. Wow, that must be some sound sleeper because
1:31
Speaker 1: everybody is screaming and daddy's still asleep. Listen to a
1:36
Speaker 1: little bit more of that. Nine mone call and tell
1:38
Speaker 1: me what's going on. I don't know. My daughter's up
1:41
Speaker 1: there screaming. So her husband is in a in his study.
1:45
Speaker 1: He can't. He won't come out. And now there's a
1:47
Speaker 1: young boy, his son, four years old. We can't wake
1:51
Speaker 1: him up. Okay, and I don't know what's going on.
1:54
Speaker 1: We need an emergency as fast as possible. Yes, down,
1:59
Speaker 1: that follows me. Okay, I will have information for you.
2:01
Speaker 1: Someone else is going to get him on the way. Okay,
2:06
Speaker 1: is it your grandson? My grandson is twenty years old.
2:09
Speaker 1: My daughters trying to break into a door. We don't
2:12
Speaker 1: know if he's alive or not alive. Well, I can
2:14
Speaker 1: answer that much. He's dead. The four year old little
2:18
Speaker 1: boy is dad. You can hear screaming and wailing in
2:22
Speaker 1: the background. With me an all star panel to break
2:26
Speaker 1: you down and put it back together again. But first
2:28
Speaker 1: of all, let me ask Cheryl McCollum, director of the
2:30
Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, joining US forensics expert. The defense says,
2:36
Speaker 1: daddy's asleep. Hold on, Cheryl, Satellite down Christy, Missouri with
2:40
Speaker 1: me Emmy Award winning investigative reporter Christie. Is that correct? Well,
2:46
Speaker 1: you know, if you'd like to believe the defense team,
2:49
Speaker 1: that's what they're claiming, sleep walking, right, But these are
2:53
Speaker 1: some tragic tales to this evening in fact, it's the
2:59
Speaker 1: daughter Alexa has had to fight her father off. This
3:02
Speaker 1: is just almost too much for me to take in. Guys,
3:05
Speaker 1: let me finish introducing our panel with me Doctor Mark R. Pressman,
3:09
Speaker 1: sleep and Scientific evidence specialist Pressman Sleep and Science Forensics
3:14
Speaker 1: dot com and author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable
3:20
Speaker 1: Scientific Evidence and FYI. He's an expert on many of
3:26
Speaker 1: these sleepwalking cases. James Shellnutt twenty seven years on law enforcement,
3:31
Speaker 1: Police Force, now lawyer. You can find him at shelnut
3:35
Speaker 1: Lawfirm dot com. Doctor jen Mann therapist host on VH one.
3:41
Speaker 1: She's the host of Doctor Jen Show on series x
3:44
Speaker 1: sim She's an author of The Relationship Fix. Wow. I
3:48
Speaker 1: don't have enough paper to give you her resume, but
3:50
Speaker 1: doctor jen Man Therapist is joining us, as I said earlier.
3:54
Speaker 1: Director of the Cold Case Research Institute, let me know
3:56
Speaker 1: when her satellite issue it is up. You missed your
3:58
Speaker 1: first question, Cheryl, if you were in a sleep Cheryl McCollum,
4:02
Speaker 1: Director of the Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert
4:06
Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher. I can't wait to hear what he's
4:09
Speaker 1: got to say about this. He's a medical examiner for
4:11
Speaker 1: the entire state of Florida, and you can find him
4:14
Speaker 1: at pathcaremed dot com. And I already went to ire
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Speaker 1: Emmy Award winner Investigative Reporter Christy Missouri, President of Successful
4:24
Speaker 1: Strategies PR and Crisis Communications, and I would call this
4:28
Speaker 1: a crisis. Cheryl McCollum, I don't know if you could
4:31
Speaker 1: hear us. We could not hear you. But I just
4:33
Speaker 1: played part of a nine one one call, and just
4:36
Speaker 1: for you, Cheryl, I'm gonna play it again. Take a
4:39
Speaker 1: listen to this nine one one call. I'm not on
4:42
Speaker 1: a one week. There's something going on with a young
4:45
Speaker 1: boy and my son in law. We need help. We
4:49
Speaker 1: need angelis and police. Please, okay, we'll have a dearly emergency.
4:53
Speaker 1: Did a young boy and my grandson all years old.
4:57
Speaker 1: We can't wake him up. The father is rocked up
5:00
Speaker 1: a room. We don't know what's going on. Everybody's screaming
5:02
Speaker 1: and more than I'm all in call please Jack and
5:04
Speaker 1: tell me what's going on. I don't know. My daughter's
5:07
Speaker 1: up there screaming, so her husband is in a in
5:11
Speaker 1: his study. He can't he won't come out. And now
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Speaker 1: there's a young boy, his son four years old. We
5:17
Speaker 1: can't wake him up, okay, and I don't know what's
5:20
Speaker 1: going on. We need to emergency as fast as possible. Yes,
5:25
Speaker 1: down that hollow is me? Okay, I will have information
5:27
Speaker 1: for you. Someone else is going to get him on
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Speaker 1: the way. Okay there. How old is your is this
5:33
Speaker 1: your grandson? My grandson is four years old. My daughter's
5:36
Speaker 1: trying to break into a door. We don't know if
5:39
Speaker 1: he's alive or not alive. Stay on the phone. Are
5:41
Speaker 1: you kidding me? Uh, Cheryl Mccollumy, he needs to go
5:44
Speaker 1: break that door down. You hear screaming and wailing in
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Speaker 1: the background. Cheryl McCollum. I'm gonna go to Christy, Missouri
5:52
Speaker 1: in just a moment for all the facts. But are
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Speaker 1: you buying this? Are you actually buying this that the
5:59
Speaker 1: peer is asleep? He needs to break the door down,
6:03
Speaker 1: And no, I don't believe he's asleep. You can hear
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Speaker 1: everybody in that house screaming and having a fit and
6:10
Speaker 1: calling for more help, and he's going to sleep through it.
6:13
Speaker 1: I don't buy it. I mean, Cheryl, as you know,
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Speaker 1: I have slept walked, I sleep talk, I sleep walk,
6:20
Speaker 1: but it doesn't take a lot to wake me up.
6:25
Speaker 1: I don't get very far. It's my point. I just
6:28
Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe you can go in
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Speaker 1: a room, lock the door, murder your four year old
6:34
Speaker 1: child while everybody's still trying to bam the door down
6:37
Speaker 1: and screaming, and you sleep through it all. To Christy Missourich,
6:41
Speaker 1: investigative reporter and president of Successful Strategies PR in Crisis Communications,
6:48
Speaker 1: let me just start with this case. Start at the beginning,
6:51
Speaker 1: pick it up at the nine on one call. What happened?
6:53
Speaker 1: So it all starts with the daughter blasting into the
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Speaker 1: peri bedroom saying, you know mommy, hello, wa wait how
7:04
Speaker 1: old is the daughter? Wait a minute, wait a minute?
7:06
Speaker 1: How old is the daughter? Mid teens? Right, he has
7:10
Speaker 1: two older children and a tenure. Okay, So the team
7:13
Speaker 1: girl blast in into her parents' bedroom, okay, saying, Mommy,
7:19
Speaker 1: help us, help us, daddy's trying to hurt us. She
7:23
Speaker 1: tells police that her dad came into her room that
7:26
Speaker 1: night wearing a Halloween mask. No no, no, no, wait
7:31
Speaker 1: wait wait wait yes, stop everything. Did you hear that, Jackie?
7:36
Speaker 1: Did you hear that? Okay? Wearing a Halloween mask? It
7:41
Speaker 1: will be a cold day in h double l that
7:44
Speaker 1: I believe this guy slept through finding a Halloween mask.
7:49
Speaker 1: First of all, right, there, how am I going to
7:51
Speaker 1: find a Halloween costume that's not gonna happen until next
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Speaker 1: Halloween at Spirit Halloween dot com? And I go out
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Speaker 1: and buy one. The lord knows where Halloween costume is,
8:01
Speaker 1: but he gets a Halloween costume and puts the mask
8:05
Speaker 1: on around his head. Correct, Okay, I just wanted to
8:08
Speaker 1: make sure I understood that. Go ahead, Chrissy Missouri. I
8:11
Speaker 1: can't wait to hear what happens next. So she's asleep.
8:16
Speaker 1: She's asleep, and she wakes up days and confused to
8:21
Speaker 1: her dad on top of her, wearing a Halloween mask,
8:25
Speaker 1: pushing her head between her bed and a what do
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Speaker 1: you mean? On top of her? On top of her
8:30
Speaker 1: to molest her, on top of her, to kill her,
8:35
Speaker 1: to try to smother her, pushing her head between the
8:38
Speaker 1: bed and the wall. You know, if your bed's up
8:41
Speaker 1: to the corner where the wall meets the joint. He's
8:45
Speaker 1: trying to force her head in between the bed and
8:48
Speaker 1: the wall, trying to smother her. She passes out. Moments
8:54
Speaker 1: later here screams from her brother. She sees her father
8:58
Speaker 1: attacking her brother. She bites him tries to rip him
9:04
Speaker 1: off of the brother. That's when she goes to get
9:06
Speaker 1: her mom. The mom thinks that her husband's having a
9:10
Speaker 1: nervous breakdown and is unaware how serious four year old
9:14
Speaker 1: Blake's injuries are. That's when the grandpa gets riled up
9:17
Speaker 1: and called the police. Now, remember I told you the
9:21
Speaker 1: daughter Alexis fights her father off of her brother, and
9:26
Speaker 1: the dad takes off Halloween mask and toll and barricades
9:30
Speaker 1: himself in the home office. So he leaves the bedroom Christie, Missouri,
9:35
Speaker 1: and goes and hides in the home office. That's right,
9:38
Speaker 1: that's right. Okay. You know, to doctor Mark R. Pressman,
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Speaker 1: sleep scientific evidence Specialist, author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and
9:47
Speaker 1: Reliable Scientific Evidence, Doctor Pressman, there is no way that
9:53
Speaker 1: this guy sleepwalking. I don't care what science may say,
10:00
Speaker 1: and you know, I just don't How could he do
10:04
Speaker 1: all that and still be asleep? Well, to say that
10:08
Speaker 1: he's asleep, it's not exactly true. This is not normal sleep.
10:14
Speaker 1: This is sort of a weird mixture between deep sleep
10:17
Speaker 1: and waking that occurs because of some problems in the
10:23
Speaker 1: brain of sleepwalkers. So so sleepwalkers, he would not expect
10:30
Speaker 1: him to act just like anyone else who's asleep. Time
10:45
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, take a listen to our
10:51
Speaker 1: friends at w r AL. This is Aaron Hartness. Joseph
10:55
Speaker 1: Mitchell is accused of doing something almost unimaginable to most people.
10:59
Speaker 1: Deputies believe he suffocated his four year old son, Blake,
11:02
Speaker 1: and then stabbed himself multiple times. As Sir Twarren says,
11:06
Speaker 1: Mitchell's other two children say they woke up with something
11:09
Speaker 1: over their faces and had to fend off their father.
11:11
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Stan Harris says at some point during the attack,
11:15
Speaker 1: Mitchell's wife ran to another part of the house trying
11:17
Speaker 1: to get help for her children. As sirch twarrens says,
11:19
Speaker 1: the family was in deep financial trouble and their home
11:22
Speaker 1: was about to be seized by a bank. Well that
11:25
Speaker 1: played a major role, of minor role, we're just not
11:27
Speaker 1: a little to say right now. Poor documents say Mitchell's
11:29
Speaker 1: wife didn't know the extent of the financial trouble. Sirchwarren's show.
11:33
Speaker 1: Investigators took computers from the home along with copies of
11:37
Speaker 1: life insurance policies, including policies for all three children. Investigators
11:41
Speaker 1: also took a mask and a knife. Hold on, I
11:44
Speaker 1: can't write that fast. I need to learn shorthand. But
11:47
Speaker 1: what's really jumping out of me, doctor jen Man? A
11:51
Speaker 1: wife had no idea about the finances. Why is that
11:55
Speaker 1: still happening in twenty twenty one? B I heard the
11:58
Speaker 1: word life and sharans connected to policy. All right, so
12:03
Speaker 1: and I herd financial troubles. Did you hear all that,
12:06
Speaker 1: doctor jen I assure did Nancy. And you would be amazed,
12:10
Speaker 1: in this day and age, at how many couples organize
12:14
Speaker 1: their finances where one person, usually the person who everyone
12:18
Speaker 1: decides is kind of quote unquote better at those things,
12:21
Speaker 1: handles them and the other person is in the dark.
12:25
Speaker 1: And I always encourage couples that even if one person
12:28
Speaker 1: is handling the logistics of actually pressing the button to
12:32
Speaker 1: send the check or actually literally writing the check, that
12:35
Speaker 1: the other persons be involved so they know what's going on.
12:39
Speaker 1: But you'd be amazed at how often one partner is
12:41
Speaker 1: in the job. And you know, Jackie's over here rolling
12:44
Speaker 1: her eyes. Again, let me just say it's not always
12:48
Speaker 1: a woman. Do you know my brother with a successful career,
12:52
Speaker 1: very successful career, brags he doesn't know how to use
12:56
Speaker 1: an ATM and his wife handles all the finances. When
13:02
Speaker 1: he says that, I'm so proud of my children they
13:05
Speaker 1: just turned thirteen, doctor Jenn, and they all look at
13:07
Speaker 1: each other and it's not a secret. I give him
13:10
Speaker 1: a lot of grief about it, but it happens. He
13:13
Speaker 1: brags he does not know how to use the ATEN.
13:17
Speaker 1: I give him fifty cents and tell him to go
13:18
Speaker 1: buy some candy. Really, so okay, doctor Jen, that's the
13:21
Speaker 1: first thing. But Shela Jim Shellena, twenty seven years Metro
13:26
Speaker 1: Major Case Now lawyer, life insurance policy. Did you hear that?
13:31
Speaker 1: It was like a siren blaring in my ear? Yeah,
13:34
Speaker 1: life insurance policies on the children and the wife, So yeah,
13:38
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, motive honestly is you know, doesn't
13:40
Speaker 1: have to be proven in a case. But when you
13:42
Speaker 1: have a case like this where somebody saying, oh I
13:44
Speaker 1: didn't mean to do it or it was sleepwalking, being
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Speaker 1: able to show a potential motive like this is huge.
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Speaker 1: You're in a financial dispair, you're about to lose everything.
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Speaker 1: There is a way for you to get this money,
13:58
Speaker 1: and it's through a life insurance Paul, I think that
14:01
Speaker 1: goes a long way towards helping a jury make a
14:03
Speaker 1: decision at least if this irrational jury. And to you
14:06
Speaker 1: medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, doctor Tim Gallagher,
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Speaker 1: right in your back yard in the shadows of Disney.
14:14
Speaker 1: I don't know if you recall this over in celebration
14:18
Speaker 1: where the father was going under with all of his businesses.
14:22
Speaker 1: He was committing fraud on the government for like one
14:25
Speaker 1: of those muscle rehab places where after you are injured
14:30
Speaker 1: you're supposed to get rehabbed. He was cheating the government
14:33
Speaker 1: like nobody's business. They found out, everything started going down, down, down.
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Speaker 1: He drove straight down to Celebration, Florida and murdered his
14:42
Speaker 1: wife and children rather than anybody find out they're all
14:47
Speaker 1: going bust. This is not a knee story, doctor Gallagher.
14:51
Speaker 1: Remember that's case. It was recessed. Oh absolutely, And if
14:54
Speaker 1: anyone has been a celebration, it's a very high exclusive
14:57
Speaker 1: neighborhood in the Disney area where how is there millions
15:00
Speaker 1: and millions of dollars each and of course image would
15:04
Speaker 1: be one of the main pressing factors there. If you're
15:07
Speaker 1: going to live, you know, doctor Gallagher, I got myself
15:10
Speaker 1: and the children and my husband all in the car
15:13
Speaker 1: on a vacation. I had an underlying motive. I went
15:17
Speaker 1: down there to see this location and see and it's
15:23
Speaker 1: exactly as you just said. That's what we call where
15:26
Speaker 1: I come from, living high on the hog, way too
15:30
Speaker 1: high on the hog. And then when it all started
15:32
Speaker 1: falling apart, it was better to kill his family than
15:36
Speaker 1: admit financial ruin. I want to go back to a
15:39
Speaker 1: special guest, doctor Mark R. Pressman. Doctor Pressman, I want
15:44
Speaker 1: you to take a listen to our cut number nine.
15:46
Speaker 1: This is Ariel Clay at w R A L. Christine
15:50
Speaker 1: Pirolini broke down when recalling the night her four year
15:53
Speaker 1: old son was suffocated, and I was scared to touch
15:55
Speaker 1: him first because he didn't look great. Intosh's he didn't
16:03
Speaker 1: have a February Joseph Mitchell's attorneys say he was sleepwalking
16:06
Speaker 1: the night of the incident, and question Pierrolini about trouble
16:09
Speaker 1: Mitchell had at night before Blake's death, including one time
16:12
Speaker 1: when he reared back to hit her. Believe so interesting
16:20
Speaker 1: to you, doctor Pressman, the only time he had. He
16:24
Speaker 1: has these episodes where he commits X in his sleep
16:28
Speaker 1: they're always domestic violence. You don't think that's a coincidence, Well,
16:34
Speaker 1: it certainly could be. My approach is very different. I
16:37
Speaker 1: want to know whether his behaviors that night are consistent
16:42
Speaker 1: with what we know sleepwalkers can or cannot do. And
16:47
Speaker 1: so typically sleepwalking violence, the sleepwalker does not go to
16:53
Speaker 1: the victim. You know, all this sort of cartoonish stuff
16:56
Speaker 1: about the sleepwalker walking with his arms out and to
17:00
Speaker 1: be a knife in his hand and you know, yelling kill, kill,
17:03
Speaker 1: kill while he looks for revenge or something. That doesn't happen.
17:08
Speaker 1: In almost all of the cases of sleepwalking violence, the
17:11
Speaker 1: victim actually comes to the sleepwalker. Fleepwalkers up and about
17:16
Speaker 1: and the victim basically tries to get them to turn around,
17:21
Speaker 1: or they block them, or they do something and they
17:24
Speaker 1: accidentally trigger sleepwalking violence, which is actually defensive because the
17:31
Speaker 1: sleepwalker doesn't recognize fleepwalker can't recognize faces, They don't know
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Speaker 1: who this person is. This person is just a potential
17:41
Speaker 1: a potential threat that they have to deal with on
17:44
Speaker 1: a very primitive level. And also there are no reported
17:49
Speaker 1: cases ever a violence of more than one person at
17:54
Speaker 1: a time. So the fact that he came into the room.
17:58
Speaker 1: Very unusual and and abnormal in the fact that there
18:03
Speaker 1: are three victims all at the same time has never
18:07
Speaker 1: been reported and is not consistent with what we know
18:10
Speaker 1: about sweet and Coincidentally, although I couldn't get you to
18:13
Speaker 1: commit to a coincidence, very wise of you, doctor. Coincidentally,
18:17
Speaker 1: there were three life insurance policies as well. Okay, doctor, pressman,
18:23
Speaker 1: I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay
18:25
Speaker 1: down for this. Let's hear cut ten. This is tamer
18:28
Speaker 1: gives ABC eleven. The jurors we spoke with are so
18:31
Speaker 1: concerned about the public's reaction to their verdict that they
18:34
Speaker 1: asked to remain anonymous, and they tell us if manslaughter
18:38
Speaker 1: had been on the table, Joseph Mitchell would still be
18:41
Speaker 1: in jail. On one side of the courtroom, a relieve defendant,
18:45
Speaker 1: on the other, a grieving mother, and inside the jury
18:48
Speaker 1: box twelve conflicted men and women. It was the reasonable
18:52
Speaker 1: doubt that that gotten as men all this jur who
18:56
Speaker 1: asked us not to reveal her name or show her face,
18:59
Speaker 1: says a nitial. There were a few holdoubts, but ultimately
19:02
Speaker 1: the panel agreed Joseph Mitchell did not act with malice, intent,
19:07
Speaker 1: or premeditation that's required for a first second degree murder conviction.
19:12
Speaker 1: Our justice system failed this family. I don't think the
19:16
Speaker 1: jury failed. I think we made the decision we had
19:20
Speaker 1: to make based on the laws and the instructions we
19:22
Speaker 1: were given. Well, they can tell themselves that when they
19:25
Speaker 1: try to put their head on the pillow. To you,
19:27
Speaker 1: sel McCollum, you know when a jury or a jr.
19:33
Speaker 1: Has to hide their face when they leave the courthouse,
19:36
Speaker 1: when they don't want their name known, they know they
19:39
Speaker 1: did the wrong thing. Here's what drives me crazy about
19:42
Speaker 1: what she said. She doesn't believe her own verdict. Why
19:46
Speaker 1: in the world would you say there's reasonable doubt when
19:49
Speaker 1: there's not with you? That's insane to me. This guy
19:54
Speaker 1: did not go to bed with a mask and a knife.
19:57
Speaker 1: He waited until the wife was asleep, and by the
20:00
Speaker 1: house of sleep he went and attacked two children and
20:04
Speaker 1: then fled after the murder, locking himself in a room
20:08
Speaker 1: for self protection, and then claimed, oh, I didn't know
20:12
Speaker 1: what I was doing. I was sleepwalking. And my question
20:15
Speaker 1: for that is had he ever sleepwalked before? Had he
20:18
Speaker 1: sought medical help for it? What steps did he take
20:21
Speaker 1: to prevent this. I bet nothing because it was pre planned.
20:27
Speaker 1: I bet nothing because there was no previous sleep walking
20:32
Speaker 1: problem unless he tried to pull one over on his wife.
20:37
Speaker 1: And for ten on an earlier occasion, he had been sleepwalking.
20:53
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you that
20:57
Speaker 1: did not hear it, the jury down this guy not guilty.
21:03
Speaker 1: Blake Mitchell, the little boy who lost his life just
21:08
Speaker 1: four years old. His dad Joseph Anthony Mitchell fifty there
21:13
Speaker 1: in Durham, North Carolina, has walked free. But that's really
21:19
Speaker 1: just the tip of the iceberg, you know. And I
21:21
Speaker 1: want to go back out to you. James Shellnutt, twenty
21:25
Speaker 1: seven years Metro Major case law Enforcement now lawyer. James.
21:31
Speaker 1: The judge specifically instructs the jury in every single criminal
21:36
Speaker 1: felony case, you are to use and apply your common sense,
21:43
Speaker 1: almost verbatim, and you are to reach a verdict to
21:49
Speaker 1: a moral and reasonable certainty, moral and reasonable certainty, reasonable head,
21:58
Speaker 1: moral heart. In other words, if you believe it. If
22:03
Speaker 1: you believe he did this thing, then the state has
22:07
Speaker 1: carried their burden. Yes or no, shall not? Oh? I agree,
22:12
Speaker 1: And you know I find it odd for this jury
22:15
Speaker 1: to say, well, if manslaughter would have been on the table,
22:18
Speaker 1: then he wouldn't have left the courthouse. He'd went to jail.
22:21
Speaker 1: You know, malice of forethought can be formed in the
22:24
Speaker 1: blink of an eye. It doesn't take days or weeks
22:28
Speaker 1: or hours of planning. It can happen in an instant
22:31
Speaker 1: and quite frankly, sometimes you just get bad juries. You
22:36
Speaker 1: get bad juries that don't use common sense. You get
22:39
Speaker 1: bad juries that may not understand what they're doing, and
22:42
Speaker 1: you get bad juries that sometimes they're anti police, anti prosecution,
22:46
Speaker 1: And it just seems like this was a bad jury
22:50
Speaker 1: that made a bad decision on a case where a
22:53
Speaker 1: man should have been convicted of murder. This jury, reeks, guys,
22:58
Speaker 1: that was in North Carolina. Let's cross a country to Phoenix, Arizona.
23:02
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut one. This is Brianna Whitney.
23:06
Speaker 1: Just heard her kneeling and you could hear her rolling
23:08
Speaker 1: around in the rocks. Scott Phalater's next door neighbors jolted
23:11
Speaker 1: away everyone outside to see if we could hear if
23:13
Speaker 1: somebody needed help or something, and then the screaming quit.
23:20
Speaker 1: Police got to the house to find Phalater waiting for them.
23:23
Speaker 1: His wife Yarmila dead in the pool forty four stab
23:27
Speaker 1: wounds to her body. Phalater told them he had been
23:30
Speaker 1: sleepwalking and couldn't remember anything, but the next door neighbor
23:34
Speaker 1: told police he watched Phalater stab his wife, drag her
23:38
Speaker 1: to the pool, hold her head underwater, and then quieting
23:42
Speaker 1: the dog, going up the stairs, turning on a light,
23:45
Speaker 1: taking clothes off, going down to the garage, getting things
23:48
Speaker 1: out of the garage. He dashed the bloody knife and
23:50
Speaker 1: his bloody clothes in his car, all while his twelve
23:53
Speaker 1: and fifteen year old children were asleep in the house.
23:57
Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends there at True Crime Arizona. Another
24:00
Speaker 1: sleepwalking murder. Okay, guys, forty four stab wounds. Take a
24:08
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Inside Edition our cut too.
24:11
Speaker 1: It was a murder that shocked the nation. The notorious
24:14
Speaker 1: sleepwalking killer Scott later stabbed his wife forty four times,
24:18
Speaker 1: then drowned her in the pool. His defense, he was sleepwalking.
24:24
Speaker 1: I breathed the fight. When Phoenix cops got there, they
24:30
Speaker 1: found Falter at the top of the stairs in his pajamas.
24:33
Speaker 1: He made remarks to the stead of what's going on?
24:36
Speaker 1: What are you doing in my house? That is all
24:39
Speaker 1: about Scott Later. Let me go back to Chrissy miss Uri,
24:43
Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning investigative reporter, what happened in Arizona. It
24:48
Speaker 1: depends on what tale you want to believe, whether you
24:50
Speaker 1: want to believe Scott Later or the neighbors that watched
24:55
Speaker 1: a methodical murderer in action. You know, as as the
25:00
Speaker 1: US start with the neighbors, Christie right, so they hear
25:04
Speaker 1: some noises in the neighbor's backyard and look over the
25:08
Speaker 1: fence to find your milla create a laying on the
25:13
Speaker 1: ground that they watched Scott walk very calmly back into
25:19
Speaker 1: the house and is mentioned in the clip you know,
25:22
Speaker 1: turn lights off and on as he's making his way
25:24
Speaker 1: through the house changing clothes. But one detail that came
25:29
Speaker 1: out in testimony is that Greg Coon's the neighbor watched
25:34
Speaker 1: Scott's Philater don a pair of gloves before he comes
25:39
Speaker 1: back outside and drags his body his wife's bodies over
25:44
Speaker 1: to the pool and drowns her. The very critical fact
25:49
Speaker 1: removes the gloves, takes off his clothes, puts him in
25:53
Speaker 1: a tupperware container along with the bloody knife. When the
25:56
Speaker 1: cops show up, he's standing at the top of the
25:59
Speaker 1: stairs with a crisp white T shirt eye. Okay, Cheryl McCallum,
26:03
Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert jump
26:07
Speaker 1: in feet first, premeditation Again, everything he did after the
26:13
Speaker 1: murder was to save himself. So you're talking about a
26:18
Speaker 1: calculated I've got to have gloves. I've got a drown
26:21
Speaker 1: her to make sure she's dead, because she's not dead
26:23
Speaker 1: from the stab wounds. Now I've got to hide the
26:25
Speaker 1: clothes that I was wearing when I committed the crime.
26:27
Speaker 1: I'm going to change clothes so I looked fresh and clean,
26:30
Speaker 1: so they'll never suspect me. This is not somebody out
26:33
Speaker 1: of it asleep that doesn't know what they're doing. These
26:36
Speaker 1: are criminals acting out crimes we see every day the
26:41
Speaker 1: exact same way. I mean, don't you think doctor Tim
26:44
Speaker 1: Gallagher that after forty four stabs, the jarring of the stabs,
26:51
Speaker 1: crunching through bone, cartilage, tendons, muscle, human organs would have
26:58
Speaker 1: woken him up? Well, you know, my patients really are
27:04
Speaker 1: not you know, alive. But I would think that by
27:08
Speaker 1: using common sense, which all of us on the panel have,
27:11
Speaker 1: that yes, one stab when one poke, even a poke
27:15
Speaker 1: in the eye, roke or a sharp poke in the
27:17
Speaker 1: chest would wake me up, certainly, forty four stab wounds
27:20
Speaker 1: wouldn't wake me. No, I mean the defendant, the husband,
27:24
Speaker 1: the jarring motion of forty four stabs, dragging your wife
27:30
Speaker 1: around changing clothes, and then when the police to get there,
27:34
Speaker 1: you're like, what happened? I mean to doctor Mark Pressman,
27:39
Speaker 1: joining us, author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable scientific Evidence,
27:43
Speaker 1: I must make a confession. My nephew a real brainiac,
27:50
Speaker 1: and as a child, would sleepwalk. And I remember one episode.
27:59
Speaker 1: We went all went to Jackson Hall, Wyoming for my parents'
28:04
Speaker 1: fiftieth wedding anniversary, and that night my nephew was sleeping
28:12
Speaker 1: in the room with me and I heard the door
28:15
Speaker 1: opening and I looked up and immediately sprung up. This
28:20
Speaker 1: is when I was still a prosecutor. I ran out
28:23
Speaker 1: in the hall and there is my little nephew, maybe
28:27
Speaker 1: nine years old, walking down the hall, and I called
28:34
Speaker 1: his name, and he didn't turn around. I called his
28:37
Speaker 1: name again, he didn't turn around. I ran to him
28:41
Speaker 1: and got in front of him and grabbed him by
28:43
Speaker 1: the shoulders. He looked so afraid and he ran back
28:46
Speaker 1: to the room. Jumped in the bed and hunched up
28:51
Speaker 1: and put a pillow over his head. He was afraid
28:55
Speaker 1: he was asleep, but when I touched his shoulders, he
29:02
Speaker 1: was groggy. But he ran back to the room because
29:05
Speaker 1: he looked around in the hall and didn't understand what
29:07
Speaker 1: was happening around him. But by the time he got
29:11
Speaker 1: back to the room, he was awakened from his sleepwalking.
29:15
Speaker 1: So explain to me, you're the expert, doctor Pressman, how
29:20
Speaker 1: someone could conceivably stab their wife forty four times and
29:25
Speaker 1: claimed they were asleep. Wow. I was the prosecution expert,
29:28
Speaker 1: so I don't think he did. At trial, I presented
29:33
Speaker 1: sixty different instances of behaviors he had. This was Remember
29:38
Speaker 1: this trial was very unusual because the next door neighbor
29:41
Speaker 1: was in the backyard watching what was going on for
29:45
Speaker 1: a good twenty minutes. You know, light's going and off.
29:48
Speaker 1: That's evidence that you never have in cases like this.
29:52
Speaker 1: So the important thing to know about a real sleepwalker
29:56
Speaker 1: is real sleepwalker does not have well we go higher
30:01
Speaker 1: cognitive function. Real sleepwalker cannot form a memory, cannot retrieve
30:06
Speaker 1: a memory. A real sleepwalker cannot plan, A real sleepwalker
30:10
Speaker 1: cannot form an intent. Real sleepwalker has no social social abilities.
30:16
Speaker 1: That part of the brain that has those you know,
30:20
Speaker 1: where those abilities reside is turned off in the sleepwalker
30:25
Speaker 1: is deactivated. So if the sleepwalker does something that can
30:30
Speaker 1: only happen with that part of the brain activated, then
30:34
Speaker 1: they're not asleep. They're not sleepwalker, they're awake. Crime Stories
30:49
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, Guys, we are talking about murders committed
30:55
Speaker 1: while they defendant is allegedly asleep. You were just hearing
31:00
Speaker 1: about Scott Felder. You'll be happy to know that he
31:03
Speaker 1: was actually convicted. But I want to talk to you
31:06
Speaker 1: about another case, the case of Deborah Lazaraine to Christy Missourich,
31:13
Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning investigative reporter, President of Successful Strategies pr
31:18
Speaker 1: in Crisis Communications, tell me about the case of Deborah Lazaraine.
31:23
Speaker 1: So this is again the children are involved, and they're
31:29
Speaker 1: really the ones that kind of perpetuate the nine one
31:32
Speaker 1: one calls a Raymond Lazarine calls his son Nathan. It's
31:36
Speaker 1: the middle of the day, afternoon, urging him to come
31:40
Speaker 1: to the house. He said he's having a dream that
31:42
Speaker 1: he shot and killed his wife. It was not a dream.
31:47
Speaker 1: Nathan arrives. He finds his mother, Deborah dead on the floor,
31:52
Speaker 1: shell casing scattered all around her. She's shot a half
31:56
Speaker 1: dozen times, two shots to her head, in her back.
32:01
Speaker 1: He finds his father in the bedroom with a gun,
32:05
Speaker 1: Raymond Lazarine. When the police arrived, he tells him he
32:08
Speaker 1: doesn't know what was happening. He was dreaming. But here's
32:12
Speaker 1: the thing, you know. When the cops talked to to Nathan,
32:15
Speaker 1: Nathan said, look, my father's threatened my mom in the past.
32:18
Speaker 1: He's very controlling. We never filed a complaint, didn't know
32:22
Speaker 1: if it would rise to this, And at the time
32:25
Speaker 1: of this shooting, Raymond Lazarine was under psyched yet for
32:28
Speaker 1: care and taking prescriptions for psychotic episodes. Straight back out
32:34
Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, director of the Coal Case
32:37
Speaker 1: Research Institute, didn't O. J. Simpson have a dream that
32:43
Speaker 1: he killed Nicole Brown? I believe. So let me tell
32:46
Speaker 1: you something easy, funny, how these dreams were If it
32:49
Speaker 1: weren't so prop I guess they're all clairvoyant, Cheryl, because
32:54
Speaker 1: all these dreams come true. They do kill their wives,
32:56
Speaker 1: and they know exactly how they kill them. It wasn't
32:59
Speaker 1: like oh Man and I had a horrible dream. She
33:01
Speaker 1: fell off a cliff. No, you knew you shot her. Amazing,
33:05
Speaker 1: and you just happen to be sitting there with a
33:07
Speaker 1: weapon in your hand when your son finally shows up.
33:10
Speaker 1: I mean here, it's just baffling. And again, if it
33:13
Speaker 1: weren't so tragic, it would be laughable. The level of
33:18
Speaker 1: bs that this arises to is just unbelievable. Everybody on
33:24
Speaker 1: this panel that is married to a man knows that knows.
33:27
Speaker 1: The time they couldn't find a mask or gloves or
33:30
Speaker 1: bins or phone numbers, they always come to us, but
33:33
Speaker 1: not these much. Well that's a mop and a brand,
33:36
Speaker 1: much less a mop of a broom. But not these guys.
33:38
Speaker 1: Oh he found a Halloween mask or what Halloween? The
33:41
Speaker 1: other one has a pair of gloves sitting on ready.
33:44
Speaker 1: The other one's got bins. He could put bloody clothes
33:47
Speaker 1: in garbage. It's complete, garbage, complete. I can't believe juries
33:52
Speaker 1: are falling for this guys. We're talking about the case
33:55
Speaker 1: of Raymond Lazarine his wife Deborah Lazarine. Take a listen
34:00
Speaker 1: to our cut thirteen Kaylee harteng at ABC's America This Morning.
34:05
Speaker 1: This Morning, an unusual murder trial is underway in Texas
34:08
Speaker 1: for a man who blames his sleepwalking for the death
34:11
Speaker 1: of his wife. In December twenty thirteen, Raymond Lazarine called
34:14
Speaker 1: his son and told him he had just had a
34:16
Speaker 1: dream that he shot and killed his wife of thirty
34:19
Speaker 1: five years, Deborah Lazarine. But it wasn't a dream. Lazarine
34:23
Speaker 1: admits he shot Deborah half a dozen times. He claims
34:27
Speaker 1: it was involuntary on account that he was asleep. There
34:30
Speaker 1: are other witnesses over there that have seen the manifestation
34:34
Speaker 1: of a sleep disorder, and we thought that would be
34:37
Speaker 1: important for the jury. Tonne joining me special guest doctor
34:40
Speaker 1: Mark R. Pressman, author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable
34:45
Speaker 1: Scientific Evidence, and an expert witness in the case against
34:50
Speaker 1: Raymond Lazarine. What can you tell us, doctor, Well, first
34:54
Speaker 1: of all, they got it a little bit wrong. It
34:58
Speaker 1: actually was not a sleepwalking defense. It was a disorder
35:02
Speaker 1: that may appear externally very similar, but is even rarer
35:08
Speaker 1: and actually scarier. It's called rem behavior disorder RAM is
35:14
Speaker 1: rapid eye movement sleep. Most people are where that's the
35:18
Speaker 1: kind of sleep when you typically have your vivid dreaming
35:22
Speaker 1: and okay, wait a minute, let me understand how finally
35:26
Speaker 1: you're splitting this hair. You're saying, this is not a
35:31
Speaker 1: sleepwalking defense. This is an M defense. You have ri
35:36
Speaker 1: em rapid eye movement. So everyone has when you're asleep,
35:40
Speaker 1: everyone has REM sleep. And what brief he is saying
35:45
Speaker 1: he was asleep when he killed him. He's claiming he
35:48
Speaker 1: was in REM sleep at the time. And there's one
35:51
Speaker 1: Could you tell me what difference does that make he
35:54
Speaker 1: was asleep when he did it. It's there's an enormous
35:57
Speaker 1: difference in why it occurs and what kind the behaviors
36:01
Speaker 1: someone who has M behavior disorder can have. One of
36:07
Speaker 1: the least known things about normal REM sleep is that
36:10
Speaker 1: people who are or are dreaming are unable to move
36:14
Speaker 1: okay for all intensive purposes. Everybody who has who dreams
36:19
Speaker 1: is essentially paralyzed while they dream. If you weren't paralyzed,
36:25
Speaker 1: you might be able to essentially act out your dream.
36:29
Speaker 1: And just think of the last dream you had, what
36:31
Speaker 1: would happen if you acted that out. So what he's
36:35
Speaker 1: saying is for some reason problem in the brain. That
36:39
Speaker 1: we actually know what is wrong in the brain in
36:42
Speaker 1: these cases, that the mechanism that causes the paralysis didn't work,
36:48
Speaker 1: and for some reason he got up and retrieve the
36:52
Speaker 1: gun and search for his wife, etcetera, etcetera. But none
36:57
Speaker 1: of that is possible. Yes, I'm sorry to ask you
37:00
Speaker 1: a very simple This is a yes. No, doctor in
37:05
Speaker 1: the case you must Yes, I've got you on the
37:09
Speaker 1: hot seat. You're on cross in my mind anyway. Yeah,
37:12
Speaker 1: you've been You want me to answer yes or no?
37:14
Speaker 1: I never answer or doctor Fressman. Isn't it true that,
37:18
Speaker 1: in the case of Raymond Lazarine, charged in the murder
37:22
Speaker 1: of his wife, Deborah Lazarine, in that case you were
37:26
Speaker 1: an expert witness. And isn't it true that at the
37:30
Speaker 1: time of the death of the wife Lazarine claimed he
37:36
Speaker 1: was asleep. Well, he claimed he was streaming asleep. Yes,
37:40
Speaker 1: he claimed he was in a dream when he did it. Yes, Yes,
37:44
Speaker 1: Now I understand you're saying, or I think I do. Anyway,
37:47
Speaker 1: they didn't teach me this at law school. You'd have
37:49
Speaker 1: to be an MD for this. But I think what
37:52
Speaker 1: you're saying is, let me throw this to you, doctor
37:55
Speaker 1: gen Man. The parsing of the words is splitting of
37:59
Speaker 1: the hair. Is that the defendant claim he had an
38:03
Speaker 1: RM rapid eye movement problem. But the reality is he
38:09
Speaker 1: still claims he was asleep when he murdered his wife.
38:12
Speaker 1: Are you understanding that the same way I'm understanding I am.
38:14
Speaker 1: But I don't know that this guy had a rapid
38:16
Speaker 1: eye movement problem. Might think he had a domestic violence
38:18
Speaker 1: problem because there is a history of other incidents where
38:22
Speaker 1: he was violent with his wife. And as a therapist
38:25
Speaker 1: who I don't specialize in fleet disorders, but I have
38:28
Speaker 1: a long history working with domestic violence survivors. That's what
38:33
Speaker 1: I look at. And there's an incident where his wife
38:36
Speaker 1: asked for a glass of water and next thing she knew,
38:39
Speaker 1: he was on top of her with a gun under her.
38:41
Speaker 1: Chick to you, Christie Missourich, Emmy Award winning investigative reporter.
38:48
Speaker 1: Isn't it true that this defendant, the husband, Raymond Lazzarine,
38:52
Speaker 1: had a long history of being a nasty and hateful
38:58
Speaker 1: and abusive drunk as an abusive alcoholic who regularly threatened
39:03
Speaker 1: his wife with violence. Isn't that true? According to his
39:07
Speaker 1: son Nathan, he broke down too many instances to list.
39:14
Speaker 1: The problem was they never called the police out of
39:19
Speaker 1: maybe their own personal fear. But the father would habitually
39:24
Speaker 1: pop these prescription medications and you know, slug back a
39:30
Speaker 1: couple of shots of whiskey. You know what's interesting, Cheryl McCollum.
39:32
Speaker 1: You know all the years that I prosecuted, including domestic
39:36
Speaker 1: homicides and agg assualts, and worked at the Battered Women's
39:39
Speaker 1: Center on the hotline. So often it's typically men, but
39:43
Speaker 1: it can be women to blame beating their partner on alcohol.
39:51
Speaker 1: I don't buy that. It's not the alcohol's fault. Alcohol
39:55
Speaker 1: makes you more of what you are. So when women say, oh,
40:00
Speaker 1: he's a good man when he's not drinking, the problem
40:02
Speaker 1: is he ain't never not drinking. And if you drink
40:07
Speaker 1: enough again, it heightens who you are. If you are
40:10
Speaker 1: fun and just the life of the party, the more
40:13
Speaker 1: you drink, the more fun you are. If you're just
40:16
Speaker 1: a piece of crap who's looking for a fight, as
40:18
Speaker 1: soon as you start drinking, you're just slugging the first
40:20
Speaker 1: person you see. To you, Christine, mister Rick, what happened
40:25
Speaker 1: in the case of Raymond Lazarine, You don't look he's
40:35
Speaker 1: We're all safer to have someone like that behind, you
40:37
Speaker 1: know what, And to my understanding, multiple defendants across the
40:42
Speaker 1: US have gotten off Scott Free walks, Scott Free claiming
40:48
Speaker 1: sleep disorder, sleep walking. Today we examine the case of
40:54
Speaker 1: Scott for later, who managed to slip through the fingers
40:59
Speaker 1: of Lady justice, as compared to Mitchell and Lazarine. Long
41:04
Speaker 1: story short, all of these guys, still, whether convicted or acquitted,
41:10
Speaker 1: insist they were sleepwalking. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off
41:18
Speaker 1: Goodbye friend.