Latest / Pop of Culture / S03 E19 - We Tell an Untold Story

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S03 E19 - We Tell an Untold Story · Pop of Culture

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[Michelle Kinsey]: This week on Pop of Culture,
0:17
bringing history to life.
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A new play focuses on
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the overlooked story of Oliver Sipple.
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And the pop team is what you might call exercise averse.
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What a new book explains how
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just a little motion can
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help your health. That's coming up.
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♪♪ [Jen Blackmer] From Indiana Public Radio,
1:15
this is Pop of Culture.
1:17
[Jen] I'm Jen Blackmer,.
1:18
[Michelle] And I'm Michelle Kinsey.
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Coming up, why you should
1:21
probably be listening to this show while walking.
1:24
There's a new book on the benefits of daily movement.
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But first, we have a fresh look into history.
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[Jen] In 1975, U. S. Marine Oliver Sipple
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saved President Gerald Ford
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from an assassination attempt.
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Initially hailed as a hero,
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when details of Oliver's personal life came to light,
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the story moved on without him.
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That story is now being told in
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a new play Arlington or your forgotten American hero,
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which will have its world premiere with
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American Lives Theater in Indianapolis, starting May 21.
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We have three members of the team
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with us today to discuss the show.
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First of all, Andrew Cramer,
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the playwright for Arlington
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or your forgotten American hero, Hi, Andrew.
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[Andrew Cramer] Hi, Jen. Thanks so much for having us today.
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Chris Saunders, who's the founding artistic director of
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American Lives Theater and
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is also the director of this production,
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Hi, Chris.
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[Chris Saunders] Hello, hello.
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And Chris and Andrew are veterans of Pop of Culture.
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You might remember them from season one.
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We also have Dan Nicoletta
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joining the conversation today.
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Dan is a photographer,
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photo journalist, and a gay rights activist.
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And he was friends and
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a personal friends with and
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a personal photographer for Harvey Milk.
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He has firsthand knowledge that
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directly informed this play and its development.
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Hi, Dan, welcome.
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[Dan Nicoletta] Hi, Jen.
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It's a pleasure to be here.
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We're very happy that all three
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of you could join us today.
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And, Andrew, I'm going to start
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with you as the playwright.
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Tell us a little bit about this play,
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and what inspired you to turn this story
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into a play.
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[Andrew Cramer] Yeah, absolutely.
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It's one of those stories.
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So I've lived with... Dan might chuckle because
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he's lived with it his longer life than I have.
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But I've lived with Oliver,
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who I will refer to as Billy during
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the interview as he was known to his friends.
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I've lived with Billy Sipple's story
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now for coming up on ten years,
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encountered it on a podcast while driving on the highway.
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And as I listened to the story of Billy Sipple unfold,
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I had to pull my car over,
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and I had to park on the side of the highway so
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that I could mercilessly weep
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at the revealing of
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events that surrounded our friend Billy.
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And so it was a type of story that I
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heard and could literally not stop thinking about.
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I would pitch it to family members.
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I would pitch it to friends.
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I would pitch it to theaters.
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Anyone I knew, I'd be like, "Do you guys know
4:01
the story of Oliver Sipple?".
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And
4:03
sadly, no one really did.
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And so that really told me that there
4:09
was a heart there that I needed to introduce to people.
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[Jen] Yeah, absolutely. And it's
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funny how things just occur to us.
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Oftentimes as storytellers will hear something,
4:19
and we'll be like, "Why don't more people know about this?"
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Particularly given that Billy's life
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literally intersected with President Gerald Ford.
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[Andrew] Yeah, absolutely. I mean,
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not only Gerald Ford,
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but I mean Patty Hurst and Harvey Milk.
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And I mean, I could make a list of, you know,
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San Francisco and the Bay Area in
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the 70s and 80s that was
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just this pot boiling
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of politics and art and music and theater and,
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Billy was there at the center of it,
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and, you know, it's funny you
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say it's crazy that we don't know this story.
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And I think part of Billy's story
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is intentional we don't know his story.
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I think institutionally and culturally and as a country,
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I really propose that it is intentional by
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some powers that be
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it's intentional that we don't know Billy's story.
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[Jen] And this is because he was a gay man.
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[Andrew] He was outed, essentially as a gay man.
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Yes, he was also.
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[Jen] So he was outed by this story?
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[Andrew] He was... to the press... in effect.
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He was originally from
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Detroit and comes from a large religious family,
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escaped, as I think he would say,
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to the Bay area after a few other cities,
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ended up in San Francisco,
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where he felt by his own words that he felt
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like he could live openly as a
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gay man in the gay community,
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away from his conservative family.
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And, yes, two- time marine served in Vietnam.
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Was injured, came back with a lot of demons,
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and so wanted to live a quiet life
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and happen to save
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the president's life from an assassination attempt,
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which really ruined his chance at a quiet life, right?
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[Jen] Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible.
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And again, I mean, hearing this for the first time,
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it's almost like, you know,
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Where were, where were
6:30
these facts during this time?
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So you came up with this idea for a play.
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Did you write it, or did you
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find some support first to say,
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Yeah, we would be interested in helping you do this?
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[Andrew] It's a great question, and I have to directly throw
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that over to Chris as
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the artistic director of American Live Theater and,
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you know, my working colleague.
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I pitched the story to him, and I was like, Chris,
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this is a story that I think people need to know.
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And I'm shook that people don't know it.
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I'll let him speak for himself,
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but his reaction was one that I think we both
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shared in terms of the weight of Billy's story.
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[Jen] Yeah, Chris, what did you think when you heard this?
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[Chris Saunders] I had a similar reaction to what everyone is saying.
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It is there are so many juicy parts,
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like, from a human standpoint,
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from my personal beliefs.
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And also, honestly, just from kind of
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a salacious gossipy standpoint.
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And there was so much to cling to in the story that
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I was kind of just shocked that
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it hadn't gotten more air at least in,
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like, the past ten, 15 years.
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So that was my first reaction.
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But given the mission of the theater company,
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which I founded,
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so it's kind of like what I'm interested, you know?
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Then it did seem a natural,
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no questions asked fit for us to tell the story.
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[Jen] Right. And so you and Andrew began sort of
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plotting pun intended to develop a play about this?
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[Chris] Yes, and I wanted to provide him with
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all the opportunities to develop
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it in the best possible way that he could,
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because as you know,
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Jen, I mean, writing can be a lonely thing.
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And if he wanted work with actors,
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designers, whatever would help
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him realize this story, I wanted him to have it.
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So we were able to do
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a pretty extensive development process with this.
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[Jen} Well, that's excellent. So how,
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Andrew, how did you meet Dan?
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[Andrew] I was researching. I was just
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consuming every little bit of media
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about 1975 and beyond and San Francisco and this time.
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And I was watching the Times of Harvey Milk,
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the documentary, which is an incredible documentary.
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And Dan is mentioned in the documentary.
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And I saw in the documentary that he was quite a young,
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handsome, little spry guy in that documentary.
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And I did the math.
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You know, I mean,
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that's the thing that I keep reminding myself.
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This is 50 years ago only, right?
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When we talk about history,
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it's easy to forget how right around the corner that was.
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And so I did a little bit of
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digging thanks to the Intranet,
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and I found that Dan was still alive,
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thriving, creating art, and being brilliant.
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And so I reached out to him, and I was just like, Hey,
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listen, did you know Billy?
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And he's like, Oh, yeah, I knew Billy.
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And so we just started a conversation,
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and he's been a gracious gracious supporter
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since.
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[Jen] That's excellent.
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And, Dan, what did you think you
9:30
when you were contacted by
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a playwright wanting to tell the story?
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[Dan Nicoletti] Well, you know, I was friends with
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Bill Sipple and so anything I
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can do to honor the memory of my late friend,
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we didn't spend a lot of time together,
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but we had one of those sort
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of things that you find in the homosexual community,
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which is it's instantaneous.
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And he was such a dear man that,
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yes, of course, we need to tell a story.
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I'm kind of notorious as somebody who survived AIDS
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and ended up one of the point people for Milk's legacy.
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And then the broader narrative of the LGBT journey,
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the civil rights journey of
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that community of my community.
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And so, you know,
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I've worked on theater a lot.
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I mean, I also was
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a theater crafts person from a young age.
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So it just is such a great fit to be able to
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use that art form or various films that I've
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worked on in order to advance history
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and kind of bring it to a new generation.
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[Jen] Yeah. And so, Andrew,
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what was your first conversation with Dan like?
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What did you talk about?
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What were some of the things that you
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remember from those first moments?
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[Andrew] Well, I'm sure Dan probably immediately had to
11:00
take a nap after a conversation because I was just like,
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so eager to know everything.
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Mom, one of the things
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that I think is really interesting that, you know,
11:08
Dan and Chris and I talk a lot about is
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this sort of notion of queer erasure and,
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like, the story of Billy not being known by folks.
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I joked earlier sort of sadly about it being intentional,
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and it's interesting when
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you're trying to dramatize history,
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especially when you like,
11:23
Dan does know someone
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who knew someone that you're writing about.
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This person said this, this person said that.
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It's just a lot of comparing
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and contrasting sources, right?
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And so in the spirit of dramatizing Billy's story,
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what was important to me is
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this is a way to introduce people
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to Billy's story and a way in my little way to give him,
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I think, a peaceful resting place.
11:47
For a while in his life,
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he was unable to rest because of this story.
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And so I immediately just wanted to know from
11:54
Dan the personal details about
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Billy and about Milk,
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who's also a very prominent character in the play.
12:02
You know, what's something that he can tell
12:04
me that I has not written about in a book?
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And Dan was lovely and shared photos
12:10
and stories of that time that
12:12
not many people have seen or not many people have heard.
12:14
And so that kind of personal knowledge
12:17
direct from a friend that
12:19
knew your subject is irreplaceable.
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[Jen] Absolutely, absolutely.
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And plus, the added benefit of Dan being a photographer,
12:29
I think, adds so much
12:31
to the world building that you do as a playwright.
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[Andrew] Oh, and I can't even speak highly enough.
12:38
I hope everyone listening to
12:39
the story goes and Googles Dan's work.
12:41
It's really quite startling.
12:43
I was used indivisibly on
12:45
the creation of the Milk movie with Sean Penn,
12:48
which, you know, won all the awards.
12:49
Dan was right on set, represented
12:52
in the movie by an actor, as well.
12:53
Yeah, his work is incredible.
12:55
And I think having his artistic sensibility,
12:58
along with his queer sensibility
13:00
and his historian sensibility,
13:01
we were just really lucky to have
13:03
him as a gift as a part of this process.
13:06
[Jen] Yeah. So, talk to me about your work with Harvey Milk.
13:12
You were his personal photographer.
13:15
What does that entail?
13:16
And what are some of the moments that stand
13:19
out to you about your time with Harvey?
13:22
[Dan] Well, I wasn't his personal photographer.
13:26
I think a lot of people characterized me that
13:28
way because I was, you know,
13:31
in proximity for a number of years and did
13:33
document his ascent, essentially.
13:36
I helped get him elected.
13:38
I registered voters.
13:39
I did that kind of thing. And I took
13:41
pictures all throughout that.
13:43
And so I had, like, a three year body of work
13:46
of that critical moment in his story.
13:50
And then after his partner, Scott Smith died,
13:55
who was really kind of the keeper
13:58
of the flame up to that point.
14:00
Scott died in the early 90s, I believe.
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And because we had been
14:06
doing work with a small group of people,
14:10
both preserving and disseminating Harvey's story,
14:15
the torch was passed to me in that moment.
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So whereas, as a photographer,
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I was able to be the silent sort of hovercraft
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I ended up thrust into a position of having to
14:30
actually tell the story and have my own opinion about it.
14:35
[Jen] Right. And there's a tremendous amount
14:38
of artistry that's involved in that as well
14:39
as you are sharing those important moments with us.
14:45
Chris, where are you in your process right now?
14:50
Now, obviously, you have started rehearsals
14:53
and you have the show that is opening May 21.
14:57
And what should our listeners
15:00
know about what it's like working on a new play?
15:05
[Chris} In my experience, every new play
15:07
is different and playwrights
15:09
are very different with how they want
15:12
to work on their plays. In this case,
15:15
Andrew and I knew that the story
15:17
telling needed to happen in
15:20
a theatrical way that expanded
15:23
beyond our own abilities at the table.
15:27
And what I mean is neither Andrew nor I are designers,
15:31
and we knew that if we got designers input,
15:34
it would influence the writing to some extent.
15:38
And we brought designers in
15:40
strategically two thirds into
15:42
those pre-rehearsal workshops,
15:45
and they provided some wonderful ideas about how we
15:49
could make this story be told
15:51
in a way physically from the stage.
15:54
That we wouldn't have
15:56
necessarily thought of those options.
15:58
So it was kind of it was a highly collaborative one with,
16:01
you know, the head of the table being Andrew, of course.
16:04
But a lot of people's input went into this.
16:07
[Jen] Yeah, so you're making changes as you go,
16:10
and I know Andrew will be in rehearsal with you as well,
16:13
responding to not only what
16:15
the designers are giving to the process,
16:18
but also the actors
16:19
and pretty much everybody in the room.
16:22
[Chris] Yes, yes. And just in fact, earlier today,
16:26
we talked on the phone about changes
16:28
and how many changes he was making based upon last night.
16:31
And we even had to come up with,
16:33
do we print the pages, or do we not print pages?
16:36
You know, and you just have to have these kind of, like,
16:38
tedious conversations that you don't
16:40
even imagine until you get into it.
16:42
And you're imagining writers writing on their scripts,
16:44
but then you're ding them new scripts
16:46
and you print a whole script,
16:47
and then you're just having a paper discussion.
16:49
[Jen] Oh, boy. I know.
16:50
And you just feel so bad because you love
16:52
trees, right?
16:53
[Chris] Yes, exactly. Exactly.
16:55
[Jen] What's an example...
16:57
Can you give us an example of a change that has occurred?
17:01
[Chris] Yes, yes, yes.
17:03
So, Andrew wrote in the script that it was very important
17:07
to him that the story begin
17:09
and end in Oliver's apartment,
17:11
and so that we begin with the apartment on the stage,
17:15
but then it becomes different
17:17
different locations, but then we end with it.
17:20
And so, at some point,
17:21
it occurred to me that we have
17:23
six actors and we have one chair.
17:25
And as a director, I'm like,
17:26
I don't know what I'm going to do with all these bodies.
17:29
You know, I wanted levels.
17:31
And I suggested some kind
17:33
of scaffolding or something in the back, which,
17:35
of course, I have since
17:37
learned that designers are resistant to
17:38
because everyone associates it with Rent.
17:41
[Jen] Yes, of course.
17:42
[Chris] Yes, yes, yes. And they're like, I don't want to do Rent.
17:44
But what he created,
17:47
and I don't want to give too much away, but, like,
17:49
we have these long pillars on the set.
17:53
Would you Is that a fair word, Andrew?
17:55
Would you call it a pillar panel pill?
17:57
[Andrew] Absolutely, yeah.
17:58
[]Chris] Okay. And so our set designer,
18:00
Devon Cheff he kind of gave me these ladders,
18:04
but they weren't exactly the ladders that I imagined.
18:06
But this beautiful thing happened where he
18:10
kind of informed me that in
18:12
concert with a lighting designer,
18:14
that we could have people ascend
18:16
these ladders onto a platform within this panel,
18:20
and then we could light them within there.
18:22
And so I could achieve the levels that
18:24
I wanted, but in a way that
18:26
far superseded, you know,
18:28
my basic idea of how to do
18:30
that of adding more chairs or
18:32
adding a ladder or something.
18:33
[Jen] Oh, right.
18:33
That's a perfect example of
18:35
the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, right?
18:37
You get minds together,
18:39
and they can do some incredible things.
18:42
[Jen] Yes. Andrew, talk to me about
18:45
your focus in bringing history to the stage, right?
18:50
We've talked about why this is an important story.
18:52
It's obviously been lost to history,
18:54
but what do you want audiences to get from it?
18:58
[Andrew] It's a great question.
19:01
I think about if I had learned about Oliver's story,
19:06
if I had been introduced to Billy's story in high school,
19:11
if during the time when we were covering
19:13
the 70s and I was
19:16
taught a unit on
19:17
Billy saving the president
19:19
and what happened to him afterwards,
19:21
my entire journey as a gay man would have been different.
19:25
The level of representation and processing emotions
19:31
that go along with being
19:32
closeted or fear of coming out or being seen
19:35
as useful Billy's story encompasses all of that.
19:40
He's such a complicated, amazing person.
19:44
He's a Marine, and he was injured during war,
19:47
and he's an out gay man,
19:48
and he fled from home, and
19:50
he was friends with Harvey Milk,
19:51
and he saved the president.
19:52
It's just so colorful,
19:55
a man and so lovely a man.
19:57
I didn't know that people like
20:00
that existed as Americans for real.
20:04
Until I was an adult, you know?
20:06
And that's really ponderous, right?
20:09
Think about that for a minute.
20:11
[Jen] Yeah. It very much
20:14
complicates the straightforward narrative
20:17
that we're all told, right?
20:19
And anytime I encounter a story
20:22
from history that challenges me or changes me,
20:25
I think about the big sense of,
20:30
you know, human beings living
20:32
their lives regardless of the time.
20:34
[Andfew] Yes, absolutely. And, you know,
20:36
Chris jokingly had said during
20:38
one of our collaboration meetings where he's like,
20:40
If America loves anything
20:42
more than the rise of a new hero,
20:44
they love that hero's fall even more.
20:47
And it's just so interesting to
20:50
think about in the context of the show,
20:52
and I don't want to get into that with
20:53
in terms of spoilers and all that.
20:55
[Jen] Right. Dan, what do you
20:56
hope people take away from this play?
20:59
[Dan] You know, I somehow got to
21:02
download even just as recently as
21:04
this morning that what
21:08
our country does to veterans is not
21:11
a nice thing. And so
21:15
I'm hoping that somehow that will be some of
21:18
the takeaway that this was a person who was dealing
21:21
with severe trauma of having had a military training,
21:25
and then, you know, was additionally
21:28
mistreated by the media
21:30
and the legal system and was truly a survivor,
21:36
no matter what he chose for himself personally.
21:41
And that's every man's story.
21:46
And also, you know,
21:48
it does some explaining to know that he was a veteran.
21:54
So I like that it's called Arlington,
21:57
that it talks about
21:59
his dream of being buried in Arlington,
22:02
and it's ironically opening
22:04
on the anniversary of the White Knight Riots,
22:07
which was the civil unrest that happened right
22:11
after the verdict was delivered of Harvey Milk's killer.
22:15
Mm hm. It's gonna be poignant.
22:17
I'm completely sure of that.
22:19
[Jen] Yeah, absolutely. Chris, what about you?
22:21
[Chris] Well,
22:24
I think that right now,
22:28
in this country, there's so many things I could say,
22:33
but I will limit it to this.
22:36
There's a lot of talk about right and wrong and
22:39
who is doing the right thing and how they're doing it.
22:43
And we're all part of that conversation in some way.
22:46
But I guess with Oliver's story,
22:49
the thing that's so poignant to me is that people
22:52
intentionally or unintentionally, both, I think,
22:56
tried to bring him in to their agenda,
23:00
and it damaged the human inside.
23:04
And so I just one thing of
23:07
the many things I want people to take
23:08
away is turbulent times,
23:11
they call for bold things,
23:13
but they also call for
23:14
sensitivity and just being a human to one another.
23:17
And I think that that's very
23:19
present in the trajectory of this story.
23:22
Yeah, that's an important thing for us now very much, so.
23:26
[Jen] Well, gentlemen, I cannot
23:28
thank you enough for joining us today.
23:31
Our conversation with Dan Nicoletta,
23:34
photographer, photo journalist and gay rights activist,
23:38
Andrew Cramer, playwright and
23:39
literary director at American Lives Theater,
23:42
and Chris Saunders, founding
23:44
artistic director of American Lives Theater.
23:46
We've been talking about Arlington
23:49
or Your Forgotten American Hero,
23:51
a new play written by Andrew,
23:53
which premieres at American Lives Theater
23:56
in Indianapolis beginning May 21.
23:58
Thanks to the three of you.
24:00
[All] Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Jen.
24:03
[Luke Jones] And just a note,
24:05
American Live Theater has produced Jen's work,
24:07
including in the current season.
24:09
Okay, Jen, do the out.
24:11
[Jen] You're listening to Pop of Culture from IPR. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪
24:14
♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪
24:55
[Jen] If
24:56
you listen to Pop of Culture
24:58
on your phone or another device,
25:00
you might want to turn this one up.
25:01
Manoush Zomorodi is the host of
25:03
NPR's Ted Radio Hour and the author of
25:07
a moving new book entitled
25:10
Body Electric The Hidden Health Costs of the Digital Age
25:14
and the New Science to reclaim your well being.
25:16
Manuosh welcome to Pop of Culture.
25:19
[Manoush] It's so great to be here, Jen. Thank you for having me.
25:22
[Jen] I'm excited about the book,
25:23
and the Body Electric Project started in 2023.
25:27
It was a collaboration between you and
25:29
Dr. Keith Diaz.
25:32
Yeah, it resulted in what
25:33
became known as the Body Electric challenge.
25:35
So can you explain that challenge
25:37
for our listeners who might not be familiar with it?
25:38
[Manoush] Okay, so I'm going to start with the personal challenge,
25:41
which was that I felt exhausted every day, Jen.
25:45
Like, a lot of people I
25:46
talked to that I would finish the day.
25:47
I would close my laptop.
25:49
I would feel like I had just enough energy to, like,
25:52
crawl over to the couch and
25:53
scroll on my phone or watch some Netflix.
25:56
And I was kind of tired of feeling tired,
25:58
and I couldn't understand if
26:00
I was working on a screen all day,
26:02
what was happening that was draining my energy.
26:05
You know, I'd heard, like all of us,
26:07
that sitting is the new smoking,
26:09
but I couldn't understand what it was.
26:11
Um, actually, that was happening in my body
26:13
and what the screens had to do with it.
26:16
So I was in the midst of wondering
26:17
about all that when, actually,
26:19
I heard on Morning Edition,
26:21
a report done about Dr. Keith Diaz.
26:24
So he is a physiologist
26:26
at Columbia University Medical Center,
26:28
who has sort of dedicated his life to figuring out
26:30
what is the minimum amount of
26:34
movement that the human body needs so that we don't
26:37
die an early death
26:38
because we are spending so much time sitting.
26:41
He had found in his lab that
26:43
5 minutes of gentle movement,
26:46
we are talking, not burpies or sprints strolling.
26:50
That was the ticket.
26:52
It had outsized benefits.
26:54
It slashed people's blood sugar.
26:57
I lowered their blood pressure.
26:59
It made them able to concentrate again,
27:01
and it improved their mood and energy.
27:03
And so I was like, Well, that sounds incredible.
27:07
Why aren't we all doing this?
27:09
So we put out the call, he and I,
27:11
to public radio listeners, maybe,
27:13
some people who are listening right now and. We're
27:17
we're going to, you know, throw around some science here,
27:19
join this global clinical trial.
27:22
Let's see if we can get people
27:24
moving what the effects are on
27:26
your life and how you succeed or maybe fail.
27:30
We didn't know what was going to happen.
27:33
So it turns out that of the people who
27:35
committed to taking the movement breaks,
27:37
they could do it either 5 minutes,
27:39
every half hour, every hour or every 2 hours.
27:42
82% of those who decided to really stick with it.
27:46
They did. They made it through
27:48
to the end of the two week trial.
27:50
80% of those people liked taking the breaks.
27:54
We found on average a lessening of fatigue by 25%.
27:59
People felt like they were able to concentrate again.
28:03
They felt like their mood stayed better.
28:06
They weren't as exhausted.
28:08
They had energy to walk the dog and make
28:10
dinner and be with their families
28:12
and their friends in the evenings.
28:14
It was a real game changer for people.
28:16
[Jen] Yeah, and so many people participated.
28:19
And that's really incredible.
28:21
And so the body electric challenge
28:25
exists as a podcast that you can listen to and I have.
28:29
And why a book?
28:31
What do you hope the book does
28:32
that maybe the podcast doesn't,
28:34
[Manoush] So we had the sort of high level data
28:37
at the end of the clinical trial.
28:39
But really what I've spent the last couple of years
28:42
doing is going through, you know,
28:44
we had 23,000 people sending us stories and, you know,
28:48
telling us why they
28:50
couldn't stick with the movement brakes
28:51
or what they did to make it work. So I just wanted to
28:55
that's a lot of people. That's a lot of a lot of stories.
28:58
So I just had such a great time going through and seeing,
29:01
like, what did college students
29:03
do that made it work for them?
29:05
How about people who worked in an office?
29:07
What if you worked remotely?
29:09
What if you were retired?
29:11
And what I ended up doing was putting
29:13
it into three sort of buckets.
29:15
One is, you know, young people from
29:17
little kids all the way on up until
29:19
your 20s when your brain is still changing.
29:22
Then information workers, people who
29:24
really their tool is
29:25
their brain and their ability to think straight.
29:28
And then older adults who are thinking more
29:31
about longevity and maintaining their cognitive reserves,
29:34
as well as their physical health and
29:36
sort of the best practices for each of those groups.
29:39
[Jen] Right. Now, you mentioned stories,
29:42
and stories, I think,
29:44
are key because what you've got is a bunch of science.
29:46
And so what is the relationship,
29:48
in your view, between science and storytelling?
29:51
[Manoush] Well, it's never simple, is it, right?
29:53
Like, we can say like 25%,
29:56
less fatigue on average,
29:58
but we are all special snowflakes.
30:01
Each person is I used to think, like, No, we're not.
30:04
But actually, we really are. Each person is up
30:07
against their own what they're up against all day.
30:10
Like, I have teens and elderly parents.
30:12
That's one of the reasons why I'm
30:14
on screens much of the time.
30:15
In addition to work, people,
30:17
of course, have different genetic backgrounds.
30:19
They have different physical abilities.
30:22
So I'll give you one example, Dana.
30:24
She was 42 when she had a stroke,
30:29
actually, and she did
30:30
not know what was going on in her life.
30:32
Turns out she had a genetic illness
30:35
that had built up in her arteries,
30:37
and she had been trying
30:39
to walk the dog for an hour every morning,
30:43
eat better, and nothing was
30:44
working when she heard about the study.
30:47
She ended up with the support of
30:49
her doctor doing these movement breaks,
30:50
and it just kick started something for her.
30:53
She her cholesterol levels went down.
30:57
I just texted with her last week.
30:58
She's off all of her meds.
31:00
Blood sugars in good shape.
31:02
She's off of insulin as well.
31:04
She ended up really taking her diet more seriously,
31:08
her sleep more seriously.
31:09
She has this treadmill in her office
31:12
that she gets on and takes movement breaks.
31:14
And now, actually, she's training to be a health coach.
31:17
She works in HR for a big hotel company,
31:19
and now she's going to be one of their people who
31:22
helps the employees get
31:24
more movement and wellness into their lives.
31:26
So I think, you know, we're
31:27
all on our own journey, right?
31:28
We all are up against our own demons,
31:31
but we all do want to feel good.
31:33
And I think, especially in this day and age,
31:35
just a little bit more joy and optimism,
31:38
right? Like, that's the minimum.
31:39
[Jen] Absolutely. And it's not
31:41
these movement breaks are 5 minutes, right?
31:45
We do them often during the day,
31:46
but they're only 5 minutes.
31:48
And I think I'm always fascinated by people who are like,
31:51
5 minutes really isn't that long.
31:54
[Manoush] And I think, you know, some people might
31:56
be like, Oh, 5 minutes.
31:57
But I think that was one
31:59
of the other things that we saw is that
32:01
people who took a beat
32:04
after they took a break and they thought,
32:05
you know, how do I feel compared to when I start?
32:08
Do I feel like I can think again?
32:09
Do I feel like I can focus?
32:11
Did I actually come up with
32:12
a good idea when I took my walk?
32:14
And there are biological reasons why you get
32:18
oxygenation from stimulating your leg muscles.
32:21
Our leg muscles are also crucial for
32:24
taking in the glucose out of our bloodstream.
32:27
There are sort of this mind body connection.
32:30
They are not separate.
32:31
The mind and the body work together.
32:33
And so people who sort of took
32:35
a beat noticed the changes,
32:37
and change their mindset, right?
32:40
They started to think, Oh,
32:41
I get to take a break instead of,
32:43
uh, I have to take a break.
32:45
Exactly. It made the rewards were there to
32:48
the point that bringing
32:50
movement back in their life was not seen as,
32:52
like, a chore or something to check off their list.
32:54
It was, I want to be in
32:56
the world because that is part of being human.
32:58
[Jen] Yeah. One of the surprising aspects I read
33:01
about is the change in eyesight, specifically, right?
33:06
And going outside changes your focus, right?
33:09
You can focus on the long distance,
33:11
and that actually has physical effects on your eyes.
33:14
[Manoush] Yeah, I had no idea that our eyes are
33:18
actually continue to grow into
33:20
our late 20s and our early 30s.
33:22
So if you are a young person,
33:23
or you have kids in your life,
33:25
get them off screens, not just, you know,
33:28
don't shame them, but what you want to do is
33:31
get outside and look at the horizon.
33:33
The more we tell our eyes,
33:36
Okay, you need to look at something close.
33:38
That is what is leading levels
33:40
of nearsightedness in young people,
33:43
even in children to skyrocket.
33:45
We need kids to get outside,
33:47
tell our eyes, you still need to look into the distance.
33:49
Go for a walk after dinner,
33:51
look for birds. That is one of the best
33:53
can possibly do with young people.
33:57
If you're already nearsighted,
33:58
like me, well, tough luck,
34:00
but on the other hand, we are starting to see
34:02
that perhaps serotonin gets released.
34:05
When light hits the back of our retina,
34:07
it has to be sunlight.
34:09
Those who took their movement breaks outside,
34:12
they saw extra levels of positivity.
34:14
So it's about our eyesight.
34:16
It's about our hearing top to toe.
34:19
We need to be humans out in the world,
34:22
despite the fact that innovation and technology
34:25
is making our lives so much more
34:27
efficient that we can do more and more, more and more.
34:29
It doesn't mean it's necessarily high quality.
34:32
Absolutely. Manoush, thank you so much for your time today.
34:37
What a great conversation.
34:38
Manoush Zomorodi is the author of Body Electric:
34:42
The Hidden Health Costs of the Digital Age and
34:45
New Science to Reclaim Your Well Being. It's out now.
34:49
You can also hear her Sunday afternoons as
34:51
the host of the Ted Radio Hour.
34:53
Thanks a lot, Manoush.
34:55
[Manoush] This was so fun. Loved it.
34:57
[Michelle Kinsey] Well, now that we've heard that,
35:00
don't forget you can listen to Pop of
35:02
Culture anytime with the pop podcast.
35:04
Find us on YouTube,
35:06
Apple podcast spotify or
35:07
at Indianapublic radio.org.
35:13
♪♪ ♪♪
35:30
[Jen] This is Pop of Culture. I'm Jen Blackmer.
35:32
[Michelle] And I'm Michelle Kinsey.
35:34
The Indiana Peony Festival is this Saturday, May 16.
35:38
We thought this would be a good opportunity to
35:40
listen back to our interview with Kelly McVey.
35:42
She's a co founder of the event.
35:44
Her title is now CEO of the festival,
35:47
and she spoke to Kara DuQuette in 2025.
35:51
[Kelly McVey] I grew peonies with my sisters,
35:55
maybe 15 to 20 years ago
35:57
now and fell in love with the flower.
36:01
And we sold them at farmers' markets,
36:04
and I saw how many people and
36:06
specifically Hoosiers fell in
36:09
love with the flower or not fell in love,
36:12
but they had so many memories about their,
36:16
you know, loved ones growing up and
36:18
their grandma, grandpa, mother.
36:21
And there was just so much love for the flower,
36:23
and I thought, I
36:25
can't believe we haven't celebrated this.
36:27
I didn't know at the time it was our state flower.
36:30
So educating people that and letting them know, like,
36:33
there's thousands of varieties,
36:35
and I just thought to myself,
36:37
we really need to celebrate this.
36:39
And so I put together a presentation
36:42
and carried it around with me for probably ten years,
36:46
gave it to different people and said,
36:48
Hey, what do you think about this?
36:50
You know, we have the
36:53
the Indy 500 that happens about the same time,
36:57
and the flowers are blooming.
36:59
Why don't we really capitalize on this?
37:02
So we finally, about five years ago,
37:04
got it to happen.
37:05
[Kara DuQuette] Oh, that's wonderful.
37:07
I must admit I'm one of
37:09
those Hoosiers who really grew up with beautiful peonies
37:13
in their yard and remember how they
37:16
smell and seeing the ants crawling all over them.
37:20
Could you you said there are thousands of varieties.
37:24
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
37:26
[Kelly] Yeah. So, you know,
37:28
people think there's pink,
37:30
white and red, and, you know,
37:33
my goal has been to get people to know, Oh,
37:37
I've got a coral charm in
37:39
my yard or I've got a Sarah Bernhardt,
37:42
and they're all so different.
37:44
So, you know, and this is just
37:46
kind of a brief overview of how they're different.
37:49
But you can have these full doubles
37:52
that look like huge roses.
37:55
Or you can have these singles that look
37:58
more like poppies and everything in between.
38:01
And then you have ones that we call
38:03
bombs that kind of have petals on the outside,
38:06
and then you have stamens
38:08
on the inside that kind of poof out.
38:11
And they also now breed
38:13
the tree peony with a regular herbaceous peony,
38:17
and you get what you call an ito peony.
38:19
And those are beautiful,
38:22
as well. So, I mean,
38:24
and now they have colors and yellows
38:27
and corals and pinks and reds and whites.
38:30
But there are just so many different varieties,
38:33
and our goal is to have as many varieties
38:36
in Hamilton County as
38:37
possible so people can come and see,
38:40
you know, hopefully hundreds
38:42
and then thousands of varieties.
38:44
[Kara] Wow, well, can you go into a little more detail about
38:47
the herbaceous versus the tree peony?
38:51
[Kelly] Yeah. You know,
38:53
and I will say I'm not a gardening expert,
38:56
you know, and now I'm becoming a peony expert.
38:59
But herbaceous, they die back to the ground,
39:03
so you cut them back to the ground every year,
39:06
and then they grow from the ground every year.
39:11
And that's primarily what you see around here.
39:14
But there are also tree peonies,
39:16
and they bloom earlier,
39:17
and they're a slightly bigger shrub that you
39:20
don't cut back because they don't really last in a vase.
39:24
They're not like a regular herbaceous peony,
39:26
but they feel a little bit more oriental.
39:29
But, man, they are stunning and they're
39:31
the first ones to bloom, you know?
39:34
So if you start to see ponies bloom,
39:36
the very first ones that you'll see
39:38
are probably the tree peonies.
39:40
[Kara] Wow, thank you for that.
39:42
How many varieties do you have in Hamilton County then?
39:48
[Kelly] We probably have now.
39:51
I would say, close to 50 to 100 types. I mean,
39:57
you know, nobody's asked me that,
40:00
but we try to curate new types every year,
40:03
but you have to, you know,
40:05
you have to order them in bulk quantities,
40:08
so we can't order like 100 of this variety this year,
40:12
100 of this variety.
40:13
But I will say,
40:15
where the festival started is what we call Seminary Park,
40:20
and there are actually probably
40:21
30 different varieties right there in that park.
40:24
But I would say we probably
40:27
have over 100 now that I really think about it.
40:29
So you will see a huge different variety
40:32
of them at the festival.
40:34
[Kara] Well, besides seeing all these beautiful peonies,
40:38
which sounds amazing, what else can I do at
40:40
the Peony festival?
40:41
[Kelly] Oh, gosh.
40:43
The first thing that you can do is we this year,
40:48
we have 20 different floral teams that are going to be
40:51
decorating Seminary Park and big floral displays.
40:55
So it's a great place to
40:56
just go see the different types of peonies
40:59
and see these beautiful floral displays
41:01
done by these local floral artists.
41:04
We also have all different types of vendors.
41:07
This year, we have 150 vendors,
41:09
some of them being floral,
41:10
some of them being art.
41:12
And the amount of peony art that you will see,
41:15
the amount of peony products from
41:17
t shirts to mugs to embroidery.
41:22
It's all just stunning.
41:24
So you have this beautiful,
41:26
you know, display of peony throughout the festival.
41:30
We have great food.
41:31
We're leaning into our Hoosier roots with
41:34
tenderloins and the sugar cream pie
41:36
and all that great stuff.
41:37
We have a lot of good food. There'll be music
41:41
and then as you go into town,
41:43
it's kind of like it is one big festival,
41:46
but we have two parts.
41:47
We have the festival and the festival vendors,
41:49
and now we've grown it to over probably seven blocks of,
41:55
you know, because we just had to expand.
41:57
Every year, it's just, you know,
41:59
more and more people come.
42:01
But downtown, we have what we call our brunch in Blooms,
42:04
which is a brunch and retail crawl.
42:06
So all of the businesses,
42:08
we have 60 businesses downtown that participate,
42:11
and they all have peony products from
42:13
peony painted furniture to
42:15
their windows are painted in peony. They
42:18
we also have the alleys activated
42:22
with music and peony inspired decor,
42:26
and restaurants will be serving brunch and cocktails.
42:30
And so it is a huge celebration of peony,
42:34
not only at the festival,
42:35
but as you walk into downtown Noblesville,
42:38
and they butt up to each other.
42:39
You will, you know, it's
42:41
just a great a great day of everything peony.
42:45
If you like peonies, you got to come.
42:47
[Kara] Yes, it sounds amazing.
42:49
I like that you were talking about
42:51
the different scents and all the colors.
42:53
And when you say you activate the alleys,
42:55
so it's seven blocks of pure festival.
42:59
Is that what I'm hearing?
43:01
[Kelly] Yep, yep.
43:03
[Kara] Nice. Well, where would I get tickets to this festival?
43:07
[Kelly] Actually, the festival itself is open to the public.
43:10
So you just need to go
43:13
to Indianapeonyfestival.com to learn more.
43:16
It's 10-4 o'clock.
43:19
We have shuttles that can shovel you in from
43:22
different parking lots surrounding,
43:25
you know, Noblesville.
43:26
But there's
43:27
different parking garages downtown Noblesville,
43:30
too, you can park in or side streets.
43:32
[Kara] Well, I need to ask you,
43:34
what's your favorite part of the festival or has
43:36
it changed over time?
43:37
[Kelly] You know, um,
43:40
this is something I didn't mention earlier,
43:42
and it's probably the most simple part of the festival,
43:45
and it's what I like most
43:47
is we have a Peony Stem contest,
43:50
and people can bring the peonies
43:53
from their gardens into the festival.
43:55
You bring one Peony stem,
43:57
and we showcase them all day 10-2.
44:01
And you can, you know,
44:03
then festival goers can come see, you know,
44:06
just tons of different varieties because they're seeing
44:09
them from everybody's gardens and old world types.
44:12
And then we have judges that vote on the Best Peony,
44:16
and I will say that is my
44:17
very favorite part of the festival.
44:20
[Michelle] That was part of our interview with Kelly McVey,
44:22
co founder and now CEO of the Indiana Peony Festival.
44:27
This year's festival is Saturday, May 16.
44:30
Now it's time for the other events
44:32
happening in East Central Indiana.
44:34
You still have some time to check out
44:37
the in focus exhibition at the Anderson Museum of Art.
44:41
The exhibit featuring the photography of
44:43
several area artists is
44:45
on display through the end of the month.
44:47
[Jen] Michelle, would you like some Wensleydale?
44:51
Wallace and Grommit. Get cracking.
44:54
Open Saturday May 16. I can't do the accent.
44:57
At Minnetrista Museum and Gardens,
44:59
designed for children ages three
45:00
through nine and their families,
45:02
this immersive exhibition is
45:04
full of fun and problem solving.
45:07
You can interact with clever contraptions,
45:09
explore colorful environments,
45:11
and engage with hands on learning in English and Spanish,
45:15
and maybe take a trip to the moon.
45:17
[Michelle] Yeah, you're kind of a fan. Amazing
45:19
[Jen] A little bit.
45:20
[Michelle] Yeah, I got that vibe.
45:21
Art in Bloom is
45:23
May 16 and 17th at the David Owsley Museum of Art.
45:27
This is an annual celebration of DOMA featuring
45:30
floral interpretations of museum pieces
45:33
created by regional floral designers.
45:35
A public preview party reception
45:37
is Friday May 15 from 5:00 to
45:40
7:00 P.M. bsu.edu/doma for more info.
45:45
Muncie Ballet will present
45:47
Oz the Ballet at 2:00 P.M. Saturday,
45:50
May 16 at Cornerstone Center for the Arts.
45:53
Oz the ballet is filled with dancing,
45:56
a rainbow of costumes,
45:57
and, of course, joyful children.
45:59
The show is designed for children, families,
46:02
and the young at heart somewhere over the rainbow.
46:04
Yes. Muncieballet.org has all the details.
46:08
[Michelle] Muncie Civics Youth Education Encore Program
46:12
will present letters
46:13
to Sala in the Casazza Family Studio Ttheater
46:16
May 15 through the 17th.
46:18
Adapted from the book Salas Gift by Anne Kirschner.
46:22
Letters to Sala by Arlene Hutton is based on
46:25
the true story of a young girl's survival
46:28
during wartime, Germany.
46:30
[Jen] And going way back in history. Way back.
46:33
The Passion of Joan of Arc is
46:36
the Public Domain Theater feature on Wednesday,
46:38
May 20 at Cornerstone Center for the Arts.
46:41
The movie begins at 6:30
46:42
P.M. And is followed by a discussion.
46:45
This 1928 silent film
46:47
chronicles the trial of Joan of Arc through stark,
46:50
intimate close ups and
46:52
groundbreaking visual storytelling.
46:54
If you have an event
46:56
historical or otherwise, tell us all about it.
46:59
Go to indianapublicadio.org/contact
47:02
Then click Pop of Culture. ♪♪
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47:29
[Luke] Support for Pop
47:31
of culture comes from Stallings
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You may have heard about large gifts to NPR.
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Those donations are important,
47:40
but they don't bring back the funding to IPR.
47:43
Your support pays for the programs you rely on,
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especially local programs like this one,
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and the people like me who create them.
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Pop of culture exists for you and because of you.
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Give today at Indianapublic radio.org.
48:00
[Michelle] And that's our show. Our director of
48:03
audio operations is Sean Ashcraft.
48:05
[Jen] This week was produced by Luke Jones,
48:08
who was just voluntold to
48:09
become captain of the Pop Walking team.
48:12
We had production assistant from Andrew Montevon.
48:15
Our audio fellow is Maya Doss.
48:17
Our show was hosted by me,
48:19
Jen Blackmer and me, Michelle Kinsey.
48:22
Pop of Culture is a production from
48:24
IPR on the campus of Ball State University. ♪♪