Latest / Divorce Dialogues / Andrew O'Brien on Why Divorced Dads Need Community
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- Andrew O'Brien (00:00): I think the biggest lie we tell ourselves is if our families, if our kids are happy, I'm happy. And I don't believe that at all. I believe if you're sacrificing your happiness for any reason, your children can't be happy and they know. They know if you're unhappy. And I think the way that I handle it with my children is I'm very forward. I never want to protect my children from the real world. My daughters, I want them to understand what I'm experiencing and going through as a man and with my sons, I want them to understand from the man's perspective of what I'm going through, to create empathy for my daughters and to create preparedness for my sons. Katherine Miller (00:40): Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Katherine Miller. This is where we have honest, thoughtful conversations about divorce, the emotional, financial, legal, and family questions no one prepares you for. From deciding whether to separate to navigating the process with dignity to rebuilding what comes next, Divorce Dialogues is here to help you find clarity, perspective, and a better way forward. One of the things that I think that we do not talk about enough in divorce is loneliness, not just being alone, but the loss of the structure, identity and connection that can happen when a family changes. And for many fathers, that transition can be particularly isolating because while there's often a lot of focus on the legal process, certainly the finances, the parenting schedule and a lot of that external stuff, there's a whole lot less conversation about what happens emotionally and particularly emotionally for men during and after divorce. (01:49): There's a lot of uncertainty, shame, a loss of community, particularly if the social community was developed by the woman in that situation. The feeling that these guys are supposed to just figure it out on their own. And when people are so isolated, it becomes so much harder to stay grounded to parent well and to navigate conflict in a healthy way. So what this conversation is really about is the role that connection plays in helping fathers move through the divorce differently, not just surviving their process, but becoming more supported, more engaged, and more intentional in the way that they move forward. And my guest today, Andrew O'Brien, has built a community centered around exactly that idea. Andrew is the founder of Dad Tribes, a community dedicated to helping fathers build meaningful connections, find support and thrive through life's challenges. And through his work, Andrew has seen firsthand how community can transform the divorce experience for dads, helping them move from survival mode to becoming more present fathers, healthier partners, and stronger versions of themselves. (03:01): And today we're talking about why connection matters, what fathers often struggle with after divorce and how finding your tribe can change anything. Welcome Andrew O'Brien. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Andrew O'Brien (03:14): I'm excited to be on here. I really appreciate you inviting me. Katherine Miller (03:17): Yeah. And because we talk a lot on this show to women about women's issues and I think women are just much more, maybe I don't mean to be stereotypical about this, but more willing to put that out there and more comfortable and familiar talking about it. But before we get into the details of that, for listeners who might not be familiar with what Dad Tribes is, could you let us know what it is and also what inspired you to create it? Andrew O'Brien (03:42): Yeah. So we are the fastest growing dad community in the world powered by a mobile app. Like you were saying in the beginning here, guys aren't great at socializing. A lot of times it's the wife or the mother of the family, the relationship that's bringing the friends to the relationship. Guys just don't do that as easily. And so we built a community, a place for dads to be able to find friends again. A lot of us get stuck in this home and work environments. We focus on home and we focus at work, but we kind of lose a social life. We don't really have on. And I noticed that I have six kids myself, so I have a very busy, very busy life. And I realized after I got out of the military, I miss having camaraderie and friendships and relationships and that just doesn't exist, especially as you get older and you have a family, it just kind of disappears. (04:36): So we built that to solve that problem. It's an app where guys can log in, they can set their location and they can filter and find other dads that live near them with similar age kids and similar hobbies and interests. So if I'm a dad that likes to golf, I can pin myself on the map and I can filter that map and find other dads that like to golf that have similar age kids because I want to be surrounded by guys in the same season. Hanging out with guys that have kids in their 20s doesn't make sense for me. Now I have a wide range, two to 17, so it's a little bit wider of a range than a lot of people, but it gives them that opportunity to build that relationship and that connection. Katherine Miller (05:12): Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And you talk about getting out of the military and that I think is reminiscent for all of us, for everyone listening, that kind of institution creates proximity really. And in that proximity and shared experience, it's easier to develop friendships than when we are not in that kind of structure. And especially when you're going through a big transition, especially if you feel some kind of embarrassment or shame or, I don't know, sort of guilt about it, then I think that can be really, really challenging for men and for women. So Andrew O'Brien, divorce is often disruptive of a man's identity in ways in which I don't think people really appreciate. And I'm just wondering from your perspective, since you talked to a lot of dads, what changes do you think that father struggle with most after separation? Andrew O'Brien (06:08): Well, I'm going to speak from the first person situation myself. So I'm going through a separation right now. I'm not legally married to the mother of my children. We've been together for 13 years. We've made a lot of children together, but we never got legally married. But I am going through that separation. I just moved into this house on Saturday about three, four days ago. And when you're a dad going through that separation, the divorce, you give up everything. Oftentimes, I don't mean anything I say to come out as I'm for one side more than the other. I'm just speaking from a man's perspective being a man myself and going through that situation. I gave up everything. She kept the house. She has the nicest car. She has all the furniture. I moved out. Everything I owned could fit into a minivan. I have no furniture. (06:57): I have nothing. I have the clothes that were in my closet and my computer and work stuff for my business. But outside of that, there's nothing else. Right now, I'm sitting in an empty four bedroom home waiting for furniture to be delivered. And again, I have six kids. So I went from constant chaos and noise and you get used to it. You think you want a break, you get a break and it's nice for a minute, but then you miss the chaos. You miss the sounds, you miss the little feet pattering on the wood floor. You start to get really lonely and miss your children when they're not with you. And I think that's a lot of what men struggle with. It's a huge transition because they literally have to restart from the ground up. They own nothing. They have nothing and they're rebuilding a whole life. (07:43): And from my side, I made the decision to leave the relationship, which I know a lot of times based on my research, oftentimes it's the woman that files for divorce more often than the man does, but I went the opposite direction. I chose to leave my relationship out of the fact that there was a lifestyle that I wanted that didn't coincide with the lifestyle that the mother of my children wanted. And then you have the guilt of that. A lot of dads will stick in relationships they know they shouldn't be in out of the fear of being a part-time father. And so men are very welcome and very happy to give up their happiness and to sacrifice their happiness to maintain a full-time father role. And I think that's what I've seen a lot in the fatherhood community. Katherine Miller (08:27): Yeah. I think I read somewhere that the average woman who chooses divorce thinks about it for four years before taking an action. The average man, 10 years of waiting in what could be a really, really uncomfortable relationship. So Andrew, I know that you've worked through with hundreds of fathers through the dad tribe's community and the app. What do you think that some of the emotional struggles that men experience most during divorce that are often hidden from the outside world? I think the Andrew O'Brien (09:00): Biggest struggle is isolation. I think that there's this macho man societal standard and I don't even know where it came from. And we had this conversation a lot with our men is I don't know where we learned it, but the idea is to be a strong man, you don't share your feelings, you handle everything by yourself and you don't burden people with your emotions. And oftentimes that's how we feel, that our emotions are a burden, that our needs are a burden and that we feel selfish when we start discussing what we want or what we desire or what we need because as a father, that shouldn't matter. All that matters is, is my wife happy? Are my kids happy? Then I'll be happy. And I think that's a false mindset. I think it's one that I would love to believe in myself, but I tried to believe that for 13 years, staying in a relationship I knew I didn't want to be in and it's not because of her, it's just a lifestyle difference. (09:58): She wanted to live in the country. I wanted to live in the city. She likes being out in the middle of nowhere. I'm too fast-paced and I want to surround my kids in an environment that encourages ambition and excitement and education and a better future. And I sacrificed everything I wanted as a father for my children, everything I wanted to provide for them because I wanted to make my wife happy and I wanted her to have the lifestyle she always desired. And as a man, my job is to give her that life and to give her everything she ever wanted. And I think that's where a lot of men struggle is that isolation that they have to handle everything alone because sharing feelings or emotions is a burden on everybody else. Katherine Miller (10:39): Well, Andrew, you said so much there and really I think there's a lot to unpack. Of course, there's the physical loneliness, the sense of being we were together, you were talking earlier about the pitter-patter of little feet in the hallway and that is just not there all the time. And for every parent, I think the hardest part for me certainly the hardest part of divorce was not being with my kids all the time. Now there are some advantages to that too, make no mistake, but the sense that there were these forced periods of time during the week and the weekend, but over holidays and all of that, that we weren't necessarily going to always be together. I'd always assumed when I thought about having kids and then when I did have them and they were smaller. So I think that's really tough. And then you're also talking about a community that's structured around the family and however it's organized, it's often gone or substantially gone when the divorce happens. (11:38): But then this last piece that I want to talk to you about is the isolation of feeling like you have to take care of everything. And that's an isolation I think that can happen in the relationship. I think that isolation can lead to divorce, not just happen in divorce. What do you think about that? Andrew O'Brien (11:56): Yeah, I 100% agree with that. It's when you prioritize everybody else's feelings over your own and never share or put your feelings out there. And if you do, if they don't feel heard or understood, then you just stop. You feel it's a waste of time. I tried it once or twice. I didn't get the response that I would've liked. And so it just doesn't matter. And I'm just going to keep sucking it up. And I told my wife from the very beginning like, "You're never going to get rid of me. I will never leave my kids. And so outside of adultery, I would never leave." And I guess I was a liar because I wanted to believe that for the majority, I did believe that for 13 years until I just couldn't anymore. Katherine Miller (12:37): Well, I have this conversation with my kids all the time. I don't think that makes you a liar. It means you changed your mind. That's right, Andrew, you meant it. It's just that you realize, I think, tell me if I'm wrong, that as you experience life and as time passed and as whatever experiences that you had or anyone has happened and passed by, you realize that the things that you were focusing on when you made those statements were no longer true for you. Andrew O'Brien (13:08): Yeah, I think that's a good way of saying it. It's better than saying I'm a liar. Katherine Miller (13:12): Well, I don't think you are. You don't strike me as a liar. Just to really focus on the loneliness of feeling that you are responsible for everything and no one really cares about you want me. I've had clients, guys who are like, "You know what? My family treats me like an ATM." Say that thing. And that's just so painful, I think, when someone feels like the only reason that they're part of the family is to provide and support. And I think that's a very lonely feeling, don't you? Andrew O'Brien (13:45): Oh yeah, it's an extremely lonely feeling, especially as your kids get older and the only time that you actually hear from them is when they want to buy something or they need something instead of just checking in. Now, I'm lucky the younger kids aren't at that point yet. My 17-year-old is, but the younger ones haven't hit that point. They text me every day telling me that they love me, but I think as they get older, if you divorce and the kids are younger, there's a different pain because you feel like you're missing out on memory creating opportunities. Then as the kids get older, they're just less interested in you and more interested in what you can give them so they can go hang out with their friends. Katherine Miller (14:24): Divorce dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. So how do you think that loneliness affects parenting and decision-making and emotional wellbeing during the transition? Andrew O'Brien (14:53): Oh man, the emotional well-being is the hardest part. And you try to put on a face and you try to put on a smile because especially as dads, we always want to be the superhero. We always want to be Superman. We don't want to be seen as weak. And so we will put on that face, but that face is only a physical sign. It's not actually hiding anything. And our kids know when we're struggling, they know when we're lonely and it shows in the way we interact with them and the way that we interact with their mother. And so we have to find a way to surround ourselves with a community and rebuild a community in a divorce oftentimes. Having to start fresh, not just in a new house with new furniture, but also a new neighborhood, but also having to rebuild a whole social life. (15:39): And I don't think men prioritize that enough and you have to have a support system when you go through divorce. You have to. I don't think that any man that says that I don't need it, I'll do it by myself. I don't believe that. I don't believe there's a single man that does it by himself happily. Katherine Miller (15:56): Yeah. I mean, as human beings, we're hardwired for connection, man or woman. And so having that connection is just part of what it means to be human and so we all need it. So how do you, Andrew, advise your guys and any man really to begin rebuilding community after divorce? Andrew O'Brien (16:16): I'm not trying to make it sound like a pitch for the business, but that's exactly why we build dad tribes. That's why we built the app. I moved an hour and a half away from where my ex lives. And that's because we lived in a very rural area of Arkansas and there was just no four bedrooms for rent in the area and there was no city where I could give the lifestyle that I wanted for my kids within 30 minutes. So I had to move an hour and a half away. And the first thing I did as soon as I got settled on here is I changed my location in the map and I started messaging guys and introducing myself. And what I'm going to be doing on Father's Day in my city is I'm renting out an entire jumpaline place and inviting all the dads out in the area for Father's Day and I'm paying for everybody's entry f. (17:05): And I'm doing that because I want to start to build community for myself here as well. This isn't a business move for me. This is I need to recreate my social circle. I need to build a social circle and I even recreate one because I didn't even have one when I was with my wife. We just didn't have friends and I want to have friends again. I need it, but I'm just not going to go on a Facebook group and say, "Will anybody be my friend?" So I built the app to do that. And so that's what I would suggest is as you're doing that, even if it's not with dad tribes, it's finding that community, that sports league, that poker game, that cigar lounge, the country club, wherever you need to go to go do that. Because that's what I've done. Since day one, I've joined the country club here. (17:51): I'm setting up an event for local dads because I'm rebuilding a social life for me because I know that I need it. Katherine Miller (17:58): I love that you're going through this as you're also building the community because I think it really keeps it real. This works, this doesn't work. This feels good. It doesn't feel good. And obviously not everybody is you, Andrew O'Brien, you're going to have things that are good for you and that wouldn't be good for somebody else and something that's good for somebody else might not be good for you, but that you're really in it with your tribe to experience the growth of this. I really love that. And what have you learned personally and professionally, if you will, about the connection between a father's emotional health and a child's wellbeing going through the divorce process? Andrew O'Brien (18:36): I think the biggest lie we tell ourselves is if our families, if our kids are happy, I'm happy. And I don't believe that at all. I believe if you're sacrificing your happiness for any reason, your children can't be happy and they know. They know if you're unhappy. And I think the way that I handle it with my children is I'm very forward. I never want to protect my children from the real world, especially both with my daughters. I want them to understand what I'm experiencing and going through as a man and with my sons, I want them to understand from the man's perspective of what I'm going through to create empathy for my daughters and to create preparedness for my sons. And so I think we hold this idea of being a superhuman and never letting our children see the vulnerable sides of us. And I think that's a disservice to our children and to their future. (19:29): I think they need to understand when dad is sad and when he's missing them and when he's missing mom, I think that's okay even if you're not going to be together anymore. It's okay for them to know that you miss mom. And I think we try too hard to protect our children from the world. And if we don't share the mental health struggles, we're not really preparing them for their future mental health struggles with whatever they go through, whether it be divorce or life in general. Katherine Miller (19:55): Yeah. I think you're talking about sharing, not lying to them, speaking of lying, not covering, but sharing with them at an appropriate level for their age and their relationship. Not just like, "Oh, sit down here and be my best friend. Let me tell you about my new sex life." No, but that this is challenging for you too and that you're doing the best you can to figure it out with them. So what do you think are some of the most common misconception about divorced fathers that might make it harder than it has to be? Andrew O'Brien (20:26): I think the most common misconception is I think it's the animosity. One thing that I've seen, especially with divorce fathers is a lot of them will go through this trial and fibrillation where they're angry at the world and they take it out on the world, especially when it comes to the end of their relationship. They take it out during the family court case, they take it out on society. I've talked to a lot of men who are just so angry at women in general. And I think the biggest misconception is that guys are pigs, guys are hateful. I think that we don't know how to respond to emotions and the only thing that we can feel is anger. I think that comes naturally for us. I know it does for me. I'm not going to speak for everybody, but I think that was a big struggle in my relationship. (21:14): I was either excited or angry. I didn't really share or show emotions in the 20,000 other different ways that a human being can feel emotions. So I think the misconception is the animosity, the anger and the jadedness that a lot of men can feel. It can lead into negative future relationships. Katherine Miller (21:35): Something that I've noticed over years of doing this work is sometimes because it's really hard to find new friends and to fit into a new social structure with new people to talk to, sometimes guys, and mostly women don't do this, but will go back to their ex and talk to them like a friend. And sometimes it's about their dating life or whatever is going on because that's who they're used to talking with. It's been years and years that this is the person I talk to about the stuf that's going on for me and it's really hard to make that shift. So for someone who might be tempted to do that or is feeling really alone, what do you think is the first step towards finding new connection and new support? Andrew O'Brien (22:16): Yeah, it's definitely surrounding yourself with men who have also gone through divorce, whether that be a Facebook group, whether it be The Dad Tribes app, whether it be, again, the country club, there's so many opportunities where you can go and surround yourself with people that are similar to you, networking events. I mean, definitely don't go just start smelling your emotions in a random networking event, but it's an opportunity to go out there and introduce yourself. But I think the best first step is finding a guy that you can relate to because I think no matter how much that person was our everything and how much, even if it's a cordial separation and you're really trying to be friends, I know when it gets to that point, if it gets to that point to where I'm dating somebody else, that is just not something I'm ever going to share with the mother of my children because I don't want to put them in that circumstance, but I can understand the desire to because she has been my best friend and my only confidant for 13 years. (23:15): But it's finding that man that you can relate to and share with. Katherine Miller (23:20): What's one thing that you wish that every father understood before going through a divorce? Andrew O'Brien (23:24): I wish they had understood that dads are everything to everyone, but they've gotten used to feeling like they're nothing to no one. And it's a saying I say a lot. I think when men hear that, it hits because they understand exactly what I'm saying. When it comes into a divorce, I think there's a lot of men that stick in relationships and I'm not encouraging divorce. If there's a way to solve a family and keep a family together, I wholeheartedly believe that you should take that path. But I think a lot of men, when they're leading up to that decision, they're just waiting for the wife to make that decision because of the guilt and the selfishness that they would feel to make that decision. And what I would say is if you've tried everything, you've put in every effort and it's not going in the way that you want to, if you continue to sacrifice your happiness just to maintain the full-time father role, it's not going to be good for your kids, for yourself, for your wife, or for the entire family dynamic. (24:26): And that's something you need to consider. Katherine Miller (24:28): I think you could just say it's just not going to work. Andrew O'Brien (24:30): Yeah. Katherine Miller (24:31): All right. We're almost at the end of the show and I have two questions I always like to ask people. And the first one is what I think of as a reframe. I was just at my dentist yesterday and he was like, "Oh, is business busy?" And I was like, "Yeah, it is really busy." And he said, "So that's good for you, not so good for them." I was like, "No, actually it is good for them under a lot of circumstances if they're not in a good relationship." So many people see divorce as being a breaking or the end of a family. What's a healthier way to look at it? Andrew O'Brien (24:59): I think it's a way to give children two sides of views of the world. If we look at my separation going through my wife, ex- wife is country and she lives in the country and now I'm in the city and I live in the city and now my children get to experience two sides of the world that most kids would never experience. Most kids are either in the country or they're in the city and now they get to kind of experience both sides of the world and they get to see mom and dad be happy. And I think that's something that we need to prioritize when it comes into that decision is divorce isn't always a negative. It's even if mom and dad aren't together, if mom and dad are happy, more happy, separated, apart from each other, the children are going to be happy. Katherine Miller (25:44): All right. Last question, Andrew. What has surprised you the most about what fathers are capable of once they do find the right community around them? Andrew O'Brien (25:53): I don't believe in parent coaching. I have six kids and I still have no idea what I'm doing and every single kid has to be raised and spoken to and treated completely different because of the personalities. But the amazing thing that I've seen is when you watch a man walk in to an event and he hasn't had friends in a long time, he hasn't had a social circle, you can physically see the weight lift up off of his shoulders. Just walking into a cigar lounge with 10 other guys, right? It doesn't have to be a large event. It could be a small, intimate event. You can physically watch the weight of the world lift off of that man's shoulders when he surrounds himself with other men. And that's the most surprising thing that I've seen is it's not about technology, it's not about being on screens. (26:37): It's when you get physically around other men and you're able to share vulnerably and have no expectations of you or any feelings used against you, it rejuvenates their soul. Katherine Miller (26:49): Yeah, I love that. I think one of the things that you're saying is vulnerability with other people can really be a strength. Andrew O'Brien (26:56): Yeah. Katherine Miller (26:56): Well, Andrew O'Brien, thank you so much for being my guest and divorced dialects. It's been a pleasure. Andrew O'Brien (27:01): Thank you very much. Katherine Miller (27:05): I have some further reflections on my conversation with Andrew O'Brien of dad tribes and that is that I think it really is very difficult often for the dads that I've worked with through divorce and not just dads, men of all, whether or not they're dads or not, to reform community on the other side of divorce. And I think that's often because of traditional gender roles are that the mom will create the social life for the family. The mom will make the connections. It's just the way it works sometimes and whether or not that has to do with the way men's brains and women's brains work or just the situations that they find themselves in. But we talk a lot on this podcast about women and I think it's because women approach us to talk about it and not so much men and yet it is a really important thing for all people and all men and women to be able to transform their social lives, their emotional lives, their connected lives with other people and their communities so that they can feel full and whole and seen and therefore really survive and thrive on the other side of the divorce process. (28:29): And it's my observation that there seem to be less opportunities for guys than there are for gals and maybe les welcoming opportunities. Sometimes my clients say to me, "I don't know anybody else who's divorced." And I always say to them, "Oh yes, you do. You just don't know that you do because people aren't out there talking about it. " And I've also found that once my clients talk about a little bit, open up with somebody they feel reasonably close to or trusting with what's going on for them like, "Oh yeah, that happened to me. I just went through that five years ago or you need to talk to Joe or John or Tim because they're going through that too and I think you guys would really get along." And so anything like that that allows you to have that sense of, wow, I'm not alone going through this is a really useful thing. (29:21): But at the same time, one caveat, one thing to watch out for is that other people's experiences are different from your own and just because they're having an experience or they value something doesn't mean it should be your experience or that you should value the thing that they value or if they don't value what you value, that doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means that you have a different experience of it. And so I think working with Jed tribes, going to community groups, playing basketball or getting a friend to go for a walk with you because you both could use some extra exercise before or after work one day, these are all things that can help make Make the connection that is useful. Andrew talked a lot about going to a cigar bar. Nothing sounds worse to me than that, but if that's something that is interesting to you, then I totally encourage you to do that or anything that makes sense to you. (30:14): Thanks for listening. If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're navigating Divorce yourself, you'll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.