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Why Every Business Leader Needs to Understand the Psychology of Influence · Business Roundtable

0:11
Speaker 1: All right, welcome to the Business Roundtable podcast. My name
0:15
Speaker 1: is David Carr, founders Steward your Business, where we bring
0:18
Speaker 1: people together to accomplish great things. And we have a
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Speaker 1: brand new guest this week, Tara land Is from bell Rock.
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Speaker 1: We're super excited to have you here.
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Speaker 2: Tara, thank you so much for having me. David, I'm
0:26
Speaker 2: excited too.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so great you and I. What's funny, I
0:31
Speaker 1: have mutual connection with a recording recently of Jonathan Bennett
0:34
Speaker 1: on our podcast, which I know you guys are longtime
0:35
Speaker 1: friends and connections, and I'm super excited to have you here.
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Speaker 1: Another guest from up in the Great White North, I
0:43
Speaker 1: would say from those the manny folks that know strange
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Speaker 1: brew but Canada, A glad to have you here. Glad
0:50
Speaker 1: to have you here.
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Speaker 2: Thanks so much. I'll try to be really super nice.
0:56
Speaker 1: No, it's good. I love having different guests and particularly
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Speaker 1: your topic we're going to get into today about ethical influence.
1:03
Speaker 1: How do we drive results in business? And influence is
1:06
Speaker 1: so important more than ever, I feel like today because
1:09
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of people that are not credible
1:12
Speaker 1: in what they're saying, what they're showing up and people
1:16
Speaker 1: are like, Oh, I don't know if I trust that.
1:18
Speaker 1: But before we get into the meat of the meeting today,
1:21
Speaker 1: if you will our podcast episode, tell me a little
1:25
Speaker 1: bit more about bell Rock, Why you start at bell Rock,
1:27
Speaker 1: you know, in two thousand and eight, and what you're
1:29
Speaker 1: doing now.
1:30
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, thanks for asking. So I started in two
1:33
Speaker 2: thousand and eight because I'd been working with small business
1:38
Speaker 2: owners throughout North America helping them solve their problems and
1:42
Speaker 2: doing what we call deep implementation, so like embedding a
1:45
Speaker 2: consultant into their environment to help them solve whatever challenges
1:49
Speaker 2: they had. And I had my first child and came
1:53
Speaker 2: to my senses and realized I wanted to move back
1:55
Speaker 2: to Vancouver, where I'm from, and I didn't want to
1:58
Speaker 2: be on an airplane five days a week. So that's
2:00
Speaker 2: how the company got started, or why the company got started,
2:04
Speaker 2: and we once again work throughout North America after taking
2:09
Speaker 2: a brief a brief pause while I stayed home with
2:12
Speaker 2: my kid. But yeah, we focus with on smaller businesses,
2:16
Speaker 2: helping them put in foundational systems, and we also run
2:20
Speaker 2: a management training program, so we help new managers become
2:24
Speaker 2: even better managers and existing managers become the best managers ever.
2:29
Speaker 1: I love that. I feel like that's really in congruence
2:32
Speaker 1: with Steward your business. I feel the same passionate terror
2:35
Speaker 1: and we need that help to help folks transition and
2:38
Speaker 1: become better leaders. And I work with small businesses and
2:40
Speaker 1: their teams and so as as you're listening as a
2:43
Speaker 1: business owner or a leader, you know, Teara is another
2:46
Speaker 1: resource here and we love to collaborate. What I'd love
2:48
Speaker 1: to these different voices because we all need help along
2:51
Speaker 1: the way. We can go further faster when we have
2:54
Speaker 1: folks like you tar on here and helping and sharing
2:57
Speaker 1: some insights. Now you have done now you've doing this
3:00
Speaker 1: for years. You have gone and helped hundreds of graduates.
3:06
Speaker 1: You are certified with Sheldini Influence and Change Management, which
3:10
Speaker 1: is a great another one that different perspective. Again, that's
3:13
Speaker 1: why I love having you on here. Tell me you
3:16
Speaker 1: know one of the things you're seeing in the work
3:19
Speaker 1: that you're doing, because I think sometimes business owners are
3:21
Speaker 1: focusing on maybe not solving the right problems, and they're
3:24
Speaker 1: going in different areas and like, oh let's do this,
3:27
Speaker 1: let's get another system, let's buy this program and talk
3:31
Speaker 1: a little bit about you know, how do we solve
3:34
Speaker 1: the toughest problems in business and and more permanently? But
3:38
Speaker 1: where are we missing the mark as business owners?
3:41
Speaker 2: Right? I? First of all, I think that most business
3:45
Speaker 2: owners do a pretty good job. Like they're good people.
3:48
Speaker 2: They're trying hard, parts in the right place. There are some,
3:52
Speaker 2: you know, good for nothing people out there, but for
3:54
Speaker 2: the most part, most people are good people trying hard.
3:57
Speaker 2: But often, especially in small business, they haven't actually been
4:02
Speaker 2: to business school. They often learned from the school of
4:06
Speaker 2: hard knocks. They know their trade really well, perhaps but
4:11
Speaker 2: not necessarily have the business tools, and those tools, like
4:16
Speaker 2: most of the challenges that small businesses face are not unique.
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Speaker 2: Most of them we see across multiple industries and in
4:25
Speaker 2: multiple sizes of companies, similar problem, different people. Of course,
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Speaker 2: these problems have been solved before, and so I think
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Speaker 2: one of the issues that can get in the way
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Speaker 2: is just not looking for those resources or not knowing
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Speaker 2: where to look. Because it's very unusual that a problem
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Speaker 2: is unique, it's usually been solved before. So that's one thing,
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Speaker 2: is just knowing where to look for the information. But
4:53
Speaker 2: another thing that can get in the way is people's habits.
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Speaker 2: We've just been doing it this way for so darn long,
5:00
Speaker 2: we don't even notice we're doing it anymore. It's you know,
5:02
Speaker 2: it's that old saying about the fish and the water,
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Speaker 2: and you know, what's water? What are you talking about?
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Speaker 2: Because it's just all around them all the time, they
5:09
Speaker 2: don't notice it, and so that habit piece can be
5:14
Speaker 2: extremely challenging and finding the root cause of problems. The
5:18
Speaker 2: other thing that really gets in the way of leaders
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Speaker 2: solving problems is just the emotional piece of it, you know, Fear,
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Speaker 2: fear of change, fear of the unknown, Fear that if
5:28
Speaker 2: I pay my best project manager more than all the
5:31
Speaker 2: other ones, the other ones are going to find out
5:33
Speaker 2: and they're going to quit. Fear that if I don't
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Speaker 2: pay my best project manager more than all the other ones,
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Speaker 2: then she's going to find out and she's going to quit. Right,
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Speaker 2: It cuts both ways, and it's so debilitating from even
5:45
Speaker 2: moving forward. But I think overall, I would just say
5:50
Speaker 2: it's it's perspective. I mean, you have one, I have one.
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Speaker 2: We're both one hundred percent right in our perspective because
5:58
Speaker 2: the way we see things, but our perspectives may be different.
6:03
Speaker 1: Right. That can be a challenge, absolutely well I think
6:08
Speaker 1: that and again having somebody like yourself here come in
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Speaker 1: if you don't know, you don't know, and like how
6:14
Speaker 1: getting some kind of assessment or baseline where are you at?
6:17
Speaker 1: Like maybe you're doing pretty good on processes or systems
6:20
Speaker 1: and maybe you're covered. We have different voices on this
6:22
Speaker 1: podcast all the time. Maybe you're legal is good, or
6:23
Speaker 1: maybe it's a cybercurity is covered great. But what I
6:27
Speaker 1: found oftentimes, and this is where you specialize too, is
6:30
Speaker 1: your people are dynamic. There's lots of things going on.
6:32
Speaker 1: So every time you add a new person into the mix,
6:34
Speaker 1: that's like I call a storm of change. And so
6:39
Speaker 1: you know, identifying you what I found is there they
6:43
Speaker 1: may they may not know unless they have somebody coming
6:46
Speaker 1: in there and asking the questions like yourself.
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Speaker 2: Right, m exactly, Yeah, just offering that perspective, right.
6:52
Speaker 1: Well, so, and so I guess is to your point
6:55
Speaker 1: there and what I'm hearing is be curious as a
6:58
Speaker 1: business owner of like what's what's working or maybe you're
7:01
Speaker 1: breathing in and you don't realize and like getting there's
7:04
Speaker 1: a point of like going to the doctor and getting
7:06
Speaker 1: regular checkouts, right because we don't see some things, yep,
7:10
Speaker 1: And sometimes it can be a little intimidating. But I
7:13
Speaker 1: think finding a good consultant like yourself there is you're
7:15
Speaker 1: not going to beat them up over the head. You're like, look,
7:17
Speaker 1: I'm here to help you. I'm not going to like
7:19
Speaker 1: try to make you feel bad about yourself. It's just, hey,
7:21
Speaker 1: let's just deal with the facts of what's going on here, right,
7:24
Speaker 1: because then you can fix it.
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Speaker 2: Well, yes, I agree with you. And often what we
7:30
Speaker 2: find are things that they're good at and could be
7:33
Speaker 2: great at. And so I think that's also important to consider,
7:36
Speaker 2: is that when we go in and do an analysis
7:38
Speaker 2: and take a look at what's working what's not, sometimes
7:41
Speaker 2: the stuff that's not working isn't even worth dealing with.
7:44
Speaker 2: It may not even be core. How did that thing
7:46
Speaker 2: get added on there? Oh someone asked it for some
7:49
Speaker 2: time ago, and now we just do it. But is
7:51
Speaker 2: it actually providing any value? Maybe not? And meantime, we're
7:55
Speaker 2: amazing at this thing over here, but we're not promoting
7:58
Speaker 2: it very much, so we don't do it as well. Often, like,
8:00
Speaker 2: I don't know what we'll find when we go in
8:02
Speaker 2: and do an assessment, but I can say people shouldn't
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Speaker 2: assume we're looking for problems. Sometimes we're looking for taking
8:10
Speaker 2: things from good to great.
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Speaker 1: I like that. I like that well, and that gets
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Speaker 1: into kind of a follow up conversation that I want
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Speaker 1: to get into because with your expertise of influence and
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Speaker 1: ethical influence a particular in leadership, because I think sometimes
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Speaker 1: we can undermine ourselves in trying to influence people and
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Speaker 1: not doing it like in our natural way, like I said, Tara,
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Speaker 1: and so I'd love to you and unpack a little
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Speaker 1: bit with us for those on the podcast here today,
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Speaker 1: what do you define as ethical influence? What does that
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Speaker 1: mean to you? Want to say that or sure?
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Speaker 2: Well, if we just start with influence. First of all,
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Speaker 2: influencing is getting basically it's getting people either at work
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Speaker 2: or at home or wherever. It's getting people to say
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Speaker 2: yes a little bit more often. You know, life is
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Speaker 2: just a little bit easier when we can get people
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Speaker 2: to say yes and agree with us. So that's influence.
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Speaker 2: And there are many ways to influence people. For example,
9:09
Speaker 2: if we could use money, you know, if I pay
9:11
Speaker 2: you a little more, will you do this thing? Like
9:13
Speaker 2: that is a form of influence. Or we could use
9:16
Speaker 2: force or even violence. I mean whole regimes are created
9:20
Speaker 2: around that. The problem with those techniques is that they
9:24
Speaker 2: aren't necessarily long lasting. You know how many business owners
9:29
Speaker 2: have used I'm sure you've spoken to many who are complaining.
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Speaker 2: You know, I gave them that bonus in December and
9:36
Speaker 2: it's January and the effect's already worn off. You know
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Speaker 2: what's going on with that? Or you know, I just
9:42
Speaker 2: told them. If you don't do it, you know, I'm
9:44
Speaker 2: going to fire you. And it might work for a while,
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Speaker 2: but it always ends up not sticking. And so what
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Speaker 2: we focus on is this ethical influence, which basically means
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Speaker 2: if it's good for you and it's good for me,
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Speaker 2: if we've got a win win here, then let's let's
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Speaker 2: keep going. Let's let's move forward. And so there are
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Speaker 2: different tactics that we can use to persuade people in
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Speaker 2: an ethical way.
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Speaker 1: Right. I think you brought up some really good examples
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Speaker 1: of how you can influence people in a not healthy way,
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Speaker 1: like regime chains, and there's a way, yeah, in a
10:19
Speaker 1: very unhealthy way. And I don't think some people, even
10:23
Speaker 1: and they may not be conditioned so long maybe tear
10:25
Speaker 1: up that they think it's actually a good thing. They're
10:28
Speaker 1: like because look as results, right, you know, yeah, but
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Speaker 1: it's not good for everybody.
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Speaker 2: Right, and the results may not stick. And you know,
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Speaker 2: more than anything else at Bell Rock, we're about lasting results.
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Speaker 2: We don't actually see a point in working with clients
10:43
Speaker 2: that where it's not going to stick. It has to
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Speaker 2: stick otherwise you didn't deliver the value. And so ethical
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Speaker 2: influence really feeds into that because we want these things
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Speaker 2: to stick.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well so you know, so, I know one of
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Speaker 1: the ones we author Drew Friad is like Daniel Pink
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Speaker 1: he talks about like most people spend about forty to
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Speaker 1: eighty percent of their workday trying to influence people.
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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, forty one percent. Actually, yeah, the research is
11:12
Speaker 2: something like that. Yeah, so forty one percent, you know exactly.
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Speaker 1: You're right on the money. So something in that that's
11:17
Speaker 1: a good amount of time. So can you walk us
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Speaker 1: through then, perhaps ways that we could be doing in
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Speaker 1: a healthier way.
11:26
Speaker 2: Sure, well, yeah, so Doctor Robert Sheldini in the eighties
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Speaker 2: published a book called Influence, and in it he uncovers
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Speaker 2: the seven sort of principles of ethical influence and persuasion.
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Speaker 2: What that and we won't go through all of those today.
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Speaker 2: Of course, But what it's predicated on is some research
11:46
Speaker 2: by a Nobel Prize winner named Daniel Konnoman. So Connoman
11:50
Speaker 2: won although he's a behavioral scientist, he won the Nobel
11:53
Speaker 2: Prize for economics, which is weird, like why is a
11:57
Speaker 2: behavioral scientist winning a prize for economics? But what he
12:00
Speaker 2: actually uncovered. See, before Connoman's research, the world sort of
12:05
Speaker 2: generally accepted that humans make decisions in rational ways, that
12:09
Speaker 2: we think through these things. But what Conoman found is
12:13
Speaker 2: about ninety five percent of the time we're running on
12:16
Speaker 2: automatic pilot. And if you've ever driven a car, when
12:22
Speaker 2: you first learned to drive, man, you were thinking about everything.
12:25
Speaker 2: You have to concentrate so hard you hit the gas
12:28
Speaker 2: in the car will go, and then you hit the
12:29
Speaker 2: break and you go like this and it was so hard.
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Speaker 2: But you know, a decade or two later, sometimes I
12:35
Speaker 2: get behind the wheel in my car and then I
12:37
Speaker 2: get to where I was going and I don't even
12:39
Speaker 2: remember the journey. I'm so on automatic pilot, and I
12:43
Speaker 2: hope I'm not alone in that, because otherwise I'm a
12:45
Speaker 2: preal menace out there. But that's basically what Conoman uncovered
12:51
Speaker 2: is that we are operating on an automatic pilot. What Sheldini
12:54
Speaker 2: then added to that was, Okay, how can we activate
12:57
Speaker 2: those automatic pilots. So, for example, there's a principle of liking.
13:06
Speaker 2: We like to agree with people who we like. So
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Speaker 2: if we can activate on the principles of liking, we
13:13
Speaker 2: will have a better effectiveness in terms of influence. So
13:18
Speaker 2: think about that. Think about sort of the manager who
13:22
Speaker 2: just gets along really well with his team, not lets
13:26
Speaker 2: them get away with stuff, but they have something in
13:28
Speaker 2: common and they kind of like each other and they've
13:31
Speaker 2: found these things well, when they have to have a
13:33
Speaker 2: difficult conversation, it's easier because they like each other. Yes,
13:38
Speaker 2: and so these are the kinds of principles that we
13:40
Speaker 2: talk about in ethical influence.
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Speaker 1: I mean, that's so important if you understand that. I
13:50
Speaker 1: think the words sometimes like you said, kind of putting
13:52
Speaker 1: this in perspective, Teldina broke it down. I think understanding that, oh,
13:57
Speaker 1: I didn't even realize I'm doing this, like, yes, I'm
14:01
Speaker 1: going an automatic pilot. We and then we don't under
14:04
Speaker 1: don't think through that. But then when you realize, oh,
14:07
Speaker 1: that's what I'm doing, it could either be helping me
14:09
Speaker 1: or or hurting me in this in the relationships, right.
14:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there are all of these your bang
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Speaker 2: on and then there are all of these little things
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Speaker 2: that you can do to further activate on the principles
14:23
Speaker 2: that he's laid out. So if I go back again
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Speaker 2: to to liking, you know what, what how can we
14:30
Speaker 2: use that? Well? One study showed that if we build
14:34
Speaker 2: rapport before getting down to business, find that liking, we
14:39
Speaker 2: are far more likely to get a deal. So they
14:43
Speaker 2: did a study, they actually did a study online with negotiations.
14:47
Speaker 2: So they took two different MBA schools and broke the
14:52
Speaker 2: different groups into teams. And with one group, they said,
14:56
Speaker 2: time is money, get down to business, try to get
14:59
Speaker 2: in a negotiated settlement with whatever this scenario was. And
15:03
Speaker 2: in the other group, they said, before you get to business,
15:08
Speaker 2: get to know each other a little bit, find some
15:10
Speaker 2: common ground. And the group that found the common ground
15:14
Speaker 2: came to resolution, came to a negotiated settlement way more
15:18
Speaker 2: often than the group that just got down to business.
15:22
Speaker 2: And that's activating on that principle of liking. We like
15:25
Speaker 2: to do deals with people who we like, So so
15:29
Speaker 2: do your homework, find some common ground. And so if
15:33
Speaker 2: you're a manager of an employee, find some common ground.
15:36
Speaker 2: If you have a client, find some whatever it is,
15:39
Speaker 2: try to activate on that liking principle.
15:41
Speaker 1: I like, well, that's as you guys are listening in
15:44
Speaker 1: that gold right now. You can just take that to
15:46
Speaker 1: the bank with you because to your point, though, I
15:49
Speaker 1: know I've worked with people there that are like, let's
15:50
Speaker 1: just get it done, let's get spright to the point,
15:52
Speaker 1: and then they're underminding their influence. They are actually not
15:54
Speaker 1: going to get the deal done. To your point, they're
15:56
Speaker 1: just pushing this is the way it should be done, and
15:58
Speaker 1: they missed the opportunity to you know, like you said,
16:02
Speaker 1: actually think through this a little bit more, do the
16:05
Speaker 1: homework and build that, and you're going to actually be
16:08
Speaker 1: winning in the long run.
16:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. They think they think it's a waste of time. Now,
16:14
Speaker 2: this isn't foolproof, it's not one hundred percent guarantees humans
16:17
Speaker 2: are human. But what it does is that it stacks
16:21
Speaker 2: the odds in your favor. And really that's all we
16:23
Speaker 2: can do, right is sort of build up these small
16:26
Speaker 2: things that can lead to outsized results to stack the
16:29
Speaker 2: odds in our favor.
16:30
Speaker 1: No, I think that's great. Now, I love to maybe
16:33
Speaker 1: dig a little bit. You and I have worked with
16:36
Speaker 1: professional services firms in the aec sphace, architecture and engineering,
16:39
Speaker 1: construction technical professionals. What is you know? You mentioned this
16:43
Speaker 1: was one problem for people beating apps and sales. Well,
16:46
Speaker 1: what's another thing that common challenge? You see someone moving
16:49
Speaker 1: from a technical doer to a manager or a leader
16:52
Speaker 1: where they are maybe undermining their influence. And I'll give
16:56
Speaker 1: you an example for me real quick, because I knew
17:00
Speaker 1: I was taking over leading and I was a technical person,
17:04
Speaker 1: and I felt like I didn't know all the answers,
17:06
Speaker 1: like I had to like show like I knew everything.
17:08
Speaker 1: And I realized that put a dissonance between me and
17:11
Speaker 1: the people now that I was kind of overseeing. So
17:15
Speaker 1: I didn't have the influence that I wanted to. And
17:17
Speaker 1: I realized I was frustrated by that. And then I realized, Okay,
17:20
Speaker 1: but then like like what do I show? How do I,
17:25
Speaker 1: you know, influence them in a positive way? I don't
17:27
Speaker 1: want to like just you know, show them like I
17:29
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm doing right? So talk can you
17:31
Speaker 1: walk through a little bit of like what do you
17:33
Speaker 1: what do you see? In that space.
17:35
Speaker 2: Well, I definitely see what you're describing, and different people
17:39
Speaker 2: handle it in different ways. I do think that on
17:42
Speaker 2: one hand, there is an influenced principle of authority, so
17:47
Speaker 2: in fact, people do tend to listen to and follow
17:51
Speaker 2: the advice of people that they think know more about
17:54
Speaker 2: a topic than they do. So you're right when when
17:57
Speaker 2: a person becomes a leader for the first time, I'm
18:01
Speaker 2: it's understandable why they'd feel like, oh, I don't know enough.
18:04
Speaker 2: But there's another principle they can activate on instead, which
18:08
Speaker 2: is the principle of unity. So unity is I'm in Vancouver, Canada.
18:14
Speaker 2: We have a hockey team here called the Canucks, and
18:19
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people here who are fans
18:21
Speaker 2: of the Canucks. So you can activate on that principle
18:25
Speaker 2: of liking. Bear with me here. Activating on the principle
18:28
Speaker 2: of liking would be, oh, we both like the Canucks
18:30
Speaker 2: and we talk a little bit about the game, but
18:33
Speaker 2: being actually on the Canucks, if we were both Canucks,
18:38
Speaker 2: that would be activating on the principle of unity, where
18:41
Speaker 2: we're both on the same team and we're trying to
18:44
Speaker 2: work together. So somebody who gets promoted to be a
18:47
Speaker 2: new manager instead of trying to be all authoritative and
18:51
Speaker 2: the boss. Another choice there is to co create, like
18:56
Speaker 2: instead of and instead of asking for feedback, ask for advice.
19:01
Speaker 2: Do you have any advice for me? Put yourself in
19:03
Speaker 2: my shoes? What advice do you have? And now they're
19:06
Speaker 2: co creating with that employee, not telling them what to do,
19:10
Speaker 2: but creating it together and therefore bonding themselves more as
19:14
Speaker 2: a team.
19:15
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think that's great. And I think this
19:19
Speaker 1: is not just because I've lived this myself. This is
19:22
Speaker 1: not an overnight thing. And this is where I feel
19:24
Speaker 1: like having somebody like you or me and tera coming
19:26
Speaker 1: alongside and guiding them, because I could watch a video
19:29
Speaker 1: or read a book, but there's like the actual practice
19:32
Speaker 1: of this. You speak to that a little bit about that, Tara,
19:35
Speaker 1: Like how do you work with people? How do you
19:36
Speaker 1: walk them through your program to get them more confident
19:39
Speaker 1: in that, because that's the first time, Like I've never
19:41
Speaker 1: done it, like riding a bike. It's like, oh, I've
19:43
Speaker 1: never done this. Why do I create unity? I've never
19:45
Speaker 1: done it before?
19:46
Speaker 2: Exactly. Well, we actually offer management training programs, so people
19:49
Speaker 2: come to classes and learn the principles sort of like
19:52
Speaker 2: we're talking right now, and we give them specific exercises
19:56
Speaker 2: so that they can first of all practice in class
20:00
Speaker 2: in a group. But then they have assignments that they
20:03
Speaker 2: have to go do with their people. They have to
20:05
Speaker 2: try it and with all of our classes. What's really
20:08
Speaker 2: important to us, as I said earlier, is that things stick.
20:11
Speaker 2: So with every class comes one on one coaching. So
20:14
Speaker 2: once they've gone and tried it with their team, they
20:17
Speaker 2: then get a one on one coach to talk through
20:19
Speaker 2: how it went, how to do it slightly different, maybe
20:21
Speaker 2: improve the technique, maybe not have them throw the whole
20:25
Speaker 2: thing out just because maybe one thing didn't go so well.
20:28
Speaker 2: So for us, it's you know, really important principle to
20:32
Speaker 2: me is just get started. But the other one is
20:35
Speaker 2: stick with it. You know, stick with it and you'll
20:37
Speaker 2: get better. It's just the driving right when you first
20:41
Speaker 2: learn to drive. If you were just that good forever
20:44
Speaker 2: at that first drive, oh my goodness, you'd be in trouble.
20:48
Speaker 1: Well. And I think sometimes people in our today are
20:51
Speaker 1: instantaneous society today, They want to see things happen so quickly,
20:56
Speaker 1: but they don't. They lose the motivation, lose that drive.
21:00
Speaker 1: And if they could just stick with it, like you said, longer, right, Sarah.
21:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, and celebrate their successes instead of just finding everything
21:08
Speaker 2: that went wrong.
21:09
Speaker 1: That's a really good point too, Sarah. Like celebrating because
21:13
Speaker 1: I remember bringing that up in a company to your
21:16
Speaker 1: point earlier about the sales component, but just as a
21:19
Speaker 1: different experience of like building maybe unity of like I
21:22
Speaker 1: worked with a business owner and they just didn't see
21:26
Speaker 1: the value and like celebrating once we've got a lot
21:28
Speaker 1: of that. We got a lot of stuff to get done.
21:30
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of things on the list. I
21:32
Speaker 1: don't we can't spend five minutes on the agenda celebrating.
21:35
Speaker 1: Do you speak a little bit about celebrating in the
21:37
Speaker 1: in the workspace?
21:38
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean it's part of motivation people. It
21:42
Speaker 2: turns out that humans aren't robots. And if you want
21:45
Speaker 2: a robot, there are lots of them out there, so
21:47
Speaker 2: go for it. But psychologically speaking, you know, we like
21:53
Speaker 2: to do We like to see ourselves making progress. Progress
21:57
Speaker 2: feels good. My fifteen year old is learning the guitar
22:01
Speaker 2: and he's practicing a lot, and this is totally of
22:04
Speaker 2: his own volition. No one's making him play this instrument.
22:07
Speaker 2: He wants to, and when he gets just a little
22:10
Speaker 2: bit better, he gets so excited and then he does
22:13
Speaker 2: more practicing and again nobody's forcing this on him. Well,
22:17
Speaker 2: what if you could apply that principle at work. What
22:20
Speaker 2: if a manager could be applying that like, oh, well
22:23
Speaker 2: you did you know, maybe we got this far to go,
22:25
Speaker 2: but we're here, and that's is a progress makes the
22:30
Speaker 2: person feel like, yeah, I did that, I can do more.
22:33
Speaker 2: You know, even when I write proposals for work, at
22:38
Speaker 2: the end of the proposal in the cover letter, I
22:41
Speaker 2: always say and congratulations for taking this first step. Right,
22:46
Speaker 2: I'm giving them this sort of endowed progress. You are
22:50
Speaker 2: already on the path. Congratulations, let's keep going. Which, whether
22:55
Speaker 2: you do it with me or somebody else, you're doing
22:57
Speaker 2: good work here. And that is a debating on the
23:00
Speaker 2: influenced principle of consistency, which is people that we should
23:06
Speaker 2: always be consistent with others with what we say. But
23:08
Speaker 2: it's more that people want to be consistent with their
23:11
Speaker 2: own behavior. So if we can show hey, you practice
23:14
Speaker 2: the guitar and you got this little bit of success
23:18
Speaker 2: way to go, they're more likely to keep trying and
23:21
Speaker 2: keep trying and keep trying so leaders also can take,
23:25
Speaker 2: as you said, five minutes to say, see this stuff
23:30
Speaker 2: that you did, please keep doing that all day long.
23:33
Speaker 2: This is good stuff. Just to be clear, love in
23:36
Speaker 2: this part. Now we can talk about.
23:38
Speaker 1: This, right. I think that's so important Tara that you
23:42
Speaker 1: broke that down, because I've seen people at times with
23:46
Speaker 1: hold celebrating the good part because they're like, well, I
23:49
Speaker 1: don't want to celebrate that part because we got this part,
23:52
Speaker 1: and if I celebrate this, they're not going to focus
23:55
Speaker 1: on on that. And I think you're breaking it down
23:58
Speaker 1: and giving you an example of your son, like, no,
24:00
Speaker 1: they make it, did they see they make progress? They
24:02
Speaker 1: really will still keep motivated.
24:05
Speaker 2: Yes, And it's not just kids. You know kids we
24:08
Speaker 2: were we were all kids once, so they're good, good examples.
24:12
Speaker 2: But I'll give you I'll take this a step further.
24:15
Speaker 2: There was a study they did. You're gonna think this
24:18
Speaker 2: is totally not check quarter, but it's not. So they
24:21
Speaker 2: did a study about consistency with loyalty cards. So you
24:24
Speaker 2: know those cards like you go to the gas station
24:26
Speaker 2: for a car wash, and you know, you do eight
24:29
Speaker 2: car washes and you get the ninth one free. You
24:31
Speaker 2: know what I'm talking about little cards. Okay, so they
24:34
Speaker 2: did a study and one of the cards that they
24:36
Speaker 2: gave out had eight blank spaces, so you do eight
24:41
Speaker 2: and then the ninth is free. And with that, they
24:45
Speaker 2: found that nineteen percent of people who's they gave these
24:48
Speaker 2: cards to made no progress. Okay, they didn't, they didn't
24:53
Speaker 2: complete the loyalty card. But with people sorry, nineteen percent
25:01
Speaker 2: of them completed the loyalty card. So they had eight
25:04
Speaker 2: blank spaces, nineteen percent of people did all nine eight
25:08
Speaker 2: and got one free. They in the other group, they
25:11
Speaker 2: gave out a loyalty card with ten open spaces, but
25:17
Speaker 2: they put stars in the first two, so it's like
25:20
Speaker 2: they'd already started. They gave them for free. It was
25:23
Speaker 2: like two free, even though either way both card they
25:26
Speaker 2: had to do eight.
25:27
Speaker 1: Yes, got it.
25:28
Speaker 2: So on the one where they gave them two free,
25:31
Speaker 2: thirty four percent of people completed the card. And that
25:36
Speaker 2: that's a seventy almost a seventy nine percent increase in
25:40
Speaker 2: results just by saying, look, you've already started, doesn't cost anything.
25:48
Speaker 2: It's a it's an a moment of ethical persuasion. It
25:51
Speaker 2: didn't cost anything more. It's good for you, it's good
25:54
Speaker 2: for me. We're good to go, and we got you know,
25:58
Speaker 2: almost double.
26:00
Speaker 1: I love, I love, I love the background you're bringing,
26:04
Speaker 1: the studies. This is why I brought Terror on Carecter.
26:06
Speaker 1: You've got this a wealth of knowledge and experience doing this.
26:10
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes people think, oh, this is wu
26:13
Speaker 1: wu stuff. No, it's it's science based. It's understanding these things.
26:17
Speaker 1: These quote unquote soft skills are very powerful and there's
26:21
Speaker 1: there's backing to them, right, Tara, exactly.
26:23
Speaker 2: And I like that you said it's science based because
26:26
Speaker 2: it is. They study this stuff in controlled environments to
26:29
Speaker 2: figure out what works and what doesn't.
26:32
Speaker 1: Right, And I think sometimes people want to just terror.
26:35
Speaker 1: I think sometimes, like I said, I work with a
26:37
Speaker 1: lot of companies and they want to buy you know,
26:40
Speaker 1: the next pro like you know, system thing or software right,
26:44
Speaker 1: the shining object and like and it's like, well, the
26:47
Speaker 1: people don't need this, they don't, you know, And and
26:50
Speaker 1: they don't. And that's why I found it called Steward
26:53
Speaker 1: your Business. Why I founded the company about steward your
26:55
Speaker 1: people the greatest assets. And I think that's why I
26:57
Speaker 1: love what you're doing at bell Rock. By the way, folks,
27:00
Speaker 1: if you want to connect with Terror, We're connected on
27:02
Speaker 1: LinkedIn and I'll put the notes to bell Rock. You
27:05
Speaker 1: guys can connect with her, uh and please do. She
27:08
Speaker 1: did greats, some great I just talked with her earlier
27:10
Speaker 1: to day. She was putting some posts on her LinkedIn
27:12
Speaker 1: some great resources there, So go there. But I think,
27:17
Speaker 1: you know, talk to whatever the mindset or maybe the
27:22
Speaker 1: limitation that you see in the business owner or even
27:24
Speaker 1: the individual, like am I worth it? Should I spend
27:26
Speaker 1: the money and time on this? You know, instead of
27:29
Speaker 1: where we only have so much time and so much money,
27:31
Speaker 1: but the dividends that you see, like what would be
27:34
Speaker 1: you know, how to overcome that objection in themselves? Terrace?
27:37
Speaker 1: Can you speak a little bit to that?
27:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, just clarify for me.
27:43
Speaker 1: Will they be hesitant of like why should I spend
27:45
Speaker 1: the time in going through a program like this, going
27:49
Speaker 1: through getting this help? You know, because they feel like
27:51
Speaker 1: am I worth it? Am I? Is it going to
27:53
Speaker 1: make that much difference in my life? Right? Then?
27:56
Speaker 2: I like the question because they're number of ways to
28:00
Speaker 2: answer it using the principles of persuasion. So for example,
28:06
Speaker 2: should I do it? Well, we could use social proof.
28:09
Speaker 2: You know, thousands of other people have done it. And
28:11
Speaker 2: found it helpful. So if those people are like you,
28:15
Speaker 2: that might be an indication that it's a it's a
28:17
Speaker 2: good idea to try. We've been doing this for twenty
28:20
Speaker 2: five years as well, so you know that's a long time.
28:23
Speaker 2: We've got a little bit of experience and authority. But
28:27
Speaker 2: the biggest, the biggest objection, as you said, is usually
28:31
Speaker 2: it's actually not cost. They're not worried about cost, they're
28:33
Speaker 2: worried about value. Are we going to Are we going
28:36
Speaker 2: to get the value? And that's why at Melrock, our
28:40
Speaker 2: our brand promise one hundred percent is if you don't
28:43
Speaker 2: see value, don't pay us. Like just we don't sign contracts,
28:46
Speaker 2: don't don't pay. So basically, try it. Why wouldn't you
28:50
Speaker 2: just get started. If you get started and it works out,
28:53
Speaker 2: we would love you to pay us. If we get
28:56
Speaker 2: started and it works out and you just decide not
28:58
Speaker 2: to pay us, we may not show back up again
29:01
Speaker 2: another time. When you call that, you know, we'll shake
29:04
Speaker 2: hands and part ways and that'll be that.
29:06
Speaker 1: Absolutely Well. I think I think you're it's all. Yeah,
29:10
Speaker 1: value is huge, and I think I found at least
29:13
Speaker 1: some point where there's a switch where it's like, oh, No,
29:14
Speaker 1: I'm actually valuable. It's worth it, and I think and
29:18
Speaker 1: I want to be at least for me, Tarah. In
29:20
Speaker 1: my own journey, I was like, Okay, I realized if
29:23
Speaker 1: I want to be an effective leader, I better start
29:27
Speaker 1: working on myself first, because if I want people to
29:31
Speaker 1: show up and I'm not willing to do the work,
29:33
Speaker 1: They're probably not going to do the work. Right.
29:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I also I also think you're making me
29:38
Speaker 2: think of something else, which is especially in architecture, engineering, construction,
29:42
Speaker 2: sort of like the professional fields. People went to school
29:47
Speaker 2: to learn the stuff that they've learned, and they probably
29:50
Speaker 2: spent a lot of years doing that, and then they
29:52
Speaker 2: spent a lot of years practicing, but it was the
29:55
Speaker 2: technical stuff that they were learning. We're just talking about
29:58
Speaker 2: a different skill set here, and you might I mean,
30:02
Speaker 2: most people can fake it, it's true, But why would
30:05
Speaker 2: you want to, Like, you went to school for all
30:07
Speaker 2: those years to learn all that other stuff. There's school
30:10
Speaker 2: for this too. How do you leave people properly and effectively?
30:13
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, And I think you know it's learning. You know,
30:19
Speaker 1: we're in different worlds now, Terrea. I'm sure you know
30:22
Speaker 1: we're not all working in the same office. Anymore. There's
30:24
Speaker 1: different ways for communicating, whether it's text, email, whatever, the
30:28
Speaker 1: messaging thing maybe is we're on a video recall. There's
30:31
Speaker 1: different ways you can influence folks. And if you're not
30:33
Speaker 1: aware of this, like you again, you said, you may
30:37
Speaker 1: be interding it in an unhealthy way. And why not
30:39
Speaker 1: get healthier? Right?
30:41
Speaker 2: Why not? Yeah? Why not? It's usually the real reason
30:45
Speaker 2: why not is time. But once people see the benefits,
30:48
Speaker 2: they find that suddenly they have time.
30:50
Speaker 1: Well, and to your point, I mean, we're doing we're
30:53
Speaker 1: doing work. We've talked with a lot of technical folks.
30:56
Speaker 1: But it goes. It starts perhaps in your workplace, but
30:59
Speaker 1: I'm sure, like you said, it's and expand into your
31:01
Speaker 1: relationship with your spouse, your children, other folks. Right, So
31:04
Speaker 1: it's going to enrich all aspects of life hopefully.
31:07
Speaker 2: Yeah. You once you see these influence principles, you start
31:11
Speaker 2: to see them everywhere. You can't just limit it to
31:13
Speaker 2: your workplace.
31:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. I know we're getting to the end of
31:17
Speaker 1: the podcast here. There's way more I want to go
31:19
Speaker 1: into with you, but we just don't have enough times
31:21
Speaker 1: this time around, So you have to come back or
31:23
Speaker 1: maybe I'll get you and Jonathan On will do a
31:24
Speaker 1: group right, So I haven't been a full roundtable in
31:30
Speaker 1: a while, so I got to do another episode. But
31:34
Speaker 1: since we've covered a lot, I'm going to make sure
31:35
Speaker 1: all of your links are provided in our show notes.
31:38
Speaker 1: And by the way, people please leave any comments you have.
31:42
Speaker 1: We'll make sure taror gets them. Whatever format of it is,
31:44
Speaker 1: it's on YouTube or LinkedIn wherever you're finding us. But
31:47
Speaker 1: I always like to give our guests an opportunity terrortor
31:49
Speaker 1: just you know, we've talked a lot of different things here.
31:52
Speaker 1: If I've not done anything yet, I'm listening to this
31:55
Speaker 1: and saying, where do I start? What do I do?
31:57
Speaker 1: I know there's a problem. I know I'm not having
31:59
Speaker 1: the implument I want to have. What would you say
32:01
Speaker 1: to that person, that business owner, the individual, Where do
32:04
Speaker 1: they start? What would they where would they go? Should
32:06
Speaker 1: they do?
32:07
Speaker 2: I would first of all tell them that they just
32:09
Speaker 2: got started. They already started. They did just by listening
32:12
Speaker 2: to this and coming to the end of this, and
32:15
Speaker 2: there's probably one thing that they heard that really resonated
32:18
Speaker 2: with them, that just that one little spark. Go try that,
32:23
Speaker 2: try that, and remember all you're doing is learning how
32:26
Speaker 2: to play the guitar. That's it. So you're not going
32:29
Speaker 2: to be the best at it the first time you
32:32
Speaker 2: do it, but every time you try, you're going to
32:34
Speaker 2: get a little better. And once you get those results,
32:37
Speaker 2: maybe you'll want to try something else.
32:39
Speaker 1: Uh. That's great, Tara. Thank you so much for being
32:42
Speaker 1: here with us on the podcast. Weight share it with
32:50
Speaker 1: your network if you're interested in being on the podcast.
32:54
Speaker 1: We love having new guests. Tara, thank you so much
32:57
Speaker 1: for being here with us.
32:58
Speaker 2: Thanks David, it was a great conversation.
33:00
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, until next time, be well. Thanks for
33:03
Speaker 1: joining us on the Business Roundtable podcast.