Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Better Sleep for Older Kids—And Their Parents: Making a plan, post-crib

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Better Sleep for Older Kids—And Their Parents: Making a plan, post-crib · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Bed.
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: Sleep now a lot tired.
• 0:11
  Speaker 3: Cab so baby chicks knuckled up the mummy chicken and
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: drifted off to sleep the end. Okay, sleep your time now,
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: just want more? This is parentinga I'm Emily astro boie.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Can I have a drink of water? Okay?
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: Heidi, Dad?
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Can you sing to me?
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Ninety nine bottles a thing on the wall. Ninety nine
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: bottles a thing And in one of these bottles just
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: happened a fall. There'll be ninety save bottles a thing
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: on the wall.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: A few months ago, I was at dinner with two
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: older couples. Both of them had grown kids, kids in
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: their thirties, and one of them had grandkids. And they
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: got in a fight. And the fight was about sleep
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: hygiene for toddlers. And it wasn't about the toddlers that
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: were the grandkids. It was a fight about what they
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: had done thirty five years ago when their own children
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: were not very effective sleepers. One of the people thought
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: that it was appropriate to have your kids sleep in
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: your bed, and the other couple had insisted on their
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: children sleeping in their room. They got quite heated, and
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: what was striking was both that apparently one never gets
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: over fighting about things like sleep with other parents who
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: you disagree with, but also that The father of one
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: of the couples remembered so vividly his attempts to get
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: his child to sleep in her room. He recounted that
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: when they had finally decided to insist that she go
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: back to her room when she came out at night,
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: that the first night he returned her to the room
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty times. One hundred and thirty times,
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: he remembered the number. The next night it was forty
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: four times. After that she stayed in her room, which
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: he viewed as a success. That, of course led to
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: more arguing. The conversation ended. Sleep for parents is one
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: of the hardest things when we have a baby. We
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: expect sleep deprivation when they're infants, and we talk a lot,
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: both on parent Data and in general about how to
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: get small babies to sleep better, thinking about sleep training,
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: thinking about versions of cry it out or not cry
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: it out.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: But what I think it's.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: Much less attention is that these issues with sleep continue
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: as our kids get older. One of the most common
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: questions that I get at parent data is how do
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: I get my toddler or elementary school age kid to
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: sleep better. We don't expect this, but the sleep deprivation
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: that now has built up over three, four or five
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: years can be really damaging to parent mental health. We
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: worry that our kids aren't getting enough sleep, and often
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: bedtime becomes a kind of scorched earth disaster movie. I've
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: talked about sleep for childlers in general in a lot
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: of my writing. I've talked about the value of consistency,
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: about ways to generate a better bedtime routine. But it
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: turns out most people think that that's not concrete enough.
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: So today on the podcast, I brought on Jessica Burke
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: Jessica as a sleep consultant, and we're going to talk
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: very concretely about methods for getting kids who can leave
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: the room on their own to stay in there. We're
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: going to talk about the importance of sleep, but we
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: also talk about just literally, how can one implement this
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: kind of sleep environment that will help your kids sleep
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: better and just as importantly, will help you sleep better.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: And with that after the break, Jessica Burke, Jessica, it
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: is great to have you on Parent Data.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I would love to start. Can you just introduce yourself? Yes,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: my name is Jessica Burke.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: I am a certified pediatric sleep consultant and I'm the
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: founder of Awesome Little Sleepers. And when I say sleep consultant,
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: if you've ever heard of a sleep consultant, most people
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: think of babies. But I actually specialize in older kids,
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: so kids closer to three years old, because if you
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: have kids in this range, you know that once they're
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: out of the crib and sleeping in a bed, sleep
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: can really get crazy at that point. So that is
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: actually I specialize in bigger.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: Kids, which is why I brought you on because I
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: would say if we put in the top questions that
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: I get in parent data, they are about sleep, food,
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: and well really sleep and food, oh screens, sleep and
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: food and screens. And so today we're doing sleep, and
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: I would say the biggest sleep question is about this
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: older kid range. Where as we will get into it
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: gets much harder. But I want to start before we
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: even talk about like why is this hard and when
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: does it fall apart? And how do we fix it?
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  Speaker 3: With this almost the science of sleep, So I spend
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: an awful lot of time talking about why sleep is
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: important and how the data says the sleep is important
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: and I just want to put a pin in that,
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  Speaker 3: because I don't think that we speak enough to parents
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: about why their own sleep is important, why the sleep
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: that their kid gets is important, Why it is worth
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: it to undertake some things which are a little costly
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: in the short term because it's going to deliver good
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: sleep for you and your kids later. So do you
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: want to tell me why you've devoted your career to
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: the importance of sleep?
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: Yes, thank you so much for saying that, because it
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: is so true. And this is exactly what I tell
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: parents all the time. So even though, like you know,
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: you and I understand how important parental sleep is, especially
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: for moms, but you know, I tell moms that in
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: order to really focus on this process of improving their
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: kids sleep, they really need to think about how important
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: sleep is for their child, because I feel like parents
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: don't really want to do anything that they are going
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: to be thinking is like selfish in any way, and
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: so I really try to bring it back to the
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: importance to the child, although it was very important to both.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: But you know, there's I think it's like the American
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Academy of Pediatrics says that it's like twenty five or
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: thirty percent of kids under five years old do not
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: get enough sleep. And I mean, we know how important
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: sleep is. I mean, you know you can say this
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: more than I can, but science shows us that, I mean,
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: in the short term are major issues when it comes
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: to mostly related to marital satisfaction, maternal depression. But then
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: even for the child later in life, like sleep issues
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: in childhood have shown to, you know, impact their performance
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: in school, their attention and things like that. And I've
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: worked with many families that you know whose kids, you know,
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: the doctor says, well, they may have you know, ADHD
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: or hyperactivity, but then really once the kid is sleeping,
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: a lot of those symptoms go away because really, really
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: chronically overtired kids look clingy and hyper and can't calm down,
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: and they're always going, going, going. So sleep is such
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: a core foundational need.
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And we see this in even in small trials,
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: Like one of my favorite trials to talk about for
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: parents is one in which they took kids elementary school
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: age kids and they had their parents either like put
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: them to bed at their normal time so they at
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: the normal amount of sleep, or put them to bed
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: an hour later for like a and they had a
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: trial where that at the end of the week they
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: would see like how did they perform on tests? And
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: even that week of one less hour of sleep every
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: night cause them to their parents said that they behaved worse,
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: their teachers said they behave worse. They did worse on
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: cognitive testing. And it gives you a sense of both
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: just how important an adequate amount of sleep is and
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: not just don't stay up all night, but actually even
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: an hour for a few days matters. It also tells
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: you that if you can fix this, if you can
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: get your kid to sleep more, if they're not sleeping enough,
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  Speaker 3: you may see returns right away.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: It's you don't have to have them sleep enough for
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: three years to get the benefits. You could literally get
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: the benefits in a week.
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: Yes, And this is one of the questions that I
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: ask parents after they take my sleep course. I asked them,
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  Speaker 4: what is one of the most unexpected benefits of having
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: a well rested kid? And it's one of two things.
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  Speaker 4: Either comes up.
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  Speaker 1: It's like.
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  Speaker 4: It's that either the child, they see such a change
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: in the child's behavior, or they're reported on like at school,
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: like the teacher's like, oh my gosh, like we're not
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: having any trouble with him sitting still, or any trouble
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  Speaker 4: with listening or hitting, like things like that really can
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  Speaker 4: resolve very quickly. And then the other thing people say
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: is that their child is so proud of themselves. When
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: you actually set up some structure so the child knows
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  Speaker 4: and has a good understanding of, like the expectations and
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: like the rules around sleep, it allows kids to feel
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: so proud of themselves. And then a lot of times
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: I also hear that parents feel more like connected to
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: their kids because so often there is so much drama
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: between the parent and the child. It really feels like
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: a you versus them when it comes to sleep problems,
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  Speaker 4: like if your kid refuses to go to bed or
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: is waking up all night. You know that usually isn't
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: great for that parent child.
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  Speaker 3: Interaction as part of the day.
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  Speaker 1: I think that's not good times right there. You know,
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  Speaker 1: I call it. I call it mean mommy, mean dad.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: It's like, we don't that's not who we want to
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  Speaker 4: be at eight nine o'clock at night, two in the morning,
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  Speaker 4: But oftentimes that's what happens. And so it really can
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: help to really bond parent and child together, which is
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: kind of like the opposite of what people think is
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: going to happen when they fix sleep.
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so let's talk. Let's talk about this about fixing
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: the sleep, and particularly about this age, this older age.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: Because I talked a lot in cribsheet, I talked online,
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: I took a lot about sleep training, and we're talking
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: about babies. What we in some ways that's it's very
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: well defined and in some ways very tractable, which is
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: different from saying it's easy. But with a baby, the
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: advice of you know, put them down in their crib
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: and let them cry, and we can talk about how
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: that's that's not bad for them, But just in terms
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: of practically implementing, it's hard in the sense that it
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: is hard to experience, but it's not hard in the
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: sense that you can explain to someone, do this, the
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: baby can't leave the crib.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: You just do it, and it's just tracked. It's easy
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: to explain to somebody. When we get to older kids,
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: your kid is playing more of a role in pushing back.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: That strikes me as the most challenging piece of what
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: we would refer to as sleep training or sleep coaching
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: in the older age group that you can't just say
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: do this and then here is how it will work
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: that there's a third person effectively in the conversation in
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: a way that there's just not with a baby. So
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: with that jumping off point, what happens that causes people
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: to call you is basically, why are people calling you?
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: Well, if you want me to just run through what
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: different scenarios look like, we could be here all day.
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: But no, you're right, I mean, in some ways, it's
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: just really different with older kids, and like it does
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: feel more challenging because you're right, with a baby, it's
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: really all about getting the timing right, getting the schedule,
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: the naps and stuff like that, and then you just
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: put them in the crib and they can't go anywhere.
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: But with an older kid, once they're out of the
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: crib and they're free to roam, it's kind of like
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: the perfect intersection of you know, this this freedom, but
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: also this little person who's like let's say three, four
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: or five years old, who is really you know, coming
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: into this age where they want control of things. They
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: feel like they're a big kid, you know, and they
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: want some more control of what's going on in their life.
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: They want some say in things they want to feel heard.
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: So there's a lot going on there developmentally, which so
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: when you say it's harder, it is harder because your
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: kid can say heartbreaking things and make you feel guilty
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: and cry and and they're just so much more verbal,
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: and they're saying things like I'm scared of this or
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: I have to go partty, and you're like, well are
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: you scared?
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Like do you have to go party for the eighty nine?
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: I'm thirsty? Do I'm so thirsty?
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: Hydration is so important, it's sotant important.
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, no one's ever more thirsty than like
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: a four year old at eight.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: Pm, Like person, they're in the desert for free bedtime desert.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're starving. You know they're starving.
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: But you know then the parents like they didn't need
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: that great at dinner, Like they're kind of in a
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: picky face. Maybe they are hungry. So it does feel
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: really confusing, So it makes it makes sense. It's kind
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: of the perfect storm of all these things like coming
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: into play. So the first thing that I always say
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: to parents is, yes, it's a little bit more difficult
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: in that way, but.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Also I feel like in a lot.
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: Of ways it can be easier, and parents are surprised
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: by this because once they like learn to understand where
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: their kid is at developmentally, and you learn how to
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: use it to your advantage instead of like fighting against
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: it and trying to control your kid, if you learn
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: how to kind of work with them, then it can
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: actually make the process a little bit easier. And like
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: I was saying before, sometimes you can set it up.
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: If you set up in the right way, the kid
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: actually feels proud of themselves. But the first step is
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: really knowing who you're dealing with.
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that wrecking is a very key
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: step here. The thing that I think people find the
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: hardest is your kid complaining, complaining, but your kid being
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: able to verbalize things which if they came out of
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: the mouth of another adult would seem very reasonable, right,
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: And it echoes from me so much of what's hard
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: about disciplining and behavior modification in this age, and even discipline,
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: but just how we interact with our kids. That if
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: my spouse said, you know, we're really thirsty, I'm mean again,
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: another drink of water before bed, I wouldn't be like, no,
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: you're not, like just get in the bed, you know,
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: or like I want to have a snack. I wouldn't
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: be like, look, I'm sorry, you had enough dinner. You know,
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: he would not react well or I would not react
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: well as a person who consistently snacks immediately before bad,
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: I would say, you know, you don't understand I really
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: am hungry. And our kids are not adults, which is
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: a constant, constant recognition that we are having.
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: Our kids are you know, like I like to remind
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: parents too. You know, you are the parent, Like you
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: have to provide the structure and the boundaries that are
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: going to work for you and your family. And that
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: can look different. There's no right or wrong. It can
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: look different for different families. But like the parents should
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: have the structure that works for them and works for
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: their kids. So, yes, our kids have underdeveloped brains, like
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: they they don't have impulse control, they don't have a
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: sense of time. Like that person is not should not
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: be running the show.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: That is not.
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: That is not a good a good way for your
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: family to operate, to be run by this this tiny
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: person who just wants what they want when they want
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: it and have no idea of consequences at all.
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So let's talk about solutions. Because a big piece
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: of the reason I wanted to have you on is
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: I think that it's easy to articulate, and this is
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: a lot of what I do with parent data general principles.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Like a general principle is that you should have a
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: bedtime routine. A general principle about behavior changing kids is
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: that consistency is important. And those are things which are
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: true of sleep routines. They're also true of many other things.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: This is a place where people, I think really benefit
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: from quite a bit more scaffolding than can be given
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: by Here are three general principles. So you are doing
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: something quite specific, and I'd love you to just talk
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: a little bit about when someone comes to you with
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: this problem, what is the general approach you take without
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: giving away all your secrets.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, of course.
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: So the general approach is, I think the heart of
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: everything that I teach in the rest method that I've developed,
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: which is like specifically for these older kids, is what
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: we said at first, which is really knowing who you're
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: dealing with, understanding where your kid is at developmentally, so
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: that you can give them a chance to feel heard.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: And my program is focused on giving your kid a
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: sense of control. So I really like for parents to
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: understand that when you can make your child feel heard
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: and give them some sense of control, it goes a
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: long way to getting them to cooperate and going to
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: bed right. So this all really starts with the bedtime routine,
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: like you said, and the first thing that everybody needs
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: to be doing is every single person needs to be
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: putting their kid to bed earlier.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Let's just say that that's a general rule. I mean,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know what.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: Do you mean by say more of what you mean
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: by earlier?
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean I would just want to say out
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: there that I think everyone who has a three year
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: old thinks that their bedtime should be eight thirty. And
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: I don't know why that is, but so many families
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: I talk to kids are going to bed at eight
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: thirty nine o'clock.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's like.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: We think they're three and they're like big now and
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: they can go stay up late. Now, if your child
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: is under six years old, the goal is to have
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: them asleep by eight o'clock. And the younger the kid,
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: the younger the bedtime. So for a three year old
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: to go to bed at seven is not unheard of.
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: I understand there's family skiles work situations like that, But
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: just talking generally here, we want our kids to be
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: asleep by a three year old should definitely be asleep
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: by seven thirty.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: So putting your kids to bed.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: Earlier is key because what happens is kids get cranky,
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: kids get overtired, and then they get a second wind,
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: and then they're up until nine nine thirty and then
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: everything is like a disaster. So first hardcore tip, just
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: move bedtime fifteen minutes earlier tonight from wherever you are.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: That's like the best tip to take away from this
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: whole episode. But no, knowing where your kid is at
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: developmentally is step one, so that you can work with
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: them to set up a bedtime routine that they're going
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: to rebel less against, Like that's the goal. So really
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: talking to your kid about, Okay, what do you want
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: to do? What kind of things do you like to
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: do before bed? Have a brainstorming session with them, Try
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: to put some pieces of a routine together that the
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: routine does not need to be more than fifteen minutes.
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: I mean it can be short.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Ask your kid what they like to do, write it
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: out step by step.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: Have your kids say you know I want to brush
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: my teeth before I put my PJS on. Anything, to
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: give them a sense of control. I mean, you can
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: do that with a kid who's two and a half
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: years old, just so that they have a sense that
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: this is like their bedtime routine. Right, draw a little icons,
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: tape it on the wall. Let them be the be
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: in charge of bedtime. And then anything that you used
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: to stall, like if they're asking for water snacks, add
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: that in to the bedtime routine so that when they
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: don't need to ask for it at the end, or
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: if they do, you as a parent can say like
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: you already had that.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: You know, we did the snack, We're done.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: I think the second thing to understand too is a
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: lot of parents, and I'm sure you probably see this too, Emily,
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: is like they'll come to me and they just say like,
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: oh my gosh, my kid is like waking up every
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: night at two in the morning trying to crawl into
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: my bed.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: How do I make it stop? Yes, people do ask that, Okay.
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: Normal question, But my question back is, so then what happens.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: So this is the piece that I think parents don't
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: understand is that kids are such creatures of habit and
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: habits are formed by the kid behaving in one way
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: and then the parent reacting in a way to that
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: behavior that becomes the habit.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: So in most cases, I think what people miss sometimes
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: is that those habits can form very fast, very fast.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: One night, one night, one night, one one.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: Vacation, Yeah, one grandparent visit.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: What oh grandparents love them, love them, but love them,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: but love them.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: But yeah, yes, grandparents can be tough on sleep or
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: even if you're misaligned with your spouse. You know, and again,
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: none of these things are bad. We're just saying this
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: can happen, right, it can happen easily where you know
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: your kid all of a sudden gets up at two
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: in the morning and then you let them come sleep
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: with you because I don't know, this has never happened before,
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: and you're tired. Well, now that's that's your kid. That
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: could be their new expectation after one night. But so
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: the important piece is that parents understand that they like
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: it's very hard, it's not very hard. But the piece
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: is not how to make the kid stop waking up,
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: It's how are you parent responding.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: To those wake ups?
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: Because that is at the heart of why it continues Yeah.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: So you've got these sort of too almost these two pieces.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: So there's the there's the routine, there's kind of the
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: bedtime giving them control over what happens before they go
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: to bed, and then once they are in the bed
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: pretty much not reacting or thinking about a second piece,
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: which is do I how do I react when there
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: is a behavior that is coming out of the room
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: or coming into my bed or whatever it is.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's two pieces.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: It's it's understanding where your child is developmentally, giving them
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: some control part of that bedtime routine, and also parents
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: understanding that they play a very important role by with
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: their reactions and that's the only part that they can
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: really control is how they're reacting to things. So that's
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: what that's when we can change, right, And so it's
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: really important, especially when it comes to overnight wake ups
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: and just kids' quality of sleep.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: It all comes back to bedtime.
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: So you really want your child to be able to
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: fall asleep independently at bedtime, because how people fall asleep,
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: that's what they need to stay asleep. So like the
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: other night, I was asleep and I have a little
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: like like a little fragrance thing that's plugged into one
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: of the outlets, and I'm asleep and then all of
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: a sudden, I wake up. And I woke up because
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: the thing was blinking purple. It wasn't making a noise,
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: nothing happened, it was just I could sense there was
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: something different in my room.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: And so it's the same with kids. If you are
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: laying in.
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: Their bed until they're asleep, and then you're like army
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: crawling out and you know, hoping the door doesn't creak.
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: Your kid's gonna eventually at some point, and then I
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: wake up and realize that you're gone, and then they
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: need you to come back again because you've made yourself
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: like an integral part of their sleep process.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting because this is really very much in
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: we talk a lot about parenting styles sort of permissive, authoritarian.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is kind of right in this of
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: what we call authoritative parenting, where it's you're setting the boundaries,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: but also there's a component of I don't know, decision
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: making or negotiation that happens with the kids. But here
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: it's have the discussion upfront about what happens at the bedtime,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: but then ultimately the decision of you know, you stay
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: in your room overnight by yourself, and I'm going to
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: return you to the room if you don't. That's the
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: part that you set as the parent.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: Yes, I believe that because you know, when it comes
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: to something like sleep, which is such a foundational need
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: for our kids, I mean, it's a it's a health
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: concern if your child is not getting good sleep, and
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: so I think that is definitely a place or parents
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: need to feel their role as the leader of their
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: house to ensure that everybody gets good sleep. Right, So
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: the child needs to get good sleep, but also if
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: there's a sibling that's getting you know, disturbed because the
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: kid is up in the middle of the night, and
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: not to mention both the parents, you know, that's that
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: affects the health and the functioning of the entire family.
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: So I definitely, in that case view parents as the
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: ones who should be, you know, putting a plan together,
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: deciding for their family what's going to work best and
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: what those rules are going to be. And so I
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: like to think about analogy I use for boundaries as like,
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: parental boundaries are like the bumpers at the.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Bowling alley, you know.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: So like, so I mean, if your kid was just
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: bowling without them, they'd be in the gutter every time,
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: like right, like never getting where they need to.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: Go, not just your kid. But okay, fair enough, yea,
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: so you.
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: So you're the bumpers, but your kid can have some
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: control and some choices. They can weave around the around
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: the alley, but you got to help them get to
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: where they need to go, which is to bed.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: Implementing this for many people, changing habits is going to
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: require some things that we might view as more harsher
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: is not the word I'm looking for, but more authoritative parenting.
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: So it's great to have a bedtime routine, but the
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: reality is, if your kid is coming out every night
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: nine times before they fall asleep and expecting you to
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: be there when you say here's the bedtime routine. Now
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: you're in your bed by yourself and the door is closed,
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: they're going to come out again and you're going to
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: need to return them to their bed totally potentially many
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: times potentially.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: Yes, So there are many different ways to handle what
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: happens after the bedtime routine. So I love, like we
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: talked about giving your kids some control over bedtime, But
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: then if your kid is used to you staying in there.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: You do need to figure out a way to get
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: out of that.
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: If your goal is is for your child to be
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: sleeping independently through the night in their own room.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: If that is your goal, that doesn't have to be
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: your goal.
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: But if that's your goal, then your first step is
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: trying to get out of their room at bedtime. And
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: there are many ways to do that. There are many
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: ways to do that. You could have a rip the
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: band aid off approach and really get that started from
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: night one. You could have a much more gradual approach,
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: which can take a little bit longer but could be
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: just as effective, and really anything in between. Like it's
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: kind of like endlessly customizable based on people's parenting style,
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: your kid's kind of personality, stuff like that, And so
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: I like to teach families you know, if you're not
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: quite sure, you kind of start one way, but there
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: are signs that this isn't going to really work for
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: you and not be as effective, and it may be
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: time to switch to something else. I tell peoples all
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: the time, if we could convince your child, or use
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: any type of language to explain to your child how
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: importantly biz and why we need to do this and
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: here's what's going to happen, and then they would just
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: say sounds good, mommy, like see in the morning. Like
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: it's just that's not how it works. That's just not
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: how it works. But also it's important to remember that
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: kids are going to pick up on our emotions as parents, right,
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: and so this is a lot of times what's happening
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: in houses already, which is bedtime sucks. Parents know it
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: going into it. That's probably part of the reason why
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: bedtime becomes eight thirty because parents are like, oh, they're.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Playing, like let's just let's just wait a little.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: While, and then they're feeling the anxiety and the dread
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: and then they're like, okay, time to go for bed,
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: and they're like, you know, feeling all anxious, and the
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: kids pick up on that too. So I do think
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: that it's important for parents to remember that sleep is
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: instinctual to us as humans. By the time kids are
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: four or five months old, they and healthy. They have
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: the capacity to sleep through the night independently with about
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: needing a parent. So the things that happen between four
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: months old and five years old are really just habits
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: that are changeable. It doesn't mean it's going to be
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: easy in sunshine and roses for their first few days,
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: but it's changeable, and if it's important for your family,
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: then it's totally doable.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: More parent data, including your own questions and a story
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: about how I accidentally caffeinated my kid and kept her
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: up all night after the break. I have some specific
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: questions from people that I want to ask you, But
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: first I want to ask about pushback, because when I
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: talk about sleep training on the internet, people aren't always
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: pleased to hear it, and I think gives a lot
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: of different versions of that of that pushback, And one
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: I you know, what I talk a lot about is
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: the kind of is it damaging for your kid to
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: damaging for your attachment. I think the data there is
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: completely does not support that that concern. But there's a
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: version of this which says something almost lighter touch than that,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: which is, you know, why why can't we all just
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: sleep in the bed together? And you know, why why
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: do we need kids to sleep in their own room?
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: And this isn't the natural approach this. I'm curious if
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: you get that kind of curious, if you get that
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: kind of pushback, Oh gosh.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I get I get it all. I
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: get it all as you can imagine. Yeah, no, I
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: hear all of that.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: And that's why I try to reinforce, like, I am
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: not here to tell anybody what is right or wrong.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: That is not my job. I don't want that job.
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: I'm not here to say this is the right way
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: to do things, this is the wrong way to do things,
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: You're wrong. I'm here to say, hey, if this isn't
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: working for your family, if I mean the stories that
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: I hear are crazy, I mean I hear that for years,
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: people play what I call musical beds, which is parents
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: are rotating around the house. They say that they don't
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: even when they open their eyes in the morning, they
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: don't even know where they're going to be.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Are they going to be in their own room?
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: Are they going to be in this kid's room, this
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: kid's room with the baby on the couch, Like they
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: don't even know where they're going to be.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: And this has gone on.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: For years, and so if that is not working for
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: your family, or if you just don't want your child
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: to sleep in your bed, or if your child sleeps
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: in your bed like a lunatic because kids move around
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: so much, if they sleep horizontally and they're kicking you
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: in the face all night, or if I hear this
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: a lot too, parents are like, I don't mind if
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: my child.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Sleeps with me, but they don't sleep.
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: They stay up all night and they're trying to talk
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: to me, and it doesn't seem like they're sleeping well,
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: even in the parents' bed. So if you're in a
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: situation that isn't working for you as the parent, or
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: you can tell that your kid is not getting enough sleep, Like,
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: all I'm here to say is like, I can help.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: You with that.
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: There are solutions, but I'm not here to say don't
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: ever co sleep. That is a horrible way to raise
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: your shouldern no, do whatever works for your family.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: If you need help, I'm here.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. Okay, I have a couple of
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: specific questions. I'm just curious. I'm curious what you will say. So,
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: if a kid is sleepwalking, Yeah, how do you think
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: about that?
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: So sleepwalking?
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: So I have a my oldest daughter was a sleepwalker,
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: so I've got experience with this. So when it comes
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: to sleepwalking, which is kind of similar to not the
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: same thing, but similar to night terrors in the same way,
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: that it's kind of this parasomnia. The rule is to
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: make sure that kids are safe, but don't try to
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: wake them up. So what I actually did with my
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: daughter a couple of things you can do. If they're younger,
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: you would definitely probably want to consider a baby gait
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: or some way to secure their door so they can't
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: get out in room around the house. With older kids,
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: you could hang a bell on their door so that
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: you might be awakened. What I actually did with my daughter,
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: because this went on until she was like maybe ten
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: or eleven, is I got or off of Amazon, one
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: of those motion detectors, So you put the little motion
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: detector in the hallway beside her room, and.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Then I put the chime.
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: I plugged it in in my room so it would chime,
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: it would like make a noise whenever she was like
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: on the move, just so I can make sure to
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: kind of guide her back to bed.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: But that's that's the best thing you can do in
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: that situation. But yeah, they're not awake.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: They're not awake, really awake in the meaningful. It's not
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: like a nightmare.
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: No, no, no, it's not like a nightmare at all.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: They are not awake. So you just keep them safe,
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: get them back to bed. They won't remember it in
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: the morning, and they outgrow it by the time they're twelve.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Usually before that.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: A lot of people ask about using melatonin for sleep.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I am not a fan of parents using melatonin
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: for sleep unless it is prescribed by a doctor or
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: there is a medical necessity, like sometimes kids who have
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: special needs, that would be something that would be prescribed.
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: But as I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong,
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: But I don't think there is any data to show
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: that giving kids over the counter melatonin is safe. In fact,
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: there's been many studies that have shown that the amount
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: of melatonin in the over the counter drugs is like
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: not necessarily accurate. It could be way less, it could
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: be way more.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think the data supports the use for
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: jet lag, and it supports the use for some more
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: data on ADHD. But as a give your kid every night,
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: there are probably other solutions you should look for.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: Well, And I, you know, I kind of take a
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: step back and look at this is more of a
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: global global problem because I do feel like we're in this,
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: you know, as a society, we're so into instant gratification right,
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: and we've got everything at our fingertips Amazon, like if
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: it's not here tomorrow, like.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: What the hell?
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: Just we're so used to that, and so I think
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: it does kind of feel it can feel like a
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: like a magic pill in some ways. But you know,
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: I've got my kids are older, and I've got kids
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: that come to spend the night and they have to
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: have their gummy like they have to have and I'm
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: talking about kids who are like ten plus years old.
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: So I would definitely consider if that's something that you
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: want your child to be to be needing kind of
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: in the long run. But otherwise, I think the majority
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: of sleep issues that families have our behavioral and can
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: be solved with really parents being empowered with new tools.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: So what about can we talk about the grandparents a
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: little bit because I think this is you know, I've say,
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: I do all the hard work to get my kid
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: into the right bedtimer team works well. And then we
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: traveled to this new environment or somebody else's there even
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: in the same environment, and they don't implement this. And
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: I will tell you once we are quite strict with
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: our kids. And once we left my in laws to
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: put them to bed. I mean, we have done it
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: more times than this, but there was a particular time
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: when we left them and I love them very much,
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: but my son convinced my father in law that it
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: was necessary to leave the door to his room open
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: at night because otherwise he was afraid. And not only
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: did that result in a complete disaster that night, but
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: it took several days to get back from that experience. Yep,
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: should I have done?
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: This is a really common situation.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: I think, probably tougher when it happened at your own house,
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: but certainly when people are traveling.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: What I tell families is, you know, if the.
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: Kids are staying with grandparents or even if they're sleeping,
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: you know, in a new place, and maybe you're sharing
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: a house with other people and you end up having
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: to go sleep with your kids or whatever, tell your
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: kids this is just happening because we're here. This is
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: a special situation. This is how we sleep at grandma's house.
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: This is you know, this is how we do things
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: when we're here. If it happens at your own house,
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: I would definitely try Whoever is staying with your kids
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: or putting your kids to bed, really try to be
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: clear with them about what the rules are, and then
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: you could, you know, you could have potentially let your
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: son know that that could be a special thing that
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: he just does with Grandpa. But if you said it
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: was even a disaster that night, yes, it.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: Didn't work because the thing is he can't go to
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: sleep with the door open. Well, of course, and so
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: when we got home quite late, he was still awake
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: and arguing about the door.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Uh huh.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, this was a while ago, but I still remember.
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: It, and yeah, so in that case, feelings, yes, I
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: can see you still remember it very clearly. Yeah, so
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: in that case, I would say that, you know, I
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: would say, you know, Grandpa made a mistake. We don't
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: sleep with our doors open, and try to explain to him.
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: I don't know how old he was, but if he
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: could have understood that, he didn't get great sleep that night,
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: he didn't feel very good the next day. But also,
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: you can lean into using rewards to help either jumpstart
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: new behaviors or get things back on track. I know
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of like no reward movement going on,
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: but I know there's anything wrong with especially in a
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: situation like yours, where hey, we're going to go back
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: to closing our door, you know, reassure there's something to
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: be scared of.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: He stlept this way his whole life.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: And then just surprise him with a little something in
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: the morning, like just a little treat or even just
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: praise to let them know that you're so excited that
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: things are back on track.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I will say one last thing about as
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: your kids get bigger, So you said, you know, it's
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: it would be great if we could explain he said earlier.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: It would be great if you could explain to our
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: kids that sleep is so important that then they would say, oh,
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: thank you so much, mommy, and now I'm going to
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: going to go to bed.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: I think that strategy is underused with older kids. So
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: certainly with a three year old you're out of luck
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: on that strategy. But if you have a ten, eleven,
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: you know, twelve year old, where you start getting into
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: a different problem with sleep, which is that they maybe
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: have more control over there's more things to do. They
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: have potentially more control over their bedtime than they do
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: when they're when they're little. Yea, that is a place
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: where I think we can actually help them understand their
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: own sleep value, and how did you feel today? You
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: were up late. I mean, the best thing that ever
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: happened to sleep in my house was the time that
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: I accidentally gave my daughter a heavily caffeinated tea at
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: four o'clock in the afternoon, like we didn't know it
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: was caffeine. It was just like an accident. And she
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: was up until I think she was maybe she was
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: like nine or ten, and she was up until like
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: one point thirty in the morning and just couldn't go
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: to sleep. And the next day she felt terrible and
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: there was a speed test in math and she did
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: very poorly on it. And she's still now, she's thirteen.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: She would bring if you asked her why is sleep important?
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: She would like she would tell you one time, I'm
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: messed up and gave me this caffein in tea and
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: it was one hundred percent of her fault. And it
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: really was so crucial for her to see that feedback.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: Even I mean, of course I wish I hadn't given it.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: I guess was actually I don't really because it was
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: such a It was so it was so good for
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: that and now you know, we have a lot of
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: those conversations I do think you can bring your kids
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: into that as they get big.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: Yes, of course, totally. And I think in that situation
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: it was probably good thing that it was. It was
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: your fault. I don't do a good learning experience. But no,
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: I've had so my kids. I've got a thirteen year
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: old also and an eleven year old, and we've had
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: those same discussions when they've gone to a sumber party,
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: our birthday party, where they've stayed up all night and
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: they come home and they're trash, you know, and it's
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: just like wow, And so the whole next day, I'm like,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: how are you feeling like? You know, it's after lunch now, gosh,
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: you need to take a nap, like in really cranky today,
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: you know. Being able to point those things out and
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: help them realize that I really don't feel good.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, Which is different from saying you shouldn't go
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: to a slumber party, but just like you know, that's
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: recognizing that in general, sleep hygen is sleep hygiene is important.
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: Yes, recognizing how you feel when you are exhausted and
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: then it doesn't feel great.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: Okay, Jessicain, So leave us with some closing words of
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: wisdom about putting these older kids to.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: Sleep, I think the only thing and I mean I
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: think we did kind of touch on this, but I
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: think you know, what parents have to understand when their
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: kids are older is that our kids want to do
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: the right thing, like they want to make us happy,
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: Like that's just part of the nature of being a kid.
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: And so a lot of times we as parents miss
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: the opportunity to be really clear about what our expectations are, like,
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: what that looks like, like what we really want specifically
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: in an age appropriate way for the child. So I
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: think when you can lean into that and then you
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: can use your praise to encourage your child's good behavior,
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: that goes a long way. Because I talk a lot
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: about this to parents too, which is like attention is attention,
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: whether it's good attention you're doing a great job, buddy,
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: tell me about your day, you know, or negative attention,
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: which is no stop, I said, go to bed, do
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: this right now, to carry you back to your room.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: That's all attention. And so what happens at nighttime is
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: we spend a lot of time pouring our negative attention
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: on our kids, and that kind of keeps those behaviors
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: going and going, going, it's like watering plants, like those
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: are the seeds, we're watering them. So if we can
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: switch it up and give our kids an idea of
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: what we're looking for, what to expect and what is
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: good behavior, and then we really try to focus on
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: praising that even and I say tell parents, like you
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: should praise them it's like feel dumb, like be like,
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: great job brushing that tooth, Like great job keeping that
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: first pair of PJS on, you know whatever it is
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: like that your kid's been struggling with. If you can
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: just praise the heck out of something tiny and focus
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: on that and try to like ignore the bad stuff,
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: then you'll start to see more of the good stuff.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Love it.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: Tell people where they can find you.
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: So best place to find me is on Instagram at
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: Awesome Little Sleepers or my website Awesome Little Sleepers dot com.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: And I also have.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: A free Toddler Sleep masterclass that people can take if
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: they want to learn more about my rest method, and
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: they can find that at Toddlersleepmasterclass dot com.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: Amazing, And I want to shout out Amy schumercher connecting us.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: Thank you Amy, if you're listening, yes, yes, thank you Amy.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: All right. Thank you for being here. Jessica was such
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: a treat and I think people will find this extremely useful.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: Thanks, it was great talking to you.
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: Parent Data is produced by Tamar Avishai with support from
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: the parent Data team and pix. If you have thoughts
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: on this episode, please join the conversation on my Instagram
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• 43:53
  Speaker 3: make better, more informed parenting decisions. For example, last year,
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: I wrote an article that stated point blank the your
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: child isn't getting enough sleep called appropriately your child is
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: not getting enough sleep? What the study said and what
• 44:07
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• 44:09
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• 44:26
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  Speaker 3: write Penelope right, well, we'll see you next.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: Time you have to go. I'm a big own now